 Stink Tech Hawaii, Community Matters here. The easiest. Okay, we're live. We're back. It's G with four o'clock already on the first business day of the year, the first original broadcast day of the year. Think Tech, broadcasting, original talk shows, five a day, six a day, six a day. Sometimes seven or eight a day, and 24 hours a day. We keep on broadcasting our earliest stuff. And this is G, we're 17 years old already. It's older than a lot of people I know. Anyway, today we have a really special show, Humane Architecture, and Martin de Spang is still in Europe, so I'm sitting in for him. And our special guest today is Tonia Moy. She is with what? Fung and Associates. Fung and Associates. Right. And she's a historic architect. That doesn't mean that Tonia herself is historic. She's still pretty young. With the architecture she studies, that's historic. And she is the former president of the Hawaii Dokomomo Society. What is it? Dokomomo, right. Dokomomo, Dokomomo Society. Not the Dokomomo Japanese phone company, but no, the documentation and conservation of modern movement, of the modern. Okay, M-O-M-O. Modern movement. Right. Right. But Doko, what is Dokomomo? Dokomomo is documentation and conservation. Okay, okay. All right. What does it do? What does it do under you? Party? No. Besides that, we do actually try to do documentation by doing photo, we call them Dokofoto events, which is, you know, we want to do one of the Capulani Miracle Mile soon, because it's disappearing quickly. So we do documentation. We have a website, we have a library, a digital library, which we have been working on for five years. Actually our organization is pretty young. It's only like five years old now, five, six years old now. And then just wanted to revisit our Capulani Boulevard was our 2013, one of our first tour days. Oh, you mean the AIA tour days? No, it was Dokomomo tour day. Okay. Yeah. We wanted to revisit it since a lot of things are either very threatened to be gone soon or actually have gone already since the time we did the tour, so, or have been completely changed. There's all kinds of implications of that and historical, may I use that term, implications of that. But let me ask you, what is it to be an historic architect? Do you have to study special? Well, you just have to do a lot of historic projects is basically what it is. And you do have to know a bit about history because, you know, for, well, for me, you know, like the architecture is always sort of a representation of the time and the culture. Life as it was at the time. Yes, right. And there's reasons for things being designed a certain way, so in order for you to understand that, you have to understand a little bit about that, what was going on at the time. It must be hard in Hawaii because Hawaii has no sense of architecture. Eclectic would be too fine a word, junk architecture is everywhere, isn't it? Well, I would say you have to take a closer look at it. It's not always junk. It's just like you have to take a closer look at it. And I think our tour days, if you come to the Dokomomo tour days, you'll see like some things are, I think at first glance, people don't appreciate, but if you look closely at it, there's so many things in it that were built, and you have to go back and to think of why they were built a certain way, and then you sort of understand things and then appreciate it more. I think that's the whole thing. So you're looking, it's like, it's prouced, you're looking through the keyhole into your past, and the building is the keyhole. The building shows you the past, so you have to interpret the past by looking at the building, whatever building it is. That's a very good way of putting it, yes. And so the building represents this past history, and without the building there, that part of history kind of goes back. That's kind of sad, actually. Yeah, that is kind of sad. So you're kind of an historian. So, you know, let's, now the Kapiolani Boulevard project, that's a Dokomomo project, is that what it is? Well, in 2013, Dokomomo did a tour along Kapiolani Boulevard. A tour meeting, I could come with you when you show me the building to explain. Right, right, right. The same way you explained to me on the AIA tour a couple of years ago. Yes, right. And so we actually had like a tour day for sure, and people, we had those, just like the AIA tours, we had docent stop along the way and talk about all the different buildings there. And because it's called the Miracle Mile, it was kind of dubbed that in the late 40s because at that time they had, and I know, we can't unfortunately show all this, but they had all these, you know, star... Well, we can show them and see if our staff can do some kind of close-up. Can do, like, a really great... Can you, I don't know if you can... Yeah, there it is. So they had all these buildings done by star architects, all the Asipovs and the Alfred prices. This is Kapiolani from where to where? From Sheridan to Kalakawa, sort of, you know, that end. Oh, to Atkinson, actually ended at Atkinson. To Atkinson, sort of central, yeah. Right, I mean, it goes on long further, and I was just, you know, kind of like spoofing up my history on it before coming, and it was interesting because I think in 1924 there were articles saying, we need to have this boulevard to relieve the traffic in Waikiki. So from 1924 all the way to 1947, I think it took that long to build it, and, you know, that kind of typical project. So when you look through the keyhole on Kapiolani, in that period, in that area, Atkinson to, say, Sheridan, what were the forces at play, was it commercial, was it residential, the retail, what? Yeah, it was actually... Well, so that whole boulevard was developed for the cars, of course, right? And then all the shops along there had parking, either under them or to the side or to the back. So that was it. It was like, okay, you know, here we are. We're going to build this great boulevard that people can park and go look at the shop. So they were all developed in that way. And what kind of shops? So they had some interesting, they had paint shops, they had flamingos, I don't know if you remember or flamingos down the road, but they had Kapiolani Bakery. And then they had car dealerships, they had a bowling alley. At one time, they had the drive-in. And then it became the theater, there was Kapiolani Theater. And there was just, you know, yeah, and you could just... This is all before my time. Yes. And I came here, which was 1965. Okay. The television station was there. That, yes. They don't think it's there anymore. No. But that was there until kind of recently. Yeah, kind of recently. And the spinning revolving building over there. The revolving building. 1441 was in there. That's why, it's called the Alamoana Building. It's kind of part of Alamoana Shopping Center, built by the same architect as Alamoana Shopping Center. Yeah. And that one there, interesting, was the first revolving building in the United States. Before the Seattle needle. Yeah, but it doesn't revolve anymore. It got stuck somewhere. They welded it shut. Oh, is that okay? Unfortunately. I know, but it's still there. I remember eating there, and it would go, in one hour's time, the complete revolution. That's right. Pretty attractive. Slowly, so you don't get sick. Yeah. Right, it's nice and slow. Yeah. See what else was there. Oh, there was the Aloha Motors, was there. Yeah, that was on the other end, right? Yeah, on Atkinson. Right. So I mean, maybe we can, well, this, what we have here is what still in, along the Capilani Boulevard. So I don't know if you want to go through some of these slides. Yeah, let's go through some of your pictures. Take a look at some. So this is a little older, actually. This is 1938, and this is an osepoth. So it's, you know, it's, I don't know if you've ever been there. The Admiral Hospital? Yeah. Is it still there? It's still there. And, you know, I haven't heard of it being threatened, but it may be because it's such a low development, but it's a very cool building. It's osepoth done in 1938, kind of modern with the clean lines. And I don't know if you can see, you know, there's that tree, and by that tree, there's a blue area. And that's actually a trough for water, for the pets to come and drink from. Oh, how interesting. Yeah, I know. It was such a little high-tech, cute little building, and thankfully it's still there, and it's still a hotbed. That looks like, may I invoke the name Frank Lloyd Wright for a minute? Sure, can he? It's that period, isn't it? I mean, it's modern looking, modern ahead of its time, yeah. Yeah, right, because, well, 1938, you had the modern, the streamlined modern, right, which is also that kind of shit-looking type of building. So this, yeah. Very sustainable design. It is. It's still relevant to the design. It's still using it too, isn't that cool? Yeah, yeah. And so the other buildings that we have, I think, online is, so this is the seaboard, and I think a lot of people will look at this and think nothing special about it, but it was done in, let's see, 1956, and it was done by Merrill Sims and Rorik. I know you don't hear that name today because they're no longer in business, but anyway, it was- Local architecture firm. They were local architecture firm. They were the successors to Charles Dickey's firm. Because- Oh, Dickey. Yes, Dickey, which is a famous- Very important. You have studied many Dickey properties in Manoa, for example. Right, right. He was the king of Manoa because 1910 or so, yeah. Right, they even named the roof style after him with the double-pitched, yeah. Treasured now for the Star Con. Yeah, so that was the successor to that firm, so. Where was the seaboard building exactly? The seaboard building is kind of on your way up to Republic. The- Oh, it's on-copulant. Yeah, on-copulant. Everything we're talking about was on-copulant. Right, right, right, right. Can I say that it's really not very appealing to me on an aesthetic basis? I think, for a lot of people, that is very true, but so that's why you have to take a closer look at it. And what was interesting about it, I'll just read some of the newspaper article that was written because it was called The Modern Hawaiian Style, and maybe can we go back to the slide that shows that seaboard finance and then, and so, and it has a new type of glare-reducing glass, which gives the effect of a person wearing dark glasses, eliminating the need for blinds. So it's kind of like high-tech of the era. And then I think the next slide shows the corner, a corner of it, which is, or just, you know, I mean, it is very clean lines, that horizontal feeling with the little bit of use of Hawaii local fat measure. That's 1347 Kapiolani. Is that the address? I'm glad you know the address, yes. That's where I came here. I worked there. Oh, okay. In the United States Coast Guard occupied a good part of that building. Oh, really? Yeah, now I remember it. And you probably hated the building. Well, that side that you showed, the side on Kapiolani that we're looking at right now is not so bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The parking lot side was pretty ugly. But you know, I suppose there was a technical feature there. Right. Maybe they treated it as high-tech facing the parking lot. Yes, it was. And it was air-conditioned. Yes. And fluorescent lights. Yes. So that's like very high-tech. The Rescue Coordination Center, you'll enjoy this. Can we go back to the building where you saw the parking lot, the same seaboard building? Yeah. See, on the last floor, the top floor. Yes. That was the Rescue Coordination Center for the Coast Guard for a long time. And they could look out over Alamoana. This faced Kona Street. This shot is taken from Kona Street. From under, yeah. And that top floor looked out over Alamoana Center. And they could do rescues. They could see the ocean. They could see the ocean, yeah, yeah. I was on the second floor. I guess they can't do anymore, huh? Well, that is funny. That is interesting. Yeah, what was the point of those? You know, that's added on after. Before, the original didn't have that. So I'm thinking it was added on probably the head shade at one time. But that's also gone. It shows you. There's a point there is you take a building that has. Show more slides that show that as well. OK. So you want to continue on to, I think, next maybe is another slide of a building that's along Kapilani. As I said, they're all along Kapilani. Oh, here, this is what we're talking about. This used to be called the Mid-Pacific. It was an insurance agency. And again, sorry that the people can't see. Now, let's just show that to the camera. Like, maybe you can see it here. Maybe our staff can actually show that to the camera. I don't know which way. OK, so you can see that this is what it was like before. OK. So it was pretty clear on the bottom. It was a very modernist building with a clear bottom, kind of a floating top. And then you can go back to the slide we were showing. And this is what happened when someone did an extension in the front of it. So actually, you don't really even see this until you go to the side. That's interesting. No windows. Right. And it had clear windows on the bottom. It looked like a floating box when it was originally built. The funny thing is that at some point, I'm not sure when this appeared, but there was architecture in Hawaii that was open. Walk-in, the lobby all open. A lot of lava rock around, a lot of openness. You see through the building on the ground floor. Anyway, these buildings are not open. Some of them used to be. A lot of them used to be. But yeah, not anymore. Somebody decided that they needed to close them up. Right. Air conditioning. I mean, air conditioning is a plus and a minus, right? It makes it comfortable and makes your computer work better. But no longer are you aware of the temperature outside. No longer do people have to design for it. Like they used to have to design for it. But now it's. So what do these buildings tell us about the times in which they were built? The ones we've looked at. So far, well, all of these buildings. Actually, a lot of the buildings, they do have things that are of the, like the fins in the earlier building to control the sun. Like the cars. Yeah. And the car, well, and then, yes, it was, it was like cars are really big, right? They were going to rule. They kind of ended up ruling the architecture. So it was very much built for cars. And it's so, as you saw from the Pacific sign, so they were very simple buildings. Because if you're traveling down the road at 30 miles per hour, you don't need to see the fine details, right? But you do need to see the big sign that says mid-Pacific or whatever it is. So it was very simple with a huge, with a big sign, neon lights often, or a big fin that goes up so that people will see it and know when to stop. So it had a lot of design implications. Yeah. I want to add, by the way, that I remember the amount of traffic that existed on Capulani in those days. Not much. Not much. I used to ride my bike to work. There was nobody there. No problem at all. In the 60s. Yeah. I think the 60s and 70s saw kind of a decline of Capulani as no longer the miracle mile. Well, 60s and 70s, I think it continued to be developed, but more like there was some banking institutions. Of course, Alamo and a shopping center. I think people discovered that people don't want to go from shop to shop in their cars, but Alamoana was super convenient. There was lots of parking. You park your car once, and then you can walk to all the shops. So the original idea about retail and stopping and going to the parking lot, going to the next one, and so forth, that got outmoded. It kind of got outmoded. Alamoana catapulted over that. Right, right. So Alamoana is the most successful of all what was there. And so yeah, so the 60s, 70s kind of a decline. And then a lot of these beautiful buildings, they've become kind of like some of them are more like tattoo parlors, porno shops, bars, and stuff. Well, all of Camropa Street was turning into that kind of thing, a lot of bars and hostess parking. And in that neighborhood, there were also factories. There were factories. They were doing mumus. Industrial. The garment sector existed right there. Industrial, yeah. At Kamoku and Kapiolana. Right, and some of the buildings still look like factories, right? Yeah, yeah. Well, you talk about the decline. What exactly is a decline? You have a certain quality of architecture, a certain sort of neighborhood feeling, and then a decline. What does decline mean? Well, and then I guess that people weren't using the shops. So people were going to Alamoana, most likely. Or even downtown, right? Even downtown in the 80s and 90s, they decided to make Fort Street into a mall because people weren't just using the street anymore as their mall. They liked Alamoana, I guess. So then the shops started shutting down. And then what could be on there? So it's financial institutions. So for a while there were some, and there is still some really nice banks. And there were things like pan and building, right? Comes up in the late 60s. Because they tear down the small little building there, tear it down, build some shops on the bottom, and build a high rise. So there's like a couple, there's the Chateau Bleu. And they're still relatively old. I mean, they're built in the 60s and 70s. But it was kind of when the shops were not being... This was the stage after the original stage of shops. Right, right. And then now they're going, too. Yeah, they are. Gee, the Blue Chateau Bleu, what was it? Yeah, that condo. That was a condo. It was one of the early condos in the 60s, I think. Yes, it was. Yeah, by Ed Bauer, I don't know if you, Bauer, I think Martin did a whole episode on Bauer at one time. So yeah. And then, well, I think the later slides I have show like some of the buildings that are threatened quite immediately, the Kenrock Building and the Boys and Paint Building, which are really, I mean, I think even non-modernist would appreciate the architecture of those buildings. So maybe we can see some of those slides, too. Yeah, let's see some of those. Now, that's a pretty block, don't you think? Right, that's... I enjoy that block, that's gonna... That's gonna be gone. It's gonna be gone. Yeah, they're gonna be building condos there. That's the plan. So this building was done by Limon Freeth and Haynes, which is the precursor to Architects Hawaii. And so Limon was the main designer, and he loved that sandstone. So he did that one in Boys and Paint across the street. But, you know, so they did it interestingly. You know, it's kind of like perpendicular to the street instead of just one big street frontage. And part of that was to show that you could see the parking so that people knew that there was parking. Sure, it looked quite true. Yeah, and yet it's right on the street. So Architects Hawaii used to have their offices there, and they said that even the Hawaii State Capitol was designed there. So that's gonna be a really sad one to see. Because this is, I mean, I think everybody appreciates this kind of place. Yeah, it's very beautiful. And I think there's, I'm not sure what's next, but let's look at what other pictures. Well, this one is in turn. This is the Alamoana building. It's not certain that we know of, except there is talk about that it turning into a condo. But I'm not sure. Oh, the Alamoana. The Alamoana building, which is currently, yeah. I'm not sure. So I mean, don't quote me on all that because I'm not sure what happens. So this shows you the little details that are in a modern building, which you don't see at first glance, like look at the breeze blocks on the top. They're beautiful. And the use of marble for a detail and planters, it's a small little focus details, I think about modern architecture that make it harder to appreciate, harder to see really, until you get up close, maybe. So let's see what's next. What do I have next? So this building, and then I think this one here, even aesthetic. It's the HMSA building, the original HMSA building. Oh. We'll see as cool as what is called. So, and then touch the next slide. I mean, this is another one you look at, hard to appreciate, but it was one of the early precast buildings. And if you look at the next slide, it shows you, you know, it's kind of neat. It shows a detail on it. And if you look at that, it's kind of like, wow, that's pretty. It's very artistic. Yes, it is. So I mean, that's the thing with modern. I think you have to really look at the small things. I don't know, what other buildings do I have in there? Oh, this building was called the Miyamoto building, and it's actually gone already. And the condo is pretty much built now. This is on Kapiolani? This was on Kapiolani. And this was part of our 2013 tour. And since then, it's disappeared. But it's, you know, it's, again, I guess at first glance, it's just like a box. But then if you look at it, then maybe the next slide shows a little bit more. You know, it has like a stairway that's not just a stairway, and it's got these little, you know, canted kind of columns and... Yeah, I would call it part of the Kapa Kahi school. Everything going in different directions. The windows are all five-size. Yeah. It's not easy to look at. Sorry, just my view, that's all. Yeah, it's okay. Everybody has their view. But what other, what other? I can't, what other? And so now this building is, used to be the Boys and Paint building. Yeah. Do you remember, was it, was it there when you were, when you were working on Kapiolani? I don't remember actually, Tonya. Okay. But you know what, it's, I like that central piece there. Yes. And it, because it used to have the Boys and Paint sign on it. Oh, okay, okay. So that as you're driving by, you'd know that was the Boys and Paint building. Imagine a paint store, a hardware store. I know, right, expensive, what expensive? It would be. But you know, it was really cool. And, and fortune, I wish I would have a color photo. I don't even really know when it changed, but it used to have this light fixture that was on the ceiling that was shaped like a painter's palette. And each light was a different color. So I mean, that's really cool. And then it became like a, I think a porno shop or, I think that's kind of what it is. I don't know if it's still is. If you get closer to Atkinson. Yeah. The high side of copy along that hole, talk about decline. That declined something awful. Yeah. They turned it. Every time you looked, it was a lower use, you know. Yeah. And now when you pass by, it's a little scary to pass by a lot of times. Yeah, it's just scary. You know, the funny thing is you talked about how Alamoana kind of defined the neighborhood or defined retail in the neighborhood. Alamoana defined commerce in the neighborhood between the Alamoana Tower with the offices there and Alamoana shopping center with everything that was coming up. I mean, it's worth billions now, billions and billions. It's one of the biggest, most complex shopping centers in the world. It is, yeah. I think it's the largest outdoor shopping center in the world, yeah. So you, as it grew, it grew in these huge stages over time and was sold and grew some more and bigger anchors came in and the little local companies, well, they went out. Yeah. They went to Ward Warehouse, which then got. The same thing, same thing, yeah. Local mom and pops just don't have a place in this area anymore. Yeah. So you would expect though, Capulani, to go up in value, in appraised value, up in usage, up in highest and best use being, as always, condominium, right? And this whole street now, instead of turning into Fifth Avenue, which I hoped that it would years ago, I expected it would, no, Fifth Avenue was inside Alamoana. Yes. Not on copy alone. That's right. That is exactly right. And it's not gonna be car dealers and it's not gonna be retail or restaurant. It's gonna be condos up and down. Isn't that what's happening? That is what's happening. There's that, the one that I showed you that's already torn down, that's a condo. And well, at the very end, it's gonna be the Mandarin, which is gonna be a condo tell, one of those guys. And then the one that's Kenrock building, I'm pretty sure it's the two tower condo. I mean, I don't know if they've got their plan set or if there's any hope of saving any of it, but, because I don't think they're super far along, but I think that's the idea. Well, here's the big question, Tonyana, they are closing question. Okay. So you have Alamoana redefining. You have this whole bunch of really interesting buildings. Some of them really nice, others not, but some of them really nice. It was a place in which Hawaii grew. It was a thermometer. Show you Hawaii's growth from Mubu factories, to medical buildings, to gosh, all kinds of things. But now, highest and best use and all the high values in that area, all the condos, they define their own neighborhood. So there'll be more condos, regrettably, in my view. But can the condos, I mean, I'm with you on this, we need to preserve the history of Hawaii. We need to preserve it through preserving the quality architecture and seeing through the keyhole. Can it coexist with these brand new and sometimes really super ugly condos? How do you make that happen? Aside from taking a lot of pictures and putting them in your book. Right, right. How do you make that happen? Right, oh, that's a really hard question. I think maybe through zoning somehow, you know, take little bits of, I mean, you know, you can't save everything. I understand that. But you know, like take the bits of what's the best parts and then maybe just preserve that part and then try and have like architecture that matches up to at least that quality. You know, it doesn't have to look exactly like it, but it should have that quality, right? That would be great. I mean, and there are things, like you said, along Capulani Boulevard that are but ugly, or have been like mutilated beyond belief. So, I mean, those is like, can you pick those and make a condo on them? And not the, you know, not the boys in paint building. Well, let's say we decide you and me and maybe, you know, some of your architecture. We'll bring in Martin. Bring in Martin, right, and DeSoto Brown. Yeah. And we say that that building that Architects Hawaii did, you showed me whether you can see through into the parking lot with the shrubbery in the front, the square buildings. Oh, the one's, what's the name of that? The Ken Rock building. Ken Rock building, yeah. Let's say that we decide this is really an architectural treasure and there's really something special that happened and through it we can understand, you know, the way Honolulu developed, we can understand the nature of the essence of Capulani Boulevard then and arguably now. Right. So we say we're going to try to preserve the Ken Rock building. How do we do that? A parade. Yeah. A protest. Well, no, even that probably wouldn't, I think the owners have to be, have to appreciate it. It's hard because they probably wouldn't make any money by preserving it. Definitely not. You know? There are, you could sell the rights over it to build denser next door or the one after that. I believe the owners know that already. So I don't know, maybe they're going to change. Maybe we can convince them, maybe this is good. Maybe we can convince them that they could sell the rights over that building and build someplace else denser. That would be really good. Let's save the Ken Rock building, okay? That's what we got out of the show. Okay. Well, if we did, that's great. So nice to have you on the show. Thank you. I hope I did something reasonable in light of the way Martin the Spang usually runs this. But I certainly appreciated your input and conversation and your knowledge about historic property. And thank you for keeping me company here. Aloha. Aloha. Omedito. There we go. Yeah. She's, I want to say Xi Jinping. No, happy new year in Chinese as well. Okay. I don't know how to say that. Xin yin kuai lu. Okay.