 Good evening everyone. If you all would begin to take your seats, we'll get started. I want to be true to our time. I want to respect your time for being here tonight and try to get us out on time. Good evening again. I am Pamela Wideman here on behalf of the city of Fort Worth as the executive recruiter. We're gonna go ahead and get started tonight. This is your recruitment process for the police oversight monitor. Tonight you'll have an opportunity to hear from the two finalists for this recruitment. I understand that there has been an open comment period for you all to submit questions. However, if you have not been able to submit questions, if you will just kindly go back to the table and submit your questions and then at the end we will, we want your voices to be heard. We appreciate you being here. If you will submit your questions on the comment card, we will get them asked. And so some of those are being passed around as well. I'm gonna get out of your way. You are going to hear from the two candidates. They're gonna get an opportunity to introduce themselves, tell you a little bit about themselves. And then Mr. Estrus Tucker will be moderating the conversation tonight. We have a set of meaty questions that you all have submitted for the panelists and so they'll get a chance to answer those. So again, thank you for being here. And at this time, I will turn it over to Mr. Tucker and then he will ask the candidates to introduce themselves and proceed with the remainder of the questions. Mr. Tucker. Thank you Pamela. Good evening. And even though our two finalists know something about Fort Worth and have engaged and spoken to many, let's give them a Fort Worth Lake Como welcome by applauding them and welcome them to this space. The Office of Police Oversight Monitor was established in February 2020. The site monitor, the inaugural Police Oversight Monitor. The incomparable Kim Neal, please join with me and welcoming and applauding. Thank you, Kim, for the incredible legacy that you have gifted us. Thank you for being present today. And wow, do we have two incredible candidates to step into your shoes and beyond, but acknowledging and recognizing Kim Neal. And also what Pamela lifted up, I know you have questions because I see them on your face. Please don't neglect to fill out a comment card. We've got a lot of questions already in. If I ask all of them, we'll be here to midnight. Some of you probably would stay. I can't stay that long. So we're going to consolidate, but every question is important. And even if we're not able to ask your question exactly as you framed it, we're committed to working as much of it in as we can with these existing questions we're going to ask. And all the questions, our two candidates, will get all the questions unless, unless you're writing your question at midnight. If you waited that long, there's no commitment that that will get in. But please complete the comment cards now. All right, enough said. Center stage tonight will be on Michelle in Phillips. Michelle, wave your hand. And Bonceal, succumbed. Did I say that right? Show could be. All right. But Bonceal, I got that right. So more than likely, I will be referring to Michelle and Bonceal. I know I can get those right. So let's start off by hearing their voice with some opening remarks. And we're going to try to frame the questions and the opening remarks and closing remarks in a way that we get to hear both. And we really want to go reasonably deep enough that they can have space to respond. But in a timely manner, so that we can get finished a little before nine, so you can get out of your seats and see Michelle and Bonceal up closer and greet them in a way befitting of Fort Worth and Lake Homo hospitality. So I'm going to alternate opening remarks and then closing remarks and each of probably about seven questions, somewhere between seven and 17, but probably closer to seven. So I want to invite Michelle first and followed by Bonceal for opening remarks and probably about five minutes. I'm not going to stop or interrupt you, but so close to no more than five minutes. Just some opening remarks of what you would like our neighbors, our residents to know about you and this important office. Michelle. Thank you. First, I want to say good afternoon to such an amazing group of individuals, residents, elected officials, city leaders, community activists for coming out and supporting this panel and for supporting civilian oversight of the police department. My name is Michelle Phillips. I am a practitioner of civilian police oversight. I have been in civilian oversight and governmental oversight as a whole for approximately eight years. I'm extremely happy to be here to hear and listen to some of the concerns that the residents in Fort Worth have regarding their public safety entity and how it services the community, how I got into police oversight. I am a former correctional officer. I became a correctional officer when I was 19. I went behind the wall. That's what we call it went behind the wall because I needed to make sure I had a job and I know a lot of us understand that. But while I was behind the wall, I saw a lot of things I wish I could unsee. I saw black men. I worked at male institutions being disrespected, being demeaned and not afforded opportunities to rehabilitate, which then had this recidivism issue. They just kept coming back and coming back and I was like, well, what can I do to help people, quite frankly, people that look like me more? So I was like, okay, let me start looking into policing on the front end. So then I started working in police science research. That's what I call it police science research. So I started working at the National Police Foundation looking at critical incidents and police responses to critical incidents, mass shootings, prison riots and how they interact with marginalized communities and how it was disparities and how they would respond to other communities collecting data looking at officer involved shootings and and trying to figure out how can we help create a safer community? How can we help to have a better response as public servants without putting on a badge, accountability, transparency and integrity in that. So I went to the federal law enforcement training center and I got my investigative training by the federal government so that I could help hold police accountable. And what does that look like and what does that mean? Collaborative involvement, policy reform, fair, firm and impartial investigations that go from front to back and making sure that the community understands that we are here and somebody is looking. When you have a police oversight entity that doesn't talk to you, that doesn't engage with you, that doesn't show you how to hold the police accountable. It's problematic. So that's why I'm very happy that the community is here because without community there would be no police oversight. I'm the inspector general for the city of Oakland and I tell people all the time the Black Panther Party was mad and upset that they were dealing with police brutality. That is the impetus of how we started to talk about police accountability and those disenfranchised communities that needed folks to come in and say, hey listen, police officers, y'all can't do whatever you want to do just because you have a badge and a gun. You are supposed to be held to a higher standard. But there is also that line that we need to make sure that we are not anti or pro. What we want to do is get to the truth. We want to educate. We want to bridge gaps so that we have a safer community and what does that look like for the city of Fort Worth and how we can come together and understand that through policy reform, through education. That's my passion to fix problems, to help to engage the community to meet folks where they are, to bring them where I am so that we can do this together. Not only community members, but police officers as well. You have to understand and acknowledge that you may think that you're okay and you're right, but the perception from the community is you're wrong. So how can we sit together and have those conversations? That's why I'm here in the city of Fort Worth. I know there is a lot of support the former monitor miss Kim is here and she let in. She laid an amazing foundation. The community members and the activists, the staff members are committed to fair processes and transparency impartiality and integrity. That's why I'm here to help to bring that to the forefront to ensure that they're a stable leadership, longevity, and growth in the opal office as we move forward to effective constitutional policing in the city of Fort Worth. Thank you. Excellent. Thank you, Michelle. And before Bonceal, I want to ask our candidates, our finalists, as you speak, turn the mic on, as you finish, turn it off. It's going to be a little tricky that that keeps some of the noise down. Thank you. And you were spot on five minutes, so great. All right. Bonceal. Good evening, everyone. I am thrilled to see each and every one of your faces here today. And it's part of the reason why I'm excited about this opportunity in Fort Worth. Seeing this amount of community engagement just for this position lets me know that this community is concerned and cares and is going to be involved in ensuring that there's accountability. My name is Bonceal Schopenby. I am involved in a police oversight in the city of New Orleans. And I started my career in the criminal justice field and criminal law over a decade ago. I am a lawyer by training. I'm not barred in Texas quite yet. I've been working on that process. But I started as a prosecutor. And I've told the story a few times today, so forgive me if you've heard it. But I started as a prosecutor in the very first case that I tried ended up being overturned. It wasn't because the jury didn't believe that the defendant had committed the crime. It wasn't because I had made some gross error in misstep. It was because the police officers involved in the investigation participated in misconduct. They were stealing money from confidential informants. So that meant that the individual who had been properly convicted, that a jury of their peers said that they should be held accountable for the crimes, then went back into that community. So I was the first knock on my shoulder of there's something not quite right about this. I met with the administration in the district attorney's office and you try to report these things and you start learning quite quickly that there are stillings and there are deaf ears. I continued on throughout my practice as a prosecutor and had the opportunity to prosecute three other officers for sexual misconduct. And I immediately learned what the red tape was and how that even though this officer had been accused at the time of molesting his niece, that he was still going to get paid by the department, that there was still not going to be an administrative investigation because they couldn't get all the information that they needed. And they were going to wait until the criminal investigation and conviction was done. But there was this beautiful thing called the officer bill of rights. There actually wasn't going to be accountability because we're out of timelines. I continued in this work and I dealt with suppression issues and things of this nature and realized that at this point I've reached the peak. I was dealing with murders and rapes, but I still wasn't being heard. And I was fixing cases in the district attorney's office that should have been fixed in the streets or in the offices of the police department. And having to deal with individuals who have lost their loved ones or been subject to harm and not being able to bring some sort of justice as we believe that it exists at the time because of police failures said, Bonsil, maybe your talents can be better used elsewhere. So from that point I transitioned into oversight directly. My first role was in community relations. I have a background in public relations. And so I said, this seems great. Let me get out of the courtroom for a little bit and breathe and let me engage with the community that I've been serving. I was dealing with people one on one, but let's meet with the organizations and hear their concerns and figure out how we can address those things. I was also instantly involved in use of force. I transitioned from that role to being the chief monitor of use of force where I monitor every critical incident that occurs within New Orleans police department. That means at two o'clock in the morning, my phone is going to ring and dispatch is going to let me know that something happened and I'm going to get out of my bed and I'm going to go to that crime scene. And I'm going to walk step by step with investigators to make sure that that investigation is constitutional and consistent with the policies and practices that have been set forth before the department because I believe having real-time feedback and recommendations is better than me coming out at the end and saying, gotcha, did you know you could have done that better? Let's ensure that was done properly in the beginning. Since then, I've transitioned to being the deputy police monitor where I oversee misconduct and discipline as well as use of force and serve as the chief of staff. Misconduct and discipline allows me to hear from the community directly. It allows for me to know the harms that are happening in the community and it allows me to take what you tell me as the officer wasn't nice to me and was disrespectful to me reviewing the body-worn camera footage with my intake and saying not only was that professionalism, but there is a list of other concerns that we have there. And so maybe this officer needs to be pulled off the street. Let's take your concerns and graph that in a formal letter and identify all of the allegations, the things that you just might not see and make sure that we have real change. From there, I participate in disciplinary hearings and policy recommendations and working with it on that level means that when I see something I immediately give the policy recommendation, I'm proud to say that with my involvement, I have not had one policy recommendation that's been refused from the department and I believe that that has rendered the city that I currently live in to be safer. I am in police accountability work to improve policing not only for the community but also the police department. I am passionate about this work. I believe both of us are. I don't think we'd be sitting before you if we weren't qualified and quite frankly passionate. I think the decision is who's the best fit for this community. I am committed to doing this work and I'm committed to doing this work long term. I stumbled upon it eventually but I believe with my skill set and my background it's where I'm really supposed to be. Wherever my career leads me next is where I want to be home and Fort Worth, the Dallas-Fort Worth Metro area is where I see myself being for the considerable future. So thank you for having me here today. Thank you for this engaging process. Thank you for making sure the voices of the community and everyone involved is heard and I am excited to see what happens with Oversight and Fort Worth. Excellent. Thank you Bonceil and both of you are excellent time managers. So that's a good start. We're going to start with question one and Michelle I'm going to invite you to respond first followed by Bonceil and I'm going to ask that you take about three minutes on this question but after each of you spoken then I'll come back Michelle to see where they're another minute if there's something you might want to add to it and do the same for Bonceil. Question one what do you believe the community's role in the office of police oversight monitor is in your view how can we in the community be involved in the process of oversight if at all? I think the reason why we have police oversight is because of the community because the community stood up and said enough is enough. I'm tired of being treated in a particular manner that is not constitutional. My civil rights and civil liberties are violated and we need to continue to hear those voices so I think community forms are very important. Open door is very important for any oversight office having working groups collaborative groups in the city of Oakland. There are ad hocs when we're doing policy reviews so that we hear from the community as we're drafting policies to present to city council that may have directly impacted you or a loved one as they interact with the police department so these are ways that we can start incorporating the community. You can start saying you know this happened to me I filed a complaint the police officer was not held accountable. Education well the police officer did what you said that they did however it was within policy so then now maybe we need to go ahead and take a look at this policy so that maybe we don't need to hold this police officer accountable but look at this pattern of practice and see if this is detrimental to the police interaction with the community and how we can change that and make that recommendation so that we have good policy reform. That's one way the community can help to start to mold what police oversight looks like in the city of Fort Worth. Additionally inviting us to come and see some of the issues the problems you tell us how we can help you how we can bridge that gap how we can start building trust so that the community feels safer while we're public servants police officers are public servants too but we are supposed to do just that serve the public so the community has to help mold and have a voice but it has to be a sound voice so having that dialogue consistently don't just come make a complaint leave because police oversight also has to be accountable too so you hold me accountable as I would ask you to be accountable if there is some change that you need to see come talk to us let us know what's going on because we can't help if we don't know thank you thank you Michelle same question Bonsil and each of you at any time if you'd like for me to repeat the question please I can do that community is essential to civilian oversight I believe I actually began with that before I am one person and I have but one set of experiences and I can only be but so many places I think the staff is up to around 11 now there's only so many places they can be in only so many things that you're going to observe even in running audits and doing all of the research there's only so much that you're going to know but what you're not going to know are the lived experiences of the persons who have suffered the harm or even they've had positive experiences with policing and so the role of the community is to remain engaged and to communicate with the office about what is happening so that we can move the department in the direction it needs to in the office's role is to support you in that having an informed public is essential this is the role of oversight this is what we can do and this is what we can't do more importantly this is what is happening this is the data this is what we can share out and making sure that you know how to use that information additionally I think it's important to inform the public on how they can be in the assistance so if you know of a harm that's happened in your own community don't wait till business hours when you can reach Bonsil how about you we go ahead and you speak to that individual you either help us get that information by going online or going to the website or you bring them to my door because you're the bridge to say hey there's some good things that are happening down there they're actually going to make sure that some changes come we can't promise anything and they're not going to advocate for you but what they are going to ensure that the policies and practice that are in place they're going to be followed what they are going to make sure is that if something did go wrong that policy recommendations are actually going to occur and so without having the community intently involved then you don't move it forward and you just simply have what's being reported out and what's being regurgitated from whoever's interested is you have to challenge even the data that you receive I think we've all heard that you can make numbers say anything and so adding voices to what those numbers are and what that actual experience is helps challenge the narrative and that's why community so important for civilian oversight and it's absolutely essential without having the community I don't know how much forage you can move a police department thank you Michelle about a minute anything you want to add to your opening words on this question so I would go ahead and add a little bit more about what what my colleagues said the data right there's trust and integrity and credibility in that data and the information that is provided a lot of times we have a police report but who writes them the police officer right so you are supposed to have a voice you have of course access to police reports if information is not accurate speak up say something you know we want to empower you to speak up and to believe and understand that something will be done if nothing else you will be heard and then we'll go through a process to figure out how we can best remedy this this situation we need to not feel like you don't have a voice please speak up and say something that's the only way that we'll be able to get that data whether it's qualitative or quantitative data so that we can move police oversight forward hold the people that need to be held accountable accountable and work towards a safer forward thank you bonceal about a minute to add to your opening thank you question number two and bonceal will respond first followed by michelle a few moving parts to this question so I can repeat any of it as helpful the murder of Tatiana Jefferson took place here in Fort Worth what would you have in place to prevent another murder of a person of color at the hands of your officers first part what actions would you take to make certain that this doesn't happen again what would you work to reveal communities trust back anytime a community suffers that type of harm the first thing you have to do is take a step back acknowledge it hear the voices hear the pain and apologies need to be made before we start talking about accountability before we start talking about policies there needs to be a clear and open conversation about the pain now I'll be honest my staff has a mug for me that says feelings are not facts and I stand by that however fact feelings are very very important and until you address the hurt and the pain that the community is hearing you're not moving forward you're not repairing that distrust now if you talk about technically the policies and things I've been changed or a few things that I can immediately say and I believe that they're being done is when you look at having that type of calls for service why are we responding in that way when we're talking about responding in in hostile situations what are the tactics that we have in place and is there going to be accountability for those tactics when you I'm just going to be frank there were so many missteps that it seems like there there's so many missteps that I'm not certain how much policy change needed to happen aside from accountability for that officer in ensuring that it shouldn't have occurred in the first place we can keep building policies but that just shouldn't have had its basic policing we shouldn't have been there in the first place so that's forgive my pause but that's kind of where my heart sits in that one of if if we do the basics right if you just did the basic things right we wouldn't have to remember her name she'd be living her own legacy thank you Michelle so before I answer the actual question what I'll say is that we need to ensure that we provide our public safety officers every tool they need to succeed whether that is field training additional training bias-based policing training mediation conflict management emotional intelligence training so that they have the appropriate self-awareness to identify when things are escalating so they can self deescalate I'm going to be honest we are people of free will can we ensure something like that will not happen again no and that's a reality but what we can do is put mechanisms in place and partnerships with the district attorney's office to ensure that there is swift appropriate accountability I'm not going to sell you a dream to say that we can ensure that there will never be police misconduct I can't do that because someone will stand up get out of the bed had some type of fight with their partner walk outside go to work with a gun and their hip upset and they may hear something that will trigger them and something will happen and it's unfortunate but like I started off with my response giving them the appropriate emotional training emotional intelligence emotional resistance so that they can say hey listen I'm not feeling it today I'm a little angry today I might need to go ahead and take a day a mental health thing and then ensuring that our police department makes it okay not to be okay so that they don't feel stigmatized when they have to take a day off because they're not mentally all right we instill a lot of power and authority and our police officers and with that everybody knows it with great power comes great responsibility we have to be responsible for that we have to acknowledge when things are not going well let our commander know let individuals know I'm gonna have to take a day I need a mental health day and we have to as a city we have city leadership in here make sure that we have that particular type of environment to do that so properly preparing them and training them and not just on the front end constant annual training so that they have what they need all the tools to succeed and then hold them accountable when they don't use them thank you bonceil is there another minute you'd like to add anything I'm brief no thank you Michelle another minute you'd like to add anything all right thank you question three Michelle was go first and then bonceil question three says it is important that a police oversight monitor has law enforcement experience or at least a very good knowledge of what our police officers face regularly do you know what the 21 foot rule is in law enforcement please explain so I am a former correctional officer um and we learned this in the academy um I have not put on a uniform for a very long time but I want to say that 21 foot rule is that when you're ready to pull out your firearm to shoot an individual within 21 feet otherwise if you're outside of 21 feet then you know there's of course a lot more room for error um with the issue so making sure it not only that too but looking at the environment as well um so final answer thank you bonceil I believe Michelle is correct and I also believe that's the zone of danger as well is when you're responding with use of force um and I take it that you neither have additional comments on that question all right question four bonceil would start and Michelle follow how would you make community oversight of law enforcement efforts sustainable in Fort Worth so I think there's been a great start with the municipal ordinance um and I think that quite frankly it can be expounded upon um and more can be done to embed civilian oversight and to see it as a sense of permanency we've seen what's happened in Tennessee when the state decided that they didn't want oversight anymore so the city's wishes were no longer obeyed I also think that it's important to empower the community groups that exist outside of city government to be able to be civilian oversight so if for god forbid something goes awry that you've been informed you've been equipped that you can go to your council members and uh those entities to still cry out even if there's ever political pressure or qualms with the office or for some reason it no longer exists um those are the two main things that I think that can be done I think that Fort Worth is firmly set on having oversight it seems like that is something that is there's complete buy-in and I don't anticipate immediate changes but I think ensuring that everything that has been uh desired through all of the working groups is in the ordinance as well as remains at the center of when there is a meet and confer is important uh for maintaining civilian oversight but again if the office disappears knowing that you have informed and empowered community members to carry that light forward thank you Michelle I think honestly it starts in the office right as we evolve and we grow our office we ensure that we can sustain the work that we do and grow upon it and take that out to the community via transparent practices and what does that look like reports data dashboards to ensure that the community can take a look and see okay how many complaints you know is there a drop in complaints what type of complaints use of force are there issues with pursuits how many policy recommendations have you put forth and how many have been accepted so that is progress right so we continue to move the pendulum forward we as oversight practitioners are performance based I say it all this time I say it to my staff we are measured based on what we produce so ensuring that we invest in our staff so that they are top notch because that's the credibility that we get from the community if a community member comes and we have a transparent report on our website and they're poking holes in it questioning the evidence and I'm like well wait a minute so making sure that it starts in our house first and let the community the city stakeholders the community stakeholders know oh they're really a force to be reckoned with we need them the police department oh there's credibility there they're helping us to be a better police office so showing that there's collaborative effort so that we can have a better public safety ecosystem as we move forward and show our value and how we are supported and how we are important to the city of forward thank you and since both of you are putting it all out there first go around I will just let go of that follow-up minute you don't seem to need it well done question number five and we'll begin this one Michelle and then Bonceal what is your vision for the first 60 days of your tenure first thing is first um I'm going to go ahead and do a needs assessment right I don't know what we need until I know what we need so getting the input from the community getting the input from our staff members seeing where the gaps are seeing where the issues are and then start working on a strategic plan so that we can set goals that are measurable to show what we are going to do I definitely want to you know make sure that the mediation program is implemented that's something that Ms. Kim finalized in her last days it's important to the community it's a way so we can start having that dialogue in the city of Oakland I wrote that recommendation because we don't have one that's a staple in police oversight and community relations with policing ensuring that we build relationships because I can't do it without the community there are people in this room that can go in spaces and places they don't think I can I say you don't think I can because I'm ready to go wherever we're needed to go but I don't know what I don't know so I think that that's very important I'm not going to come in and say we're doing this we're doing that we're doing this no we're going to see what's working and what we can tweak to make sure it works better and support the staff because sometimes change is difficult I know Ms. Kim was very much loved and she left the staple and huge she used to fill but that's okay because there's an oversight community that quite frankly both of us can come fill those shoes and run and take it to the next level to ensure that we do what we need to do so community engagement and relations ensuring that the staff feel supported doing a needs and risk assessment based off of what we have what we don't have and then taken into the city manager and assistant city manager and letting them know listen this is what I think we need to make sure that we are a viable stable solid office to continue to move forward there's are going to be similar because I think they're just some best practices but coming in the first thing I'm going to do is do listing tours but in addition to listening to the community what I want to look at is what's happened at OPOM over the last three years I think in 2021 there were over 250 community events and engagements let's sit down and look at who's been touched who are we communicating with and figure out not only based off of demographic and locality but who are we missing what voices are we not hearing from who will we tap multiple times that we know we know their concerns and we're going to keep them to the forefront but we have some marginalized communities who are still suffering harm that maybe we're not we're not hearing from quite as much or maybe we have some people who just want to tell us what they think a police oversight in everyone is a part of the community so after sitting down and evaluating who we've talked to who already know I'm going to have to talk to and who we need to talk to then it's time to start talking strategy we're talking strategy with the staff we're talking strategy with the community members and understanding the landscape I can read about fourth work all day I can listen to every podcast YouTube video and city council meeting but until I'm here and I learn and hear from these actual voices and hear the lived experience it's not time to move forward sitting down with the staff and understanding these are the policies and I understand what your ordinance is I understand what the meeting confer is but what does this look like in policy and in practice what other assistants do you need what relationships are fragile and need to be supported where do you see a gap in the staffing alone that we need to feel making that assessment and immediately being prepared to go to the city manager to say this is what we need to fully function function in the office that's not fully staffed and while we're doing great things we're not doing everything we could for that community and it's a disservice to invest in the civilian oversight and not do it fully and of course of course moving forward the community police mediation program I know that was the last thing that was done I oversee community police mediation right now and it's something that I'm passionate about because when you have hurt people that want to be heard you have to create the spaces for them to be heard you have to give them the opportunity not just to speak to me and not to just come to a forum and let their voice be heard but to speak directly with the individual that they believe may have caused them harm and so that I think that's a programmatic thing that we can do immediately but in the first 60 days I'm listening I'm learning and I'm planning and then it's going to be time to execute a little bit thereafter thank you question six Boncel will respond first followed by Michelle how much experience do you have in leading directing managing and reviewing fact-based investigations please provide a qualitative response so I'll my shortcoming out front I'm not an investigator I'm a lawyer by training but I have been reviewing investigations whether it be criminal investigations or misconduct invasion misconduct investigations since June 2013 criminal law is what I do it is what I know law enforcement is what I know I can look at a report in five seconds and tell you issues I can tell you where the missteps are and things that might be trying to skirt away so I've spoken a little bit about my background as far as being a prosecutor and I've spoken about it involved in misconduct misconduct my level of involvement in the investigations isn't reviewing reports it's actually walking hand in hand with investigations to make sure that they are quality and constitutional investigations because there's two sides to the level of oversight it's not only are we holding the police officer accountable or making sure that they have a fair investigation but it's making sure that the investigation that's incurring is actually thorough and quality and so I've been doing that work day in and day out since September of 2018 I'm not an investigator I received some training in that regards but my specialty is in being able to review and monitor that and I think I'm qualified to do that as it fits under the model of oversight in Fort Worth at this time thank you Michelle well I'm an investigator and it is it's no slight at all the young lady sitting next to me is absolutely amazing and phenomenal and fully qualified but I grew up in an investigative model in the city of Baltimore we have an investigative oversight model so I was a special agent a line investigator and I worked my my way up as a we call this act a special agent in charge then an assistant inspector general the deputy inspector general and then now I'm the inspector general for the city of Oakland but I got my formal training as an investigator at the federal law enforcement training center um Glencoe if we call it Fletsey and I oversaw in the city of Baltimore the intake complaint process so I helped to triage the complaints ensure that they're the appropriate jurisdiction because we'll be honest sometimes people just call and want to file a complaint about a police officer it could be a Dallas police officer so we have to ensure that we vet educate and let them know we're gonna listen we're gonna hear you and then refer them to the appropriate entity or decide if we need to write a formal referral based off of whatever the complaint is so I've overseeing the intake process as well as the investigative process I grew up doing the investigations and then I started to oversee to ensure that there is integrity in the investigations I didn't supervise desk investigators some people think that administrative investigations we sit at a desk and we're just writing down things and we're reviewing stuff no to bond sales credit we go out to the office or involve shootings we walk around to ensure that the officers are looking at everything identifying the surveillance camera so that we have all of the evidence needed to review we're going through step by step walking with them in the city of Oakland there is a civilian investigative body called the community police review agency that does just that they will walk side by side with the police officer to make sure that they have the information that they need to provide a sound investigation that will hold up to muster and if it rises to the level of criminality then we have to ensure that we have a partnership and process with the district attorney to say hey listen would you like to prosecute this and then decide are we going to toll this administrative investigation in lieu of a criminal investigation and if we do then that's a DA's office has it if they decline to prosecute then we'll go ahead administratively and see based on the preponderance of the evidence if there is discipline that needs to be exacted so no the model here is not that but I am hopeful there will be civilian investigations for the city of Fort Worth because I think that we can definitely have very skilled trained individuals with the subject matter expertise to produce impartial fair investigations for the Fort Worth police department thank you question seven we'll begin with Michelle and followed by Bonsil question seven the use of force by police officers is a matter of critical concern both to the public and the police it is recognized that some individuals will not comply with the law or submit peacefully to arrest officers may be called upon to use reasonable force in order to perform their duties preserve the peace and make arrests can you speak on the topic of reasonable use of force by police I think yes so reasonable use of force is something that we all talk about right we're in the age of body-worn cameras and we understand that yes force has to be necessary in some instances so what is reasonable use of force meeting force with force making sure that you are not overdoing it you are not abusing your power you are not arbitrarily inflicting harm while you are trying to detain an individual have you used the minimal amount of force necessary to gain control of the situation and take this individual out of harm and ensure that this individual will not harm someone else and how do we do that body-worn camera processes and policies that govern when we interact so that we can go ahead and review this take a look at it was this takedown within policy inappropriate did they use excessive use of force unnecessary unnecessarily is this reasonable was this an accident not only body-worn camera footage but ensuring that we get all of the information witness testimony um and any other surveillance information to help to assess there are several mechanisms in place yes we have this word reasonable what is reasonable to you may not be reasonable to me so also educating the community and letting individuals know why this is within the confines of being reasonable based on this this and this these are the tactics that are used these are the tactics that are trained in the police department to help to gain control of this particular type of this particular type of incident so I think that that's the best way that I can describe how we can ensure that police officers are using reasonable force for the appropriate incidents but it's definitely a case by case basis and that's why we have use of force reviews for folks who don't know there are use of force reviews so that we can go ahead and take a look at was this force reasonable any time force is used and the opom office does have the ability to go and observe and if selected we will continue that practice to make sure that as they assess the reasonable acts of use of force that there is someone in the room that wants to ensure accountability with that thank you so I'm going to take Michelle's answer and add a little bit more to it so we can get a few more questions so additionally reasonableness as it relates to forces is defined the United States Supreme Court has come up with the grand factor to define and it's not exhaustive list but there's 25 plus reasons of why force may or may not be reasonable and Fort Worth has an exhaustive use of force policy for when you can use force on which types of force that you can use as I mentioned earlier I've worked in force and use of force for quite some time and where I want to see the conversation continue and where I want to see accountability is why did we end up in that situation in the first place because I'm glad to say and I'm glad to see when we have situations where the officer is cleared because I don't want to see harm come to the community where it wasn't reasonable however were your tactics appropriate did we even need to apprehend that individual could we let them go did they need mental health treatment is there a reason you couldn't use a lower level use of force and they had to go hands on and now you're involved in a net cold and I believe that's where a lot of the conversation is moving forward and force as we get video and BWC and other types of surveillance depending on how you feel on that I think the needle has to move forward to but how did we get here and not only how did we get here let's hold you accountable for the ways that we got here and expect more from our officers so it's laid out on what's reasonable but I think what's a little bit more murky is us ending up in the situations in the first place thank you question eight oh and let me admit to comment on this earlier toward those of you who have submitted questions thank you for printing words that I can read and not inventing words that I don't know what they are very good and clear questions so I want to say that earlier question eight and bonceil respond first followed by Michelle both of you have worked or worked in cities that have a pretty notorious reputation and history with respect to policing Baltimore and New Orleans that are also under consent decrees what meaningful positive change did you bring to policing in those cities I can keep this brief the latest thing I did was had the net cold policy revisited so if we all remember in 2020 after George Floyd everyone started to say oh we're going to ban net colds well New Orleans was already under a federal consent decree so we had already banned net colds the thing about policy is there's a lot of great area and so right after that we started to have a lot of net colds that came through the department I had a lot of concerns about how it was being applied and so I was able to provide quality feedback not only for future cases but the cases that were coming forward for how we need to review and how we needed to have accountability for net colds in New Orleans I've seen I believe six which is quite a large number of net colds recently and I've seen discipline for officers letting them know I get that you're a great officer I get that you've been here 26 years but a knee on the back of the neck which is something that technically within the policy would have just kept going through though we said we had a ban I was able to recommend that those things are being considered that it doesn't matter how long we're sitting there that we don't need to count the minutes and the seconds to say that it's problematic you don't need to end up there in the first place some things lead to death and so I've contributed to a lot of change in New Orleans I am proud to say I haven't had one policy recommendation that's been refused I have a great working relationship with the police department I believe they respect the work that I do I have helped improve community relations time and time again I've held the hands of crying mothers with their homicide investigators helping them get answers and so I don't want to limit the work to one thing but when you talk about tangible change that is coming from civilian oversight when I think about changing use of force policy swiftly and doing it in such a way that the department is responsive to it those are the things that I'm extremely proud of thank you thank you so the city of Baltimore the office of the inspector general's jurisdiction was a little different that jurisdiction we had jurisdiction of the entire city which included investigations regarding fraud waste abuse public corruption and misconduct which included all employees of the city elected officials as well as anybody doing business with the city so I think that one huge thing for the city of Baltimore was ensuring that there was a collaborative effort to do things the right way because we talk about the police department but the police department in different municipalities the chief reports to the mayor or the city administrator so is there accountability there you know are they allowing certain things to happen because it is in their best political interest and I'm not going to make this about politics by any means but the way that we helped to bridge that gap and to help to change policy was to make the office of the inspector general independent and make sure that we were in the IAD as we had jurisdiction we entered into an MOU with the Baltimore City Police Department the commissioner at the time and the inspector general when initiated a memorandum of understanding as to how we would move forward collaboratively with investigations so that as the police officer is in there interviewing a witness there is an OIG special agent in there also listening allowed to write down questions to be asked there are a lot of protections we also started talking about recommendations as they were negotiating the FOP contract recommendations about how police officers spend their time and holding them accountable because quite frankly we also need to think about how they respond to us out in the field what mechanisms are they using are they abusing the vehicles and mechanisms as city taxpayers pay for right are they misusing them are they using them as weapons in pursuits and looking at the pursuit policy to ensure that there is not unintentional casualties is the crime appropriate to pursue that this particular police officer might pursue someone in a crash happens somebody passes away because of a traffic stop a minor traffic stop so those types of recommendations the IG's office continues to move those recommendations forward to city council as well a lot of those if not most of those from the commissioner at the time were enacted and then they helped to collaboratively work with us and there was a lot of support from the city administration and elected officials so that's a huge way that we could move forward and I know we do the same work so a lot of stuff we're just mirroring the same thing you know I think Fort Worth did a really great job with the candidates thank you thank you question nine began with Michelle and then Boncill this question leans into the future so you're hired officer police oversight monitor and once in that position you notice that your resources are limited which result in you not having the ability to change anything within the community or hold forward police accountable what would you do oh we organizing we're getting every one of y'all in here because because there are elected officials in here that approve budgets so we one thing I want to be is impactful I'm not one to be used to gas little community I'm not one to sit here and just collect taxpayer money and not be effective so I'm going to talk to every clergy member every activist every victim of police misconduct and say hey listen you guys we wanted this we wanted to ensure that there was appropriate accountability and their pigeon holding us I'm laying off my staff we cannot effectively get things done so we need to apply pressure on the stakeholders I know y'all in here I appreciate y'all if we're not in that situation and I thank y'all for the support of police oversight but should that situation happen we're public servants public safety is important accountability is important transparency is important and it's important for you all it's important to ensure that there is constitutional policing in the city of Fort Worth and how can we do that when you freeze our budget when you decrease our funding when you won't allow us to have training and professional development for the staff members who willingly want to help to change the way that policing is in Fort Worth so we'll definitely organize I'll use the community partnerships and we we'll all be outside so that that's how I feel about it and I'm just going to be honest because don't claim you want something need something and you don't want to invest in it thank you one still so I absolutely the first thing that you're going to need is community support and I think that's the point in building partnership relationships ahead of time and in keeping your community partners informed and educated on what the office was already doing before things started to teeter off and pressures whatever they may have been in this hypothetical world come to bay but I'll be honest one of the things that I would love to see is secured funding ahead of time I would love to see a secured amount of funding that can't be touched by any political pressure or wins that says as the city of Fort Worth we said we are committed to police oversight and we know that we are here for a amount of time but after we're gone we want to ensure that this is still a community everyone wants to live in so if that means setting aside a particular percentage of the general fund to ensure that no matter what this office can at least operate I think that is a conversation that needs to be had and one of the ways that you ensure things like that don't happen because that is a very real consequence from everyone I've met everything that I've read it seems like there is buy-in but we have to plan for days when we're not here when the elected officials change when police chiefs change when police monitors change and ensure that that can live on so that's that's would be my plan also I'll say that I'm okay with people not liking me and so not only am I going to engage with the community I'm gonna be knocking on some doors asking some questions of those elected officials that serve the constituents that I'm a public servant to of how did we get here and how do we right this wrong because in order for me to carry out transparency and accountability and rebuild community trust I have to be funded and if this is what we're supposed to be about let's do it thank you question 10 begins with Bonsil followed by Michelle will you challenge the PPOA police officers association when it comes to police misconduct yes without a doubt absolutely I don't I can give examples I can wax poetic but without hesitation it has to be done because if not then what's the point of having the office in the first place Michelle I don't think there's any other answer then yes absolutely but also I would hope that we would get to a point where we can foster relationship where we both want both meaning the entities want effective police accountability I don't understand or would never understand why there is evidence that supports police misconduct and there is an individual or an entity that is saying we do not want to hold this police office or accountable we want to put them back out there and do x y or z that's an absolute no there has to be consequences to actions so making people uncomfortable so the community can be comfortable is okay with me thank you question 11 begins with Michelle and then Bonsil understanding the differences between Dallas and Fort Worth how do you ensure that you don't confuse the two separate city politics uh yes Michelle first I don't I don't think that that's an issue and there are two separate cities I understand that usually it's it's very similar quite frankly to Oakland San Francisco their neighboring cities politics very different you know organization very different so I'm I'm actually in that situation right now where we have our sister city right next door I watched them both I understand the evolution of it Dallas has their oversight as well and and they move in a different fashion of course oversight is oversight and we all have the same principles and objectives in mind but how they move is how they move I have to work with what we have here the support that we have here the politicians that we have here fostering those relationships so that we have a collaborative effort to move forward we will talk to our sister city or something's working there that we can bring here however Fort Worth is very unique in its social fabric and we need to ensure that we are supporting and tackling the objectives that are very unique to the city of Fort Worth and that is our priority thank you question 12 and we're just about to wrap we've got most questions I have a I'm sorry it's okay it's the same answer don't worry you didn't miss anything I would like to see that with a test I was seeing that the community was going to speak up and see they saw a wrongdoing that's what was happening there thank you again I'm not certain that it could happen and I'm not saying that people don't mix up Dallas and Fort Worth that's not what I'm saying I'm saying that if I'm involved in my community if I'm meeting my key stakeholders if I'm aware of the work that I should be doing I shouldn't have outside influence for something that doesn't directly concern me I know the police monitor over there I know their structure and I'm familiar but who I'm here to serve is the city of Fort Worth and so the only way that could happen is if I'm failing and I don't fail so I don't imagine that coming to fruition thank you question 12 and we're just about to get to your closing remarks and you'll have some time to actually get a little closer to Michelle and Boncel and greet them there's an old saying that you don't bite the hand that feeds you because it might stop feeding you how can you effectively advocate on behalf of the citizens and the public with respect to policing when it's the city that pays you also on the same vein should this office be independent from the city of Fort Worth and this question 12 will begin with Boncel and then followed by Michelle I think it's the calling of the office in order to do so so this is majority of the media is gone so I'll say this I'm an oversight in New Orleans if you get bored Google it Google the political pressures Google what is happening and realize that I've already had to do that I've had to as an office so collaboratively stand up against investigations involving the mayor involving city council and have the police chief as well as city attorney frustrated with the work of the office now they were frustrated but after we went through the process and we like to say that the process was the punishment what they had to say is you did everything ethically you're in accordance with your MLU and you did what you were called to do so I get a paycheck but that's not my provider I'm going to do what I'm called to do I'm not going to rest my head at night just simply to get a paycheck because I could go build billable hours somewhere and get a nice paycheck so I have stood the test of time in a city that has challenged me and I'm comfortable being in that position and standing there there's a certain level of independence that's expected and that's what I'm going to bring to the office there are benefits let me be clear and being involved with the city if there are some offices that don't and when you want to talk about funding when you want to talk about resources of engaging the community when you want to talk about training we want to talk about response from the police department it's not there there are a lot of things but it's if you are set up within the city who supports your office you can go forward and when they support your office when the police department's wrong because they know when they're right you're going to say the same thing and so I've done it I'm comfortable doing it and I know at some point I'll have to do it again and if that means that I got to get a paycheck from somewhere else because they don't like it then so be it that's simply what it'll be thank you so any oversight job that I've taken I always say I come with my integrity intact I will leave with my integrity intact and that's the hell I'm willing to die on that's how I feel so strongly about what we do because in the oversight world it's very small and our credibility is everything so if there is political pressures to do something that is unethical we're going to hear about it when I say we I mean we because you all are supposed to hold us accountable as well it should not come to a point where oversight has interference by anyone there are certain things that govern how we do what we do in the city of Baltimore the inspector general that I um came in under she reported to the mayor at first lobbied got community support got a city council member to sponsor a bill to make the office of the inspector general independent that's an option at some point if there is undue political influence that you may potentially see and I completely understand there are elected officials in the room I completely understand they're a city administration in the room but when you say that you want to invest in effective independent civilian oversight of a police department you have to put your money where your mouth is so when there comes a point where you can no longer be effective because you are scared regardless of who sits in the monitor seat you are now ineffective and you don't need to be here so then we have to start looking at a different oversight model to ensure that we can do what we need to do so to answer your question like bonzo said you know we we can go somewhere else we can do this somewhere else but our integrity is what we rely on as we are oversight practitioners in this work thank you that concludes a very robust variety of questions we're going to begin with our closing remarks invite you to share anything of importance that you want to leave with us that you want us to know about you and this important leadership role and because our opening remarks began with Michelle followed by Bonsil our closing remarks we're going to begin with Bonsil followed by Michelle I'm not sure if there's anything else that I can say that I haven't conveyed in another way already but what I do want to reiterate is that I'm passionate about this work and not only am I passionate about this work in the world that work in this field I believe Fort Worth is a place to do it Fort Worth is on the cusp of some amazing things with police oversight and it's ready to just take the turn I've learned a lot of lessons along the way that I can just see implementing the growth of the staff the engagement of the community the support of elected officials is something that I really could think that I could take and just run with it and this would just be national leader for police oversight I believe in accountability and let me be clear I believe in accountability for the community and when the wrongs have happened but I also believe when the police have done something right that it needs to be said as well I'm committed to to to neutral practice of police oversight I'm committed to making sure that voices are heard in the community I'm making very committed to making sure that the community is educated and informed I don't want to leave Fort Worth in a position of where you just have an echo chamber of harms being repeated without actual information I want to see a time where the police distrust and community harm is a memory I want to see where we can say yes that happened Oceana Jefferson happened but what we do know is that these changes have been implemented and I actually believe that there is a change in place and it's really going to come from Fort Worth I want to do impactful work I want to do impactful work for a place that's not resistant to it and is actually welcoming of it because I think that's where it's really going to grow and that seems to be Fort Worth this is a place that I'm looking forward to call home we've already said it and maybe we shouldn't you have two very qualified candidates and I think that you're headed in the direction and just by the sheer amount of interviews panels key stakeholder meetings and community engagement I can tell the investment and police oversight in the city you can't go wrong and as long as the community stays involved no matter what happens I think Fort Worth is going to do amazing things I would like to see you do it with me though thank you for your time and your attention and I hope that I've been informative at a bare minimum thank you thank you Michelle I want to first start off with thanking you all for being committed to your community and being committed to holding your elected officials and your city leaders accountable for ensuring that you are part of this process we both have the qualifications Fort Worth is an amazing city I want to understand where and how we got to where we are I want to understand how we can move forward and that only way is with you all so that we can really build the trust that we need but that first starts building trust with us with the opal office making sure that we are readily available and it's all communities equal access for Spanish speakers as well because a lot of folks are not heard because they cannot convey certain individuals we have LGBTQ communities queer communities that don't feel comfortable talking because they feel like they're being stigmatized I want to make sure that they have a voice they are heard and there is action involved the policy that they are treated with respect everyone should be treated with respect and how do we do that collaboratively every one of us in this room has a different perception of positive change for constitutional policing everybody will not have the same answer and 100% of this room will not be happy but if we're moving closer and closer and inching towards effective accountability and transparency and policing in Fort Worth that is what will motivate not only me but all of us together we can do this together this is our responsibility to make sure we are part of the solution and not the problem I know that there are tons of folks who are mad and they'll yell and scream and the police but when I ask you to come to a forum you don't come I'm just going to be honest about it I want to hear from you we have to hear those stories so I can understand where that pain resonates from hurt people hurt people and that's a part of our community we hold it all the time we have to start healing and healing is listening sessions community forums mediation and talking to a police officer saying what you did impacted me in a way that now I don't trust you so how can we move forward with selecting an appropriate fit for the city of Fort Worth which I would think would hopefully be me but either way you can't go wrong so I just want to thank you guys so much for coming indulging us and having these amazing questions and I look forward to any additional questions thank you I think that's a wrap we want to invite you to to actually get a chance to get a little bit closer to them now I know they had a meal before coming here but after this round of questions they may want to eat again the energy they brought forth but great gratitude to our neighbors and residents local near and far for your excellent questions for your attentiveness for your presence it means a lot it will continue to mean a lot and I'm not going to go into a lot of introductions we have some incredible community leaders here tonight some inspiring activists we've got some city officials department heads city management I think we know who they are one introduction I will make. Como is in a new district and our council member is with us tonight Jared Williams would you please stand and let's give councilman Jared Williams a round of applause and I'm so tempted to start and I see some other elected officials please forgive me we all we we know who you are we thank you for your Tyler's service leadership and energy we are adjourned thank you