 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. Today we're doing a special show, a special sports show which is about running, running away from responsibilities, running away from life, running away from pain. But more importantly, running large distances. In the studio with us is Leslie Xavier, Dr. Rajat Chauhan and Dr. Divya Parasher. So Dr. Rajat Chauhan for those of you who don't know, organizes this tremendous ultra running event called LaUltra. And we've got him here. You've just finished the latest edition of LaUltra, the 2019 edition. So can you tell us a little bit about LaUltra, the event, how you've thought about this and how you've conceptualized it and this year's event a little bit too? So it's been 10 years. It's the 10th edition that happened this year. And initially it began because I wanted to run across the country. I'd just come back from UK all that stuff. So it was we can do all these races here. Why go anywhere else for it? Because geographically we are amazing as a country. And it started from there and I'd been running for 30 odd years already, 25 whatever, already. And the plan was it wasn't supposed to be an event. And then landed up in Manali. Manali to Leh highway is very interesting. It goes up like that. And then I was talking to the army guy saying, is this doable? This is phenomenal because this is as good as the world's best. You know, when events happen, we have everything here. And the army guys turned around and said, civilians can't do it. Because they said they can't do it. Like now it has to be done. So it started from there. And that time the distance was only supposed to be 222 kilometers. Yeah, this is actually something that I'm actually going to question you about this this weird obsession with numbers you have. What are these numbers? 222, 333. This year you had a 555. What's next? 999 or is it 666 better? So I also want to just point out to you guys that he said Manali to Leh highway is very good. For all of us who are like, even amateur runners, when we think about running, you think, yeah, this park is good. Or if you want to go to Marathon, you say, yeah, the distance from Shillong to Cherapunji is very good. These these are distances that are absolutely out of this world. Like, I mean, I can't even think about it. And this is where like, I want to bring you in a little bit. And you're a clinical and sports psychologist. So I want to get a little input on like, how, what are these people doing? Like, what's, what's wrong with them? And that's how it started. Because that's how when I was talking to Rajat saying, why, why do these people run? So that's where it turned out that why don't I go to large this year, and actually do a research study. So I went in as a researcher, I thought I will interview these ultra runners who are there running all these crazy distances and kind of talk to them about why they run. So primarily, if I just look at the backdrop of large, the responses were clearly more the mental agility, but it wasn't or the distance is fun. It was more like, I want to challenge. I want life's boring. I want a new set of challenges to work on. It taught them something about themselves each time they ran at that altitude in those extreme weather conditions, those distances. So it was like, what's my truest potential? Can I see that? Can I reach that? So it was those things where they were testing themselves, seeing how far they could go, strategizing, planning. A lot of them spoke about self transcendence, where, you know, it was mind over body. So it was like, the distances are crazy. We are hallucinating. We have blisters. The body is breaking down, but the mind keeps saying, keep going on. And then, of course, this time over, and I'm sure we'll talk more about it, the weather conditions just went totally crazy. So all the planning and strategizing they would have done fell through the cracks. So it's like, now what? But then they came back. And so I had, and we were trailing the runners. And it was fascinating because I'm like, now with that crazy 24 hours of snow and rain, those who would push, who would come through other ones who have really pushed themselves and driven themselves. So the reasons were many. How we run the shorter distances. For us, running is about health. But for them, it was just a whole new game altogether. The other big aspect which came about was social influence. A lot of them had battled their own personality quirks or mental illnesses and felt that fitness and this kind of a mental engagement is teaching people to live happier, healthier lives. So there were a few who had come across as really good change agents. But the transformation from what their stories have said about how it's affected them across the spectrum, how it made them more patient people, how it made them more determined, how they were more focused. So it wasn't just when they're on the track, it was like at work and this in my relationship and this. So across the spectrum that influenced, they spoke about this pretty telling. Actually, this is something like Leslie, you can also like give me a little bit about this. Like we, you, you're a martial artist. You also have been a wrestler. And you also cycle you've cycled long distances. And if you remember, like I remember a few years back, we had a conversation about a Slovakian cyclist called Eur Rubik, who's an ultra cyclist who had, I mean, he, there was a piece about the mental transformation he would go through while doing these distances. And he did the race occur ram, right? And that's the aspect that like, I mean, I feel like any sport you play, there's this what happens when you are engaging with that sport. And in that sense, this distance distance events these Yeah, so martial arts or fight sport is actually an entire different scene altogether, because it's, it's, it's very short. It's, it's, I mean, not the training bit, but, but actual competition as such is very, but then the masters be it karate or be it any other martial art, they have all spoken about similar things that that the practitioner goes through when they train martial arts. But I don't know the correlation now with long distance running and the challenges involved in ultra races. But, but when, when we train karate, we, we get into a zone, a meditative zone, which, which, which enhances your innate abilities and answers your, your strengths and all that. As far as cycling long distance is concerned, I don't know whether the so basically, I did a lot of long distance cycling. And then I realized that at some point, you mentioned healthy living. But at some point, I got confused between what is healthy living, because you are breaking down your body also. So I, I remember talking to him and saying that it's not worth it. It's not, it's not worth doing anything beyond 150 on a cycle. Because you're just simply destroying yourself and whatever mental gain that comes out of it, I don't know whether it's worth it either. So maybe you can put some, shed some light into it. I'm assuming, like, I mean, I know ultra runners think of the marathon as a sprint event. And it is a sprint event. I mean, if you're doing 555 kilometers, that is 10 marathons, more than 10 marathons. Yeah, it is. I mean, I guess I'm assuming that Elliot Kupchak, the guy who was the world record for the marathon, he doesn't run 555 kilometers competitively in a year. He doesn't. So you might you at large, you must speak to a lot of runners. You must see a lot of them running because you're obviously a martial, you must be on the course, you must be seeing the kind of, I don't know, the mental disintegration, the physical disintegration and reintegration they go through. So I mean, a little bit about that. And also, like, how maybe have you seen the runners respond differently? Guys who come regularly for the event? Yeah, yeah. So I think the first one, you know, carrying on from where Leslie was talking about the health component of it. I think let's be very clear about it. 30 to 40 minutes cardio vascular cycling running swimming, whichever that's health, you know, the health benefits and all that. After that, it's passion, it's madness. It's about, you know, me time, or whatever else running away from some research project. Totally. That's, that's why she was there. So, so exactly, it becomes that because it's like, now, you know, why is this on? And I was very fascinated when she said that more than happy, please come along and figure out why we're doing this, because we all have a reason and probably all of it is different. So disintegrating ways. See what happens is my first one was Paris to London. I was running from, you know, one city to another one. Flight looks not working. Actually, people told me there was a train as well between the two. But this 2004. So it started from there, my whole ultra running kind of started from there. Actually, a little bit there. So I used to do half and full marathon still that time. And a friend said, you know, your times. So my half time, half marathon time was 118. And full marathon time was at 238. And this friend said, okay, times, amateur wise, you can brag about it. But professionally, this is useless. Right? This isn't at all up there. Why can't you do longer at the same pace? That's what got me to ultra saying, listen, I can keep the same pace. I can keep it for 100 k 24 hours all that. So, you know, 15 years ago. So that was the reason I got into ultra saying, probably this my space. So yes, when you talk about the half and the full that's your regular morning warm up run type of a thing for an ultra runner, definitely 21. Alright, so 42 slightly beyond but 21, it can be every regular day run weekend run could easily be for four or five hours for them. Right? Now, once they've been doing it for a while. And I remember 2009 is when I did my first set of a half marathon every day for the whole month. Now the body gets used to it. So you know, my one kilometer for me isn't your one kilometer. You know, there are two different things. So as much as the distance is same. So those are very different. So it's about how do you get your body adapted to it? And how does the body respond to it is very, very important question really. People up there, the distance isn't a big issue. So whoever's coming up there saying, listen, distance big deal. Now what about the altitude because oxygen is the killer. So if you don't have the right amount of oxygen, it can actually kill you. And they appreciate that. Then the second part is how long can you sustain it? You know, 24 hours, 48, like triple five was five and a half days. The guy who can understand why yeah, the guy who came first, Australian champ Jason Redden, he slept in total six hours through the through the five and a half days. Right? All I'm really trying to refer to here is how he's a you, you know, got used to his body's got used to with just that much rest and yet keep moving. These two things just adding up together, like I feel like this may have been, these may have given you really great insights into what's happening. So as a psychologist, I'm used to people being sucked into their hallucinations and disintegrating. Here are these guys who are like, Oh, yeah, I hallucinated. I saw Roger there. I don't even know if I talked to him if it was real. But they had this distance from it. They knew that it was happening, but they kept running. They kept their pace. They kept their focus. But it was like an outside. So that whole self transcendence, it's like, for me, I had never seen anything like that where somebody knows they're going through this. It's, it's disorienting. It's, it's disintegrating, but they still go on. So that for me was absolutely fascinating. Or Rajat said they said it wasn't about the distance at all. You know, it was just how they could push through and come back after fall, after an injury, after the slips in the snow and things like that. Like they always like, I mean, you always talk about the pain barrier, but this is beyond beyond. Yeah, absolutely. I got a call. It was Jason. I had finished 258 kilometers. I got a call midnight, maybe 1am or whatever it was. And his crew member said there's a knee pain. As a race director, my immediate response was not so much about I'm sleepy or not. That wasn't the point. It was about he's done 250 kilometers. He has a knee pain. You surprised get on with it. So, you know, it's pain only. I mean, get on with it. It's not about the physical part as I said, 90% shared really, we thought it was impossible. Seriously, we were waiting to see what I still think it's impossible. No, we just thought that let's see how far can they go. We weren't waiting for a finish line, triple five that anyone's getting there. We were like, okay, let's see 475, 485, like what will those numbers be? It was so psychological. It was like how many participants you had in the 554 five, five of them and all of them treated. So the first one I'd got to Carl Dungla. So the first pass and he was three minutes late and we have cut offs. And I was standing there and that's what I hugged him and I told him I'm sorry. And he was late. He was late by three minutes. Okay, three minutes in the scope of like, five day. I mean, so I'm assuming you have cut off times that are say, 17 hours, you have to be at x checkpoint. So if you miss it by three minutes, what does that mean? This was a 10 hour cut off. So what does that mean? Like it translates into like just that three minutes. I mean, I'm just trying to understand like that these rules are in place for the Alright, okay, that. So the first reason is safety. Because this is at 17 and a half 17,700 feet. Right? The army board there up there says please don't spend more than 1015 minutes even sitting down. I get them running up to that point and further on for a few days. Right? It doesn't say if you're taking too much time hanging around at that top little bit at 15,000 and beyond, it's a danger zone. So first reason is please don't spend too much time. So that's a very easy one when you have cut offs like that, you can pull them off saying, hear the numbers, hear the rules. So I don't even have to get into the whole emotion of it. Otherwise, it's like, listen, you're not well and probably need to get out. Yeah, I do. But that becomes a little bit more trickier. You haven't done it. Here's the cutoff. You're out. And you know, that's the reason is the safety part of it. But it becomes a good reason to you know, those are the rules I mean, come on, we have to have some standards and some you know, so the other part to this cutoff is what percentage I do. Do I want as an organizer to be running versus walking tapes. And one of the years we had someone do 111 pretty much all of walk. And I cut off like four hours courtesy that saying, listen, I want 25% at least if not more running. So it kind of started from there. So there is this it's not a glorified track. Right. It is a run. Of course, it has a lot of walking. You can't run at 18,000 feet. I'm not happening. So when you're doing those distances, obviously, you will walk, I'm assuming like 10% of the time, or I don't know what the math is. But I'm assuming that of these five people who did the 555. How many of them were Indian? Ashish Ashish is from Pune. And he had come first year two years ago for triple one. Last year came for triple three. So he skipped triple two. So did triple three. We don't have a 4444 and for the 10th edition, I wanted to do a special 555 all that. And you're like, this is awesome. Let me try it. So last year, he got there just 31 seconds before the 72 are cut off. He would have counted as a DNF did not finish. Had we taken that much longer? So we were again for Ashish, I wasn't sure if he had signed for a bit too much. And he did amazingly well. So he still adds almost six hours to spare this time. Wow. Out of the 132. So 126 hours something. So two Indians out of five, but one finished. Two Indians out of five, one finished. So this again, like in terms of I'm just going to now go into a slightly larger conversation about ultra running in India. Like, I'm sure 10 years you've been organizing this event. I'm sure you have decent amount of math about how many Indians have taken part. Has there been a growth in the numbers? And is this is this like translating? Is this like something you see going upwards? Is there any greater insight? You can give me about this because Indians, we're not tremendous at marathons. We're middle distance people, even a even an even an Olympic athletics. Right. And so I'm trying to understand if ultra running is perhaps where is this? Do you see this? That's actually the two points here, right? I mean, one is about that amateur mass level. And second is this whole Olympic part. I think we've got something here. So when we talk about ultras, I think Indians have a very, very good chance at the very highest level. So two years for three years now, we've had the local people taking part, the dark scouts. And the time they did 411 was better by four, five hours versus other foreigners, very good runners who had come along and done it. Right. Like as good as that like four, five hours, we're talking not minutes. Right. Again, it's about exposure. Now imagine there's a gentle, you know, the there's this whole race, if it were you know, which is at 11,000 feet minimum that they're living at. Right. So they expose their bodies getting used to with less oxygen performing at whatever level they're doing. It takes us a regular, you know, plain person like 10 days to get that kind of acclimatization. And they already have it. Okay. And they're good runners and all that if they can do. So we have these pockets in India, I think, Ladakh being one of them, waiting to happen at the highest level, marathon or beyond, I think we'll do very, very well. Men or women, I think, because both are there, they're acclimatizing very, very well. So I think it's a matter of time. Again, look at it the other way around. It was only 2005 or six, the first Bombay marathon happened. Right. So it's not been a very long time, 14, 15 years in total for the whole country that running has become the thing to do. Yeah. Yeah. I remember 2004, five, I would come back, you know, from London or Nottingham or whatever, even six 2006, seven, I would be in India gate or around there on a Sunday. I or maybe one more nutcase would be there at six. And by like a, say a nine, 10, when I'm starting to run a little longer, no one at all, right. And anyone would see me would be like, which he'll get your types, you know, that has totally changed. Go at a 10am on a Sunday now around there, probably 10, 15 cities across the country. And you'll find more than 100 people there. Okay, at that late, I'm not talking about early morning. So of course, mass level is changing. And I'm of the opinion and sports world, if you don't have a base, and if you only keep working with the fives and the 10s and all that, you know, it's, it's a game on which I don't know, it's, are we making a fool out of each other or what, but you need a solid base. And I think what running is doing is giving you fitter people generally fitter in the sense, overall fitness cardio is very important. And if you can't stand on your two feet for long, and you want to either do, do you know, your martial arts or swimming or badminton or whatever football, it becomes a very basic requirement. So you don't have to be running marathons to run, to pick up running. It's fundamental to any sport. But middle and marathon and beyond is where I think we can, at Olympic level, really start doing something. But remember, it's only been a decade. You know, so I think results will come. I think, yeah. In terms of the gender issue, like, I mean, at LALTRA itself, like, what do you see? The second year, we had a lady who was asthmatic. She was 45 or 46 years old. And she came in first beating someone who was previously a professional boxer. So the guy was, his comfort zone was when there was pain, right? I mean, he told me that and that's on video somewhere. And this lady, you know, like asthmatic at high altitude, you know, finishes the race, I think beat him by like three hours, four hours or something like that. We know medically that women are far more when it comes to ultra run events. They're better off. So it's not like one of that, you know, she did this. Women tend to beat men, you know, at longer distances. It's not a very infrequent thing. And again, it goes back to our biology and, you know, our evolution. The whole nine month pregnancy that happens for that they have the fat bit a little bit more. Fat is far more important if it's a longer distance. So biologically, they're far better off. Pain threshold. So since I deal with pain as well, there's something called male pain. There's something called female pain. So male pains right there should be at nothing. All right, female pain, they can take a lot. So as much as we men would think they can't, surprisingly, is the other way around. I mean, also, you must have also encountered this when you were talking to different people or observing different people in terms of genders, like, was there a difference in the way that they were perhaps psychologically approaching the event or is it similar motivation? It was similar motivations. I mean, women spoke more openly about running being a stress buster, you know, that it helps me cope with my stress. So I think the women spoke largely about their emotional connect with it. Men didn't. For men, it was performance, it was endurance, it was my potential, things like that. You know, so but for women, it was just all of that plus the emotional bit. Now, I think we should also like sort of wrap this up, get to the next checkpoint in time. So I want to know, like, what is the, what are you thinking of in the future? And I'm being serious, like, I mean, are there longer distances or is this like something else? Is it expanding to maybe different destinations, an ultra event somewhere else? Like, what is, what do you think? So as much as, you know, people think I'm the guy with the longest distance, you know, I want to make everyone run the longest in the craziest of places. The game changer was a 55 kilometer this year. So Indian participation in our event has actually happened because from a triple to being the original distance, we started a triple one. So that little step. Yeah, so as much as people think of the triple five because that's what, you know, the media catch is the triple one helped Indians step up because that missing step wasn't there. That step was missing, right? This year we did a 55, which was never the plan because, you know, I mean, come on, you're supposed to be a certain reputation to maintain all that. No, 55. Totally. It was phenomenal because the qualifying was if you've done a marathon, you can come along. We did get people who really had no clue what they signed up for. So it was very tricky. So it was like, you know, you're running a like a college, a university and suddenly say, let's do a pre nursery, right? If you think about it, it's a bit like that. So you have to babysit them. You have to kind of really be careful with them, with velvet gloves, really take care of them. It was actually classic because that's what we need. We need that first step because math is everywhere. About getting it longer, seriously, there's there's no into how much. I think it was three years into this race and, you know, with a few other friends from one from Canada, one from New Zealand, we were planning a few more of us if in a relay format we could run across the whole globe like that. But I know in a relay format, a marathon each, everyone that just does a marathon every day kind of a thing. And there's no into it. So 555, I just like the sound of it. It's great sounding. There used to be a soap earlier, washing powder, all that stuff. So, you know, how bad can that be? Right. So I think number wise, really, there's no need to go more and more with it. About other places, I'm very, very kicked about people who don't actually move, getting them excited to do a little bit more. Just get up, you know, do that 10 squats every day. And if I'm not mistaken, the two of you have collaborated on something. Yeah, it's actually called that's a move, get fit in 15 weeks. Yes. So I mean, people who don't move, you're trying to get them to 99% of us are not moving enough. So as much as today, there's a lot of talk about physical activity, sports, all that. When at least I, we were growing up and probably you guys do, you're younger. But the point is, it wasn't so much about you come back from school and you play a sport. It was about go have fun, you jumping in the street and just doing random stuff. Right. Today, when there's so much more talk about it, it's very ironical. We aren't doing enough. So, you know, these academies are there and all that, but you're not moving enough. As much as you go to the gym, as much as you go to those academies, those kids, 23 hours, they're not doing anything. And I'm talking about the active people today, you know, inactive, I'm doing even that. And that's 99.49% intense. So very excited. Can we get those slopes to get moving? Because I think that's crucial. That's also plays the role of expanding that base because you start moving, then you start running. You never know where the talent is. And then we forget the basic. So I think what I really like about what we've gotten in the book is, you know, how do you breathe right and basic exercises that just get the body going and the muscles moving. So I think we often, whether we want, so psychologically it's like, oh, let's just run. Let's just start running. But I think what we're trying to tell people is let's get started with the basics, build you up and get moving. So I think that's where we are at with that. I don't know if you want to add something. There you go. So that's it. You watch this for 20 minutes, put away that packet of chips and get moving. That's our show.