 We're listening to the Naked Bible Podcast. To support this podcast, visit nakedbiblepodcast.com and click on the support link in the upper right-hand corner. If you're new to the podcast and Dr. Heizer's approach to the Bible, click on newstarthere at nakedbiblepodcast.com. Welcome to the Naked Bible Podcast, Episode 186, Farron and Audrey, Discovering Mercy. I'm the layman, Tray Strickland. He's a scholar, Dr. Michael Heizer. Hey, Mike, it's nice to be in the same room with you and Farron and Audrey in Rhode Island of all the places. Woohoo. Yeah, you were saying the other day that you never thought you'd see Rhode Island. So what do you think? Well, yeah, I never thought I would ever be in Rhode Island and here I am. And you get to see fall? Yes, I actually get to see color on the trees and it was pretty cold where we ate. We had a good time then. Can you tell everybody what we did last night for dinner? Oh, yeah. We took a little road trip to get here and the four of us had dinner at George's of Galilee. And for those of you who have read my fiction, The Poor Tent in particular, which is the sequel to The Facade, that is the restaurant where Brian and the Colonel sort of have their meeting of the minds that the second book pivots on. So we thought, hey, it's on the way. Why not go to George's for dinner? The Colonel was not there. No, fortunately. But the lobster and clam chowder was and it was pretty good. Yeah, it was good stuff. Although you made me crack some lobster claw for you because you didn't want to put it in the work. Right. That's right. Well, you know, what can I say? That's why I rarely order that kind of thing. I hear you. It's not enough pay off. You and me both. Well, we're glad that not only that we could make the trip, you know, and have some have some FaceTime and spend some time together with Fern and Audrey, but we wanted to take the opportunity to talk to them again and both give something of an update because they have lots of new things to say, things that are going on, things that have developed for them. And also to really sort of get into some specifics that part of the reason we're together at this point was again, I spend, I think, how long has it been? It was three days, but we've been doing that those three days for like, yeah, since 2010, seven years. And we want to talk about a few of the things, you know, just sort of extract a few things that were discussed in our group this time and share them with listeners. So we thought this would be a good time to do that. So let's just jump in. We guys have a new website and more importantly, a new nonprofit entity. So you've sort of gone to the next level, making a transition. So let's open with that. Tell us about that. Yes, we have Discovery Mercy is our nonprofit that we work out of. We currently are waiting for a tax exempt status that is six months that we're waiting for that. So it should be any day now. And we decided to through the encouragement of, you know, folks like you, Mike and others that said, you know, you really need to move into a nonprofit. And so we have and in that transition, we did do a website not to expose anything of what really we do. But when folks come to see us, they always ask us, well, you know, where are we coming to? What does it look like? And so we came up with a website that kind of shows where they'll be staying about the heart of the ministry, what we're doing with the ministry, what it will look like for them. So they're not totally caught off guard. So the website really is for that point. It does. I mean, we took a look at it and, you know, kudos to Joe and his wife for putting that together. Joe and Siobhan did the work that went into the website. And, you know, it's it's a beautiful site and it does give some information just a little bit. But yeah, you're right. It's it's sort of a basic, you know, visual orientation gives a little bit of the details about the accommodations and whatnot. Yeah, Audrey spent hours working on a format and a visual presentation so that the survivor, the person coming to see us would be very comfortable in what they saw. And she has spent a lot of time helping even with creating the atmosphere at the office and the home where they'll stay for safety and so they can begin their journey. Audrey, do you want to add to that? Any, any specific thinking that went into that? It was it was surrounded by the touching the heart of a survivor so that they knew what discovering Mercy's heart is. Because Fern and I really want them to know that they're coming to a place that they'll be loved and not judged and that what they've always wanted their heart would be known, seen and loved. One of the three reasons why we even chose the name Discovery Mercy was because we took the beginning letters in Mercy and we capitalized it, discovering me in Mercy. Because one of the things in trauma based mind control, the first thing that we helped them do is to normalize the dissociation so that they're not afraid of themselves. And so the discovering me in the midst of God's mercy was really important to us. And that's why we chose that name and the whole heart behind the nonprofit, the name, the place they stay, the website really was for the heart of the survivor. Right. Even in the logo, the logo has a heart that's half hidden and that's for survivors. They know their hearts there and they just can't find it all. And that's what we want them to do is find their heart. So the site is discoveringmercy.org. For those who might not have heard the previous episodes or maybe they did and without the necessity of going back through previous discussions we've had. Why don't we just, for those people and again for the sake of review, just sort of overview what it is that you do, you know, defining your trauma based mind control, dissociation, some of the terminology that gets tossed around. I don't know if we want to go into distinguishing any of that from sort of pop cultural portrayals of it because recently there have been a couple and people listening to this might hear the conversation today and think, oh, that's like the movie split or oh, that's like stranger things. You know, so if you want to make some distinctions there, we can. Otherwise, I think some definitions to start off would be good or, you know, just trying to describe, you know, what it is that you're doing. And what do we mean by survivor? I guess to start with would be what is dissociation and that is a disconnection between a person's thoughts, memories, feelings, actions or sense of who he or she is. This is a normal process for everyone. Everyone experiences dissociation like mild common dissociation includes daydreaming or highway hypnosis or getting lost in a book or a movie. That's what everyone has and in a survivor's case it's much more organized and complex than just daydreaming on the highway. So trauma-based mind control is we are identifying a person or started as a child that they have lived through a lot of trauma and the trauma was purposefully perpetrated so that that child could be controlled through behavior. They can be conditioned to respond and obey to the perpetrator and that's what we're calling trauma-based mind control. I think that. So it's like an intentional wiring of thought or behavior, all those sorts of things. There is thought and intention behind that. And as we've discussed before, that intentional perpetration really came out of the 50s and we do have some clients that would probably have been earlier than that so I don't want to just stop at 50s. But it is the researchers of the educators, psychologists, psychiatrists. It's not just backyard Satanism. It's much more organized. It is for research purposes. Yeah, and again, for some listeners that will strike a chord with them. Research that was, again, maybe to say begun in the 50s might again be a bit anachronistic, but it usually gets associated with something like MKUltra, which wasn't just one program. It was dozens, maybe even hundreds of programs. And that was exposed in the 70s through the church hearings in Congress. And most of the records of that were destroyed, but we know about it because there were a number of boxes that didn't make it to destruction. And that research, though, was passed on. You had, again, academics, you had practitioners in the fields of psychiatrists and psychology, and they had graduate students. And the graduate students were interested in this area of research. And by this time, those graduate students have now had graduate students. And so, you know, the research continues on whether, and I think, you know, we'd all agree that it's probable that, you know, some sort of, there's still some sort of, you know, government use of this kind of thing. For instance, Annie Jacobson in her book on phenomena gets into it a little bit, you know, she mentions this, this part of the whole history of the US government's involvement in what, again, would broadly be termed psychic phenomenon. But since this is dealing with the mind, you know, she drifted over there a little bit. But, you know, there's some sort of, you know, official and covert, you know, use of this like there has been since the 50s, but you have a lot of people in these fields who are just interested in, you know, this area and everything associated with it. It never really went away. It just sort of actually multiplied and kind of spun out of control. I think you could even say, because it's not sort of governed by one agency or, you know, one funding source, you know, that sort of thing. So you guys are dealing with people that have been victimized and associated with that sort of stuff. And so I like your phrase, this isn't backyard Satanism. This is done by a lot of really smart people who have resources and a history of research, which means a history of techniques, you know, behind this. Now, we should say on the heels of that, one of the things I think that makes, at least in my exposure to this area, as far as a sort of Christian ministry that touches this, and there's not a lot of that to begin with. But one of the things that makes you different is that you actually spend a considerable amount of time in the academic research, you know, the journal literature. You're in contact with professors and experts that, again, for lack of a better way of saying it, this is their bread and butter academically. So you pay a lot of attention to real peer reviewed research and that and you use that you don't shun it. Well, that's not like a Bible verse, you know that you you actually use you know the research in and it helps you in the way you approach survivors and the way that you you work with them. So can you describe that a little bit you know your your relationship to the research. Yeah, I think it's really important. It really is a big jump off point from just doing simple prayer ministry. While Audrey and I sport no mental health credentials at all. It was really important for me as I got into working with survivors that I noticed that the routine prayer ministry approach just didn't help. It wasn't you're working with someone who the conditioning to this child, the child first all did not have the opportunity to grow and develop in safety and connection and family and attunement in relationship at all. So there's this huge disconnect just from another human being. And so to bring them into a prayer ministry setting and and go into a relational thing. Let's get to the memories and let Jesus come in and speak. There was no foundation for relationship at all like that. However, a huge percentage 98% of the people that come to see us are born again. They love Jesus very much. And but all of the trauma the folks in the trauma inside of the person didn't know how to do relationship. So that sent us into Daniel Segal's work on interpersonal neurobiology. He's the father of that. That's saying basically every child in development synchronizes with the nervous system of the mom and the dad. And in that synchronization of nervous system, that child is learning how to do life. The brain is developing in a certain way. And so we noticed that that attachment, the attunement needed to develop a healthy child was purely absent. So Daniel Segal's work of interpersonal neurobiology. Bonnie Badanock takes a lot of the interpersonal neurobiology, some more attachment theory. And she writes a book to therapists and it's called the brain savvy therapist or the brain wise therapist. She's got a workbook with the two. And she is explaining to the therapists who have been trained typically to say, just integrate these, you know, just the child's regress, get them integrated. Bonnie's saying something totally different with the research of Dan Segal, Pat Ogden, Janina Fisher. And she's giving it to the therapist and saying, you know, these little kids that grew up in trauma, developed in trauma really think differently in their world. They can't just come alongside and do a worldview from a normal development. So we, we noticed that this was happening to our folks in front of us. And we went in and the attachment theory research and the body somatic theory research. And it was interesting how I would say that the Lord showed us that this is what we needed to do. And we just started doing this at about seven, eight years ago. And when we found these current research books, these books that came out of research, Bonnie Badanock's, Janina Fisher has a great book, Healing the Fragmented Cells of Trauma Survivors. It's not totally exactly what we do, but there is a lot of strong stepping stones that will help people have a paradigm shift to walk into helping a survivor rather than the old historic model of going through the memory, stirring up the darkness and having Jesus come in and speak truth. So we have seen huge results with the survivor who has been taught not to think when they understand what the neurobiological responses in their brain because these folks have been taught to understand what their brain's doing. They've been programmed into certain wave states, you know, like delta, theta, alpha, beta. They've been taught that little child would have been conditioned to stay in a beta wavelength in her mind. So they get, when we're talking about the brain development and that there's someone stuck in limbic, which is the back of their brain, they understand it. I know that prayer ministers or people hearing us might think, oh my gosh, I've got to be a PhD to help a survivor, but you really don't. Neither Audrey and I are, but the person sitting in front of you that has been hurt, they get this. Yeah, and they may not have had words that I was in delta wave, brain wave, but they understand that what they're in right now presenting to us feels like this. And oh my word, that's the words for it. And so even like everyone knows that a soldier that goes to war has post-traumatic stress and when he comes back, sounds will, you know, set that off. And everyone knows that that's a psychological thing and an emotional thing that needs to be worked through. That really is how we normalize it for a severe trauma survivor because it's the same. While there are spiritual dynamics that go with it, it's really neurobiologically based because researchers were researching on the brain to create whatever they wanted. You know, in the wider field of let's just be real wide here like religious studies. I mean, you'll run into things like, okay, the Eastern Yogi, that again, they train themselves, you know, through meditation or whatever technique to, you know, again, using broad terminology to move in and out of altered states, you know, different states of consciousness. And this has been known for decades, you know, that this can be done. So, you know, on the sort of horrific negative side, you know, you have someone conditioning, you know, a child, you know, training a child's both the brain and then the child to sort of recognize this. And, you know, for whatever purpose, be in one or not the other. And that's really what, again, in very lay terms, and again, probably committing some imprecision here, but that's essentially what you're talking about. So you're talking about a sort of a phenomenon that has been recognized for a long time in other areas of research. It just so happens that there's an overlap with all this awful stuff. And again, the very manipulative kind of thing, you know, that people have been exposed to just broadly. And we should mention here that it doesn't, I mean, you're going to get people that weren't, you know, you will get people, I know, because, you know, you've talked to them or talked to me about them. They're cases that aren't sort of trained, you know, intentionally, but because they've suffered repetitive trauma in some other way, that you get the same sort of thing going on. Yeah, I think that's key to say that dissociation is on a spectrum. So we have someone who has suffered trauma based mind control, that's going to be the most severe spectrum, but actually anyone that has gone through even an episode of sexual trauma or any kind of trauma, what we do even helps them. It really is across the board. I think overall human beings need to understand their own makeup and how they are human. And I think that's an important piece of this as well. Now, Audrey mentioned, you know, some of the supernatural aspects. So what is the relationship between trauma based association and again, what would, what many listeners I'm sure are thinking of in terms of sort of traditional, you know, demonization, deliverance ministry, because what we're describing to this point isn't that, but there is a relationship. So can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah. And a survivor, you know, if we give an example of a survivor that has been as a child brought up to be made to split her mind into into different neurobiological thoughts and moods, which was what we would call a part. So in a sort of an alter in another terminal, another part of the person. And so in, in a setting where there's a programming session, there's a bunch of kids and someone is going to get traumatized. And there's a 17 year old who says, okay, I'll take the place of that seven year old. And so she takes that place and the whole way they're heckling, are you want this? You, you're, this is what you, you chose this, you're really, you really are evil. So this is your life. And so she goes through the trauma and it's horrendous. And in that powerless place, what she's just been told is she's evil and she's, it's her choice. So she'll reach for a cosmic entity to help her get through that moment. Right. So like instead of crying out to God, it can be a different entity or something that she's been taught to reach for. Something that has power when she's powerless. And then that and growing up as a child, God wasn't there for her. So what's more powerful? I'll take that. Yeah. See, and from the 17 year old there has already practiced this many, many, many times. But when you go back to the child who's three and I'm going to get graphic here. So Trey, if you need to edit it out, you just, so the child is on an altar, being raped, going to be raped. And she does not even have the words for this. There's no words for this. And they have her ask for, go ahead and ask for Jesus to come. So someone comes out dressed as Jesus and then he rapes her. Well, that didn't work so well for her. So the next time it's same ritual, same thing. They said, call for Lucifer, who is your father. Well, so she learns even though it's so abhorrent for her heart, there is so much sensory distortion. And she can't even have a reasoning mind. It is survival now. That's a different part of her brain. She's in survival now and she just wants to live. So she'll go reach through the defilement and then yuck of the darkness power. And she'll grasp on to Lucifer, her father. So I think it's important here because when, you know, when a lot of Christians sort of read about the occult or Satanism or something, they're reading about people who willfully, you know, want to tap into supernatural powers because, you know, this is going to give me power. It's going to give me XYZ. That same sort of wanting, for lack of a better term, wanting this attachment again for whatever purpose, you know, so you're describing a child is going to have that mechanism to reach for that thing, so that, you know, they can get like material wealth or prestige or what, you know, the typical occult Satanist kind of mentality, but they're doing it because they want whatever is being done to them to stop. And so you do that repeatedly and it sort of trains them to attach themselves or some part of themselves to that thing. You know, let's pause there. When there, a survivor is reaching for an entity, she or he is choosing life. They don't want to die. They're choosing to live and choosing life is Christ. They don't know it at that moment, but that's what their heart is. They want to live. And this is what was powerful, reaching for a cosmic intelligent evil, because they've been told their evil, their whole life. And so why not? But it really is out of a place of love for them, their own heart to choose to live. And now look what you just brought up, Mike. That's what we're talking about. See, while that ritual sounds horrible, and it is horrible, it's at most of us recoil inside. When we hear this level of trauma all the time, and this is what a survivor's lived through. But if the perpetrators were after the attachment tear to put in the belief that the child is not redeemable, because if you can get that set into a three year old by the time they're eight and you need to start building assassins, they already believe they're evil. So to start killing other little kids or whatever along the way, they're going to be taunted that they've already attached to Lucifer, to the dark side, to this. So it wasn't about that they wanted to, they brought a Luciferian Richelin or a Satanist Richelin to practice Satanism. It was for the goal to tear attachment and distort the identity of the child so they have no understanding of imaging God. None. Yeah. For our listeners, you've already heard some references again to supernatural beings, imaging God. Again, we're going to get at some point in our discussion today. Hey, how does my content, what does that do to help? How did you all sort of run into each other and connect and it actually amounted to something? You're getting a little bit of a glimpse of that at this point. It's really kind of interesting to me that, again, going back to pop culture, other than the two things that I mentioned, you know, the movie split and then Stranger Things. And Stranger Things especially, it's well done in a lot of aspects, but they actually took a lot of, you know, they don't have a lot of the one character, Eleven, she's a survivor and she has these powers and whatnot, but they actually took some of what was done to her when you're watching the show. You don't have to have her have flashbacks so that you know, like, what in the world is going on with this kid? And they took that, you know, from MK Ultra Research. I mean, they took it right out of that. And, you know, like she has to, you know, kill a cat and do things to other, I don't want to, you know, say too much about the show, but she has to do things that she obviously, any normal, you know, kid, who doesn't have this done to them all the time, would be conflicted about. She's still conflicted, but, you know, she knows if she doesn't obey and she doesn't do this, what's going to happen to her and all this other stuff. So they took that right out of the research. It's the same thing like with Captain America Winter Soldier. There, it's a little more visceral because you're dealing with an adult probably, you know, Hollywood gets away with more there, but it's the same kind of thing. You know, what you actually see, maybe not the way it's portrayed in terms of the outcome, the powers and all that and sort of the more fantastic elements of science fiction. But there is some of that going on in the real world. And what's done to these people is sort of just like sucked right off the page of what you would read in a, in an MK ultra study. So that, yeah, that stuff actually happens to people and it's perpetrated, you know, against people, children for, you know, these quote unquote research purposes. And what you guys do is essentially deal with the aftermath, trying to help people process that and recover. Yeah. Well, I do appreciate the analogies to the the movies and the shows that are out there. I do want to say I've never saw those movies and shows. And I just want to say that for every one of the folks that come to see us, I would say that trauma survivors, those who have survived trauma based mind control, this purposeful perpetration, for me, they are the most loyal. They are the most gifted folks in the body of Christ. They have taught me more about how to love. And I've been in the church for almost 40 years. And for me, you know, when I think of David's Cave of Adolam, all the distressed and that, but they're the mighty men for me and those I minister to, I would have them stand with me anytime in that. So I don't, I know that they've come out of the trauma, but I always, I only see the heart and I think Audrey's right there with me. I only see the heart of Jesus and how much they've loved. And they've taught me a whole lot about that. So I just want to say, sometimes we say, well, what are the folks, you know, like really, because you only have a backdrop of a movie or something. And I'm like, no, these are the most loving people that I've ever met in my life. And when you always stay connected to the heart of them, even the places and the moments of messy is really just communication. It really isn't, it's not behavior as far as aberrant behavior, it's communication. And so when you can stay connected to the heart, you understand the communication of some of the behavior. Well, let's transition a little bit then. Again, referencing, you know, just broadly the people that you've come into contact with, that you've worked with, how do they find you? I mean, how do survivors sort of find Fern and Audrey and get started? How does that happen? Well, before the podcast, it was really word of mouth and who knew us and knew of other survivors and they just gave us, gave them our name. But we have had referrals from the podcast quite frequently from Trey and you, Mike. And so it's probably at least one or two a week sometimes. Yeah, I can, I mean, I don't know how many emails Trey gets to refer, but that's not very far off. I mean, one or two a week, I mean, it's a good number, you know, when you would put our people contacting each of us, you know, separately together. Yeah, we do offer a free 50 minute Skype time with folks that connect with us if they'd like that. And usually, Mick Lack has been really gracious in covering that for us and meeting that. And we, there was over nine hours in just last month that we spent time with folks that came through the Fern and Audrey podcast from you and Trey. So is that at least right now? Is that typically how the process begins for somebody? Typically, yes. We do have, it is all by word of mouth. The website is not even presented as what we do. It's really just showing you when you're going to come to see us. This is where you'll be. This is what you'll find. So we're doing no marketing at all. We have no strategy for marketing. When, like after the procedurally, okay, someone says, yeah, I'd like to have a Skype call and you have the Skype call. And I would imagine that's the point where you have to start talking to the person about making appointments and whatnot. And can you just describe that a little bit? Yeah, that's when it comes to the tough part because there is a fee involved with coming to see us. And let's just talk about that a little bit since that is one of the questions. Walking into a nonprofit, we are asking for folks to help us with that. But the fee is $120 for a 50 minute session. If someone's going to be traveling to come see us, 50 minutes is not a place to start. Typically, we have folks come for three to five days of ministry if they're coming from any significant, you know, place to fly into CS. So if they're doing a four day intensive, they're going to do, that's going to be six hours a day. So that's 24 hours of ministry. And the overnight stay is minimal. It's $25 a night. And we ask them if they would please just bring their own prayer or minister person, their support person. The ministry is, we didn't want them just there by themselves. We wanted someone else with them. They're looking at attunement, attachment, relationship, and for the journey for them. So you're looking at for four day intensive, just the ministry. That's not them getting there, running a car, flying in or whatever. It's a little over $3,000 for four days a week. Yeah, which is why, you know, we started the GoFundMe campaign, which in, you know, when you guys get your tax exam status or even now, you know, we can start phasing that out. So people who would would be donating to this. And there have been a number of people in our audience that have donated through McLot, you know, the, the GoFundMe campaign to Fern and Audrey. That's going to, you know, transition over to your site because you're able to take donations at your site now. Correct. And so it'll be a little, it'll be a little less clunky. Yeah. But, you know, that it's been helpful. We'd like to, of course, see, see more of that done. We'd like to max out your time, you know, and do as much of it as, as we can. But this is what both of you do full time. This is not a side hustle. This is a little part time evening job. This is, here's how we get our income or not kind of situation. Correct. Yeah. This, this is our, what we spend our life doing. Yeah. And for a survivor of four day intensive time, they typically will need to come back two or three more times in a year for, for them to get their mind back and know their own heart. It after decades of trauma, it's, it's a journey. It's not a sprint. Right. Right. It's not a quick fix by, by any stretch of the imagination. One of the things this might relate a little bit to some of what we, we've already talked about, but this past week during our discussions, I, I, one of the, one of the more helpful sort of phrases or characterizations of what you guys do versus again, what might be called a more traditional deliverance ministry or even exorcism that sort of thing is that I don't know which of you set it and it might have been one of the other people in the room. Um, said something like instead of picking fights, either, you know, you know, in other words, confrontations with a demon or some supernatural entity, instead of picking fights, you're focused on helping survivors know themselves know the love of Christ. And just frankly, scriptural truth, you know, speaking truth to them. So that that's a dramatic difference in how you are sort of sitting face to face with a person what what's actually happening between you. So, you know, the picking fights is, you know, kind of the Hollywood ish characterization of dealing with this demonized person. And that isn't it at all. I mean, that that's just not what's going on here. No, no, I think I'm just going to go into the example of a ministry session we had recently. And the the gal has come to see us for about four years now and she really can process well. So she sits down and she smiles at us and she says, I want to talk about my mom. I hate my mom. I think I want to kill her. And we smile back and we say, so you feel everyone who's involved in that emotion and that thought process. Because what she's feeling, the one that's sitting down in front of us is the one that presents that does life. That's the Christian. She comes to therapy, but there's others inside that she's feeling that wants to kill her mom. And as giving communication, there's something here. It's time for you to look at this. So it's not about we're resolving an issue that she's got a conflict with her mom present day. It's a language that she feels it. We talked about where all do you feel that that when you say those words, I want to kill my mom. I don't like my mom. Where do you feel that we're just letting her experience that language, that emotion. So that then she starts feeling and seeing the separateness of each of those pieces. Okay. And while we're unpacking that she has a three hour session. So what I'm going to tell you in like eight minutes is going to three hours session. So we start identified and she's the one identifying. I can feel this. This is different. She may even have shifted into a little girl along the way because that's who held the trauma, the little girl. When the little girl came out and was talking with us, everyone else back here that had all the other emotions were there too. They were working together. It's relational. We're talking. It's relational. There's some laughter with it because it's just the little girl made a joke. It just was just relational. Meanwhile, everyone in the room is feeling an edge. Audrey and I and the gal we're working with. And the gal says, I do feel it. And Audrey said, the cosmic is there. Yes. She goes, yes, I feel it. Wasn't addressed. We evaluated the mindset of what she had about it. It's rather looking at her when she said that saying, you know, come out of her or whatever. We're staying because this is the point. Remember, imagine that when this connection was made, the overwhelm of that little girl, there was no reason. Prefrontal cortex wasn't online. The front of the brain wasn't online. She was back here. So the decision was made back here in limbic to get safe. It was a survival moment. Right now, she's feeling the option. She understands the mindset. That mindset was familiar to her. She thought it was hers. And the mindset is disdain for humanity. Just kill, steal, destroy. And so we just stayed there and we were tracking with this little girl. Meanwhile, the current age gal was there too. And they're all talking to us about, this is what this feels like. I didn't realize that wasn't me. So a new brain pathway is developing that has never developed because they always went into limbic and connected to be able to kill. And that's how we do it. We work with someone. We let them feel that and the strong sense of themselves connected in Christ. That's when it's just over. They connect there and they go, I don't want this anymore. I don't need this. Yeah, we stay in love and darkness doesn't want anything to do with love. So they back away with the choice she made to stay in love. And that's why with traditional prayer ministry, the picking of a fight like you said, Mike, is it's a power encounter. It's trying to match the power of an intelligent evil. And that's not who we are as humans. Now just imagine if when, because we all felt it, we all sensed the mindset, we all could recognize, we could all discern it. If I would have shifted and then kind of settled into the warfare stance. And you know, you the Lord Jesus revealed you to us now, we're in authority in the name of Jesus Christ. And I would have moved into that. You essentially move on to that turf. Yeah, it's a fear response of a prayer minister and they you that prayer minister just walked into darkness's realm. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's it's having the other it's having the the supernatural side pick the fight and you say, OK, let's do that. Yeah, game on, you know, kind of thing. Exactly. So you see in relationship and attuning with the fact that there was memory of why she hated her mom. There was real memory. And it was a right response to say, oh, my word, my mom's powerlessness. She's getting hurt right alongside of me and she's the one hurting me. So it's a right response. We helped the little girl grieve that she was powerless. She didn't she made a decision herself. She didn't want to connect to that anymore. And so there was an understanding of all of this convoluted emotional package that she sat with at the beginning of our session. She had understanding to the whole thing and she could settle in all aspects of her that got through that trauma could settle into the identity of I belong to God. Would it be fair to characterize it this way? So instead of let's just take this this other this part again, the one that wants to kill instead of viewing that as a demon to be cast out. Instead, what what you're doing is you're helping, you know, you're, I don't know how to your patient or the person that that's come to you. You're helping them instead develop a new pattern of recognizing that Jesus is superior to that. They are actually loved by him. He's not their enemy. In other words, all these these thought patterns and they want that they develop a pattern of choosing that instead of the other. Is that what's going on? I would say that that is what we're doing. But we demonstrate it. We don't use words. Okay. And we go back to the words they have given us about their words about their relationship with God. And we say, you see, the love was always there. So it's like a process of helping them understand and affirming the delegitimization of the thing that seeks to manipulate them or how they were taught and what they were grasping for kind of kind of a shift of allegiance or a shift of understanding. Yeah. And I want to bring back in the point of imaging and how in trauma-based mind control, they're dehumanized so that they don't recognize that edge is an intelligent evil. We're helping them understand what it is to be human where they can image out of who they were originally designed to be and not in this place of always in a defensive posture in darkness's realm. I think that's really key. This idea of being dehumanized and trauma-based mind control, you could hear just by the few stories that we've told and other things that you know that these little children were not allowed just to be human. They had to be superhuman. They had to be able to get the strength of a cosmic to kill. They had to be able to endure not being able to breathe or they had to know how to stop their body from having an arterial bleed or whatever. They had to know how to psychically manage everything. And even at the very basic place is to not have emotions like humans do. So this dehumanization is really one of the goals. And so I see where we connect strongly with divine counsel stuff is this idea of imaging and just what it is to be human, the position of being a human. While those words are just real small, their divine counsel brings a whole concept of just depth of community, family. This is why everything is that God did so much more. The divine counsel metaphor and theology that you guys have found the most useful that has the most impact is really the family stuff, the relational stuff, the imaging stuff. As opposed to this judicial kind of, okay, we're in the counsel courtroom, whatever, law court, and now we're going to sort of declare a verdict and tell what's his name to get lost or something like that. That setting and that metaphor is more confrontational as opposed to this other stuff because the other stuff really is attachment to the right things and the right person, building the right loyalties, thinking the right thoughts about Jesus, about God, and so on and so forth. And having emotions is okay, grieving loss is normal, wanting to be with another human being in relationship is exactly what God's design is for us. That is foreign to someone who has undergone this level of trauma. You know, if that's the case, you can see how someone who, again, in sort of a traditional prayer ministry approach, there is an assumption, at least a bit of an assumption, maybe a huge assumption on the part of, you know, maybe a pastor, prayer minister, whatever, that the person they're trying to help even is able to comprehend this, or even find it attractive at any level and they just sort of don't. But I think we have a series of things, you know, again, from this past week that I wrote down that I wanted to talk about. We might have touched on this, but what might surprise people about survivors, I think you talked a little bit about that already that, you know, who they are as, you know, as people despite again some of these other, right word manifestations that, you know, these these bad relationships that they might have built up in their lives. Anything else that you sort of took away, or heard this week may or maybe even going back to the North Port because that was your, in terms of sort of being out in the public. That was the first time that, you know, we tried that. Either that or again, sort of the meeting, you know, the last couple days, anything else you would want our audience to sort of know about either survivors or what you do, some of the obstacles maybe before we wrap up. I have two things going on in my mind. First of all, I just want to say that in typical prayer ministry coming out of the church for survivors in particular, which is very rare, because most modalities don't include the association of survivors. They look at this as it's a psychological and a spiritual component. And I think we have to look and be a thinking people to be able to see the research that has come out in regards to trauma, not psychology in regards to trauma and what trauma does to the brain. And we have to realize that trauma affects the organic brain. And we have to be aware of how that does that. And so it is going to be a paradigm shift to be able to minister to these people in that way. We're not abdicating that any kind of spiritual involvement. But what happens is if you jump off and just go into the spiritual involvement, like taking them to a court of appeals or something like that, what you'll end up doing is creating. Let me give you an example. When you have a child that's under duress, and they they're told to get away from that duress by going into a castle and getting safe. And now that child, anytime there's a hint of duress, physically, emotionally, mentally, relationship, rupture, whatever, they'll just go into the castle. Now they're sitting in front of a prayer minister, and now we're taking them into the dimensions to get their parts back. Do you see where we just took them? We didn't take them into a spiritual realm. We took them into their psychological phenomenology in their own head, their own picture of what's going on. And that's what's going to happen every time when we immediately jump right into a spiritual dynamic, because you see that they had rituals or something done. It's going to harm them. So I really want to encourage... There's been whoever's doing this to them and training their mind in the process has already anticipated that sort of thing. I'm wondering if that's the case, Mike. I'm wondering if that's the case. So I just want to... One of the things that you heard me this weekend was I was concerned that people would hear our approach and they would say, well, it's all psychology. It's not anything based in biblical stuff. It is very much based in biblical stuff and the foundation that Jesus Christ is the healer. But we're letting that person think and use their mind to get back to the place of who they are designed to be. And that's a thinking, reasoning, human being that has emotions and volition. Now, before we do wrap up, you've had a pretty considerable response of people from this audience who want to be trained. Or I want to learn how to help Fernanandri or I want to learn to do what they do. And you've sort of taken steps to go down that road to develop something. So let's talk about that. Yeah, right now Fernanandri are in the process of making a curriculum and the gal that helps transcribe the podcast is coming alongside of us. Kudos to Brenda. So we're the mouth and she's the pen. So that is coming along so that we can have times that people who want to know how to work with people and love them and not harm them can do so. And I do want to say we did keep a list. We have a list of 35 of you folks that say, hey, when you get this ready, if you're going to do anything, let us know. We do have that in our database. And if there's others, let us know because we are further in the process than last time we did the podcast. And it's first and foremost on our list to get this curriculum finished. Do you have any idea of a timetable? Did Brenda give you any idea of a timetable? There's no timetable. We are really working hard on that. Brenda, for those of you who know her, Brenda is very organized. And so I was just wondering if she has sort of laid that out for you already. She's probably not going to transcribe this part. We love you, Brenda. Thank you. Well, that's good. So yeah, thanks again for sharing some of your time with us and hopefully this is a both maybe in some respects, a good introduction to what you two do. We've had prior episodes, episodes, what 68 and 149 are sort of the key ones. We've had, you know, other ones with with Beth. But if you want to sort of zero in on Fern and Audrey, those are the two episodes. I think 149 Beth is in that one as well. Yeah, that was the follow up to the earlier one. But those are the two key episodes. If you want to learn more Naked Bible Podcast episodes 68 and episode 149. So again, for those who haven't listened to them, this is I think is a sufficient introduction. If you have listened to those, then you've got a good update. Things are progressing here. And one more time, the new website. DiscoveryMercy.org. Right. And if you land on that website, you will be able to contribute directly to Fern and Audrey's ministry. We will certainly, you know, give an announcement when they, you know, get the final approval of their tax exempt status. We will leave the GoFundMe campaign running because McClot does have tax exempt status currently. So just to heads up when they get their own tax exempt status, we'll phase one out and, you know, direct people to the other. Yeah, and absolutely be looking forward to Naked Bible Podcast with some more ideas on how to support the survivors. And also we would encourage churches. If you know somebody or have somebody in your community or congregation, please contact Fern and Audrey on their website, discoveringmercy.org. And yeah, I think you said in passing this week that there are several churches that are sort of waiting again to get your exempt status to jump in and help. So yeah, absolutely. Go ahead. They are. That's great. We'll keep a lookout for more. We always enjoy having Fern and Audrey on the show. We appreciate what y'all do. And we appreciate everybody out there supporting us and them. And with that, Mike, I just want to thank everybody for listening to the Naked Bible Podcast. God bless. Thanks for listening to the Naked Bible Podcast. To support this podcast, visit www.nakedbibleblog.com. To learn more about Dr. Heiser's other websites and blogs, go to www.brmsh.com.