 So welcome, welcome, everyone. Everybody ready to rock and roll? Yeah, it's great to have you all here today. Thank you so much for being with us. I'm Doreen Kraft. I'm the executive director of Burlington City Arts and proud to have all of you here representing the arts and cultural sector. This is fabulous. We are recording this for today. Hope that's all right with everyone, but it's an opportunity for those of us who couldn't join in. Have a chance to hear the gatherings and the thoughts of this illustrious crowd. Welcome to this gathering of the arts and cultural sector and the business community, the creatives, and our essential economic partners. Honeycomb throughout Vermont, the actual number of artists and creatives is unknown. The breadth of talent is awe-inspiring. The depth of knowledge mighty. Today, after spending over a year collecting data both here in Burlington and throughout the state, we want to share with you some of the encouraging insights we have into this sector that is both distinguished, committed, full of heart, and in some cases underpaid. To set the foundation for tonight's conversation and to share the economic impact of the arts and culture, I'd like you to welcome from Art Arts Council Executive Director, Susan's Evan McClure. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you all for joining us today, and thanks, Irene, for that warm welcome. I'm really thrilled to be here today to share with you some new data from the Arts and Economic Prosperity Six survey and to talk about the incredible impact of the arts and culture of both Burlington and Vermont's economic and community well-being. So before I start just a little bit about the Vermont Arts Council, we're the state's arts funding agency. And since 1965, we've been the primary resource for art information and art support across the state. We're also the state affiliate for the National Endowment for the Arts, which means that federal funds flow to Vermont through us from the National Endowment for the Arts. And our funding comes about 45% from the state, 45% from the federal government, and 10% from private philanthropy. We do three real big things. The first is we have direct funding to artists and organizations. We also do capacity building and technical assistance to organizations as well, so to help them do their best work. And then we're working to change the conditions that all of us are living and working in so that we can have thriving, equitable communities where creativity is really at the heart of those communities. So as part of that work, we run the Vermont Creative Network. So the Vermont Creative Network is a collaborative statewide effort to bring together Vermont's creative sector, quantify its impact, and advocate for its growth in the future. Creativity, as I'm sure everyone agrees in this room, is essential to the cultural and economic vitality of our state. And while the network is a program of the Arts Council, it's much broader than that. Our focus is really on creating a big tent to facilitate advocacy, research, and networking for the creative sector. And when I say creative sector, I mean the enterprises, organizations, businesses, individuals, all of which are rooted in artistic and creative content, which in our state of Vermont is just a tremendous number of people, organizations, and businesses. The Vermont Creative Network's vision for the state is that arts culture and creativity are essential Vermont infrastructure, that Vermont communities thrive through creative expression and enterprise, and that these creative enterprises are really succeeding in a diverse, equitable, and connected collaborative environment. So AEP6, the Arts and Economic Prosperity Six survey, is an economic and social impact study of the nation's nonprofit arts and culture industry based on data collected in 2022. The survey has been conducted on a regular basis. The sixth is because it's the sixth time for 30 years by Americans for the Arts. And AEP6 nationally provides detailed findings on 373 regions from all of the states and Puerto Rico, ranging in population from 4,000 to 4 million people and representing rural, suburban, and large urban communities. And it's important to note before we get started that this data from AEP6 is just looking at nonprofits, both national and in Vermont and in Burlington. And it's just a snapshot in time. So the data was collected in 2022. And we don't have to dig hard to remember that things were still in transition in 2022 as they still are today in 2024. I will note that during COVID, nonprofits and for-profits in the creative sector really united together to make the case that our sector is stronger when we talk about our impact collectively, no matter what our tax status is. And in fact, our COVID relief programs funded $9 million of ARPA, used $9 million of ARPA funding. And it was the first time that the Arts Council was actually able to fund for-profit creative businesses. So while these results of AEP6 are definitely meaningful, it's important to keep in mind that they are results only for the nonprofit sector and that really the creative sector is much more encompassing than that. So nationally, in 2022, nonprofit arts and culture organizations and their audiences generated $151.7 billion in economic activity, $73.3 billion in spending by the organizations, which leveraged in addition $78.4 billion in event-related spending by audiences. This economic impact is really far-reaching, supporting 2.6 million jobs across the country, generating $29.1 billion in tax revenue to local, state, and federal government. So the AEP6 study really sends a strong signal that when we support the arts, we are investing in both economic and community well-being. The survey also looked at social impact and found overwhelmingly that audiences deeply value the work of nonprofit arts and culture organizations, with 86% of respondents saying that the arts and culture is important to their community's quality of life and livability. And 72% agreeing that the arts and culture's real value is in providing shared experiences with people of different races, ethnicities, ages, and beliefs. So that's great for our country, but what does that look like in Vermont? Well, specifically here, 120 nonprofit organizations in Vermont collected data at live events over several seasons in 2022. So that's libraries, music performances, museums, theaters, and all sorts of live events, collected visitor data in a really rigorous process. Our partner organizations also conducted regional surveys in Greater Burlington, which you'll hear about today, and thank you to BCA for being the lead on that, and Greater Rutland and the Upper Valley. So in the state of Vermont, the sector generated $158.6 million in economic activity during 2022, $103.2 million in spending by arts and culture organizations, and an additional $55.4 million in event-related expenditures by their audiences. So that economic activity supported 2,712 jobs, provided $112.8 million in personal income to residents, and generated almost $35 million in tax revenue to local, state, and federal governments. So nonprofit arts and culture organizations are businesses. They employ people locally. They purchase supplies and services from nearby businesses, and they engage in the marketing and promotion of our cities and our regions. They're very active doing business, creating, presenting, exhibiting, engaging, has a positive economic impact and improves community well-being. So as a business, they are driving commerce to other local businesses. So in Vermont in 2022, there were 1.4 million attendees to arts and culture events put on by nonprofits. 75% of those attendees were locals, and 25% were non-local, meaning that they traveled from outside of the county area. And of those non-local audiences, almost 75% reported that their primary purpose of their visit was specifically to attend a performance event exhibit venue or facility. So people are coming, traveling specifically to go to these cultural events. And when people do that, they make an outing of it. Hopefully some of you in this room have done that too. Maybe tonight you're going out to dinner after this, or maybe getting a beer on the way home. We've all paid for parking tonight. Or maybe childcare, which I'm doing right now. So overall in the state of Vermont, attendees spend $35 and 50, sorry, $34.53 per person on top of the cost of admission. So that means every time someone buys a ticket, they're spending an additional almost $35. So the arts and culture are not just good for the local economy. They're a key part of our visitor economy. In the state of Vermont, we just saw that 25% of audiences are non-local visitors. And they spend on average almost 80% more than local attendees across the state as a result of their attendance to these events. So non-local attendees are spending almost $52 per person. Locals are spending around $29 a person. And on top of that, about 80% of non-locals, again, said that their primary reason that they were traveling was for these events. Which is pretty impressive and pretty exciting to have these numbers. I think we often talk about this multiplier effect. We know that people come, they spend money. But this is some very recent data that gives us really hard numbers on just how much money people are spending in our communities. And on top of spending money, the arts and culture are really contributing to community pride. 87% of attendees agreed that the activity or venue was creating a sense of pride in their neighborhood or community. Almost 86% agreed that they would feel a sense of loss if their activity or venue were no longer available. And 80% agreed that where they were visiting was an important pillar of the community, which I think is really meaningful that not only are people committing their money, but they're also committing their hearts and their loyalties. And it's an important part of what makes our state who we are. So that data paints a statewide picture. But specific to Burlington, we can talk about what that looks like here. Well, in 2022, the nonprofit arts and culture sector generated $93.5 million in economic activity in the greater Burlington area. That economic activity supported 1,321 jobs, provided $55.8 million in personal income to residents, and generated $16.8 million in tax revenue to local, state, and federal governments. Which is pretty impressive, especially in all of our conversations about how to continue to revitalize the economy of our downtowns across the state. And when it comes to what audiences are spending in Burlington, I'll read those because the numbers are cut off. I think I might need some help with that. When it comes to what people are spending in Burlington, the numbers are really impressive too. So while statewide 25% of attendees are non-local, in Burlington, it's 30% of attendees are non-local. And of those 30%, 80% of them came just to attend the event and they are spending on average $77.87 per person. Just to go back to that statewide data, on the statewide level, non-locals are spending around $53 in Burlington, it's a lot more. So that number, $77.80 per person on top of the cost of admission is higher than the national non-local spending average. Oh, it is in my notes. Okay, great. It's higher than the national non-local spending average, which is just over $60 per person. And comparatively, to look at a similar city, it's higher than the non-local spending average of Portland, Maine, which is around $57 per person, higher than the Vermont non-local average and much higher than the Vermont locals average of around $28. So pretty exciting stuff and great to have these statistics and these numbers to support the incredible work that our creative community does. I'll also note that Americans for the Arts has created a Vermont specific impact calendar as part of their research. So organizations can actually calculate their dollar amount, that their impact that they have on the Vermont economy. So you can go to this on our website and actually input the operating expenses of your organization and get an estimate on the number of jobs, household income, local government, state government revenue, tax revenue that your organization is driving when it comes to our economy. It's a great tool that helps you tell the story of impact for individual organizations. So while all of this AEP6 data is really exciting, there's also other data out there about the economic impact of the creative sector that tells a broader sector wide picture of the impact on Vermont's economy. So in 2021, the US Bureau of Economic Analysis reported that arts and culture production in Vermont, including nonprofits, for-profits and lots of different industries accounts for $1.1 billion and 3% of Vermont's economy and over 10,000 jobs. When you compare the sectors that are adding value to Vermont's economy, arts and culture actually ranks third, the third largest economic sector behind retail and construction. To me, this is some really comprehensive data that tells us a very big picture of the impact of the creative economy on Vermont's economy. This doesn't diminish the value of AEP6 at all, especially because of that specific data around spending, which is great to know. So we all have our own connections to the arts in Vermont, and many of us in this room do, and many of us in this room work in the arts, and you are the people who are contributing these numbers to Vermont's economy. But what's really clear through this new data is that not only are the arts vital to our human, personal, and community well-being, they're also vital to our economy and the strength of our economy. And that when we strengthen the creative economy, we're actually strengthening Vermont's overall economy. So I'm gonna hand it over to our next speaker, who is Harold Stewart, the new executive director of the New England Foundation for the Arts. So he'll be building a bit on this to look even bigger as we're looking at impact and looking at the regional impact, because Harold's organization of NIFA actually works both within all of the states of New England, but also nationally when it comes to creativity and the creative economy. So Harold, thanks everyone. Thanks, Susan. Again, my name is Harold Stewart. My pronouns are they and he. I am the very new executive director at the New England Foundation for the Arts, more commonly known as NIFA, started in July. So I'm gonna reserve my right to be new, talk about what I think I know and have a lot of grace because I'm still on my learning journey, but I definitely wanna amplify the things that have been said and really speak more on opportunities as they may exist at NIFA historically, but some of the things that we're thinking about currently as it relates to the creative economy. So if you're one of those people that was like, man, I didn't get to the BCA to fill out that survey, NIFA has an opportunity that may be available for you tomorrow, right? So we can continue to collect data and kind of inform some of the decisions that ultimately will make as it relates to the creative economy in the region, but also within this state and this community. I'm not gonna assume that everyone knows NIFA. So NIFA's mission is to invest in artists and communities and foster equitable access to the arts, enriching the cultural landscape in New England and the nation. So obviously not only the creative economy in the nation, but also in the region is kind of dear to us and we really wanna continue to understand it. Also significant to NIFA, NIFA was founded in 1976 by seed money from the NEA as one of the six regional arts organizations kind of designed early in those days to make sure that presenting and touring was happening across states within region, but we still maintain almost just like direct line to the NEA. So not only do we receive funds from the NEA, but the data and the real stories and advocacy that we can do directly to the national endowment for the arts is critical. So taking those New England stories, those Vermont stories, those Burlington stories back to our federal office. You know, NIFA has a creative economy program currently. Some of you, if you're not connected to our common ground platform, that is a platform where we try to connect artists, artists, arts to arts organization and just run a database of who are the creatives and the institutions within New England. So if you're looking for a painter in Burlington, you may go to that creative ground database and find some people. So we really wanna be a connector of folks. That database coming grounds is available on the Vermont Arts Council website and also through our website as well. Additionally, before the pandemic, NIFA had a convening, the creative community exchange where we were bringing together influential people like artists, state workers, city workers and economic development and really exchange ideas and share information about what folks are doing to be inspired and also to implement in their own cities and towns. Unfortunately, during COVID, we had to pause that program and now we're in this moment of re-imagining, like what those activities look like. Is it safe to convene? Do we, you know, so there's a lot of questions that convening has not been reinstated, but NIFA is in a strategic planning moment. So it's a good time not only to think about what we wanna do for the creative economy, but what do we wanna do overall? I'm on these cultural tours as the new ED. So today is day one of spending some quality time in Vermont listening to people. I've been to Connecticut. I've been to Rhode Island, Vermont. Have I been anywhere else yet? I don't know. They continue to happen. I'm on my way to kind of others, but New Hampshire, I've been to New Hampshire and the through line I think throughout the various places like this that I come, are people are concerned about their sustainability, right? It's not about discipline specific or all of those things, but how are we gonna just live, right? Thriving is not even something that we can even imagine right now in our creative economy, but how do we just get by in these moments? So I'm taking that information back in here in those real stories that our sector, our region, our towns and our practitioners are really concerned about their economic state of themselves and their communities right now. In the strategic planning moment, tomorrow there will be a link and a survey asking for your input, right? So as an ED, I definitely have some ideas of what we should be doing, but we believe in co-creating a process together. So your voice is very, very important. Susan sits on our board. So we earlier today, I said, I just need one individual to take that survey and write art at the intersection of poverty. And then it frees me up to say, it was written in the survey, what can we do about it? So that is me encouraging you to, if there's somebody, you know, just be kind of specific. So I say, see, they said it, right there. Can we do it? Please mom, please mom. But what I think we are in alignment on in the organization, not getting too advanced of hearing from you all and our own thinking is that we wanna be an organization that can articulate and strategize around social impact, right? We have some very beautiful programs in dance and theater and public art, but we don't wanna change those things, right? We wanna be discipline specific. We wanna continue providing opportunities for presenting and touring, but we wanna make sure that there is a through line throughout our work, even though some of our grant programming may be diverse. So we're thinking and holding onto this opportunity to be an organization that collects data, build strategies and advocate for social impact. And that's as broad as anything else. And one of the things that we are holding true is that NIFA is almost 50. And I don't know if there's any 50 year olds in the room. I mean, you all look amazing. So I wanna assume anyone's age, I'm 41, so I'm close. And when you get to a big age like this, there are things that you know. So we love the fact that we continue to collect data, but also there are some things that we've realized in almost 50 years. So what can we double down on because we already know it and begin to move strategies and invest in what we know? At 41, if I'm still asking the same questions I was asking at 21, it's like, well, what happened to all of that learning and those things that you do? So we're committed to, what if we realized in our life are our curiosities, but speaking directly to the powers that beat it. Like we know this. We know that arts improves dot, dot, dot. We know that we do these things. Now give us an opportunity to change conditions. That's the kind of investment that we want. So that's as much as I know right now in terms of what feels like what we can commit to, but we really are seeking to hear your voice. So we can make sure as a regional organization that we are building strategies that we are advocating appropriately and comprehensively. And that again, because if you've been in a town similar to this, that a lot has changed in the last 50 years and it's taking people coming together and staying the course. So that's my little spiel. It's more of a invitation and a plea and an opportunity to say that there's still a chance to really inform what some creative economy considerations may be for our regional work and for this local community. So please take me up on that opportunity. And really all you have to write, art, poverty, do something, right? That's enough, right? So I'm gonna stop there. I'll be around. If you want to know more about NETHA, if you wanna chat, I believe we're gonna hang around a little bit, but I do wanna honor the time and the program as it has already been established and bring up our next speaker. Joan Goldstein, Commissioner of the Department of Economic Development at Vermont's Agency on Commerce and Community Development. So welcome. Thank you. I'm not sure how to do this. Thank you. Thank you, Doreen, Susan and Harold. And thank you for inviting me to this great event to celebrate the arts in Vermont's economy. At the State of Vermont and in our department, particularly the Economic Development Department, we usually have small amounts of money to go to employers for training. That's our typical appropriation. And if there's any silver lining in the last couple of years, our department was able to get some American Rescue Plan dollars. And they were meant for a variety of uses, but one of which was to help those impacted industries. And I don't have to tell anybody in this room just how severely impacted the arts were during that period of time. And so we were able to deploy $5.9 million of American Rescue Plan money to 22 arts organizations throughout the state. For example, we awarded Burlington City Arts a grant to help renovate BCA Studios on 405 Pine Street. Other examples include investing in Northern Stage Company expansion in White River Junction so that they could improve, improving accessibility at Rutland's Paramount Theater and helping Catamount Film and Arts establish a creative campus in St. Johnsbury and funding for Town Hall Theater in Middlebury, which just programs. So all around the state, there had been a variety of projects that we were able to impact, whereas typically we're not able to do that. And we realize that the pandemic and post-pandemic is still being felt throughout the state just because you don't snap back in a minute. And I do have a very soft spot in my heart for the arts because that is where my own personal journey began. A little known fact is that I went to the High School of Music and the Arts in New York City and I'm ashamed to tell all of you that I did not pursue that first passion. It feels a little bit like the commercial a few years back. You know, one of the career sites, it was like they showed little kids and they're like, I really want to be a middle manager. You know? So, but anyway, after years in finance and also government, you know, there are some intersections that are very, very important with the arts. And Vermont is a very special place and indeed a special place for the arts. It inspires, you could get inspired, it inspires you, you could be a patron to get through some tough weather months and also during the lovely, lovely months that make you so happy to be alive. It is basically a four season pursuit and it helps Vermonters and visitors alike as all the beautiful data that we just heard about. We all end up spending money which is wonderful for economic activity. And the arts are also a magnet for visitors and it just brings people into Burlington, part of the formula that makes the Queen's City such a hub of activity. Whether tourists are attending a performance at the Flynn or concert at Waterfront Park or take in the Discover Jazz Festival or Festival of Fools, it draws people in and helps people who come here to enjoy the place that we are fortunate enough to call home. And while they are here, they spend even more money than we spend, Vermonters being thrifty, right? But they spend more money which is wonderful and it's great that Burlington actually is, people spend even more money and I think it's a function of that there are more options and that's why developing our downtowns and continuing to embrace the arts and all that it brings to a community is so important. And as we know, they don't just enjoy the arts, they work in the arts. So simply put, what's good for the arts is good for Vermont. The arts make our lives better and economy stronger. There are a great interrelations between the arts and music and mathematics and science and all of that is great for the youth to be involved at early ages. So supporting the creative economy is truly supporting Vermont and all who call the Green Mountains home. And now I'm just going to pass it on to Kara Al-Naswari. Do I have that right? The business and workforce development director for the city of Burlington. Thank you. Hi, everyone. I'll be brief. A problem being later in the speaking schedule is you all stole my thunder already on a lot of my points. So I do want to bring it down to the local level, though. And I'll start with a confession, which is that when Doreen and her team shared these numbers with me that she got from Susan, I had a real wow moment and was kind of embarrassed that I hadn't realized the actual impact of the creative economy on Vermont's economy. Seeing it all laid out, I hadn't seen hard data like that before. And it was just really staggering. And I think I really wrote, I think I actually emailed back, wow. So that brings us here today. Some of the numbers that Susan threw out, which I would love to repeat, the 93 million plus for the greater Burlington area is staggering. And again, a reminder, also what she indicated is that's for nonprofits only, which are an enormous part of the arts and very important, but I don't know if any of you have been to higher ground or seen other types of concerts. My husband is a big fan of live music. And so if we try and expand on what that impact really is, it really is staggering. And that 30% of the attendees are non-local. So we're not just talking not Burlington, we're talking not greater Burlington area. So there are people who are really traveling in for this. Obviously what impacts me in my work most and what I was most drawn to with this data was the expenditures at the businesses, whether it's on the retail level, excuse me, or grabbing a beer or getting dinner, et cetera. These businesses, over 90% of the businesses in Burlington are locally owned. So these are our neighbors. These are our friends, they're children, go to school with our children. They are making their life, building their life with their businesses in our community. And so making that connection and understanding the synergy between the arts and the impact it has on our members of our communities, our neighbors is just, it's very impactful. And so I was very much struck by that. I'll leave you with one last thing. I was also struck when I went through the data that over 90% of the greater Burlington area respondents to the AEP6 survey said that this activity or venue is inspiring a sense of pride in this neighborhood or community. In economic development, especially on the local level, there's a buzzword called placemaking. And it generally means making physical alterations to your downtown or your city. But I was struck by thinking about placemaking and that the arts create a sense of space and place and that they're impacting our community on that level as well. I will now reintroduce Doreen Kraft, the executive director of Burlington City Arts to wrap us up. Thank you. Well, first of all, thank you all. This is really inspiring company to be a part of and to share. And Cara, we're gonna put you on the hot seat often now as we make our case both for the budgets in the arts as we begin to fight in the year of 25 coming upon us for the value of the arts in this community and the hard work that all of you do. Artists are at the core of BCA's operating model. They are each a small business, part of the workforce in both recognized and under recognized ways. Musician, potter, theater performer, painter, filmmaker, dancer, they create work hire other professional talent, rent studio space, sell their wares, perform their work, gather communities together and engage audiences in both the process and the product of their work. They buy supplies, create stage sets, takes classes, go for professional development, sell tickets, run arts organizations, run cultural organizations. And these are just a few of the drivers of the creative economy. Going down even a little more Uber local, BCA alone with a $2.8 million budget brought close to 190,000 people to engage with the arts last year. That's like, that's phenomenal. It's just, ah! And we paid over 600 artists for their work during that time. Big numbers, big numbers, really. I mean, philosophically at our core, we do not ask an artist to do work for this community unless they are paid. And when I started my job many years ago, that was not the case within the state and the community locally. And now it is becoming more and more standard to understand that this is, you would never ask, as someone has said to me, a plumber to do some work for you for free. Because you know what the answer would be. So this includes ways that we create opportunities for artists to engage and to make a living in Vermont. There are artist markets, there are festivals, exhibitions, classes, film screenings, giving out grants, creating public art opportunities, classes. And of course, let's not forget that we give opportunity to dance in the new splash pad outside in City Hall Park to some great DJ music. It's been really fun this summer. With this study and other economic data, the arts, the artists and arts organizations are empowered to always have a seat at the table, to develop new partnerships, understanding their impact, and then to work even deeper in the private and public sector, to fundraise with real numbers and to put great proposals together for grants with test amounts of your community. For artists to deepen their practice and continue to strengthen our position in the flourishing of the state, the community, and the neighborhood. The art sector is widely misunderstood. And with this data and others that we are collecting, there is nothing but opportunity. This sector, which is all of you, are the architects of community pride, of belonging and creative solutions that we need in an ever-increasingly complex world. We are the tie that binds. Thank you so much for being with us. And let's take questions from the press. That must be Jay. Click, click, click. Can I speak to that? Yeah. I just want to put a plug in for Common Good Vermont. They're the organization that represents kind of all the nonprofits of Vermont. They're working on a survey right now to try to put some dollars towards what... They're not focusing on individual artists. They're looking at nonprofits. But how much money nonprofits are spending and raising to provide vital services that potentially were part of state government and then were given over to nonprofits? So that is just, if you haven't seen that and you're interested in learning more, you can look that up on Common Good's website. But I think that's going to be a really powerful tool also to try to get the data on how much nonprofits are fundraising separately, raising and then using to provide vital community services. And we've recognized this a lot in our public art program is to really work with artists to understand what it is going to cost to produce work because artists often want the work so bad and that's completely understood. But they're not going to pay themselves very much during that time because the cost of hiring others as part of that project, the material costs, the length of time, the devotion they put in, they don't think of themselves at the core of that. And I think we have to support artists, give them courage, give them real numbers to work with and share the experience of other artists who might have had greater opportunity to expose themselves to those costs. So I think there's a lot we can do, really good point. Around the city, I think that's pretty convincing case of why we need to have a modern city center and arena here to support performing arts and bringing people together. And I think that that's something that would help us out here. So we'll have that conversation. Thank you. Any other questions? Sure. Holly. Hi. I'm only a few. It's questions really about the survey itself which I used to give the executive director to beat it, but I remember that we handed out the surveys for Burlington and all our screenings and so on, whatever that was. But it occurred to me, and unless I missed it, when I was watching Susan, when I was watching your PowerPoint, there were two questions, or rather, there were two answers you gave to questions. One was that, and it's all incredibly encouraging. But one was, how much more did you spend in addition to the ticket cost? And it was just because the Vicky France festivals, i.e., multiple, multi-day events, I can't remember, or even though I saw the survey at the time, does this mean, I mean, some people would buy many tickets, if you see what I mean. So statistically, I don't need to be so pedantic, but statistically, is it in addition, each time they bought a ticket, they would also add $58 or however much it was? And the other thing quickly, you know, the question about the out-of-status or out-of-county or whatever, who spent more, no, sorry, not spend more, who didn't come specifically for the event, they came anyway for probably physically relatives or whatever, or the shopping, and then they discovered the event. A great question to ask them, the next time you do the survey is, having discovered this event, would you come again, especially for it? It'd be interesting to know who said that. Yeah, both really good points, Orly, to dig into this data a little more. So the first one is actually a pretty easy answer, according to Americans for the Arts, who parsed all the data, that those numbers are every individual event they go to. So you go to an event, you spend that much money. So in terms of the way, my understanding of the way the survey was administered, it was event-specific. So even for an event like VTIF that has multiple film showings, maybe five nights in a row, every single night and every film was considered one event. So that's spending on top of that. Yeah, it's pretty good. The second question about coming back, I think is an interesting and deeper one, and one that often comes up in conversations with arts organizations in Vermont, where it can sometimes feel hard to get information out in a rural place. Like how do people find out about what to go to? How do people know when to come back? Like I'm guilty of that too. Sometimes I feel like, man, I missed something that I really wanted to see. So we have any resource on our website, just kind of explaining the many calendars that are across the state, both our own calendar for the Vermont Arts Council, the state's Department of Tourism calendar, that's under ACCD, and some other event calendars for local listings, seven days, and some other press opportunities that are out there too. So I think that it can feel overwhelming about how to get your information out there and where we would love if people have questions about that ways that we can help cut through that noise of marketing and promotion too with our really limited marketing and promotion budgets. I would say most mid-sized organizations would have one person who is your development finance marketing communications person, and it can be hard for them to do all those jobs. So I think it's a great question when we want to dig into more to support the field. Hi, I've got a comment. I'm Barbara Perry, I'm a board of BCA, and I live in rural Vermont. First, I want to say this is an incredible experience. I've learned more than I have in a long time, and I thank you all. I've lived in rural Vermont for a long time. The arts are misunderstood. It's just the way it is in our small little state. And anything we can do to keep the communication going, anything is so important. But I had the opportunity of a few years ago to be in Martha, Texas for a wonderful installation, and I'll never forget this man who's a rancher who donated his land for this installation set. Whoever would have thought that the ranchers and the artists have come together and created a partnership. And I think we have to keep working on that in our state. Yeah, I love that. And I know I'm a little biased here, but I think Vermonters are the most creative people on the planet. And I think one of the things we can do at the state level is really both lean into the amazing creative work that's being produced here and expand our understanding of what creativity means in the state. So someone who builds a sugar house out of found materials on the side of the road is incredibly creative and using artistry. Someone who is in rural Addison County and their tractor breaks in the middle of a field and they don't have any equipment to fix it and they need to fix that tractor. That's the most creative person on earth, right? So both leaning into the amazing, incredibly high quality refined gallery experiences and museums and arts organizations we have here and then appreciating, supporting and sustaining at the same level, those incredible creative values in our really rural state is a very important thing that we can do to support all of the arts and creative economy too. That I think, you know, I wanna validate the statement that there's some misunderstanding in arts in ways that we combat seem such like a strong word, but you know, I'm from Texas, fight, fight, fight. Hook'em or something. So also the Marfa inspiration was like, let me talk. I think what it looks like, maybe in cultural organizing and community organizing is that if there's not cultural strategy attached to anything that you're talking about that it's incomplete, right? So again, if there's a city meeting about housing, what is the cultural strategy? I think for housing many towns can benefit for having a local arts council to help do that work. But if you don't have someone at every type of meeting, just looking at the information and asking the question, what is the cultural strategy? Which is also where the artists and all of these things. And I think it is hopefully there are ways to acknowledge that it didn't always be this way. Many of our native Kins and friends will say, even in their practice, there's not a word for art. There wasn't a word for all of these separatists and separated kind of ideas that it was all encompassing. So if you're talking about community and other things, it's all encompassing. And so I think as we begin to continue to articulate a picture of our community, where are the artists? Are we whole and all of these things? But we have to constantly ask that question, especially of elected officials and city policy and all of these things, where's the cultural strategy here? And if there's no cultural strategy here, then these efforts are incomplete. You can come to any city council meeting, any gathering in Burlington anytime. I can just see all of the surveys that are coming back from Burlington now, arts, poverty, how are we connecting? It's the only thing Burlington's gonna write. So you're gonna be remembering this visit. Other questions, everyone for being here, we're gonna move downstairs to a little social gathering, a chance to talk further with each other. Thank you very much for those of you who traveled today to be with us or who made time to be a part of this gathering. And I think it's really important these coming together, which we didn't do for so long. I think they have tremendous new value and understanding of how critical they are to us and just how much we need each other. So thank you all of the panelists who came and we're a part of this today. BCA thanks you, the community thanks you. And let's go have some fun and some good food.