 Thank you. I welcome everyone to the Justice subcommittee meeting and policing It's our 10th meeting in 2015. Can ask everyone to switch off mobile phones and other electronic devices completely, no apologies have been received. Our only item of business today item one is the evidence session on local policing where we'll explore some of the issues on our recent visits to Dimfries, Elgin and Glenrithes. I welcome to the meeting for Police Scotland Chief Superintendent Mike Leslie, from Dimfries and Galloway Felly, Gwelwy, Sfrindendod, Angela McLaren captured from Fife, and Sfrindendod Kate Steven from Murray. Welcome very much, thank you for coming. I want to thank you on behalf of your divisions for facilitating our very useful visits which were back in June. I'm trying to remember when they were. That's Margaret, Kevin, John, Elaine and Alison. I'll just put you down in reserve. Margaret, right? Good afternoon. I wonder if I could start with the issue of communication, which is so important to the effective running of Police Scotland, to firstly address the issue of i'n fawr o'r ffordd i'r cyflawn o bobl ddigonio ar gyfer y cael eu cyfrifloedau ar gyfer y byddai'r gwaith ac mae'n ddigonio ar gyfer y byddai'r cyfrifloedau ac mae'n ddigonio ar gyfer y byddai'r gwaith y byddai'r gwaith. Yr unrhyw ddatganiwch ei fod yn eu gweld i ni, yn gwych gwaith i ni, mae'n cymdeithasio i ni'r gwaith i ni. Rwy'n cyflawn i'n gweithio. Llyr Fyglwyddon Llewsle. Mae'r ystyried allanol yn iumio. Rydyn ni'n amser i darlau roi tynnu 8 fforsu o'r ysgrifffwr. Rydyn ni'n amser i wneud fydden ni'n ei fforsu oes oherwydd fel y fforddau. Rydyn ni'n rhan o'i ffordd UM-14 yn iumio ddyddai. Rydyn ni'n amser i gael i mfforsu rydyn ni'n iumio ddyddai. Rydyn ni'n iumio ddyddai'n iumio ddyddai'n iumio ddyddai, atdemiach, i ddefnyddio'r byd, ac yn cyfnodd yn gwahanol. Felly, gyd yn eu teidio, nid i ddechrau現au. Felly, mae'n fawr anhygoel â'r proses. Mae Gweinidog nesaf i chi dwi'n gael i gyntaf, maen nhw, Melysparade. Fwylch chi'n ddefnyddio beth sydd wedi'i'n cymheiniad y mae'r proses. Can I add it to that, as well? Rwy'n dod i ddweud bod chi'n gyfweithio i â'r bwysigais ar ôl y trafn yn mynd i'r wath ynghylch yn gwneud ddigin o'r tawmwysig i'r fwy. Rydych chi'n teimlo beidio i ddechrau diwymiadau yn teimlo o edrych yn gynhyrchu gyda'r bobl am y sector, ac mae'n dysgu yn fwy o'r cyffredinol yn gwybod i gyfweithi a chydweithi'n gyfiant oedd mor ddafai ar y dyfodau? Felly chi'n ddweud eich yw'r prioritau yn gweithio, yn fyw? Isi'n dweud? Rwy'n cael ei bod yn gymrydd i'r bwysig, yn fawr, ac, efallai, y cymryd cymrydau sgolwgau yn y cyfrydau cystafol, rydyn ni'n credu i'r rhan o'r ardal i gael i'r angen, ond byddai'n gweithio i'r rhan o'r angen, ein bod ni'n gweithio i'r angen a fyddai'n gweithio i'r angen i'r angen i'r angen i'r angen i'r angen i'r angen i'r angen i'r Hwn cyfugir yn 70% i'r cwrddig o'r wrthogig a ddullog, mae wedi cwrddig o ydych yn bwrdd y ffordd o fwyafolodau. Fodd ddim schnwys cyrraed ni'n ai arddangos i gyd. ein hynny'n mynd ar gyfer hynny, felly yn sy'n dechrau'r ysgrifennu cyfugir y maen nhw, ac mae'r peth yn ddim yn ddefnyddio'r genafwrdd. Dyma mae'r bydd peth yn golygu'r cyfugir, mae'r ddechrau yn gŷchol y maen nhw i'r cyfrifenedig, gyda staff, police, staff, police officers, a we are going to develop an action plan that will then be communicated to staff to take that forward so that we have the organisation learns from what come out of that survey. I think that in terms of the information coming down, when I know for a fact that we had at the start, we say for communities, we would have material coming down that would come down to us a week late, for example, the fresher's initiative now. That was because down in Nefreson Galloway it's a week earlier than it is in the central bed, but we've addressed that now. I mean, the recent operation Manado for Bogus Wartman, the material arrived on time, the initiative was implemented and we had quite a bit of success in the work of that, protecting vulnerable people, especially the elderly. So it's a simple matter sometimes of something happening in different divisions at different times, but you were getting the briefings at a one-fix time. Has that been all sorted? The information for the fresher's arrived a week later because, as I said, the fresher's starts in Nefreson Galloway a week earlier, so we would get the information, would come to us as it was being sent out to the central bed, but now we've addressed that, we've learned from it and moved on. Anybody else? Yes, superintendency. I think just to add to that, you know, with events diaries and national units that deliver on these, like the safer communities, you know, over the last two years, we've very much streamlined the processes whereby there's much more localism added to that. The safer communities Spock's and each of the divisions have an input and meet monthly with the national teams, so where there are issues like that, they can be addressed at that meeting and forecast so that everything's much more smooth and streamlined and divisions receive information when they require it in time for national operations or events or initiatives that are occurring across the area. You wish, sorry, particularly, you know, the arrest and powers. Is that coming down to you? Are you being consulted on that in any form? Or where are you consulted? On the powers of arrest, you want to? Yes, I think that the criminal justice side of the business, there's always changing criminal justice in terms of, you know, police warnings, recorded warnings, same discretionary powers, changing to process, criminal justice field is very wide. What we have now, we have a criminal justice division, but again within each area, if there's a new procedure coming in, there'll be a nominated Spock, a single point of contact, in each of the divisions who that person will link in with. The criminal justice division do bulletins and provide information that can be briefed out in a personal way, as well as in a written way, but it is, there is a lot of information, but policing's always had a lot of information, there's always been a lot of change and we've always been able to try and find the best ways to get that information out to our staff, but we recognise that the staff survey has picked up on staff wanting to be able to influence decision more, have less emails and certainly have more personal contact, whether that's with senior officers or across departments and that's something as Mike's picked up on that we're looking at now as part of moving forward. If I could just use one other example that's been brought to my attention recently and again it's about communication, we're aware that last year when all the leaders spoke to the police then there was the issue of maternity leave being brought up, it's 13 weeks in Scotland, 18 weeks in England. So no, slow down, slow down. The issue of this committee is to deal with her police Scotland as a single police force operates, that's the remit, not that. So I have to rule that. I'm in the chair and that's a difference between what happened in the police negotiating body, reached an agreement on the 7th of October, it was published in the press in the 8th of October, rank and file officers weren't notified of it. Sorry Margaret, I'm putting my foot down. The issue was how the police Scotland is operating as a single force, this issue is about localism and whether there is a failure and there were difficulties when the national force came in and losing local accountability, that is irrelevant to what this meeting is about today and you can't expect witnesses to speak to an issue nor will allow them to be asked to speak to an issue of which they did not expect because it's not within the brief of today's meeting, sorry about that. So could I have another question from Kevin please because I know he's got to leave a bit. Thank you convener and for those of you that don't know I'm from Aberdeen and I deal regularly with chief superintendent Adrian Watson there. One of the things which was of concern to some folk was dictat being made nationally and you guys not having the flexibility to deal with issues in your own patches. I have to say that from my own experience there certainly has been flexibility to deal with some of the complaints that I've had in Aberdeen and I would praise the force there for that flexibility. But in terms of dealing with local matters raised either by elected politicians or by the public, do you feel that under this new setup that you have the flexibility to deal with their concerns and to prioritise their concerns sometimes above the national issues that come your way? Yes, who wants to answer that chief superintendent? Yeah absolutely. I suppose I've had the benefit of working in two different divisions since the start of Police Scotland. I was in Tayside before I was in Five and it's very much for the divisional commander and the command team within that area to deploy their resources where they see fit where the demand is. In Five, if I take back in Five now as an example, we have a really strong community engagement system in Five. We had that prior to Police Scotland that still exists so we have regular contact at a local level. Local people are able to tell us their concerns. They form part of our where word plans are now local area plans and I suppose that emphasises the flexibility locally in that Five moved to area plans to fit with our seven council areas, which was a better fit for us. Very seldom would I say that I've ever come across a situation where a local issue doesn't, in some way, fit with a national priority. So for me there's never really been that rub about whether a local priority can be serviced and certainly in terms of flexing resources. We flex our own resources locally and I know my colleagues will be the same. If we have a particular issue in an area, we had a ward that was experiencing an increase in antisocial behaviour and violence, for example, then we have the flexibility to bring national resources in to assist us where and when we need it. But I certainly do it at a local level feel that I have the ability to flex my resources and my local area commanders at chief inspector level have the same ability as well. Like Ange, we are coterminous with the local authority and the NHS and I would make the point that, in my opinion, we have a very strong working relationship with the local authority, with the NHS and, most important, with the elected members, with the MSPs and MPs, and that, in the last 10 days, I've met every local MSP, the two MPs and a number of the councillors and briefed them on a matter and that gives them an opportunity to influence me or bring matters to my attention, they think that we need to address. So I think that there's a very, very strong working relationship around also highlighting the fact that, in Dumfries and Galloway, we run a continuous improvement group and on that continuous improvement group is the chair of the local police fire scrutiny committee. So he sits on that group with his senior command team and that gives him an opportunity to influence. He hears what we are looking at and it gives him a chance to put in and contribute to the debate about where we need to go. He was in, we had a meeting on Monday with him and one of the issues that we discussed was the special constabulary and how he's helping us to promote the special constabulary in the region. Can I just supplement that? It sounds things have moved on to the first of June but the note that we have in front of us from Dumfries and Galloway does admit that that there was a strong view among the office of the leadership style, the national force had softened and become more understanding the need for flexibility. However, there's a bit here about officers and councillors noted that national policies on road closures and charging of events had replaced local flexibilities. Is that the same? Has that stayed the same? Is that important to local people? I'll give you the context round about that. Temporary traffic restriction orders or TTROs as they're known by police officers. What happens is that if you've got a Galloway event they have to apply for a TTRO to the council. The council will ask us to make a risk assessment on it and then we'll make a recommendation to the council. It's up to the council what happens thereafter. That example relates to Carcubric where an individual thought that he was going to get charged an extortionate sum of money. I think that it was £1,000 when really it was £100. That was by the council and the other point I would make, which I think is really important here in terms of TTROs, is that in Dumfries and Galloway we have Galloway events through the summer that run every week and in many occasions there's more than one or two on and they get policed for free. There's no charge. They're community-based events that the police will put significant resources to and there's no charge. The charge for the TTRO, Temporary Traffic Restriction Order, is by the council. Do you want to come in on that, Elaine? I'm sorry, it's your patch, isn't it? Well, Cagouby isn't, but I'm sorry, I'm aware of that. Rounding about the prediction. I think you're pardoned, Kevin. Let Kevin in, sorry. I'm quite happy for you to take Elaine in. I mean, I do have other questions. That's on that issue. Have you anything on that issue? No, no, I'm sorry, right. Thank you. Obviously, some forces were ahead of the game in terms of ward policing plans, local policing plans. Now you all have to do these things. One of the things that often tells you the story about how a force in a community are co-operating is how involved the community is in formulating those local policing plans. I wasn't at the visit to Elgin this last time, but the previous time that Mr Finlay and I were in Elgin, it seemed that the community council there had a fairly good input into the local plan there. They were happy with the formulation of that plan. Do you feel that you are taking enough cognisance of the views of the man and woman in the street when you're formulating those plans? I don't think that the position has changed any from the first visit in 2014 to the second visit when Mr Finlay visited us up in Elgin. I would argue that, yes, we are taking cognisance of the views through various methods and areas, whether it's through the local councillors or whether it's that community council meetings. It's right down at that grassroots level where officers and inspectors are attending these meetings and taking the concerns of members of the public in the Elgin area, and they feature and form part of that process. Can I ask about Fife and Dumfries and Galloway as well? Obviously, as I said, Grampian seemed to be ahead in this particular area before the national force was formed, so I'd be interested to hear how you feel that's going. I would echo Kate's comments. Fife was in a similar position. We had a recognised engagement model, which we've maintained through Police Scotland. We still have that engagement model just now, so I do feel that our engagement hasn't changed a great deal. We engage the same ways that we did before we employ the same methods. Certainly for the plans that we're starting to look at now, we're starting to bring that planning process back a bit earlier to give us more time to plan, so we've started our engagement locally, as my colleagues will have as well. Initially with partners, and then we'll take that down to a local level. We're also looking over the next year to bring in more digital participation, because we recognise that a forum works for some people, but for most people, the best way now to put your views across is either through Twitter, through Facebook or through some electronic method. We're at the process just now of trying to work out the best way to communicate with our different communities in each area and how we do that digitally. As I said, we're working through that just now. If we take Fife as an example, we've got citizenship groups in Fife that will capture views of far more people than we would be able to do on our own. It's very much about not doing this in isolation, but looking to see what existing networks are there that we can tap into and put questionnaires out. I was conscious of everybody's time, but taking that a step further, that's something that we're looking at doing and how we can do that with our partners as well, because obviously local council are doing the same thing, NHS are doing the same thing, so we're at a stage just now in Fife, certainly, where as part of our coordinated efforts, we're trying to think of ways that we can do that on a wider basis across organisations. From a v-division perspective, like Angie, I keep saying that we're coterminist, but I think that there's a very, very important point here. For me, community policing is underpinned by police and by consent. You police with the consent of the local community, the people that you're policing, and you can never ever lose sight of that. From a Devonfries and Galloway v-division perspective, we've very much been a rural community, very much tied into the local community through the area committee process, and it's been there for a long, long time through the area committee process, through what was the police and fire committee, now the scrutiny committee. I like Angie, there's a lot of consultation on going, do I think that the consultation that we're doing gives us an accurate understanding of what the community is? Yes, I do, because I think we've just developed it and moved it on, but I think that it's a very, very important principle for community policing and we should not lose sight of the fact that we're police by consent. Do you think that some of the national consultations that have taken place recently have been as robust as some of the consultations that you are dealing with at a local level? If not, how do you think they should be improved? Should you maybe take the lead in dealing with any national consultations as well as your local consultations too, because, after all, it's you and your officers that folk have day in daily contact with? Yes, I think that, again, as Mike's picked up on, there's a learning curve with any change. I think that with some of the national consultation that's taken place, it's very much been a case of at times top down, at times bottom up, if we take the control room as an example, when Fife, prior to my time in Fife, when Fife was moving control rooms, the team came into Fife, they did a presentation to elected members, so elected members understood what was happening, and that was to our scrutiny board. Just this week, now that we've gone through that change, the scrutiny board have gone across to the ACR to visit to understand how things are working. I think that there's a learning process with any change process, but I certainly think that, when speaking to the elected members that I work with, they do feel that they have had an opportunity to be involved in those processes and have contributed to, at a local level, what's happening nationally. One final question, convener. Many years ago, when I served on the Grampian Police Board, I was perturbed to hear that restrictions were put on officers from talking to elected members, the officer who tried to put that in place probably learned very quickly that that wasn't a very wise thing to do. Could you give me an assurance that your officers, your constables, sergeants and inspectors have got the ability to talk to us openly and transparently, as well as us, councillors, community counsellors and the entire shebang, because I think that that is extremely important. You're not going to get a no for that, but never by the like. I'm asking the question, because I think that the question is as important as the answer. I expect my area inspectors to be speaking to counsellors on a daily basis, especially when something happens in the community. For example, if we've got a community impact assessment running, they'll get briefed on it. There's a lot of trust there, because the relationships have developed over the years and you can get into some quite detailed, confidential briefings with them. Because you've got that trust, they need to know because they're part of the community, because if you don't tell them, it's going to come to them anyway and if they're not sighted on it, they'll backfire on you. I can only speak from a V-division of recent Galway perspective. That's just—I mean, I've got a—I've got miss buddies here today, so that's just not happening. As I say, I've got a counsellor on my continuous improvement group, and he's getting warts and all on terms of local things that we're trying to improve. Yes? I'll give you all, obviously, the opportunity to dance on that one, yes. No, I'm exactly the same as Mike Sain from a Fife perspective. It's very much a case of—at a local level, that consultation takes place. If it's an incident that's on-going, we'll have discussions. I encourage my officers to speak to, especially locally elected members, around about issues that are happening in their area. It doesn't make sense not to do that, otherwise it'll be a letter that'll come in and we'll end up giving it to them to deal with. So that consultation and engagement happens routinely. It's business as usual. Absolutely. I'll just echo what my colleagues have said. It's no different in B division, Aberdeenshire and Murray. I absolutely encourage our inspectors, sergeants, constables, to have that engagement at a local level. As you've highlighted, it hasn't changed that engagement piece since the inception of Police Scotland in the northeast. It continues. I'm going to call John. Before I do it, because you mentioned community policing, and it wasn't followed up by John because we went to Glenrothes, I'll ask him to myself. I understand that you had an open-ended pilot scheme for two dedicated community officers in each council ward, and that was very popular. Is that still continuing? Yes. It's being reviewed at the moment. It is continuing. As I'm sure you would imagine, it's a very popular method of community policing, recognisable officers in the wards that not just elected members but community members as well can associate with. It's under review just now, but it is working well. Thank you, convener. Good afternoon, panel. Can you, if I could just make a wee brief comment first before I ask some questions? It depends who we're going with. I'm sure you'll like it. Well, already I'm on guard. I had the benefit of visiting Murray, and I'm grateful to Superintendent Stephen and our colleagues in January 2014 with Kevin. The records will show that there were issues that arrived there. We were particularly impressed with the community support that there was for the Constabulary. For unforeseen circumstances, Kevin was unable to join me, but the same was the picture this September. I think that that's important to say that it's vital in a community like that there is the support for the Constabulary. I had an informal discussion due to some technical difficulties. We didn't get the show on the road quite the way we thought it would. I had some informal discussions with the senior management team who shared their frustrations about the level of negative publicity. I can understand that. That's my precursor to raising some of the negative issues that are in the report there. However, it's important to say that, at all levels, there was an understanding of the process of change and a real appreciation of the effort that was going in. I'm sure that the situation is better there. I'm sure that the situation is better there, but people would be surprised if I didn't raise the issues. In relation to that, there was an issue about some of the partners were more aware of some of the police activities and others. I'm sure that's something that you will have picked up on since our visit, or you will be picking up on this. Sorry, I've watched your specific question. Right. In relation to policing plans, partnership representatives have not been formally asked to identify priorities for local and ward plans. I don't have the details specifically around what partners you're referring to. It's obviously formed part of the engagement that you had with them while you were there, but it's certainly not something that's featured locally with us in relation to that or been highlighted as an issue from partners in respect of that. As I said earlier, the engagement process with them is as it has been over previous years in relation to the consultation and the engagement and informing what goes into the local plans, which invariably inform the national themes as well. Sorry, I understood that that was in the public domain and had been shared, but if not, I'm sure that you'll pick up on the issue. The other question that will apply across the areas was that officers suggested to us that they were under pressure to put reports to Procurate of Fiscal when, with their knowledge, they didn't believe that there was a sufficiency of evidence. Are you able to comment on that at all? I know that I've now been advised that what you're referring to is the note that we have on the visits, which is in the public domain. I'm sorry if you weren't aware that that's what we're in part looking at. That's it, and I think that's what John's referring to. So just to put you and be helpful to you, John, please know that. I could comment. Let me just quote directly, officers were also under pressure to put some cases to Procurate of Fiscal without a sufficiency of evidence. I suppose that, in answer to that, if it's specific to the consultation piece that happened up in Elgin, we have layers of quality assurance in relation to crime management units and layers of supervision that review evidence on cases that go to Procurate of Fiscal, and it's ultimately down to Procurate of Fiscal to decide what level of evidence is there. In terms of the pressure for officers, again, it was highlighted at your session with officers, it's certainly not something that has been brought to our attention locally in that regard. I would make the point that we have regular meetings and it'll happen elsewhere with the local Procurate of Fiscal and they won't be slowing telling you if that's happening because they don't want to see reports like that coming in because it's a waste of their time and they're busy enough and the officers are busy enough without having to spend the time to do that, so there's a mechanism in place there in my opinion and it'll be happening elsewhere in Scotland with meetings with the Fiscalers where the Fiscalers are much slow at coming and telling you when there's something that is catching their eye. I think that when you look specifically at, for example, domestic abuse cases, we've obviously got domestic abuse task force and investigation units across all the divisions and it is new structures, it's new ways of working, there's innovative practice that's been developed in other areas of the legacy forces that should be introduced into specific divisions for progression, so there's toolkits and standard operating procedures and all sorts of things there to help officers identify where and it ultimately is to maximise evidence that's available for them when they're presenting cases against individuals, so perhaps it was a view of a handful of officers in relation to specific types of reports that they're putting in, but in general, I would say... That's true, I've just located it myself, it's at page 8, second bullet point down of the note of our visits, do you find it? That's just where John is. And to echo what my colleague was saying in relation to that aspect, we have regular meetings with the Fiscal Service on a monthly basis, in fact, through a single point of contact at all levels from strategic down in relation to that, and if there were issues that they were highlighting, because as my colleague says, they wouldn't be slow at coming to let us know if there's a raft of cases coming through that don't have evidence, and ultimately you're talking about human rights, you know? Yes indeed. There was a couple of things, and this was something that came up when Mr Stiordan and I did visit before, and it was, and what I'm getting to is there may be issues of perception about the level of micromanagement, as it was seen, in the removal of discretion. Are you able to comment on that? And indeed it was domestic violence that was cited, that the officer spent a considerable time doing that, they come back and I think they said five people in the office pour over their every action, often finding something else for them to do. I think you'll recognise and members will recognise that domestic abuse is one of our priorities, both locally and nationally. I've mentioned before, there's domestic abuse task force and domestic abuse investigation units, because we recognise that this was a hugely underreported area in the past, so I absolutely make no apologies for the level of scrutiny and the level of quality assurance that goes in to ensure that victims are protected in all cases of domestic abuse. I think just to build on what Kate was saying, I think a lot of the time, especially with domestic abuse cases or cases involving children, a lot of that is to do with the recording process, so the officers might feel that there's five people pouring over a single piece of information that they're recording, but a lot of that is just out of different recording practices, and certainly in terms of a vulnerable person's database, the information ultimately can be shared with other partners, so it's important that it's correct at the time of it going on. With domestic cases, there are often custody cases, so if that officer then goes off for four days on a shift pattern, if it's not done right at first point contact, it then just creates delays and issues further on down the line. Again, I would put a lot of that down to change process as well. When you bring in a new system, whether it's a different operating procedure or a different actual technological solution, there's always that adapting period of time. I'll just add to that, to make a reference to that. We're on a matak process now for domestic abuse, matak process. It's a multiagency task, and it doesn't mean... Well, we didn't know that, you see, but now we do, right? Yeah, and that's a very important process, because I'll give you a good example of that working. We had an individual in the first two years, Police Scotland, who came to their attention through that process, and he was subsequently convicted at the High Court of nine rapes, and he's now serving a 13-year custodial sentence, and those nine rapes are a card over a 10-year period. So that individual's now out of the way, and there's no doubt if we hadn't got our hands at him through that process, he would just have continued. How did it get to that end result? What happens is it's a process that started off in Strathclyde, and on every Thursday of the month, we come together and we look at incidents that have been reported to us, domestic abuse incidents, and we assess them. They go through a risk assessment matrix, and we identify high profile offenders that we think there could be other victims out there. So what you're actually doing is you're actually going after the perpetrators, and we proactively target them, and build up the intelligence case. We then go in and interview who we think are the victims, and in that instance there was numerous victims over a 10-year period, and I think the indictment had over 30 charges on it. What are we getting at? It's a multiagency, but how did you, because quite often things go amiss because there isn't sharing of information, and that's very interesting that, but how did you share it? Well, we sit at the process, we sit there with housing, we sit there with the social work department, we sit there with a representative from the prison, and a couple of others on what that does is we share the information, so we get to know, we start to build up a good balanced picture, and also with the advocacy service that we're dealing with the victims, so we can build this picture up of who the high risk offenders are in the region that's happening across Scotland, and we can target them and get them in the best place for them, which is inside the jail. Is there a similar process in relation to victims of similar types of crimes and incidents, whereby that support network, that multiagency risk management group meets, and the support network is put, you know, a sport package is put around those victims in relation to those crimes? Has the fact that we now have a single police force made that a better system, or is it the same or what? I mean, that seems to me that so many things go by, because people aren't sharing the proper information fast enough. The fact that the process came about because it had been developed and implemented in legacy strath Clyde, and then when we moved to a single service, that was obviously seen as good practice, and it was then implemented across the rest of Scotland. Interesting. But that case that I mentioned with the conviction for nine rapes is not the only one, there's been several individuals who, through that process, have been identified, the cases have been built up, and then they go through the criminal justice system, and I've asked quite a few of them, I've had quite lengthy custodial sentences at the High Court. Mike, in relation to the local, regional and national resources, the task force, for example, we've got a team based in the north who cover the whole of the north region. If there's a perpetrator who, as Mike alluded to, has offended anywhere in Scotland, they have that remit to then go and deal with that across Scotland, so it's not down to the local officers, that means that they can get on with the local issues, whereas this national and regional resource can then go and identify the victims, build up that evidence case, because they're that national asset and that national resource, and they have that power to go across, or not the power, but the ability to go across Scotland and across divisions. No, I was just going to add to that. I know part of the FIFE visit included FIFE women's aid as well, and it's replicated in the document that partner organisations welcome the work of the domestic abuse task force, especially in relation to historic cases. It's not coming from us, it's coming from women's aid that local officers have better training and delivering a more consistent approach, so as well as us saying that it's our belief that things are improving, that's obviously a women's aid who are echoing that. You aren't going to the same issue, because Allyson wants to maybe come in on that, or is it a different issue? Well, I think we went a bit off issue to be perfectly honest. We're still back on local and national, and it's the balance, and getting the local things dealt with locally and where it can be an advantage for it to go up into the national, I think that's an issue there. Well, I think it's good to record that there's a lot of really positive stuff done in relation to domestic violence and victims. Can I just, and to stress Superintendent Steven, these aren't my notes, these are the notes that are in the pub remain. If there's officers spoke of— This is the first page, so we can find it for page eight, right? Officers spoke of being micromanaged, discretion having been taken away in a lack of trust. Now, we're also then told about areas where discretion had been exercised in relation to stop and search. I just wonder if there's a communication issue. Some people are in the loop for understanding the wider picture, and others aren't, and if that's something that's likely to be picked up on. No, it was to Superintendent Steven. Sorry, yes. Obviously, I can't argue against what the officers that you had the meetings with in relation to how they feel things have been in Police Scotland. What I can say is that, in terms of the division, the engagement that we have at all levels through the local area commander, through the command team at meeting with and communicating with officers directly, I know regularly myself and my colleagues are in the mustard rooms speaking to officers as you would do, as anyone does, but that flow of communication is a challenge, and there has been a lot of information that's come to officers. There is an element of scrutiny, because we're all accountable for the performance of the division. In essence, my view is that that's healthy scrutiny, because it keeps its equality assurance. No, I agree. Is there just maybe a need to reinforce why some things are happening? Cops are busy folk, maybe their minds are on the wider picture. I know, certainly, that, as a division, we have a series of engagement events, if you like, with First Line managers and inspectors. Our message, as a command team to the inspectors and sergeants, is to go and pass that message back through to the officers. Perhaps there's an opportunity for us to have those engagement events with officers themselves, rather than the ad hoc, just to ensure that we capture everyone. That's right. Thank you very much. I would just draw your attention to, from a v-division perspective, the under-page 3 communication shift briefings that were held at the start of every shift, and staff in divisional briefings were held regularly. Information was disseminated through the internet, so that's actually in there from the document from the visit to v-division, and that'll be happening elsewhere in Scotland, because there's a national process in place that's been implemented in terms of the briefing process that was brought down the road by Chief Superintendent Eddie Smith, who's now in Tayside. They'd implemented it elsewhere and it had worked, and it's now, we've had that process in place, and I imagine that's a reflection of that. Ultimately, change is unsettling for everybody, you know, and I think that we have gone through an absolutely massive change in terms of coming into Police Scotland, and process a little change is a new structure. It is unsettling, there's new processes in place for certain things, for a lot of things, and it will be unsettling, and it is unsettling, and it's for us as commanders and command teams to manage that with the local officers, and where there are issues highlighted, we'll address them. I'll take a lane next in, Alison, I'll have you. Thanks very much. First, just to say that I can confirm the issue of communication, and I think that they can be formed, can be on the record or off the record, and I think that the matter of the flicksticks might be, and the example where an officer came to me with a concern about flicksticks being removed from vehicles, and I took it to, yes, there are, it's a, they've got a formal name. If someone's in distress or in water, it's a device that you flick a rope out that they can grab, and then it's a cool thing. I know you knew what you were talking to each other about, because the rest of us actually have not come. I'm glad that you think so. I'm glad that you think so. He'd have to put Police Scotland, and there may well be a good result for everybody, because it might be that all vehicles have these in the future, so I think that that's the only addition to that, is that TS Leslie phoned up my secretary to speak to me about flicksticks, and she misheard him and thought he wanted to speak to me about lipstick, which would have been rather unadribbable. Would you like to deny a record that you ever asked him about lipstick? Don't want to go there, ma'am. Oh, well, that's not a deny, are you? I mean careful there. Yes. Well, particularly in Dumfries and Galloway, and in Fife, of course, as well, where, as both C.S. McLaren and C.S. Leslie have said, they were coterminous with the council, with the former police forces. I think that there's been a feeling, certainly in Dumfries and Galloway, that the introduction of Police Scotland has resulted in a lack of accountability, that somehow the scrutiny and accountability is not as it was. I wondered if you could give your view as to whether or not that is correct, because I know, certainly from the point of view of councillors and so on, there's a feeling that they don't have quite the same relationship with the forces that they did with the legacy forces. So it's not just for Dumfries and Galloway, obviously, it's across all of your areas, yes. That would be exactly the same. But we'll start with Chief Superintendent Leslie, I'm looking in a different way now, I'm just wondering which shade, but never mind. It's a good question. I think that at the start of Police Scotland, the committee local end of recent Galloway v division, they were trying to find their feet. And because it was a big change that had a legacy force, and I think it took a bit of time, I've certainly seen the process with them mature in recent times. And I can certainly say that on the 30th of June, at the last Police and Fire Scouting Committee, I got some very in-depth, detailed questions from members on a wide variety of subjects. And I keep going back to the fact as well that you're trying to develop the relationships. Obviously, there was a change in the political administration down there, which I think had an impact as well. And they were finding their feet. I like to think, and maybe I'm wrong, that I've worked hard at developing a strong working relationship with the elected members, and I keep going back. I don't want to keep repeating myself about the continuous improvement group. That's for me a good example. And the next meeting that we've got in the 10th of December, there's a lot of meaty subjects on that agenda that we're bringing there for members to give them the opportunity. For example, we know that the number of fatal road traffic accidents in the divisions up on last year, so we're getting an input from the national roads policing unit, so that they'll give members the opportunity to scrutinise us in terms of what we're doing to try and reduce those figures and to give them a better understanding of what's happening in terms of the issues there for us. Yes, chief superintendent. I think the other thing that I would pick up on in terms of scrutiny at a local level is that we all do it differently. So the processes are different across Scotland, depending upon the council areas and talking from a Fife perspective. It's a safer communities committee that forms our scrutiny board. So it's not always just about policing. It can be about policing. It can be about fire. It can be about the actual safer communities committee, the wider committee. That can bring in a whole host of different organisations, but all with similar outcomes that we're trying to achieve. So for me, even if I don't have a paper at that meeting, I'm not sure if my colleagues are the same, but if I don't have a paper I still attend that meeting and it's still very much an interactive meeting where we actually are scrutinised but are supporting our partners at the same time and trying to take business forward. And I think, as Mike alluded to as well, I think the important thing from a scrutiny perspective is that it's about the relationships outwith. So we get scrutinised on a quarterly basis, but that doesn't mean that we don't speak to our committees in between times, don't discuss issues with them and with our wider elected members, but certainly don't feel that we're not scrutinised or ineffectively scrutinised. I think when you're the one being scrutinised, you're certainly there to give an account of what you and your division have been doing. Some of us were at the local scrutiny summit that took place recently, and I think that that was really helpful just to understand what was happening in different areas. Even just, I know from my scrutiny members that were there, they'd picked up on some practice from other areas that they felt was really beneficial in looking at ways that we can maybe share different experiences across the board and see how we can look to improve things in terms of scrutiny. But definitely a moving picture and it'll be interesting to see how the scrutiny assessment and the reporting to scrutiny progresses as we move forward. I would just echo what my colleagues have said. I mean, by virtue of the fact that Mr Thomson couldn't make it, he had scrutiny in Murray, which he has made a commitment to go to, and I think that that obviously echoed in the report that Mr Finney has prepared in relation to that kind of level of partnerships that I've just taken. It's not Mr Finney, it was a report that was drawn together following his visit, yeah. If only he would prepare a report, but no, no, this is on behalf of the committee. Absolutely, apologies. So don't just refer into the paper that's in front of the committee. No, that's a committee paper, right? That certainly has, well, the commitment from a command team or as a commander, Chief Superintendent Thomson, has made that commitment in that, that you know that's where he is, and absolutely the kind of engagement at that level and the scrutiny level continues in a positive vein, and again inviting the national resources in to feed into that process. And indeed, we've had two sessions with members of our scrutiny board in Murray in the last one in September and one in October to cover specific issues that they had raised at the scrutiny board, so out with the actual scrutiny meeting. So it continues positively in B division. Just one final point, and that's just about the fact that local democratic accountability in my opinion is fundamental to policing by consent. It is, you've got to be held to account, and I really try to encourage the local team down there to ask the questions and maintain the relationships. A few of us were actually at the local scrutiny committee. I think I've got quite a number of us on the committee where they are as well, so it was interesting. I just wondered if I could ask you who you've used as to whether there is a potential for the devolution of more, both, more responsibility and also more budgetary control to divisional levels at least. I mean, is there, would that be of benefit in terms of being able to tailor the sort of policing and the sort of flexibility of decision making and so on if actually further responsibility was given to local commanders? Yes, yes. I think that in relation to that we actually, we do have control of parts of our budget, so we are able to manage that, especially in terms of police over time, police staff over time, so that gives us the flexibility to move resources to where we need locally to achieve a local priority or a local issue. So we do actually have that in place already. I suppose one other thing on scrutiny in terms of local and taking it even more local probably the same as Dumfries and Galloway five has local area committee, so as well as, you know, I'm being held to a divisional level for policing and safety in that area, each of the chief inspectors are also reporting at a local area committee level as well. So there are many layers of scrutiny, obviously that isn't quite so relevant in terms of budget, but certainly in terms of how we are performing and perceptions of policing in each area, that's very much at a local level. I would add to that that and I think it's on page three at the top. I made the comment when we were seeing on the first of June in my opinion, I feel that the organisation, the force, is maturing and that we're having conversations now that we didn't have before in terms of certain issues. And I think that that's down to the fact that, you know, it's start issues. Well, in terms of moving forward the staff survey, the eight forces had to come in to be one. So we had, there had to be, you couldn't have 14 different sheriffdoms, their chief constables, so I think two years in now, you can see we're having, that the organisation is maturing and is moving forward. That, I don't understand issues in moving forward, given example that you're now able, you feel that local have more input and not just input, but listen to and change things rather than talk down, which is what you've been, you know, we appreciate it takes a while. I think we're getting, we're, we're, there's more flexibility now in terms of looking at local priorities in terms of, you know, we've got a performance framework keeping people safe. I think it's now, there's a bit more scope for us to look at, for example, we in Dumfries recently, we had an issue with youth disorder and we got the opportunity with resources from the centre to do operation resolve, which was about tackling that issue, getting staff down from the road to assist us with that, to increase visibility and to address an issue that was a concern for the community. While you're on it, then can you give any examples from the other divisions where you've managed to, you know, you've gone back into having your priority come top of the pops as it were instead of the... One of the examples I would use is in relation to flexible policing teams, which were implemented as part of the, the kind of original Police Scotland kind of model, which is a team that could be deployed wherever in a division. In essence in the north, particularly in A and B division, we didn't feel that that was because of the geography that it fitted with what we required. That was fed back to the LVRD, which is a licence violation reduction department and team. And that was reviewed and ultimately a decision was taken that we could have the autonomy to retrieve those resources back into division and deploy them as we need to. I hear that's about resources, but you talked about an issue in your area, which was the youth disorder. What would have been yours for example the recent one that wouldn't? You'd be able to pursue that rather than the national ones. Let's take domestic violence, as we accept that, but something in your different areas that varies. So we get back to local emphasis. Well, again, but it touches on resources. You know, a very recent... I understand that, but what was the issue? A very recent example I've had in Elgin, particularly in relation to violence and disorder amongst the travelling fraternity. Securing national resources from the violence reduction task force who are based in the central belt, based in Glasgow, and have a team of six officers up into the Elgin area for a period of three or four days. Absolutely new issue to tackle that and deal with those particular issues very effectively. And again, it's just through that tasking process and access, equitable access to those specialist resources that are available to wherever you are in the country in terms of divisions. I suppose that other things, as well as having national priorities, we actually all do have our local priorities as well. So for 5th division this year, we're looking at dangerous driving. But I think in terms of moving that forward a bit further, when we look at, we've obviously got a local policing plan, everybody be aware of that. It's a legislative requirement. We have a single outcome agreement in each area and we also have community planning. But in terms of trying to tailor things as we move forward to make our priorities more local, we're now at a stage where we're starting to develop and think, well, can we take what is our local policing plan and actually make that part of our single outcome agreement? I know it's, I think it's perhaps in the D&G area, there's a talk about cluttered landscapes because we have a lot of plans, a lot of priorities, a lot of meetings. I don't just mean that from a police, I mean that on a partnership level. So this could be an opportunity for us to still have a policing plan but make the policing plan more part of our community planning process in order to take that forward. Alison Johnstone One of the objectives of the legislative reform, of course, was to protect and improve local services. Just last week, we learned of the merger of A and B division. Can the officers tell me how they think that will protect and improve local services? And will we be sitting here this time next year learning of more mergers? Absolutely, that has B division. I think the strength and of divisions has been on the table, has been extensive consultation both locally and nationally in relation to that proposal. I think personally speaking, as operational superintendent for B division covering Aberdeenshire and Murray, there is absolutely an invisible barrier between A and B division as it stands at the moment, where I would have much, if I had access to those resources as well, where there's an issue that I need to address in B division and I could utilise the resources that service Aberdeenshire City it would make my job much easier. So for me personally, I think it will be a much more efficient and effective use of resource. We already have combined resources in relation to our intelligence department at our joint resource, our referral unit at our joint resource coming in the pipeline is around the analytical support aspect. So there are a number of areas where we already share a resource in essence between both divisions and I think personally speaking, it will make my job much, much easier in terms of operational delivery at a ground level. That said, there is a commitment and absolutely a commitment that from local area commander level down, nothing's going to change. So you're still going to have your local policing teams in the areas where they are at the moment, your local policing inspectors and the area commanders as they stand. So in essence, it will make it much easier for myself as an operational superintendent to deploy those resources where it's required, where the operational need and demand arises across the area. I imagine a division will be saying the same thing. So I'm much more likely that the city will draw the resources done away from the rural areas. Is that not the case? It is absolutely a concern that has been raised, but that again is for us as a command team to deploy the resource and maintain a resource where it's required. We're still going to have to, you know, we're still required to service calls in Bucky and Elgin in Stonehaven, Lawrence Kirk. So absolutely, there is a commitment that that from local area commander level down, that will not change. And the driver for that was saving money? In terms of the strengthening, no, it was to improve, it was to improve local delivery of the service. Ultimately, there will be savings that will be made because there will be rationalisation. There are still some departments where we have two specific units, one in A and one in B, but as I say, much of our, well, a number of our areas are already shared resource. So there will ultimately be savings, but the commitment again is that those savings that are made will be put back into local policing. I wonder if the other officers have a view on whether or not this is the start of a process that will see the divisions reduced over the next year or two. I don't think anybody could second guess what the future of the 14 divisions would look like. I think to echo what Kate is saying, and if I take Fife as an example, I think what's important in terms of local policing, it's not so much what sits at the top level in a division, it's what sits at a grass-root level within a division, it's having local officers being able to do their job at a local level, so having officers that have a ward responsibility, and we see that working in Fife. Tace, I had a slightly different model, but a lot more. Again, a lot of community officers deploy in each area, so while you might have a slightly smaller command team covering an area, I think what's important is that you have a model that suits your area, and a model that will suit one area won't necessarily suit another, so while you might have a division that was two old divisions coming into one, you might have slightly different models as a subset within that division. We'll still have the three local authority areas and we'll still be committed to scrutiny for all three areas, so we'll still have to service the requirements from the community and the public in the whole of the region. I'll just further centralisation, it's hard to see how that makes it more responsive. We spent much of today talking about the tensions between national priorities and divisional priorities, and now there's a further tension in it. I've got time, convener, to turn the point on that. Obviously, there's a new chief constable coming in and they'll take stock, and there's obviously going to be this opportunity for the chief constable to visit, as I understand, at various areas during the course of the year, so that'll give an opportunity for local elected members to influence the debate. One would hope that chief constable would have visited all the areas of Scotland all the time, but that's... No, no, no, no, for an hour, and that battles over, I think. We haven't talked about control rooms and it did feature when we made our visits, and obviously since then, HMICS has produced its interim report. It would be useful to hear from you how you think the control room closures have had an impact on the way you deliver local policing. I'll start on that one. I think that when you came to visit us, certainly we were going through the transition. As you've alluded to, we've had the interim report, and we're now waiting on the full report, which I think is due very shortly, and we'll see what comes out from that. I think that it would be unrealistic to say that there wasn't a change process to go through, as there is with any level of change, but from my perspective, certainly at the moment, we are working well with our new control room, we have built relationships with our new control room, a lot of our processes are very similar to what we had before, our response times are good, and it's really just the case of continuing to build those relationships and take things forward. Our scrutiny panel, as I've mentioned earlier on, they've had inputs from the command and control team prior to the move, so they had an understanding of what the new control room setup would look like, and came on Tuesday evening to Bilston Glen, and were able to tour the facilities and were pleased on the whole with what they saw. There were a couple of things they wanted to pick up on, which we would expect, but on the whole, they were really pleased. I think that the feedback from other areas when they've gone in and visited the control room was very similar, that they're impressed with how far things have come in terms of the move to the new control areas. Obviously, we lost the control room in May last year, it moved to Government, and in the last 10 days, as I said, I've met with a lot of elected members on the MSPs, et cetera, and asked them if there were any concerns they wanted to raise and to date. In the last 10 days, there was nothing raised in terms of the local control room moving up the road, and the call has been taken in the one-on-one system at Govan. Can I just say also that we've got HMI CS on the, when I think it were, if you agree, the 3 December talk about the report on control rooms. On a local matter, officers in Fife reported to the convener on myself difficulties arising from the size of the hubs into which they were organised, and they said it made it difficult, they were losing time basically travelling back and forward to the hub. Have you had an opportunity to review that at all? We're still looking at that, and we're looking at that as part of the community policing model as well for the ward officers. The hubbing is more, it's more relevant to the response officers because they tend to work out from the hubs, so it is something that will continue to look at. I suppose when the reality of it is, Fife had a model previously where we had a lot of stations with very few police officers in them, and there was rationalisation, and that rationalisation was on the cards and started before the move to Police Scotland, so that isn't necessarily something that's new, it's just something that's been evolving, but we will continue to look at that and get the feedback. Our main hubs in the west of Fife and the new divisional, sorry, new area commander who's come in is certainly keen to look at that, and she's having those discussions on going with her staff, from her inspector, sergeants and officers around how they're finding the hubbing, but yeah, it's something that we will continue to look at. There were two specific issues raised just about complaints from the public on the control rooms, no longer sending officers to incidents that they would previously attend. And also a very odd one, the officers had to use 101 numbers to speak to officers in another area. Is that still the case? It doesn't seem a very sensible way to progress. No, it's... Yeah, 101 system, it's internally in V division we can dial around the system quite easily because it's a Cisco system. When I'm travelling up the A74, for example, I need to speak to someone in that division, obviously I dial 101, and I'm sure that's what colleagues will do elsewhere. And is there a delay then in getting through? I think that was the suggestion that they then had to wait in line when they had very important information to trans... Well, there's a question there now at where you hit three on your mobile if you know the person that you want to speak to, which speeds up the process. So that's been addressed to the extent, yeah? Yeah, yeah. Yes. I have something coming on that as well. I think certainly from some areas that an officer, you know, or a member of the public feeling that they didn't get a police response when they previously would have, that's down to changes in process as well. We've now in the control rooms got a public assistance desk so it may be that if somebody's phoning in for something that doesn't necessarily require a police response, it can be dealt with at that first point of contact. So I know Fife had a public assistance desk historically, so that wasn't a new thing for us. So that could have been... I don't know for certain if that's what's behind those comments, but it may be that changes in process, more efficient process, is that sometimes people don't necessarily need the police and indeed sometimes people don't actually want the police to attend if it's something that's quite low level that they can resolve over the phone. They're sometimes happy to do that. The other thing that we have is obviously a diary system in terms of control room as well. So if somebody phones in with a complaint, they can actually diary a specific time, obviously not an emergency, but a non-emergency call, a routine call, and they can get a diary appointment that suits both the individual and the organisation. And I think that's a massive step forward for the areas that didn't happen before. I think that the specific complaint was a break into a car on three different occasions. And despite that, and no time was that, a police officer deployed there, so it may be just linking the incidents and the intelligence and process of doing that. That should be resolved now through the storm, through the control system that we use. It should link with previous incidents. I think that as a final question is about morale, because certainly the survey indicated worryingly the level of morale. I mean, as you're quite right, policing at the ground, grassroots level or anywhere, but basically grassroots level is by consent of morale is low for the officers. It doesn't make for good policing. Perhaps I'd ask you to comment on how the morale is at your local level and how, at a national level, it can be dealt with to improve the morale amongst officers. That's a good question. I think that the pensions changes have had a significant impact on staff. If you're talking to them about morale, that's probably one of the number one things that they will mention in terms of the extra years that they have to work and what that pension will be at the end of the day, so that has had by far the most significant impact. We're going through the biggest change in public service and human beings, in my opinion, like consistency in their life and this change process will take time, but what I would say is, in terms of morale, that the boys and girls out there on the front line gout on a daily basis, they do a cracking job. I came in on Monday morning there and the cells were full at Dynfries and Strunrar. We had Halloween at the weekend, alcohol feeling a lot of violence, but there were a lot of people who were locked up, arrested for assaults, etc. We had one individual locked up for allegedly five rapes. So, in my opinion, morale is low, there's factors, but the staff, it's still a great job and they're going out there doing a great job, so I would just make that point. I was asking also what a national level could be done from your new chief constable, whatever up at the top, that would help you with morale, because I think they've had issues about getting you into a pickle when morale fell over. I think the new chief constable is going to come in and fundamental to his future will be looking at this. Or her. There are no hers as there are no hers. I should have applied. I knew I'd missed something, yes. Will be the staff survey which highlights issues like that, and there'll be an action plan to take that forward. And that'll be, I would imagine, for the new chief and the command team, and you can see that in some briefing documents, stuff that's come out for Mr Richard, and they recognise that it's an issue and that they're going to put measures in place to try and address it. Yes. Yeah, I would just echo what Mike Sayon, I think the staff survey has highlighted several issues, but it's also highlighted some really positive aspects of policing. And the main one, as Mike's described in an operational context there, is that the officers still have a passion for what they do. It's still a vocation. They join policing as we all did, because actually it's what we want to do. You want to make a difference, and that still comes through very strongly. They have really good relationships with their first line manager. So for most of our officers, that's their sergeant as their first line manager. For us as a command team, or for the executive team, it's just recognising that and building on that and thinking out the best ways that we can support those line managers to support their staff. Now we've got the staff survey results. It's that engagement process and then action planning, but not us action planning for our staff, but our staff engaging with us. It's been picked up in a few other themes this afternoon, but actually listening to our staff, because that's what will drive Maral up, is actually being listened to and feeling that they can influence how policing moves forward. Again, I would just echo what my colleagues have said. And I think the kind of welfare and wellbeing aspect and what came through in the staff survey I think was somewhere in the region of whatever percentage it was, felt they were really strongly supported at a first line manager level. That obviously impacts on the morale piece. I think that the comment that Mr Finnie made as well at the very start just around the negative media, everyone that's in the police service, whether you're a police officer or a police member of staff, it's your family. So when the headlines are slating that organisation, they're slating your family. And I think people take that personally. They take it as a personal slant almost. And that affects Maral across the board as well. And I think again, that's something nationally that we can't stop what's printed in the press, but it does impact on how the guys and girls out there feel when they're delivered in the service. Well, we've gone right up to the buffers. I thank you very much for letting you and thank you very much for coming and giving your evidence today. And I'm sure back there, the boys and girls, I mean, listening to what you've been saying and if they think that you've not put the case properly because you've told us, you're all approachable, you will listen. Thank you very much. Now, I'm just keeping you back a moment because I'm just going to tell you that. I formally closed this meeting. Thank you. And then just wait a minute.