 Hello breakout room. Oh breakout room. All right, let's break out. I get to take the mute button off. Yeah. Very exciting. Okay. Lila completely rocked it. Yes. Cheers. Well done. Congratulations, Lila. Thank you. Thank you to Wendy. I'm getting a lot of compliments on hair and makeup and background. And so I just want to give Wendy a good shout out. She totally stage managed me and ran me through that. Thank you, Wendy. So much. I'll do it for anyone. No, Lila, now you have to do that speech over and over and over again. That is so compelling. So strong. Yes. All right. Thank you. Yep. All right. Sorry, I had the wrong input here. So hello everyone. Welcome to our breakout room. I am Meredith Rose for those of you who don't know me. I'm senior policy council at public knowledge. And I get the distinct honor to moderate a discussion with our IP three award winning for intellectual property. Lila Bailey of the internet archive. The rousing speech that frankly she needs to give before Congress and a whole lot of other people. So I'm honored that she did a test run on us first. So we're going to have about 15 minutes. I think Lila and I are going to chat for a bit. And then we'll open it up to. If there are some questions at the end, we'll try to save a few minutes so that folks can throw them into the hopper. And we can all just basket back a little bit. In Lila's, you know, big thoughts. So your volumes a little low for us. Okay. Maybe is this a little bit better? Yeah. Yeah, I never said to move my mic. Okay. So first question. So you mentioned Lila, some of your background sort of origin story. When you were in law school, what brought you what sort of influence you towards moving in intellectual property and getting involved with work that you're doing? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're allowed. There's a, there's a, there's a, there's a really long version of that. And there's a really short version of that. So for this crew, I'll give the shortest version. Which is I graduated from a undergrad in the year 2000, class of 2000 when I was in the city. But then I moved to Alexandria of music. It had everything. It was incredible. It was the best library we've ever built. And we burned it down. And honestly, that really, it really fired me up. You know, I, to kind of work from the inside. So that's, I mean, honestly, that's kind of the thing that lit the fire under my butt to do intellectual property stuff in general. But it's on my love of books and music and movies and TV and all of those things actually that brings me, I just, I love all of those things so much. And I think it's really important for us to have access to them. And even if you happen to be a really poor kid, it's kind of great to be able to read the classics even if you don't have any money. So that's the short version. Piggybacking on that, you talk a lot about the role of libraries in promoting access to works and really kind of helping to be a social force that evens the playing field, especially for younger folks, between folks who have access to these kinds of things and folks who don't. And obviously, as your speech talked about, we're kind of at a like almost a point of flux for libraries in a lot of ways. What do you see, what kind of, what do you think libraries are gonna look like in 10 to 15 years? Like what sort of role do you see them playing, be that in terms of the stocks that they have, the licensing that they've got, how they're getting crunched or ideally what you would like to see them look like in 10 or 15 years in the world, you'd like to see them play. Yeah, so assuming we win our lawsuit, right? So if we lose our lawsuit, we're gonna have Netflix for books and that's all you get. But if we win and we've got to win, really, so Brewster says it's better than I do, but really the internet is the library, right? I mean, that's really the dream of the internet is anybody anywhere can have access to anything. And I get why that's complicated from a legal perspective, but from an idealistic vision perspective, it's simple. It's really straightforward. And frankly, it is what libraries are for. It's what, yeah. So at the end of the day, the whole internet could be the library. Now the thing that I think libraries have that needs to stay is librarians. Okay, like we cannot do without the librarians, you can never get an AI that's gonna be as great as Kyle Courtney or Michelle Wu or Dave Hansen or whoever else I should be buttering up whoever's in my room here. But you guys are amazing. And honestly, if I had, I don't know, if I'd known more librarians as a kid, I'd probably be a librarian and not a lawyer. But you guys are amazing. And we can't like really truly like can't do it without you. I ever appreciated how feisty librarians are as a group until I started working on copyright policy. Yeah. Great. So I wanted to make sure that folks have some time to ask any questions if they've got them. I'm also happy to just keep shooting breeze with our IP three winner here. Quick question. What can we do? I know it's the court case, but in addition to the court case, what can the rest of us do to support libraries? I know there were, I grew up in the projects in Brooklyn and Queens and it wasn't public library. My life is very different. So for those of us who love libraries, the way you do who want to support what you're trying to do, what else can we do other than we read the opinion when it comes out? Well, so Larry, I don't know who, I don't know what organization you work for but there's going to be plenty of amicus brief opportunities. So that will be really helpful. Honestly, telling the story of your libraries and why they matter, especially to Congress and to other policymakers, reminding them that this is something that they need to invest in and care about and that at the end of the day, of course, again, it goes without saying, especially in this room, like of course we care that publishing continues and we care that authors get paid and we care that all of those systems continue to exist. But libraries need to continue to exist too. And we need to remind our policymakers that libraries exist on the internet. And if you regulate the heck out of Facebook in a way that makes it so libraries can't exist anymore, well, that's going to be the world's worst unintended consequence. So I think it's talking to your policymakers, telling stories. I mean, look, if you have a great story about something you found and used on the internet archive, let me know. We are writing about these things. We are telling those stories. And Meredith knows PK helped us do, walk about is the wrong word. I think they call it a fly-in. But anyway, basically taking our passionate feisty librarians around the halls of Congress and telling those stories face to face, that it really does matter. It really does make a real difference. So PK and the internet archive can help you do that if you need help doing that. I don't know, Bruce or Wendy, what else can they do? We need help in every which way. This is a really, really gruesome fight and the stakes are incredibly high. If every reading event is a licensed event that somebody gets to say who gets to make it happen and who doesn't get to make it happen, we are so screwed. If you can say, oh, women can read this, men can't read this. Oh, people in this part of the country can read this, but you can't read that. Oh, we're gonna take away all the older editions. Oh, we're gonna take away that book completely from all libraries right now. That's what's at stake. And it's talked about as books, but it's everything. It's every webpage. We would go into a dystopia of basically it's cable for everybody. It is the hundred channels of shit on the internet and that's what's at stake. So what do we need? We need publishers to sell e-books. Sell them, sell them. No terms of service, sell them. And libraries will buy them up a storm. Let's make some people rich by selling e-books. If you know an author, if you know a publisher, if you know an author, bring them to us. Make up, yeah. We'll write a check. Yeah. And a lot of libraries will write checks. We will give them the money. We're happy to give them the money. We want to give them the money. And we need a couple of name brand authors. We need a couple A-listers. You have them in your network. Please help. Back to you, Leela. It actually kind of touches on a thing that I know you've talked about before in the context of digital lending and the role of libraries, which is misinformation, which is another big point of work that PK has been working on about how do you combat misinformation in the digital ecosystem? And can you talk a little bit about sort of how you think about these issues and how they relate to access to published works? Absolutely, right? So the best way to combat misinformation online is to make sure that we have access to the real stuff, the good stuff, the published stuff, the vetted stuff, the peer-reviewed stuff. Right now that stuff is behind paywalls. Libraries can't get it. It's so expensive. I'm seeing my dear, dear friend, Kate Milner here in the room who is a fabulous professor and a researcher. And she was telling me this horror story of not being able to get access to things during her dissertation. And she found some cool stuff in Ted Nelson's junk mail. The fact that we had archived that, just random stuff that had come to this computer scientist over the years, he happened to keep it in a box. We decided to take it and digitize it. And that then became part of somebody's important research. Like that's meaningful, right? So we gotta have the published stuff and we gotta have the random stuff too, right? So that's the thing the Internet Archive does that no, as far as I know, no other libraries do this. We take your garbage and we will make sure that it is still available. And that's someone like Kate Milner, Dr. Kate Milner can use that in her research about the importance of the discourse around learning to code. That anyway, so just having access to that is really important. One of the other things that the Internet Archive is doing is trying to find ways to weave the published works, the books into the web so that we can actually link straight into a book, right? So we're doing that from Wikipedia. We have this great partnership making sure that when you cite a book in Wikipedia, you can click right on it. The breakout room is ending, I'm getting a thing. But anyway, I just wanna say hi and I love you to so many of you when I'm so sad and I'm not hugging you and so sad to be in this room and not with you. But yeah, anyway, it's so delightful to see all your wonderful faces. And also, I just wanna say thanks to Meredith for being such a rock star. She's been such a great partner in all of this work and just such a superstar. And it's such a delight and a pleasure to get to work with you and with PK on all of these important issues. And this is so great, but also really sad because I miss you guys. Very strange year. Well, thank you everybody for joining our breakout room. We're gonna head on back and everybody can enroll in the door. Cheers, Leila, cheers, Leila. Love you guys.