 Okay, we're back. We're live at three o'clock in the afternoon on a given Monday here on Think Tech and we're doing community matters. We're talking about use cases for electric cars as opposed to or in addition to or in contra distinction to fuel cell cars that is hydrogen, okay? And we have Tim Hamhunt who's a lawyer and who is the CEO principal of Hawaii Renewable Solutions, LLC. And he's a co-founder of Think Big and Big stands for Big Island Green. He's a board member of the Hawaii EV Association and he's the author of a book, Solar Why Our Energy Future Is So Bright, okay? Sort of an energy guru on the Big Island. They have a lot of those on the Big Island. It really means something. And then we have Noel Morin. Morin, if I get that right. And he is also involved in the Hawaii EV Association. He's the executive director of the Hawaii EV Association. Welcome to the show, gentlemen. Thank you for having us. So when I think of the Big Island, I think of solar, I think of renewables, I think of clean. I think of the first one to get to 100%. I think of, I hadn't thought about EVs just yet. And today I will be thinking about EVs. You asked me why I don't think about EVs, the Big Island. And the answer is, are you ready? Are you sitting down? It's range anxiety, that's why. Because the Big Island has greater distances than any other island. And so I'd be more concerned about that. So, Tam, you wanna make an Aristotelian logic case in favor, we like doing that here on Think Big, in favor of electric vehicles, and maybe not so much for hydrogen vehicles. What's the case you would make, Tam? Yeah, well, just a quick intro. We are promoting at Hawaii EV a statewide approach to more sustainable and efficient transportation. And so part of that process for us is thinking about the best ways to achieve that goal. And we've been following developments now for years in battery electric and fuel cell electric. And the basic issue we're kind of raising now is do we wanna go down the hydrogen fuel cell route when we have battery electrics already here with dozens of models available, already highly efficient, becoming more affordable when in particular, battery electrics are far more efficient than fuel cell electrics is about a three X difference. That's a really big difference. And we're basically trying to kind of raise the question, what are the appropriate use cases for each kind of vehicle when should we focus on battery electric versus fuel cell electric? What's a use case? Use case is, for example, in light duty transportation, regular car that you and I would buy to get around. What's the best use case? What's the best technology for that particular use case? We're arguing based on a lot of data now that battery electrics are much more appropriate in that use case whereas, for example, perhaps in some heavy duty applications, maybe of mass transit, maybe definitely air travel, maybe long-term seasonal storage, maybe hydrogen is a better use case or better technology for that use case. You say maybe, but that's the way it's shaking out right now, isn't it? Well, yes and no. It is definitely a push still for FCEVs, fuel cell electric vehicles, for light duty transportation by some folks. And we are suggesting at Hawaii EV now that we probably know enough at this point to suggest that battery electrics are better for that use case. And Noel, please chime in. Yeah, I'd just like to add that I put on my climate action hat here. It's one of my primary motivators for being involved in efforts like this. And that is we need to figure out the most efficient way to decarbonize, right? To wean ourselves away from fossil fuels so that we can not only attain the emission goals that we have set forth for us or kids for the planet, but also to enable energy independence from all this fossil fuels that we're sorely dependent on. So the point is the situation of the applications that allow us to rapidly achieve those goals. And if there are solutions already or if there's a solution or an application for battery versus fuel cell, we focus the attention there so that we're not too distracted. We're not too, you know, the investment which is limited, the energy which is limited and be focused on the solutions that allow for rapid time to market, right? The quickest implementation. So, and I just maybe use cases is a technical term. I think maybe another word we can use is application. You know, what applications are meaningful for battery, you know, electric versus or fuel cell electric. So these are, as mentioned by TAM, you know, flight, aviation, you know, trans-specific freight and even land freight, really heavy, you know, vehicles. These are ideal applications for hydrogen in our view. So the question is, you know, given all of the things we need to do and the limited investment, you know, funds that we have and limited energy as well, you know, where do you focus the attention so that we can get all of this stuff done as quickly as possible? Let me add one more point there real quick. TAM, would you accept Noel's amendment to the motion? I would, I would. He wants to call it an application instead of a use, would you accept that? That's perfect, yeah, that's much more accessible. Let me add too, I think a good way of understanding this distinction is if you have a given amount of green electricity, let's say from wind power or geothermal or solar, you can travel three times as far not a matter of electricity in a battery electric car as you can in a fuel cell electric car when you consider all of the lost power through that entire process of grading green hydrogen and then converting it back into electricity in the fuel cell. There's not a small difference. It's a really big difference. And this scenario, you really does weigh heavily in favor of battery electrics for in particular light duty transportation. Well, if that's so, why use a fuel cell at all? You were suggesting, and I mentioned is that we're already down the road on buses and trucks and what have you, larger vehicles. But why, if that's so, why don't we just use battery electric for everything and forget about fuel cell? Well, a couple of reasons. First, for regular cars, we can't deny of course that fueling, quote unquote, a fuel cell vehicle is a lot faster. It does currently take hours to charge a battery electric. That's not a big deal if you have charging at home. You simply plug it in like you do your iPhone overnight. It's not a big deal, but it definitely is better to have five, 10 minute fueling if you can. But that said, there's definitely a lot of inertia in some quarters for hydrogen solutions based on other benefits of hydrogen. And simply the market has kind of overtaken the use case for the applications for hydrogen and fuel cell vehicles, whereas it's really pretty clear if you look at the market nowadays, the market has chosen battery electrics for most use cases, most applications. We're kind of trying to highlight that. We don't go down in particular in a big round, a path toward an undue focus on hydrogen. I'd like to add. No, let me ask you this. I know you wanna make a point, but let me ask you this. Why can't the farmers and the ranchers be friends? Why can't we have them both, in a diverse portfolio of renewable fuel cars? Why can't we do both? Yeah, so I'll respond to that and also just add to what Tam had just described in terms in response to your question earlier. The proper application, ideal application for the fuel cell electric vehicle, they are electric vehicles, are those situations where gross weight, gross vehicle weight is critical and where lift is required, right? So having a battery pack on an airplane that will go from Honolulu to the West Coast is technically not feasible at this point in time because just the weight of the batteries will not facilitate that. One could argue something similar for ocean freight. With ocean freight, you've got a lot of tonnage that you're going to be transporting and the lighter the vehicle, the better. And to some extent, the same can be said for freight, especially on the mainland where you have these tractor trailers that have to go across country with loads of containers, right? In situations like that, the total weight of the vehicle is going to impact the range and there are expectations of performance, being able to take your load from point A to point B within a certain amount of time. So I think that vehicle weight, that consideration is an important one as it relates to transportation or applications as far as hydrogen is concerned. Now, let's talk about passenger vehicles. Can they coexist? Yes, they can coexist and we see attempts at that in places like markets like California. The challenge is, again, okay, on a practical standpoint, if you have limited resources in terms of, let's say the government has limited resources in terms of how they will dispense charging fueling stations across the islands, you'd be able to support both use cases, both applications you'll sell and you would have an immense expense, right? These commercial hydrogen fueling stations that combine all the electrolysis and all that required technology and run one to two million dollars or so based on the information we've gathered. A DC fast charger, which is required for fast charging of electric cars will run 100 to $150,000. I mean, they're not cheap. So the question is, do you want to invest in all of this infrastructure to be able to support both types of electric vehicles? When on one hand, you have adequate manufacturer support, the BEVs, the battery electric vehicles, you see, I mean, constant evolution and innovation. So manufacturers are stepping up with their EVs. You don't see that with the hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. You see that with Toyota, you see that with Hyundai, but not much else. So there's this practical question or issue, which is given limited resources, given limited time to market, the need to decarbonize rapidly, where would you put your eggs, right? And that's where I think the analysis needs to take into account. Just available of availability of the product, the feasibility of building the infrastructure in an affordable way, the availability of cheap renewable energy because the grid energy for electrolysis just doesn't make sense. It's just going to be way, way too expensive. You need geothermal up and running. You need electricity that is south of 10 cents. There's a lot of that that still needs to be done. And the question is, do you have the time? We have less than a decade to affect climate action that'll make a difference. And we just don't have the time to try to do everything. Anyway, that's my perspective. Well, you made some very good points just now and well. And it makes me want to ask, are you an engineer, a scientist, an energy professional? What's your background? I am a, so my background is technology. I used to work for Bay Area Company eBay. I was in their technology group. And I would say that my background is primarily around problem solving, but being able to understand root cause, understand what's the causation for whatever the issue is we're trying to address. And then coming up with different options, different solutions, testing those and arriving at the most cost-effective, most efficient approach. So that's my background. I'm not an engineer. My background isn't in solar, like TAM or building electric cars, but I have a big passion for solving the climate crisis. And it's forced me to look into all these different nooks and cranes. It shows. So you guys are associated, as I mentioned before, with a number of renewable organizations. And you're also not only passionate, but you're advocates for electric vehicles. And of course, in order to get a community to adopt electric vehicles, both in having people purchase them and in developing the infrastructure to support them, those two are obviously linked. You guys must be involved in advocating for certain community steps, community actions in order to incentivize people to buy, use, you know, the cars and the infrastructure. So with all these organizations I mentioned, and what are you actually doing to incentivize people to buy, use and support electric vehicles? Well, we have two kind of program areas at Hawaii EV. One is on public outreach and education. And as Noel mentioned earlier, we do a lot of public events, including rides, trying out different EVs, getting EV owners together to talk about what their experiences are, various meet and greets, putting out webinars. We hold an EV 101 webinar once a year with various experts and legislators. And then the second major program area for us is working on policy, which means basically trying to pass better policies and laws and working with the legislators to actually flesh out, you know, the best ideas for whatever moment and time we're looking at. And we're doing it this year. We have a big effort to create a list of recommendations for new bills in an upcoming session. So we're doing quite a bit, which, you know, for what is still a pretty new organization, we're only been around for now, I guess a year and a half. So we feel pretty good over the air. I'm always sorry when I ask a question like what bills are you introducing? Because then we don't have enough time to finish the conversation. But let me ask you the primary ones or grouping them in terms of functionality, what kinds of bills are you introducing and supporting? Well, we make recommendations. We're not going to introduce bills per se. We haven't finished that process internally. I'll just share one idea with you, which is, you know, top of our list currently, which probably will make the final cut. And this is adopting in some form, what's called a zero emission vehicle mandate, which is basically, you know, what the California did us some time ago and requires a ratcheting standard for zero emission vehicle purchases by different types of entities. And what those numbers should be in what timeframe is the debate. Okay, go ahead, go ahead now. Jade, I'd also like to just highlight something which is what white electric vehicle association embraces. So there's the electrification of transportation. So let's convert all the gas cars, diesel cars into more efficient electric vehicles. Another dimension is reducing vehicle miles traveled. And that is to figure out ways to reduce the need for vehicles like cars, you know, passenger cars, personal cars. And there are many different things. They are mass transit, shared mobility, micro mobility, you know, giving the opportunity for people to be able to get to where they need to without necessarily needing to buy a car and use a car. So VMT reduction is very, very important. And I think we're not going to be able to achieve our decarbonization goals. If all we say is let's convert the 1 million plus cars from gas over to electric, right? It's not a very feasible strategy. And then the last thing is circularity. There's this brewing an important conversation around what to do with solar panels. What to do with batteries that have expired their usefulness in a car, for example. So trying to pave a way for things like that to ultimately be addressed effectively here. And that could be building facilities here that allow for batteries and cars to be repostured for stationary storage. Having those batteries, raw materials recycled ultimately into new materials, right? Or maybe shipped to the mainland for processing. So that's the third leg of what we're trying to do. So electrify, reduce the need for cars or the cars that must exist, make them as sufficient as possible. And then let's also be mindful of what happens at the tail end of this. Let's make sure that we don't have a mess at the end of this journey that we're on right now. So I just wanted to highlight that. And from a legislative standpoint, based on what we've supported in the past, there's the, just as Hamid mentioned, that's one dimension, right? Which is high level goal statements that force the market to act a certain way. Another dimension would be finding ways to expand infrastructure. So have new construction be EV or renewable energy ready as an example. So there's the infrastructure piece. And then there's also another piece which is I think really important for Hawaii. And that is being mindful of social equity. So if we put together another, this was done back in 2011, another rebate for state rebate for EVs, we need to make sure that low middle income folks will benefit most from programs like that so that we can get more and more, make it more affordable for people who can't afford to buy a car, right? To be able to get behind the wheel. And the same thing goes with public charging infrastructure. Many of the people who are driving EVs now have the luxury of a garage, have the ability to plug in when they get in just like Hamid had mentioned. But what about the others who live in apartments, who live in condos, who are renters, and they don't have the luxury of getting a charge at home? They need to be able to find those fast chargers, those chargers in the public, and they need to be reliable, and they need to be everywhere. So that would be the other dimension. It's not a very specific bill to answer your question, but it gives you an idea of where we're at when we talk policy. Well, a rebate would be very specific, dollars and cents. A rebate from the legislature, such as the rebate or tax credit, whatever it was a few years ago, which they let it expire. You know, when government makes an incentive like that, they're giving you a big message. They're saying, we like this particular conduct. We want to incentivize it. And when they withdraw it, as they did in the case of the electric car tax credit or rebate, whatever it was, they're giving you a like message. We don't like it so much. We don't think it's important. So, and I think it's critical myself. I wonder how you guys feel about it. I think it's critical. We get back to that. And there's social justice in that because it makes the car cheaper for everyone, including people who don't have a lot of money. And it was back when, you know, working that way. But we're now in a place where we don't have that. Pam, what are you going to do about that? Yeah, well, it's a great point, Jay, we agree 100% on that. And as an example, California just passed two major funding packages, which include different kinds of rebates and other incentives that total $3 billion. Now, clearly they are a much larger population than we are. They're more than 20 times bigger than Hawaii's population. But it really shows what we should be doing here in Hawaii. We currently have no rebates and no incentives in Hawaii for this really needed transition. Like you said, they were in place before, but they've expired. It's really high time for them to be brought back and really beat up. Yeah, nothing against auto dealers, but auto dealers do not go out of their way to sell electric vehicles. All things equal, they would probably, most of them, rather sell fossil vehicles. And so in which nature really has to speak on that. And for my money, if you see on television, you see these ads for, you buy the car on the web and a day or two later, it is delivered to your home and somebody shows you how to use it. You never have to go through the troubled experience of dealing with a car salesman for hours at a time, which is a pain that none of us should have to do anyway. So my question is, why can't we develop a system of purchase and delivery that makes it easier, more predictable and quicker? Why can't we do that, Noel? Well, let me just say that it is happening, number one. It's just that it's a model that is not very popular, but it's that perception or that mindset is changing. So Tesla started, I believe they started out there. Well, their business model is essentially that. They have no dealerships, everything's online. You order the car, you customize it, it gets delivered to you. And now we have other automakers that have started to do the same. With the Ford Electric 150, orders can be placed online. The Rivian is done the same way. So I think that as the market starts to experience these different ways of doing things and the efficiencies associated with it, it's going to influence consumer demand, expectation for that type of experience. And that's ultimately going to change the business model for the manufacturers, the dealers that have been doing this way, having this way of doing business forever. So the positive thing is it's already happening. And it's also influencing the legacy dealers and manufacturers. Does the EV association encourage this? Does the EV association give recommendations? Does the EV association have links on its website to allow me to go to an online dealer in bioelectric car that fast with an imprimatur that the EV association likes this? That's actually a great idea. It hasn't been implemented yet. One of the challenges that we have is to ensure that there's fairness and equity. So if we were to go down the path of creating a page that will make recommendations, we want to make sure that we can keep that updated. It is what we have on the contrary, one of the things that we've started to do, which is more generic, is we've started to point people to used vehicles, to pre-owned vehicles, which represents an immense value for many consumers here. There are a lot of cars that are coming off leases, that are coming out that are being traded in, and these cars still have quite a bit of life in them, a warranties, et cetera. So we advertise that, but we haven't gone to the point of making very specific recommendations. We point people to other websites that already do that. Okay, well, I hope it's in the future somewhere. Tim, as a lawyer, you'll appreciate my suggestion. My suggestion, which I have suggested to a number of people, but it really hasn't happened, is that we could incentivize entrepreneurs to build charging station facilities. However we do it, wherever they choose to do it, whatever the market is best, why don't we do that? Right now, recently, the PUC approved a Hawaiian Electric initiative to install a substantial number of charging stations, some quick, some not so quick, but hundreds all together around mostly Oahu, I think, and that will be funded through rate payer contributions, and that will be, that will not involve independent external entrepreneurs. But if I made a governmental incentive of some kind, maybe a tax holiday, who knows what, to entrepreneurs who say that they will build infrastructure for electric vehicles, I know that that would proliferate the number way beyond what you might imagine even the utility could do. What do you think of that idea? And what would you add in terms of making it feasible? Yeah, well, a couple of responses. First, incentives are appropriate in this case because the market is still fairly nascent and the charging, EV charging model for making money is still a bit tricky because it's kind of chicken and egg. You don't have enough people with EVs because you often don't have enough charging. You don't have enough charging to make money with EV charging. So this is a really good example of what we call a market failure is where policy really can come in and help. I like you said, writing some incentives. That said, the HECO model is primarily for what they call make readies, which is building out the infrastructure and install the charger. They then own the infrastructure. They make money off the infrastructure. It's still open in many cases to third parties coming in and actually installing the charger, make money off the charger. For example, on the big, a lot of fast chargers are owned by green lots and they make the money off the charging even though the utility has to build up the infrastructure and make money off the infrastructure. It's currently kind of a mixed model. We certainly though do see a need for a lot more chargers on the big island and elsewhere. Oahu of course has far more population than we do. We're about, I think 170, now one fifth of the population of Oahu. Oahu has shorter distances though. The big island has a greater risk of range anxiety. Exactly. And one thing we're kind of batting around internally is how many charges you should have each location. I'm an advocate of three to four fast charges at each location. So basically future proof those charging stations for the next decade and that gives people range confidence when you see that many chargers and you know you can go anywhere on the island in charge without too much hassle or waiting too long and also hopefully not pay too much. So in short answer, you know, yeah, we want to see a lot more incentives currently we have to get more charging stations installed all through Hawaii. And that would have to be another legislative point. That's not gonna happen without some legislative imprimatur. Okay. No, I wanted to ask you as a tech guy, you mentioned the possibility that there is software out there that would allow me to identify a charging station nearby. I'm developing a little anxiety and I only have X miles left on my dashboard. I need to get a charge. So I look at my cell phone and it tells me where the nearest charging station is. I can do that with a restaurant. Why can't I do it with a charging station? So the question is, is there anything out there right now that is operating and public and you know, useful in terms of software especially mobile software and whether or not there is what is the need to have further software designed and deployed in Hawaii to cover not only the existing charging stations but to increase, you know, to add to the database so to speak so that every time a charging station comes online it's on this mobile app. Where are we in terms of the development of this software? It's a great question, Jay. So at the moment there are multiple apps. So first of all there are multiple providers ChargePoint, GreenLots. There are a number of these providers that manage the charging stations and each of them have app that you can actually download and utilize to interact with these stations. There's another application which is called PlugShare and PlugShare consolidates all of this information. The inputs at the moment are manual so people will identify a station that's not on there or they opt to have their personal charging station available to the public so they can actually submit information on so it's crowdsourced to some extent. But the point is that if you're traveling and you're wanting to figure out, okay, I'm gonna be in Waimea. What are the charging stations in around there? You are able to get on the app and through geolocation and all that good stuff you're able to find it, right? You're able to find it. Now the other thing is cars are also becoming smarter. Will it tell me if there's fast charging station versus slow charging station? Yes. Because I do not wanna spend more than say 20 minutes charging. Yes, yes. It is, they color code the different types of chargers. So it's level two level DC fast charger and then also the residential ones that are available. So yes, now I will say that there are still some failings associated with this because one of the challenges, for example, is being able to identify whether or not something is actually being utilized at that point in time. So to be able to do that, you need to go on to the manufacturers or the provider's application and then see, okay, is there someone using this right now? Is it out of order? That sort of thing. So it's not as usable as it could be, but the need is there and at some point it's going to be addressed. The other thing is that- It's like the biky biking program, you know? It's going to the bike program sends back a wireless signal through the internet and tells you how many bikes are there. It tells you which bikes are broken maybe. And so all of this is doable and I would expect pretty easily for charging stations. All the functionality you just talked about. Yes, yes. The functionality is there and at some point and it's already starting to happen, it'll be incorporated into the actual vehicles. So on your interface in the car, you'll be able to say, okay, well, I'm running low, I need to charge, where's the nearest one? And be able to make a selection. Obviously in places like the mainland, it's even more pronounced and more advanced. And our hope is that we'll see something similar here on across the state. Is it on your website, the EV association website? Information on PlugShare, those apps. Yes. Yeah, yes. Yes, good you. Good, good. So, one interesting thing is you guys have been focused and I have two on the big island because the big island is, well, it's my favorite island. And I guess that that goes to- The big island, best island. But what you're doing does have statewide impact and interest. And I wonder, Tam, what you see going forward for these various initiatives, ideas, incentives, what have you, in terms of taking the idea, taking the lessons you learn on the big island and deploying them in every island. What are your thoughts and plans about that? You know, to be clear, the Hawaii EV Association is a statewide organization. We actually have chapters for each island. For example, there's a big island EV Association, the Kauai Island EV Association, there's a new Maui chapter on the Wahoo. It is the Tesla Club, which doubles as basically a county level EV Association for a Wahoo. So when I talked about policy recommendations, et cetera, that's for state policy. Now we do have a sister organization that we work with pretty closely, both Noel and I are on the board of that organization too called Think Big, Big Island Green, which you mentioned in the intro. And so Big Island, Think Big is focused on the big island, obviously. And we do certainly try to pilot initiatives here in the big island that we hope will have some statewide impact also. There's a lot of cross-pollination going on, but Hawaii EV is focused on state policy. We're out of time, you know, Tam. And I don't know, I don't have a clear feeling as to whether I allowed you guys enough room to say what you wanted to say to our viewership about the subject. That is the use case or maybe the application case for electric vehicles. Can you talk about what else you want to leave with them? All right. Go ahead Noel. Yeah, so I, you know, just, this is a reiteration, right? We have to shift. We need to focus on energy efficiency, right? Across our systems, our buildings, our transportation, et cetera, accelerating our adoption to electric vehicles is a significant way to do that. It also allows us to reduce emissions, including the air, all that good stuff. There is value in hydrogen. It has to be green, right? It can't be dealing with fossil fuels. It has to be produced through renewables. And lastly, we need to focus research and investment on the more challenging applications for hydrogen. The passenger car is an easy problem. You know, that's not what we should be solving with hydrogen. We should be solving for liquid aviation fuels that are sustainable. We need to be solving for heavy freight, ocean. I mean, we've got all this, you know, inter-island, you know, transport that's happening. Let's figure out how to make that happen. Trans-specific, oceanic, and also air. There's a lot of research that needs to happen there. And the lastly is grid storage. You know, we can't just rely on batteries for grid storage. I mean, there's hope and value in hydrogen. So my sense is that there's value here. Let's just focus the attention on where it needs to be focused and let the battery electrics just do what they need to do and get it done as quickly as possible. Agreed. So Tam, on a percentage basis, how much of what Noel said you agree with? 100%. Okay. That's rare, but I can say that. No, no, he could have said 110%. You know, he could have done that. What else would you leave with our viewers, Tam? You know, I think Noel said it really well. You know, even though we are the Hawaii EV association, we fully recognize the benefits of non-car solutions as the primary solutions, including walking, biking, carpooling, ride sharing, the whole gamut. We have chosen, though, the niche of electric vehicle policy that's really where we feel like in Hawaii, there hasn't been enough focus. Great, you guys, I wish you well. Can tell you the think deck is with you at least 100%. We want to see you succeed. We want to see you have an effect on the state. We want the state to be a leader in all of those things. Thank you, Tam, thank you no more. Aloha, you guys. Aloha, thank you.