 Okay. Okay, good morning everybody to BC 310, our course on church and ministry administration. Thank you all for joining the class today. Let's take a moment to pray and then we'll get started. Can somebody lead us in prayer please? Yes, Asha, go ahead please. Dear God, thank you so much for your loving kindness. Thank you for going out every day and you've got a prayer in our month's God. Thank you so much, Lord, as we're about to learn about CME, where we can understand more about what's done in our school. And I pray that as fast as you are about to teach us, Lord, that we may grasp the truth and apply in our hearts and may not just listen to it, but to be the doers of your God. Thank you for your loving kindness and I pray for each one of the students that they will have a blessed day. Thank you for everything Lord, may you pray in the month's God. Amen. Thank you. Thank you. All right, so once again, good morning everybody, welcome to the class. We are talking about church and ministry administration and last week we started talking about culture. We started getting into the topic and we had some interesting discussions. So we're going to continue on that. The plan today is we'll do that in the first hour and in our second hour I'll stop the class a little early, maybe around 10.30 or 10.40. I need to, basically I need to go to the airport after that and then go to Delhi. I have a conference in Delhi. So this evening I'll be speaking at a pastess conference, so I need to get there. Then tomorrow we have two sessions in a youth conference and I get back. So just in the second hour we'll finish a little early. We'll pause a little early, maybe around 10.30, latest 10.40. So that'll give me a little bit of time to head out. Okay, so that's the plan and let's get started. I'll share the course notes now on culture. So we started talking about this last week. And in any organization, so when we specifically look at church or a Christian ministry, let's talk about the church first. We have culture that is within the church as an organization, that means the staff and the people who are working. So that we will refer to that as the workplace culture of that church. But we also have culture of the community, the congregation. So the people who are gathering together or worshiping together, there is a certain culture that is formed over time, of course. And so we need to be sensitive to both. Now if you look at a Christian organization, there is the culture of that Christian organization, how people work together, etc. And that will in some way or in a very quiet way, but it'll definitely impact the kind of ministry that comes out of that organization. And the work they do. I'm going to talk about Christian organizations that are not a church organization, but a general Christian organization. So we need to be sensitive and pay attention to the culture. Now culture of an organization can be intentionally forged. That means you can intentionally, if you're careful, you can carefully intentionally shape the culture of an organization. Now sometimes people don't think about it and so what happens, it's more of an accidental thing, it just happens. And then if you end up with a very bad, and we will talk about it, a very toxic culture or a culture that is not optimal, then a lot of wrong things can happen. Simply because of the kind of culture that was formed, sometimes even accidentally in the organization or in the church community. So it is always better to intentionally shape the culture of the organization and also the congregation. It can be intentionally shaped and we must understand what goes into shaping the culture of the organization. So just to review some of the things we already spoke about last week, when we talk about culture, we're talking about jointly held beliefs. We're talking about these values and practices that that is kind of held within the organization. It refers to also the way of behaving and thinking, what are the norms? This is the way you normally behave and this way we normally look at things, perspectives, our worldviews, our paradigms, our frameworks. And it's also referring to the way things are done. This is how we do things here. So culture can be addressed or explained in many of these ways. Now, in a very large organization, there will of course be subcultures. That means while there is an overarching culture of the organization within each department, they could be slight variations, they could be slight localizations of culture. And of course, especially when it extends geographically, the expression of culture within that global organization would vary regionally, of course. So we must be mindful of that as well that just because an organization claims a certain culture, it is not necessarily universal. Within that organization, you will find variations in the expressions of culture. And sometimes the subcultures themselves could be very different from the parent organization. And then there could be a real clash and problems happen even in that context. But anyway, we are looking more from a Christian church organization. And let's see how we can go about this. Now, why is talking about culture important? Because when you look at it from a Christian organization perspective, it will affect a lot of things. And I've just mentioned a few here. It affects the employee experience, the people who are working, the church staff, their experience in the organization, which therefore affects productivity and therefore affects how people are served. And culture is something like an immune system. It can protect the organization. So when there is something that comes in that is contrary to the established culture, there is an automatic response of rejecting negative influences. So we say that kind of action or that kind of behavior is not tolerated in this environment because this environment already has a very good culture in that sense. So it can work as an immune system to reject wrong influences. So very important for us to understand is how is organization culture shaped or how is the culture of the congregation shaped? We must understand that, especially those of us in Christian ministry. Now, either you're going to run an organization, Christian organization, or you're going to be pasting a congregation, a church, and you need to understand how is the culture going to be shaped? And therefore, I should be very intentional about creating this culture. Remember, culture is shaped and formed over time. You know, it doesn't happen in one day. It is something that you do over time that eventually will shape the culture. And then, of course, you know, we will need to refine. We need to change or correct. Sometimes we need to correct the culture. And I will share some examples of that as we go along. So we were talking about this last week that leadership is so important because the leadership, it all starts here. If the leadership models the behavior, the leadership in many ways embodies the culture, especially when you are starting out or in a pastoral type of thing, you know, people look at the leader, they follow the leader. So all the leaders, the leadership. So we have to start with the leaders, the leadership and say, this is the kind of culture we want to create. Therefore, we are the first people who are going to embody this culture. Then people are going to see us and they're going to follow that. We will reproduce after our own kind. That's a law, you see. So we have to be that if you want to create that culture in our organization or in the church congregation. So we will mention, you know, what are the good qualities that leaders must embody. But we were talking about last time, you know, servant, servanthood. How can you create an organization where everybody has the heart of a servant, a willing, they serve willingly. They're not looking for status. They're not looking for power and position, you know. And sometimes, you know, in the corporate world, position, status, role, power, influence, all those things are important because then you can control, you can direct, you can do this. Now, when people move into a church context, they come with that background. They are thinking in terms of, oh, I need to have a role. I need to have a position. I need to have, you know, a certain status. And so we have to help them unlearn that and say, no, no, no, no, no. In the Christian organization or in the church context, those are negatives, you know. While they may work in the corporate culture, in the church culture, those are negatives we don't think like that. We don't think in terms of role, position, status, you know, that is not important at all. Here, we have to think in terms of serving, anonymity. Don't worry if you're not recognized, your reward comes from God. Recognition is not a priority. So the culture, the leadership culture is kind of reversed when compared to the way things are done, you know, generally speaking in the world or in the corporate. So many of us have, you know, we move from the corporate into the church and then we have to unlearn, we have to relearn what is priority as a leader and in leadership, you know, that you move in a different way as a leader. So that's something, you know, I've also noticed and sometimes even among volunteers, I find, you know, when, you know, of course, in the church congregation, we have people of all kinds of people serving. And sometimes I see that, you know, when people are coming from the corporate back and they're very pushy with their ideas, you know, the very force with ideas that I need to push back in a gentle way, saying, yeah, we respect ideas, but it's not going to work here the way it works in the corporate, meaning you cannot push your ideas. You can't be very forceful in your ideas. There is a different way we go about working here, you know, kind of. So I need to very gently push back when I see, and I'm not saying everybody's like this. I'm just saying generally when sometimes people come from that perspective, they're very forceful with their ideas and push back. Sometimes people automatically want the role first. They want the status first. They want the recognition. Then I said, no, no, no, no, first yourself, you know, and then at the right time, the role will be given, you know. So it works the other way. You first serve, you prove yourself, be willing to be a willing servant. And then comes the role and the recognition, whatever, you know, as opposed to the way it may happen in another context. So that's very important in learning how a leadership has to model this in the Christian church or organization so that from there things can happen, you know. And then with the number pastoral team, I sometimes I have to correct our own pastors. Say, hey, no, don't do that. Don't do it like that because if one of our pastors behaves in a certain way, people watching that person will start imitating that and they will begin to imbibe a wrong attitude or a wrong culture, you know. So I need to correct them and say, no, no, don't do it like that. Be kind, be gentle, you know, things like, you know, how communication is done and so on. I need to just say, hey, do it differently. So these are these are done intensely because you understand the importance of leaders, that if leaders don't model it or if leaders model the wrong culture, a wrong attitude, wrong practice, wrong behavior, people are going to imbibe that and then undoing that is very, very difficult. So overall, you know, we need to pass leaders, be exemplary in our behavior. Because, you know, the way and the scripture that comes to my mind is first Timothy chapter 4 verse 12 where Paul writes to Timothy and he says, be an example. So he's talking to Timothy. Timothy is the pastor, the leader of the congregation in Ephesians. And Ephesians is a very influential church because it not only is influencing Ephesians, it's influencing all the other churches in that region who are in the vicinity. It's a very influential church and Timothy is in charge of it. And Paul tells Timothy, be an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in faith, in love, in purity, in all of these things so that nobody can look down on your youth. Nobody can look down on you just because you're young. But even though you're young, you be exemplary. You know, that way your youth cannot be held against you because people see that you are exemplary in the way you, you know, in all of these things as a believer. So as leaders, we must be exemplary. And I'm just thinking whether to share a particular testimony or not because I don't want to, you know, I don't want to. But let me say this in a very brief way. I've had to dismiss certain leaders because of this reason. You know, when one of our own leaders, you know, and I'm working with them and I say leaders means pastors in the church or leaders, people are leading ministries. When we are working together, it's very important that we embody this culture. And suppose, you know, and I have, and this has happened, I just don't want to get into the details. But I work with this leader and I notice that things are wrong. They're what they're doing, the way they conduct, basically, the way they're conducting themselves. It's not what we want to have at ABC, the kind of exemplary leadership because we expect our leaders to be exemplary. We've got to set it, we've got to model it. But if a leader is not doing it, then I talk to them. I say, OK, you know, look, this is not the way to conduct ourselves. This is not the way to do it. And I'm not talking about, you know, quote unquote, sinful things. No, they're not doing sinful things. It's just that the conduct is not exemplary. And therefore, it is affecting the people or whom they are leading. And the people whom they're leading are beginning to follow their conduct, which is not acceptable the way we want it. So, you know, after repeated discussions and, you know, if that doesn't change, then I have to tell them to step down, release them from that particular role, leadership role, so on and so forth. And I've done that, you know, and it is painful. When you have to do that at this level, at the level of a pastor leader, it's painful for the individual. It's painful for the people following that person or that individual. But you are looking at what is happening, that their conduct is not what we want to embody as a church and in the congregation. So it's not like they're sinning. It's just that it's out of line. It's not exemplary. It's not the right kind of behavior that we want in the organization. And so, even though after repeated discussions and feedback and correction, if that doesn't change, then, you know, I've had to do that on a couple of occasions. So, you know, people may not understand the importance. Okay, this person didn't sin, some grievous sin. That is true. But people need to understand the culture we are trying to create in the organization because culture eventually affects everybody. It affects everything that happens. It affects how lives are formed and shaped in the long run. And that's why this is important. Okay, so let me pause here for any questions before I go on to the next point. So leadership is very important here in shaping culture. Any other thoughts? Any, sorry, any questions on that? All okay? The class is very quiet today. Okay, okay. Louis, please go ahead with your question. Good morning, everyone. I had a meeting with the construction office staff and they had some concerns regarding not being heard when it comes to ideas and in the field that they can bring to the table, you know. So, at what point do you balance the rigidity of the leader versus the acceptability of ideas? Because it's a kind of recurring decimal in, especially in a church space where the leader seems to want to have all the ideas and the people are just supposed to just come in and function under the ideas because it seems to be like quote-unquote from God. And the people just, you know, have to follow through. I hope on the research that balance, especially when you're creating a culture and you're taking it with you to buy into the business. Sometimes you might have an input into the quote-unquote, the success of the vision. Very good question. Very good question. So, the question is, you know, what Louis is asking is, so there's a leader, we could be a pastor or the leader of the Christian organization and then you have all the other people who are working together and, you know, let's just call them church staff and they are expressing ideas and if the leader is not necessarily welcoming the ideas or being open to those ideas, but it's all unidirectional and we refer to that as unilateral. You know, it's coming from the leader to the staff and it's, you know, it's just unilateral, it's coming from one way or it's just one way and then the staff are just expected to carry out whatever happens. Now, that is not a healthy culture, it's not a healthy environment. The change that has to happen is in the heart of the leader, right? It has to happen out of the leader. The leader has to be open to, first of all, willing to let people share their ideas, you know, okay, let's have a discussion. So one of the things that we must learn to do as leaders is to give people the opportunity to express their ideas, especially if it is, you know, it's the team. You know, of course, you have a congregate, if you're in the church, you have a congregation, there are many hundreds, maybe sometimes thousands of people, you can't sit and listen to every idea, but you can always be given technology today. We can always give people the opportunity to share their ideas. You know, whether they do it or not, it's up to them, but at least you're giving the opportunity. Now, definitely at the organization level, within the organization, with all the people working, we should at least give them the opportunity to share their ideas. We're not saying we're going to do every idea because we cannot. There may be many good ideas, but, you know, there are other factors to think about time and resources and all those kinds of things, but at least people can share their ideas, express their ideas. So that opportunity should be given, and that should come from the leader or leadership, right? And that's a very important part of culture. You know, the ability to, let's say, the opportunity for discussion, the opportunity to share ideas, people can express their ideas. It doesn't mean everything is going to be implemented, but at least everything people can share. And a good leader is able to listen to all these ideas and then put them together and then see, you know, what are the ones that can be executed? What are the ones, you know, we prioritize them and then say, okay, you know, let's work on these in this order, so on. So for that, of course, the leader or the leadership team can do that, but at least people should be given the opportunity to express the idea. Now, there are situations like Louis is sharing where the leader or the leadership doesn't even think like that. They only think about, I will pray, I will seek God, I will get the ideas, and I will tell you what to do and you do it. That's very unidirectional. It's not a healthy environment. And it also means the people who are working and serving don't have a voice and the chances of going wrong is very high, because if the leader has a wrong idea or a bad idea, nobody's there to say, hey, that idea is not good, you know. And there are no checks and balances and so it's very dangerous. And can the congregation or can the team, how can the team effect change? Well, I think in a very respectful way, those who have some access to the leader or to the leadership can propose saying, and of course we had to do it in a nice way, we have to put it out in a nice way, can we have a discussion on this? You know, something, a decision is being made and say, you know, whoever pastor or whoever it is, thank you for sharing, but pastor, can we have a little discussion with the rest of the team about this? So what we're doing is we are introducing the leader to the idea of discussion. We're introducing the leader or requesting the leader saying, hey, why don't we do, you know, or technically they call it brainstorming, why don't we brainstorm, why don't we share ideas, you know, so if we can put that forward to the leader in a nice way, we're not doing it in a disrespectful way, but if somebody who, you know, who is close to the leader can say, hey, why don't we get, you know, the five people, the 10 people who are part of the staff, why don't we all discuss on this? And that way, one, we can open ourselves to more ideas. God can speak through anyone. The Holy Spirit can give creative ideas to many different people. Second, it automatically gets ownership. That means when people are contributing and people are brainstorming together, they take collective ownership. So half-hour motivation issues are taken care of because they have contributed to the idea. They are, they own the idea or ideas that have been shared, and so they are willing to go ahead and do it, right? So you have, you know, a discussion or a brainstorming, whatever you want to call it, a session. So we can suggest that to the, to the leader saying, pastor, you know, we are planning, you know, we're planning this, I don't know, event or conference or decision. Can we get five people together to discuss about it, to share ideas, to discuss? Can we do that? So if the, the password leader is introduced to the idea of discussion of brainstorming, then they will begin to realize that that is a much better way to make decisions. Now, the other things, you know, from a leadership perspective, we would think about is, see, there are times a leader has to be decisive, you know, and say, OK, we are going to go ahead and do this. And so as a leader, you should know when that kind of an action is necessary, right? When you're saying, look, we are going to go ahead with this, you know, a new idea. Now, some of that, especially in the early stages of the ministry would be required because you may not have that many people on the team or the team itself will be inexperienced. The team may not have the big picture understanding. And in those situations, the leader has to be more decisive and say, we're going to go ahead with this, let's go ahead, let's start, so on. Or there are times when a lot of ideas have been said, a lot of good ideas. Now it's the leader's responsibility to, you know, sift through all the good ideas and then decide or the leadership team, they got to sift through all the ideas and say, OK, you know, we've got 20 good ideas. All of them are good, but we can't do all 20. We need to pick two. Well, that's where the leader has to be decisive and say, OK, these are the two things we are going to do because of these reasons. You know, maybe the other ones that are very aligned to where we are going or the other ones that we can readily do and we can take action, so on and so forth. So there are times when the leader has to be decisive. Like I said, either in the initial stages or at times when there are a lot of good ideas and you have to pick something, you have to pick one or two ideas. But I think what's important is the process. When we have an open process, that is a way of doing things where people can be part of it, they can share their ideas, they can discuss, they can ask questions. They are not afraid to do that. That is a very healthy culture. It's a very healthy environment. So say I know you dropped off in between, but I hope you got what we said. That's why I got to start. OK. All right, any other questions on this? We were talking about how leadership affects culture. Any other thoughts anybody wants to share on that? Experiences, et cetera. All right, then let's move on to the next point. How so how is culture within the organization or within the church community shaped? First, he said the leadership has to model it. And we're putting a lot of responsibility on the leadership. I understand. But that's the fact of the matter that culture flows from the leadership. And then when you think about a large organization, we are then referring to leadership at all levels because leadership at every level influences the culture of the people directly under them. So we have as a leader, you also have to look out at how other leaders under you are doing because you understand that their conduct, their behavior is shaping the culture of the people under them. That's very important because the people under them may not be directly influenced by your culture, maybe to some extent, but more so by the people immediately over them. And so you have to watch over the culture of leaders underneath you, whom you are leading. And so that's very important. Let's go to the next point. I hope I didn't spend too much time on this, but it's very important. Some of the other things that generally affect culture, and we can go through this rather quickly, is when we share stories. Stories of how things began, stories of past victories, of how various situations were overcome. As these stories are told and retold, they inspire the shape, they guide behavior within the organization. So stories, they capture the imagination of people, especially stories of the organization's own journey, or people within the organization, their journey. Those stories are very, very powerful in shaping culture. So at different points, if we are very thoughtful, we can introduce these stories. And in a very thoughtful way, very intentional way, have these stories shared, whether from the leaders or others who've been part of the organization. And as they share their stories, you know, it is really powerful, it really captures the imagination of people and helps shape, guide, and the behavior within the organization. So stories are very powerful. However, in the Christian context, these stories can also be very dangerous. Somehow, especially when you're talking about the leadership, when the leaders have very unique stories, then it becomes dangerous to focus on them because it puts that leader in a pedestal. So for example, you know, and this happens and this has been happening over and over again. And so let me explain that. So for example, if a leader says, you know, when I was, you know, whatever, when I was seeking God and the Lord Jesus appeared to me three times on three consecutive days and he put his right hand on me and, you know, I had this great experience. And for 48 hours, I was under the anointing and whatever, you know, the leader has such an amazing story. And then, you know, then he says, after that, I began my ministry. And today the ministry, you know, so what happens when a leader says that kind of a story? On the one hand, it is very, it is very, very powerful. But on the other hand, it is very negative. So why do you say it's negative? Because now everything in that organization is predicated on that leader's experience. So everybody, if the leader keeps on repeating that story, which is a true story, I'm not you know, I'm not saying it's not it, let's say it is a true story and he had such an experience, you know, that wonderful, but if the leader keeps repeating that particular story or, you know, those kinds of stories, everybody is then being built on that particular leader's experience, which is a very dangerous thing. People need to be established in the Word of God and in the Spirit of God themselves, not on a leader's story or experience. You know, they say, if you're part of this church because this leader had such a great experience or, you know, this ministry is there because of this. So what happens when the leader dies? You know, what happens when the leader goes off the scene for whatever reason? And that story becomes invalidated. And therefore everybody in the organization, everybody in the congregation, the feel invalidated because that story is gone. So that's the danger. So what we must do is, we must intensely share stories that are commonplace, that show how God works in the lives of our day-to-day situations, how the Word of God is applied to our day-to-day lives, and how people in the congregation, their stories, rather than just the leader's own persons, I mean, I'm not saying the leaders should never stare, they should share, they should share. But the focus and the emphasis should not be on those leadership stories alone. It's important, but it should be downplayed. And the stories that are spoken of are stories of how lives, people's lives have been shaped or how God has worked in the ordinary situations of life. So when we share those kinds of stories, what happens is we are saying God is working in all of our lives. God is working in ordinary people. And the focus doesn't become on the leader's personal experiences. It is true, the leader may have had amazing personal experiences, but many leaders have had that. And that's why they started their ministries, of course. But the focus should not be on those stories. It should be on stories of people. And those stories should be told and retold, or the stories of the journey of the community of the church or the organization. Those stories, those victories need to be told and retold. So the focus is not on the leader or on the supernatural experience of one individual, but it's on the community. And those stories become very, very powerful to shape the culture. People understand God is at work. We expect God to work. We expect God to do these things. And then they did the journey forward with that. Any questions on that? We understand that. Christopher, go ahead please. Yes. Thank you, Pastor. Just to add a different comment, which you may have mentioned also, is I think also within when those stories are sort of made a lot bigger than maybe then, and people take it too hard. It also impacts the pastor themselves or the person who is, you know, the story is about because in an aura sort of created around that person. And sometimes that can lead to, as you said, there's many dangerous happens where the person goes to that person's head and they may even fall and then they sort of may even cover up whatever their own deeds are. And it just creates a lot of pride completely into the picture. And in my sort of view, I think Jesus is probably the best example of it, where he did have such a great influence and getting back on, you know, on that, on which authority he was in and, you know, did miracles, healed people. But I think at the end of the day, he was, you know, there was so much of humility. And also I think he also realized that, you know, at the end, he would be, he would be shamed. He would be, you know, by people and, you know, he would actually give up his life for us. So yeah, just already decided that. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Very good. Anybody else? Any other thoughts on stories that shape the organization, the culture? Yeah. So we need to create room for these stories to be shared. One is, of course, you know, simple thing as testimonies. People can email testimony, share testimony, so on. That's a simple thing. But at the same time, you highlight certain things, you know, major victories that God has led the church or the organization through, or major things that you've been able to do together, major obstacles you've overcome, et cetera, you know. So those things really capture the minds and imaginations of people. And it has to be done properly without focus on an individual leader or so on. Okay. Now, the third thing that shapes the culture, let's do one more before the break, are rituals and practices that are repeated consistently. So you know, you say like, these are things we do, or this is the way we do things. So for example, you know, when a person is leaving the organization, let me say, this is what we do at ABC, when one of our church staff, somebody's worked with us, they're leaving. What we do is we have a little get together on their last day, we will have some cake and snacks. It's like almost like a little farewell party where, you know, we have this, we all get together in the office, we have cakes and snacks, and then we let that person talk and say, hey, how was your experience in the organization? What are you going to do next, et cetera. And then we pray for that person, we bless them and we send them out. So while, you know, when a person leaves, it's not a nice thing, you know, you feel sad, you wonder like, hey, what could we have done to keep that person with us, so on and so forth. You know, and it does affect the morale of people a little bit, you know, because somebody who's been working, especially if they've been working with us, and some people have been working with us for a long time, you know, more than 10, 15 years, and they're still with us, and that's wonderful. But then there are some people who may work with us for two years, and then two, three years, and then they may move on, things like that. So that is never a pleasant moment. You know, it is, for all of us, it's like, okay, I wish they stayed, why are they moving, what did we do something wrong, et cetera, so many things. But if we can do something positive, even in that kind of a moment, you know, everybody feels good about it. So this is something we've been practicing. So it's a ritual, it's a practice that we do, right? Okay, people leave who are working with us, they leave for various reasons, you know, they may have found a better opportunity, or they may be moving out of town, they may be wanting to do something different in the ministry, many of them leave because they want to start their own ministries, churches, et cetera, so on, so many reasons. But then on their last day, it's a ritual, it's a practice that we're going to have a little farewell, we don't call it a farewell party, we just get together, we have snacks together, we pray, we let them share, they talk about their experience, they talk about what they're going to do, and we pray for them. So we make it a positive, as positive as we can, we make it a positive moment, even though it is a difficult moment, somebody's leaving the organization. So this is a ritual, it's a practice, and it's always, it's been repeated, I don't know how many years now, we've been doing it over and over again whenever people leave, so the net result is, we think, we look at that as a positive thing, right, we bless them, even if they are leaving, we bless them and we send them with our blessing. Now, if people have left for so many reasons, they go abroad, they go to do higher studies, so on, so forth, things like that. So different, different things you can think about are rituals and practices, some other quick things I'll just mention is, every year we do a volunteer appreciation day, I think I'll mention that in the point number E, where we affirm them, we say thank you, and for all our volunteers, we give them a little gift every year, so then it's like saying, hey, we really appreciate what you're doing, we don't take it for granted because volunteers are serving throughout the year, so these are things we do to affirm, affirm the volunteers. Okay, let me take a question here. Kennedy, you have a question, please go ahead. Just to add something, where we celebrate transition, as in from the school, when we go to the youth, when we go to the young people, someone is in the community, so it's okay, Kennedy, I didn't get everything you said, but I think what you said was, what I was saying is, when this transition, as in from the Sunday school, to the youth, this is a very good transition, to the young professionals, their system is a little bit different, and we grow up very good, that's a really good thing to do, I think it's something we should try doing, we don't do that, but it's a very good idea, you know, like when people are coming out of children's church to the youth, to the teens, or the teens, to the youth, and the youth, to the adults, you celebrate this transition, that's excellent, that's very good, I think it's something we can learn, I will try to suggest that to our team, and see if they want to do it, good idea, thank you for sharing that, okay, so let's pause here, we'll go for our quick break, and as I mentioned, in our second hour, I'll have to stop a little early, maybe around 10 30, maybe 10 14 max, because after that, I just need to get to the airport, and then heading off to Delhi today, evening, speaking to underpastor's conference, and then tomorrow, there are two sessions with the youth conference, so we'll stop a little early in our second session, so I can just head out, okay, so we'll be back in 10 minutes, and we'll continue this, thank you.