 So here we're checking out the open-source smartphone project right here at Dinara Connect. And hi, so who are you? I'm Todd Weaver, I'm founder and CEO of Purism. So Purism right here, this is your website and you have a crowdfunding campaign and something was really cool that just saw, can you go back just a few seconds in the video? Because your open-source phone is even going to be able to dock to a larger screen? Yes, the convergence, yeah. And so the, yes, the intention, actually we got a video, we have a, not just a video of that, but also a, we have photos that we can show you. That's the convergence style. So it's Debian phone continuum, is it? Yeah, so PureOS, which is our operating system, is one in which is a Debian derivative with a Debian upstream first approach. So what we're doing is we're actually taking, forking Debian so that we can advance PureOS on our hardware and then patch everything upstream back into Debian. And so this is running in potentially in IMX-8, the latest NXP free-scale chipset or it could be in IMX-6, it depends if it's available by the time you ship, right? Yes, correct. And you have a lot of support already on crowdfunding. Yes, correct. This is your own website for crowdfunding? Yeah, so what we did, we've actually done crowdfunding on a number of different websites and from crowd supply to Indiegogo. And in the end, we realized that we were driving all of the traffic. And so now that we've built up brand credibility and product shipment, then we decided we were hosted ourselves because we can then end up leveraging that, the additional revenue from the campaign and actually provide that to the software developers who are going to improve it. Yeah, the 4% instead of giving it to the Indiegogo, the Kickstarter company. And it can be anywhere from 4% sounds like you've negotiated better than I have. So it's usually 5% to anywhere up to actually around 13% depending on which levers you kind of choose within the campaign themselves. And so since we are driving all the traffic and have the credibility behind it, then we are hosting it ourselves. And we've already crossed over the 50% mark, which is a great milestone to show that... Is it two months' campaign? Two months' campaign and so we have 27 days left and we have to raise another $734,000. And each phone, if I scroll down right here, can you scroll down a little bit and show the... Each phone, is it $599? Yes, so the phone itself is, there's a dev kit for $299 and then there's a phone for $599 and that's going to be shipping in... So there's more than 1,000 people already ordering that one? Correct, yeah. And you have the background of doing stuff that's real, right? Because we are looking at, what is this laptop? So the laptop itself is a, this is a Libram 13 version 1. And so this one actually is one in which we had a drop-down RJ45 jack. This is the version 1 that I've been using for about three years. So the wear and tear on this is real and it's a fantastic machine. So three years you've been doing this for a while now? So we started in 2014 and then 2015 we built product and started shipping it. 2016 we shipped all the product that had been pre-ordered. And then in 2017 we now have inventory and so we're managing inventory to ship from inventory. And 2018 is going to be the year that we start developing on the phone and getting into enterprise sales more and more. So this is an Intel laptop? Correct. But it has high specs? So yeah, this is actually, this version, the one we're shipping now I should say, is an Intel 6th generation, so it's Skylake. We also, because the game of freedom and the game of security and the game of privacy is always a game of depth, how deep do you go on your credibility scale? So for us we go deeper than anybody else in that we run completely free software in all of the software that runs on the machine in Pure OS. And then we also go level deeper than that than the kernel doesn't have any binaries to drive the machine. And then the boot loader of course is free software. And then we also are running core boot on these machines. And then we have a neutralized management engine, which is a layer lower. And we're working towards complete management engine disablement. And at that point then we'll have high end new hardware that has completely free software that would qualify for the very strict standard of free software foundation or specs or freedom certification. What is the management engine? So the management engine is a separate CPU than the main CPU that runs Intel signed code that's designed, initially started as a business requirement to say that large businesses wanted to be able to remotely access a computer even when out of band or when the power is off. So they can actually connect up through Intel networking, Intel management engine on a CPUs that have Intel V Pro and be able to get lower than the BIOS level to flash a new BIOS version or install a new operating system, et cetera. And then that sort of took off and is now in all Intel based CPUs since 2008. Since 2008. Correct. All CPUs have V Pro. All CPUs have management engine binary. They don't all have V Pro. So there's actually three things to do is called Intel AMT. And this is a lot of people get this confused. So I'll try to summarize it in this video. There's three things to get Intel AMT. You need a CPU that has V Pro, which we don't have. We use CPUs that do not have V Pro. The second thing you need is you need Intel networking, which we also don't have. We use Qualcomm, Atheros, and Broadcom for the networking. So we've removed that piece. The third thing you need is a management engine binary. The management engine binary is a requirement for existing BIOS vendors as well as even core boot. So what we do is we disable or not sorry, not disable. We neutralize the management engine or working towards disablement of the management engine where it doesn't even run at all. So of those threats, we already have removed two of them. And the third one we've neutralized and are working towards complete removal of that management engine. But Intel is just down there by down the street. Can you go and ask them to just disable it or something? So we have actually put out a petition and we have an account manager which we've submitted that petition towards. And we communicate with them regularly. One of the areas that actually is really great is that we are in removing the management engine is that we're reverse engineering it to disable it. We're not actually trying to release the reverse engineer and find code or release the source code to actually have a functioning management engine. We don't want it at all. So Intel is aware that this is a concern from a security standpoint. And may in future versions offer a ME list, which is their term, an ME list design, but right now we don't see that. So we're going to continue to advance towards reverse engineering to disable that management engine CPU. Because it was a funny kind of story in last month or two recently where the whole V Pro stuff was kind of like cracked and hacked. Correct. All of the people are in trouble. Yes, true. Intel guys that were behind V Pro all fired or what? I doubt it. So the... They're promoted. Yeah, sorry. That's funny. So they know actually what the process was is that there was an exploit against V Pro, which of course is a fairly simple exploit, a web-based authentication exploit against Intel AMT. So if somebody was running those three things I mentioned, then they were exploitable against that crack. Of course, our machines were not exploitable because we don't have the V Pro and we don't have Intel networking. And we also have a neutralized management engine. But that's just a highlight that there's more exploits to come. This is a binary, even though it's signed by Intel, there's already known issues with how it was signed. And there's bugs. So this human error will inevitably show through on the exploits. And we know that there's even going to be some discussions in some upcoming Black Hat conferences about some more of these Intel management engine exploits. That sounds like a lot of... No, I'm just joking a little bit, but a lot of challenges with the Intel world. So how about you take this beautiful laptop and make it into an ARM laptop? Are you considering this? So we are, actually. From Debconc, we've talked to a number of ARM engineers about seeing if there's enough demand to fabricate an ARM64-based laptop. And because Purism can manufacture in smaller quantities a lot because of the supply demand story within China, allows us to have a higher cost of unit, but also be able to target some NRE, higher NRE fees, to fabricate in smaller quantities. So that allows us to actually have a story in which we can potentially create a brand new type of product, specifically an ARM64 in a small form factor laptop actually in this case would be a completely free hardware design down to the schematic level. So we've been discussing with a number of ARM developers, designers. Some of the guys are on here. Exactly, at this conference is a key area to gather up those individuals. Because I think these guys over here and me and lots of people are, I've been waiting for, maybe you will be the one to finally make it happen. Crack the issue for something. Yeah, it's possible. Here suddenly, maybe you have the awesome ARM laptop. Yeah. Running Debian on ARM. Yes, right. So again, the issue is about MOQ and the way that we work is we work in a pretty low risk business model where what we would do is, if we see that there's enough demand just from talking with people in the community and then we have the ability to fabricate something in the quantity that we would target then what we do is we basically put out a crowdfunding to say is there enough people that are interested and if there are enough people and that number might be 500, it might be 1,000 which is not such a significant number like it's a non-starter, it just means that we have to show that there's enough demand that will pre-order. And then in that case, pre-ordering in a dollar amount that we know we'd be able to fabricate and still be able to deliver on the product then we bring that to market. So that's something that we're in discussion with with a couple of key individuals and if the numbers work out then we'll probably be able to bring a crowdfunding product or project to market and then hopefully within maybe six months after that be able to see an ARM64 or a laptop. So is it public? How many you sold of the Intel laptop so far? No, it's not, but we measure it in the thousands, we don't measure it in the 10,000s yet, right? So we're, and we've been doubling each year so it's been fantastic growth. More and more people are getting, being made aware that security is a game of depth and you need to be able to go deep all the way into the hardware and purisms popping up more and more for the hardware vendor that they would want to buy from. And that goes from consumers, right, individual users, customers all the way to enterprise sales. And so there's this consideration that you have if you can scroll up to the top again where you're talking about the new, the smartphone, it looks pretty awesome. So, but you can just use an off-the-shelf Qualcomm or MediaTek smartphone. Well, we evaluated pretty much everything that's out there from ODM designs to what we can source currently through existing suppliers like BYD. And what we came out with was that in the end all Qualcomm chips are married the CPU to the baseband. And that from a security story is a disaster. So what we needed to do is evaluate what CPU options we would have that would allow us to run completely free software and have a really strong security story. That fell down to basically all the way down to IMX-6 or potentially IMX-8 because we have the ability to separate CPU from the baseband and also because the GNU support, Linux kernel support is really good. As well as there's already a reverse engineered GPU, the atnative driver that we can also leverage. So then there would be lots of stuff coming through the IMX area and hopefully IMX-8, which is a pretty cool new chipset that they have over there. Hopefully they'll have it available by the time you want to ship this. Yeah, so for us, we actually put a little over a year for delivery of the phone. Most of that time is software development because this is not Android. And by targeting specifically not Android, allows us to have a great future where we can have free software running on a phone as opposed to the foe free software that Android brings us with all the binaries. So we can actually have something that respects digital rights, which is something that I am a strong believer in. So IMX-6, by having about a little over a year to do the software development, also allows us to then delay our hardware selection where we put the stake in the ground probably six months from now when we actually get to pick the hardware that we're going to be using. So that allows us to then see does IMX-8 is it going to make it into production on time? Is there going to see delays? What are the specific GPU that they're going to be using, et cetera. And then we can, so we can test that out in six months from now where then we'll be putting the stake in the ground with regard to the hardware, IMX-6 or IMX-8. And we're obviously hoping for IMX-8. Can we go down a little bit on your page here? So you're talking about so GNU, Linux operating system. What's this UI? You just had a, you just showed a UI in your picture there but how are you going to make a UI that looks cool that's not Android? So a couple of things. We have a bunch of quotes with regard to GNOME and KDE. So this is actually a KDE screen running the Plasma desktop environment. And so we have a partnership with KDE and we also have a partnership with GNOME. This is an important thing is that this isn't like desktop wars of 20 years ago where it was one versus the other. We're actually creating a reference platform and are going to support both communities. So that way we can actually see KDE on a phone as well as GNOME on a phone depending on what the user actually would like to see. So the desktop environment and each of those communities are in different states and also where they're looking to go is slightly different paths. So right now on the Libram laptops, we're shipping GNOME shell. So advancing GNOME towards a phone is also a good idea. So we have a unification of pure OS but KDE Plasma is currently has a functioning finger first interface that we don't see in the GNOME mobile world which we're actually going to be investing into advance. So we are going to be supporting and advancing KDE and seeing where that goes and then also supporting and advancing GNOME to see which one's going to be the best choice for us to ship by default but knowing that a user can also switch to the other is really important for the user's control. And a user with their phone will be able to do whatever they want? Well, yes, a user who has an understanding of what Freesoper is or can run their own distribution. So of course the audience that we're talking to here is probably going to be able to understand that yes, they'll be able to run their own GNU Linux distribution, run free software, they can end up writing applications for it as well but we're not just focusing on free software users, right? We're actually expanding to people who are concerned about security or privacy or the Google surveillance machine or the walled gardens of Apple. And so we want to break away from that and say that this is actually a machine that can respect your digital rights. And what that means at the core is it has to run free software. If someone says that they have a privacy-focused phone and you ask the question of what's the operating system and they say it's Android-based, then to me that's just an immediate dismissal that it doesn't actually protect your privacy or in any ways can be secure. So you have to have the free software story. Everything builds off of that. And so being able to have a convenient phone that an average user would be able to make a phone call and use that respects your digital rights is our end goal. Is then we can end up having a platform and then more app developers can develop apps and have a platform that will be able to have average users start using similar to what we see in the desktop space and laptop space in the free software world. And your pure OS can have some kind of app that just runs Android apps too, right? So there is a number of areas that being able to run Android apps in isolation or in a virtual machine that are out there already. We haven't looked at testing those or including those yet, but that is something that we're evaluating. The possibility would be then within the phone if you have a requirement for an app similar to if you have a requirement to run a Windows application on our laptop, you can run boxes and then run Windows and that gets our foot in the door with that user base. The same type of thing can apply in the phone space if there's a requirement for an Android app then it is at least possible, technically possible, we just have to advance to making that a little bit easier for the user to be able to do. So you're basically carrying around your desktop in the pocket and then you can dock it, you have a picture showing how it looks when you do the convergence mode and are you planning to do potentially DisplayPort or HDMI through a USB Type-C and alt mode? You just described it, yes. Type-C USB from the phone potentially direct to the monitor otherwise through a hub and be able to then have a docking device as well and then be able to support the phone to touch only interface on the phone and then have a full desktop environment on your larger screen and keyboard mouse. Cool, awesome. So how many people in your company, where are you based? We have about 18 full-time employees. Our manufacturing, we have about 15 contract assembly partners and then we do our assembly in South San Francisco but our staff are worldwide. As a matter of fact, I think that we have about three, maybe four people in the US, everybody else is international. And the three, four, not even in the same office. There's no office. So we have our assembly office but that's all of our assembly contractors. And so when we bring in machines, then we do all of our testing, OS loading, configuration, shipping all from South San Francisco. You in San Francisco? Yes, and so I'm here, our finance person's here and we have an ops person here as well. So you're like kind of like a little Linaro, right? Yes. Because Linaro has all these guys, they're distributed all over the world. They live in all the like 100 different countries or something. Yes. And so you're doing something like that? Yeah, so exactly. So for me, when somebody opens up their laptop and then connects to VPN and connects to our services, at that point then they can be working for us. So it doesn't matter to me, geolocation, we're probably arguably the most progressive hire ever because we will hire based off of a user's eagerness and understanding of free software. And so we don't care about anything else, right? Geolocation, age, gender, it does not matter to us. What we want is people that are eager to change the future for the better and that's the people that we hire no matter where they are. Usually that's a cool, what's called a slogan to have in the Silicon Valley where you want to make the future better and stuff like that. Do you have a long background here in the Silicon Valley? What have you been doing before? So I don't have a long history in Silicon Valley. Actually, I even live two hours outside of Silicon Valley to sort of avoid Silicon Valley. But so my history is really around disrupting giants. So before starting Purism, I actually launched the first online cable company with the business model that we were going to be sued by the largest media companies in the world. And but we were paying royalties and believe we were on the right side of the law, they just had more money and stronger lawyers. So that was called IV, it's called IVI. And that was about 2007 timeframe. And so we lasted about nine months in the court system and then we're shut down. And yeah, yeah, exactly. We had 72 television stations that you could watch from an application that you could download. And it was, yeah, it's, boy. I need an entire another video for that topic. So it's not allowed in short, is that the regulatory system and the monopolies that the cable companies currently have. So it's a government provided monopoly into a specific location. And what they have is then they negotiate for the rights to redistribute the channels. And so it really is, it's just, giant corporations strangle holding on what the users actually want. And users, of course, what they want in the television market is they want transparency and freedom of choice. Cutting the cable. Yeah, right. But cutting the cable allows you, correct. And doing that, so what IV was doing, which is a completely another separate video, but in short, what I was doing was I was disrupting the cable industry saying, users should be able to choose their individual channels and pay for just those channels, which allowed for then individuals to say, I want to vote with my wallet. Right now in the cable market, you can't vote with your wallet. You pick tiers, you can't pick channels. So by definition, you're paying for a lot more channels than you actually want. And the end result is everybody wants 10 channels. Everybody wants just a different 10 channels. So by offering transparency and individual channel selection, allowed for us to actually have people vote with their wallet and then create good content. That just doesn't happen. So the entire U.S. television market in 2007, I explained that it's going to be a decade before we can actually get good live streaming television. And here we are, 2017, where it's starting to happen. One thing that I think is really strange, and I'm European, you know, when I come to the U.S. and I try to watch TV, it's very hard because basically it's advertising all the time. How can people stand this? Well, you know, a lot of the youth can't. So the trends are the youth have cut the cord. Cutting the cord to me is already a thing of the past. If you watch a TV show, it's like interrupted 10 times. Yeah, so they don't... How's that okay? So it's not. And that's also why the market is showing that it's not okay, right? So that's why a lot of the youth are streaming videos online. They're almost consuming all of their entertainment online. And that same type of story applies to actually what we're trying to do with the phone even by having an IP-first phone, is that phone providers now are, they're like cutting the cord from the phone provider is like the next frontier of cord cutting. We'll be then, we can actually say, you know what, I want you to be a dumb pipe. So my approach to all ISPs is they should be dumb pipes that just give us internet. They can still make money being dumb. That's right, you can make your money off of providing the data connection, and then all services should be over the top. And so that's what I was an over-the-top video provider and now we're going to be an over-the-top IP-first phone provider. And so being able to then say that the user can make an IP call and control the encryption stack and control the software to be able to make that call is actually important. And so this is where my belief is the service providers should be dumb pipes across the board. So I've heard about some kind of like potential ways to do electronic SIMs and you would arrive in the country and you can just choose your provider. You don't even need a SIM card. Are you going to do some, that's too much. It's too much for initially when we launch, but we're laying the foundation for that exact thing to be able to happen. So with software development, that would be able to happen. So the hardware would be able to support it. So what that means is having the ability to support multi, you know, technology stacks and multi-communication. So then you can walk in and then be able to switch it. The switching is actually in that case the software. And then be able to do all sorts, like then sort of the sky's the limit, right, where we can actually do, you know, Wi-Fi only. So you can have completely no carrier and then you can actually tether to other people and have complete mesh networks. Right, all of that stuff becomes where being able to have hardware and then a software freedom to be able to do that then we can really start to see an awful lot of innovations. Like 10 years ago, I think Larry Page was doing a speech in Washington saying, we want white spaces, but nothing happened. Like there's still no white spaces. I think that would be a cool thing. If people could have a little white space rotor at home, share with like a kilometer, I count a kilometer, sorry. Kilometer around their home and then you would have a thousand people and the whole city is covered with free bandwidth. That would be cool, right? Absolutely. You need another kind of modem in that phone. Well, so there's actually a few options that can solve that, but we need to, you know, we need to increment towards there. So there are existing frequencies that are in the public domain. They're just smaller frequencies, right? So not as far distances. But that those larger high powered ones are available and if I could pick, I would say disband all, all broadcast television, which is, they should just go away, especially because they sued me. So they should all just go away. And then what we should do is use that baseband, that frequency for open internet connection. So then you can just simply connect and be able to communicate online everywhere. But the baseband you might have in the phone might be able to support at 700 megahertz baseband that might be the old digital TV? Well, absolutely. That's just the hardware selection. And so being able to have a chip that actually supports that is, if we started to see that that frequency was going to become available, then we can start advancing towards that. Then we start seeing some really amazing things. So early on, we can start where, yes, maybe we start having routers and there's a lot of movements towards this where you have routers that actually have an open section. So if you pass by, you can connect up, right? Open net and a few other things. Fun, there was something called fun ones. Oh, maybe, okay. And so that type of thing is helpful. But then by actually having a phone that allows auto tethering and a few other pieces, then we can start creating these mesh networks. And that would also be helpful in emergency situations where we see cell towers dropping, but we can have a strong network connection somewhere and then be able to Bluetooth or Wi-Fi connect a mesh network around. So there's a lot of really amazing things that we can happen, but all of them depend on, at the root of it, it needs to be hardware that can run free software so that we can actually advance those costs. So when I look at your open source laptop right here, is this the most open source laptop project in the world? No, if you have pre-2008 hardware, then you actually can get the last remaining bit that we don't have freed yet, which is to have core boot without binaries. So post-2008, this is the most secure and free software laptop available because we actually have core boot and a neutralized management engine. But the other thing is that by supporting us on the hardware side, then we are investing in those software developers to continue to dig deeper. And so we're going to be coming out with more and more announcements about digging that layer lower, getting towards that disablement of the management engine, and then starting to work on other areas that are equally as important from a free software story. When you talk about the Skylake, do you have core i7? Do you have the eighth generation? Is there any chance to be getting that kind of stuff? So right now, this is the, in the Libram 13 and Libram 15, we have Intel i7 sixth generation, which is Skylake. Seventh generation we brought in to start evaluating. And so we're going to continue to stay, not bleeding edge, but current on the hardware. Part of that is because we of course have to do software development effort to making sure core boot works properly and is actually productized for that specific hardware. So we'll be staying, if you're buying from us, you'll always be in the current hardware realm, but not bleeding edge. And doing something like that is not necessarily that easy. And maybe there could be some issues sometimes and how do you manage all the potential issues that might happen? So if you look back at our history, you'll see that we've managed through a lot of those issues, primarily around 4K screens, trying to get 4K screens in our devices what would have been the leading edge of that trend. But the suppliers who were buying 4K screens were buying them all up, so I couldn't source them. And then that saw delays in our supply chain. So what we've, and a lot of that's just learning the process of what we can and cannot do in the supply chain. So we know what we source, we know what we can manufacture, we know what we can modify, and we advance those causes. And then the areas that we want to move even deeper and deeper are that we can start negotiating with the supply chain. So we've learned a lot off a lot. So as it relates to your question about Skylake versus let's say Cabylake, is that we have Cabylake in-house that we're testing right now. Most of that testing that we've shown is that it works across the board at the higher levels, but we need to get Corbuth running and then we also have to test the management engine version against that to see if it can get us to the same state. So how we manage that is by having developers on staff that are testing out that hardware to make sure it meets the strictness that we have. But then the after sale support kind of potential, just if somebody drops a phone and they want to repair what do they do? So in the case of the phone which will actually be the same as where we're at with the laptops now, which is that we have online, so we have online support and then we have warranty repair. So it'll be a one year parts and labor warranty. Currently it has to ship either to South San Francisco or to Germany where we have a German reseller and we're looking to expand those locations. And so that's the warranty repair process for any of the devices that we have. Potentially you could have some extra warranty kind of things, people can pay extra and they can have like super warranty stuff. Yes, we have a three year extended warranty option that people can certainly look into. And so this is an area that initially we know and we're not trying to grow too fast because unless they try and create a bunch of retail stores, that would be a nightmare. So what we're looking to do is grow organically and we have a long term goal that we're trying to meet which really at the end of the day comes down to protecting and having secure devices around digital rights and making sure that digital rights can actually mirror physical rights and that is where if in the future a kid ends up using our phone because their parents wanted them to use a phone that was secure and protected them then I feel like we're actually making an impact and a change in the future of computing. And if this really works out super successful, super great, you could have a lower cost versions maybe later. Yeah, absolutely. So the thing is that there are volume discounts which we are not taking advantage of. So right now we pay more per unit because we're doing smaller quantities and we have an NRE fee, we're trying to make change in the hardware level. But as we start to see our growth then we can start purchasing in volume and then obviously start to see volume discounts. We've already seen one volume discount which we've been able to lower our prices a few hundred dollars per unit based off of that alone. And then we can see that start to, you know hopefully kind of have a snowball effect where it'll grow and grow and grow and we can start having less expensive product. And this is going to be a five inch display? The phone is going to be a five inch display, correct. And if people want six inch they can hope for the future that can be different versions, right? Right, and so we're actually toying with somewhere within the five inch range it might actually be five and a half. It could be pushing towards a six inch size. We've actually evaluated a series of them. The existing phone case that we were looking at plus the battery. We didn't look at anything that was in the six inch range but that's... With all the new modern displays they do kind of like bezel less, you know. Maybe you can fit more screen with less, it depends. Yeah, right, no, that's right. It does depend. So right now what we knew we'd be able to do was a five inch. Anything above that, there's some benefit in the size of that in the sense that we can actually have more real estate space to put in IMX6 or eight motherboard and peripherals and have a larger battery. But on the other hand it also comes down to screen, screen resolution, battery life which are also some considerations with the larger screens. Are you planning to take people's biometrics and like scan fingers and eyes and faces and all these kinds of things? No, for a number of reasons. I'm not against specifically biometrics as one measurement of authentication but I am against it as a single measurement of authentication. So and this really comes down to actually precedent in the United States Supreme Court that shows that biometrics you actually are not protected. So if your device needed to be compromised or taken or gathered up against your will that biometrics is not enforceable. So what that means is that your fingerprint or face can be used to unlock your device. The Supreme Court has shown that having a code or something that's in your brain like a passphrase or a simple code is something that you can protect against. Something you can also change. So you can't change your face and you can't change your fingerprint but you can change your passphrase and you can change your passcode. So in that case our devices are going to be defending the privacy and digital rights of users. In that sense we will always have some method that is the most protective of that user's device. So in that case it would be a passcode or passphrase initially. If the user wants an additional let's say fingerprint or some biometric as a second layer then that's something we can consider but certainly not going to be the default authentication. So potentially there could be a fingerprint reader on the back maybe. There could be but that is really going to come from user feedback. So initially we have no, I mean actually I don't even think a single person has for any type of biometric in our hardware campaign to date. So the only way we would be looking at doing that is if an enterprise said they wanted that as a second form of authentication and then a user can decide do they want that or not. And then I feel like that's actually good having the user choice, right? Because I actually do feel as though a fairly strong security story would be having one layer of biometric and a second authentication as user control. So then that would be equivalent to, in the worst case, the single layer of passcode or passphrase. So I'm thinking if there's a Swiss bank right now with 10,000 customers that want to make, like they should just contact you, say what they want and you could do it. Yeah, correct. There was some kind of enterprise that would like to have security that don't trust the big Google or the big Apple and that have some kind of, let's say could be banks or anything that have some kind of important requirement for security. Absolutely, so we actually oddly enough are in discussions about custom enterprise modifications. And so, and what's great is that for us, they need to be aligned with our belief system. But our belief system is the core to any type of really strong security story. So what the Free Software Foundation stands for ends up being the only credible security story in the end. And so what's great about that is that if there was somebody who was listening to this video and they said, we have an MLQ that's greater than a thousand and what we want is this customized piece, then we're probably the best option for them to actually see that come to fruition. As it relates to the phone, is that right now in the phone campaign we are accepting information from users and what they'd like to see because we're in the design phase and then we've also left enough time that the software development piece, when that's underway, we are going to then finally make the final hardware decisions on what we're going to fabricate. So now is a good time to voice with, by backing the campaign and letting us know what you'd like to see. Cool, that's really awesome. So looking forward to a pure future, right? That's right, yeah, right. There's no coincidence in naming the company Purism which obviously is towards a purist approach to software, to software freedom, having it where we have an ethical future as it relates to computing.