 So, thank you, thanks for joining us here and thank you, Musa Esaq and Orly Yadine, for joining us today. We're going to talk a little bit about the Burlington Bethlehem Arad Sister City Program, and maybe just introduce yourselves, Musa. My name is Musa Esaq, I'm Palestinian-American, have lived in Vermont for 46 years, so we are Vermonters by choice. And we love it here, and we love the people, and good friend Orly, more in the last few years, and we go on. Yeah. And I'm Orly Yadine, and I've been in Vermont for 23 years. Is it already? Yes, 23 years. I came here from London, England, where I lived most of my life, but I was born in Israel. Great. And tell me a little bit, how did the Burlington Sister City originate? You're one of the founders, right? Right. Is that correct? Yeah. So, it started with Roz Paine, the late Roz Paine. It was really her idea, and it was a group of friends, Sister Maryam Ward, you know, who passed, and for a beautiful soul, and Sandy Beard and myself. And Chris was involved, you know, behind the scenes, and Roz is the one who really drove us. There are hundreds of American sister cities with Israeli sister cities. Why don't we have not one Palestinian sister city with an American city, and we started working on that. We said, that's a great idea. So we looked for, so those are the founders, Roz Paine, Sandy Beard, Sister Maryam, and myself, and we started looking for a Palestinian city. And Batlehem, not because of religious connotations or any of that, it's because we chose Batlehem because it's the same size as Burlington. It's a university town, and it is artistic town, you know, they have lots of artistry going on, especially with working, and that's why we chose it. In the beginning, it was very contentious, it was not an easy thing. Many people said, you know, the suspicion was, why did you choose Batlehem? And you know, you can choose, to be honest, you can choose any city in the world, say we want to be a sister city, it's not going to be an issue. The moment you say Palestinian sister city, it's an issue, and this is across the country. So we get calls from across the country, consulting with us, we still do. How do you make it work? Because many try and it fails. And I tell them, one, you have to have good progressive people really on your side, especially progressive Jews, on your side working hard on this issue, otherwise it's not going to work. So that's what made it work here is Raya Spain and Company, you know, I give them major credit, and Mayor Clavel was awesome, you know, in the beginning, he was listened and city council, and it was not easy, you know, it was lots of opposition in the beginning, but we created a task force and we said, OK, what's the compromise? And I believe in compromise always. And the compromise was, instead of cancelling the sister city or killing it with Batlehem, they said, what about, somebody said, what about an Israeli city also? And that's how we came a friend of ours, B. Bookchin, said, I know somebody in Arad and she got in touch and we ended up with a tripartite. So our sister city with Palestinian city, Batlehem, was the first in the country. And also we were the number one, the first in the country with the tripartite relationship. And so, Orly, how did you come to be involved in the sister city? Well, when I came here to Vermont, to Burlington, I think I have to mention, again, Ros Payne, because I got to know Ros Payne, she was one of the first people I met. And she was saying, oh, you have to join the sister city, you know. We don't have any Israelis there or something like that. So I came to a few meetings and seemed to have stayed. Yes. Because I like the people. And we love it. And the mission. We love it. Yeah. We are very happy. Well, tell me, what is the mission then? People to people. I mean, Musso, you can correct me as a veteran. I feel as if I'm a veteran by now. It's basically, it's supposedly not a political connection, although everything is politics these days. But it's really people to people with the belief that if you get to meet the people, then many of your ingrained prejudices or animosity or whatever preconceived ideas will fall apart because you see people as human beings and we're all human beings. And how is that? What's what's have you all been to the sisters? Have you visited Arad or Bethlehem? I have not. But Mayor Clevel, I give him credit. He took a delegation, including Roz and Sandy Bird and several others went with him to both Bethlehem and to Arad. Yeah. And I've been to both, but not in the context of sister city. And to be clear, and I think we have a map. I don't have the TV is not on right now, but we do have a map that we can look at that shows where these cities are. Arad is sort of off on the. In the south of Bethlehem. Yeah, it's south of Bethlehem on the east side of Israel, overlooking the Dead Sea. Yeah. And Bethlehem is very, very close to Jerusalem, just south of it. Yeah, 15 minutes. 15 minute drive. Yeah. And tell us, like, what's the relationship? I mean, we have a situation that's going on. How has the sister city, how is your involvement in the sister city affected your understanding of this current situation? From the beginning, we set out with the idea that we cannot force the sister cities to be to work together. Yeah, we would love it. We suggested it, but we left it up to them. They have their own political situations. So we we left it to both Arad and Bethlehem. But because of the politics, it's very difficult. So there hasn't been a lot of no meeting or cross the only meeting was when the mayor of Mayor Tabeeb of Arad came to Bellington with the representative of Mayor Fridge of Bethlehem. The Johnny is his last name. They met here and they signed the agreement with Mayor Clevel. And that was beautiful. And we had parties and we had dinners. So what Orly is saying is you break bread together and you become friends. And Mayor Tabeeb, we were really close to him and his administration. However, of Arad, however, after that became a lot more, how I want to say it, a more conservative government after Tabeeb lost and became very difficult to. And then we had Mayor Batarse of Bethlehem visit Bellington. And the next mayor, I forgot his name, of Arad visit. But he really was interested in business and we could not afford. We could not provide the business opportunities he wanted. So it's been really difficult in the last 15 years or so to be in touch with Arad, even though we've made many attempts, but as Musa said, the municipality changed. And it's an election by party and it was the liquid party who went in. Whereas before it was the Labour Party mayor and they just not responding. Orly tried. Mayor Weinberger sent a letter of congratulations to the new mayor of Arad. He did no answer. But again, we don't give up. So it's still officially a sister city of ours and we will continue working on it. And so how, I mean, and to be, you know, neither of these cities is, well, everything is near to what's going on in Gaza and Israel, but they're outside of that, this sort of direct conflict zone. How does it affect what you're seeing that's going on right now? If you were saying in Bethlehem... In the West Bank, in Bethlehem, and my village, Aboud, where I was born, is totally under lockdown, you know, since the October 7th. And absolutely miserable situation like Bethlehem depends on tourism. Yeah, keep talking. Bethlehem, you were saying Bethlehem depends on tourism. 70% at least of their income is really from tourism and hotels and none of that is there. And it's locked down. So nobody in, nobody out, there's probably not food moving. Like my village, you know, I'll just mention how it's constructed. If you go look at pictures of it, there is a gate at the front of the village. They lock it down, you cannot go out. So what happens, you end up driving on dirt roads and they know you can get out, but it ends up ruining your cars and there is a cost to it and makes it more miserable living. So life is not good on the West Bank. And the other thing that really concerns me, especially with the current government, it's giving green light to settlers committing pogroms. Many Israelis, what's his name? Hagai Matar, who's the executive director of Plus 972. It's a magazine published by journalists, Palestinians and Israelis. And he says it's pogroms, you know, is what's going on and pogroms and what under the Israeli army. So we have to change that. I'm not losing hope yet, and I will not. We just have to work as Americans, as Israelis. There are many Israelis working on changing the situation. They are not in power. And Americans, we have to also push our government to do the right thing. As somebody really is, you know, being born in Israel, assuming and identifying as an Israeli, how does being involved in the sister city affect your perspectives, either politically or personally? Being involved in the sister city? Yeah. It doesn't affect my politics. I mean, they haven't changed in any way. They just confirmed. I mean, the reason I still attend and am part of it is because it conforms to the way I view life. I mean, it's become harder and harder to think of people to people when really all you want to do is just stop what's going on. But you still have to remind yourself that if we no longer see people as human beings and just as enemies, and by enemies I don't mean like that the Palestinians are my enemies because I meant the people I don't agree with are my enemies. We criticize here in the U.S., you know, political people who we really maybe hate. It's hard to remember that they're also human beings, but it's a very good exercise, I think, so that we can stay human beings. It's a hard subject to talk about because it gets contentious pretty quickly, but maybe just talk directly to the, like who are you seeing as the enemies that are being dehumanized? They're being dehumanized. The Palestinians are being dehumanized, absolutely. Dehumanization always precedes destroying somebody, and Israel is really, I'm talking about the establishment, dehumanizing the Palestinians worse than I've ever heard it before. With this current government and his bandit of right-wing people, you know, Bezelal, Smortrich, and Ben Gavir, and these people are, before it was a dog whistle about ethnic cleansing and pushing Palestinians out. Now it's Faghon, you know, they are saying it right in the open, pushing them out. So it's hard, you know, as Orly says. I think one of the problems is that in the last 50 years, after 1967, the so-called Six Day War, where Israel conquered the West Bank and Gaza and bits of the Golan Heights, but mainly the main populations were in the West Bank and Gaza, created a major shift in Israeli politics, mainly in how people, because suddenly, for the first time, more or less, there was a voice to fundamentalists. I mean, Jewish fundamentalists. There are also Muslim fundamentalists, but I'm just talking about them. For the first time, suddenly that whole biblical narrative, if you like, of, you know, I give you this land from the sea to the, from north to south and so on, that was never a discussion between 1940, or even before, but, say, 1948, when the State of Israel was declared in 1967 and that war, there was never a discussion, you know, but after that, suddenly, religion reared its voice and really, suddenly going back to the Bible as if it was, this is what we have to do, this is what God called it to do, hence, you know, all the, and it became only, this is 50 years ago, almost 1967, so it happened gradually, you know, and the first few voices were just a minority and we thought of them as the lunatic fringe, but gradually, this is what happens. I mean, Nazi Germany, just as another example, I'm not saying no situation is identical, but Hitler, you know, first reared his head in 1923 and people thought, oh, he was a lunatic, they didn't take him seriously, but some people already saw it, and so, and until it happened, so these things grow and if one doesn't nip them in the bud, they become uncontrollable and they take over. Exposure, expose the light. Do, right now in Burlington, we've had a couple of contentious city council meetings, there were folks that just tried to put a ballot item on the referendum, I mean, a referendum on the ballot, condemning Israel as a genocide state. I'm wondering how your involvement in the sister city or does the sister city weigh in on that conversation in some way? No, we had our own struggle, so I'll tell you, the first proposal was to ask for ceasefire by our city council, and I'm really disappointed. And did that come from the sister city or did that? No, no, no, from Jewish Voice for Peace and VTJP and so I'm really disappointed in our city council that they rejected to just ask for ceasefire and to me, ceasefire is not a political thing, in a political statement, it's stop the killing of children and women and men and 23,000, now it's 26,000 have been killed. And just to give you an idea of the scale, Putin's disastrous war on Ukraine has produced 10,000 killed civilians in two years or three years almost. Israel produced 26,000 in no time, 10,000 kids beyond now unfortunately and now disease and so the destruction is unbelievable of what's happening in Gaza. And so I'm disappointed in our city council not approving the genocide call more than the second one because here Minneapolis just approved ceasefire, call for ceasefire and Somerville in Massachusetts. We should have been number one in calling. Whether it changes anything or not, but symbolically Bellington is always in the forefront of these good issues. We should have approved the call for ceasefire. So as you already alluded to, really this conflict obviously goes back and gets tangled pretty quickly in religious fundamentalism. On both sides, I would say Hamas are also religious fundamentalists and they state that they want to eliminate and Hamas, Hezbollah, Daesh, ISIS. So what is your understanding of where the term how the term ceasefire became politicized in that way? Because I did watch that debate and you go like kind of scratch your head as somebody is separate from... I'm totally surprised. I mean you ask for a ceasefire to stop killing civilians and then if you want to go after Hamas or after the military do it somehow but don't destroy what really concerns me about Gaza I'm seeing the massive indiscriminate bombing I think it was like 30,000 air raids on Gaza to put it in context Gaza is 30 miles from here to the size of it from here to Montpelier 5 miles wide, most of it, 8 miles at the widest 2 million people are stuffed in it and they are from southern Israel you know what was southern Palestine they were ethnically cleansed into that area and now they are being according to Israelis and according to secret memos that got leaked really their plan is to push them into Sinai build 10 cities and then build cities to accommodate them there and I hope it does not work because that would be ethnically cleansing big time and that's what I call it and they are saying it in the open many Israeli politicians unfortunately So did you watch the conversation at the city council? Yes Did you have some... I did unfortunately because of health reasons I could not be there but the biggest disappointment was not approving the call for ceasefire there was nothing attached to it just ceasefire, call for ceasefire and they could not come up with it and now we should be ashamed because Minneapolis have approved it much bigger city and I don't know if the current mayor is still of Minneapolis because I know she was a friend of Mayor Weinberger I don't know if she's still the mayor but I'll have to check on that and Somerville in Massachusetts I think others are coming but we should have been number one on ceasefire there was nothing attached to it Well it did become, I mean there was a quick there was a narrative that turned pretty quickly around that that had to do with a couple of things one a lack on the left of condemning the acts of Hamas at the beginning and so there's a sort of a story there that is you know there wasn't a quick enough condemnation of what Hamas was doing and then into this idea that if you're calling for a ceasefire you're basically supporting the continued war of Hamas and so again like where is that who's generating that that story so that we can't that we have to hide behind words like this is too complicated to talk about It's not complicated Orly do you have thoughts on that? It shouldn't be complicated I agree with Musa that it shouldn't be complicated but it is because nothing is nothing is that simple and I think there was a huge fear I mean one example I'm not saying it's there there seems to be a huge fear here amongst Jewish people a fear of anti-Semitism and the fact that no one raised the voice after the Hamas killings and taking captives and whatever they did but then suddenly the moment Israel attacked suddenly there was condemnation so the call for ceasefire was perceived as we are only criticizing one side and not the other because a ceasefire was seen as something that would be to Hamas's advantage and not to Israel's except of course that's stupid because they got some captives out I'm not saying that I agree but I'm trying to understand where it's all coming from there is a genuine fear the fear is either justified or not depending I mean there's racism we know racism exists there's anti-Semitism it exists but that doesn't mean to say that anyone who criticizes what Israel does is by definition anti-Semitic it's partly Israel's fault this conflation of anti-Semitism and anti-Israel because when Israel set itself set itself up as a state a Jewish state it claimed to represent Jews all around the world and by forming that connection it could then say oh well if you're criticizing Israel you're criticizing all Jews but the fear is genuine here and it's very difficult to argue against fear because it comes from a feeling inside that's in red in you and no logic will... and there is anti-Semitism but that has nothing to do with what Israel is doing well the West Bank as well and the mass bombings of Gaza so you know to me the people-to-people relationship in Burlington has about six different sister cities around the world and the people-to-people relationship seems like the place that you would start you know Musa and I are closer in many ways than some of my best American friends we eat the same food we like the same food and you know people-to-people is also eating together is a better way to break everything by breaking bread together and we know... I know his village I may have never been there specifically but you know he knows there's an understanding there that could not come with somebody who's never been there or lived there for a while anyway and is there... have you seen interest in the sister city rise as this conflict becomes? Hello, but for sure it goes on now we have a couple people new teacher you know from Essex Junction who really wants to do things and we have a new woman who is the one who asked for Brave little state program to do something about the sister city so she's gonna come and join us so you know it's slowly but surely you know we need more everybody's welcome we want to get involved and it's the red camera in the middle there folks do want to get involved in the sister city how would they tell them how to get involved? We meet first Monday of the month at the Miller Center which is close by at 6 o'clock at 6 o'clock but check because we had the last couple meetings cancelled but February 1 February 1 is on so anybody's welcome because it seems that there's 1600 people that signed a petition to get a question on the ballot there are people that are interested in this issue locally and do you think this is a good way for them to connect? Absolutely I really believe otherwise I'll tell you the disappointing part is oh we haven't produced peace by being a sister city but we cannot give up on that objective we just have to keep working on it because if we had the illusion from day one that this is gonna go smoothly or resolve peace we would have been disappointed a long time ago so the moral of the story is we just have to keep working on it and I really believe it takes you know like what happened in South Africa it took a lot of pressure also from outside good friends to say you've got to transform from an apartheid state to a state for everybody and Israel is here is my belief the Israelis and the Palestinians their destiny is intertwined and there is no way they can get rid of each other so the best way is to really stop that system that they are entangled with where one group has all the rights and the other group has zero like the occupied territories 5 million people between Gaza and the West Bank they have no rights whatsoever and the Palestinians in Israel who are citizens have not exactly equal rights because it's by nationality anyway that's a long discussion the best way is to like as Hagai Matar says there never was a military solution to this the solution that always has been there in front of us is by getting rid of the occupation the apartheid system and the siege of Gaza and live as equals and I agree he really said it you know I was reading I have the statement here I said this is exactly what I believe I will not deviate from it I believe there is a good future for both Israelis and Palestinians we just have to produce it with the help of friends from outside so we are looking for transformation not eliminating anybody or any group transformation of a system that is not working and producing incredible violence and misery for everybody you know the one thing I want to mention about fundamentalism on both sides Hamas Netanyahu especially but even before Netanyahu really nurtured Hamas because they wanted a split the Palestinian leadership was always secular the ones in the west bank but before that they were always secular and he really nurtured that split so it's always there who's the leadership here and they are not my type and I believe in secularism and inclusive system but Israel really nurtured the Hamas deal and allowed money to come in to support them and all of that so it's not clear how one system developed it's what's clear is there was help by Netanyahu and company and Orly do you have that similar perspective about a secular and I guess a state of equal citizens Palestinians Israelis Oh absolutely I think it would be a great thing if there could be I think it's the only way forward really I think it's people are talking about two states solution that might have been possible once but it's almost impossible now and what actually even in the 20s and 30s there were people who envisioned one state two nations like a federation basically like the European federation you keep your culture you know and certain so local laws or like the US in a way you have your local laws but then there's an overall head of the federation if you like that looks after things like I don't know security and whatever but everybody's nationality or ethnicity or religion is respected and free movement between within this federation between the state of Palestine state of Israel under this federation there would be free movement and people could go back and forth and work wherever they want so there wouldn't be that and that's really it's a very small area in the end but size of Vermont I mean it's so small with 10 million people in that area or however many there are 14 14 with Gaza yeah I meant with the West Bank it's you know so I think so I think that's the only hope that's the only hope and maybe it'll happen but probably I wish I was as optimistic as Musa I wish I know that personality and that's not mine I know I wish you all could be here so I want to thank you both for joining us because this has what did you say it's complicated but it doesn't need to be quite so complicated and I wish you all could feel the optimism of Musa in particular because it really is commendable and thank you for joining us and you've all gotten a little bit out of this and if you want to learn more about the Burlington sister city program or any of the seven different sister city programs I think there's information on the screen, the website that you can go visit and also we have a Facebook page oh great, on Facebook Burlington Bethlehem you have to work on it and if you know somebody in a rod to make a connection thank you for joining you're welcome