 Well, according to some estimates, the data center industry consumes approximately 1% to 1% of the world's power today. Wow, did everyone know that? Number two, cooling alone is accounting for over 40% of the total energy that's getting used in a data center. When you think about that, together, power and cooling, they're arguably some of the most expensive and perhaps the most challenging topics that are facing these data center owners and operators. On top of that, think about things like our growing data demands from AI, which we're going to hear quite a bit about today, all the way to data analytics and high performance, high density computing, all of these in addition to rising energy costs and the pressure companies, there's a lot to consider here. So what does that mean for all of us on the panel and out there in the digital sphere? What it really means is that making sustainable innovations in power and cooling for data centers, it has to be a critical topic for all of us. And that's why we're here today. So I'm thrilled to say that today, I am joined by an amazing panel of specialists in the data center industry. All of these folks just happen to be authors in an upcoming book that we have, greener data, volume two, it's going to be dropping Earth Day 2024, perhaps some of you know greener data volume one as well, which was an Amazon bestseller. All of these folks are authors in their own right and will be featured in that book. And this is a bit of a preview of what you'll be able to read in that book. Today, we're going to focus in on one particular chapter of it and it's really focusing in on power and cooling innovations to shrink the carbon footprint for our network infrastructure. All right, we got all that out of the way, we understand the importance of it now. I am thrilled to announce our panelists here. So I'd like to go around our virtual table for some introductions. Nicole, I'm going to start with you. If you could tell us your name, your role, a little bit about your organization and then why this particular topic is so critical to you. Great, thanks Laurel and happy to be here. My name is Nicole Derkseide. I'm the global category director for our large diesel product. That's everything above 600 kilowatt. So we are focused in the backup power generation space and Kohler power systems is a world leader for generators and complete power solution packages. This matters to me because we want to provide backup power and add that extra layer of resilience and we want to do it in the most sustainable way possible. Thank you. I hand it off to Jonathan. Same questions for you. Hi, good morning, good afternoon for most. Jonathan Gibbs, I'm the SVP of product delivery for Prime. Just about 15 years of experience. I lead Prime's physical infrastructure design, procurement, construction and sustainability efforts globally. Right now we're Prime as itself for a global hyper scale wholesale provider. We take a data driven approach to acquisition development and operations for our facilities. Our company's core, our mission is to go to be the go to infrastructure solution partner for our customers base. You know, we currently have two gigawatts of critical infrastructure in development right now. We're trying to do the United States to Europe grow and it's been time and I'm really excited to talk with you all today. Thank you, Jonathan. Kim, would you like to introduce yourself? Of course. Thanks, Laurel. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening from Finland. So I am a managing director of Burn Global Finland and I've been involved in building up the first hyperscale level climate neutral certified data center in the Nordics. And I'm running the operations of Burn Global which is based out of London. Iceland and Finland. So I'm focusing on Finland and utilizing our benefits of a cool climate. Already we're starting to see the autumn here in August. So happy to be here. We're happy to have you. Bill, I have you next on our list but you introduce yourself. Absolutely. Hi everybody. I'm Bill Klayman. I am the program chair for the Atcom data center world conference addubing editor to Data Center Knowledge and Data Center Frontier and board member investor over at a really fun little AI machine learning GPT style architecture platform firm called Neuro. And I'm just genuinely excited to be here because the conversations that we're gonna be having is going to be a spot on with everything that's happening in our industry and my experience coming back from four years working in a very large co-location switch and my experience in the data center now transitioning over into this wild space of GPT architectures and really cool images and drawings that can be generated by just a few people typing in some words is pretty epic. And what I'm excited to talk about here and kind of jumping in with everybody on this call is all gonna impact us and certainly it's gonna be very topical. Now, Laura, before I pass it back to you, don't be shy. I'm looking at this chat window here. We all love an interactive audience and I've been responding like a million people on here so type in some questions or some comments. I think you guys are a talkative group. Don't be shy. Thank you. Very nice job. Melissa, would you like to introduce yourself? Thanks so much. Hi everyone. I'm Melissa Riali Elliott. I do content marketing with GP blocks. So we build and operate tier three data centers throughout the Southeast along with the connectivity and fiber solutions to further build digital infrastructure. And today just wanting to showcase the ways that our data centers are optimized for energy efficiency, how we're using innovative cooling techniques and we may even get into some utility-based renewable energy conversation, I hope so. And this is all with the end goal of ensuring efficient, reliable and sustainable operations. Great. And last but certainly not least, Maxie Reynolds, would you introduce yourself? Yes, Maxie Reynolds. I'm the founder and CEO of Subsea Cloud. We build, deploy and maintain Subsea data centers. And God, it's important for us to be here in a lot of ways. I think as a newcomer to the telecoms industry, we sort of see a lot of incremental improvements and like comfortable actions taken to try and solve something that I don't believe can be sort of solved effectively that way. So it's important for us just to grow our presence in the arena and sometimes in a country variant way. And for the sake of discourse and our own footprint, and then GSE is just a really good way to keep your finger on the pulse. So happy to be there. Thank you, Maxie. And as you can see for everyone, we have a nice diverse panel here. So I think we're gonna get a terrific diversity of questions and answers here too. And as Bill said, we do have a chat window open. So feel free to ask your questions all along the way. All right, with that said, let's jump right in to our first question. And my first question, Bill, I'm gonna go right back over to you. So my question to you is really just how critical is the power and cooling challenge for data center owner and operators? Really, what's at stake for here? So, you know, I think I'm gonna start with actually sharing some findings from the latest AFCOM State of the Data Center report. And these are expanded findings. So I literally just got some of these and I'm able to share them with you. So everybody on here is getting a sneak peek. Get your LinkedIn numbers out. And if you wanna start tweeting the stuff or it's not tweeting anymore, right? It's X-ing. I don't know. Anyway, so in one of the latest reports literally just came out, we asked the question from a very wide array of folks, like what is your cooling capacity? I'm gonna read this out to everybody. So hang with me for a second. Almost half of all respondents report their cooling solutions meeting all their needs. Hang on a second. 46% came back and said that their cooling solution is meeting all their requirements. Time out for a second. That means that 54% of our respondents are either struggling, persistently running out of cooling capacity or actively looking to meet or looking into new systems to meet scale and demand. So we're entering this market that is requiring higher density compute, new types of architectures and new types of requirements where we have to design in a different kind of fashion to support entirely new different kinds of workloads. And I'd be silly if I didn't at least mention the 800 pound GPT generated gorilla in the room, which is GPT, which is really, really changing. And this is not a curve. This is not a bell. This is literally here to stay because it's going to fundamentally change the way you and I interact with data. The way we ask questions of data and get now conscious answers back. But I want everyone to kind of think about something really, really quick. A single Google search can power in a 100 watt light bulb for 11 seconds, consuming a three watt hours of energy. One time, if you ask chat GPT a question to make you a fun story about Paw Patrol and Batman or something, you are actually going to be running a session that is 800 to 1000 times more powerful than a Google search. And this is research done by our team. We create our own large language models. And if you're thinking about how many, well, how many light bulbs is that? Well, to put it in context, a single question can charge this phone 60 times. One time, one time asking chat GPT a question, you can charge it 60 times. So obviously we have to rethink how we design around power, how we design cooling, how we design infrastructure that can support all of this because it is going to be a fundamental aspect in terms of how we create critical infrastructure in the future because certainly this isn't going away. So it is up to us to create a future because these kinds of solutions, these new generative AI kinds of architectures, they're really not going away. Now these numbers that I'm throwing out, they are not designed to scare you. They're designed to inspire you, to think outside the box. One more statement. One of my mentors, Peter Gross, and I hope he's listening, if he's not gonna send this to him, he taught me a really interesting statement about our industry. The data center industry loves innovation as long as it's 10 years old. We don't have 10 years. We don't have 10 months, right? This stuff is here right now that we need to get out of our little comfort box and start to look at new kinds of designs and architectures that will help us support what our customers are demanding. Yeah, Bill, you're dead on there. And I'd support that by saying as well, we're actively looking at not only trying to better the design to serve the customer's needs, higher GPU loads, bigger densities and things like that. Those have been talked about have been coming and to your point, they are here and those metrics are fantastic. Not only are those the challenges we're trying to face, but we're in a pretty hard spot when it comes to the infrastructure outside of the building as well. So we've got power constraints pretty much all over the US. We're actively looking at trying to reduce our carbon footprint not only when it comes to constructing these data centers, developing accounting practices inside and outside of the construction of those data centers, but looking further in terms of these utilities and taking an active role in supporting them as well. When it comes to cooling now, to your point, not only do we have higher loads in the data centers, but we have all time high temperatures. So we're not in the 50 year range anymore. We're actively looking at ways to be able to adapt, to look outside of what those typical normal thresholds had been and being able to scale equipment up or scale equipment down, hopefully in 10, 20 years, when we get a little bit more control over what some of the, I would call it a pandemic and an ecological or an environmental pandemic that we currently find ourselves in right now. So to your point, we're looking at ways of trying to adapt and the more we talk about things like we're doing today, the more awareness we have, it feels like the closer we'll get there. Very interesting points, both of you made. Thank you. I think that sets the tone for our conversation. Let me jump into another topic here, kind of a follow on here. I'd like to better understand the trends. So I'd like to understand what trends are you seeing in the data centers? I'm looking at it in two ways. So maybe we wanna look at the trends in regards to how our folks retrofitting existing facilities when it comes to power and cooling. But let's also take a look at what we can do for new build starting from the ground up. There's significant movement in this area. Nicole, maybe I have you start out and share from maybe a power perspective what trends you're seeing. Yeah, thank you. And right, I will focus on a power generation space and not even necessarily as touch as much into utility and available power challenge, right? Both what Bill and Jonathan spoke about are real we see, right? Those power constraints, space constraints. So what we see on the power generation side is a few things. First, we absolutely have seen a generational shift to a larger kilowatt, right? Generators as backup power. And if you go back even five years ago, right? It seemed like the sweet spot was about 2,000 kilowatt per generator and you get multiples on site. Now it's evolved to that 3,000 kilowatt generator and not only has it gotten bigger that way, but it's also many more on site because these data centers are just growing dramatically in their power consumption in that size. And even what Bill said, right? Like the chat GPTs, these GPUs are consuming enormous amounts of energy. And so we're seeing that drive to current technology, right? Not gonna innovate and innovate 10 years ago for what you want today. We're seeing that evolution. So it's gonna be curious as AI continues to evolve, what that looks like. I think the other one, right? And we're gonna touch in, right? Again, we want greener data. That's what we're here today to talk about and how do we get there? Right? New technologies do maybe carry, right? Inherently some additional risk and everybody gets really excited thinking about nuclear, thinking about hydrogen, things like that, right? But we still see that heavy reliance and demand on a backup power generator due to the known performance and the resiliency that it provides. But what we do see is, right? And the data center world really pushing on folks like us at Kohler to see what more can we do? How can we start to make it so they can have that backup generator but not have maybe as much as the environmental footprint and the impact that it's had in the past. So a few things we've seen in our industry, right? We've really pushed like renewable diesel, our hydro-treated vegetable oil, HVO or ARTI, however you wanna reference it, right? We're seeing that push and that shift in the industry to allow diesel generators that have traditionally run on fossil diesel to now run on this renewable fuel, which is from a, just from a fuel production perspective and distribution of a fuel, it's like a 90% carbon reduction compared to fossil diesel going to HVO. So tremendous impact that can happen today, right? Right now, I will admit a little bit more difficult in the United States, depending on your location. But when you look globally in other parts of the world, especially Europe, there's a lot of opportunity there. The other piece is we're even at Kohler as we look, we just launched a program called Conscious Care. And we're really starting to reset the expectations of what's required for a generator in a non-emergency situation for things like maintenance, right? So we've now pivoted that you have the ability to go to exercise your generator every four months for as little as 10 minutes. Compared to traditionally people test monthly and especially test with load, we've made that shift, right? So again, it's things that are available now to reduce that footprint and reduce that impact, but still have reliance on the traditional sources as we're also quickly, very quickly, right? Trying to come up with new solutions that are gonna revolutionize the market. That's really interesting. Melissa, I'd love to have you follow on with that from your perspective. Yeah, thank you so much. So back to, I'm gonna step back to your original question about whether we're looking and seeing friends at retrofitting existing facilities or innovating from the ground up. We fall more on the innovation from the ground up side because we build very small, highly efficient data centers using the latest equipment and technologies available. We're actually pretty young as a company. So we don't have age data centers sitting out there that aren't as efficient. So we're consuming, because of our size, far less energy than some of the power hungry giants that a lot of the industry give reputation for being. And that reduction in energy usage is to our operations are cooling or lighting and so on translates to a much lower carbon footprint and strain on the electrical grid. So we're able to maximize our resources very efficiently, not only the servers and the network equipment in this facility, but then the land and water and planetary resources that we're using as well. So by right sizing our infrastructure and building in a modular capacity as we grow from the ground up, this gives us all the control we need to reduce energy consumption, reduce emissions and resource depletion. So deep diving in some of what we're doing, power management, that's one of the areas that we're most focused on is our energy efficiency and management. In a nutshell, I think that's why we're all here today having this conversation is we can all agree that power management needs to be more efficient and cost effective. And this is a deliberate action that each of us has to take across our system designs, our operational processes, even our workforce training. And so what we're doing is adopting more energy efficient hardware and equipment and using some advanced power management tools to optimize our energy usage. So on that, that's both a design and ops case that can be made on the design side, we're doing a bunch of different modeling CFD modeling, all of this done so that our designs are working very efficiently meeting demand for customer requirements, but then also we actually have amazing PUE for the equipment that's installed because of our effort early on to size properly and the healthy equipment in a way that optimizes efficiency. So we have that on our mechanical side. On the operations side, I actually got to play a little bit in our SCADA system only yesterday to look at it as a power management tool. And so we're actively using the software to review the PUE performance and the energy use in the buildings. I can see the temperature by cabinet and we can see where things need to be efficientized and ensure that everything's optimized. Tuning in our cooling, our IT loads in the most efficient manner, so there's no wasted energy and we're running the most efficient IT load we can. Great, great. That is you're talking about the present and what Nicole is talking about is all of the options present, future, all love the diversity here. I think it would be an interesting time for us to introduce a couple of our folks specifically. Kim, I'm gonna ask you to tell us a little bit about what you are doing in Europe because I think you do have a unique approach in terms of how your organization is approaching that power and cooling. Can you share a little bit about what you're doing at Burn Global? Of course. So when we set up operations in Finland, we decided we wanted to be as sustainable as we can. So we located a site that is actually underground. So it's a network of tunnels. It's called War Era. Used to be used by the military for storing ammunition. But it's a great location for storing data because it's always cool. It's eight degrees centigrade. So the idea was that we put the servers there and we don't need to use additional power for cooling. Of course, as the density grows, you have to use power for cooling still. We decided there was some wind power plants in the vicinity. So we decided to go all in with wind at the time. At that time, it was in the range of 1% of the power production in Finland was wind. Now, during the last 10 years or so, there's been a lot of innovation in the wind. Specifically, the size of the turbines has grown from about a maximum of 100 meters to 200 meters. And the economy has kind of changed significantly. So suddenly it's become much, much more lucrative to do wind in Finland. And it's actually grown to right during the last couple of years. Last year, it grew by 75%. And it was total of 15% of the whole country's production. And in June, we were at 97% carbon-free production in the whole country. So there's a lot of stuff happening. And if you think about just before the Ukraine war, we were still importing about 10% from Russia, which then was terminated immediately. So we had a kind of energy crisis, if you will, or at least a problematic situation. But with these innovations and with this aggressive approach, the whole countries changed quite a lot. So sometimes maybe it takes a little bit of a push. So at this data center underground, we've also implemented a solar power plant on top of it. So trying to do everything as sustainably as we can. Our Helsinki data center again, we've implemented with indirect free cooling. So once again, we utilize the location benefits of being cool. Additionally, there's already a district heating grid. So as we buy 100% green energy, we're able to feed that back the excess heat into the district heating grid. However, what we do do is we convert that to, we convert the heat from air to liquid. So one of the innovations that I'm thinking about in the future that we would like to do, once we start to do more liquid cooling is to use the liquid immediately, then it's less loss. And the idea of using green power twice is so compelling that it's a very sort of positive feel for the whole industry, shall we say. So this is the kind of stuff that we're looking at in addition to the HVO that Nicole talked about, which is readily available. There's a company that does distributes nationwide so you can actually fill up your diesel cars, not every station, but if you don't have to look far, you will find it. Sounds great, fascinating area and another fascinating segment here, subsea cloud, Maxi, I would love for you to share a little bit about your equally unique approach. All right, so basically a subsea data center is a submersible container that can supply network connectivity, power and cooling functionality to the servers that are housed within. So each unit looks like a 20 foot shipping container and it can accommodate between 0.5 to 1.5 megawatts or about 800 servers or one big server just as client specific. And so each unit reduces the power consumption required by at least 40% and so the CO2 emissions by the same amount. The servers are surrounded in dielectric fluid so immersion cooling more or less. And we also co-locate with renewable generation to put the megawatts to their highest and best use case and we circumvent the storage challenges and the attenuation there. So it's mutually beneficial. And then the cooling mechanism itself is actually very simple. So it's natural convection. It's free and it's passive. So the servers go to work in the produce heat and the heat causes separations or the separation of the molecules within the fluid, the surrounding fluid. So essentially the molecules get excited and an idealized description here, the hotter or the very excited molecules surround in the servers, they flow upwards and outwards towards the walls of the tank. And this is because they have a higher density than the cooler fluid. Then the seawall cools the fluid by the walls of the unit. So the fluid then flows due to more fluid rise in and essentially it creates a natural turbulent flow. And that just, that sort of continues. And I think the natural progression or like the follow on the next logical query is, is it sustainable? Because I think we'll probably talk about Nimbism throughout this broadcast. And we sort of face a little bit of backlash because what we're doing sounds like it's wrong almost. It's sort of like, are we rubbing peer to paypal? I think that's the scene that we were. So when you place a body giving off heat into water, the water can absorb the heat without raising its own temperature. And that's ultimately the driver here. So the primary factor behind the avoidance of the water's temperature rising is to do with what's called specific heat capacity, which is the amount of heat energy required to raise the temperature of a substance by a certain amount. And what's an unusually high specific heat capacity and that to get sort of two down into the weeds. But if you compare water, which we use passively in air, which pick any data center, it takes four times as much energy to raise the temperature of water by one degree Celsius as it does to raise the same temperature or to raise the temperature of the same volume of air. So we think of air as a fluid scientifically and it's about 800 times less dense than water. So the whole characteristic of water or the property of water makes it a really good medium for dissipating heat. And then just a good example to bring it home to end here is if you imagine that you are sort of in your garden and it's very hot, so you don't live in Scotland and you're not from there. Then you sort of jump into the pool or the pool, then the pools or the pools temperature is always lower than the pool side, right? And that is because, and it's the same sunshine beating down, but that is because work and absorb a lot more energy without heating up. So that's our entire mechanism and the driver behind this. Really interesting. I mean, we've come up with amazing topics from all of you in terms of what we can do. We've got options out there. And so I guess my question is, we have amazing options out there. So my question to all of you is gonna be, what are the obstacles? So why aren't we full on in here? So what are the most common objectives to delivering these sustainable outcomes? How do we overcome them? Maxi, I'd like to start with you since we just chatted with you. What about for such, what's the obstacle? Yeah, we face very specific and particular obstacles and Bill, I've been inadvertently stealing your mentor's quote for a few years now. People want innovation so long as it's been around for 10 years. That is true. So for us, the one that we meet sort of face to face, time to time again, reductively speaking, just business to business is the innovator's dilemma. So it's a concept that essentially states that successful companies often concentrate on improving existing products and technologies to meet the demands of their most profitable customers. Essentially, they sustain earlier innovations by incremental improvements. And ultimately, it sort of blinds them to the potential of disruptive innovations, which are at least in our case, simpler and cheaper, but they initially cater to very niche markets and they're often acknowledged by these incumbents. So over time, these disruptive innovations can improve to the point where they challenge and eventually surpass the established products, but it causes industry leaders to lose market share or even fail before they can recognize that. So that's one side that we definitely come up again, just business to business again. And there's another aspect to that concept, which sees incumbents sort of unable to fight for innovation because they have shareholders that appease or they can't quite de-risk an opportunity or solution because it's sort of less attractive. And I don't actually know how to overcome that. We try and it's one on one. There's no sort of like, but it has to be sniper rifle, it's not shotgun. I hear you. Yeah. Interesting. And Bill, I'd like to send the same question over to you. What are some of these obstacles that we need to overcome? You know, it's fascinating. I recently wrote an article over on data center and knowledge, I think it was called, get off my lawn, you crazy data centers. And it was an article, sorry, Maxi, as you were taking a drink there, you're gonna get your computer missed. And it was in response to, and this is the first in my career, I went to an event and as I'm walking into the building, I look over and there's people holding signs and it was a protest against data centers being built. It was in Virginia, Northern Virginia. And me, following along with a great quote from a wonderful show called Ted Lasso, be curious, not judgmental, I went and I was curious. And I asked them questions. I'm like, you know, what's up? And after I wrote the article, several of them came back to me and they're like, Bill, we don't, you know, we don't want to be called not in my backyard. We're not these backwards folks that want to write on stone tablets any more. We understand that digital infrastructure is important, but we also feel that you're not listening to us and that you're not really following our concerns. So we're markedly moral and everybody on this call, I understand that there's always going to be technological challenges, things that we can overcome, but the really cool thing is that we are all innovative, right? Nothing that was invented was never kept up first and we love to dream, right? We will never lose our childhood sense of wonder because we all love to dream. That's what technology is all about. And the challenge here is that we have been a well kept secret for so long. Now I'm looking, well, I'm lucky enough to be in this industry for a while. I'm not adopted. I wasn't a doctor or physician or a musician or whatever. I literally have a network engineering degree and I've been in this industry for forever, but it's only been in my career that data centers went from these non-descript, you know, buildings to, hey, we want to be a part of the community like a hospital or anything else. And that's received some pushback, right? And there's been new technologies out there, things like, you know, nuclear power and all of them. And Kim, by the way, thank you for your mention about Ukraine. I was born in Kiev. By the way, happy independence day to my country. And so, you know, the challenge, even with nuclear, somebody who was around when Chernobyl happened, I'm a big fan. The questions they get as well is, where's the uranium going to be stored? How are you going to be dealing with waste? Where are the power lines going to be drawn? Who's going to pay for that? And these are really good questions, obstacles that we're experiencing. And I want everyone, the listeners on this call, all the folks on this panel, there's no answer to this. But we're behind in breaking down some of these barriers to become what I'd like to call downstream facilities, literally a part of community. So they understand that we are doing something different. We are trying to make an impact that, you know, we can't stop building this because it's not our fault. Like the people protesting it, you set up your meeting to protest on a tool that uses a data center. Like I got to explain that to you. Like we need to continue to use these platforms. The thing that we're trying to create is better outreach, try and have better meetings and better conversations with people in the community. But it's still a challenge, right? Where it's not so much not in my backyard, but please keep my backyard pretty and usable. And I want to go outside and still enjoy the air. And I understand that you're going to be my neighbor, but please be a good neighbor and don't ruin what I have. You know, it's an obstacle and it's a continued obstacle. And I don't know if it's going to go away because of things like generative AI and these new requirements and new solutions. I've been watching the chat with DMs and I'm really fortunate to have at least one of our data center partners. So this is an HPC facility, Tom. Hey, thanks for hanging out here with us from IMHPC. And the neuro platform is actively running on top of their NVIDIA architecture. And it's currently training large language models. But what these folks are doing is something really special in terms of innovation. They're trying to overcome some of those challenges by designing things like a low carbon, non-toxic cooling architecture that can handle up to 100 kilowatts per rack. Our job is to tell the communities that we're trying, that we hear them. It is an obstacle sort of for everyone. I don't have an answer, but I do have a challenge for everyone to reach out to your communities. And if you think you're doing enough, there's probably more you can do and more people that you could talk to. Again, those protesters had some really instincts to say about what they were concerned about. And those were concerns were valid and that's something that our industry needs to overcome, excuse me, certainly together. Can I add to that a little bit? Do we have some time for that? So I think there's also like another intersecting aspect of this, which is there's the people who protest and they're sort of, at least they're engaged. There's another thing which is basically, we have a huge education issue that goes against us. So worldwide, I think there's been the widespread acceptance of the sobering reality of climate change and what would be complementary to that would be to stop a lot of the misinformation and direct the type of advances needed in a shared acknowledgement of the material realities of the world, which is to say an acknowledgement that we are completely dependent on fossil fuels. It's a dependency that's increasing and not decreasing and there's just no near instant shift away from it. So the things like that we should be honest about in terms of just worldwide and within our industry. And I think we should of course, focus our attention towards this, but we can't do that with an embism as a direct of being as prolific and sort of as encumbering as it is. So we need things like nuclear, like these more people educated on that and we shouldn't lie about it. And nuclear has drawbacks that we should that's cool and we just can't achieve all the things we want to with wind and solar alone, for instance. So taking this lens to our industry, I would say modular and longevity are the trends to care most about like modular is good in and of itself for every type of footprint, but by sort of comprising data centers of many modular components, you actually introduce longevity into the infrastructure and it's really easy to adapt for changing needs and it's reusable and removable and there and things like that. So there has to be some level of honesty, some level of like treating reality with respect. And I don't think we do a good job of that as an industry because in our defense, we are the tech industry's less glamorous cousin. We're not flashy, we're not fun, we're not bold. And we've been established for the entire lifespan of the last two generations who are the most engaged. So it's really difficult for us because where we are known, we're not liked, where we're not known, it's really hard to educate. It's a good point that you bring up and you're hitting on some of the technology aspects again. Nicole, are there any technologies that we haven't discussed yet that you wanted to make sure we hit on? Yeah, I wanna touch on a few, but right, I'll start with kind of what you said or the obstacles. And when we look at these new technologies, it becomes cost, it becomes availability and it becomes maybe perceived resilience to those. From a power generation standpoint, one of the things not new but definitely gaining more attention is hydrogen. And whether it's hydrogen in a combustion engine, hydrogen in a fuel cell, right? But that use of hydrogen. So we're excited to see that. It do wanna, I won't get into it here, but if anybody does wanna talk about hydrogen, write or learn more, follow up. We have a podcast coming up from Cole or talk about hydrogen, all the colors of the rainbow. And you gotta really be careful what color you picked and have a positive impact. Otherwise you could be having a worse impact on the environment. But that being said, right? I do, I'm excited to see the projects that are ongoing with hydrogen. Some are still, these technologies at its infancy phase, like I said, it tends to be a little bit more pilot driven, but what I do like to see is as they're the industry or as the world's trying to tackle both production and distribution and availability of hydrogen, we're seeing a little bit more in parallel like the technologies, whether it's combustion engine or fuel cell catching up. And I'm really excited by fuel cell itself, especially as we do some development and looking at how can you get that required performance that's needed for fast startup, low transients, things like that out of this technology. So more to come, but that is one that I think while it's still out a little ways, it's definitely real. And we're gonna see that coming sometime in the future. Great, I can't wait and I can't wait for the colors. Kim, same question to you. Yeah, I'm all for green hydrogen. And also as a comment to Max's comment, I think green hydrogen is really great complement to solar and wind. So green hydrogen definitely has challenges on supply side, on demand side, and for storage, all of these three things. But I think there's things happening in all of these areas. So I would expect it to happen sooner than people think. And then the second thing that I'm kind of interested in with regard to the data centers is the UPSs and grid balancing. Also supporting the green energy ecosystem because the challenge, once again, with wind and solar is that they're intermittent. Also hydro, if it's a dry year, we saw a couple of years ago even Norway had low resources of hydro. So all of these things, if you really want to get all the green stuff out there, you need to solve the solutions with the supply and demand. And I think one way that we could also raise the profile of the whole industry is to kind of be part of this solution. So that's my take. I appreciate that, thank you. And as we start kind of wrapping up here, I really wanna understand from all of you, how in the world are we gonna be able to convey the importance of adopting the sustainable practices universally in these data centers? Jonathan, maybe I can start with you. How do we convey this? Yeah, sure, it's discussions like these. I mean, there's a lot of different views and a lot of different aspects going around. I think that's one, two, getting better accounting practices, GHD protocol following through with our commitments. I think also finding a respectful and polite way to hold each other accountable when we're not hitting targets would be a really interesting thing. I know we're really hesitant as a younger company as well on releasing targets and trying to be leaders in an industry where we have really large customers with really ambitious targets, yet trying to balance out what we think we could do and once we do benchmarking and once we start to get into developing our processes and setting our own goals. So, it's an insight, it's like how do you tackle inevitably like a really large problem yet and start keeping each other accountable? And I think some of it will be, some of the accounting practices that's being rolled out through I-Masons, some of these different groups that are talking about standardizing the same way we did on PUE but with WUE and some other aspects like that too. Good. Melissa, can I ask you the same question? Yeah, absolutely. So some of what we're doing here, we tried to make our business case internally and we did make a great business case internally. And as I've said, DC blocks, we've always kind of had an eye towards efficiency and the environmental considerations that are based off of it. And we believe we're doing a good job but felt that there was truly, you know, us saying we're doing a good job versus having a third party come in and assess us and also see how we're doing, see where we could improve and what we could alter or look towards and what we were doing great. And so we felt there was really no substitute of having somebody else come in. And so we actually chose Informatex Deep Certification that stands for Data Center Energy Efficiency Program. And they came in, they assessed our MEP, our water and power usage, everything about our operational procedures. And they actually awarded us their highest level, gold level certification. And so this was really great news. It felt really good. This was at our Birmingham facility and we were just ecstatic. I actually think their program was incredible. It took an extensive deep dive and it was great for us to make that business case and see the results. But in continuing that, you know, that's not the end of a journey and getting this certification is great news and all but that spirit of continuous improvement has to be embedded in our culture and our organization. And I will say at DC Blocks it is. That's why we're building the way we are with all of the different companies that we're acquiring and the different ways that we're adding fiber and connectivity. It's why we're growing as an organization, the way we are every day. We're trying to do more and do it better. And so it's not gonna stop there. We can take all of their feedback and use that to build and improve and try and test new things across all of our designs. Great. Any other, anyone else with final comments on that? Yeah, Laura, just real quick, right? How can businesses convey the importance, right? That's what you said. I would say, building off Melissa said, right? And having certifications, getting those compliance, getting those documents. I think as you look at where you're also securing equipment and product from, right? Look at those companies. I would say, right? Are companies publishing an ESG report? Or is your ESG report? Simple thing, but it's transparent, right? And it sets your goals and it shows the journey you're on and it gives people that confidence and that comfort. They know that it matters to you. And right, someone Melissa, when you look at products even, do they have like a product environmental profile, a PEP or environmental declaration, product EDP, like some kind of certificate that, right? It's those little things now that really start to change the culture and stress the importance of this. Yeah, I would say, sorry, do you want to go? No, no, no, Max, you go ahead. I think there are a lot of ways to convey the importance and many of them sort of intersect. I think an effective way to think though and what we try to push is to look at solutions by the lens of the utility delta compared to the current status quo times the number of people that will help. So it's sort of like the level up, it's the lens to look through and then the rest sort of can follow on from that more in a logical and mainly linear way. I'll add one more final thought as I'm sure everybody on this call has used chat GPT at least once or twice. So Nuro, our company, we literally compete with Amazon SageMaker, AWS and others. What we do, unlike anybody else, is that we are the only platform in this market that people are white labeling these solutions. So literally, Laurel data centers can have their own GPUs and Nuro running on top. What we have to do in this industry is not be like Amazon, Azure and GCP, no offense. We believe in AI ethics, AI transparency and AI sustainability and that is really important. The ethics and the transparency part of what we do and what we create is so, so, so critical. And we're trying to learn from the challenges that we experience in the data center industry. We don't wanna be a well kept secret. We wanna tell people how we do things. We wanna make sure people understand all of the various aspects of what it is to train a model. We open our Komodo, we've done LinkedIn live demos where we show the code, the execution, what it actually is doing on the backend so people can understand these nascent novel technologies and not have a natural human response of fear, right? Be curious, not judgmental. So what we're trying to do is help people be curious to learn about these technologies and the only way we can satiate curiosity is by being transparent. Well said, well said. And I think that's a great way to kind of wrap up that conversation. There's known issues, but there's clearly trends and technologies that can take us there and you guys are showing us some ways to overcome those obstacles. We could spend a good two, three hours on this and I would love to. However, I do need to wrap it up today. I wanna encourage everyone to use the Q&A window and more importantly, we're about to have our virtual tabletop conversation. So before we go there though, thank you. Thank you so much to the speakers here that I'm looking right at right now. This is an incredible topic and you guys represent it very well. For those of you that are turning in, we do have the greener data volume two and you're gonna hear more from these authors on that book. It releases on Earth Day. So if in the meantime you wanna learn more about it, go to greenerdata.net. This is where you can find sustainability content and resources. For our next round table, it too is gonna have a special greener data angle to it and that particular topic is gonna be on building the business case and we started to go there a tiny bit. I heard TCO earlier in the conversation. The conversation will be about building the business case. So how to unlock that social and financial benefits of the going green, exactly where we were headed. Tune in for that one on October 19th, 11 a.m. Eastern. So for today, this is a wrap. I would ask you to look for the playbook and the playback of this. The round table will be on JSA TV. It's also gonna be on JSA Podcasts, on YouTube, iTunes, iHeart, Spotify, and more. You'll be able to find this. In the meantime, we are gonna move ourselves over into the AirMeet Virtual Networking Lounge. So if you'd like to continue the conversation, virtually what you can do is hold on, grab a seat at that virtual table and join any one of us to continue that networking conversation. So on behalf of everyone at JSA, I just wanna thank you to our panelists and to all of you in our audience for tuning in and joining us on such a critical conversation. Thank you so much. And we'll see you in the virtual networking lounge.