 Hey Christian, thanks so much for coming to the show. We really appreciate it. I hear your back at Red Hat I I had you know, I was really surprised to learn that whatever few weeks ago. Yeah. Yeah, and you said this was your what week This is my third week in nice. Yeah, it's a third week in and they always they already have me flying out So it's putting on a an old pair of comfortable shoes. I would say right right or a whole bunch of comfortable swag Oh, yeah, exactly. Yeah, like I didn't really have to buy anything new. So, right? You already branded Yeah, it's pretty awesome and so you came back to do which which group are you working with or when you're working on? Yeah, so I'm in the Cloud services BU. Yeah now so working on Managed services based on Red Hat technology. Nice. Nice. Yeah, one of the things I think people don't really appreciate Very much like as a developer is like how nice it is to not have to build everything yourself. Yes And like and having somebody else running it is is very very useful It's funny because I work with the students all the time and they you know when when they're presented with like with Project that is like build this website or whatever. It does not occur to them to go like okay Well, I can get this functionality from this API over here I see that functionality from that API over there And I think it's only as you get some seniority that you start to figure that stuff out But it's really, you know, like it's so much better than you know Just kind of write the little bit that you actually care about Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly and let and let you know Someone else take care of like the heavy lifting. I actually talked to someone yesterday who was Who worked for a self-intek company. Yep, and They had to do everything in-house. Yeah, and now the this guy works for some, you know, what web company, right? So right and he's like what we can run, you know, you know stuff in the cloud Like this is this is this is so much easier. This is so much easier Like I don't have to take care of you know every single little aspect of every single little thing. So yeah, yeah, it is definitely There's definitely advantages to it right for sure. I still remember when I was in consulting, you know I did a lot of financial services work and It was kind of early days of the cloud and even even the later ones But you it was so funny when like having a conversation, you know like sales or whatever like trying to convince a financial services company to go to the cloud and And they'd be like what about the security and I'm like Well, why don't you go and do some sort of audit on your Firewall and find out how many holes you actually have for all the partners over the years It might actually be more secure to be in the cloud Yeah, at least you have some awareness of what you're setting up again So, yeah, so I've been I've been a big fan for a long time So but your real thing as we all know is the get-ups thing I actually just referenced to you in my learning path to say you should go check out Now I just blanked Get up. What was your show? Oh, get up sky to the galaxy. Yeah, that's like I blanked on the middle words I was like get off some galaxy. Yeah, I think it's too many syllables But you know, it's a good it's a good reference to a nice tech book, you know Have you actually read the hitchhiker? Yes. Yeah. Yeah So at the end of the show like we're going to do our last episode and it'll be 42, right? So yeah, it was it was funny that it wasn't even intentional So tell me a little bit about like what kind of why get-ups like what's the point of you know, you know It's kind of like what does it even mean plus like what is it, you know, what's the point? Yeah? Yeah, so anytime I talk about get-ups especially like if I'm just like giving an elevator pitch Yeah, so to speak right is I always start start with DevOps, right because like DevOps really has Has been really a movement right from from like, you know, I know it's been years, but we're still talking about it, right because it's you know You know, it's a culture it's it's it's it's a it's a way to do work to expedite your development process and Not a lot of people are there yet like even today, right? Like it's just because it's just such a cultural shift, right, right? and I always start with DevOps because like get-ups isn't Isn't like a replacement, right? Get-ups isn't like another another thing like get like DevOps is Like get-ups is DevOps, right? I always say that that get-ups is DevOps actualized. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's like an implementation. It's like an implementation. Yeah, so like I always say that DevOps is the culture and get-ups is how that culture looks like in practice. Okay. Yeah, I can see that and so You know, it all started with this You know with this whole infrastructure as code kind of software as code type type of things I mean, you know, I think most of us remember using things like puppet, right? I was a big chef guy, right? I was using chef a lot and It all really kind of started there is like okay. Well like I kind of want to prevent drift at a massive scale, right? I have like all this stuff that I want to make sure it's all You know all in sync and everything is how I how I want it to be and so I think as the Industry has progressed right like we had we saw this whole you know the whole Paz war right between like like like mezzos and you know open shifts right and Cloud Foundry and then The you know player two has entered the the fight right with with Kubernetes and essentially like it's one, right? Like I don't think anyone will fight me on that on that opinion that Kubernetes has won That war. Yeah, totally. I actually was trying to Birkis about the same thing Yes, we're talking about like the you know kind of the history of Kubernetes a little bit and like, you know he did a really good example of like it was kind of in the middle and And it was like I can't remember his exact phrasing But he said something along the lines of you know, is it the happy? Oh, that was it Is it the happy medium or you know the nothing-to-know-one kind of thing? Yeah, like and nobody knew right at first and then but it turns out like looks like Kubernetes really was the happy medium And it was it's where everyone was kind of drifting towards yes Yeah, it really has just kind of now. It's the thing now now It's the thing and I think with with Kubernetes came with like a lot of challenges Mm-hmm, especially now with everything being like oh, we need to shift left right like everything needs to be You know started development cycle and really when they're super short. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and and that that became a challenge because Developers really don't really care about infrastructure. Yeah, I mean just like they don't really I don't want to care Oh, they don't want to care I'm gonna say that they don't care is they don't want to care about it right like they just they trust us You know, they they want a level of trust mm-hmm and so Get ops as a practice really developed from the a few things right one SREs mm-hmm just wanting, you know to keep the lights on all right at massive scale Right, and this is and and the the phrase get-offs was coined by Alexis Richardson right from we've works Oh, and yeah, yeah, so it was coined by Alexis Richardson and we've works and the story is that the They lost a whole region in AWS That's never good. Yeah, that's never good. Yeah, so in fact figured a config right and and you know the classic story And they took that a Tire region and they were down for like 20 minutes and they came back up and which is and I think this is indicative of Alexis Richardson He's They said The first question he asked was why are we up so soon? Oh, which is funny Usually a CEO is like why are we down right? He's like, why did we come up so soon? And they're kind of explaining the process they had and And he goes oh that kind less like get ops is like everything there's a single source of truth, right for everything Right, which is where the get comes from get ops, right? and they you know developed internal tools and which end up being flux and You know right around the same time into it was developing Argo right the Argo project internally had into it you know they the acquired athletics and you know that development team came up with The Argo project which was a series of tools, but one of them being Argo CD, right and Argo CDs really the a Way to abstract Kubernetes away from the developer, right and that was the point of Argo CD and that that's kind of Why it's so popular? You know, there's there's two schools of thought, right? Like, you know, we're in a we're in a Ford, right? There's you know, like I say get ops is muscle cars Yeah, and whether you like Chevy is or Ford, you know, like you just like muscle cars, right? So kind of like you either an Argo guy or your flex guy But like you're you're you're a fan of get ops in general so much like Ford because we're driving around in one We have course like Argo. Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, exactly. Of course. We like Argo So just for the simple fact that it that it abstracts that That complexity right right from the developers so now kind of one of the things that you're kind of getting at right is like One of the things that is Sort of like the thinking behind the Kubernetes is almost taken out of config management in this idea that Instead of just, you know, basically, you know, setting up a thing we describe a thing the way we want it to be Yes, and then we let the system make it true, right? And I think what's so compelling about like get ops right is that you have You have a way to articulate it in a way that everyone agrees is the is Right one, you know, so whether it has bugs or whatever at least everybody knows where it's all coming from. Yes, which is huge, right? Yeah, exactly and You know and you you touch an interesting point because I was at get ops con yesterday. Oh, yeah and you know listening to all the talks and You know someone brought up, you know, obviously Kubernetes right because you know where a cube con and get ops is that's the cornerstone, right where it came from the You know the the idea of the promise theory came up because of Kubernetes, right? It's like you trust the system. It, you know, it has a promise, right? And it'll complete that right so it's it'll and get ops Really takes, you know, like the Kubernetes promise us it'll get things done and get ops I'm gonna I'm gonna butcher this quote because this is from from the guy's this is from a talk I heard and this is a Lee from VMware. He said that a get ops is promises we make to each other Mm-hmm, whereas there is you know from developers and operators they can both look yeah Yeah, and a configuration and be like, okay, that's what's in the system currently, right? And really that's the power of get ops right like they both, you know both Dev an ops you go. Yeah, we almost we almost killed the seagull, which is which would have been I think at first Well, pleasant in the first Yeah, I don't think we've done that in the show We did almost kill a goose yesterday Yeah, the birds don't really seem to care about the cars here. Yeah, but you know, whatever Sorry We had to call that out So it's yeah, so both like so that's why I kind of say it's like, you know, it's devops actualized Right, it's it's it's kind of like it almost makes people work together because there's a single source of truth Yeah, all all groups can look at it and say, okay, that's how the system looks like right now Yeah, and can agree on you know using get workflows right agree on what's going to be on the system, right? Because you know you you those that use like get workflows, you know, there's you know a series of tests and a series of of of Approvals that need to happen before something gets merged Well, it's one of the I mean one of the things I like about it a lot too is like, you know This is actually one of the reasons I started using vagrant way back in the day was Because I know for certain that all the stuff I need to run this application Is there because I build it fresh every time, right? And I think get ops, you know kind of brings that same promise, right to the system It's like, you know, so not only am I sure that whatever I'm running in production is what I believe it to be Right, but then on top of that and kind of getting back to supply chain stuff Which yeah talk about a minute, but it's also the same exact stuff that every other developer has right because I still remember You know being like a Windows developer, you know many years ago and like refusing to take updates because I had no idea when The update would get pushed. Yeah break my software. Yeah, and and what's so cool about this, right? Is I can actually say okay, I want version ABC and I want this there and I want that there And while you trade off some upgrade ability or automatic upgrade ability at the same time you also know exactly what's shipping Yes, so yeah, I was gonna kind of use that. It's a little bit of a segue into talking about like the fancy new Slaying term of S bomb. Yeah exactly for the listeners though. So what is S bomb stand for? Yeah, it's sense for Software build the build the materials right right so you get you got the bomb right BOM is build the materials now It's just like the software build the materials and the idea of being is that I know exactly is You know kind of like a build the materials. I have a list. I know exactly Everything that went into a particular piece of software and and you know increasingly We're starting to get the ability to ratify that we're increasingly get the ability to like sign off that it is Literally true not just theoretically true, which I think is one of the nice things about software that you can't get with a real build Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah Yeah, exactly Well, there's there's that aspect of it as well right because you got your your S bombs where basically it's it's just kind of like an inventory of everything and this is really useful for Security professionals yep because it's You know being secure that's like it's I always put it in quotes because it's like it's not like it's not like a North Star Right, right like to be secure is never to turn on your computer right like From the wall from the wall throw it in the ocean like it's it's it's That's like it's like it's like it's a spectrum, right? It's like how many how much really security is how much risk are you willing to bear right and the S bomb kind of Tells you okay We need to update this piece of software, but this piece of software we can stand You know we can mitigate that risk somehow, right? We need this particular library for whatever reason, right? It may have a vulnerability, but we mitigate it in other ways, right? So you can make a better decision based on the S bomb And it just kind of just tells you where where it is and another aspect of it is to sign particular things right, right? So like there's like You know the whole trust of verify sort of thing. Okay, like you have S bomb. That's fine But how do I how do I verify that it's that it's there as well? So there's that other aspect of Signing your S bombs right or signing particular things right like either like libraries or packages or Container images for example where it's like you can verify like okay, even though it may be vulnerable at least I know That vulnerabilities there, right? Right. Yeah I mean, I think a lot of particularly like on the development side of the house, right? Don't you know a lot of people don't realize how much? Kind of signing security or whatever is involved in most package managers You know it's like like everything that you're getting has been like verified six ways from Sunday Yep to actually be what it claims to be it doesn't mean it doesn't have any bugs But you do know for certain that it is what it claims to be yeah, right at the very least right? You know it is exact I'm getting exactly what they say that I'm getting right and with I think one of things that People also like I said often don't realize right is with the containerization of the world or whatever We're getting a lot less There's a lot more models of like software delivery now that are a lot more kind of open-ended And so making sure that we have a kind of generic tools like the SBOM kind of push To verify we know exactly what is in there and provable Is really really useful because we don't we can't just rely on like a Linux package manager anymore It's not enough. Yeah, it's not enough Yeah, right because we have all these other models for doing development or deployment really yeah But yeah, and it goes beyond you know, it's like the whole ecosystem right like you said like Linux packages You know whether you're using like like DNF right like RPMs or or Debian packages You know those are signed, but you also have like things like like npm right? I think npm That that whole left yeah, exactly. Yeah, so like that whole thing I think brought I Mean if it wasn't like security wasn't on everyone's mind before it was definitely After it seemed like after that incident everyone's like whoa like yeah Yeah, maybe we shouldn't just like be downloading packages from npm even like it's because it's just a repository right right like we don't necessarily know What goes in that right? Yeah, I mean the one for me really was open SSH, right? Oh, yeah, whatever which I can't remember. Yeah, I can't remember which one I think that was a bash one, but yeah, I know what you're about But yeah, it was one of the yeah and and realizing like 95% of the internet infrastructure is reliant on this one piece of software. Yeah, that has no like financial support Oh, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's like wait what you know You know, I always like I'm always kind of unhappy with Red Hat for the amount of money They actually put into like Python for example. Yeah, yeah, you know, it's like So much of Linux relies on Python. Yeah, you know And yeah, it's like and but it's kind of like in the background and so you're always like that'll be fine And then you find out, you know, like the stage you're like nope. Nope. No, it wasn't fine. We'll pause for the goose Yeah, we'll pause for the goose here. We have uh Goose crosser. Yeah goose crossing here Which is um, it's interesting that they don't fear. Yeah, not There's no there's no fear which kind of makes me happy because it makes me feel that people actually do pause for Right Yeah, but at the same time they're geese and everyone knows they're mean. Yeah, exactly. So it's yeah Yeah, it's actually really funny at Boston University. There's um, the like the student union like where you know Where all the food is and all that stuff are one of the many places Um, so Boston like most of you know, the north of the u.s. Has a periodically a lot of geese Um, so so there's all these flocks of geese that'll randomly wander around But we also have and this is in the middle of downtown Boston, right? Yeah, um turkeys Wild turkeys and wild turkeys are also not particularly nice. Yeah Both there'll be clusters of both outside the student union on the regular and basically you have now stopped all these students from like eating Because I can't get in the building. It's it's like both funny and sad. Yeah So going going back to get off a little bit, um, the One of the things that I think is really interesting about it is like, you know Trying to you know, kind of like kubernetes does is you're trying to model these things in terms of you know, what you want the state to be And that's a that's a really different way of thinking and I think it's hard for you know, people to wrap their head around What what do you kind of recommend or how do you tell how do you talk to people about? You know when they're first wanting to look at get ops and maybe and I think dev ops is also not terribly well understood by a lot of people Yeah, yeah, um, you know and just you know shout out go read the phoenix project if you haven't yes You know, it's a it's a great little fictional book that really talks about dev ops and explains it well But what do you kind of tell people how do they like wrap their head around this stuff? Yeah, yeah, well, you kind of touched on it a little bit. It's really You know people are hearing get ops, right and it's obviously but it's it's purposely a buzz buzzword, right? Earworm me, right? Yeah, like it it's even it's so bad that like it just sticks with you. Um But the um I always say just like start looking at your culture because like Conway's law always comes into play, right? Because it's like too many people try to like use a system in order to fix Something versus you're right like fixing a culture or fixing a process where yeah Whereas like first you need to fix the process in order to take advantage of the system But um, you know, it it really um, but that doesn't mean you don't can't take advantages of some of What get ops offers you right even even without the cultural shift Yeah, even with that cultural shift, right a lot a lot of a lot of the times get ops starts at the operation level whereas Um, you know now you have like a ton of you know before you know in the world You'd have like a bunch of kubernetes. Uh, sorry a bunch of vm Everywhere, right? Like you have vm sprawl Everywhere. Well now you have like cluster sprawl with kubernetes. Yeah, right like so you kind of you know you you switch one You know trade one evil for one year for another one now now you have that that massive sprawl and it starts with um with administrators really wanting to be able to manage Clusters at scale and you know, again, you know, making sure they're all consistent making sure everything's in the in the way that you Wanted to similarly to what we had like with you know puppet ansible right that sort of thing But I think what people often don't realize right is like We get much higher like utilization rates out of you know any particular piece of hardware using something like containers Rather than using vm's the thing is is that what we also end up with is a lot more of them just like in count Um, and so as a result, you know at scale now, you know, it's it's Possible right for a single like admin to manage, you know 80 machines, you know vm's or whatever Yeah, um, but when you talk about moving all that software to containers, you just turned it into a thousand Yeah, like exponentially, right? It just it just blows up. Yeah, and if you're not using these kinds of systems It's just it's untenable, right? Like yeah, it's just no way you could hire all day and you still won't fix it Yeah, um, so yeah, I think that's a I think that's a good way to try to talk about the story It's just like you're trying to wrap your head around what's actually going on And trying and trying to manage something right right they're trying to you know The you know organizations are constantly and I guess now especially nowadays trying to do more with less Right, right the the they want to grow But you know they can't you can't just like hire your way out of it a lot of times either right like there's that that aspect of it there's the um You know the uh, I'm going to butcher this this quote as well. I'm butchering quotes, right? So like that That's the thing right now, but it's we haven't had a lot of coffee Okay. Yeah, exactly. It's pretty early in the morning, especially for me and my jet like, um, you know, they they say, you know, like Three pregnant women doesn't make the baby come out in three months, right? Right? adding more resources and and there's actually A lot like, you know, one of those Conway laws, um, you know more laws I forget what that's all but like adding more resources doesn't necessarily mean things. They're gonna go fast Yeah, yeah, I can't think of anything and so you need to find out like different ways to um Do more with less right like you and you know, that's the organizations are demanding these things and um, you know, the Necessities in mother intervention. So that's why like all these tools things like argo things like flux right things like kubernetes came out Because it's like, okay. Well, we need to start Utilizing our resources better starting, um, you know manage these resources better and starting to do You know try to grow with what we already have Right, totally. Yeah, and and one of the things I want to like I always like to be careful of is that You know, we often will say, you know, do more with less or whatever But like this is not necessarily an opportunity to reduce your workforce. It's more like Your your scale of things to be managed is growing kind of exponentially And so you're really just trying to do more with the same, you know, and that's and so I like to kind of clarify that because I think Like particularly, you know, you take executives or whatever they look at this as like Here's an opportunity to save some money. Well, that's not quite what we mean It's more like what we want to do is increase the resilience of the stuff you're paying for already that what you already have Yeah, and and I think it's an important like distinction, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah It's very important distinction. Yeah, we say and and that's like the the phrase like more with less We don't necessarily mean that right What it means is like like you said is the um the ability To scale with what you already have right right, you know So I actually talked about this with my students a fair amount when I explained like various Development methodologies is that waterfall is actually a lot cheaper than agile Yes, right because you know exactly what you're getting into you can plan for it. You scale it, you know, you do it one time Um, so when you go to agile, you're not going to see be saving money Most likely what you're doing is getting higher quality output. Yes And and like, you know, I think that's one of the things that's one of those traps when people who've never actually developed software Are trying to manage like software teams is they they don't really understand the the weirdness that is software development Yeah, yeah, well and also, uh, you know, they're kind of just playing off the the waterfall thing. It's it's not and we always um Demonized waterfall also as well. Yeah, and it's not necessarily a bad thing right right It's just another methodology, right? It's just another way of Well, and if you if it's a if it's the right kind of environment, it makes a lot of sense I give the example to the students is like, you know, there's like embedded software You know is often a good use case for waterfall because you know exactly what you need in that cell tower, right? Exactly. Yeah, um, but when you're trying to build, you know, the the one who really brought it to the forefront I think of at least is um Gmail when it was it was in beta for like 10 years for like 10 years. Yeah, you needed an invite. I remember that right and so You know and the idea that you know, I don't know if they were intentionally doing this But like, you know, at least for me it was like, yeah, the idea here is that we're perpetually evolving it We're not, um, you know, we we don't know when it's going to be done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly We don't know we it's it's it's always in beta. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I think that's uh Kind of an interesting but you know often lost distinction Because I think all of us as you know, who do this stuff, we kind of know it instinctually Because it's the nature of our work. Yeah, right? But if you come from the a little bit from the outside, it's a lot less obvious So I had a conversation with uh, you know in one of these other interviews with uh, I think I was talking to Katie Komondji Um, and she mentioned a thing that will horrify you Have you heard of sheet ops? No, no, this is managing your infrastructure with a spreadsheet. Oh, man. Okay. Using that to get to kubernetes evil Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, man. I was like Plausible totally totally can see people doing this. Um, but uh, I thought I thought you and yeah, I'm morbidly curious I'm like, I actually want to see it. I'm actually intrigued. I'm like, I need to go like look it up But I haven't had a chance yet because I think it's it's both horrifying and you know Kind of Interesting, you know, kind of interesting. Yeah, kind of interesting interface, right? I think which is it's kind of weird Where I know we're going um, a little off topic on here. I think it's kind of what we do. Yeah, it's what we do is just Yeah, it's all organic. What it's kind of interesting how like, um, Microsoft office Um, like really excel became the king where where everyone thought it was going to be like like a word document Right, but now like now now we have like google sheets, right? And it's but like it's same idea, right? Like everyone lives in a spreadsheet nowadays for a reason, right? Right. Um, yeah, which like It's it's one of those things. It's because it's so easy to start something in a spreadsheet, right? Yes Yeah, and then all of a sudden you have this Horribly Crazy thing. Yeah, and uh, and you're like, I should just start it with a database. Yeah, exactly You know to be honest, right? Like this is actually one of the things I miss the most about the like Like kind of the lack or at least seeming lack of the easy availability of Microsoft access Um, oh access. Yeah, because you used to be able to just like Start a thing as easily as you did in a spreadsheet But you could do it actually in a database even if it was a relatively lightweight database. Um, and uh And so it's kind of funny that that's kind of falling off and instead now we have everyone building databases In spreadsheets, yeah, you know, I've seen some spreadsheets where it's like man This this should have just been an access like I would rather have them use an access Yeah, like it's something, you know, you know one of the really Like phrases that I came out of the ruby community that I really appreciate is, uh, you know dry Yeah, you know, you know, don't repeat yourself And that's the problem with the spreadsheets, right? It's like it's just so it's so wet, right? Yeah Exactly. So it's not dry. Yeah So yeah, I just thought I was I was like as you say right truly horrified but at the same time morbidly curious morbidly curious Absolutely. Very curious. But uh, so I'll have to go check that out. Um, so talking a little bit about argo and get ops You actually posted some content to cube by example about this, right? Yeah. Yeah, so, um, I Cube by example didn't have an argo module. So, um, I ended up Contributing cube by example, uh, and now now there's a I don't know what you guys call it track learning path learning path now There's a path for for, um For argo cd. And so I I always like the the analogy of Um, I don't know if you ever heard Eric Jacobs analogy of a plane crashing. No, I don't think I've ever heard this So I'll tell you we both used to work for it. Yeah, so yeah So he has this analogy and I actually just took it and simplified. So I'll tell I'll tell you his And I'll tell you mine because mine's less horrifying But he's he's he said that imagine, um, you know, you're in an airplane and like the Pilots all pass out for whatever reason, right? It's like the movie airplane, right? Maybe they ate bad fish. Um, and Um, you know, you have to you know, you're in the cockpit um A manual for the cockpit is absolutely useless to you, right? Because there's nothing in there. It tells you what every little gadget does There's nothing in there that tells you how to land a plane, right? So my analogy is is I actually bought a Vitamix Oh, yeah, yeah the blender. Yeah, fantastic. Love it. Um, and it came it came with a manual that it has actually a pretty extensive manual um That tell you like what all the buttons do and you know how to like set it up and everything Um, that's great, right? But it also came with a manual on how to make a smoothie, right? I give you recipes, right? So this is kind of like the approach I took with Um, uh, with the learning path for Argo city, right? I basically take you from zero to smoothie Yeah, yeah, it's essentially right like I like you like I you know zero to hero, but now I'm That's my new catchphrase, right? Yeah, zero to smoothie where I try to uh, just um Basically take you from zero. You have no knowledge of anything. Um, and then you know at the very end you get, uh Something that you can use right right. Oh, that's cool. That's uh, yeah That's one of the things um That I always have struggled with the development teams is like when I you know had a development team I've even been doing it with my students when they're working on projects is like, okay I want you to describe how the thing works, but I also want a document that tells that tells someone how To add the next feature, you know, because like where does it go? You know, or if you wanted, you know, you have all these ideas for what the project could be in the future You know how where would you put those? You know, or where would you start to think about putting those? Because you you have an idea when you think of this about what how you would do it So explain that in the documentation because that is as useful to the next team as like how the thing currently works Um, yeah, so but that's I like said zero to smoothie. That's really good. Uh, my Vitamix by the way, uh, has uh two buttons There's on and off. Oh on and off. Okay. Um, and mine has like all these knobs and yeah Yeah, we just yeah, I have one of the like old school ones And uh, what the one thing I'm really looking for though is and maybe years has this but I want to Uh, another I don't know what you call them, but like, you know the part that holds all the stuff Um, but uh, I want want to like I want another attachment for it that I could actually make a smaller amount You know, so like a smoothie kind of yeah, yeah one person because some Some blenders you can buy like just uh, you know the little piece Um, because I actually use it for sauces a lot and I it's often too big Yeah for the amount of sauce I'm making because I'm I'm not actually cooking in a restaurant, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly For my family of five. Yeah, I'm not I'm not serving a whole restaurant. Right exactly Um, but uh, yeah, I really like the Vitamix you ours. Luckily it was uh, kind of a hand me down from uh, my mother-in-law So uh, there's such a good quality because you can essentially just like pass it on to the next generation It's uh, yeah, it's been it's been great. I've been using it a lot more lately actually Yeah to the um, and actually to the point of of of documentation, right? Yeah, you're talking about um, that's that's something I think um With like fast moving software, that's something that like I think we can all use a lot of help on. Um, especially like I'm I'm I'm the type of person where like I need to see it work Mm-hmm First right in order to intelligently navigate the documentation right right because it's sometimes and I don't mean this disparagingly Sometimes I'll read documentation. I go. Oh, this was written by an engineer, right? Yeah, right because I have no idea what's going on, right? Um, yeah, that's why I really like those. Um, the things that uh, you know, there's a lot of people doing now but like, um, uh, Code something code. I'm blanking on what it is But it's uh, you know, it's where you have the like documentation on the left and then you can like try it on the right Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I think the catechota. Yeah. Yeah, there's catechota. I think instruct does it now Yeah, yeah But it's kind of at least for me. It gives me that same at least some of that same feel I I would also like an overview first. Yes, as you're kind of saying But the uh, you know kind of that interactive documentation. I think is much more useful to me Um, I don't know. It's it's interesting. I don't know if it's um The type of people who are attracted to working in tech, you know, as software engineers or admins or whatever. Yeah But like consistently I've found that most of them learn better by doing something hands on Um, and I don't know if it's like the particular brain type that is attracted to working in tech Is also the brain type that's attracted to you know, or learns by doing learns by doing And uh, you know, because you know, I I'm sure there are other ways of thinking, you know You know, I just don't think that way. Yeah, like, you know, so but it's interesting how consistent I found it to be Among tech people. Yeah, for sure. All right. Well, we're just about out of time. Uh, thanks so much christian. We really appreciate you No, thank you. Have fun. It was great. Hopefully you had a nice little tour of bellisle. Yeah, it was nice Yeah, it's pretty out there, right? I mean, it's a little gray today, but it was it was much prettier yesterday Um, but uh, yeah, thanks again for having us. Yeah, no, thank you