 Okay. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining this class on church and ministry administration. This is our second week of classes. Thank you for joining. Let's begin with prayer. Let's pray together. Could I please request somebody to unmute your mic and just lead us in prayer and then we will get started, please. Anyone? Love and Father, we just come into your presence of Father God. Thank you for this wonderful morning. Thank you for your presence of Father God, as you would say. We are mostly so new every morning. Thank you for the mercy and thank you for being gracious of Father God. And this time we gathered here to study a third lesson of Father God. You'll be with us of Father God. You open your ears to listen to what pastor teaches of Father God Jesus. Help us to be good leaders, to stand for good and integrity in the workplace of Father God. We praise you, Lord, in Jesus' name and in the spirit of Father God. Amen. Amen. Thank you. Thank you, Darren. All right, welcome everyone once again. I'm just going to quickly review what we did in our last class, just a quick review. And then we will get into some new things that we want to talk about. So last week, we, on the last class, we touched upon the objectives of good administration. You know, why are we doing a course like this? We talked about the fact that administration is a spiritual ministry. We shouldn't just see it as, okay, I'm doing some function in an organization. No, as far as we are concerned in the context of what we are talking about church and Christian ministry. You know, administration is also a God appointed ministry, something God has appointed people to do. Just as God appoints those who are pastors or teachers or prophets or so on. God has also appointed people as help, helps and administrations in the church. And so it is a spiritual ministry. We talked about the fact that there's an art science and spiritual gifting to this whole area that we're talking about. There are some, of course, we need to depend on people's innate traits and characteristics, though, that their natural inclinations and predestinations that people have, which is very good and we can develop that. There's also a science to this. There are things we can learn, which we will talk about. And then there's also the gifting that God empowers us in this whole process. We said that, you know, we will use the terms management and administration rather fluidly interchangeably in our course. We're not going to be hard and fast in this distinction because a lot of things will cover these both these areas that fall under management and administration. Let me quickly, you know, we gave this little picture to talk about, you know, what are we trying to achieve in terms of good administration and good management? We want to develop people. We want to establish systems. We want to fine tune processes and properly allocate resources. And we're doing all of that in a way that ensures alignment and efficiency and productivity towards the overall goals and vision of the local church or the ministry. So, you know, this is what we're trying to accomplish. And so in this whole area of administration, we, you know, we need skills that are what we have broadly, sorry, refer to as human skills. We also need conceptual skills, things that are organizational in nature, the technical skills, the execution skills. So we will kind of address these three areas as we go along. Today, we want to get started by talking about church trust and governance that this has to do with, you know, how you're setting up an entity, setting up the organization, whether it's a church or any other kind of ministry, and some practical things that need to be done in order to set up a church organization. Now, I realized that on the class, most of us are from within India. Dave is in Kathmandu, but in our e-learning portal, there will be students listening to this lecture who are from different parts of the world. So the language that is used in different parts of the world varies. You know, so in India, we usually call it a religious trust. In the United States, it's referred to as a non-fio, one C three non-profit organization. In other parts of the world, maybe they use different terminology. So the actual language that is used in different parts of the world may be different. But what we're talking about is creating that organization, the legal side, the entity that is the legally recognized entity for the church or the ministry. That's what we're talking about in this chapter. Now, some of us or maybe many of us, you know, may or may not actually be involved in forming this entity. Maybe you're already working for or you're going to be working for an already established entity. So you may or may not be involved in this, but it's good to know this anyway. Some of you may come to a place where you will have to start something. You may have to form the legal entity for your church or ministry. And then all of this information will be very important for you. Some of you may be working, but it's good to know the background, you know, what went into forming this organization that I am part of today. This is what went into it. And so it's good to know that so you know, you get a better, what we call the religious trust or the non-profit organization, this legal entity. Why is this important? And what are some biblical principles that, you know, serve as guiding principles for us? I want to mention four things, like four things. The first is from Romans 13. Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authorities, rebelling against what God has instituted. And those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers who know terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong, do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be condemned for the one in authority's God servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid for rulers. Do not be bare the sword for no reason. They are God servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on wrong doer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment, but also as a matter of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes. For the authorities are God servants who give their full time to govern you. Give to everyone what you owe them. If you owe taxes, pay taxes. If revenue, then revenue. If respect, then respect. If honor, then honor. Thank you. So in this passage, the Bible is teaching us, instructing us, believers, you know, be subject to the civic authorities, governing authorities. So from a Christian church or a Christian ministry perspective, we must keep this in mind. Look, sure, we are church, we are Christian ministers, but your local authority, your security. And you should give whatever respect you want to the local security. Give it. So that is one thing. As a church, we must search for the Christian ministry. We must walk in submission in compliance to the local regulations that are required in terms of the organization. Don't try to say I'm a church and I don't need to know. We must submit. So that's one guiding principle. Second guiding principle is in second Corinthians chapter six, hours three and four. Somebody could read that please for us. We keep no offense in anything that our ministry may not be blamed. But in all things, we command ourselves as minister of God in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distress. Yeah. Second guiding principle is this. Paul says in verse three, he's talking about ministry now. He says, we give no offense in anything so ministry will not be blamed. In all things, we command ourselves, we present ourselves as ministers of God. So second guiding principle, we want to conduct our organization, our ministry and such because we don't want the ministry to be blamed. So that's very important. That's another guiding principle. The ministry must not be blamed. Then third guiding principle, just a few pages. Second Corinthians chapter eight, verse 21. Somebody could read that for us please. Our purpose is to what is right, not only in the side of the Lord but also in the side of me. Thank you. So Paul in this chapter is dealing with, you know, how he is handling finances because he's actually taking up an offering from different churches to send it to Jerusalem. And in the process of doing that, he's telling the people, look, I am doing it. I want to make sure that I do it in such a way that I will be honorable or we will be honorable. Not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men. So that is third guiding principle. What about we do, you know, not only must we be right in a God site. You must also be right in people's eyes. That means there will be things people expect from us, you know, accounting reporting various things. We want to be right in their eyes also. So that's the third thing, right? Of course, first and foremost, we must be right in the eyes of God. But Paul says, I also want to do it in such a way that I will be right in the eyes of people, you know, do it in an honorable way. And lastly, as a matter of personal in Acts chapter 23, verse one, somebody could read that. Then Paul, looking honestly at the council said, men and brethren, I have lived in all the good conscience before God until this day. So it says, so here's the third thing, our personal level, keep our conscience clear. And the only way we can keep our conscience clear is if our hands are clean, clean, right, the way we are dealing with these things that our hands are clean. So four guiding principles, one, with respect to civic authorities, walk in submission to the way we organize everything, it should be blameless. Three, how we do things must be right, not only in God's eyes, but also in the eyes of people, both conscience must be clean, conscience must be clear. So if you keep this thing, these four simple guiding principles as, you know, how we are going to organize the church and the ministry, it will be very, you know, it's very important for us. And, you know, it'll keep us on the right track as we go through. Right. So let's get into the, the, now the rest of it is all practical things that I just want to share with us. You know, for forming the, the, or legal entity, the, the church or the ministry, usually there is an incubation period, you know, a time that it takes, meaning, you know, you're not going to go immediately as one person and go and form, you know, register an organization or create a legal entity. It's not going to happen, you know, at just one in the very beginning. So usually what you will do is, you will get the local church started or you will get the ministry started in an informal way. For instance, maybe, you know, you start the church, you know, five or six people are gathering in a house or in a room somewhere. And, you know, you're, you're praying together, or maybe you're doing certain ministry in a very informal way as a volunteer or something like that, you know, so we call that the incubation period. It means you're just, you're exploring the ground, you're getting to understand the people. You are, well, just a minute this, I just wanted to, I need to respond to, sorry, somebody's trying to call this thing. Okay. So, yeah. So, initially, you will, you will do some, just get the ministry going, right? You'll be, you know, you'll bring some co-people together and you'll try to understand whatever work you're doing. So that's called the incubation period. You will start. Nobody, it's very rare that somebody goes and forms a legal entity. You know, just from the beginning. Usually, you will begin to do some minutes and then you'll realize, you know, okay, hey, I really need to, I really want to go forward with this and I will start the ministry and I will form it. So, the moment you decide you're going to, you know, establish a church or establish a ministry and you've, you know, you've got a feel for things. It's important that as soon as possible, you form or you register the legal entity. So, like I mentioned, in India, we would call it a religious organization or a religious trust. In the US, it's called as a non-for non-profit organization and other parts of the world and they may use different terms. But you need to form that. You need to register it with the government legal entity. Now, why is that important? There are many, many reasons and I'm just looking at a few. One is it gives you credibility, right? So, with the people who are going to, you know, come to your church or be a part of the Christian organization. Many people are going to give their contributions and so on. If you are a registered entity, you are a legal church, legally incorporated church, then there's credibility to what is happening, right? Otherwise, if just somebody is running a church, you know, you're like, okay, what is this person? He's just doing something on his own and there is no organization to it. So, that's one thing, right? Secondly, a very important part is, once you register a legal entity, you can have things that are in the name of that organization, right? A very important example is the bank accounts. You know, once people are giving money and you're getting contributions, that money has to go somewhere. It has to go into a bank account. You can't put that money into a personal account. Now, this is a mistake many pastors make, you know, at the ground level, this is what happens that there are many pastors who, pastors or others, you know, Christian ministers who are doing ministry at the ground level, the grassroots level. But because they have not actually formed a legal entity, what happens? They collect offerings and it goes into their personal bank account. And then so, personal money, church money, everything is all mixed and church money is treated and handled as though it's their personal money. And it's a big problem, right? Also, if you want to take a place on lease, you know, you want to lease a space for the church or the office, so on. If the entity is registered, then you take it in the name of the entity, not in your personal name, right? So, it makes that distinction. And then there is also protection, you know, so when there's a legal entity, the liability of those involved is less. You know, the director's offices, so their personal resources, their personal money or personal property doesn't get held up if something goes wrong, right? Because it's a separate entity, their personal thing is held separate. So there is protection in terms of liabilities. Forth reason why you need to form that entity is because you can enlist professional services, you know, you can have a chartered accountant, you can have agents who are doing your taxation, who do various things, as they will come and work for an entity. So they're willing to provide services for, you know, registered organizations. So you can do that. Another benefit would be you can get some tax, you can get tax exempt status. So that's depending, of course, on the kind of organization. And it varies from country to country. In India, religious organizations cannot give tax benefit to its donors. But if the religious organization is registered, what we call as a 12A organization, then that organization doesn't have to pay tax on what comes in. The donors don't get any benefit, but the organization gets benefit. The organization doesn't pay tax if you're registered as a religious 12A organization. Now, if you're registered in India as an NGO or a non-government organization with the ATG registration, then the donors get the tax benefit, right? So there are various things there, but that you can take benefit of. And it varies from country to country. In the United States, 501C3 organizations, religious organizations, when they do register as such, then the donors get benefits and the organization also doesn't pay tax. So, you know, they get both ways, they get benefit. So things like that. And in some cases, if you're a registered non-profit organization, you can get some public or private grants, you know. So things that the government may have or private organizations may offer, you can apply for those things. So there are many benefits of forming a legal entity and it's good to register your organization as early as possible, right? Now, there are different kinds of organizations, so you need to decide what is best for you. If you're going to be a church, then of course you're going to be a religious organization. If you're going to be doing more of social work, then you would be doing something like a non-profit or a non-government organization. If you're going to be running a school, training center, that kind of a thing, you'll most likely register as an educational organization and each one has its benefits. You can study them and understand what you want to do. So what I've found just in my talking to many pastors and Christian leaders in Bangalore and other parts of India is many people don't form their organization. They're doing ministry. They're running a church. They are doing some sort of ministry. They're collecting, taking in donations, but they have not formed an organization and it becomes a very big problem. They get into trouble with the police. They can get into financial problems. Since at some point people in the congregation also begin to ask questions. It's like, hey, where is the money going? There is no accounting. Because everything is coming, it's going to the personal account and so it gets into lots of problems. So it's very important at an early stage, form that entity. So what are some things you need to kind of get together before you form the entity? One is to establish some amount of momentum for your work. Like I said, you get the work started, maybe a meeting in a house or at least you've got 10, 20 people coming to the church or some ministry that's happening. Establish momentum. Second is do your homework. Try to understand which kind of organization is best for the work you are doing, as we mentioned earlier. You need a core team. We will talk about that. The team of people are going to become your trustee, so your office bearers. You need some amount of money to pay for the incorporation, the registration. So you'll have to pay the child of the accountant or the lawyer. You'll have to pay at the registrar's office. You'll have to pay some money for doing the registration and there's some paperwork that needs to be done. So you need some amount of money. You find out how much it is and you can do it. I think last year we helped somebody to form an organization, register their ministry in here in Bangalore. They spent about 15,000 rupees and they got it registered. So that's kind of what it's done. Now 20 years ago when we registered, I think we spent 500 rupees. That's all I remember actually paying in that registrar's office. So times have changed but you can find out what you need to pay to register the organization. You will need the help of a lawyer or a tax expert or an accounting firm to help you put all the paperwork together. So you get their help, find somebody you can trust. And then you need to write up what we refer to as the Articles of Incorporation or in India we call it trust deed. In America they call it bylaws. So what you do and we will go through one sample of what these articles contain and what they should be there, especially for a church. So you need to write that document. Most of the time the agent that is the lawyer or the tax expert, the accounting firm who's helping you in corporate will provide these to you. They give you a sample and we've also given you a sample. So you can use that. You can modify it as you are going to form your organization. Now I will go a little forward and then I will pause and take time for discussions as well. So now very important when you're going to form that legal entity, whether it's, you know, what we call as a trust or a nonprofit organization or a social organization, whatever you're going to form. You need a core people who are going to whose names are going to be on the entity. So typically here in India you need a minimum of three people and the normal or the upper limit usually is about seven people. So three, five or seven. This would be an odd numbers. The reason we take odd numbers is because in case there has to be some sort of a decision to be made, you know, there has to be a deciding vote. So that's why we pick odd numbers three, five or seven. Usually, minimum is three. Typically it'll be maximum, you know, seven people will join together to form that entity. But how do you select these people? First of all, you need people who are aligned to the vision mission of the church or the ministry. You need people who are looking to serve and not looking for a position. Their heart must be right. They're saying, look, I'm here to serve the vision, serve the mission. I'm not just looking to be an office bearer. You know, have the force of a treasurer, secretary or, you know, president or vice president or whatever. You know, I'm here to serve. Doesn't matter my position. You also look for people that you have a good relationship and you can trust. And I remember, you know, from time to time we sent out pastors from Bangalore to go and start churches and other parts of the country. And, you know, and so we guide them through some of these things. And I remember, you know, one of the early, early pastors who we had sent out, he went to a certain part of our country. And he was there, I think just two or three months. And, you know, and of course we encouraged them, you know, you need to form this, your trust. I registered the church. He was going to start a church. So he went there. He did all the groundwork and he was ready to form the trust. And by the time, you know, somebody had, at that time, the total stranger came alongside this young man. He was a very young man at that time. He had just finished college and then he had worked with us for two years and then we sent him to start the church. So he was still very young. And so this, some person came along, said, hey, you know, I know you've come to start a church. Let us form the trust, put my name on it and I will be on it and help you. So he called me. He said, you know, so and so appeared from nowhere. He's saying he wants to form that trust. He wants to be on it. And then, you know, my, I didn't even have to think, you know, I just said, hey, never do that. It's very dangerous. You don't know this person. And for somebody to come in and ask to be put on, you know, the trust, it's a, that itself is a red flag. Because he's not coming to serve. He's coming to have a position and he hardly knows you and you're new there and he's new to you. And so it was red flag and I said, don't do that. Just keep distance, you know, you wait till you find a core group of people wait till things are well established and then form a trust. And thank God, you know, we took that approach and we kept it clear of any problems. So think about this. You know, if you have wrong people who are office bearers on that trust and there's conflict between them. It can damage the whole vision and the whole work that's happening. You know, if there are conflicts among the trustees or office bearers or members of the trust. That's why you need to choose people very carefully, you know, and, and, and go with that. So when we formed all people's church trust, we started the church service in February, March, April, April, I think. April or sometime within two or three months we formed the trust. We had four of us, myself, my wife Amy, and another couple from the church. Now, the person, Georgie, Sam, he was somebody I knew from my school days. So we had a good relationship for a long time. We trusted each other, we knew each other and our heart was the same to serve to, you know, to minister in the city. And Georgie of course was married. So he and his wife, so two couples, four people. Now we got, we formed the trust all people's church. This was in the year 2001, but we trusted them. Although, you know, we were the ones who had the vision and had come to start the church because we trusted them and we knew we had a good relationship. You know, we could invite them to be part of the office bearers and that's how we started. So it's so important to, you know, find the right people. So in order to form that legal entity, you need a document that describes what is the entity about what is it going to do and so on. So we call it a trust deed. Some places they will call it bylaws and some places they'll call it articles of incorporation, you know, different terminology in different parts of the world. It's okay. But I just want to highlight what are some of the things that should be contained in this document. So I've given you a sample trust deed. It looks something like this, the language may differ from country to country, different parts of the world. But the idea is, you know, is something like this, you know, you would say it's being formed on this date. The main person was responsible for it. Are you all with me? Let me just pause for a moment and see if there are any questions. Anyone is with me? Any questions up until this point? Okay. Okay, no questions. All right. Just, you know, feel free to speak at any point if you have any questions. Okay. So let's go through the sample. I just want to highlight, you know, some of the things that should be contained in that legal document. So this is a legal document, right? This is, if anything goes wrong, they will come back to this document and say, hey, this is what you were supposed to be doing. Okay. So this date and it will have the names of the people, right, who are forming the trust, the office bearers or what do you call this members or some piece and then they may call them as directors and so on, right? So you'll have one, two, three, four, you can go up to maybe seven, you know, so we just had four people, right? So they are referred to as the trustees. I mean, they are the members who are forming this legal entity. So one question, sorry. Yes, go ahead. Pastor, this is a standard format for all the organization or we can have it, Pastor, this trustee format that you're showing. Yeah. So this is, there is, let's say, this is like a sample, so which in many ways would be a typical format, but you know, the language will vary and you can tailor it to your organization. So I will show you some things that can be modified, you know, depending on what the organization is setting out to do, you can change it a bit, right? You can add or remove things, but this is like, I would say a sample, a template, a standard format, but then it would be, it would vary, it would be, you can modify it. Yeah. So you would say, you know, what is, what is this organization about? It is a public, it has public charitable objectives, right? And then, of course, you need some money to open it. It is an initial trust fund. So you can put in, you know, whatever, find a piece, thousand rupees, 10,000, whatever amount, you don't need that much. But you're saying, oh, look, we are starting out with this amount of money. So whatever amount is there you can start out with. You're saying this is the money you're starting out with to pursue these objectives, you know. So you'll define the name of your trust, whatever it, you know, the name you want. Now, the aims and objectives of the trust, this is very important. Now, if you are a religious organization, you need to state it clearly and explicitly so that there's no ambiguity, right? If you are an educational organization, you state it so, right? This sample, what I'm sharing with you is for a religious organization. So all the language and everything here is for a church or a religious organization. Similarly, there would be samples for an educational institution or for a social organization, non-government organization and things like that. But here are some things I want to highlight. In the aims and objectives of the trust, make sure you state things that are wide and broad. You don't have to be specific, meaning you don't have to narrow yourself. You know, so, for example, we wrote all this when we were only 10 people in the church or 15 people in the church. We said, you know, we are going to publish books and we are going to have schools. We're going to open Bible college or, you know, whatever you can think of, seminaries, institutes, you know, etc. We're going to make it as broad because, you know, you are starting, but your vision is big and you want to be able to do a lot of different things, right? So, for example, we even included facilities for relief and rehabilitation. You know, that means any kind of assistance we give to people in disaster and so on, we can do it. It's part of the objective of the trust. You are setting up the organization, trying to include all possible activity that in the future the organization may engage in, right? Because right at the moment, maybe all you have is one Sunday service. Okay. But hey, in the future, maybe you want to go and do some disaster relief. Maybe you want to go and help the poor people or the homeless people or the orphaned. You know, like we have mentioned you in point number three, right? Or maybe you may want to print books and videos and films or, you know, you may want to create. So you include that. At this moment, you're maybe only one service. Maybe only 10 people. That's okay. But, you know, in the future, you should be able to do this. So what I want to say is, as you're forming your entity, you state things that are big and broad. Otherwise, you will, if it's not there, then it becomes a debatable issue, you know, and people can question it. And even the government can hold your responsibility. Hey, you're doing something you didn't say you're going to do, you know, so it could come down to that if there are, you know, any kind of disputes. So it's better, as I'm repeating, you know, keep include in your objectives and in your bylaws or in your articles, things that as a church or as a ministry, you may get into in the future. If you don't do it, not a problem. But if it's not there and then you start doing it, then it becomes and if it's a questionable thing, then it could become a problem. So that's what we did, you know, we included all kinds of Christian literature. We can start out more churches to teach the Bible and notice the language also is very specific. It's the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is a Christian organization. So we are emphasizing that, you know, throughout that it is Christian literature. So again, nobody can come and say, okay, use the money for something that's not Christian. No, this is a religious organization. It is a Christian organization. So that is also very clear and very specific. So we say Christian ordinances, Christian leaders, we can start institutes or seminaries. So that time, you know, we were thinking maybe in the future, we'll start a Bible college or a seminary or a school. We could start in the future if you want to, right? At that time, we were small group, but we put it down, right? Colleges and schools, you know, and we could bring people for research. We could do workshops and conferences. We could, you know, do all kinds of campus and training and endeavors, you know. So just giving an example, we could start libraries or fellowships and our work can be conducted throughout the country, right? So we're not restricting to any single state in the country, but throughout the country. We can, you know, work with other organizations who have similar objectives. We can buy land or lease or rent things that, you know, we are allowed to do. We can have infrastructure that we can buy property and so on. And to make use, you know, proper use of the money and so on. So we can pay people for the work they are doing for, we can give donations to other similar organizations. We can open up branches anywhere in the country. We can, you know, provide accommodation for people. And then some general, you know, statement that anything else related to it, you know, again, recovering ourselves here by saying we can do things because in the future we don't know. There may be something that we need to do. And then we say what the money cannot be used, you know. We cannot use the money to invest in dividends or those kinds of things. So we, money cannot be used for that. So we will keep accurate accounts. We will, you know, operate in accordance to the income tax rules and so on. So all of these things are covered here. And we can give to other institutions here. So you can go through, you know, this details here. So the point I want to, you know, just emphasize is that in your articles or in your bylaws, keep it broad. Of course it has to be detailed, but make it clear it's a Christian organization. It's going to stand by Christian ordinances. And make it clear that you can do anything that is related to Christian ministry. So you keep it open and be very specific on as far as the money is concerned, the money cannot be used for, you know, trading and things like that, but the money can be used for purchasing property, all those kinds of things. So you can look at this sample that will be a guide. So you write this up. And then when you register this, when you form your entity, this document becomes a legal document for the basis of the organization. Just a few more things here in terms of setting up the organization. So once you have registered from that time, the clock starts ticking. That means you should follow the local regulations. This means from that, from the time you have been formed as a legal entity, you would have to file certain things with the government. So we have income tax, taxation side, and you have legal side, whatever needs to be filed for the government, if there are any changes and so on. And secondly, you know, the people who are involved should engage with each other. That means, you know, if you have four members or seven members, they should be involved in the oversight of the organization. So these are things that are required to be done. So you should keep them happening. It's an ongoing thing, right? Annually, you're filing or whatever period of time, you're filing these things and the people involved are having their conversations, discussions, meetings, and fulfilling these obligations, right? So you don't just form an organization and then don't do this, because, you know, I know there was one church that approached us for some guidance and they formed a trustee, I don't know, maybe 15 years ago, something like that. But they never really did anything, you know, it was just dormant. And now suddenly they want to revive it and it becomes a challenge, because, you know, things haven't been filed for 15 years. And the pastor is now, and early he wants to transition, he wants to hand over things. But, you know, these things have not in place. So it's very difficult to make the transition, right? So, you know, forming the trust is important, but you need to fulfill all these obligations. Now, another final thought I want to share is, at the right time, you form the trust, you also, it's good to have an, what we refer to as an advisory board. That means, you form your trust, you form your organization with three or four people. But then, you know, at some point, you need the input of more people who can help with specialized information to help guide the direction and the growth of the organization. So that's where you have, you bring in an advisory board. So the advisory board is not a legal entity. It's more of people who are there to provide input. So from a legal standpoint, it's the trustees who are responsible. And so what we have done here, and this is, I'm just suggesting this as a guidance. You don't have to follow it. But what we did was, for the trustees, we want people who are part of the pastoral team, right? So, we have people who are actively involved in the ministry who are the trustees. Why? Because they know what is happening in the ministry, in the church. So our trustees are also people who are part of the pastoral team. They are doing the work and they are focused on the spiritual life and the growth of the church. So the trustees, they hold a spiritual responsibility, moral responsibility towards the people and legal responsibility to the government. If anything goes wrong, trustees are going to be held responsible. Now, in the advisory board, and I will close with this. The advisory board is simply people who are advisory in capacity, right? And so what we did was, we said, okay, let us bring people who have expertise in areas where we need help, right? So one, and we identified these eight, eight areas, one is legal. Of course, you need somebody who understands, you know, the legal side of religious entities. So we have a person who gives us input on that. Then we need somebody on finance and accounting, organization development, Christian missions, or in terms of area of missions or social work, somebody in area of technology, somebody who's good in operations, somebody who's good in creative arts, that's important. And somebody who's looking out for current trends, urban life counseling. So we said, okay, now let's find people who are, who have these areas of expertise who can give us input, right? So we, the other thing we did is, we, we chose to kind of, you know, look at people like an age of 45. Those who are younger and those who are older than that. So we want to have a balance. We don't have people who are older than 45 who can give us mature in terms of, you know, organizational development or finance and accounting, so on, legal. And then we want to have some younger people so that they can give us, keep and help, keep input that has more current, you know, that's new, that's emerging. Right. So we had, we want to have maintained that kind of a balance in input. And also, another thing we did is we chose to have people who are from within APC, rather than bring people from outside. Now, you know, there are pros and cons that we can discuss, you know, what are the benefits of having people from outside versus having people from inside. The reason we thought of bringing people from inside is one is there are such people who are available. And second, they will be aligned to where we are going. So the input they give will be aligned to what the church is and where it is going. Whereas when you bring people from outside, they may not really be in touch with, hey, this is the culture and this is the direction of the church. They may bring in random inputs. Sometimes it is good. It is good to have those kinds of inputs that are just random out of the box. But a lot of time it may not be good because it may not be aligned to the culture of the church. It may not be aligned to the direction where we are going. We have to educate them and say, oh, look, no, no, no, this is the direction. This is the culture. And so there could be a mismatch. So we intentionally chose to engage people who are part of the church as volunteers here to be part of the advisory board. So this isn't a quick 40, 45 minute nutshell on how to set up a trust and what are some of the things you need to look out for as you form a legal entity to undergird the church or the ministry. This is the backbone. This is the skeletal system, if you will. And out of this, you can run the church or ministry. So I'm going to pause here and see if there are any questions we want to discuss. Anything you need clarification on, you're free to ask. First, a simple question on registration. So we started initially started as one location. So and years down the line we formed. So we started different locations like south, north, east and west. So does all the location comes under one roof as APC or we need to keep updating the governing body or we have to keep updating the registration. And also do we have any validity period for this registration or it's a lifetime? Yeah, good questions. So one, so first part is that we, APC as a legal entity can operate anywhere in India. So we can open any number of branches under this entity. So all our campuses in Bangalore, everything operate under this one legal entity. And also some of our outreach churches are operating under this one entity. For example, APC Mangalore operates under this entity APC Kohima. So we have branches in other cities. They all operate as though as part of this one entity, the staff over there are paid from the same payroll, everything, you know, they operate under part of APC. That's the first part. So we don't need to, you know, make any changes because we have in the articles we made it very broad. We can operate anywhere in India. We can start many churches, you know, so that allows us to do what we are doing. We can open any number of branches and so on. And the lifetime, yes, this is like the registration is for a lifetime as long as you want, you can keep it running. And then when the members decide to close it, then you have to formally go to the registrar and, you know, submit papers that you're closing the organization. But until we do that, the organization entity is considered existent and is required to be filing all the, you know, documents with the government. Now, what we have just a little side note what we have encouraged many of our outreach pastors to do is to form their own organization. So APC Kalyan is an own entity. They have formed APC Parampur. It's an own organization. I'm just trying to think who else has registered. APC Balota Bazaar is an own organization. So, you know, some places actually encourage everyone to do it. But there are challenges just from the, you know, locally speaking. So in cities where they haven't done it yet, they just operate as part of APC Bangalore. But now the cities, they have formed their own trust. They have their own people and they have their own accounts and they do their own individual work. They form their own legal entity. And then we support them. So APC Bangalore contributes to APC Kalyan. APC Bangalore contributes to APC Parampur and they operate by themselves. The reason we did it is because we want to give them, you know, a sense of ownership to their work. They shouldn't feel that, you know, APC Bangalore is controlling everything. No, this is your ministry. You run it as the way you want it. If you'd like to, you can call it APC by the city name or you can have your own name or whatever. So we wanted to give them that sense of ownership. That's why we encourage them to form their own organizations. Yes, Steven, you have a question? A similar line to what Daryl asked. You said, I mean, the trust will exist till the end. I mean, till how many years, you know, that we decided. But if in case, you know, there are no activities as such. So there's no tax, you know. Sorry, Pastor, there's a light. It's okay. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry, sorry about that. So what if there are no activities as such, you know, for a quite number of periods, say about two or three years, will it come to a closure? Will it automatically come to a closure or there should be some kind of activity, you know, in terms of filing the taxes? Yeah, so over here, the government doesn't automatically close the trust. So they don't do that. It is officially considered to be in existence. Even if they have not filed anything or reported anything, the entity is still valid. They don't close it. They don't shut it down. So the only problem is when you want to resume activities, then, okay, what happened to the last so many years? You know, you'll have to account for it to stay, you know, account for what happened. If there's no activity, you can just file as no returns or no income, no expense, that kind of filing. But those filings have to be done. You know, you can file retroactively, but say indicating at 0, 0, 0, 0, no income, no expense for the last three years. Now we want to restart our activities. It's fine. But to answer your question, the government will not close it. The entity still is in existence and, you know, we will, until it's, until it's formally closed by the signing of the trustees. Interesting. It makes this possible. Thank you. Okay. All right. Good. So we will take this forward in our next class. This is an introduction. Think about it. If you have any questions we can ask. Next class, we will talk about the organizational structure, you know, how to, how should you structure the organization? Okay. Let's close. We will close in brand dismiss, please. Anybody could just pray with us and dismiss us. Please. All right, Dave. Right. Who wants to pray? Dave. Oh, you know, right. All right. Anyone else? Go ahead. No, thank you, Lord. This wonderful time that you're given as a father, that we could come and learn her father and understand the organizational structure and the legal, the side of it a father. Father, I pray that as we go along, that we would understand in a, in a much better way. I pray a father, whatever that you have interested in our lives of father, that we would use it for your glory, for your kingdom, in a much better way, in a larger way of father. I just submit the entire class into your mighty hand. Pray in your holy precious name. Amen. Amen. Thank you, everyone. I'll see you again soon. Have a good afternoon. Thank you, pastor. God bless. Thank you, everyone.