 It's time for the Lawn Jean Chronoscope, a television journal of the important issues of the hour brought to you every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, a presentation of the Lawn Jean Wittner Watch Company, maker of Lawn Jean, the world's most honored watch, and Wittner, distinguished companion to the world-honored Lawn Jean. Good evening. This is Frank Knight. May I introduce our co-editors for this edition of the Lawn Jean Chronoscope? Mr. William Bradford Huey, author and analyst, and Mr. John S. Young, noted commentator and writer. Our distinguished guest for this evening is the honorable Gordon R. Clapp, chairman of the Tennessee Valley Authority. Mr. Clapp is head of the Tennessee Valley Authority. You have, you had one of the most controversial enterprises in America. And now, sir, do you have the same position today that was held for so long by Mr. David Lillian-Tall? That's right, Mr. Huey. I took, uh, succeeded two-day Lillian-Tall when, uh, when he was appointed chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission. And you've been with the TVA for about 20 years, I believe? Yes, I'm about to celebrate an anniversary. I think in, uh, July 1933 was, uh, my entry to the TVA. Well, during that 20-year period, sir, that you've been there, where you people had spent about a billion dollars of the American taxpayers' money, and you now employ about 22,000 people. And, uh, first of all, what benefits have you brought to the people of the Tennessee Valley with all of that effort? We have, uh, taken the Tennessee River, that was, uh, a river that often went into disastrous floods and obtained those floods. Uh, flood dangers are no longer, uh, present in the Tennessee Valley, except at one place, near Chattanooga. We have, uh, made that Tennessee River a navigable stream on which, uh, trade and commerce between the Middle West and the Southeast is a never-growing thing. We have, uh, helped to increase the income of the people of the Tennessee Valley, and that has, uh, increased their, uh, purchasing power and made of them a new market for, uh, industries and manufacturers from all over the country. And on top of that, of course, the, uh, greater, uh, agricultural and industrial development of the Tennessee Valley has, has increased the productivity of a great region of these United States and has, uh, uh, added new jobs for people. Well, now, uh, Mr. Clapp, that's all very good for the Tennessee Valley, but I'm interested in the people of the state of New York and the state of California and the rest of the nation. Now, uh, the consumers were obtaining power from private companies, pay large taxes from large federal taxes, while consumers of government and federal power pay little, if any, taxes at all. Do you think that's fair, that there is a consummate amount of concentration wealth being, uh, financed by the government, but to the negligence or to the neglect of other parts of the country such as our own? I think, uh, Mr. Young, there's a fair balance in equities, uh, when you look into it, uh, closely. The, um, people of the Tennessee Valley in the first place will, uh, pay back through their power bills all of the investment that's put into the power part of, uh, this federal expenditure in the Tennessee Valley. Well, in addition to that, sir, what benefits will the people of Wisconsin and California and New York get from the development of the Tennessee Valley specifically? They've already, uh, received many benefits. Just let me, uh, summarize them very quickly. In the first place, uh, one must remember that of this billion dollars, more or less, the TVA has spent of federal money. Over half of it has been spent outside the Tennessee Valley for equipment and, uh, and machinery that goes in these, uh, dams and powerhouses. Uh, in addition to that, the increased purchasing power that has, uh, come about in this Tennessee Valley has, uh, meant that, uh, more radios, more automobiles, more electric appliances of all kinds, and, uh, more products from all over the country have been bought by people of the Tennessee Valley. And, uh, it's a, it's a new market and a, and a great and growing one. And I think, uh, most important and one that we, uh, mustn't forget is that this has made a great contribution to national defense. This area was where the first atomic bomb was, was made at Oak Ridge, and it was power from TVA dams that made that possible. Uh, it's a great aluminum manufacturing center, and during the war, the fact that we had electricity available made it possible to expand aluminum production and get our airplanes in the air faster. And we think contributed to bringing the war to that much closer or sooner end. Well, Mr. Clap, outside of these activities of the war, which naturally the enabling act of the legislation, uh, called for the TVA as one of the major things to national defense, how much money has the TVA actually spent on this power development of hydroelectric energy in the Tennessee Valley? Our investment so far in power as distinct from navigational flood control facilities would be in the neighborhood of a half billion dollars, five hundred million dollars. Well, now, your insistence, sir, is that TVA is not only a regional asset, but that it is a national asset. That's right, Mr. Hewitt. Well, now, have you created the TVA without destroying values? After all, you, you acquired properties, uh, that were formerly owned by private utilities. Now, did you destroy value? Did you confiscate property in this process? We, uh, joined with the municipalities and some of the, uh, rural electric cooperatives in that area to buy existing, uh, privately owned, uh, utility companies. But there was no confiscation. Uh, these were, uh, bargains made across the table with, uh, with negotiations. And the price that was paid for those properties, uh, we think was fair, and, and, and, uh, some think we paid too much, some think we didn't pay enough. Could, could, could you point out individuals who may have owned stock in those companies, uh, or bonds in those companies who could come to you today and say, well, because you came along, uh, I lost a five thousand dollars of my savings? I doubt if, uh, any would, uh, would, uh, make that claim seriously. The bondholders in all of these negotiations, uh, came out a hundred cents on the dollar. The, uh, um, stock values, um, by those who made the negotiation for the private utilities, uh, claimed they were, uh, going pretty well. What, what is your... There's always an argument on a horse trail. What, what are your relations today with the private utilities in your area? The private utilities that, that serve around the, uh, area that we serve are, uh, are, uh, neighbors of ours with interchange arrangements through physical transmission connections. And we get along, uh, uh, very well as, as cooperating, uh, business enterprises. Mr. Klamp, I'm going to take a page out of the very fine panel discussion of President Eisenhower a few days ago in which he devoted about a quarter of that broadcast and that telecast to internal security. Now, what are the problems with internal security, with communism, with subversive people, with security risks in the TVA at the present time? I have you any problems with any committees before the Congress? We have no problems of that kind with any committees before the Congress, uh, Mr. Young. Our organization is, uh, carefully screened. It has been from the beginning. Our selection of personnel is by, uh, very careful methods. And, uh, most of the employees we have on construction, of course, and, uh, as a matter of fact, operations have been with us for some time, building these dams and these steam plants, uh, through war, through a depression, and after the war. Well, now in government employees alone, how many of you discharged in the last years government security risks? Very, very few. Or subversive? Very, very few. How many would you say? Oh, it would be, uh, less than a half a dozen. Well, sir, now, you have, the TVA, I assume, is, is approximately completed. I mean, you have now exhausted the hydroelectric possibilities of the valley, have you not? Uh, most of the dams at, uh, you're right. And, and you are now, as a matter of fact, building, uh, large steam plants in order to meet your power commitments, aren't you? That's right. We, we have a big program of construction on in there. Well, now, first of all, is this, uh, is the TVA idea exportable to other areas in the United States? Do you advocate the use of the TVA plan in such areas as the Missouri Valley, Missouri River Valley, or other valleys in, in America? Well, we're careful, uh, not to advocate it. Um, I personally think it would be a good idea for the Missouri Valley. I think they would, uh, make a more effective use of the federal dollar and the development of that stream, and then building dams for flood control and navigation power. But we don't, uh, we stick to our own areas. Well, my field, Mr. Clap, is foreign affairs. I'd like to know, is this TVA, uh, idea exploitable for such places, say, as India and the Ganges River, or in the River Jordan, uh, in both Israel and in Jordan? Of course, we all know the political conditions as such. In the latter country, that it would be very difficult. But is that a practical exploitable idea, the TVA, for either the Ganges or the Jordan? Uh, let me mention the, uh, situation in India first. The, uh, there is a development of considerable magnitude in India called the Damodar River development, in which the, uh, the officials of that agency consciously have patterned their approach to river development after the TVA. Um, their executive officer, uh, Dr. Sudhir Sen, uh, spent about six months in training with the TVA, and, uh, Mr. Mozumdar, the chairman of their board of directors, has been a visitor in the Tennessee Valley a number of times. But that's being subsidized by the government of India through the, uh, the international banking facilities available to them. Is that right? Uh, Indian capital is going into it with some, uh, substantial help from the international bank. Have we got anything out of point, uh, point four being spent there for those purposes? Uh, it, uh, I, I don't know as a matter of fact. I wouldn't be surprised if they're getting some, uh, help through point four. Now, what, what about the Jordan River? I think we're all interested in it. Could you say a few words about the Jordan River? Well, I, I think the, uh, the time will come when the, uh, uh, Jordan Valley will be more effectively developed for its water resources in order to make that water more useful, and it may ultimately be a cause of bringing those peoples together. But it's a tough, tough problem. As a final question, sir, and for a very brief answer. Uh, I can remember my people had lived along the Tennessee River, uh, Valley since 1787. And I can remember the days when they fought your efforts to take over our land. Has the, has the old obstruction died down? I think so, Mr. Hewitt. If you were to go back to your home country now and, uh, drive up and down the banks of, uh, say Wheeler Lake, where we, uh, named the dam after General Joe Wheeler, uh, that great Confederate general, I think you'd find that the people, uh, though they were, uh, reluctant to give up their land, and I don't blame them because it was good land. They now have seen a better day as they enjoy the great benefits in their building with their own, uh, efforts. Well, thank, thank, thank you, sir, for being with us this evening. The opinions you've heard our speakers express tonight have been entirely their own. The editorial board for this edition of the Launcine Chronoscope was Mr. William Bradford Huey and Mr. John S. Young. Our distinguished guest was the Honorable Gordon R. Clapp, Chairman of the Tennessee Valley Authority. 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