 Good morning and welcome to Vermont House Judiciary Committee. It is Wednesday, April 28, and we are going to be considering H18, which is an act relating to sexual exploitation of children. We just passed the House and with the leadership of Representative Burdett, and the Senate has added a, was originally a Senate bill added to this bill and so that's what we'll be spending most of our time on this morning. And the Senate bill is relating to good Samaritan protection for those involved in human trafficking. And this is a bill that actually passed the House, passed out of our committee last year, but the Senate did not have the time to address it and so I'm very glad to to see it back here. This committee has worked on good Samaritan laws over the years, and recognition of their importance for public safety and public health. And so with with that I'm going to turn it to Nina Colburn if you did wanted to add a few words before we hear from our witnesses. Thank you. Sure. Excuse me. My throat is a little groggy this morning. This bill as Mac as representative grad said chair grad said we worked on a version of this with very similar might have even been the exact same language that passed in the last biennium but didn't make it across the finish line in the Senate, partly due to our adjournment. And really what the bill, I think at some point what we will have Michelle do a actual walkthrough right so what the bill does roughly is it says that anyone who is victim or witness crime. That arose from the person's involvement in any here in the bill, because our statute uses this language uses mirroring language involvement and prostitution or human trafficking shall not be cited or rested or prosecuted. And then there's a list of crimes that that immunity provision would apply to, and they are prostitution prohibited conduct and kind of lower level drug possession charges. So that's really what the bill does there's some clarifying language around how the immunity provision works that I think it's our best left to Michelle to really give us the ins and outs of when when she's available, but it's really about creating provisions for folks engaged in sex work or who are subject to trafficking and just creating really pathways for for safety for folks and I think we're going to hear from some really good witnesses about why that's so important. But I'm, I'll just say, as an editorial comment them really thrilled that this language is back in front of us and can't wait to hear from our witnesses and hope we can, we can move this forward once once again in our committee. Thank you. Thank you so much. Appreciate that context and with that, like to please welcome Henry Eschar, if I hope I'm saying your name correctly. Yeah, yeah. Morning, my name's my name's Henry banks. I am. Yeah. No worries. I think it's just a formality. My settings. No worries. So, first off, I wanted to say good morning to all of you and thank you for the opportunity to be part of this conversation. To me, and my community. So it means a lot that you're allowing the floor space. Thank you very much. Thanks. Sorry, excuse me, you're to me you're sounding a little crackly and I don't know if other people. Oh, my wife might be having issues that's been a thing lately. Am I clearing up at all right now. You are you are and it's really if it's, if it's better to have your, your camera off. You're welcome to try it that way to want to make sure we, we hear your testimony. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. If you, if you want to feel free to just flag me somehow if, if my reception gets money out for this testimony and happy to reiterate anything that's helpful. Yeah. Okay. Is this any better. So far keep keep going and we'll, because sometimes it starts okay and then so keep going and we'll let you know. Okay. My name is Henry banks. I'm the director and co-director of the Ishtar collective of Vermont based nonprofit organization aimed at supporting the LGBTQ community. I want to thank you again for having me here and for taking up this legislation. The discussion is important to me personally to the folks that I've known over the years and the Vermonters that I work with now. We do see this legislation as acknowledgement of our collective humanity and recognition by all of you. The value of our lives. The importance of protecting health and safety of all Vermonters, including erotic laborers. Thank you. Oh, actually, huh. I wonder, do you want to try maybe signing off and coming back. I don't know if that's anybody else has ideas, but that might help. I could try connecting over my phone alternatively. I'm on my laptop right now I could use data instead of Wi-Fi. I'm using a mic. Like a separate microphone. Your headset. No, I'm not. Okay. Okay. I apologize for. No, no, no worries. This happens. This happens a lot. No worries. Okay. I appreciate your patience everyone. I appreciate your patience. I usually, if you call in that usually can provide better sound. Like you suggested on your phone, if you called in. Is that better? So far. Okay. Okay. Let's try this again from the top, shall we? I really appreciate your patience everyone. I know working remotely has come with its difficulties. So I want to thank you for being flexible. So for whatever you missed, again, I'm the co founder of the extra collective. We're a nonprofit organization founded in central Vermont, aiming towards the protection of members of the LGBTQ community erotic labor survivors of domestic violence and human trafficking. We are an anti trafficking organization, which has a lot to do with why we want to push the support of this legislation. So I really appreciate you inviting me being inviting me to be a part of it. I'd like to start with giving you all a little bit of background about myself and why I do the work I do. So I'm a second generation sex worker. I've been active for almost 10 years. A lot of my mother's experience in the adult industry serves as kind of a constant driving factor in the advocacy I do. She worked in a different generation and a different point of history. She has a sense and a lot of language and representation accessible to her, which had a really negative impact on her, her mental health and her general well being. And having lived to witness that it's kind of inspired me to want to change that environment in hopes that we as a community can kind of come together and ensure the protection of all workers across the spectrum. I've been a part of this bill and the advocacy I do is a vision for that collective protection. We use the word community in Vermont a lot. And for many, what that looks like is friendly greetings and shoveled driveways, but for people like my mother and my friends and I. I think about what it looks like to look out for each other when things get hard. What can we turn to for advocacy when things get dangerous. And that's kind of the driving point of why I'm here today. Who do we trust to ask for help. We do live in a country where consenting sex workers, partners of sex workers, and even their hired security could face trafficking or prostitution related charges should law get involved in a bad date. The life that I live personally is ruled by a constant risk assessment. So it means getting creative when vetting a client, it means dropping my pin to friends in case I disappear, because I know if I were to call the police, the possibility that I would be arrested myself is very real. That arrest could be published or broadcasted along with my legal name. And then the small rural towns of Vermont, the stigma associated with these types of public shaming's could likely hurt my ability to find stable housing or employment outside of the adult industry. When I was dancing only a year and a half ago in a legal and regulated space. I was assaulted by a client one negotiating dance prizes. I did immediately report this incident to security, but security had been paid off by that client. This is just an example of ways that this bill could protect people in the event of exploitative activity. And so recently there were attacks in Atlanta on establishments perceived to be places of sex work. And regardless of whether or not those victims or sex workers themselves, eight people lost their lives that day. And the shooter had plans to go and attack a pornography set thereafter. Well, no pornography is a fully legal and regulated form of sex work. If violence against a fully regulated violence against fully regulated sex work and those even perceived as doing illegal sex work is going up such as in Atlanta. Then it kind of begs the question of what do we need to do differently for those that we've lost who don't end up making the evening news. In the days following Atlanta, my attention has been brought to an uptake of assaults in the sex worker community across the nation. And here I see my siblings in the industry closing around each other for that protection that community offers. Unfortunately, none of these victimized workers will see justice through the legal system because their trust in the law enforcement has been strained given the choices that we have. Everyday sex workers must make a calculation risk my health and safety or risk my home or my non sex work job, my schooling, my freedom. In these instances of violence against people in my labor community. I saw images of my colleagues faces broken and bruised, some requesting funding for surgery or relocation. The tragic fact of the matter is that their assailants will not be arrested, because to report their assaults would incriminate themselves. What they might be asked would be things like what were you doing at the time. Why were you there. That kind of brings me back to the Good Samaritan bill and the importance of it. I wanted to talk a little bit about instances of human trafficking as members of the local government. No mystery to me that this is a concern for you. As it is for us at the Eshtar collective being a vehemently anti trafficking organization. So the Good Samaritan bill could be a multi layered power of protection here in Vermont. It could be preventative and not just reactive. Not only would it allow sex workers and survivors of trafficking. It would also allow them to feel confident to report a crime they are a witness to our victim of, but they can also use this law to de escalated danger, a potentially dangerous situation. In erotic labor who knows the rights under this law could feel confident in calling the police before the moment of violence, or they could there, or they could evoke their right to call in the police that they feel a client is exhibiting behavior that would warrant police action. There would be a tool of coercion for a client or a pimp to use in order to exploit a worker or survivor, which is a common tactic of exploitation. We often get asked things like who are you going to call the police, and we do have it ingrained in us the idea of your quote hooker, they won't believe you, or they will arrest you first. That's why this bill gives us hope. It says to us, we're human, and we deserve to be safe and alive. It says that the Vermont government cares about that. Furthermore, in course of relationships between trafficking victims and their traffickers. This legislation will provide these victims a way to freedom from exploitation without fear of arrest. Currently under the law survivors of trafficking are often arrested, while the narrative and the courts in the media is one of rescue. But is there any other scenario in which someone who is being rescued or liberated is handcuffed and put in the back of a police car, later to be put into a cage. Our duty is to stop this hurtful hurtful response to victims and survivors of human trafficking. And I do believe that this bill is a very for a very important first step. This is my residence in Vermont, knowing that our history is one of leading by example. The passage of this bill changes the dialogue between working people in the industry and the law. If we can work together to protect all of our laborers in Vermont. We can build trust and combat the life threatening violence. What we have here today is an example is an opportunity to further build our state's legacy of working together across the political spectrum to create change. Sorry. We were a part of spearheading the effort to give marriage rights to the queer community, and we have already given goods, a good Samaritan bill for persons with substance use disorder. Vermont party already put in place a lot of protected tainies from essential from sexual assault by police because our state does recognize that nobody has the ability to offer real sexual consent. When their freedom of movement is being controlled by police custody. This was a good step into establishing trust with the police and the good Samaritan bill is a gesture for sex workers and trafficking survivors to give that trust to law enforcement as well. I want to thank you all again for your acknowledgement of our humanity. This bill does affect more than just the sex worker community in Vermont, it does again offer an element of protection of people who are being coerced in exploitative situations who might not have the language or legal resources to seek protection. I'm open now to any questions anyone might have. And thank you again for the opportunity to speak. Thank you so much and, and it was perfect year. All technology problems were, were solved so I'm really, I'm really glad that that we could see you and and hear your testimony and so appreciate your, your courage and being a voice for your community and your industry and, and your safety does matter. Thank you very, very much. And, and the ability for community members to, to trust law enforcement has always been critical but is especially critical in these times and so I, I thank you for your, for your advocacy on this bill. So thank you so much. I don't see any members. I have to excuse my assistant here. She she wanted to. Any of us have assistance we love meeting each other. It's sweet. Not seeing any, any hands at this point, but I, if you're, if you're able to stay with us it's that'd be wonderful and folks may have, have questions later. And I am open for any clarifying dialogues as to what trafficking actually looks like in the state of Vermont. The part of my job with the S.T.R. collective is to help demystify the image of the sex worker, and also bring to light truths about the trafficking pandemic in the United States. And some organizations do offer a lot of misinformation, suggesting that trafficking in the US is largely of a sexual nature. So if anyone has any clarifying questions about that matter, because it is a really important issue. And our organization wants to be on top of advocating for the protection of everybody. I am here for that. Great. Thank you. Thank you so much. Okay. You're welcome. Thank you. Sorry, just going to pull up my. And this is maybe the first time we've seen you this session. I don't, I'm not sure, but, but it's a see you. You too. Sorry, now I'm having technical difficulties describing my testimony. Right. With you, I apologize. Here we go. For being here, happy to be here for the first time this session. My name is David Mickenburg, and I'm here today on behalf of decriminalized sex work, which is a leading national organization, advocating for the end of the criminalization of sex work. And I'm happy to be here to talk about this specific provision. To be clear at the onset. We are anti trafficking advocates at our core. We believe that part of the anti trafficking effort is the separation of adult consenting sex work from criminal human trafficking, but that that is not before your committee today. We're supporting a small provision that would extend the harm reduction policies called good Samaritan immunity that you've enacted around drug policy to sex workers. And it's hard. This issue, like the work I've done for almost two decades on drug policy is about harm reduction inherent to this approach is an acknowledgement, setting all moral judgments aside of the reality of sex work as part of our state, our world, despite its ongoing criminalization. And once we acknowledge that sex work is part of our society we must then ask the question, how are we able to best deal with the potential negative consequences of such work. Right now, as many of you, I'm sure are aware of and as Henry just alluded to Vermont has an active sex work marketplace, you can see that by searching for my escort on the internet to see sex workers advertising. And because this work is happening in the shadow of the law, sex workers face a lot of challenges verifying the identity and the safety of clients before they engage with them. Giving sex workers as this provision does the ability to contact law enforcement without fear of prosecution will empower those workers to advocate for their personal safety in a way which remains unlikely under our current laws. Leading human rights organizations such as amnesty International human rights watch the open society Institute, the human rights campaign and the ACLU have taken strong positions in favor of policies that will reduce the harms associated with this work. Throughout the world have begun to implement harm reduction policies associated with sex work and legislators around our country have begun to seriously take up harm reduction policies associated with this work. In fact, in the last few years California past legislation that implemented similar language to what you are considering today. And New York, New Hampshire Washington State Rhode Island and Washington DC have all organized efforts to improve sex work related policies. Finally, the legislation you're discussing today really is anti trafficking legislation by allowing for the issue of sex work to come out of the shadows through a good Samaritan law. We are able to focus needed resources on those human rights abusers that are coercing and forcing people into sex work, and we are empowering workers to come forward and work with law enforcement to root out these individuals without fear of prosecution. So over the day there should be public health provisions enacted to reduce the harms we must. We must ask is our, sorry, we must ask the question, what are the harms associated with sex work, including sexual violence, public health issues work conditions, and they'll collateral consequences of an arrest. I appreciate that this bill looks to the public health approach and work to respect the lives and dignity of those that are sex workers in this state. The good Samaritan section of 18 will provide a life saving outlet for sex workers and those that are being human human traffic to help ensure their safety, and it embodies the harm reduction principles that Vermont has embraced in other areas of the law. That is it I'm happy to answer any questions and appreciate your good work on this really public health and life saving legislation. I would just add, we've seen and actually I personally experienced the good Samaritan law in action the other day. When I found somebody on the street passed out who had had a drug overdose and I felt totally comfortable calling 911 and calling the police knowing that whatever situation he was in the most important thing was making sure that he was safe and alive and all other factors would be taken into account later but this this bill is really in the spirit of that legislation, prioritizing the lives, the health and the safety of Vermonters first and understanding that that's the most important thing that we can do for folks. So, thank you so much sorry for the technical difficulties. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you so much, David. And yes, it is about saving lives and public health and public safety. So thank you. Again, not seeing any, any hands. Okay, Chris Fenno Center for crime victim services. Good morning. And Chris does have written testimony that has been posted. Yes. Good morning. Good morning for the record Chris Fenno executive director of the Vermont Center for crime victim services. I to applaud this piece of legislation about the good Samaritan piece and, and it's important to realize in the context of safety for victims that that this is a historical kind of that that people use that trafficking victims are told you will be arrested victims of domestic violence are told by their abusers you will be arrested you're the crazy one. Nobody will believe you it's it you know all of those power differentials that we see really breed on that. And then you add a layer of potentially of substance use abuse, and that it all gets very confused. So that said, in that context, the Center does support this legislation. We currently have an initiative with the federal government on creating and supporting the human trafficking task force in Vermont. And, and then we have two particular case manager positions that we support one in South Burlington and one in Rutland. So, we are through this human trafficking task force their subcommittees are really looking at what trafficking looks like in Vermont. Up until we, the time we got this grant which was two years, about two years ago. This group really looked at just sex work and, and people who are being trafficked for sex. Not the grant, we established a labor subcommittee, and that has been very active in trying to get people to the table to get law enforcement to the table to really create policies and procedures for responding to victims of labor trafficking and how that will look because they too are told, if you call the police, you're the one who's going to be arrested so the police really are used in all of these situations as a threat. So, having this piece of legislation that would say, hey, you can call the police, you're a bystander. It's okay, we're not going to arrest you if you have drugs on you if you, if you were engaged in, in sex work, all of those things will support victims and survivors. In addition to the work that we do on with the human trafficking task force, it is a joint effort with the Vermont State Police. So we had to, we had that was by design, the federal government said you need to have these two entities work together. And so they got to hire a person we got to hire a person, and then coven hasn't really helped. So, but we are. We're happy with the policies and procedures that have come forth. So far, the Center's real task was to see where we might make an impact around funding, because they're up until three years ago, there were no services that this that the center was providing, specifically for people who are traffic, other than those who found themselves involved with either the sexual assault, or the domestic violence programs. So if a person reports to law enforcement that they are a victim, or a witness to a crime that arose from the person's involvement in prostitution or human trafficking. We believe the person should not be cited arrested or prosecuted for a violation of these offenses. So that's why we support this. We also know that currently, and it shouldn't be where you find yourself living or find yourself working that you get either protection or not protection. So we know that there are police departments that don't prosecute. But it's it's not across the board, and it shouldn't matter where you are in Vermont you should get the same response from law enforcement, and this bill will do that and that is why we support it. I can certainly take any questions, and I can hang out in case people have questions later. Thank you so much Chris. It's very helpful and you know that what we call is geographic justice, which goes here to your last point is is incredibly important. Barbara you. There you go. Barbara. Thank you. And my question is probably for both Henry and for Chris. I'm wondering if, like word is out on the street that certain law enforcement officers are okay to call. And if they've been utilized. I'm also wondering. I'm assuming that we have both that we have an array of gender sex workers, and I'm wondering if it's been difficult for male sex workers like more difficult also to ask for help. I also understand that there's a lot more activity online. And so I guess I'm wondering, I'm assuming if somebody is doing business in Vermont, either on either or both ends that this would. The good Samaritan laws would apply to them. So that one might be for for ledge counsel. I can certainly speak. I can, I can certainly speak on just the general relationship between people in the sex worker community and law enforcement across the board, I will say historically. There's not really a vetting system in place for officers of the law who are safe to contact. And I've never been in a legally difficult situation where I could call 911 and request one officer. Right. In the state of Vermont, arrests that are docketed up in public documents are more often like they are disproportionately cis gendered male in the sex worker community that that part of our demographic is grossly underrepresented. And with our current like cultural understanding of what domestic violence trafficking and predatory behavior looks like. More often than not even in non sex work related incidents of domestic violence, if there is a cis gendered male president, they are more likely to be prosecuted. For acts of violence and abuse. This, this is in part just our, our dialogue of what violence looks like across the gender spectrum. But that is again, why is our collective has wanted to reach out across all all spectrums of gender and sexuality. We want accurate representation of every sex workers experience at least in the state of Vermont. We do work nationally with other coalitions, Ella one down in New Hampshire that deals with sex workers across the region of the Northeast, as opposed to ish tar which is only statewide. I'm newer at this part of advocacy. A lot of what I've done is grassroots and because the nature of our labor is so criminalized on and so buried, especially in the Northeast, it's been a real challenge for us to get effective outreach to those to those of our community for the probably for their own fear of security and arrest, which is another reason this bill is so important for us all to understand really what other nuances are in place and the differences between trafficking and sex work. So we get a better understanding of labor is that are being exploited across the spectrum. Karen and Bill says that Vermont takes interest in what that looks like. I hope that answers some questions I'd like to hand the floor over to Chris now. Thank you. I would say that in Vermont, it's a, I haven't heard that there are certain law enforcement officers that are safer you could go to. It's, we see it more regionally, we know of regions where people who are being trafficked are arrested. I think that where this lies right now in Vermont is still with a feeling of rescuing people, and so not really listening to what the victim or survivor wants to happen so we have heard stories of people being transferred to another part of the state and held in jail for their own safety. Those kinds of things all erode the self and the sense of self that we would hope would be there. Law enforcement doesn't have the same goals as we have. You know, they, they don't. And so all of the education and ongoing conversations are important. But the one thing I know about law enforcement is that they try to follow the law. So that's why this is an important piece of legislation, because if they, if they don't want to do it. That's something, but if this law is on the books, then they're going to be held accountable for that. Thank you. Thank you. Very, very helpful. Thank you. Appreciate it. Selena. I have a question that's that builds a little bit on that. And I had been thinking maybe I would hold questions to then and hear all the witnesses. And this might be a question other witnesses want to answer to in your testimony as you come up but I know that with my own my, I say my, my communities police department. Speaking to the issue of how, how police apply these laws and the question of geographic justice which I really appreciate you bringing up so much is that they, when, when we had a change in states attorneys in chinning County. I just want to be clear that neither of the states attorneys former, the previous one or the current one in chinning County prosecute prostitution charges but I remember the police coming in. And I remember committee at one point members of Burlington police and saying, we really hope the new states attorney will start charging prostitution charges, because it was such problem that they. So, and their rationale was like because that is the only way we can help people. And I would just, I hear that a lot about questions of criminalization and decriminalization around sex work and drug possession. I'd love to hear, especially Henry but but any witnesses, like what is your response to that sense of, oh, an arrest is a mechanism to change, you know, get someone help, because I hear it a lot. First off, so nationwide. Last updated check I saw in 35 different states it's perfectly legal for an arresting officer to engage in sexual activity with the detainee. So even with that understanding as a nation as a national trend, I would say, you know, certainly not to be arrested is, it's a really traumatizing event. And in my past experiences with people who have been criminalized and arrested. They haven't been in situations where they felt that the officers involved had proper deescalation training. And it wasn't, it wasn't a diplomatic affair. And also, we could look at the history of drug use in our nation and across the globe, and the effects that harm reduction has versus criminalization when we put people through the prison industrial complex. For instance, I have a sister in Missouri who's about to be discharged from a federal penitentiary. She spent the duration of the pandemic incarcerated. She lives with substance use disorder. So she was arrested for a victimless crime. She was not distributing. She was using. And instead of putting her into a rehabilitation center, which was offered by the defendant, the defendant's attorney, my sister's attorney. They put her back in prison. This is I think her second time being incarcerated. That really speaks volumes to me, the effectiveness of harm reduction versus incarceration. Substance use disorder is a disease. But today we're talking about trafficking versus consensual sex work consensual sex work is a career path. It is a valid form of labor. It's one of the oldest in the, in the planet's history. And it hasn't gone anywhere despite any attempts to criminalize it. And the further that we criminalize sex work, the further we get away from understanding the differences between trafficking and consensual work. 80% of the trafficking that ends up happening in the United States is of an agricultural or service oriented nature. It has very, very little to do with sex. That isn't to say that coercive relationships don't happen between workers and their pimps, their boyfriends, their landlords. We hear stories about this all the time. But unless we offer protection towards people who are in coercive relationships, meaning they are making decisions to engage in sex work. But under the threat of outside violence. So there's still, you know, consenting to an act of prostitution on paperwork, as our laws understand it, but they're not doing it a free will. So until we go towards a direction of harm reduction, all we're going to see is people processed in and out of the prison industrial complex without rehabilitative services, without harm reduction services, without mental health assistance, without access to trauma care. And what we see when that happens is people going back into prison. They don't learn their lesson. They don't turn their life around. They don't report their abusers. They go back into prison with a felony, you know, they don't they don't have access to work. They don't have access to housing because of a felony charge or gross misdemeanor charge that would be on their record that people do request information on really what we do when we put people in prison is we debilitate them. Thank you. Thank you. That was such a helpful. Yeah. Right. Thank you. And, and also you touched on tourism and agriculture and, and those are two industries that that Vermont depends upon. I remember years ago when we first looked at human trafficking and looking at a state law and, you know, the reaction was, it's not here. Why, you know, why do we need this was was here then and, and it's here now. And so we certainly have the environment for it. So thank you. Barbara. Hi, Henry. Thank you for your words. I mean, I, it's important for me to say to our committee that we all know that when somebody gets incarcerated in Vermont. We are not guaranteeing their sexual safety, as we have witnessed through reports of assaults happening in prison just like you referenced law enforcement in many states. So, not only are people at risk of getting raped from their co inmates but from staff as well. And they're it's sort of the irony of locking the person up and for their own good. I also just want to say I know from clients that I've worked with in the past, when they have been public about being a sex worker, either in court or in the media. They needed extra protection and it's, it's just been unbelievable. I, I was both surprised and horrified at what was happening right here in our, in our city and state. And, and a lot of these people are underage which I know adds another layer of complication. But, um, yeah, I, it's, this is really important. So I really appreciate everyone's efforts to bring this to us again. Thank you Barbara. Okay, so now welcome Kara Casey, the network. Good morning. Good morning. I apologize for any traffic noise I was also having some technical difficulties this morning some outside an office. Thank you so much for holding space for these really important conversations today. I'm Kara Casey and I'm the director of economic empowerment at the Vermont network. And I'm here to speak with you today in support of the language from S 103 that was added to age 18. I remember in 2019, the network the AG's office in the center were directed to review and make recommendations on the modernization of the state's current prostitution and human trafficking laws. And this policy came out of was one of the consensus that came out of that group was to adopt a law similar to our liability or immunity from liability in our overdose prevention law. We see this bill largely as a victim safety bill and anti trafficking. And from liability in 18 is an important step in ensuring that if someone who experiences or witnesses a crime, especially a violent crime, they're able to seek support and justice without fear of being prosecuted for engaging in prostitution. Furthermore, it will provide immunity from a variety of drug crimes for these individuals and as you've heard that's that's really important. It leaves that when crafting policy we should listen to those that are most impacted. And as you've heard today. And as we've seen nationally and in Vermont, those engaged in sex work are advocating for policy change in order to increase their safety. Sex workers and victims of human trafficking are particularly vulnerable to sexual violence and physical violence. There are claims to reduce the harm experienced by sex workers and victims of human trafficking, who are reluctant to go to the police because of potential arrest. And I want to highlight that this bill does not provide immunity from human trafficking charges, but it may however protect the lives of those who are experiencing human trafficking. I just want to thank you again for the opportunity to speak in support of this bill we believe it's a small but important step in protecting some of Vermont's most vulnerable community members. And we look forward to having more conversations about this in the future. And I just wanted to reiterate reiterate that conversation around that representative Richardson brought up around incarceration. So we know that investing in really investing in communities and invest investing in harm reduction and supportive services for folks is really the best way to support them and not incarceration so wanted to reiterate that. Thank you. Thank you so much. Community members questions. And that's not seeing any at this time so so thank you very much.