 I'm trying to have these conversations with Christians, because they speak a lot of love and compassion aspect, which is all lip service, unless you actually apply it. You care more about animals than people. I care about the victims. What victims? Animals are the victims. But they have no higher consciousness. Says who? God? Yes. So God gave him a brain. And science. So why did God give him a brain, no consciousness? Don't put your finger down, mate. Excuse me. Put your finger down, buddy. All right, so you want to act like a hero, do you? Would Jesus Christ work in a slaughterhouse decapitating animals? I mean, that's a cop out. Because I'm talking about animals being decapitated here. I don't have a problem with that, though. How do you know God's not working through me right now? Because you've just said you're not baptized. Shout out to all the vegan Christians out there living true to the principles of Jesus, love and compassion, respect, justice. Come. Come talk to me. Oh, really? Come have a conversation. Does, well, come and talk to me about it. Well, come and educate me. The meat industry is the devil's work. Is that true? Why not? They torture animals in the meat industry. It's definitely not inconsistent with Jesus' values, is it? Yeah, if you eat tortured animals, it's not very compassionate. Hello, mate. How are you? Yes, we do. Oh, that's me. Don't put your finger down, mate. Excuse me. Put your finger down, buddy. All right, so you want to act like a hero, do you? Do you think Jesus would work in a slaughterhouse stabbing animals to death? He's still a few sheep. He's stabbed sheep to death. For what, taste pleasure? Like we do in the meat industry today. Would he torture the sheep first? Just asking. Probably not. What's the point of having a pan-faced with injecting chemical stuff like meat flavor? They inject animals in the meat industry. What are you talking about? You come up aggressively and start pointing your finger at me. I'm not a piece of shit. So just tone it down a bit. You're a security guard. You're not a hero. Said dominion, that could be nurturing, caring. Would Jesus work in a slaughterhouse stabbing animals to death? Would Jesus work in a slaughterhouse? I'm not promoting Bill Gates. Would Jesus work in a... I'm just asking, are you promoting Bill Gates? No, I'm promoting Jesus' values. Would Jesus work in... No, I'm not promoting Bill Gates and... Not at all. Compassion. I never said that. I never said that. I never said I'm promoting Bill Gates. I'm promoting compassion to animals like Jesus Christ would want. Look at a slaughterhouse. What does your conscience say? God is speaking to you. It's wrong. No, I'm talking to you because you have moral responsibility. God is watching. But wait a second. If you're pro-life, you wouldn't be killing animals if you're pro-life. I can't hear you. You're saying God's creatures are dumb? That's not very Christian. You're not smart, mate. All right? This is a free country. I'm acting legally. We're allowed to film. I'm allowed to hold a sign. I'm not saying anything about... Okay, then what is your problem? Jesus never sacrificed anyone. So Jesus stabbed a lamb to death. Is the meat industry a sacrifice? Is the meat industry a sacrifice or is it for taste? What about God gave us seed-bearing plants? You don't have that type of power. I'll be completely respectful, peaceful to any police officer who tells me I'm on private land. No, you're actually being a bit bizarre and weird. But that's cool because you're allowed to film me. It's fine. We're in a public space, remember? I'm not a hypocrite. This isn't about attacking the people. This is about having them be consistent with the values they espouse. You know, if you have values like love and compassion, respect and justice, think about Jesus Christ. If this is the prophet you believe in, they're hugging the lambs in that nativity scene. They're not stabbing them to death. And I guarantee you, if Jesus walked today, he would think slaughterhouses, factory farms, our exploitation and cruelty to animals was a moral abomination and needed to end. He'd be out the front of slaughterhouses stopping the trucks full of pigs before they get gas to death. Jesus would. So what would Jesus do? Ask yourself that, Christians. I'm not your enemy. I'm trying to help you understand that these values of justice and respect to animals are consistent with your values. That's what I'm trying to show you. Is this true? No. Why not? Have you seen factory farming in Australia? Do you think this is Jesus' work or is this devil's? What do you think? Yeah? He taught men how to do animal farming. So what do you think of factory farming in Australia today? So mostly animals in farrowing crates being tortured, they get killed in gas chambers, pigs which causes them immense suffering. I don't think that's completely accurate. Well, I've been animal rights activist for seven years, so I know exactly what happens. And how long have you been Christian for? For my life. For your life. And what are the values of Jesus Christ? The values of Jesus Christ is to worship God the Father. Isn't Jesus Christ also God? Yes. Okay. And what do you think? Would you say love, compassion, respect, justice are values of Jesus Christ? I've heard him speak of those things. Yes, true each man, yes. But not two animals. Well, animals are placed under us for our own benefit to eat. Well, I hear the words dominion, but I don't hear torture and mass kill. Dominion means angels. Okay, but dominion can, when you have dominion over the earth, that doesn't mean to destroy the earth, does it? Does it? What do you mean by destroy? Who's destroying it? I'm saying the word dominion doesn't necessarily entail. I'm asking you a question. How are we destroying the earth? Through animal agriculture. I disagree completely. Disagree with scientific consensus. I don't like the term scientific consensus because there is no such thing. Okay, well... Science is stating our hypothesis and attempting to either prove or disprove it. Let me ask you, is torturing animals Christian? Who's torturing the animals? Do you want me to show you? Yeah. I can show you what happens in the meat industry. I mean, have you ever seen... What meat industry? Australian meat industry. Okay, that's fine. Who's the actual owner of the factory? There's factories all over... No, no, no. I'm asking a specific... All of them. No, no, no. I'm saying every factory farm. I doubt that seriously. I'm asking... 80% of pigs. I've seen this footage before. Absolutely. Is this Christian? What are they doing? They're gassing... Well, of course they're gassing them. How else do you want to kill them? Well, I don't want to kill them at all. That's the point. They're struggling in CO2 gas. Is that Christian? Well, I don't know what's happening. All I know is that you feel... Yeah, that's great. Talking about scientific consensus, which I disagree with, I would love to hear someone debate you who is just as informed as you are. On the meat industry, they would think it's an abomination. This is killing chickens strung up by their ankles. That's how you kill chickens. That's how they... That's how Australians... That's how you have to. You have to string them up and then break their necks. Why do you have to kill chickens? To eat them. Oh, really? Why do you have to eat them? Well, otherwise, you don't develop muscles and you don't grow. You don't use your brains. Oh, really? Is that why I'm stupid? Why do I have muscles? Well, because you eat a lot of legumes, I assume. I just eat enough food that my body needs. I'm bigger than you. Well, because I'm... So, does God say you need to eat them? No, no, no, no. Wait a minute. Hold on. I'm a woman and I'm more God, which means I'm very small. Are we on public land here? Are we on public land here? No, you're on... Public? Yeah. That's okay. He's not bothering me. We're having a discussion. But you can stick around if you want. No, I'll hang around and just watch if you want. As long as we're allowed to be here. Okay, thank you, brother. Where in the Bible does it say you... It's mandatory to eat me? Um... Mandatory. That's an interesting word. You have to. Well, you don't... Does Jesus say you have to eat animals in the Bible or does God... Well, it's... Jesus Christ doesn't talk about eating animals because He doesn't have to. And I suppose... Do you have a choice? Do you have a choice? Just wondering. Yes, of course you have a choice depending on what you want to put into your body. Jews don't eat shellfish, for example. Jesus Christ gives you a choice whether or not you have to eat pigs and chickens and cows in the Australian meat industry is what I'm asking. That's two separate questions. That's the same question. I'm asking, you have a choice right now to boycott these industries. But I don't want to boycott them because I don't think they're doing anything wrong. They are demonic industries. I disagree. Listen. No, no, no, hold on. When you say demonic, you are being very flippant about something that is very real. Yeah. Well, if that's not demonic, what is? And if you are accusing these farmers of being demonic, that's incredibly injustice... Human beings can act in a demonic way. Sure, but you have to give them the benefit of the doubt first. You go in with your hidden cameras instead of interviewing the actual farmer. Of course, because they're going to lie. Human beings are deceived. You could be deceiving me right now. I'll show you evidence. That video might be from Indonesia. So you'd rather believe the farmers who make money than me. I'm asking you a question. I do not know where that video has come from. It could come from China, where the standards are... Why don't you solve the problem and look into it for yourself so you don't have to listen to me? Brilliant. Correct. You believe the Bible. I have looked into it and I love to eat pork products and chicken products from Australia. You might have been Christian to eat pigs. Yes, it is actually. No, it's not. Yes, it is. It's in the Bible. Is it? Yes, it is. The Old Testament or the New Testament? The New Testament, darling. Oh, not the Old Testament, though. That's correct. So originally, you weren't supposed to eat pigs. But I'm a Christian, not a Jew. And what about the Garden of Eden? Do they eat pigs in the Garden of Eden? Probably. The Garden of Eden was vegan. It was a perfect paradise. God's perfect paradise. True? That's... I... You're a Christian. Tell me, is it true? All I know is there are only... Yes, I know. Is it true? It was... God's perfect paradise, Garden of Eden. Garden of Eden had Adam and Eve, and that's it. They ate... God gave you seed-bearing fruit. And He gave us animals for Adam to have dominion over them. Dominion doesn't mean destroying, killing mass torture. Well, okay. Again, it's a loaded question. You can kill the animals to eat them. Of course, you can't torture them, but I do... They are being tortured. I do not think that they are being tortured. And I do not know where that video is from. Who knows where it could be from? Would an animal prefer to not be killed? An animal has no conscious. It has no consciousness. It does not think. It only has the lowest faculties. It only has instinct. So animals don't think. It does not think. Correct. They only have instinct. And only humans think. They only... Only humans have higher consciousness. And so human... No, not saying higher consciousness. Do... Are animals sentient? They have lower consciousness. Are dogs sentient? What do you mean by sentient? Conscious. No, they are not. So dogs are not conscious. That's correct. So what are they? How are they moving around and stuff? They have a lower faculty of instinct. So what is their brain for? Their brain is for moving their arms... They're moving their legs for eating, for breathing. So they're mindless, soulless beings. They are soulless, correct. Okay. They are soulless. We are the only ones who are soulless. So we can torture animals? We are not torturing them. Again, you are saying that they're torturing and you have no proof. Are you against torturing animals? Yes. Why if they're soulless and don't feel anything? Who cares? They're not sentient. Conscious, they won't feel suffering. So I can torture animals? If you like. Okay. And you have to deal with God. You were Christian. No, why would God care? He created them for us. No, He does care. Okay, so God cares about torture. Do you see how you're contradicting yourself? No, no, no. I'm not contradicting. This is what I'm saying. So does God care about torture or not? Can I finish the sentence? No, because you're jumbling around. I'm not... You're jumbling around because you keep interrupting my sentence. Finish your sentence. Let's say the fifth commandment says do not murder, correct? It's the third commandment, now shall not kill. The fifth commandment is now shall not kill. I'll take your word for it. Now shall not murder is the fifth commandment. Now, if you torture puppies and kittens, you're a psychopath. But you're not murdering them. Okay, fair enough. If you murder... Is torture consistent with your values? No, it isn't. Why not? They don't feel pain. They're thoughtless beings. They feel pain, but they are... They're thoughtless beings. They don't have a consciousness to experience. That's correct. They don't have... But they have pain. So who cares if I torture an animal then by your metric? Because they don't feel it. They're not conscious. They do feel it, but they do not have consciousness. Well, they're not conscious. No, you're confusing conscious as in awake with consciousness. You're confusing awake with awake. What's consciousness? Consciousness is I think therefore I am. You mean self-awareness? Correct. But you can still feel pain if you're not self-aware. Correct. So you're saying that human beings that have a mental handicap that are not self-aware, it's okay to torture them because they're not self-aware. They are self-aware. Who said that they're not self-aware? There are certain human beings who have less faculties and there are heaps of them. They are... We protect them. Wait, wait, wait. But they do not lack self-awareness just because you're stuck in your body. Of course, babies don't like... Babies lack self-awareness. What are you talking about? Of course, human beings lack... What do you mean? Human beings lack self-awareness. No, they don't. Of course they do. So you're saying there's certain... I'm talking about the human beings that don't, that can't conceptualize who they are, but they are aware, they're conscious. Because what matters? No, I disagree. I believe all human beings have self-awareness. And how do you prove that? I don't need to because God exists and he fills us with his love and... So did God say that animals are not self-aware? Yes. In the Bible? Where? I don't... It doesn't say it in the Bible. Exactly. So why do you believe it? If God didn't say it? Because you... Animals lack a higher consciousness so they have no self-awareness. Did God say that? Why does God need to say it? Because you believe in God. Yes. You believe in the Bible. So why are you espousing things that are not in the Bible? Are you God? I believe that there's bitumen on the road, but... But why do you... Where do you believe... But it doesn't say it in the Bible. ...stem from science or God? Why can't it be both? Or is it just intuition? Because you're making very serious claims about animals, justifying their torture. That's why. You're justifying their torture. I'm not justifying their torture. I am questioning whether you are a bit too much of an activist and you are not looking into the truth and you are not giving these farmers the respect that they deserve. Who cares about farmers? I care about rights of people and animals. Farmers are enslaving people. I don't care about the farmers at that point. I care about the victims. You care more about animals than people. I care about the victims. What victims? Animals are the victims. But they have no higher consciousness. Says who? God? Yes. So God gave them a brain... And science. So why did God give them a brain no consciousness? No, the declaration of... Have you heard of the Cambridge Declaration of Consciousness? That is science. Well, it's... We'll post it up on the screen right now. I've never heard of it. It's okay. There's a lot of things you don't know. And that's fine. There's a lot of things I don't know about Jesus Christ. And a lot of things about the world that you don't know. But you're trying to justify something really horrible and I'm saying it's the devil's work. Why don't you just look into it for yourself if you think the devil deceives people and causes evil? I think you're deceiving me. Well, then why don't you try to find out the truth? But I have found out the truth. So when you look at animals suffering, do you care? Does it hurt your heart? Well, of course I care because I would like... Then who gave you your heart and your conscience? The Lord did. So why do you care? So the Lord's speaking to you there? Of course. So then it's wrong? What is wrong? Torturing, cutting animals' heads off for a sandwich. No, I disagree. So sandwich justifies all that? Yes. Okay. I think we've reached the point of your beliefs. I think they're very horrible and I don't think they're consistent with the devil. This is demonic. Because I'm just looking to an animal's eyes. Are you a Christian? There is a soul inside of animals if you believe in a soul. No, I do not believe there is a soul in us. And humans, certain humans are soulless. That is incorrect. Demonic, possessed creatures. They all have souls. If you believe what the devil does is evil. Are you a Christian? They're doing the devil's work. Sorry? Are you a Christian? I may or may not believe in God, but I may think that... Okay, so how can you believe in the devil if you don't believe in God? I'm just fitting your belief system to help you out. But then it doesn't make you make sense. Why not? Because you talk about the devil, but you don't believe in him. Yes, of course I do. Exactly, so I'm fitting this to fit your beliefs. Yeah, but it doesn't make sense because you've not done the research. So what does the devil do if it's not those slaughterhouses and factory farms? What does the devil do? The devil... Let's see. He committed the sin of pride and fell because he wanted to be God. Okay. And so he tricks people into going into hell rather than heaven. Okay. So he spends all his time tricking people into thinking that there is no God. Okay. And he's worked it on you. I never said there's no God. You said you don't have the same beliefs that I do. The Bible? That's theism. I never said I didn't believe in God. But you have to believe in the Bible to believe in God. Who says who? The Lord, for it is his word. I can speak to God without needing a book written by people and changed over time. But how do you know that you're speaking to God in the same... Who wrote the New Testament then? Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Why the hell do I care about them over God? Well, because the God... Because the Holy Spirit spoke to them. God is over everyone, yes? Correct. Exactly. So I'll speak to God myself through my heart. But how do you know you're speaking to God? How do you know you're not speaking to the devil when they trick you into thinking animals don't suffer? Because I pray unceasingly and I go to confession and Holy Communion to make sure that my soul is pure so I can listen to the Holy Spirit's promptings. Then why are you espousing things that aren't even in the Bible like animals aren't self-aware so we can torture them? Do you think that's responsible? Where in the Bible does it say that animals are self-aware? Exactly. It doesn't. But you were saying it like it was in the Bible. Nobody's scientific. They have no higher consciousness. Let me ask you this. Would Jesus Christ work in a slaughterhouse decapitating animals? I don't like to take... Jesus is watching. I know he is. I don't really like to take historical figures and place them out of their context. So let's just say hypothetically... Based on his values, logically. Based on his values. Instead of Jesus being a carpenter, let's say he was a farmer. Yes, that he would have sheep, let's say, for example, goats and he would kill them in order to eat. And certainly at the temple, there were... I've never seen anything in the Bible where Jesus was cutting animals' heads off to eat them. Maybe something about fish, but that could have been a mistranslation from fishweed, which was commonly consumed back then. But like, in this nativity scene, he doesn't have knives in their neck. They don't have knives in their neck. Maybe the people around Jesus. What do you think happens when they go to the temple to give sacrifice? I thought Jesus flipped over the table in that temple because he didn't want the animals to be harmed. No, no, no. It's because of the money changers he flipped the tables. Because they were using the temple to trade. Okay, so I'll answer my question. Do you think Jesus' values are consistent with back factory farms and slaughterhouses of today? I think Australian farmers go out of their way to make sure that they love and treat their animals with respect. That's not the answer to the question I'm looking for. They don't love and treat the animals with respect. I think they do. They're selling their body parts. How is that respect? Would that be respectful for you? We fight... Our soldier body parts? Well, the animal is bred exclusively to be eaten. And if the animal is not eaten, then it is never bred. So they're not God's animals then? So the animal would not exist at all. So they're not God's animals? They're human created? Actually, funny that you should mention that. They are. Okay, so they're selectively bred by human beings? Correct. Okay, so they're not even... Like, it's not even consistent with God's way? Well, it is because he gave us dominion over animals and so we have bred them to eat. Dominion means selectively breed them into... Correct. So we can be selfish with what comes off their body. I don't think they're being selfish. Well, they want to live. They don't want to die. But they wouldn't live at all if we weren't going to eat them. So it's okay to create beings as long as we kill them and eat them. It's okay to create living beings and when we can eat plants, that God also gave us. If you want to eat plants, you can. I used to be a vegetarian myself. Do you think plants suffer? This will be good. Do plants suffer? Well, they don't have any nervous system. Fantastic. Wow, I didn't expect that, actually. What do you mean? Many people would just say, well, they do. You just can't prove it. Some people do say that. They say that plants feel pain. Why would they feel pain? Exactly. They don't have any need to. They're stuck in the ground. God wouldn't create them like that. God created plants not to feel pain, but animals to feel pain. Doesn't that tell you everything you need to know? That's actually an interesting philosophical question. Why would God create plants to not be sentient, scream in pain, not have brains, not have nervous systems, but animals to have all those things? Well, I suppose they're in a different... Think about it. I suppose they're different. What's the word? Not genus, not species, but, you know, vegetable, animal, mineral. Vegetable, animal, mineral. They don't want to die. Have you seen a dog cower when someone's trying to boot them or a pig cower when someone's trying to hurt them? They don't know. They don't know they're dying. No, but neither does a baby. It's not okay to kill babies. Correct. Just because they don't know doesn't mean it's okay to torture them, exploit them, and dominate them. But I don't agree with the premise that they're being tortured. Well, then you don't know the industry. I'm seven years an animal rights activist. We do these investigations all the time. We stick cameras in to watch the devil at work. Stop saying devil, because we both know you don't... Do I sound like the devil to you? Do I sound like I'm espousing the devil's work, compassion and vulnerable animals and defending the innocent? Are these things the devil cares about? Of course not. If that's what the devil cares about, what does God care about? What does Jesus care about? The devil cares about... about... making you the center of your universe, which I think he has done very successfully. I just said about God being over. Matthew and Luke and all these people who wrote the New Testament... But you don't believe that. How do you know what I believe? How do you know what I believe? Because you've never read the Bible. There's also the Koran. There's also... Oh, the Koran is now that. No, that needs to change. I'm not a Muslim. I'm not... No, but it's everyone's religion against each other, but they all answer to God. So why not just go straight to the smallest? Why not to... There's only one God. Yes, but... So what are you talking about? But polytheism is... and paganism... We all should be under the same God. Worshiping is something that's not God. We all should be under the same God. Well, I agree. So God's above you? Your words, your books? Yes. We worship books more than we worship God's animals? Well, speak for yourself. Of course I don't worship animals. That's a bit absurd. Why would you worship a book more than the values of Jesus Christ? But I don't worship a book. Why don't you just look at the values of Jesus Christ? But I don't worship a book. Okay. Well, you said you don't believe in the Bible. You don't believe in God. That's... That's not true. Yeah, but the Bible is the Word of God. It's the Word of humans. No, it's the Word of God. The Word of Matthew, Luke and who? Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. It is the Word of God. I couldn't care less about their words. I care about God. Yeah, but it's the Word of God. I would care more about God than human beings who create books. But it's the Word of God. Do you understand how the Holy Spirit works? Evidence? Have you been baptised? Do you have evidence that those... Wait, wait, wait, no. This is a serious question. Have you been baptised? I don't know. I can ask my mum. My name's Joseph. What's your last name? Armstrong. Armstrong. So... My name is Joseph, though. Yeah, but... My dad got that name out of the Bible. But Protestant or Catholic? Your parents? I don't know, Catholic, maybe. So you went to a public school? No, no, I didn't go to school often. You didn't go to the lady of the law. Off the step? Yeah, she's got a little... That's pretty pathetic, though, isn't it, though? It's like one little centimetre. She's actually been... I'm interviewing her. She's standing off. So I'm your problem, not her. But yeah, one step is fine. But that's pretty pathetic, though, man, eh? Just saying. Come on. Do you want to come? You can keep talking to me. If this is where I'm protected, then this is where I want to stay. She's on private land. I'm on public land. So you don't know if you've been baptised, so you've definitely not been confirmed? I don't know. I don't know. Which is interesting, because I've had this very interesting experience talking to people who've never been baptised. Because they don't have the Holy Spirit within them, they're completely clueless about God. You can talk and talk and talk about the Lord, and it just goes completely over the heads. You weren't talking about the Lord at all. You were talking about the Bible. You were talking about self-awareness of animals. This is what I mean. Because he's not being baptised, he will never understand. You were talking about animals not having consciousness. You weren't talking about anything about God's words, except for you mentioned, Dasha not murder. Dasha not murder animals. No, I said Dasha not murder is the fifth commandment. Why don't you follow that? Why don't you follow that? I've never murdered anyone. You pay people to murder animals in slaughterhouses. I don't agree that they're being murdered. Look up the definition of murder. There's about six that apply to animals. I think they're being... You're going to use human language. I think they're being slaughtered for us to eat. What's the difference between slaughter and murder? The word is a different connotation. Slaughter meaning to slaughter an animal to consume. I just told you, are you using definitions of human words now? Because there's about six definitions that apply to animals. I can pop them up on the screen. Well, I'm not going to see the screen though. What's your YouTube channel? Well, you can just look them up yourself. Like you have God's gift. You can look through these words. Two to five seconds of research. You'll find these things out. I'm saying Dasha not murder, why don't you follow it? Is the aim to evangelise me right now? No, the aim is to have you live in consistent with, I believe, good values, which are love, compassion, respect and justice. And that should apply to animals as well. Seeing as they feel pain and suffer and plants do not. So that's clear to me what God's plan is. OK, and I agree with you, but I disagree on the premise that animals are being tortured in this country. Well, then you have to look at the evidence because I can't... But you showed me video and I don't know where it's from. It could be from anywhere. I can take you into a factory farm and put you, get you suited up and I can take you into any factory farm you select if that's what you wanted to do and you promise to keep it confidential. Aha! Confidential. No, no, confidential. Not what you see, because you can film the whole thing, film yourself in there. I mean, how we get into the place and things like that. So you're... Because we're trespassing. We have to trespass. They protect these places because they know something bad happens in there. Yeah, but they also protect the places because you're going to film things and put them out of context. How do you take that stuff out of context? The gas chamber, come on. Because I don't know where you got it from. Do you think gas chambers are bad? Gas chambers. I don't think CO2 does that to an animal. It probably just puts you to sleep. Maybe that's a little bit of a research point. I can tell you what it does, but you might not believe me, but you can just look into the evidence for that. I don't know how you form your beliefs because it's nothing about gas chambers in the Bible, so you have to use science at some point. Yeah, I mean, we could just go back to just slitting their throats like we used to. I think that would be a good idea. Do you think that's consistent with Jesus' values, slitting throats? If they're an animal that you're going to eat, sure. Because they need to be bled. Those slitting throats causes immense suffering to animals. No, they die pretty quickly. No, they don't. It takes a minute. RSPCA investigated this. That's why they don't give accreditation to non-stun Halas Lorda. Oh, that's true. Stunned them. But it doesn't mention stun guns in the Bible. Yeah, but it mentions stun guns now. So why are you talking... No, it doesn't mention stun guns in the Bible. So what are you talking about? Using technology now to go away from God. Well, I'm saying that back then they used to slit their throats. And now we have a better way of using stun guns. So we should use that. You're saying we should evolve with the times and be more ethical. I think we're always trying to be ethical. Should we evolve with the times and be more ethical? I think that's what they're already doing. That's what you just said. Because stun guns aren't in the Bible. What's that got to do with using it? But veganism is in the Bible. You know that, right? No. Yeah, because the Garden of Eden and then God's perfect paradise will be when the lamb lies down with the lion. Not when the lamb gets their throat slit by you. Yeah, but in heaven, we don't eat. Are there slaughterhouses in heaven? But in heaven, we don't eat. We don't need to. Are there animals being... So we don't need to eat animals. So what are you talking about? But we need to eat animals here. There you go. Okay, that's true. You don't need to, but I've chosen to eat them. Yeah, it's a choice, exactly. It's a choice. And now who's making this choice? I am. Or is it your taste preferences? Because that's pleasure. No, it's not my taste preferences. It's my health. Conditioning? It's my health. Okay, so at some point you're gonna have to go with the science? I used to be a vegetarian and it didn't work for me. Yeah, I mean, that's a cop out. Because I'm talking about animals being decapitated here. So maybe do it due diligence. I don't have a problem with that though. And I don't think that's what Jesus would say to me. Hey, I honestly don't. I think Jesus would say that you're maybe focusing on the wrong things and you should focus on God instead and then the Lord will tell you what to do. How do you know God's not working through me right now? Because you've just said you're not baptised. Oh, well, she's baptised, she's an animal rights activist too and she believes the same things I do. So that just wrecks your argument. You know how many... I'm baptised. Oh, are you? Oh, great! And do you know how many Christians are up? Are you Catholic or Protestant? One cent. One cent. I don't know, but I was baptised as a baby. Sure. And were you confirmed? Yeah. So you're saying that anyone who's not a Catholic doesn't have God working through them? So there's a bunch of preachers on earth that are not God's people. I think everyone can respond to the call of the Lord, but it makes it a lot easier if you're baptised and confirmed. Are you making rules for God now? Are you speaking for God? No, Jesus said it. OK. Jesus said be baptised, otherwise the Lord won't work through you. You have to be baptised to wash yourselves of original sin because then the original sin stays and the devil gets to you. I thought we're all sinners, no matter what we do. Correct. So how do you wash away sins? Because you get baptised. And then you might sin again, which means you have to go to confession. I can come and get baptised with you right now, and then we can continue this conversation. And you can't get baptised right now. It takes a year for catechesis. What does that mean? It means they teach you everything you need to know about God to make sure that you're making the right choice. So you're judging people and restricting who can be baptised under God? No, we're not. When God makes that decision, doesn't he? No, we want to make sure that you're educated, so you know... That was not part of God's way, is it? I thought we're all God's people. This is very bizarre, this religion. No, no, no, no. Back in the day, let's rewind a thousand years, two thousand years. Being religious was something that people just were and they learnt about God all the time and it's something we don't do anymore. And so when you're suggesting that we are withholding God from you because we need you to jump through hoops... Exactly. A thousand years ago, you didn't have to... I'm willing to be baptised right now and you're denying me baptism. And then I'll continue the conversation. We can speak to a priest and he'll get you catechism classes and then in about a year you can get... So classes to get baptised, what about children? They don't have classes when they're baptised. Yes, but they're represented by their God-parents. And then we send them to school... So that's why I get my God-parents to contact them. And then their parents teach them about God and the Bible and they spend... And if they don't get taught about God after they've been baptised, they're already clear of sin? Then they will sin, they will sin and then their souls won't be pure and they're going to get in trouble. You're sinning right now, in my opinion. You're committing the ultimate sin. Now shall not murder. But that only applies to humans. Who said that? God. That's not on the tablets. What tablets? They didn't say only humans. Yeah, but their rules for humans applied to each other. You can murder an animal, literally. But I don't think you're murdering the animal. I think you're slaughtering it to kill it. I don't think I'm murdering a human. I think I'm slaughtering them to eat them. See how crazy that sounds? That does sound crazy. Exactly. Because cannibalism is... That's not nice. Why isn't it nice? You eat tortured animals. Because animals and human beings are different. They have different awareness. We made a flesh, we have brains, we have heart. We're talking about the higher consciousness and the lower consciousness. Self-awareness and lower consciousness. No, they're not. They have higher awareness. No, they are not. They don't have developed brains. I didn't have developed brains since I was... You know, you have your adolescence. Oh, yeah, that's true. You're a baby, you're an infant. When you come out of your mother, you don't have a developed brain. So they have lower consciousness. So can I eat babies? Of course not. This is a bad argument, because it applies to humans, too. So you're equating... You want animals and humans to have equity? No, I never said that. I said I'm comparing the things we have in common, which can compare any two things. I never said we're equal in every way. You have two arms, animals tend to have legs. And a little snorty nose, little pink snorty nose, and they scream for their lives because of your choices. And I'm trying to... I'm trying to have these conversations with Christians because they speak a lot of love and compassion and respect, which is all lip service, unless you actually apply it. Again, I don't know where the footage comes from, and these... Yeah, the devil put it there to stop you eating tortured pigs. Like, come on, use your heart. I believe these farmers love their animals, and I don't think that they will do anything to torture them. Why are they selling their body parts if they love them? Because they're farmers, and that's what they do. Why don't they farm non-sentient life forms like potatoes instead of chopping animals' heads off and selling them for profit? Because I think it's legitimate to farm animals. To sell animal body parts without getting their consent for profit is love. Is loving the animals? I think farmers have a lot of love for their animals. They're in an industry where they're providing food for the population. It's a needless product that causes immense suffering. And the animal is bred exclusively to be eaten, and if it wasn't eaten, it wouldn't exist. It's an interesting philosophical question. If it wasn't for your parents, it wouldn't exist. Does that give your parents a carte blanche to chop your head off whenever they want? Well, that would be the ask, not murder. But they have a lot of consciousness, babies. But... You know what I'm saying? But you're confusing... What if they're not baptised? Can I kill a non-baptised baby? But you're confusing. My point is the philosophical question of, you're trying to save the lives of animals that would not exist if they weren't going to be killed. I don't think it's ethical to bring animals into the existence, to enslave them against their will for the sole purpose of decapitating them in a slaughterhouse. They have no will. A devil's factory, right? Just so I can eat their body parts like a little sadist. Because I want their flesh in my mouth. You know, I ate their body parts for 26 years, one of the most disgusting things I ever did. And I was a gang member. Before I got sober, before I started thinking about animal rights, but I haven't always been this way. I'm happy for you. That's a great story, actually. Yeah, yeah. I don't know what type of life you've led, or whether you've seen the light, or whether you're born Christian, or born Catholic, or... So you had a difficult childhood, and you're using your activism to sort of make up for all the things that you lost in your youth. I saw a very big issue that no one cared about, like yourself, you don't care about. You said that to me about 25 minutes ago. And I'm trying to help people understand why they should care. I think you have a great passion and will to do good in the world. And I think that's brilliant. And I think... I know, you know... Why do you think it's good what I'm doing? Why do you think it's good? Because you don't care about animals, you don't care if they're tortured. Because it's giving you... Why is it good? It should be morally neutral to you. It's giving you such hope and such life and such vitality. And it's so lovely to see, because you said you used to be a gang member and you were living on the wide path, and you're trying to make your path more narrow. And I would love for you to find God in your world. I know I haven't found God. Because... How do you know God wasn't the reason I got pulled out of that gang life? Started thinking about animals. Was it? And he bestowed me with some, you know, clarity. And I started... I stopped being a violent person. I started thinking, where else can I stop being violent? And said, that's the most violent thing I do, actually. I've never done that to people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's brilliant. I actually like your story very much. So you were violent to people and to make up for it, you've stopped your violence and you're expanding that non-violence, that non-violent culture. For the same principles, but based on logic, empathy, compassion and my God-given conscience. So I think, yeah, I think the way you have a lot of bravado, a lot of testosterone. I can be pretty intense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you too. But you're a good, you're stuck there with me. I was waiting for you to walk off because it's an uncomfortable conversation. I think you're brilliant. You know, if I could recommend, you should come back here at 5pm to listen to Vespers and Adoration and just listen to the beautiful music because I think maybe God is calling you to something full of joy and hope because we've been speaking to each other. It hasn't been antagonistic, I don't think, or too much. It hasn't been so comfortable, but these conversations never are. But I think you could have even more joy, even more hope in your life. Maybe I could. And I'm open to that. You should totally come, all three of you guys, come 5pm, come here to listen to the beautiful music and just sit in peace and listen to whatever God is telling you. We're both going to disagree. We're going to have to agree to disagree. I love your passion. I think you have a brilliant story. I think you should, has he told his story on your channel? Of course, I have two millions of people. Brilliant. And I hope one day we can agree that animals deserve peace and passion and respect. I think, in my opinion, that they are respected. And if there are any industry standards that you disagree with that need to be corrected, I agree that you should go out there and change that with legislation and through your local member. But at the same time, we shouldn't sensationalise. And if people choose to eat meat, it should be their choice. Just like I'm not going to force you to eat meat against me. You do have free will. That's correct. Yeah, I'm not forcing you to eat meat. So it's a choice. It's a conscious choice that you're making to do this. And that's why I'm trying to just help you understand something. I hope that you don't equate. I hope you don't equate my decision to eat animals that have been farmed with my being violent and my with me being violent and inhumane and murderous. I think it's cold, not compassionate. It's not loving at all. I think it's based on selfish desires for the left. You're accusing me of being not loving, being not compassionate. Outside of this, you feel like a very nice person. But this is the most violent thing you do. It was the most violent thing I was doing. Remember that realisation? I have every single thing I'm saying to you. I had the same conversation with myself. Hard conversation. Yeah. Again, I'm going to have to disagree. Because we're on different paths and we've had different experiences in life, I think the Lord has called you to this in order to find some balance. What's your calling? My calling, I'd love to get married. OK. And have a family. OK. And what would you teach your children about animals? I would teach my children to respect animals. OK. And that there is a cycle, a life cycle, and that we have a great tradition and culture developed over thousands of years of animal husbandry, of animal science. A bit of euphemism. Husbandry. Sorry. Husbandry sounds like a nice word. Yeah. But that's what they are. It's trickery. I disagree. Again, you still got that little bit of anger underneath the surface. Of course. When people say husbandry, when you show them the most graphic, violent, torturous footage they've ever seen probably, they would never want to experience it. And people say, it's just a husbandry. That there is a demonic euphemism used to take something that is horrible and paint it with a nice, polite, happy brush. This is what propaganda is. I think the issue maybe with the food industry in general is that maybe the issue is that there's too much of it, that maybe it's something that we take for granted a bit too much and that we need to educate people where their food comes from. Well, I tried to. You didn't believe me. Yes. I don't know where the footage is from. So I know farmers who keep animals. And I'm not talking about keeping animals, I say, but most animals are factory farm. Ask them where they send their animals and go take a trip in there. Yeah. Go walk through, tell me what it feels like. I've been in plenty of slaughterhouses actually. I think there's been a concerted effort over many years to make sure that animals are treated as well as possible. I think so. I think so. Because you go to the supermarket and it says free range on your egg cart. That's trickery. You're falling for deception. Do you know what deception is? Yes, I do. And who does deception? Is that Jesus' word, deception? No, no, no, no. Who does deception? It's true. It's true. It's the devil's work. And if they're lying, then they have to answer for it. How are you going to find out if you can't even listen to someone showing you evidence? You can find more evidence. Would you look for evidence, making sure you're not falling for the devil's work? Or would you just go, you know what? I'm just going to fall for traditions and deceptions and trickery and go on eating out of the devil's factory. But I don't know where you've gotten the footage from. It could be from a different country. Why don't you look into it? But then they have evidence. They have timestamps. They have maps. They have these places completely mapped out. If you really wanted to find out if you were being deceived by the devil, if you believe in demonic forces, then that would be exactly where I would look. Well, I would say that if they are lying, then that is a sin, obviously, against the 10 commandments. Thou shalt not lie. Thou shalt not bear false witness, rather. What is a false witness? Is it a false witness to God or just? So Thou shalt not bear false witness. Bear false witness. It's when you lie about something you've seen. OK, so how are you coming to the realisation that animals have no self-awareness? Because that's just... Do you have evidence for that? That's just that they just have no high faculty of consciousness. I'm just, yeah, but you're saying that. Yeah, maybe not higher, but like, they do have consciousness. You do agree, because I just want to get... I want to push you off that position because it's... But you're not going to, because it's what you're trying to posit is incorrect. Because I was just talking about bearing false witness and you're spitting a lot of false facts, that's all. I don't agree. But that's cool, because you don't have to, but you could be espousing things that are deceiving other humans as well about the value your animals have. But if I believe it to be true, then it's not a sin. Yeah, but you could be deceived, and that is the devil. Then that's not my sin. That's the sin of the person who deceived me. Yeah, but now you know. Now I've made up your awareness. But I don't think you have made me aware. I think you're trying to trick me. Okay. And that could be the... That could be like, that doesn't sound consistent with what I'm trying to help you understand. Because I've got... I'm defending beings that can't speak for themselves, right? You can scream and he can scream if something happens. I can scream, I can protest. Chickens can't do anything against us. So who's going to speak for them? Now, if you think that's the devil asking you to look after little birds, who was the guy who looked after the animals? I think... St. Francis? St. Francis of Assisi. Okay. And do you believe he was one of God's people? Was St. Francis someone that your Pope... Do you have Pope's eye? I don't know. Yeah, sorry. I had breakfast a long time ago. I'm a little bit fatigued. Okay. No worries. We've been talking for a really long time, haven't we? Yeah, St. Francis, look him up. He was one of your... I don't know if he was Catholic. Was he Catholic? Oh, yes, absolutely. Okay. Did he care for animals? He cared for everything and everyone. Yeah, yeah. He cared for the Franciscan water. Okay. Maybe that's something that you might trust a little more than just some rando off the street, but I appreciate your time. You don't have to shake my hand. I appreciate you staying so long with an intense conversation. Yeah, yeah. I'm just getting a little bit dehydrated. I do this all the time. I get so tired. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it's adrenaline and all those things, but I hope maybe you go get some water and, you know, maybe you won't think about all this, but I'm definitely going to think about what you said. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And come back for five o'clock. Yeah, later. And then have some lovely music. I think what the Lord has called you to do, if that's what you're doing, to find some balance in your life, I think it's brilliant. And congratulations. Bless you. God bless you. God bless you.