 very esteemed guests with us today, dear friends. I know they're dear friends, probably to you. They certainly are to me. You have seen them, of course, with the Chi community over the years. And I'm so pleased that they have come in to talk about a very timely topic for our times and the time of year, which has to do with personal self-integration. But first, I'm gonna just keep my introductions brief because I think most of you know Dr. Tiffany Barsotti and Dr. Paul Mills. We'll start with Dr. Tiffany Barsotti, who has just written an incredible book, which I'm holding up here called The Biology of Transformation. And this book bridges esoteric physiology with current neurophysiology with some really dynamite thought and data to kind of tie together our energetic experience and our physiological experience. So I'm really enjoying reading this book, Tiffany. I believe it's available on Amazon, you guys. It was just released. And Dr. Paul Mills, who I believe is not a stranger to you also. Many of you probably saw him, of course, co-hosting with us on the last Science of Healing Summit. He is a board member of the Consciousness and Healing Initiative. And he is also the author of this new book called Science, Being and Becoming, which of course has a forward with Deepak Chopra and commentary from Ken Wilbur and just an incredible book diving into the spiritual lives of scientists and how our spiritual lives as scientists guide us toward deep and beautiful scientific inquiry. Now, what I love about both of these books is that both of you are really bridging together what it means to be a human being in this time, what it means to be unapologetically spiritual and scientific. And as we know, while within our beautiful community here at the Consciousness and Healing Initiative, this is greatly welcomed. And it's understood on a felt level for many of us. For many in the community, it's not quite like that. It's a sense that we have a spiritual life, we have a scientific life. And as we traverse to try to bring these things together, there is a process that we often have to go through. And I understand that a lot of the work that the two of you have been doing lately in addition to writing books and conducting research and teaching all the things that you do separately, together you have begun a journey of personal transformation, personal self transformation and integration work. So this is a big buzzword topic these days, integration. Tell us a little bit about what you mean when we talk about integration, first of all. What does this mean to you? And how is it relevant to the work that you both are doing today out in the world? Yeah, thank you, Xiaomi, for that introduction. Really appreciated that. Love you. You too. Indeed. I would answer that in terms of what the word you used a moment ago about being unapologetic about integrating and awakening our spiritual life in the context of science or whatever our careers happen to be. And integration is us being willing to look into those domains of ourselves that historically we haven't pursued. Maybe we've had little callings here and there and then we've just ignored it because we were too deep in this part of our life or that part of our life. And our work together with personal self integration is about helping people wake up to those impulses inside that are trying to guide them to a more awake spiritual life and PSI personal self integration also helps a person resolve things within their subconscious mind in addition to conscious mind that might be impediments to that forward movement as I think we'll be speaking about during our seminar today that there's really is a change in the atmosphere and the vibration we could say in the consciousness there's opportunity for humanity now to begin to wake up but we have to respond to the opportunity we have to respond to this call in order to participate in the movement. And sometimes the calls we're not as conscious of and other times we are and it's important to do things to help us tune in to be able to listen. I love that Paul. Yes, something. Yeah, it's Tiffany will you tell us your perspective on this? I know that this is very near and dear to your heart for many years you've been teaching about this also. Yeah, I have and thank you it's so fun to be together in this way again and yes it's shocking it's November and just for people that know us I'm cheating I'm standing on something because I looked like a midget before standing next to Paul. So I almost look like I'm as tall as him but I'm not so I'm really just wanted to tell on myself straight out of the box. So for personal self-integration what I noticed in going through my own trials and tribulations of traumas and different things in my life is I was not integrated with the other aspects that I felt like I could access in meditation or I felt like I could go into a retreat setting or something like that and find access to but I couldn't maintain that level of awareness and sort of a sufficiency of self in my integration in my own sort of ecology my own ecology of self and it wasn't until when I went to graduate seminary and was studying with Carolyn Mason, Norm Shealy I knew about archetypes but I did a deeper dive much deeper dive into archetypes and also got introduced to many other teachers that are really the personal self-integration is built on a lot of different cosmologies and systems, ancient systems and when we get into that part of the conversation if it's warranted for us I would love to know from your perspective from a Janism perspective if there's anything like this where we get to really meet the other subconscious aspects we all have multiple voices. So where are they coming from and what are those sometimes blocks? It's not always just simply the inner critic and that's what I was dealing with for a long time until I really did a deeper dive and then also got with the teachers and then one of my mentors said to me you met your subconscious selves and when he read one of my papers because to me this was like a torturous experience I met a crocodile who told me that I was a croc of shit and- Oh! Ouch! But it was an entry point to meeting my mental judge self it was an entry point to yes at some base there was a criticism and it was very highly mentalized and if I didn't do things perfectly this would be how things would happen and it would be like punishing and then now as I've worked with this dynamic aspect of my subconscious this part of me is more integrated and now helps me to develop the synthesis of bringing in all these other teachers and teachings and being able to have conversations and dialogue that are so meaningful because it means one thing to be integrated on one plane it means something completely different when we synthesize information from all these other planes of existence and so I feel like that's what is happening in personal self-integration and the dynamic change that we're witnessing in other people who go through the program in addition to ours is phenomenal. So then especially in a time with a lot of plant medicine we need more integration. We need more integration for sure and I love some of these topics in terms that we are starting to bring to light in this conversation and I wanna make sure that everyone is sort of with us as we're discussing these topics I think most of us are familiar with the idea of subconscious typically in psychology we mean things that are not completely brought to conscious awareness, right? We know for example of something that some people have called super conscious extraordinary consciousness there is collective unconscious, right? So there are a lot of terms that are sort of bandit about and you also mentioned archetypes and I wanna make sure that we're not feeling confused at this point. So I think what might be good is for you to help take us through kind of the framework here you mentioned archetypes and sort of meeting the subconscious so we have this sense that archetypes can be sort of something that is subconscious mean that we're not necessarily consciously aware of certain aspects of ourselves, correct? Would you phrase it that way? Yeah, absolutely. And really, Carl Jung had an amazing quote and he said, until you make the unconscious conscious it will direct your life and you will call it fate. And wow, I mean that's really profound. So when we talk about stepping into our fate or stepping into our destiny and I wanna just tease out those terms a little bit fate is what we were fated here we're fated to be on the planet at this time we were fated to be born into the family we were fated to have the name that we had when we were born whether you change it or not doesn't matter all of these things that were fated and the destiny is having to do with what choices are we making along the path? And how conscious are we of making these choices at a physical level, at an emotional level at a mental level and all of these and hopefully ideally on our soul's path because the whole really the goal of personal self-integration and a lot of work out there is to really integrate the personality and the soul together and that's really the journey. So we speak in this archetypal language to be symbolic or metaphoric but they're real I mean when you meet your subconscious selves it's like wow this is a real personality and you know what I've known it my whole life there's a lot of details that get unpacked so what more can I say about giving you a background? The inquirer in me now wants to know subconscious selves like can you tell us a little bit about the ones that you often meet along the journey? You mentioned the inner critic or the mental judge self, right? You sort of mentioned that and perhaps there are more for those who haven't been as familiar with the archetype work or the idea of subconscious selves so that's one, right? I think all of us are fairly familiar with that mental judge self as you call it. Yeah, so may I show an image? I pulled something up. That would be lovely, yeah. Okay, great. So, whoops, oh you know what? Can you make it possible for me to share or is that not possible? We're disabled right now. It should be. Okay, now it is. Okay, great. And this is a back job to what Tiff's gonna share and there's another slide we can show. There are many traditions, historical wisdom traditions that speak about different selves that we all have and depending on the tradition some traditions speak about a higher number of selves some a lower number of selves. The system we work with right now has these seven and we can explain why we've been focusing on these and then we'll show you a slide with some of the other traditions that have spoken about the selves that comprise our entire cosmology. And these are reachable. So, some of the point that Paul just brought up you know, some systems hold that they're more and there certainly could be more and I have my own kind of ideas about why people may have perceived it such as that. But the reality is that I find this repetitively to be clinically very, very helpful but also for Paul's and my own journey as well that these were able to find in everybody. There's not an exception to these whereas when you get to some of these other domains that are painting pictures of other entities or beings, I don't mean entities as in like an attachment. I mean other aspects of self. So that's where this sort of cosmological map, if you will. So the high self is an aspect of the solar angel and has to do with our wisdom and illumination. Some traditions call it the guardian angel or higher soul and it sits at the causal plane and I'll show a map for that in just a moment. And just to add, so for most all the listeners right now, I imagine they've heard growing up whatever tradition they were in, they've heard of a concept of a guardian angel. You have a guardian angel, you have a higher self, these sort of things. So this is one aspect of this say inner cosmology we all carry that pretty much everyone knows about. And the same tips gonna speak about the male and female self and that's common even in basic psychology. Yeah, absolutely. And it is a little different than how Jung was talking about the animus and anime, though there is a relationship. So the male and female selves have a lot to do with how it is we do relationships. So the male self is obviously masculine energy. It's more of the young, it's active, it likes to take action. And it actually the male self relates to all of the fields if you will, the mental, astral and etheric. This is where we have a really a say, a personal say in our lives about how things are actually unfolding and shaping in our lives. The female self is the feminine energy yin, more receptive, also related to all of the fields. So, and this connection between the both of them, it really the work you would say is to build trust between them. And in order to rise up to what may be being asked for us to grow in a relationship. So if one or the other is holding back for whatever reason, that can show up as relationship issues for a person. Sabotage. Yeah, and that, yes, I will say that in a moment because if any of these are not working together ultimately for the desired outcome that we as the outer self personality are seeking, then it usually means that sabotage is on its way. So the wise, the inner wise child for the female and the inner wise child for the male, it's just gender specific for whoever is actually doing the work. And then as Paul was just mentioning the outer self personality, this is the flesh, blood and bones. This is us as personality on the leading edge of life. It's the intersection point for all of the interaction of these inner selves to be taking place and starting to have a conversation, if you will. It's a real opportunity, honestly. So the astral judge self is like, if you think about this as like an archetypal leader or a king or a queen or some sort of having a domain over the emotional body or the astral body, I use those terms interchangeably. I know some systems don't use them interchangeably. We're using them interchangeably. So this part of us until it's matured a bit and has been a little bit more integrated can be very emotional, very impulsive, dramatic and is actually this archetypal aspect of the astral. It actually rules our sacral area. And so we can have some disturbances in those areas and a lot of times it's emotional related. So isn't that interesting when we speak of it even from an enteric nervous system point of view and the information that's going in and throughout the system. And then the mental judge self kind of one in the same, not one in the same exactly, but as far as just on a different plane of existence, the mental field is this archetypal leader, if you will. So the mental judge self can be very proud of itself. It can be very clever until it's integrated and sees the greater good of interacting for the whole. So clever, dramatic, really wants oftentimes until it actually comes into a cohesiveness with the rest of the selves and the outer self is really wanting to have dominion or domain or power and control. And so it rules the solar plexus. And so this is that radar dish for picking up things that are in our environment and all of that sort of stuff. So what could we be reacting to? And then of course we all have a body self and this is an evolving elemental aspect. We're here on earth, we're made of the mineral kingdom, if you will. And so this is an archetypal aspect of our etheric body and it's giving us information about how it is that our body is perceiving all of this other activity in the mental, emotional and causal realms. I wanna add back on the body self. The when I've looked in and perceived this being which is elemental being basically the wisdom, the amount of wisdom this being cares is something I can't even begin to describe. And when I saw that and perceived it, it made so much sense because we all know our bodies are utterly complex but they're functioning all the time without our conscious need. Everything's automated, all the levels of the biochemistry, immunology on and on. There's so much wisdom in the body and this particular aspect of our self, we could say, really rules over and makes sure everything's running as best as capable. Now there are circumstances where things don't run as well as they should, we call that illness and there are reasons for that, of course. Absolutely. What was that? What was that? Sorry, John. It's beautiful. I just wanted to address a quick comment and also a reminder for folks, we will try to leave some time for questions if at all possible, at least the last 10 minutes. If you have a question, do throw your question in the Q&A box on the bottom of your screen at Zoom. And I just wanted to address a statement from Valerie because I think it's a fair statement. She's just, she's wanting to understand the linkages here with spirituality and science, I think is really what she's asking. And I just wanna speak to that a little bit and I know that you guys are gonna speak to this more as well. This is psychological science. So the idea of archetypes, subconscious selves and working with subconscious selves is not only part of psychological science, you can say in many different traditions. I know often we talk about more hard data at Chi, when we do scientific presentations, we're often talking about biomarkers and things like that. This is a different type of science of the psyche. And most importantly, I think what we're gonna learn Valerie and others as through this conversation is, why is this important? Like why are we going through these nature of our subconscious selves? Because what we're learning is that when, when we actually embrace the possibility that we have these different aspects of our subconscious and our spiritual life, it can actually direct the work that we do. And that's very related for example, to the book that Paul just wrote and Tiffany's book to a degree where, how are we integrating what is sort of considered more deeply personal, phenomenological that we've often said, isn't science, right? Actually it is part of psychological science, I'll say that again. When we begin to bring awareness to this and apply methodology as Paul and Tiffany have to this process, what we learn is how we can bridge the spiritual experiences that we have, bring light to subconscious experiences that we might have clear them and allow that to more greatly expand our work, including as scientists. So I just wanna make sure that we're really spotlighting the linkages here in case anyone is questioning, how is this related to science? Let's, let's continue. Yeah, and I appreciated your summary, right there Shaman, and I'm gonna add to it that these days when we think of science, we're in the headspace of more the intellect and Western science, which involves systematic ways of knowing usually using scientific instruments, repeated experiments and so forth. That's when we say science, most people think of that. So they're looking for that approach with specific kinds of data and instrumentation. But keep in mind, prior to the advent of Western science, this world was filled with vast, vast wisdom traditions. They did not have science as we know it, they did not have scientific instruments. The instrument was consciousness itself was people using repeatable, systematic methodologies of inquiry within. And you look through the Vedantic and the Buddhic and Tibetan, all these systems, they all have so much similarities because truth is truth, whether you're looking at it through subjective consciousness. And that's where a lot of this work has we have founded in some of these traditions. And then we're just bringing it forward today. So I think it's important for people to know about that because ultimately you're your own scientists for your own life, your own existence. And we're advocating using your own inquiry to probe into your own consciousness, your subconscious, your super conscious. It's time we have capability now to awaken all these dimensions. And the relevance of spirituality is twofold. This is a vast part of our consciousness and spirituality is unfolding this. The other part that's relevant to the so-called spiritual path is that there can be parts within our subconscious mind. And everybody knows about this where we sabotage ourselves. We're pursuing a certain path and then we quit for whatever reason. There's a voice in our head saying, I'm never gonna figure this out. I'm never gonna get blind. I'm never this, I'm never that. This is information within our subconscious. And these kinds of teachings can help people find and identify that voice. And then you could have a dialogue, for example and just move through it and then have a kind of a harmonization of the consciousness and moving forward. Lastly on that piece, the thing that Paul and I both write about and you too as well, Shamini as scientists what's been left out of science is whole person. It's very much our spiritual nature, our emotional nature and what makes us tick. And so there's a direct connection to our spiritual nature and isn't the time here to stop reducing ourselves into a Petri dish of only this happens in isolated events or whatever. There is nothing isolated about life. I just changed the slide so you can get a sense on this left column as an example of some of the different teachings and teachers which have spoken about the many selves. That was one of Orbinda's terms, our many selves. And it doesn't take much study through a variety of traditions to begin to identify this material. And for whatever reasons, it just hasn't made it to us in popular culture as meditation has or yoga has or acupuncture, these sort of things. But these are more the wisdom from the inner domain, not so much the outer activity. And you wanted to show this? Well, just to explain because I was giving the aspect when I was talking about the selves here and mentioning the mental field and all of that. So where we really start to have some say, some domain of conscious and putting things into motion is really at the mental level. And so the causal level are things that were put into motion before we took our physical body and part of our soul's path. But the mental field is really where we start to have some say and then the astral in the emotional, as I said, using those interchangeably and then the etheric body which is just hovering really as layers just off of the body. And then our relationship to higher self is actually at the causal level. So really that was the point of bringing that up. Great. And before we can do group consciousness, I think that it's, we really need to be able to do individual consciousness. So for the benefit of the planet. Yes, for the benefit of the planet and as we are all continuing to have extraordinary experiences. You mentioned, for example, psychedelic work which is becoming more in vogue where people are having, entheogen-led spiritual experiences. Often people just have spontaneous spiritual experiences. Yet, how are those integrated? This is very important in the psychology realm. It's a huge issue. And it does seem like in the entheogen world, the studies that are going on now are what were designed, of course, in the 60s or 70s where they weren't able to do it because of the political situation and the social demographic information at that time. They weren't able to conduct that work. So you do see these, they're not just psychedelic therapies, but there's psychedelic psychotherapy-assisted interventions that are taking place to try to address perhaps some of the integration aspects. A little different from the way people were taking psychedelics in the past. Perhaps they didn't necessarily always have that option. So we're seeing those positive effects for patients, but I think a lot of us also are a little concerned about the commercialization of psychedelics just sort of broadly and people saying, well, I'm starting to feel a little depressed. Maybe I should microdose. Well, maybe. And maybe there are other ways to approach it. And if you are microdosing and you're not necessarily aware of the input of what's coming up, bubbling up from the subconscious, right? And these selves as you like to describe them, right? We have an integration issue. So now you know the magic question. So now we're aware that we have these aspects of what we call our subconscious. Some are even conscious in the conscious awareness, right? Some also, of course, it's not necessarily that they don't traverse the spiritual domains. We call them subconscious, right? All this nomenclature. But we're not always fully aware of these aspects of our being, as you say. So what are the processes that you all teach to help us become aware of these aspects of ourselves that could be driving the bus, as you say? Before Tiff answers that. I want to make a point. So you were just describing, again, the conscious and subconscious. But if you read some of the great spiritual teachers, Ramana Maharishi, Shree, Nisargadatta Maharaj, and others, they say part of the spiritual evolution is, it's an elimination between the so-called conscious and subconscious mind. That really ultimately shouldn't be there. So by us getting to know what's in the subconscious, that helps dissolve this artificial boundary so that we as a person have full access to what we've previously called the subconscious and all the knowledge and wisdom and intelligence and skills and so forth there. And that helps support the movement to the so-called super conscious, if we use Orabindu's word. You know, the higher mind, super conscious, super consciousness, and so forth. So Paul, would it be correct to say, from more of the non-dual perspective, which I know that you espouse, that if we believe that the world is Maya, it's illusion and that everything is one. The question becomes, why do we divide into these subconscious selves? But I think what I hear you saying is, this is a process. So we're still very much, when we're working with these subconscious selves, we are in essence sort of still living in the world of duality. We're perceiving it that way, but by allowing those aspects of duality, as we see it to become conscious, we can then more easily merge into the experience of non-duality or oneness. Would it be fair to say that? That's reasonable. And it's not as if, if you're in non-duality, it's not as if you still don't see pieces and parts in the creation around you. It's just that everything is perceived as one wholeness. It doesn't mean that I no longer see the consciousness of this person or this Godhead. It's just all one. And so, yes, I would say the PSI work just help overcome the illusion of what's often called duality. And we want to move into the non-duality. And of course, science historically, as it's been practiced, very much fosters duality and separation. Wow, amazing. That's true. So you were going to explain how it's done. How it's done, yeah. It's a lot through guided imagery, but also what I wanted to say is, there's the unitive that really we talk about. We talk about it as a concept, but how does one achieve a unitive state? And there are cosmologies that are out there for how you do that for sure. This is just the one that Paul and I have landed on because of our own personal experiences and what I've also seen it do for others. And Paul as well. So this isn't to say this is the only way for sure, not at all. But what does it mean to experience a unitive experience? Because really what I was just saying about experiencing that internally first really is a must before we're gonna see that it's externally available to us. It's not just gonna magically appear. It's this, as above, so below, as below, so above, as within, so without, as without, so within. So it's both, it's and both to enact this in ourselves. And the way we meet the subconscious selves to answer that question is through guided meditations and journeys. And even if a person doesn't feel that they are sufficient at visualizing, that doesn't matter. We all have the language of perception. And sometimes we need to get it honed and what is our language of perception? For some people, they get confused because they're not necessarily seeing when we're saying, okay, imagine. And so that sort of puts into one's frame of mind, well, I need to see it, but I don't see it. So then therefore I'm not good at it or what I am seeing, I'm making up or those kinds of things. And really it's about trusting your own experience and being able to access your own felt sense. And then for people who are seeking to have further experiences in their lives, there could be a subconscious self, for instance, that could be blocking that because of fear. So our goal is to meet that subconscious self with whatever fears could be being dealt with from that perspective, and then help that subconscious self get that resolved. So that's some of the work that we do when we're in session is to, first of all, meet it, understand it. We have to bring it to our awareness first before we can do anything about it. And then we can make conscious choices around it. So it's all through guided processes and the group dynamic is profound, it's just profound. You're doing this in groups. So you've got all these selves meeting each other. That must be, thank for an interesting party. Yeah, so fun. It's great. That's amazing. That's very dynamic. Just to note about the imagery aspect and the guided journeying, just a reminder to everyone that the data is pretty clear that working with imagery can be incredibly powerful for healing and health. I wanna shout out to a person who actually wrote us, Paul and Tiffany on the chat and said, I'm an MD who has been practicing personal self-integration now for many years and I have seen this work not only with myself, but my patients and she gives an example of a patient who she did the PSI work with personal self-integration work and saw her insulin levels drop tremendously as a result or rather her sugar levels. So as far as imagery grows, if those who are not familiar, for example, with Belarus naprasack's work with guided imagery, that was where I was first introduced to it, helping out with a study with Mimi Guarneri and Rowney King, which looked at healing touch with guided imagery. And I became more aware of Belarus' work, which is now very much integrated into the hospitals because of the evidence base where people are working with active imagination, what we might call the quote, imaginary realms. And this is really important because as you spoke about earlier with the male self, the mental self, right, we're used to sort of the cognitive aspects of our being really working with that. And so we have forgotten the power of the imaginal realms and we do often discount them in the science field, especially as being not real. Woo-woo made up, you know, all these things, but when we actually look at the data for working with imagery, regardless of whether you think it's quote real or not, when we look at the data behind that, we see that it can be incredibly powerful, showing relaxation effects, showing healing effects in the body. So do we understand it all, you know, from the Western scientific sort of mental lens, you can only go so far. And I think, Paul, that's what you're... You can only go so far, yeah. Which really again leads us to some of the stories in your book, Paul, where you talk about these experiences that scientists have. And I want to remind folks, we're aware of folks like Einstein who got their theories through dreams, right? Dreams being incredibly informative. The experiences that you share of so many scientists, many of whom we know here at the Consciousness and Healing Initiative, right? Who drew inspiration from their spiritual life, their imaginal life, so to speak. And... Indeed, I want to comment on that because imagination is essentially a faculty of the soul. That's how I see it. And you're right. Western science, Western culture in general has discounted the imagination. That's not uncommon when you're young growing up to here. Oh, that's just your imagination. So that's a part of our kind of spiritual inheritance, our toolbox, let's put it that way. That is vitally important. You read the book, my book, and you might recall I wrote about Owen Barfield. He's a beautiful philosopher, wise person from the UK. And one of the lines he said that I so appreciate and know to be true, he said, perception, mere perception without imagination is the sword thrust between the spiritual and what we call the material. Those of us who walk around who have put our imagination offline, it's like putting our inspiration offline. We're very handicapped with how we're functioning in the world. And so, yes, the PSI makes use of, you said it, active imagination. It's a powerful language. It's actually the language of the subconscious. And that's why we have to use it to get in there and start interacting and interfacing and build the communication. And then eventually the communication is both directions and you don't need the imagination so much because a lot of that material has come to what we call the conscious mind. Beautiful. Yeah. Yes, very true. Beautiful. Yeah. Some comments, if people are loving your graphic, they're asking you to put it back up. But you guys will learn more about how to connect with Paul and Tiffany. Perhaps they'll be able to share a graphic with us. It's on our website. Let me give it to you. Can I just put it in the chat? Yeah, let's throw it in the chat. So if you wanna have access to the graphic that they just showed for your own personal study, they're generously offering the opportunity. Yeah, our website is healandthrive.com. And there's a lot more information about PSI on there as well as some interviews with people who have completed the course and kind of a personal testimony, what it did for them. Right. So you can learn more about how to connect with Paul and Tiff and learn more from them. They are offering different ways to sort of connect and learn more about PSI and go on the journey together. And before we get into questions and we will have some time for questions, given what we're discussing and both of you doing your own personal journeys which have led you to the personal self-integration work, bringing what is not into awareness into awareness and having a sense that that matters deeply for our scientific journey as well as our human journey, of course, general human journey, but also the evolution of science. As you know, here at the Consciousness and Healing Initiative, we embrace multiple perspectives on healing. We understand that healing practitioners and scientists have been separated often as if you're one or the other. With folks like you, we see the embodiment of both the scientific acumen and being very systematic and being able to really articulate and test a hypothesis using the tried and true methods of empirical science as we know it. And also, again, back to the beginning of the hour, deeply unapologetic about being spiritual. So with that, knowing that you both hold both realms, which we love here at the Consciousness and Healing Initiative, where do you see the work in consciousness and healing going? There are so many ways to move forward, right? And we know many colleagues in the space doing incredible work. We're all doing different work in the space. What are you most excited about? And how do you see the evolution taking place in the consciousness and healing work? Yep, good. Yeah, I'll chime in. Okay, so first of all, the fact that Chi exists and it has been created as this body, this entity that's its own being, it is carrying forward the voices of many to be able to hold the space. It makes me emotional, Xiaomi, because we've been in the trenches as it was created and really it took, wow, it took a lot of dedication to see it come through and it's for the betterment of humanity. And one of my direct teachers, but he's dead, to all cool, Master DK or the Tibetan, he said that really scientists of the future are going to involve clairvoyance psychologists as well as those who are studied in rudimentary science that we know so well. It's really this coming together. And that is the science of the future. And it can't leave out consciousness. It can't leave out who we are as people. It's like, you know, what comes to mind is that Vedantic saying that there's the known, there's the unknown, and then there's the unknowable. And we can traverse these terrains as much as we are able to in our physical bodies, but we also have our consciousness that can take off through our dream states as one of them through a meditative state, through existential experiences or whatever, however they come in, that then give us a kernel. Oh, wow, I would have never thought to put this in together and as you said, Paul's book is just filled. And there's so many more scientists that could have been interviewed. And hopefully there will be a book tool where this will get to have another voice. But yeah, this is, I just see it as the essential for consciousness and healing and the scientific development of. I wanna add that we had the question earlier about where's the science in certain things? And I think it's incumbent upon all of us these days, most of us are admirers of science. I am in my whole career in a scientific world. We all have to acknowledge the limitations of science because if we keep expecting modern science as we know it to deliver these things that it can't deliver, then people are gonna keep retreating from what science can't deliver and think it's not real, whether it's consciousness or all that. And that is an example of where science has handicapped us as individuals and in cultures and societies for decades and centuries. It's because it's closed off this realm. Science tells us how things work, but it can never really give us insight into the why of it. And the why requires us to move into the realm of consciousness as Tiff was saying, the transpersonal, the metaphysical, the mystical. That's where the why lives because that's us. The mystical has all this beautiful knowledge and wisdom and information. And so as more scientists move into that and you're right Chomani, that's what many of the scientists shared their stories with me. That's transformed not only themselves, obviously it would, but their science. And then that's the kind of science that can move us forward because they all acknowledge where science as we know it currently ends as far as inquiry. And then you have to traverse it using other methods in this case, human consciousness. It's still not as accepted certainly by mainstream, but hopefully we'll see things evolve. So this is up to each person to kind of have this knowledge and awareness of them themselves and start utilizing their own capacity for inquiry to make discoveries about themselves. Yeah, and just to add to that, that the why is actually an emotional journey. Why are we gonna pursue anything? So that's a heart question. Yeah, that's a beautiful point. One of the interviewees in the book, Dr. Dusana Dorje, she's at York University in the UK. She said something I really appreciated. She said, I think every human being has what I'm calling the IM instinct, the IM instinct. And what she meant by that is we all are driven to know ourselves. We all are driven to move through space and time, having a fundamental inquiry, who am I? How do I work? What am I doing here? All of that. And science can help us to a degree and reach your science as it's merged with things like clairvoyance and clairaudience. And who knows what else is gonna evolve as human beings advance to our next level that then science will begin to service in a really more profound way than it has. So beautifully put, I'm just taking it in right now and I'm getting very emotional listening to both of you. It's just a, I love the, not even the vision, it's the knowing that you have about this and the knowing of how humanity is evolving and what it means for us as a human species, for this planet, for our evolution and our healing, right? Our collective healing, which is really important. I mean, as you know, most of us here are healing practitioners of some sort or another. So for me, I'm always very practical. I'm thinking about application. How are we going to, how is this really going to help transform suffering, needless suffering, right? And this is the point. This is, you know, how we can direct our science. It's not just about building rocket ships that we can recycle to, you know, get trash out into the solar system. This is what happens if we don't integrate, right? So like, this is serious people. Like, you know, there is really a need for integration here if we really want to have humanity evolve to our fullest potential and be sustainable stewards of our planet. So we do have some time for questions. I want to honor those who are asking questions here. Great questions. And if any of you want, I'm just reminding you, if you've been throwing stuff in chat, I haven't been able to capture everything. So please, please, if you have a question, put it in the Q&A so I don't miss it. So this is a question from Zainab and saying wondering how this framework relates to Eileen McCusick's mapping of the body's energy field developed through her sound healing practice. Well, Eileen is a good friend. So I know that Tiffany, you'll probably be interested to answer this question. Oh, and I've contemplated it because I too am a biofield tuner and have incorporated it into when I had an office and I was doing more of that in an in-person environment to really bring harmony within because what we're dealing with in that, in the fields is information. And when I like to describe the, you know, when my fork hits something and it's a dissonant sound, I describe them as plasma balls, well, affectionately, that they're just sort of hanging out and they're just sort of being this disruptive thing. Well, that could give us a map to, oh, well, I habitually think that. And yes, it could be family related, but it also could be the fact that there's a subconscious self that may be not in alignment with this pursuit of a path or that there's a dissonance in the fact that I think this way, but I feel this way. And so, you know, really bringing it once again, it's that unit of seeing what is in the greater good for all aspects of self, that's the point. And so, yes, the map matters and all of these maps matter, all of these cause more. Yeah, it's making me think of that one pattern that Eileen talks about where, you know, somehow resonates with me is the frustrated overdoing, right? So if we look at that, you know, that pattern that you often see in biofield tuning, the frustrated overdoing, then it's an opportunity to then inquire into the different aspects of selves. Well, why am I doing that? What's going on as a thing? There's just one, you know, personal kind of example that I could share to kind of relate to, right? Many of us are engaged in that frustrated overdoing and learning how to undo that pattern. Lots of questions coming up here. What is the, this is a great question. What is the relationship between the ego and the subconscious mind? In many ways, what we call the ego our subjective sense of self is a manifestation of the subconscious mind. Typically when people have a sense of an eye-ness on the level of the mind-body system, it's actually a compilation of all the, we could say the subconscious selves, those consciousnesses, those voice, compiling it into one voice, that people then say, ah, this is me, this is me. But what's beautiful about the work, when you start to inquire and just doing a little bit of meditation, and I advocate, everyone listening to this today, don't find a quiet place to sit down and just listen to that voice you have of eye. And what you can find over time is that it's actually comprised of sub-voices, sub-aspects of our consciousness all combining to produce that piece of us. Now, that's then the journey of for spiritual, the spiritual path to self-realization, of course, is then moving beyond that experience of the eye as something separate from everything else. And that's the movement from duality to non-duality. And that when you make that transition, then it moves into this open, unitive state. And in unitive state, you still see there are different things, different people, different consciousnesses, different voices, but there's no separation amongst them. It's all within the sea of the one, really, one consciousness. Oh, you still hear the voices, but your relationship to them is a little different. Absolutely. And their content changes because... They're evolving too. They're evolving too. And let me just say this, the biggest fear of the subconscious selves and the ego is that we're going to try and annihilate it and destroy it. So I just, I really vehemently disagree with teachers out there trying to tell you to dismantle or disintegrate the ego. That is dangerous. I just, maybe I stand alone in that. I don't know if you feel as vehemently as I do, but it is a part of us. It seeks to integration. It doesn't seek annihilation. It will fight back so much harder if we're trying to annihilate, you know? I mean, that's felt. I mean, plants have been measured of when they think that they're about to be destroyed. They throw up their Richter scale activity of, no, you're not going to destroy me. Those are real measurements. So anyway. That's a key point. And Sharina is asking, so there's such a thing as a good ego. Yeah, I'm just going to break this down a little bit more and share a personal perspective because you asked about Jannism, for example. So we know again that often the secondary teachings are culturally laden. I grew up reading books that were typically written by Jan Monks. I didn't have the source texts at nine years old. I wasn't reading source texts. I still can't read Hindi, let alone Sanskrit very well. So there's secondary texts that I've been reading and often they spoke about annihilating the ego. We were taught in our tradition often that ego is bad. Transcend your ego, transcend your senses. There's a lot of room for misinterpretation of what that means. And this is very key. I think that you're sharing with us as a practitioner, someone who has worked with many different kinds of patients with all kinds of different mental health afflictions and issues that come up. This idea that we annihilate the part of ourselves that is sort of poised for integration and action doesn't make sense. And the very terminology of annihilating the ego in itself can be considered culturally laden. It's sort of, if you will, the way I'm seeing it, a male approach in that active way of like that active annihilation kind of approach. But it can be understood in a completely different way, as you say, with the integration, there is no need for annihilation. The ego, which is the action oriented carrying out the work in the world is now informed before it just didn't have all the information. Now it has the information to carry out the work, hence the good ego, because we all maybe many of us have experienced these states when we're in complete oneness and bliss, it's beautiful, but we have no motivation to do anything at all. It's a beautiful state. And if we were all in that state all the time, maybe there wouldn't be much to do. We'd have to feed ourselves in clothes and things like that, right? It's probably a lot less activity. But the good ego, we think of the saints, we think of other people who carry out beautiful work to light up the souls and others, to help protect them, to shelter them, to prevent violence. That can be considered good ego, right? And the good ego is then fortified through the integration. Absolutely, that's what I hear you saying. Yeah, absolutely. And this thing about, it's like the parasympathetic and the sympathetic, they're complementary. Could you imagine, we would never get out of bed if our sympathetic system didn't actually turn on for us. So everything, and to relate it to the physical body in taking action as well. So everything has a compliment. You were gonna add? Yeah, I'll add that when you were saying so-called good ego, to me what that means is the individual has overcome egotism. And what I mean when I say that is they're an ego who have overcome the illusion of separation. That's the graduation from egotism to a healthy ego. And then the ego is a foundational part then of this evolutionary stream of the human being moving into an awakening to another level of our existence. So from my point of view, that's my point of view. That's beautiful. I love it. That's perfect. Yeah. A couple of great questions. Susan, I think this is probably a longer question than you have time to answer, but maybe if you have time to answer it quickly because we have a couple of other questions I wanna make sure we get to. Susan asks, Jung said that the Western culture suppresses the feminine, the great mother, how to integrate it. This is a very important question. Yeah, and it's true. First of all, stop denying the feminine aspect even within ourselves. And a person who's asking that question, you're probably not denying. You're just noticing that everybody else is maybe having a hard time. We're vacillating with, all right, what's the feminine aspect? But this is also what we were speaking about in the sciences, right? That for a long time, the so-called soft sciences weren't necessarily considered legitimate science. And you could put that in the sort of the yin or different type of realm of science. It's still science. And if anything, it needs to be more well integrated. And so bringing, and Jung was predictive in a lot of his thinking and his writings about what the Western mind was dealing with and gave us some pretty clear actions about how it is that we can work with our subconscious and really work towards this animus and anime and knowing ourselves through these dimensions of they're important. And I think that the planet will be a much healthier, happier place filled with individuals that are healthier, happier and more integrated people. And that one begets the other. Absolutely. I just gave a talk at the Academy of Integrative Health and Medicine and it was kind of a new perspective that I haven't shared before on this very topic, Paul and Tiff, integrating the so-called masculine aspects of our being with the feminine aspects of our being and how are we doing that in science and medicine? What are we learning? I call it the smart and heart approach. So smart is a systemic separatist, measurable as we like to active, all these masculine aspects restrictive because we're always looking for that active ingredient and treatment focus. Now, we discovered the focus of treatment if you look at the actual origin of the word is actually from tractare, which means to pull out. So we can think of how we've been using the smart approach and how it relates to pathogenesis for so long. But the heart approach is holistic, embedded, ecological, allowing, which is receptive, relational and therapeutic. Therapeutic, of course, connects with therapy, which is to serve. And so when we actually look at the data, this is a longer discussion, when we actually look at the data with placebo, energy healing, things like this, we see that the heart approach is very much there and it is something that we can apply in science and that we need to. And as practitioners, we apply both. Again, the smart and heart approach. Boy, more questions. And this one is very detailed. Serena, I'm gonna ask you to ask this question directly to Paul and Tiff, maybe through email or their website because it's very specific and I wanna honor the time. Alaini is asking if you're a couple, that's easy enough to answer. I would say that would be a yes, yes. Beautifully married couples, super couple as you can see and what an honor for them as well to be co-teaching together and an honor for us to have this beautiful power couple teaching in the way that you are and thank you so much for that. Book names, yes. So we are going to put in the chat right now all the ways for you to learn more from Paul and Tiffani. First, science being and becoming book by Paul Mills, you can find this on Amazon, Goodreads, thrift books all over, book from Tiffani, Biology of Transformation, also available on Amazon. Self published, yes. Self published, the way Heal and Thrive, Jason has just sent you the link to their website. If you go to their website, you'll learn about all of their offerings. They also offer personal coaching and group coaching in personal self integration, right? Where when you have these really more deep questions you're ready to sort of take the journey with this beautiful couple. They're offering things. Tiffani is teaching a course at shift right now. I'm so thrilled, Tiffani, that you're also going to be a guest teacher on my upcoming shift course on the healing keys and talking more about intuition during that time. I'm really excited for that. And gosh, you're getting so much love for you all in the chat. They're loving everything, loving your energy, loving what you have taught today. And it's always such a gift to spend time with the both of you. You as well. Thank you so much. Thank you. And thank you for this community. You have built such a container that holds the heart and it holds the smart too, but it wants to propagate the heart. Absolutely. Yeah, that is the way forward. Well, thank you again, both of you for your beautiful time, your energy and your heart. And thank you everyone for connecting with us here and have a beautiful, beautiful weekend. Thank you too. Thank you. Thank you everyone. Thank you. Thank you, Sharmini. Goodbye. Bye. Now.