 A strategy specialist who designs and develops WordPress websites for people who love their online business but hate their websites. Sees here for those who are tired of fitting into everyone else's mold, those who are rebelling against Silesia online marketing, those who want a website that takes your customer on journey and allows you to solve the problems and problems of your research. The straightforward device has been featured as WordCamps, Sword to Success magazine, and Pittsburgh Biz TV shows. She's presented organizations large and small to share her love for website creation and passion for making the process simple. When she's not teaching small business owners how to create effective and client attractive websites, you can find her exploring the outdoors. She's going to the horse and buggies in her Amish town or in the land of Class 1. To learn more about LeadJoseph, you can discover how a solid WordPress process can help you win in your clients, win in your client projects, this is LeadJoseph.com. Okay, we're ready to start. So, I'm not sure what the official title of this because it was supposed to be clients from hell and they've changed it. So, we'll just go with not so ideal clients at WordCamp Pittsburgh. So, today we're going to be talking about who it is that you want to work with. So, when I was a teenager, 13, 14, my grand pulled me aside, a little Polish woman who would not say too much but just enough. And she said, you know Lee, there's two types of people in your life. They're those who will support you and lift you up and there's those who will bring you down. And it is up to you to decide who you're going to keep and let go. Being a teenager, I don't think I listened to a word but for some reason I knew it was important enough to put back in that brain bank and eventually I would need it. So, many years later I started my business and I started working with five clients and then ten clients, a hundred clients and more. And that last line, it's up to you who you will keep and let go kept resonating with me. Because I had some pretty great clients but I had a lot of not so ideal clients. And what I did was restructured my business based on who I wanted to keep and who I decided needed to be let go. And so, today we're going to talk about your ideal clients, your not so ideal clients and what happens to those who are maybe okay but slowly start to turn into the clients from hell. So, I'm Lee Drozak. I'm a digital strategist. I've been in business over ten years. I'm a digital geek who also is a part time RVer and I live in a small Amish town. So, let's talk about the ideal clients and the not so ideal clients. A lot of times we think that the process starts when you sign on the dotted line and hopefully get that deposit ahead of time and they become your clients. But really it begins with the very first touch. You need to set the expectations. You need to tell that client what is important to you just as much as what is important to them. You need to have a deep understanding of who your perfect client is. You know the who, the what and the why. Why are they seeking you out? What can you provide them? But more importantly you need to define the values of your business. What is that boundary line that you will not let anyone cross? What is it that will keep you or keep the joy in your business of a joyful business? You need to understand the mind of the clients so that you can give them what they need. But on the same token you need to make sure that you set it so that they don't get on your very last nerve. And how do you do that? By designing a vetting process. So the client relationship actually starts with the very first touch. And you have to determine how are you going to structure that first touch and then go from there. So I created a vetting process that uses a couple of tools that I have found have been really helpful in setting the bar with how the rest of the client relationship goes. So first of all I don't take any phone calls because being a strategist, designer and developer when I'm in the middle of my zone I don't want to be interrupted by a phone call because it takes too much time to regroup from that. So I have an appointment system and if you can't set an appointment with me then I probably won't work with you because that's the first way that they're crossing my boundaries. What I did was I created an intro packet and so my intro packet is not a welcome packet. My intro packet is what are my office hours? What is my communication style? What is my work style? How is it that I define what's important to me? And what I did was I gathered this up and I put it in a PDF and anybody who sets an appointment with me when the appointment is confirmed and I use acuity and I use acuity because I can set a multiple of different appointments plus I can send tailored responses to whatever that appointment type is. So when they book an appointment and when they get a reminder they have this thing in there that says hey by the way here's my intro packet that explains my work style and my business values please take a moment to download it and review it and when we have our appointment clarify anything that isn't important. I found that by calling attention to this they already know these are things that are important to me and they need to be important to you to work with me and this has kind of weeded out a lot of the needy clients versus the not so needy clients. And I know it's really hard when you're kind of starting a business because sometimes you need to work with everybody but at least this allows you to set the bar to begin with. Basically you have to determine what's important to you and you have to hold your ground on it. So the next thing that I do is I have a face-to-face or a virtual face-to-face conversation that I basically call my jive time. I need to know if we're going to jive. If we can communicate, if we can talk, if you're on the same understanding level as me. Well the reason that I do a face-to-face or a virtual is because I want to see expressions because a lot of times people will talk the talk but they tell you what they think you want to hear or they tell you what they think that you think they want to hear. So I need to see do they look confused? Do they kind of look a little disturbed by some of the questions that we're having because in my face-to-face I not only ask them questions about their projects I ask them the red flag questions. Have you ever worked with a designer before? If they say yes I'll be like, you know, how many? Or how did that relationship go? And I actually had someone one time say I've worked with six designers and I have yet to find anybody who can work up to my standards. And I was like okay this isn't going to go well but let me ask a couple more questions. So I know going in what the parameters are, what the red flags are and sometimes it's as simple as it's a project that I don't think that I can take on or maybe that I can find someone better to do or maybe it's just not in my realm of what I want to do. And sometimes it's just that I don't want to work with a micromanager who I know is going to just be too demanding and take up way too much of my time and not respect the things that I've set for my business. It's a gut check. It really is a gut check conversation. So when you have that conversation then you have to make the decision yes or no. Well the yes's are really easy. You get along with the client, you want to work with them, you get the contract signed, you move them to the next phase. But what happens to the no's? Because some people when you tell them no they can get a little mean spirited or they can bad talk you. So I have what I call an exit plan. And an exit plan isn't just for firing a client or firing a team member. An exit plan also is how do you say no in a respectful manner. How do you say no so that you turn them away but it's more of they have to make the decision of not working with you rather than you saying I don't want to work with you because I know this is going to be really difficult for me. So it happens to be in my business I have three different scenarios and one is maybe they thought they were ready to switch from Wix to WordPress but then they kind of are hesitant and they don't want to and I'll be like look I really appreciate I'm all for doing what works for you but here's the thing I design in WordPress let me give you a couple people who I know work with that platform would you like me to make the introduction or give you the information. So I am saying no but by saying look I respect your decision to stick with that it's just not me it's not what I work with. The second scenario is they might not be ready to start that project. A lot of website design is planning and making sure all the ducks are in a row. So I might have someone who comes to me who doesn't have the copy that they need and I would say to them look I really would love to work on your project with you but here's the thing I think you really need to hone your messaging and your content I have a couple people that I partner with I can bring them in to kick this project off is this an avenue you want to explore or would you like me to give them your name and number and you reach out to them. So I'm still saying I'm interested in the project but you're not quite there yet. And then there's the people who they have hit every red flag and I am like there is no way on God's green earth I am working with them but I don't want to tell them that so usually what I do is say you know your project sounds pretty interesting but I'm nine months booked out and it sounds like you need a website yesterday so let me give you a couple resources to help you pick maybe the perfect person that would work with you. I don't usually refer anyone because if I don't want to work with them I know my friends don't want to work with them either so I'm still sending them away but I'm letting them think I'm too booked out and you need this yesterday so if it's that important you need to find somebody else. So the whole idea is to say no without really saying no so that you send them on their way feeling like they were empowered to make the decision not to work with you because you never know who is going to be a referral source for you you never know who is going to send you that next paying client that is ideal so we've said no and then we've said yes so what happens to the ones that we think are ideal we need to keep them that way and what we need to do is we need to get our clients to feel like partners we need to make them think that we are invested in their business as they are in ours and vice versa so what I usually do is when I do my kickoff call I get to know their back story why are you in business how did you get started how did you get to the point where you are these are all things that are going to help me to design the project to begin with but they're also little tidbits of information that I can use if I ever have to diffuse a bad situation down the road I also ask them like what do you do in your spare time or I do some usually do a lot of recon on them oh you have kids that play baseball my daughter played basketball I totally get what it's like to have a crazy schedule just something that allows us to connect because when you're connected with that client they get more involved and it's easier for them to not be so difficult when they think that there's a personal relationship at stake as well the second thing you have to do is not hide from them you need to be visible and present silence is not golden especially in a client-vendor relationship you need to be able to communicate you need to make sure that you're available to them so while I don't take phone calls I have special appointment slots set up for my clients so that they know if it's something that is better than an email conversation that maybe entails like 15 back and forth they can just say hey I need 10 minutes to talk to you I set up the appointment let's talk about this then or if they send me an email that says I don't really think we're on the same page I'll say you know what like I've got 15 minutes at this point of time let's jump on the phone and clear it up so that they know they have access to me and that I can be communicative the second thing is stop speaking jargon and technical you don't need to be a smarty pants they've already hired you talk in plain English a lot of times what happens especially in WordPress design and development is we're on a different plane as far as technology and terminology so I have one client and I was talking design when I think of design I think of functionality I think of usability I think of accessibility my client on the other hand thinks of design as well this is my logos and these are the colors I wanted so I use this font too so you can see we weren't even in the same ballpark at that point so what I did was I put together a list of terminology that I use and the way that I use it and I send that to the client just so that they have an idea when I talk design this is what I'm talking about when I talk development this is what I'm talking about and even the stages this is what I entail launch to be pre-launch to be, post-launch to be maintenance so that they have an understanding of where I'm coming from and then you need to be proactive and organized I'm like the queen of systems so not only do I have a client portal I have a sauna for my project management system and some people are like well that's way too much but each place has a different function and I found that by having different places with different functions the technology and organization is a little easier for my clients to use they know that they can go to my client portal to get all the resources they need the templates to submit content or maybe a PDF on how to reuse and repurpose content or they have a checklist of what all the post-launch features are there's a lot of resources that I've developed for them to keep them informed where the project management system is the task list this is what I'm doing, this is what I'm doing this is where you come in these are the dates on it all the specifics of the project and I found that by being proactive and organized it's alleviated a lot of the stress of a lot of my clients because they feel empowered to make the decision to download that resource or to follow along with the project so you want to make sure that you make it easy for them to get all the information that they need and to also not go into that one more thing phase because the one more thing phase is the never-ending project it's human nature to avoid things that make us uncomfortable and unrealistic so when a problem arises we need to be realistic instead of overly optimistic so when they say okay I just have to edit that content one more time and you're like this is like the 10th time that they've done this what the heck you already should have something in place that says you know what here's the thing I appreciate that you need to make this change but you'll notice in the contract the revisions say that you get two revisions and you'll notice on the revision doc that entails what it is I'm not saying that you can't change the content but we need to get launched and then change the content after that because we don't want this project to never launch because when your projects don't launch you don't get paid and one more things will turn into one more thing and one more thing and one more thing so you need to hit that head on because those one more things that accumulate they make a client frustrated they make a client difficult and they make them the client from hell so the other thing that you can do is give them directions and tools so like I said I have my client portal I have a ton of resources to combat how to alleviate the blocks frequently asked questions checklists PDFs things that explain all the different stumbling blocks that I have found that clients run into and it's easy to do this because you're going to have clients that are going to run into these stumbling blocks too so if you create a resource for them it might take a little time right now but in the long run it will save you tons of time and heartache and headache and it will also allow that client who is starting to become a little difficult or a little stressed or a little confused to say I'm not the only one who had this because she like has all this information on it so it must not just be me and it kind of helps to give them some structure to the project and it also allows you to set the stage for what is going to happen when it's going to happen and it gives you a point to stick to it you know I have that document because in the contract it says this or I would gladly do that for you but this is another part of the project or this might be phase 2 so by you allowing the project to happen and the client to not take control you are essentially keeping the bar high and keeping them from becoming you know not so great clients a project usually goes south because the client takes control of the project when you allow the client to take control you've lost the ability to negotiate and have that advantage so don't let it happen offer solutions but don't cave but there's always that project that will totally go south so what happens when things go south nobody wants to fire a client because clients are money projects are money they pay us we're in business to make money so you have to determine is this a challenging project or is this a challenging client a challenging project with a good client can have a really good outcome if you start to think outside the box and think differently we're a challenging client with even the simplest project will be like nails on a chalkboard it's no matter what you do it's not gonna happen they're not gonna be happy so you have to determine is it time to fire this client there's a phrase higher slow and fire fast so I always remember that fire fast and the first thing I ask myself is is the client actually the problem have I exhausted all of the solutions to make them happy and to keep this on task then I have to look at the big picture is am I losing money is this client costing me money to keep this project going is this something that I want to continue to do am I paying people and I'm not getting paid myself or am I in the red am I in the black what is going on bad clients are always unhappy customers so you have to figure out is this time to cut the cord and fire fast and a lot of times it is yes because it doesn't matter what you do it doesn't matter how you alleviate it they're not going to be happy and happy people unhappy people are bad clients so don't just rip the bandaid off like the exit strategy that we started with we need to have an exit strategy at this point and we want to part ways respectfully because chances are that there's already a ton of tension right now and it's not going to get any better and the first thing that you want to do is you want to address the issues but restate them and reframe them because you don't want them bad-mouthing you to other potential clients don't insult them make them part of the decision again make them part of the decision to say I can't work with you I'm done working with you you're on my last nerve and nothing I say or do is going to be good enough so what I do is I created a script and I follow that script to a T because I'm good off the cuff until it comes to that difficult decision of firing a client because it doesn't matter whether you do it once five times or twenty times it is not an easy thing to do because we're not cold-hearted and we know that there's usually underlying issues to that so what I do is I say look we need to have a ten minute conversation about your project can we talk at you know and I make sure that I schedule the time within the like day or two like I don't put it off I don't want to put it off I need to get this behind me and I say you know it seems like we haven't been able to do our job to keep you as a happy customer and then I go into my script so I say like look I'd love to say that while I followed our process it is generally a good fit that most of our clients happen to like but clearly we can't live up to that and I'm really sorry about that so I already set the tone by saying look what I've had work for other people obviously it's not working for you I really apologize for that but what I've learned over the years is that when clients feel like they're not being well served it's best for them to begin working with someone else so I'm setting the stage to say I know we're not and they already know this too together maybe it's time you move on and then I flesh out the details of kind of what I feel went wrong maybe we can't get the vision that you're trying to convey or maybe you need something different whatever it is and then say we made all the changes that you've requested but we still feel at this point like there's something off here and so in light of that we think you would best be served if you found another designer developer strategist whatever the role is that you're providing with them and then I always finish it with you know what I'm going to personally oversee the gathering of your files and assets because I want them to know I've already worked for you you are not getting your deposit back I will give you the assets that you paid for but that's going to be where it ends there and so you can give it to the next person maybe they can use it to start off your project so you're not starting from square one and then I say you know what like if you have any questions we'll answer them for you so it's not like I'm just shutting them out I'm giving them some options once I send them on their way and then I say best of luck to you on your journey again if there's anything we can do we will certainly help you anyway that we can't so it kind of leaves the firing like okay we can't work with you and so you need to make the decision to leave this and we're going to give you everything and we're going to help you as much as you can but that's it we're done nine times out of ten the client who feels probably the same way we do is a little relieved like we and they didn't have to make that difficult decision we made it we put the ball back in their court and they're like okay you know how do we move forward to getting the files blah blah blah blah and the conversation goes that way and then we end on not such a bad note because we need to remember that bad customers or bad clients aren't necessarily bad people I mean there might be a couple that are bad people but for the most part it's just that their behavior usually has nothing to do with you it could be that they weren't as ready as they thought they would be or maybe they thought they were going to go one direction and they're changing to another and it doesn't affect the job that you did for them it usually is they're not ready for what you have and the value that you can bring so you really you know you kind of try to need to remember walk in their shoes with every decision that you made you're never not going to have a bad client you're never not going to have another bad client but it's what you do to address it so that you know instead of having five bad clients the next time you're only going to have four or the next time you're only going to have two or every occasionally you're going to get one and you know how to combat them so I hope that the information has been helpful to you and I have a lot of resources available that I use that might not necessarily work for you but for the vetting I use utility I use Dropbox for my PDFs because as they're living breathing documents as I work with people so it's easy to update them and not have to update another link I just upload the updated version to Dropbox I use Asana for my project management system I found that for my people that's the easiest for them to use I do use the paid version but the free version worked for me for a long long time I have a client portal which I use clientportal.io I scored that deal on AppSumo that's why I use that it seems to be the best for me and then for my face to faces I either use Skype or Zoom because I found that those are the most versatile for most people usually one person has used either one or the other so if you have any questions for me or you need any clarification I'm here to answer them and if not I will be at lunch if you have something maybe private that you don't want to discuss in an open forum I will take that question too so you mentioned earlier that clients who won't provide you content for their website and how you are strategy for dealing with that would be oh I have people I could put you in touch with to help you with this do you have any advice on how you could get people to give you content so the question is if you have, if someone needs content or even another type of vendor whether it be graphic artists or not and you don't have those resources what do you do, how do you find them so you find a community whatever communities you're in and you start forming partnerships so what I do is every once in a while in the groups that I'm active in in my masterminds do you know any good copywriters do you know any graphic artists do you know any designers I want to schedule a coffee date with them so that we can have a conversation and then I meet with those people and we work on a deal so if I were to hire you what would the subcontract rate be or if I send someone to you what's your referral rate I will tell you this now if somebody says I don't give referral rates unless they are so kick-ass they're the last on the list so you want to find a way to get partnerships that will help your business and make you money and you just have to find them it takes a lot of work that's probably one of the hardest things is to find people and keep good people but once you start to have that referral network it seems to build on itself but I always start with my internal networks who's in my mastermind group I go to the Facebook groups and I'm most active in who do you know for this so go to the groups that you're already part of and then if you can't find anybody there then kind of go outside of that anyone else when you're trying to find somebody like that you send them like a project to do that's maybe for a personal site or something before you put your client reputation on the line with somebody you haven't used before so the question is what do I do for vetting them so what I usually do is I send them one of my projects if it's a graphic artist hey I need this graphic for a blog post if it's an article a lot of times copywriters will have a portfolio of writing that they've done I also will go and read their blog if they don't have a blog or I'll look at the writing on their website and if I don't think that it fits with me I still might have a conversation with them because sometimes we get busy and we're like the collar's children where shoes are always the last so I make sure that I do as much vetting but I usually send them my own project first so that I can see because what some people's standards are aren't necessarily mine and also you don't need to do individual people there are different so if I have a smaller project and I need a logo for there's a site called logo in 30 minutes logoin30minutes.com and it's like $39 for a logo and if you just need a basic logo for someone who's starting out they turn it around like that they are really really good so it doesn't necessarily need to be one person it can be a company like that that's what I do is I kind of just feel them out and vet them on my own before I send them or if I have somebody who's new I will get one of my long term clients and say hey I'm testing out this person can I send that project can I send that page copy to them and give me your honest feedback so fine too if you have some good clients that really that you can have open dialogue with test them on those people too where you might get a lot of referrals from people who preface it with this is a really tough one can you take that on and this person refers to you a lot of good business but this occasional bad one comes along what's your general thought in terms of saying yes or no to that because of the referral relationship the question is if you have a referral and it maybe isn't bad how do you deal with it so I did have this problem come up I had a client and she sends me a ton of referrals and she sent me one and this woman was difficult and against better judgement I said I'm going to go ahead and take it but I had a conversation with her first I was like look I don't know if I can work with her like you might need to run on interference I know this client is important to you and it got really bad and so I was like look I got to fire her and we have a conversation with her first so I make sure that I keep whoever has referred to me in the loop because that person knows that you're going to occasionally come across somebody who's difficult I had a referral even call it he's like look I know this person is going to be tough but I'm doing all the copy all I need you to do is the design can you give me a couple mock ups we'll pick it I'll rein him in so we knew ahead of time I knew that I wouldn't have to deal with the crap that came along with it he was going to deal with it so I think you have to do every scenario on its own but always if you have a problem with someone who's referred to you let that person know don't just let the relationship get bad because this is a good referral source and don't be afraid to call them and say hey look I talked to your person like I don't think this is going to work I can't deal with them I'm going to say cool no problem I totally get it I respect you as a business owner and a business or you know what let's try and figure out a way this person is a really good client of mine and I want you to work on their project so I like put the ball back in their court almost you mentioned some red flags earlier in the presentation can you add on to that what are some other red flags that you go oh so a couple the question is red flags if we are having a conversation and it's hard to even communicate I know that that's going to be a problem because if I can't communicate you at the very beginning of the project I don't think I'm going to be able to communicate with you down the road some of them might be too that I look at their aesthetic and I'll say you know what like I see what you have are you open to updating your logo I'm like look they're not going to be flexible I just worked on a project from a guy he came from corporate he is now retiring going on his own and I was like look we need to talk about your logo he's like I'm going to tell you right now I know my branding sucks I did it myself I was like just trying to get this thing off the ground whatever you can do I would really appreciate it so just kind of listen to things that you think are going to be potential problems and either ask follow up questions usually mine are if we have trouble communicating if I ask them a question and there's no flexibility or if they worked with tons of other people not even designers like I've worked with ten copywriters and they just don't get my vision or I've worked with four graphic artists and I have yet to find one so then I dig a little deeper like is it that they're really four crappy are you trying to hire them all from Fiverr and getting quality graphics for five dollars what is the problem and how can we figure out if it's you or if it's you know some other situation or scenario that was a perfect one you just mentioned how do you get the clients that understand they have to pay for content development that they don't have is that my first client way back in the day they had a workshop it was just starting out one business card it's an IT business and that's the end all this content so no domain name no email no email and I've been working with them for over ten years and they decided that when people come in they want to go a different way develop all this stuff so the question is how do we get them to invest so first of all here's what I say to people would you expect one of your customers or clients to hire you and not pay you anything and they're like no and then I say okay so if you're not willing to invest in your business why should any of your clients invest in your business and then I think just by those statements the light bulbs go off and so usually what I do a logo, content I price everything out individual so that they can see this is what it's going to cost and if you have to cut corners somewhere you have to figure out where to cut the corners and if you're not willing a logo if they have terrible branding and they're not willing to invest in it I have the difficult conversation like look I thought I could work with you but if you're not going to make the investment in your branding I'm not doing your website because your website is a reflection of me even though it's aesthetic it's still a reflection of me because I can make this thing so user friendly and functional but if it doesn't look appealing it doesn't matter if somebody doesn't want to invest in copywriting I'll say you know what I'm going to put the copy on there that you have or I'll put dummy content in there but know this you're not going to get SEO ranking juice from this understanding what you're trying to say so I give them if you don't invest in this this is going to be the outcome if you want to spend some money now and invest in your business then this will be the outcome but I think the thing that has always worked for me is if you're not willing to invest in yourself why would anybody else invest in you this is the value that I bring if you don't appreciate it then we have a problem we need to talk about it and figure out whether or not how much time do you spend educating the tech so I so educating depends on the size of the site so if it's a small site I have a lot of resources I've amassed a lot of resources and at first people thought I was crazy for creating all that they were like why are you giving all that free stuff now I'm like you know what like here I have a resource go ahead and check that out and if you have questions so my time educating has really been cut down by having the resources available sometimes it's sending them to a blog post sometimes I'll create a video for them because I think if I create a video for them they have this question nine times out of ten somebody else is going to have that same question so I always create content with it in mind that this is going to be usable somewhere down the road and then by making it available to my people as just an added bonus to them it's value and it kind of appeases them and I don't have to spend as much time with them so even for the training I have the plugin video user manual and I think there's WP101 that is basically how to use your WordPress website they keep it all up to date I'm like hey look you have a video tutorial bank in your dashboard here's where you find it go ahead and watch that and if you have any questions then please come ask me even something as small as that will cut your individual training time down so just look at places that are taking you a lot of time and say how can I redo this so that I don't have to spend the individual time I can put something together to give to my clients as a resource bank anyone else what do you do to kind of control the work you've already done so that you don't get the call that hey great news my nephew's into the internet and he's going to do our website now and you get booted yes I do so the question is how do you combat the my nephew as a website designer and I'm going to let him maintain the site so I have two things in my contract I have a maintenance clause that says if you use us for maintenance here's what you'll get if you don't use us for maintenance and you use somebody else the onus is on them and then I have a third party vendor clause and the third party vendor says if you have a third party come in and do anything to the site I am not responsible when they break it I will gladly fix it for you it is going to cost you and I if it's unusable that's on you and I did this because I actually had a client who had their VA come in and do something and she's like I think she broke my site well thank God I had a backup so that was a good thing but I was like look you're going to have to pay me and she's like well you created the site and I was like yeah and I kind of had to negotiate that and immediately after that I was like I'm putting a third party clause because now when it happens your contract it states that this is a service I do provide but it's like you being a new client I have to start from square one to determine what happened and why it happened so I have at the end of a project I call closeout and the closeout is I give them a document with all of their passwords all of their logins how to access their site FTP, cPanel, everything and so I say you can either use I use that because I have someone do maintenance for me so I use that document if they're going to stick with me for maintenance or they can send it to somebody else and then in drawfox I put all of their assets any images that we created for them if the logo is in there or the branding is in there any content, even when they provide us the content we make a copy of it, put it in that folder and then I make a complete backup of the file, a full site backup and a database backup put it in there and I send it to them and I say please keep this in a safe place make sure you download it because we only maintain the folder for 30 days if you don't continue with us here's everything you need for your site and oh if something happens in the meantime usually the server or the host has a backup but I wouldn't rely on it, here's the safest bet for you and then they can either take it and have somebody else move it or they can do whatever but if we are ending the relationship and they are moving on to somebody else we give them the tools at that point that we sever or close out and then we kind of have it in case something happens but we're not responsible if you want to a lot of people have employees or teams if you want to do that, that's fine but here's the parameters of that so you kind of set yourself up to say we would love to do maintenance for you but we understand if you have a team member here's everything you're going to need and then we kind of say put it in a safe place because after so many days it's not accessible and then if they come back to us we were like do you have the information that we gave you and nine times and I'm like no I forgot to download it I usually keep my stuff for like six months because if something is going to happen it's going to happen in that six month period and then I get rid of it it's not like 30 days and it's gone so at least I have a starting point anyone else it's lunchtime thanks everyone have a good rest of the afternoon