 One of my jobs in the early days with the Keeble Mining Group, which later became Tech Corporation, was rupstaking prospectors. Rupstaking is a concept, an idea that's gone by the boards now, but in the 40s and 50s and 60s, prospecting was very common and there was a lot of prospectors around and they would come around and ask individuals and companies for a rupstake. They would be raising anywhere from ten to thirty thousand dollars for a summer's exploration program and they would come in and see us and I would often give them five hundred or a thousand dollars for a small piece of their rupstake. So and I probably with the Keeble Group handled maybe 20 rupstakes a year and all these prospectors were part of the prospectors and developers association. At that time you had to be to be a director of the BDA, you had to be a prospector. I would change later on. So I got to know these people and they didn't like writing reports or briefs and many of them couldn't do it. So they knew me and started asking what I would be and helped them if they were doing a brief to the Securities Commissioner or the Tax Department on these matters. So very early on I started helping on briefs and the association had a difficult period in the mid sixties when Mrs. McMillan had to leave and I helped the restore the association the next year and then finally I went on the board in 1970 of the prospectors and developers association and I was the first engineer per se to be a director and I helped run the convention we have in Toronto every year and then in 1975 Jim Walker and I went in I was in went in as vice president and Jim was president and he was a geophysical contractor and gone a large part of the year so essentially I was running the association during the two years he was president and then I became president myself in 77 and we expanded the board to 48 members and it had been anywhere between 12 and 30 it seemed to vary how many directors they had and it didn't really have any routine for a regular director's meeting. We decided that we would we would go across Canada and we talked people into going on the board to represent the industry across Canada and we would have a meeting every month at the same date so that people could come to Toronto they knew that the second Tuesday of a month that we're going to be a BDA board meeting and they could do other business visit relatives or raise money or talk to an engineering firm so we changed the association big time and made it you know representative across Canada and regular board meetings and formed quite a few new committees that would work on land regulations or taxation securities commission all these issues that we ended up with 12 different committees and I've been involved in it ever since I started the awards committee with them in 78 with one award the Bill Dennis Canadian Discovery of the Year and I'm still chair of that awards committee now and we're just meeting now and we have six or seven awards and we give it every year awards night on Monday night we're acknowledged people's contribution to the industry so yeah I over 50 odd years I've been involved with them on just about every committee and there are you know many of the people are lifelong friends