 Good evening and welcome to the South Burlington Development Review Board of May 18th 2021 my name is Don Fillebert. I will be chairing tonight's meeting and with me are other members of the board including Mark Bear Alyssa Eyring Jim Langen Stephanie Wyman and Dan Albrecht also with us in attendance from the city of South Burlington Marlekeen Development Review Planner and Delilah Hall our zoning administrator so let's look at the agenda and Those of you who have the agenda in front of you will notice that we ask that if you are to mute your audio during the meeting and also turn off your No, mute your video turn off No, mute your audio turn off your video unless you're speaking with the board and you're representing an applicant That way it's far less confusing and we don't get the kind of audio Feedback that can sometimes happen. So thank you for that Proceeding on the agenda. Are there any additions deletions or changes in the order of agenda items? Are there any announcements? And are there any comments and questions from the public? Not related to the agenda as you know at the end of each Applicant presentation we leave some time for public comments, but I'm wondering if there any Questions or comments from the public not related to the agenda Okay We're now going to have our Reorganization of the board and I will turn the helm over to Marla who will share this portion of the agenda So I am temporarily chairing the meeting for the purposes of Reorganization to prevent conflicts for the chair providing a bit residing over the chair election So what I'm going to do is I'm going to invite nominations and then we will have discussion And then if there are more than one person nominated for a position We'll hear from each candidate about their interest in the position Then we will invite public comments on any of the nominations and Then the board will hold a vote And then once the board has voted we will proceed When the elected chair for letting over the meeting or dawn if the chair so chooses I mean says someone else's chair and they are not prepared So I would first invite from board members if they have any nominations For chair vice chair or click do them individually or sort of all three at once and go across Why don't we start with everybody all three at once? And then if we have multiple we can discuss them individually, okay? Um, then I'll take this opportunity to nominate don filibur to chair Dan albrecht to vice chair and elissa air airing to clerk Are there any other nominations? Is there a second for the slate of candidates that mark has nominated? so Don if you were elected chair, would you accept the elect me? Yes, I don't know the position For the glory of it, I would And if you were elected vice chair, would you accept the position? I think someone needs to please mute their audio I think they're on the phone It was color number four and they've been muted Move Thank you to lila Yeah, I understand it's a little harder when you're on the phone to find how to mute yourself Or what about the landlines? Whoa? And can I can I ask that you speak if you're able to speak up at the moment so I can identify your phone line? Another time all right elissa if you were elected to be clerk, would you accept the position? I would accept the position All right Is there any public comment on any of the nominees if you are a member of the public and you wish to comment you can Turn on your camera on mute your microphone and say your name I will now do a roll call vote Jim, are you like Jim is caller three? All right, so roll call vote In no particular order Um for all of the candidates that mark has nominated Mark bear Don filiburton thumbs up from dawn jim langen. Hi Elissa ironing Stephanie wyman I and dan albert All right, congratulations You are now the official Chair vice chair and clerk they can change your names on their uh, IDs And we will go back to meeting in person. Yes. I want to be divided the vc. Yes All right Don, would you like to um resume meeting with agenda item number five? Don, I think you need to unmute. I suppose I have no choice, but thank you all. Thank you Um a couple of reminders before we start hearing from applicants Thank you to all of you in attendance on the phone watching by video and We appreciate your joining us and your interest This meeting is being recorded And anyone who wishes to participate in the hearing should sign the virtual sign-in sheet in the chat box And you would do that so that you can Be registered as a party in case you ever want to appeal a decision by the board If if you are on the phone you are welcome to email marla at m k e e n e at s burl.com and provide your contact information Uh again, please mute your phone or your computer so that we don't catch the ambient noise in the background And we will Um We will move on to the first project Okay The first project on a agenda for review tonight is Reconsideration of preliminary and final final plat application sd 2102 of south village communities LLC to subdivide for existing undeveloped lots totaling 23.2 acres into eight lots ranging from 0.3 acres to 14.1 acres construct 22 homes and 11 buildings on lot 11.1 1.2 acre and 11.2 1.1 acre Construct a permanent farm access road and pavilion on lot 11c 1.2 acre the recommendation is limited to condition number 26 pertaining to affordable Versus inclusionary units and condition number five pertaining to wetland restoration at 840 spear street So this is a reconsideration of a former board decision And according to the rules the rules we will just focus on those two Um identified issues that the applicant wants us to reconsider The first one So patrick o'brien was here and then during Elections we lost him So dear so i don't know who was here for the applicant at this time. Is anyone else here for the applicant? Is anyone here for the applicant? Is he on the list? I saw him early if you would be caller four It certainly didn't sound like him when we could hear someone talking now. He was on camera. Caller four was not him Right He was on camera Patrick So I have I have a cell I could call him and see what's going on if I mute myself for a minute Well marla is um Doing that um, I will again from restate what the chair had stated Which is if unless you are participating in an application at the moment, please mute your camp your mute your microphone and um Turn off your camera unless you would like to speak and be recognized by the chair It just makes it easier for folks to follow the proceedings. Um, thank you Thank you. Delilah. We recognize by the chair to speak. Sure. What is your name, please? My name is larry robert and I just want to uh, have Anyone who's joined recently or after you made the announcement that you would have to um a chat registering your name within the chat for any Just a log that you've actively been You are involved in this meeting I'm sorry. What what is the question? It's really more if you can repeat to um, everyone in attendance that You have to log yourself into the chat To be recognized within the uh as attending this meeting Okay, I think that's what I understand. Yes. I think you've just repeated it. So thank you for that and If you're not able to do that, you can also um email marliktine at m k e e n e at s girl dot Remind me what the where dot comms dot comms. Thank you. Um If you've just joined and you're waiting, um, we are Waiting for marliktine to contact the applicant that we're supposed to review next to see What happened to them? They were here and then they sort of disappeared. So we're trying to Find out what's what's going on So I was unable to Reach patrick. I called his cell and got his voicemail um, so if you seems like Potentially some folks are here for the gazebo application. Are you folks ready if we move on a little early? for the for john larkin inks application for Yes, I I'm sure we are I know james You're we appreciate the opportunity to jump ahead. That's him right there Okay, so we are moving on to the um gazebo application Correct marla. Yeah, um, and then I guess we'll jump back to south village if we hear back from petrick Maybe he'll send me a text too. All right. So moving on to agenda item number seven Uh sketch plan application sd 21 14 of john larkin incorporated to amend a previously approved plan for a 23 23 282 square foot 40 care for Consists of demolishing 33 3,340 square feet of the existing building Constructing a 12,770 square foot addition for the purpose of adding 12 additional resonant Apartments for a total of 57 and other interior reservation Renovations, thank you reconfiguring access and parking and My printer cut this off adding 6,970 square feet from an adjoining lot For the purpose of constructing a memory garden at 1510 williston road Who is here for the applicant? Uh, I'm cleary buckley with spit buckley architects I'm james finley sheriffs with wagger hawks and landscape architects. Okay Skip your you're muted skip Hold on crabs and lance and skip mclellan. Okay. Thank you So this is a sketch plan review which is a very high level overview of the project Which it is not a hearing And it will give the applicant An opportunity to present to the board what they have in mind and kind of get a read of where the board may or may not Have some concerns where staff might may or may not have some concerns Whatever so there's no need to swear people in Um, but I will ask if anyone needs to be recused from us. Actually Stephanie you're recused Does anyone else need to recuse themselves or are there any disclosures? Okay Um Applicant, why don't you give us a fairly brief overview? We've read your we've read the staff report, but it would be helpful to have Your perspective on what you'd like the board to hear and know about Great, thank you for uh hearing this application again. My name is cleary buckley. I'm smith buckley architects and the difficulty is um Two buildings um that are both housing uh senior citizen The um There's efficiencies to this the design right now that we're hoping to remedy with this project the plan is to At the two buildings uh with a central wing um take down a little bit of the um What's called the north building? Um, it's it's a little counterintuitive, but the building on the Uh west is called gazebo and the building on the east is called north um, but so anyway The plan is to take down a wing that's one story wing that's on the east side of the north building which currently houses um a lounge and the kitchen for that building and some maintenance facilities and Right now there's a driveway that bisects this property and it runs right between these two um residential structures, which Is not ideal for a lot of reasons. Um But um Both buildings have separate entrances that are not very uh clear or or easily identified They have duplicate um Sort of the support functions like kitchens and maintenance things and so the idea is here is to really Make one facility that is more efficient that has um, I I think that skip sent you some floor plans After our initial application that that may be helpful to look at right now, but no, I did not do that Clary. She doesn't have that stuff. Oh Okay, well Anyway, if you if you look at the image that's on the screen that this this central bar that's running horizontal on the page Will contain a new Entrance it'll have a pedestrian pedestrian entrance at base is williston road And then the vehicular entrance will come in on the east around to the I guess the back of the building And there'll be a covered drop-off there and the two entrances sort of come into a A common lobby area which Will be very helpful for The staff and managing this facility just to know who's coming and going And then within that central bar on the ground floor, there will be a common dining hall a common kitchen The administrative offices and some Like a lounge and a recreational area And then on the second floor of that that central wing there will be Resident apartments and We are trying to create An aesthetic that is That is consistent and sort of works with the existing buildings and that also Creates, um, you know a recognizable front facade to williston road Even though people arriving by car will will come in the driveway and come around to the back We think it's important that this this facility have a presence on williston road that that speaks to Entrance and a front In it if you if you scroll down To that elevation Um That the covered area on the left Is in front of the dining hall. So there will also be places where the residents can come out Um, and either have their lunch or you know teen coffee hang out um So that's that's kind of a big picture is um, we we see this is really um A big improvement for this facility Consolidating common um resources Connecting the two buildings so people don't have to go outside to interact Between the buildings and also just making a much more efficient Sort of programmatic layouts so that The people know who's coming and going and one other thing that I should mention is that um on the ground floor on the The gazebo building We would like to create a memory care unit, which is for people with um alzheimer's or Other, you know cognitive issues that um sort of prevent them living independently and Associated with that is this memory garden, which you can see on the screen Which is um a place for the residents to be able to go outside Interact with nature in a controlled and enclosed safe environment Thank you for that overview Before we get started, I have a couple of questions that will help me conceptually understand us better So Are the two existing buildings were they built at the same time? And are they owned by the same person? They are owned by the same Entity I do not believe they were built at the same time In fact, I think that the gazebo building which is the one on the left Has actually was built at one time and then added on to Okay So did this also used to be Pillsbury Manor and now it has a different name? Yes. Yes. Okay. All right And are there two different levels of care in the building or are You know some independent living and some well if you have memory care, you probably have like assisted living what what what is the general? So, uh, I think Christina asked they is on um and Christina So right now they're both of the buildings are licensed for level three residential care And so we would like to keep the level three residential care License And then get on have a special unit license to be able to have memory care Because right now what happens is a lot of people once they reach that level of care We have to ask them to move and that's a really difficult thing. So sure. Okay. Thank you for clarifying that So is the entity that runs the programming different from the owners of the building? No, I'm an employee of John Larkin, Inc. And John Larkin, Inc. is the owners of the building Okay, got it. All right. Thank you for clarifying that So, um Show me a little question if I could Um, if they could and I've spent some time with the plan So I kind of know the answer, but I think it might be helpful If they could explain what part of the building Is being demolished and how the entrances exist today versus what's being proposed So basically it just paint us a more clear picture of existing versus proposed. Sure um I don't know if we have a drawing that it Illustrates that very well. Um, can you zoom in on the one that's that's on the screen? It so, um Yeah, the the building on On the right You can see that it has a bar that runs more or less up and down the page and then about About midpoint on the right There's a there's part of that building that goes east And has a little dog leg Um sound Yeah, thank you So that part that you're tracing right now Is the part that we're we're going to Remove and we're just going to keep the rectangular part that runs Um, up and down on the page So that that part is is The intention is to remove that Part that has been outlined just now Right now The entrance to This this building Is comes into that part that is going to be removed And it comes from the top of the page so You come in the drive off of williston and you come up and you You find a place to park and then you come Back around the back of the bar that runs up and down So right yes right there is where the the main entrance is And then for the other building the main entrance is If you look about um one third of the way up The bar There's an indentation Right there. Yeah, that's that's the main entrance for that facility And then the driveways are off of williston road There's two driveways Sort of here and here Right Yes. Well, it is the one to the left active skip It's One's an entry and one's an exit Yeah, the one to the left is a fire access that has a chain a plastic chain in front of it now There's a third one further to the right right at the property corner You can see it marl if you follow to the to the right hand side of your sheet There's a third third cut there. That's not being used And and that's the one that we're proposing to make the main vehicular entry No, we would we would maintain the other two for fire department emergency access only Yeah, so that that's the one where we would like to create the new vehicular entry Thank you. I just thought it would help the board to understand sort of the existing context and what's how it's very helpful marla Thank you. I actually drove in yesterday and it took me a while to kind of figure it all out, but that was very helpful Okay, does it do any of the board members have any questions where we start going through the staff comments? I was just curious if you could explain what exactly a memory garden is Sure, I can do that. Um, so there's a sort of a long or not a long history of memory gardens throughout facilities like this and what it does is it really gives the Patience for the residents with memory care issues Place that they can safely go outside So the memory garden would be enclosed so um and and sort of well landscaped on all sides The idea is also to have sort of a circular or elliptical path again this kind of gives comfort and people don't get stuck in corners or in sort of strange spaces So essentially it's it's it's an outdoor experience tailored for people With that condition Thank you Any other questions? Okay Delilah might you be able to post the Staff comments on the screen, please Sorry, the wrong one came up. Um, hold on a moment. All right Thank you Delilah Okay, staff recommends the board asked the applicant to confirm the total existing and proposed unit counts Or although I have to confess that I'm at home and I don't feel like that's in front of me but The um the unit counts that are listed are incorrect in in the report. Um The the number that we are proposing I think is Is 84 Skip do you You can you confirm that? No, but I I do have a note in front of me about what's there I can tell you that is north has 40 units and the gazebo has 32 units today Yeah So that's 72 now and and I I think you're right It is going up to between 84 and 87 defending how the square footage is shake out. Yeah, it's you know as we get into really figuring out how to renovate the interior We may pick up or lose one but Really what we're talking about is about 84 units and um We think that the the number in the The report is just one building perhaps It's I'm not quite sure how this error happened, but that's that's what Thank you for clarifying that I have a quick question quick question Um That impact to the residents Will there be in terms of will they have to move out or All construction goes on Yeah, that's that's a great question. Um The short answer is we don't know right now To be honest, um, coven has slowed down our our design process significantly Nobody was interested in going into really do a lot of um Existing conditions work or or anything really Until we got to a point where where it was safe to do that and um Thankfully, I think we're We're there But we We've got a lot of work to sort of just go ahead and figure out exactly how to phase this and make it happen um, but you know I think The short answer is yes, there will be this disruption. Um The construction is disruptive and and I don't see any way to Completely avoid it. Um, but I I would also say that Everybody on this team really cares about the well-being of the people living in this facility and um, you know, we're We won't we're not callous to that disruption and and we're going to be working to You know try to find ways to phase the construction that minimizes that destruction Well, presumably they have contracts, right? Or of some sort That allows them to be there. So yeah, the the contracts they're they're month to month Um, so really they can be canceled at any time if somebody wants to but I think probably once we have a concrete plan in place We will take some rooms offline and not rent them I mean also with COVID it's kind of slowed the number of people we have Moving into the facility right now too Especially with the visible apartments building. There's when that building was originally Used for senior living purposes. It was an independent building And then it kind of slowly converted to residential care as people aged in place and we got that license for that building So there's very minimal common space there So a lot of the residents desperately want that common space that we're trying to add on to so Does that answer your question Dan? Yes, thanks very much Okay, thank you. Any other comments or questions? Okay, number two staff recommends the board discuss with the applicant whether the proposed height will be below the 20 28th foot maximum Without consideration as a planning development height waivers are not allowed within the r4 zoning district Additionally buildings within the r4 district are limited to no not more than one story greater than any building On the abutting lot in the same zoning district within 150 feet of the subject Structure the proposed structure appears to be two stories. And with therefore I lost the words. They're off the screen So I recall that it said it would therefore Be in compliance or something to that effect Um, the the project will comply with the height Limits it's drawn at 28 feet to the midpoint of the slope to roof right now, which um, I I believe is how you measure the height and We will design it to comply And and um, it is two stories Okay, thank you I think I have my own screen now. I finally was able to get it. Okay. Any questions about that from the board? Okay comment number three staff recommends the board asks the applicant to describe the proposed modified programming Including which entrances will be used in what way? I think you've already done a lot of that But is there anything you want to add to that and board do you have any questions about that? I guess This is going to sort of jump ahead to some of the other staff notes. I think but um There's an entrance on the south facing side towards williston road that will be pedestrian only And then on the rear, there's um, the vehicular drop off and that would be where emergency vehicles would come as well and then There's also Loading and service entrance on the north side Which which will feed into the kitchen that's right there and so that's There's a question coming up that asks us to talk about what's going to happen there But that's why that entrance is in that corner is because it's where the kitchen will be and so there will be some deliveries and Things happen. Okay. Thank you questions from the board Okay, number four staff recommends the board discuss the second comment of the fire chief with the applicant In particular will the required maintenance effect whether the project will be able to maintain the currently proposed aesthetic I can uh head to this one As it stands there is an existing kind of fire access lane that is maintained by the ownership of the facility And we intend to do that with the two fire access Spurs I guess you could call them coming on to the lawn there They'll be snowblown and um, they'll be grass pave or that plastic sort of grass reinterference reinforcement system that can handle the Fde vehicles. Um, so yes, we will maintain those. Um, I'm sure that terry is happy Thank you Comments question board members Yeah, um, can I ask a question? So, um A question. I see that you have coming off of willis and row those two They're going to utilize those two curb cuts for fire truck vehicular access Is that a requirement because the building's set so far back from the street for fire department ladder truck access That's right. Uh, mr. Francis said that there was a situation in a similar facility where they had to literally, um Pull everyone out of the room on both floors. So we want to be sure to Give him the opportunity to get his trucks exactly where he needs him for this sort of situation Okay, because I know in the past, you know projects. He's also been concerned about the Trees that are planted where he's going to be proposing to Set up his ladder truck and stabilization And you know, I'm sure that the the the grass stabilized whether you use grass creed or some other sort of Um stable on its surface is adequate to You know support a fire truck um, I guess part of my concern goes to The aesthetic which is I don't understand safety overrides aesthetic But you're gonna have this nice grass pavilion with a nice circular sort of walkway path with these covered You know entrances and covered, you know patios and the grass creed typically ends up looking like It doesn't have that nice green sheen that they always describe, you know So part of my concern is that you're going to end up with this sort of like A rough road curb cut There and then my second Comment or question is if they do have to access the back, how do they turn around? How do the big fire truck ladder trucks turn around in the back? All right, let me start with your second one. We've shown and had calls with terry and and tested That turn radius is for their truck If we could go to the landscape plan, there is a striped zone for no park gank sort of directly across from the main entrance and That will allow terry to Turn his trucks around In terms of the aesthetics We do understand That grass creed grass paved even just having gravel within topsoil and sod on top Oftentimes does not look as beautiful as The rest of the grass Unfortunately, we need to have this This situation for terry put his truck there and we don't want to you know, increase the impervious surface If we can avoid it So, I mean, we're happy to explore all of the available products I've worked with several at different stadiums and and I think they're they're okay and they're very functional And unfortunately function trumps beauty in this case. I know I know that's what I said. I understand it's safety over aesthetics, but You know part of me almost wonders if there's a way to do the you know do the rather than having these two semi-perpidicular curb cuts coming in If you could use that sort of arched Awkward path that goes from side to side and do that as an actual rider stabilized Surface for the fire truck access and pedestrian path So it's always used and maintained and then when needed the fire trucks can use So that's our little spurs popping in That's right. I think that's a great a great Comment and I'm sure we'll look at that I have done several situations where you have a wreck path that is flanked on either side by You know some sort of stabilized grass product to allow for that Sure, we'll let's investigate that for the next round Thanks mark any other questions from the board? Okay comment number five staff and this is regarding site plan review standards Staff therefore recommends the board discuss with the applicant how they intend to use the required minimum landscaping Right, so we are doing the forensic landscape work as warranted in South Burlington We are we have a plan from 1993 showing a planting that we will make sure has the correct amount of plants We have a bill or construction value Percentage going towards landscape and also we'll need to take down a few trees for the This central wing so Yes, we have a lot a good deal of money to spend on landscape If you could go to the rendered plan we've called for you know a good deal of Perennial plantings will plant grasses in the storm water collection areas to help help beautiful beautify those gravel wetlands and I think you know we may even come back to the board and ask for upgraded hardscape and You know sometimes We're allowed to upgrade the kind of defensing and the detailing and use that money towards sort of upgrading the finishes on the landscape So as we've done before we'll provide a full spreadsheet identifying the costs identifying the costs of proposed planting and We will get to a place where where we've spent that money Thank you any other questions if they may I think this is an opportunity for the board So I don't know if she didn't Skin to a plan to provide some you know Not not correction but more like advanced Suggestions maybe things to look at this is a board that's seen Dozens of projects that have to find places to use a lot of landscaping and if anybody has any ideas Might be helpful to provide them I don't know about the memory garden, but that obviously the landscape featuring that I imagine the board will be amenable to considering for your budget and then there's The rear of the site. I'm not sure what the function is of properties behind the site and if there's any need or desire for additional offering in the rear Can we see the landscape plan please? Hold on a moment Let me just get that back up while you're finding that Delilah all I can say is and I know this is Vermont We don't have flowers around but older people love flowers And I know my mother was in a memory care facility and they had a a memory garden And it was full of beautiful perennials and it gave us a lot of reason to walk around and talk about the flowers over and over again But it was joyful So I think a lot of perennials and even some Shrubbery with winter interest. I mean, I'm not a landscape architect, but there are some very interesting jobs right, right Of course. I mean, I couldn't really do more of that. We absolutely, you know want to You know beautify these paths. There's a sort of a path around the memory garden And then there's also sort of a circular path that goes off to it comes back in the rear entrance It is absolutely our intention to kind of beautify those experiences as best as we can You know without placing an undue maintenance burden on the facility that they'll have to carry through through You know forever as Burlington would have it So Yes, I couldn't agree more. We will beautify this These paths and then as as you can see sort of around the terraces. We have kind of thick beds of Multiple different perennials. We've tried to suggest sort of flowering trees along the semicircle walk or the arched walk We will absolutely, you know max that out good They love butterflies and birds too. I mean, these are really primitive joy for a lot of people with memory impairment That's it. I think we're going to even try and have sort of areas of interactive gardening for them to part in as well. So That's absolutely our agenda Commence or input from the board? Okay, staff comment number seven staff recommends that the board direct the applicant to discuss the proposed legal Arrangement for continued access to 1516 willison road And at the next stages of review to more clearly indicate the access to 1516 willison road on the site plan That building is currently a residence. It's a house today and the the access goes right up through that center Existing what's existing today? Yeah, right through the we could relocate that access off to the right hand side and maintain that building as a residential house Marla, is that is that what you were looking for in terms of a response the information? Um, I guess we need to see that clearly and if there are modifications to that property That needs to be part Of the only modifications at this point are some of the stormwater treatment will will Dribble over the property line and there'll be an easement required for that. We anticipate that So that's the only apps. They don't change to anything on that property So if I go to the existing condition site plan I can see the access Just while you're doing that marla Um for the board's benefit this home is addressed on willison road Oh, okay. It is it is not a helen avenue house. It is a williston road house Okay All right, well make sure that that is very clear at the next application, please Any other questions from the board before we open it up for public comment and questions? Hearing none, um, are there any members of the public who would like to speak? Looks like there are a couple in the chat box Um So if you don't mind I can call on people that would be helpful marla. Thank you in the order Let's see Looks like luke and shila lefabra. Well, thank you Um, I've got a question. It was a mention about moving the cafeteria on the uh, Western western western building and on the northern side. Can you give more information about that? So, um, there's the western building, uh, the ground floor will be a memory care Wing and it will have its own cafeteria in it. Um, the eastern building which, um, It's called north Um, the the current, uh, dining area is in the section of that building that will be taken down and so within the central wing, there will be, um, a new dining area for All of the residents except those in the the memory care wing um, and that's, um If you look at the sort of semicircular walk that comes off of williston Um, road the areas in the sort of right The lower right corner of that central wing Correct and then the kitchen is in the back behind that No, no to the lower or lower left. Excuse me. I misspoke So that's actually where the kitchen is that the dining area is along that that area where you drew the line to begin with Okay, so the deliveries you were speaking of in the northern part of the building That's that's where they're going to be or is it going to be in the What is now the Vivo Um The where where you drew the the yellow dot not the line the yellow dot Just above that is where deliveries will come in Okay This is a much better proposal than what was originally, um, uh proposed, uh with the Driveway or the main entrance being on gilbert street. So Thank you for for making this this new plan Thank you. Do you have any other questions? That's it. Thank you. No, thank you. Thank you Okay, who next would like to comment or ask Mr. Blanchard was next Okay, mr. Blanchard Uh, thank you for doing this. I didn't this is the first I'm learning of this and we are It immediately and dramatically affected by this We are the house that is next to the kitchen So this is going to have really dramatic change to us and so, um Um What is being considered for noise mitigation for what will be a Large amount of traffic almost literally in our backyard Okay, good question Great. Um So as it stands, I think there's a solid six foot fence separating your property from the gizmo property as well as A strong stand of maple and other trees Um, what we've done is moved the road off of the property to allow all of those trees to remain um, so it's our intent to Uh, you're those trees and the existing fence as a as a buffer. So, um That's exactly where where you're drawing that Um And so that's our intent is to leave that fence so you won't um be able to see anything and then the trees above and Um, uh, we'll we'll also help to to block and shield the noise But just to be clear, there actually is no fence there There's not there is not The top part of the the bottom fence stops at the bottom. Oh, it's this property not the lower property. Yeah, we're pre-victory We are literally right next to the kitchen right there that one there um, I would have we can discuss this, you know, um further Obviously want you to be happy with our project and and yes, we can put a fence barrier and plantings in that area to make Sure, we can screen it as much as possible That would be greatly appreciated No problem. Yeah, um Let's find a way to connect after this and uh, we can work with you on that Great suggestion Any other comments mr. Blanchard is it mr. Blanchard? Any other comments or questions? I genuinely don't know so the tree will give you this will dramatic we've gotten used to the flow of traffic in and out of there um This will be a real change a fence soundproofing something that is a void a noise barrier Will be greatly Helpful, but otherwise I I don't have any other concerns I appreciate you participating in this meeting and expressing your concerns early on so that the applicant and the board can take them into consideration Um, and remember this is just the very first step There are other uh application steps in the process and you'll have other opportunities to Um have public input and ask questions. So thank you Don that was all there were in the chat box. Um, is was Would anyone else from the public like to make a comment? All right. Well, um, is there any further discussion from the board? I could find a way to get off mute in time. I would have said yes. Sorry. Sure. Go ahead Who is this say anything? This is pierre bouchard And if you go to the the first picture That was on the presentation With the aerial view even with Number one slide number one all the way to the beginning. Actually that one works right there. Sorry that that works Um 37 helen is the top house you see right there You just put your cursor over it That's where we live. We have no problem with what what's going on here that boundary line has changed. You see the diagonal line there That boundary line just Was done by uh larkin wiltsy and we are so glad because if you go to the first picture of the overall Packet that was put together Page one That's what it was before On top of our patio So that since has been taken the diagonal has been put up to the upper left with that Everything else is fine. So that was our main concern we had before so yeah, even go all the way to the uh cross and the top left the white cross Either way the other way To the northwest I got it. I guess it's hard. It's the drawing is not not it's not a paving It is noted in the land records right So we read this over and actually it's kind of nice because there's really no back of the building You have the front and the front and then you have the entryway in the back Which is going to be basically also maintained. So I was concerned, you know putting dumpsters and you know Cooling equipment and everything but there's really not going to be a back of the building Which is obviously the concern of people that are in helen avenue, but sure Back to the neighbor. So I just wanted to mention that we're okay. We're good with it so far Thank you so much. We it's always great to hear positive comments and supportive comments Okay, does anyone else want to offer any public comments or questions? I'm sorry. I just have one additional question. Sure. There's that There's the little bump out space that currently exists. It's between our property and and dr. Mike's property Kind of no landslides We have a little ear on the on the right side of the project What is the plan for that? Yeah, did we have storm water slated for that area with gravel wetland? No, there's the sewer goes through there. That's the sewer easement The sewer travels from the left building the the west building and it travels Or crossways across the site and out that way to the road as a victory or So that's the sewer easement right there And so that that's just going to be well on develop questions or comments I'm sorry It's a quick question. Sure. Speaking of dumpsters and cooling equipment and where trash Unloaded those kinds of things will that location change or Do we have that in the same location as it is today? Okay In terms of where Drew's property is it might be a little bit better because we're going to be taking away that trash can That's like right near your backyard through I don't know if you're still on the line, but Because it'll be it'll be moved over to where the current zebo apartments already has a dumpster That'll be the main dumpster right there So and then you will also have like, you know the delivery the bread trucks and all the stuff backing up to that area Which kind of backs right up to your backyard right now so Other questions or comments before we conclude the sketch plan hearing I'm not sure if the next step is a site plan or a preliminary plat So we weren't either And the staff notes were intentionally non-committal Because we wanted to determine whether they were going to need to be requesting any waivers Or if there was anything that was a conditional use So this application involves the subdivision of land By changing the boundary line of the memory garden and it involves a site plan Um, so they have two options. They could proceed as a PUD or If the subdivision of land meets the criteria to be considered a boundary line of adjustment They could submit a boundary line adjustment and a site plan as two separate applications So I will work with them to decide which is the best course of action But either way, um the predominant review At the next step will be of the site plan Okay, great. So we will see you again sometime in the future and I will move that we conclude this sketch plan do I hear a second? No voting, please. No voting. Okay. No voting on sketch plans. There are no binding decisions to come out of a second Okay, good. Thank you. They will do so without vehemently Thank you again for joining us and we'll see you again soon Thank you You're welcome. Thank you. Marla any work from, um, Patrick? Yes, I spoke to Patrick on the phone. He had some technical difficulties at home So he drove himself to the office and now ready and able to join us if you'd like to jump back to item number five Great. Oh, it's so good to see you all We wondered what became of you That's funny. I was I was at home. I had technical difficulties and none of my children were there to help me out So I had to run to the office. Right. Exactly. I know that feeling very well I believe I already read the purpose Of the first reconsideration Of preliminary and final plan application, so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna board you with that again Would you mind terribly if I paraphrased? No, do do paraphrase All right, so this is this is a reconsideration Of preliminary final application sd 2102 Which is the application to develop a lot to do a whole bunch of subdivision moving around the property lines And to develop 22 homes on lot 11 Um, the reconsideration is limited to discussion of two findings of that already approved decision One is the issue of affordable versus inclusionary units and the second is a condition pertaining to Wetland protection and restoration That's all I have. Thanks, Marla Patrick I I'm sure you were sworn in earlier, but let's do it again because we haven't seen you in a while Do you uh swear under penalty perjury to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth? I do Thank you So Do you have any comments to offer in addition to what marla just said patrick? No, the only thing I'd like to say is that um A couple things the word inclusionary as you know was put in The approval Inclusionary units are not applicable in the southeast quadrant. We call them affordable units And they come under They're obtained via a density bonus. So long and the short of it is include using the word inclusionary Doesn't make any sense. So we need to use the correct word, which is affordable Secondly In regards to the request to revisit the wetland It was explained in more detail to me today By marla and she sent me a little highlighted drawing so As I understand it even though marla I would ask if you please read me that condition one more time I believe that I'm I'm all right with That as already and currently conditioned and therefore would not to propose to alter it So do I like you could pull up the staff comments. I think it might be helpful to sort of have up The two conditions Um on the top of page two And we can review the of the packet for agenda item number two or oh, which one Oh two agenda item number five And I would remind the board that the same issue of Inclusionary versus Sorry, what's the other term? Affordable it is applies to the next Reconsideration request as well So top of page two, please delilah So the two conditions that pertain to the wetland restoration are shown on the plan one Says that the fence that is proposed by the applicant should be expanded and we can show that um We can show the image and I can do the drawing again And then the second says within the fence the land shall be allowed to re-vegetate naturally Though removal of invasive species shall be allowed So if you delilah could go to page three please I can draw what the fence is Page three or page four Or I guess Sorry Here we go If you can kind of zoom in to just a lot 11 portion or what is it 48x portion so A little bit more There you go perfect so I'm going to draw with a pink pen What the applicant had proposed for a fence I think So the pink pen shows what the fence was on the applicant's plans And the condition I'm going to try to choose a different color says Because this pink line is to project the wetlands the fence should be extended Like so Oh come on Like so There seems to be a little bit in today And the lands On this side of the fence Should be allowed to re-vegetate naturally and the lands on this side of the fence can be Mowed and used as part of the lands around the pavilion So marla does the pink lot does the blue line also Exist where the pink line is Yes, so we would be keeping the pink line and adding the blue line. Okay, that's what the condition has written What is your concern with that? What why are you Requesting reconsideration So there the the the request for Reconsideration really just had to do with the difficulty understanding the Northwest eats south description in the condition and We were not necessarily 100 clear on it. So And So the only We are fine with it as as now that we know where Where it's going to go, but the only concern I have Would be that storm water feature may be required to be maintained I even know they're Brush hogged once or twice a year. I don't know if it actually is a requirement But if it is I do not want this condition to serve that requirement That was a great point patrick Maybe the modification should be To condition number six Where it says the area south and west in the fence shall be allowed to re-vegetate naturally though And visa CCs shall be allowed How would the board feel about I can work with our storm water department to find a suggestion for how to modify that to Allow maintenance for storm water treatment practices And fine with that other board members Yeah, I'm fine with that That's a good approach Others any any objection to that? Okay, so going back to the inclusionary versus affordable issue So I have a question about down the line Is there are there any unintended consequences of using one term versus another In terms of perpetually being inclusionary or affordable Are there any legal Problems with using one term versus the other So don I think that condition was written mistakenly I don't see any repercussions, but I also don't see a problem of fixing it to say affordable Okay, like if you're already for other reasons, I would say it's immaterial, but if you want to fix it We're here anyway might as well Yeah, and to answer your question The perpetual afford the perpetually affordable requirement Stands under both definitions of affordable and inclusionary and I would like to see the word changed because they are both defined terms and the ordinance and inclusionary Is not applicable in this application. It's for other areas of the city Thank you, Patrick Um, so because Agenda item number six Also deals with the term inclusionary Um, affordable versus inclusionary Are we as a board saying we're fine with that too? You do technically have to open that hearing. I do. Okay. All right I'm fine with the change on this one and when we ultimately get to the next one. I will be fine with that one as well. Okay, so I guess since we're still on Agenda item number five. If nobody has any other questions, it's time to open it up for public comment or questions Any comment or questions? Fox This is paul foxman Did you I think I've unmuted myself. Can you hear me? We can hear you, but we cannot see you Okay, so let me get my camera Activated. Okay, there we go Okay And my wife Cheryl is here We live at 86 north jefferson road in south village We've been residents of south village for nine years. We were here on the very early wave I think we bought them out the model home in 2012 And our home we live in now. We've been here five years I'm looking at the map of the proposed 11 units on lot 11 And It looks to me like there's going to be a curb cut a road that is going to be exactly Across from our house It looks like dugless road. I think it's going to be called There's an entrance on east allen and an entrance on north jefferson So if you can see that you can locate our house you're going to see I don't know if I can actually use the drawing tool to Show you what I'm looking at Yes, you can use the drawing tool Okay, let's don't I would just remind you that we have a limited scope of this reconsideration Yes, yes Mr. Foxman if If your comments don't specifically relate To the two issues being reconsidered. I'm afraid we're not able to consider them Well, one of my comments does directly relate to the the present preserved land One of my concerns relates to the preserved land issue the ratio of developed versus preserved land at south village But that's not an issue. We're considering tonight Am I wrong marla No, the two subjects are this specific wetland on lot 48 x And the use of the word inclusionary versus affordable Okay, so that's very limited. What would be the avenue for us to register our concerns about the Uh, the entrance to this development directly across from our house where we'll end up being basically in an intersection Those hearing unfortunately those hearings took place earlier and um, this decision was warned according to the requirements members of the public did participate and their Decision was not appealed. So the decisions about that vocation stands as written Okay, that's unfortunate. Thank you. Sorry, but thank you for your input Are there any other members of the public who would like to comment on this reconsideration Yeah, this is larry robert I live on Let me turn on my camera here I live across the street from lot 11 in south village and I've been there for almost as long as dr. Foxman has been My question has to do with the wetlands specifically Is that lot 48 x is that the name is a lot? If we could pull that up again Where you were describing and Putting in the the fencing in the in the blue and the pink wine item there's a There's a spot where the wetlands drains into the main road, which is allen road east and that drain Runs in the wintertime and of course in the wintertime you get thawing and then you get Freezing so multiple times over the last several years Because of the runoff from that wetlands and and some reconfiguration of drainage by sd ireland South that that whole allen road east is treacherous to say the least It's an ice lake And so that Would have to be taken care of that's one thing and the second thing is I really don't understand how I hear about this hearing that has to do with a fence and And then the inclusionary or affordable housing the difference between those two word is words But I don't hear about how this project has gone through already Or a building that's three stories tall in our neighborhood That is really should be in downtown berlington not in a residential neighborhood I'm wondering if the board could answer that I will take a stab at it We we have reviewed these projects And they were all warned and I believe as The butters you must have been notified negative Through your association, but I'm gonna Let marlo speak to this multiple for notification of the butters I do have certificates of service and evidence of the prograds were reported If there are issues with warnings There are some remedies available This is the first time hearing of issues of warning I can tell you that I have not heard I have not heard of anything happening in my neighborhood except for they had some Like open house last fall during the middle of a pandemic When I'm working on trying to keep the state of vermont in our whole region of You know elderly and patients alive Uh, and and I don't have time to come into a A review of some kind or an open house if that's what they consider they notified everybody then that's not acceptable Okay, well, I understand your concern. Um, can you Send me an email And I just so I have your contact information my email address is m k e e n e at sb url.com And I will um Speak with patrick and find out how they do notices And hopefully kind of bring the two pieces together But the porn does not get involved in notices so they're not really going to be able to help you very much I understand that But my other question has to do with the uh, uh, also the um The drainage in that issue during the wintertime And I don't know patrick if you've ever been in that neighborhood, uh in february or march When there's a lot of uh, you know thawing and in freezing it's treacherous And you're going down into spear street you're sliding into spear street Patrick are these roads um have these roads been taken over by the city? Yes Okay, so if the road since i've also been taken over by the city That is an issue that I can speak to our department of public works about I think the department of public works would want to shut off the drainage that's happening Because there's no way they could put enough salt down to fix that Matter of fact the city was doing the plowing in that section of the road The city would come up and they'd plow around up to the green then they'd go back down the spear street So the city's been taking care of that section for years now But they can't take care of all that ice So, uh, mr. Roberts, I think the the the best solution to this is We are going to be coming in for Formal approval for the city of saperuenton soccer field that's going to Be proposed on lot 11 by the solar field In that process I would envision that that runoff will be Um, we'll be taking care of so to speak and will likely be a catch basin installed there On the uphill side of that turn. I do know What you're referencing and you are 100 correct that the wetland does drain out of a low point onto Allen street And it does need to be Taken into consideration and it will be taken into consideration at that during that application design process The wetland was modified Three years ago And there was a I remember seeing the excavators there and I want to know if that was a legally acceptable move to do for that wetland I can only say that I wasn't involved and that we recently as of last year we had the wetlands division out there Re-delineating and accepting and reviewing that that delineation and No red flags were issued that I'm aware of So, um, my final question is um, and I'm sorry to take all the time here, but this is probably my my best option to get some answers Does does any of you have anything to do with act 250 in the act 250 permit process? And how do I get more information about that? So the city has no involvement in the act 250 process whatsoever. Um, Correct. Yeah, I don't There are some act 250 permits for this neighborhood that are Referencing the district 4 commission is that as are you considered a district 4 commission? Who is that? District 4 commission is the local Staff form the state office for act 250 that you should All right, I'll contact them. Thank you. I appreciate that Mr. Roberts the best way to get your Your questions answered To contact me directly at st. Ireland and my name is patrickle ryan and you can call 8636222 and I'll be happy to answer your questions and try to address any and often Yeah, thanks. I appreciate that but I think I'll go to the state on this and find out what's going on I can certainly give you the contact information if you want just give me a call Great. Thanks. Thank you. I appreciate the time board Thank you. Thank you patrick. See you very welcome Are there any other public comments or questions about just proposal? Uh Hello Yes, may I make a ask a clarifying question? Sure. Um identify yourself, please My name my name is boat My name is bow denim. I'm a resident of south village and I'm the uh Mr. Denham a board here Mr. Denham, you're breaking up. Pardon me Oh, my my What am I doing wrong? All right, come here. I can hear about now am I okay a little staggered. That's a little bit now We hear you now Oh man Where are the 12 year olds when we need them? He can also type what he wants to say into the chat If he's having difficulty with his microphone How about now is this any better? That's much better. Thank you, mr. Denham I Just a clarifying question on the on that map you were showing. Uh, we're the um Yeah, exactly Yeah We can hear you. Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. Um, yeah, just a clarifying question. Um For the area, um south of the fence that um The new section of fence that you're discussing Well, maybe if you could have that map up for a sec I can You mean with the red and the blue lines Mr. Denham and there there's a uh a section Mr. Denham, you are breaking up. There's a section of that wetland that goes it looks like it goes across Um Mr. Denham It looks like there's a section that goes across the bike the wreck path That hasn't been built yet Mr. Denham, can you hear me? Mr. Denham Say that again Marla, I think there's a big delay when he's speaking Um, but he did hear clearly that he has a And I'm wondering about the management of that you would mention that That would be that needs that area needs Yes, the area south south of the blue. Yes, and I'm not hearing you as well Well, you keep breaking up. That's that's the problem. Can you hear me? Mr. Denham? Um, I think this happens sometimes with kevin dorne when he speaks There's just a terrible delay and it sounds like he's responding. But in fact, if you're hearing something, then he said 30 seconds ago Um, so if he's just asking a clarifying question, I would be happy to speak to him later I believe I I know what his question is I think With which maybe there is a portion of the wetland that Goes into the bike path, but that area What is already filled? The base is already put in and that was done under our wetland permits for we we received approval Back when this road was built Several years ago and that that wetland impact has already occurred And was accounted for in both our state and federal permits And mr. Denham, if that doesn't answer your question, I would suggest you contact marla keen Individually offline and maybe she can help you answer your question Any other members of the public who would like to comment? Or have questions So hearing none, I would entertain a motion to close um The reconsideration and final plaid application st 2102 I make a motion that we close reconsideration of st 2102 and Do I hear a second second Thank you that the hearing is closed Now we're moving on to reconsideration of preliminary and final plaid application st 2103 of south village communities to subdivide an existing 1.92 acre lot into five lots ranging from 0.14 acres to 0.67 acres and to append 0.18 acres to an existing 12.68 acre agricultural lot for the purpose of developing a two-family home on each Of lots 92 to 95 Establishing the fifth lot as a permanent open space and expanding the existing agricultural lot The reconsideration is limited to condition 22 pertaining to affordable versus inclusionary units 1840 spear street so Patrick I think we've heard your rationale And I'm wondering if board members have any input mark. I know you spoke to this But does anyone else have any comments about this before we ask for public comment? I just have a question Sure I know the affordable housing committee has been advocating for the having inclusionary requirements apply city-wide And I just want some Feedback from staff if that were to happen Would this language change? prevent that from happening It would not Applications are subject to the LDRs that were In force at the time that they were proved This condition that they're asking for a change in is actually just A section where the reason we use the word Inclusionary accidentally is because it's a section of the inclusionary regulations that also applies to affordable units So that's why the mistake was made even if the ldrs were to change This section would still apply and it would still be only relevant for the include affordable units Thank you any other questions Before you ask for public comment anything from the board Okay Any members of the public who would like to speak to this? Hearing none I have a I have I have a comment or question Sure, please please identify yourself Um, my name is will linear. I live in 107 north jefferson Um, I'm trying to share there we go. I think my camera is now Um available So just in this Forgive me if this is rather rather elementary to ask but So for lots 95 or 92 to 95 this this new new area that's going in Is this is it optional that it's um affordable versus Versus kind of what what's normally been built or has that been decided? It's actually a requirement and marl. I'll let you explain that please Um, it's a requirement What else would you like to know? Yeah, it is required sir Okay, um, and then does my second question was um With this going in I I think I tried to ask this last time and then we this this uh discussion was tabled and moved to this date was the Kind of the low point where water water gathers That's there's going to be drainage added there and where where will that water go? That just kind of stay as is Kind of as as the landscaping of this new project takes place I'm not sure we can actually discuss that because it's not related to the The one issue that we've been asked to reconsider. Is that correct marla? Um, yeah, so we I mean, it's a it's a question. So I suppose if you want to we can take it up, but it's we can't Really make modifications or have discussion of things not relevant to that one condition that's being requested to be changed Um, I think we did discuss this though And I think the answer was that there was a stormwater soil that was conveying water away Um into a came in practice Maybe patrick would like to chime in if the chair so chooses sure go ahead patrick. Yeah, thank you will um If you let me give you my email address. It's p is in patrick obrien At sdireland.com and I if you email me I'll send you the plan set and go over it with you and show you how we're collecting that water So it doesn't continue downhill as it currently does Okay, um sounds great, but thank you. You're very welcome Thank you Any other questions or comments from the public? A having hearing none. I would entertain a motion to Close reconsideration of preliminary and final plan application sd 2103 To be closed reconsideration of sd 2103 to team 40 sphere street south village lot 48 preliminary and final plan Thank you mark. Do I hear a second? second Thanks, jane. All in favor On the motion Okay, this um This agenda item is close this this application Our re reconsideration is closed, but thank you patrick. Thank you all very much Turning to our next agenda item continued preliminary plan application. Oh, and let me just start by saying, um Stephanie you're recused. So Stephanie's not here. Oh, you are here. Okay. You're recused from this too, correct Yes, that's correct. Okay. Thanks, Stephanie. Thank you I'm just getting I'm just getting back. Oh, hi, jim. It's a slate Continued preliminary plan application sd 2040 of o'brien east view llc to create a planned unit development of six existing parcels currently developed with three single family homes in a barn And totaling 102.6 acres the development is to consist of 135 homes in single family duplex and three family dwellings on nine lots totaling 21.8 acres 19 commercial development lots totaling 44 acres one existing single family home And 25.1 acres of undeveloped open space That's 500 old farm road Who is here for the applicant Uh, Andrew here for o'brien brothers Evan Langfield I don't see you Evan. Are you just on the phone? Uh, I'm trying to get my screen up right now. I'll be up in a second. All right And I would I would like to ask remind people to mute their microphone if they're not on the board or speaking Thank you We've got one more to don I think Scott Scott homestead from crebs and lansing consulting engineer civil engineer for the applicant Okay, good. Thanks so Well, Evan's trying to get his screen up. Um, let me just say this staff report has 50 comments and um Many of them we believe can be collapsed So I think that it's not as onerous as it might otherwise look so what I'd like to propose is that we start working our way through the comments um try to resolve each one as briefly as possible um and Try to get through them before the end of the night And I would like us to be done by 10 o'clock, but let's see how it goes Okay So this is a A continued preliminary plat. So you are You Evan and Andrew you're under oath Scott have you been sworn in for this application? Yes, I am sworn in at previous meetings. Okay. Thanks. All right, so um Before we start going through the comments. Is there anything are there any brief comments you'd like to say? Andrew or God or oh evan you are here. Okay. Good. Good. I am Thanks for having me. Say or shall we just dive in? I think we can dive in the the only thing I would say is that um, I know that there are several neighbors on old farm road that or I believe that there are several neighbors on old farm road um that have expressed an interest particularly on the multi-use path connectivity And while there were some of those neighbors on the call last time I know we never addressed that issue and there wasn't a time for public commentary So in lieu of uh, trying to have them wait through until the very end of the meeting I was wondering if we could address that item first just to allow them to To weigh in As a courtesy Sure. I have no problem with that. Do any other board members? Okay, and uh speaking of neighbors I I should disclose that I own a property at townhome at o'brien farms Or hillside at o'brien farms, but I believe I can be impartial Unless anyone has any concerns about that Okay, um Who is here who would like to provide comments for this application? John Henning 103 old farm road Okay, john tell us tell us what's on your mind Well, um, I've been a resident of south burlington for 32 years I've lived in this home for 17 years And I just by accident found out that there was a I guess you would call eminent domain, you know, right away that 10 feet of my property were going to be taken for a bike path that Would basically eliminate my driveway So I would have uh people on a bike path within Just a few feet of my garage door And it's very concerning because I understand an alternative was put forth and rejected by the town Which, you know, the impact on on my value of my home is Probably several hundred thousand With what's being planned to deface my property So it's uh very very upsetting That uh and and by the way, I object to be Be referred to as in a butter I think that you should use the term Adjoining landowner or a budding landowner property owner be a little more professional. We're not all into the jargon and it needs to be uh done away with if you don't mind So as an as an you know, somebody that's You know impacted directly economically And aesthetically but mostly economically I don't know if anybody's ever bothered to drive up and see what 10 feet Would do the blast thing that would have to go, you know, vermont gas wouldn't put gas lines in On old farm road because of the ledge But we're going to put a bike path in I don't understand that Especially when there's a reasonable alternative Where no one is impacted. None of the families on old farm road would be impacted by the alternatives So I'm I'm really very very disappointed It got this far down the track. Thank you. Mr. Henning May I ask a question of Evan and Andrew? Sure related to that Isn't Is what's being proposed within the city's right of way? Can Yeah, I think maybe it makes sense to just refresh everybody's memory on the conversation just because I don't think we've Um talked about this since our first hearing back in February or March if If that makes that Just so it's clear what What we've proposed at this point And and what the comments mr. Henning's comments are addressing Uh, there was a an exhibit that we submitted. I apologize. I don't have um, I think it was there was a php plan Uh, that was our bike and pedestrian connectivity plan Um, I uh, apologize. I don't know What page it is of your packet, but it might be worth just pulling that up so we can just show you what we've proposed Marla, I saw you shaking part of the packet Do we not have it? You're muted I'm sure it's part of the packet if there's something that we want to be showing I mean it's just gonna take a minute. It's a little I did leave bookmarks in the packet. So you move those So I can tell you uh our exhibit number for it I think is it page 71 exhibit 32 of our submission High page 71 There you go So just uh to kind of refresh everybody's memory of what the the conversation is about so this plan um if you Why don't you kind of pull down the page a little bit to the to the portion of old farm road that's outside of a project Right there is perfect. So uh in the first hearing that we had we showed you guys a bunch of photos of the issue that um Mr. Henning's talking about with regard to the Recommendation of a shared use path on old farm road where the yellow Line is drawn on this plan Uh the proximity of the path to the existing houses and the sort of destruction that it would cause to their front yards We had submitted more pictures that we took in person Last hearing in a power point presentation that we could pull up and you could walk through We we had sort of had a conversation at the first hearing about You know the the sort of needs of our project and the conversation sort of oriented around how are your project you know project The people who live in your project going to access Sort of like you know the amenities on tilly drive the rec path on tilly drive the brick store There on the corner of tilly drive that just went in You know, how are you providing for that safe access? And so we had come back with this proposal that includes a rec path being Temporarily constructed from our project border through the tilly drive And connecting to the tilly drive bike path Which gives our residents full access to the tilly drive walking paths to the store on the corner of tilly and hindsburg road And does so without any disruption to the to the existing neighborhood um That's the proposal that we've put forward currently In order to sort of create the connectivity that's necessary for our project without the The disruption of the shared use path and we can look at the images that we had submitted to you guys If that's helpful as well Thank you, andrew so Don this is Evan again just for context too If it makes sense, you know based on this discussion for a site visit at some point We would welcome that because I think it is a little bit alarming once you see the actual existing site conditions In the proximity to homes and existing garage structures and parking areas So remind me that then then i'll um We decided we wanted a shared bike path Marla, what was the next step in this process? How did we get here? There was a conversation and The board has heard What the applicant has to say the board has heard What staff has to say the board is currently taking testimony or not testimony the public is the board currently hearing public comment um And it is now the responsibility of the board as always the delivery on what they have heard and make a decision Um, so until the board issues decision, there is no decision Okay, all right all right Yeah, and to clarify uh, don we've not discussed it in a hearing since the initial recommendation to work with a professional firm to sort of try and determine the best way of creating connectivity for our project Which we did we took that advice we went and we engaged with vhb And we developed this plan that we thought achieved the connectivity necessary for our project in a manner That was sensitive to the residents on old farm road That's the plan but forward The director of public works. I believe in uh, some of the comments has said that the advisory bicycle lane proposed Which is the yellow line is not something that the city is Looking to do You know, that was a suggestion as a way of calming traffic and allowing for bike connectivity I still think yeah, I'll just clarify a little bit. It's not that the city is against an advisory bicycle lane in general It's that this isn't the right location for it But um, and I I only say that because I don't want to like give the impression that we You know It's more a site specific concern Well So So in this context, you know, that was not a proposal that that was supported By by the city or by the director of public works, uh, which has left, you know So the yellow line at this point would you know, we would remove as part of our proposal Um, but we would you know, we're still saying that we've provided the connectivity shown here Um, and that you know, we're hopeful that that meets the requirements that the board had set forth Of, you know, how are your residents going to get to tilly drive safely? securely And you know the issues of the necessity of a shared use path to facilitate the future development of You know citer mill and the future connectivity of the city is proposing over 189 with exit 12b and everything else Uh sort of development outlined in the tilly drive land use study You know, that's something that the city can iron out through ordinances and impact fees and through future Future development Sort of regulation, uh, but but in terms of the impacts of our project. We thought this was a good proposal. So Okay well, we will um Have to talk about that at a deliberation apparently May I Comment go go ahead Marla Um, yeah Hi John I had emailed you this afternoon. I'm hoping that you received that email I'm sorry. What is your name, please? Marla Weiner I'm a resident the 105 old farm road. I'm coming through as firefly for some reason Okay Can you hear me all right I did not receive an email from you Are you sure you didn't send it to Marla? It's in the chat I sent an email to you, um Dawn this afternoon Yes I I'm sorry if you didn't receive that I was hoping that you'd have a chance to see what I what I was writing Um regarding this issue beforehand um So I I can um if I may just take a minute to weigh in um, obviously, uh We are very alarmed at at what's being considered for shared bike rec path. Um, it's been mentioned and pointed out how little room there is In the front of all of our driveways. It just happens the way the houses are built and were built Due to the ledge issues, um here on old farm road The garages and driveways are literally A few feet from the road bit um We have been Owners of this house for 40 years This is a very old established neighborhood That Even though We understand The O'Brien brothers development went through all of the appropriate approvals we've tried to Accept that it hasn't been easy to accept but we've been living in a war zone for the past three years Um, this is just Beyond the pale that the city would be considering Doing one more thing To disturb this neighborhood We've been hanging on by our fingernails. It's only going to get worse Once this huge development goes in on the other side of the road In addition, it seems to me because we've been following this so closely as we are severely impacted By this development I was aware that there was a provision that had been suggested by the developer at their cost To provide what seems to me a much better alternative and a safer alternative for people Wanting to bike or walk to connected to the chili drive area So I'm just trying to weigh in Very early This is a fairly short run past A few houses That have been here long before All of this development has been allowed to go in We for years were promised by the city that they would consider closing one end or the other of old farm road one Development was approved and allowed to go on here that would be impacting the neighborhood The city has summarily Renegged on any of those assurances. We were given year after year And frankly, I feel like This is just a slap in the face After everything, you know, we've we've tried to You know be good neighbors weigh in in an intelligent manner Not just saying no to everything But I would really really encourage the city to consider What they're what they're talking about doing to this neighborhood We also really rely on being able to have some parking along The road in front of our properties You know when that is allowable Because of the fact that there's not significant driveway area So I just hope that perhaps If the opportunity arises for someone to actually come and walk along This part of the road At some point I would be more than happy to meet With you as I'm sure my my fellow neighbors would And I think that it would be shocking To see what impact what's being suggested would have on us All I have to say I thank you for the opportunity to speak Thank you Marla and I just want you to know I have walked that many times And I understand the issue Well, thank you. I'm glad I can know that somebody Has eyes on the ground All right Mr. and Mrs. Gates Are you still wanting to make comments? Yes, please Okay Hello, thank you So we're Immediately next door to mr. Henning. Uh, we haven't had the pleasure of Meeting Marla yet and she's two houses down. But so we're New owners as of last summer of 75 old farm road Um, but we I'm a lot of what was already said we fully agree with And yeah, I would just like to reiterate those comments Part of what makes this section of old farm roads so special is kind of the history Of it and there's still, you know, the bike path would also Take out, you know, 100 plus year old trees Um, they're definitely as visible ledge that it would have to, you know, deal with And it would pretty much destroy the front of our property, um, which as um I can see Pete someone that's been here 20 or 40 years Have a serving lobby and also as a new homeowner to suddenly find out this is going to happen Is sort of also shocking to us And and I will say We've been getting ourselves up to speed on the project Andrew has spent Quite a bit of time going over the project with us. So we're very familiar with it But we we strongly object to this particular suggestion by the city Particularly, I just wanted to say that I think one of the other Neighbors mentioned that there are Really good plans already in place in other in other locations. There's a lot of connectivity already with Kennedy Drive I think it's really quite unnecessary and then in reading the staff comments In preparation for this meeting noticed in point 15 that there's even going to be just across the road. There's going to be um A smaller type of path So a path on both sides destroying our side Of um, of old farm road seems really unnecessary and unfortunate when Andrew and the rest of the O'Brien team have Completely thought about this and have really tried to be considerate of the neighbors and the neighborhood and the established Properties that make this neighborhood what it is. And I think you know, we are really We're looking forward to the to the neighborhoods and the development. We knew about it going in We were excited to be a part of a town, you know, we're from Vermont we're from south burlington and We moved to phoenix and we moved to boston. We're we're city people like we're totally okay with city and construction and what it what the future holds but we we bought our property for a reason and it's it's beautiful it's established and And we would really like the board to reconsider Based on what's happening here tonight Thank you very much. We we will always consider comments Thank you. I'd like to add a comment to this as well Identify yourself, please. I'm Taylor forest. I'm at 51 old farm road Um, thanks everyone for for taking the time and listening. Um, I'm gonna echo what everyone else said I think it pretty much comes down to You know, what what most of the folks on old farm road said that's the not a viable option We got mature landscape that Pretty much runs across most of our properties. We're definitely in a an area where it's like 25 At least 25 feet Maybe less from the road. So like this is going to pretty much encroach on most of our properties As far as the viability around this like it doesn't make sense the duplicate of effort around the connectivity around the We got tilly. We got eldridge. We got kennedy like there's no reason We need to even entertain this And the fact that it's even on the table seems like we haven't done our due diligence So I'm here to help you can walk on my property. I'll show you where it doesn't make sense Don it sounds like you you take strolls Feel free to swing by but let's figure out another way to kind of carve out a better spot for this Thank you, taylor Anyone else? Um, is there anyone else who would like to make comments or Boys their opinion okay So thank you, and I think Evan it was a good suggestion to allow these folks to Speak early and not be burning the midnight oil with all of us. So let's proceed with the staff comments. Shall we? Waiting for it to come up on the screen actually, okay, does it Don does it make sense to I mean Do you guys have uh since we're on the rec path comment? Feedback that that you can share. I mean, have you you know, do you want us to talk about more? You know what our proposal was? I mean that was one of the staff comments. I think number nine or something like that That we are going to get to we can we can just get back to it Or finish it up Let's let's deal with it now since we're talking about Um the bike path. I'm looking for nine Okay staff Considered the board should acknowledge the applicant's strong opposition To constructing a multi-use path south of the project area because of a desire not to impact Uninvolved adjoiners, but nonetheless recommends the board Require the path be constructed based on city goals and objectives As described in the ldr comprehensive plan and recently completed kimba lab community drive tilly drive network study The staff is willing to meet with neighbors between now and final plat to address site specific design issues Staff recommends the applicant be directed to include this rec path in the final plat submittal so I have a question for staff Go ahead um This the study was recommending connectivity Did the study The study must have been aware of the challenges of homes On the edge of the right of way. I live over by rice high school and yeah, I could I'm licking out my window and I could You know toss my cat and land on the right I'm right away there so Did the study talk about this and yet still recommended it anyway I have not read the study marla. What can you uh help us with here? Um, that's a good question. It's been a couple months since I read the study the And I admit that I did not read the appendices So it has not addressed in the body of the study. I cannot speak to whether it's addressed specifically in the appendices I mean my my limited, you know our experience working with vhb in in creating this This plan that we proposed You know, we we discussed at length with them these challenges and I'm not sure that the full Uh, sort of complexity of the the proposed path was I mean, I you know, they're not on the call. I certainly could check in with them on that but You know my feeling from conversing with them was We explained all of these challenges We wound up with a plan that had an advisory lane and not a shared use path An advisory lane Yeah, so, you know, it's the The concept that you know, you would have essentially one Um, you know 12 or 10 or 12 foot wide travel lane and you'd have to try the bike lanes on each side And and basically traffic would have to alternate Waiting for each other to pass while bikes, you know, when you know, they went in and out of the center lane sort of a Real controlled traffic environment And we had submitted and I just I don't know if the board has seen the photos we submitted for the last hearing Of the Areas that would be impacted If it's worth Pulling those up. I just want to make sure that those were You know Let me take a stab at this It sounds like we need to put a pin in this and Deal with it at another meeting And in the meantime, maybe we can all look at that study, which is I'm sure posted on the website Marla Um, it's in your it's been in your practice and yes, it is posted on the website Um, I'll be happy to and I will make myself a note to send an email to the board with the link To the study Thank you So My suggestion is we're not going to resolve this tonight So let's go back and start from the beginning and put it down. Can I make a suggestion? Yeah, always It may See that the board decides they have enough information to make a decision And can Conclude without additional testimony and it may not be But You know, I would I would encourage you guys to deliberate on it and determine whether you need additional testimony rather than plan to all right So we would not be conclude. We would not be closing this tonight We would deliberate and then identify if we need any information right I think that we were hoping uh, you know to get a little bit of guidance in terms of where you guys were at In terms of preparing additional submissions, uh with regard to this. I'm not sure that That we would feel that we've provided one at a time And go ahead and finish in marla then sorry. I'm just you know, I think that we would provide additional supplemental testimony response to feedback on the issue because we very much Want to ensure that this is fully addressed that you know, we've we've discussed all of the different points In it And so I think we were kind of hoping to get a sense of whether this was something that you were going to require and that We could provide additional testimony As to you know, whether this is something that that we would view as being able to be required by the board But also there's a significant amount of information in regard to the tilly drive study that I think talking about In regard to sort of what that study's intent was and its applicability to our project And so I could talk about that a little bit now if that's helpful or But but I would say that we would want to Understand your position a bit more and be given a chance to have more To provide more testimony Rather than you know closing the hearing and getting your your opinion via decision that Would that need to be Marla go ahead. What were you starting to say? I was going to say that the board is the Causational body here and has the ability to make a decision Um, I guess in response to what Andrew just said It's not intended to be an open-ended discussion forever and ever So if the board feels they can make a decision the board should make a decision Okay, all right. Well, let's proceed And we will see where we are In a little while Let's go back to the beginning and start taking chipping away at these comments one by one and We certainly know that the shared use path is a is a major issue Okay staff considers the board should require the applicant to change all triggers to be Relocated sorry to issuance of zoning permit applications Do you guys think about that? I think we're fine with this condition Okay, we understand that I think staff's response was that it's they can't really they're not tracking sales They're tracking the zoning applications. So we understand so we'll come back with uh A proposal on how how to track that Perfect. Thanks, Evan. Okay number two Thanks, Delilah Staff recommends the board require the applicant to complete construction of the barn phase prior to a percentage of zoning permits and recommends the board determine What percentage would be appropriate? Applicant Yeah, so we this uh specifically is dealing with the phase of When we would construct the improvements around the barn, uh, we had proposed some sort of You know, we haven't we've conceptually proposed it at this point some You know a parking area and a picnic pavilion renovating the existing barn cleaning up the site planting trees and shrubs as well as creating a rec path Connection that goes from east to west through that area that we were just looking at on the vhp plan um, we had proposed that it would be Essentially constructed when the units immediately adjacent to it were completed that the barn lot would be completed um, you know, I think we would still like to tie it to the the to that construction in some sense, uh, just because It's it's challenging to sort of complete the construction of those homes after you've put in a You know really nicely landscape park that you know in the area that you would be driving through to access the home lots to build them And so I think just logistically it's a little bit tricky You know, how do you do that? You know, we could certainly Put a longer Percentage on there. So, you know, we could say 65 percent of the zoning permits and and we would feel pretty confident that that would get us, uh You know those lots immediately adjacent completed, but it also deliver the park later Uh, you know, then otherwise what happened, you know, if those homes sold early on so I think we're open to Feedback here, um, but you know the the the main thing was just that we wanted to complete the homes next to the area Before we landscaped the area and completed the entire, you know, the entire park because we were planning on accessing for construction through there Um, so, you know, we I think the easiest thing would probably be to put a percentage on it as the comment requests, um We pay at x percent or as soon as homes 31- One or 33-1 to 33-9 are complete If that makes sense Would that work for us you show page 18 of the packet till I look because I have another idea Just I only say this one because it's Yeah, if you could zoom into that park in that area Where the barn is Quite a bit more I'm getting it The park that's off of old farm road next to the empty red square in the middle Just go to the left Yeah And then up a bit There you go So you were saying you were going to access Be in the back, but there's this sidewalk separating These homes so what if you were just to build this part? And leave this stuff on the other side leave the sidewalk for all your face I mean It's just really challenging to to have you know finished beautiful landscaping immediately adjacent to to That sort of of activity. I mean we we would end up doing more harm than good and and redoing the work, you know multiple Yeah, you know, I think I think the other concern there is that When you're building those homes your it is an active construction site too And so the proximity to the active construction sites can be challenging to manage So I I think we understand that the city would like to see the park Created as soon as possible And I think what we're looking for is a little flexibility to complete that zone But we understand that again, you know that we need a trigger And so, you know, it could be that the park is completed no later than the last home in lot 33 But has to start, you know with with one or two homes to go in terms of the the zoning permits pulled And so that there's, you know, weren't We wouldn't do this But there isn't the you know the perception that for whatever reason we would be sitting on the last home to To kind of punt on having to develop that that site plan I mean, we we would like to get that done, but it is a tricky situation there Well, and I think what you just found is exactly the concern like, you know, if if the if the Is approved as written as you proposed, you could just choose not to build one of the homes and then never build the park So I think given those two options We would prefer to see the option that Andrew proposed, which is, you know, 60 to 70 percent of Build or all of those units, which ever comes first over Something that was tied solely to those units. I think I think we're comfortable with that Like a happy medium to me it gives us a little bit of a You know, it gives us a little bit of time to get those units done And also gives you security that at 60 or 70 percent that we'll have it complete That's good. I think we're good with that Great. Okay. Can we move on? Sure Staff recommends the board discuss this specific proposal with the applicant. Oh, I think we just did that I think we just did three Four staff consider no three is about a different area. This is the North end of old farm road. Okay. Sorry about that Um, the board discussed the specific proposal with the applicant in addition to the general concept proposed staff calls The board's attention to the applicant's alternative proposal to build the connection to hillside as part of the hillside project Well, this is an interesting offer Staff notes it may require amendment of the hillside master plan. That's right And therefore should not be considered a workable proposal unless the applicant submits such as an application prior to final final plat for east view So there was some feedback at the last meeting with regard to the timing of the relocation of old farm road We spent a lot of time looking at sort of logistically how we're going to manage the site and how we're going to construct things We tried to figure out, you know At what point would we be able to relocate this road and do it feasibly in a way that sort of would allow the project to To move forward and and to not sort of get too much opened up for or to be sort of creating You know challenges within the project management and you know We came back with a proposal that for the relocated old farm road at that at 30 percent home sales It would be started and at 45 percent home sold it would be completed So before 50 percent of the homes were built that old farm road would be relocated In its entirety in line with the goals that that you all had put forward We you know, that is accelerated from where We were originally trying to meet you guys You know where where you wanted us to be And so yeah, I guess the staff feedback is is you know, what do you guys think of that? And you know, we'd certainly be interested in understanding that But the current proposal is at 30 home sold we would no later than then we would start it and be complete by 45 percent To the earlier comment, we'd have to adjust that to be zoning permits issued But I think that you know we can we can For that, huh? Yeah, I think Andrews ended up perfectly This is the situation where the board had some specific feedback and the applicant responded and now Staff is asking if the board is satisfied with the response So they're now so the feedback from the board was you can't do the old farm road Relocation and connection to hillside only when you build the commercial lots it has to be part of the residential project And so now they're proposing to start of it 30 construction of the residential home of the detached homes and complete by 45 percent And how does that sound to you guys? I think it sounds reasonable. What what do other board members feel? Can I just interject? Just to reiterate the point that Andrew made, you know on on the proposal that we've made It is tied to the home sold as opposed to zoning permits pulled and with stats The staff's response to say they can't track home sold. They would prefer to be on zoning permits pulled We would want to adjust that Because from the time a zoning permit is pulled to the time a home is sold It's a you know, it's approximately eight months And so we would need to adjust that to allow us to have a little bit more room there Based on what we proposed here Is that doable Marla? So the question for you guys is are you okay with the percentages? And then if you are you know, we can we can kind of defer That minor adjustment and have a discussion about what that minor adjustment looks like to final plot I'm okay with the concept. I'm okay with the with what's proposed by the applicant except Yeah, just you probably have to lower the percentage if I'm correct No, I think we would actually increase the percentage because Okay, all right any other comments before we move on to number four I just want to say I I appreciate you guys looking at that again And I think it's at least a reasonable compromise compared to what was originally proposed. So thank you Thanks. Thank you, Alyssa Number four staff considers at least one of These amenity areas should be tied to a percent completion of the currently proposed residential units Rather than the proposed triggers in order to provide appropriate amenity areas for residents and recommends the board discuss What percentage they consider appropriate? So board what percentage How big is this dog park and I mean how much actual physical work is it? I mean there's an area but How many amenities how many linear feet of fencing are we talking about here? The also the dog park is is I think about an acre If I'm taken so It's a lot of fencing. It's a it's a pretty substantial area Um, you know, I enjoy it's about it's about 900 feet of fence You know, I think our preference, you know was this sort of uh The dog park and stuff is sort of way more connected to the c1 l r lots than than it is to the to the residential ones And I think you would have a little bit of like an island thing going on being out And then it would kind of be you know Set up on its own at you know the park the linear park that's mentioned in the common We certainly can complete Sooner in the process And so I think it would be our our preference to to complete that You know, I would point out that that the barn amenity The open space fields on lot 18 and the playground on lot 19 the open space lot are all part of the single family Housing development as well And so, you know, the the amenities that we've tabled to be part of the commercial area are the playground and Larger park at the end of the cul-de-sac road and the dog park This linear park. We're happy to complete as part of the the residential development We had just tied it again to the construction of the adjacent homes. So the uphill Homes in the red area there You know, and again, it's that same problem where The you know, we're trying to those homes are on big fills. They have retaining walls in the backyard And if you look at the map Our staging area is in the green And we're going to be cutting through that linear park for the duration of the construction with fill and and you know boulders to make those retaining walls from the you know, the site storage areas in the industrial commercial lands so You know, we're happy to get that park in there. I think it just we wanted to sort of have closed off that That access point and so I think logically just kind of tends to be more toward the end of the project What do you think, um board? 50% of projected trip and seems like an odd one Say that again, please jan Well, it says 50% of the projected trips. So we're looking we're going to be measuring interim trip ends again or something Am I reading that correctly? That that was the proposal for the dog park construction Essentially saying when we've gotten to 50% of the projected trip ends for the commercial area that that would be triggered So it was a specific trigger tied to traffic, which you know, we would be tracking as we permitted each use Um, it seemed like a good metric to us. I mean, we could also do Three of four three of nine commercial acts are proposed or you know, you could You could chop it up a lot of different ways I think the other point that Andrew made is worth considering though Which is that there is going to be a construction haul road running right past that area? And so you're essentially creating a boundary of the residential piece and then this, you know Where the dog park would be that you know, if you had residential folks that were crossing over It would be crossing over an active haul road So again, you know, we're we're sort of open to kind of looking at the phasing of all this But I think that there's probably more logical Parks to be looking at in the earlier phase And again, yeah, I think, you know, we we've proposed a playground on on lot 19 I'm not sure if the overall site plan is available or if I'm even reading the loud numbers, right? But if in the If you zoom in, you know, the sort of corner lot at the right of the meadow loop area Right well right there. You can see the park that's labeled in the upper left That's where there's like a natural playground proposed And you've got the park at hillside, which is existing the recreational fields and the barn amenities all being proposed for the You know in the early part of the single family development And again, I'm not pushing back on the the linear park. I think to the staff comment number four, we can provide a trigger I'm just Saying that in order to sort of enable the the hauling of materials in to build the roads And the homes that that that is the access point for that because we've intentionally made it that way to avoid going on Kimball Avenue and And old farm road and you know, increasing traffic coming in on streets where we then have to sweep the roads every day for Sediment and you know, do all of these things to sort of protect For runoff and things so So we could come back with a trigger where you guys could set a trigger at, you know 80 75 80 percent of the homes or something like that With the provision for maintaining a haul road up through there for the duration of the project Marlon, what do you think? I'm a little freaked out that there's a haul road through the middle of the project And it makes me concerned that I've missed all sorts of other big things and I guess I don't know Just a little stuck on that at the moment Okay, all right Marl, that stuff will all be detailed when we do the EPSC plans But again, we we did propose, you know the You know the the storage and blasting area, you're down on the ic lands and so I think it's You know, it makes sense that that be connected through the project again as opposed to going out and using city street To get material back in for it I assume I'm being naive Or I am naive a haul road is like a rough Road, not a public road for you to move large vehicles around and transport materials Yeah, exactly. Okay. I mean, I think, you know, you guys have likely been around hillside and seen the sort of amount of material that were moving around to make this happen and There is a massive amount of material And this project is In many ways going to have more than hillside did I think there's more earth movement There's roads that are in enormously deep cuts, you know, six eight foot deep cuts And you have to take that dirt somewhere And it's either going down old farm road and and eddy drive and through city center, you know In hundreds and thousands of dump trucks or we're storing it on site and then recycling it when we get to areas of fields And you know, we've designed the project essentially as far as I can tell to be neutral in terms of material You know going and coming And that's our goal But that does require a significant amount of material storage and the ability to sort of move materials around internally Right Okay, well, I think you know what we're looking for We will Talk about this again sometime Number five staff considers this to be a poor metric Because the uses may never reach 75 of the projected trip ends And instead recommends the trigger be tied to the zoning permit or percentage of the lots accessed off icy road And recommends the board discuss what percentage they consider appropriate So board members I will turn to you Really getting into the details here What seems to be an appropriate Percentage that was a great plan that you had there, uh, the green one Sure And then the area that we're looking at is the icy area down on the lower right There are six lots proposed In that area Combined with this condition being tied to percentage of lots We just again, we were just using trip ends because we thought it was easier to Sort of okay. All right So it would it just seemed like it accommodated more Potentially if you had a really heavy use or a trip heavy use that was only on one lot that it would You know trigger it earlier, right? but Let's move on the flip side if you had a bunch of stuff it would so I you know, I think We would say, you know within, uh I think 50 percent of the lots or it would be probably good by us that seems immune to the board Half of the lots wouldn't trigger the path I have no problem with that Marla, can you live with that? Yeah, I think that makes sense Okay, um, don if I can just weigh in real quick on this I think you know I missed part of the discussion I just stepped away on the previous one about And but I did catch the tail end of the trip and its discussion now this one You know, and I just want that a blanket statement in regard to the triggers and the things that that are, you know Triggering these amenities Is you know, I think everyone acknowledges is going to be a construction site and a construction zone for many many years But that said, you know the people that are buying into this neighborhood and this development are buying into You know the future use of it and the future completion of it But they also know what they're getting into initially So you do have to provide some of these amenities earlier on Even if it's at the detriment of The initial construction, you know, because you know, there's a lot of developments where like the Playground and the rec path goes in and then the houses get built around it So that you know the people that are that do buy in early have those amenities to use and they acknowledge that You know that the periphery and the perimeter Maybe a construction zone for a few years, but it's new neighbors that are coming in So I mean in terms of the triggers, I think the 50% is fine on this one But in terms of the other ones, you know, I think we're looking for a balance That allows for the amenities for the residents that are buying in early But obviously the protection of the residents that aren't coming in early, but ultimately, you know So that that's enough on that subject, but Thank you mark any other comments by board members All right, number six staff recommends the board find that the phasing plan is generally satisfactory if the above elements are addressed But that the plan must be amended clarified and reviewed altogether at final plat. I think I think uh, you know that. Yeah, okay. Good Okay, moving on to comment number seven Daff recommends the board review the above seven recommendations and determine Which to require the applicant to address And so those seven are in blue Wondering Delilah if you can show them on the screen Please Do we still have Delilah? Yes, I'm still here. Okay. There's a delay on my adobe Okay I see the Must be about the one two three four fifth bullet down on the bottom of page three there Extend the shared use path Yeah, is that what we just discussed? Yes Right. So that one Yeah, I think this is a briar patch we should keep the developer out of at the moment It's as long as it looks like there's that planned connection to ic road and ways to get to tilly because tilly's gonna have I don't know a thousand ten thousand jobs or something that's It would be nice if people could bike to work, you know or whatever or go about a little grocery store Which is wonderful by the way So It's empty in there needs more stuff But the sandwiches are great sandwiches are great. Yeah highly recommend Appreciate that feedback Dan. Um, I you know in terms of these six traffic items, uh, I don't think that we have Any real challenge addressing them? Um, and working through them at final plat I would say with the exception of the roundabouts Um, and potentially the point one regarding the internal capture estimate So if You know, we took a look at the roundabout suggestion It's suggested that we look at roundabouts on old on kimble avenue instead of traffic lights And the size of the roundabouts needed to accommodate the amount of truck traffic on kimble avenue It's extraordinary Um, and you know, we had submitted a letter today. I'm not sure if I got it samarla in time But essentially the roundabout would be so big that the The roundabout would be almost touching john wilkins buildings in the parking lot You know the front of the buildings adjacent to kimble avenue And to construct that we would then need to essentially remove kimble avenue and move it onto our property Further, you know south For hundreds of feet to read and the roundabout into a massive hillside Which is the side of our property Having, you know, I don't know 10 foot, you know painting wall on the south side of it. So That's our sort of preliminary look at the roundabouts and so we are you know, I believe his recommendation was that the roundabouts Should be looked at because they have a little bit less of a maintenance long-term maintenance costs for the city But I think that the sort of impacts of that amount of construction on kimble avenue When compared to the sort of ability to add a traffic light and create a signalized intersection Which is in keeping with all the other intersections in the area, you know, we would We would appreciate not needing to go down that road And so, you know, the feedback was that that particular comment could be You know considered satisfied That would be helpful Sounds like a big project Um, so I would just respond, but yes, we did get something from the applicant this afternoon. Um, no one has had a chance to review it Um, I some of you were on the board for the FedEx application where we reviewed a roundabout um at the eastern most intersection of community drive and Kimble Ave and that roundabout was designed to accommodate the very large articulated trucks for the FedEx facility um, and so, you know, it's not the traditional roundabout with um, a gigantic circle in the middle is certainly not what the technical review had in mind, but because It's a technical review and no one has really had a chance to look at the analysis that they performed. Um, I don't really want to Say whether and I don't recommend the board say whether that the analysis they provided is appropriate at this time Um, the recommendation is to do this for final plan I don't know how comfortable the board would feel about saying You know, we'll review that for final plat or if you wanted to take some more time at this preliminary plat stage and Um review it before concluding this hearing I think that we're saying that we would need to get this settled at preliminary Um, the amount of design and work, you know, that would go into this Um, would be substantial. We wouldn't know what to present at final plat If we didn't know what the direction was so Yeah, I think Andrew what I'm saying is that what I've seen from your initial memo is that you've gone way too big compared to what what We have seen in the same roadway on other projects so Potentially it's not as not as terrifying as you're thinking, but it may not be the right solution. I just think I just like to point out one quick practical difference between the The The park roundabout and a potential one here is that That one the one on community drive is that's a very flat area and basically every direction Whereas this you have anyone who's driven down Kimball Avenue on the side you're looking up at a steep hillside on the O'Brien side and that's That's not very conducive to you know, a wide flat anything such as So I just think that's a practical difference that you can understand immediately Yeah, but we 100 appreciate you guys have not reviewed the letter It's sort of you know, if if we could I think what we would need is to get feedback on Whether that is something that we should be proposing Prior to moving on to final plat because I think that the you know, we would need to propose it And we would need to design it versus designing sections and traffic lights and conformance with the current plan. So That's something that I guess we'll have to get feedback on at a how to continue the area Well, so the preliminary plat comes with a decision Is that not feedback? Well, we've not provided I think I don't think we've sufficiently analyzed the Alternatives to to sort of So you're saying the memo you submitted today is not your analysis Certainly, it would be acceptable to us to say that a roundabout is not required But I think that saying a roundabout would be required without the opinion of you know, our expert being You know balanced against the opinion of another expert who we're both looking at the same set of facts Would would sort of be premature I think deferring to our expert would would make sense because he's familiar with the site and with the area Mr. Jackamard is you know from out of state I'm not sure that he had a full grading plan or understood the road geometry in the area or the truck counts and and the specifics It would be good. I think for the two of them to connect to get Justin Radu's opinion on it and for us to understand all that Um So can this be dealt with offline? Yeah, I guess if the board decides they want to continue on this issue I'm feeling a little frustration that um It seems that if the decision isn't the applicant's favor, they're good to close the meeting But if it's essentially going to be something they're dissatisfied with The meeting needs to stay open so they can argue about it more Um, so, you know, that's my general frustration here Okay, other board members want to weigh in on this I mean The potential impacts of I think are something that we would want to have be made plain So if there is an alternative proposal for something smaller, I think that that proposal should be evaluated by our expert As to whether or not it's viable prior to the board making a decision to require That's what I'm asking for So if you know, we've determined in our expert's opinion that this is what is required and that it's Unfeasible because of the amount of work that would need to be done to accommodate it If there's an alternative opinion as to a different proposal I think what we're asking for is the ability of our expert to provide his feedback to you on that prior to a decision being issued to require I'm sorry. I'm totally confused because it's like We're being asked whether to tell you to complete the evaluation that you're saying you're going to do your own in-house Evaluation and present it to the board. How is this not what we were sort of Just discussing What where am I missing that disconnect? well, so We provided a letter analyzing and evaluating around about And I've submitted it to to you guys today. I think that Marlott suggested that potentially our expert's opinion as to the size and complexity and scope of the roundabout is incorrect And that a smaller roundabout could be required or could be completed What I'm saying is that if the board Decides that that could be accurate that we'd like a chance to review These specifics of that proposal And have our expert review it prior to a decision being made to say pursue a roundabout in your final plat filing We just don't we just an opportunity to sort of review what that looks like Okay, um, so where do we go from here? Marla I think we're happy to have the city's public works director review the memo from our technical Person and to provide an opinion that we can review prior to closing the hearing. I think that's all we're asking for okay Marla, can we can we live with that? Yep all right Let's move on to number eight staff further recommends the board require the applicant to establish an executable plan for evaluating when each Planned I'm sorry. I'm in trouble reading planned off-site improvement be required staff for the regular Executable plan for evaluating when each planned off-site improvement be required Okay, didn't Didn't we already does this relate to amenities? No, this is for um The And I apologize. I think this was like the last thing I wrote before I totally crashed and burned after my second covid shot Um, the grammar is terrible. This is about the like um Traffic signals that are off-site that need to be Retimed or re-dingered in some way because of the traffic impacts of this project Um, how do we know when those are needed and not not just in a general like they are needed when they reach levels ever death, but like What is the specific plan for determining whether that trigger is reached? And that's something that can be done at final plot We're happy to do that Yeah, I will say Yeah Great, okay Now we're coming up on nine Which we've already discussed in great detail and we'll discuss in more detail But it is our thinking that numbers nine through 31 are a group of comments that um staff have made and We'd like to kind of take these together and ask you Evan Scott and Andrew If there are any that you can't live with Are there any that um, you can't incorporate And make work I think we can um cruise through them pretty quickly um and and let you know that uh number nine Is a requirement that I think that we we cannot live with and cannot make Um, I've spoken to that Uh, what I'd like to point out to you guys with regard to the tillie drive study Is that it's referenced here The tillie drive study looked at a large area, right? It looked at a number of different projects that were being proposed and they calculated in the study How many trips the build out of the tillie drive project area would generate And the build out was going to generate 5,821 trips They looked at our project and our project was 854 of those 5,800 trips Which is 14 of the trips Currently our project Right now is proposing a number of the rec paths, uh within Within that plan and in that project area They said these roadway improvements these three or four additional roads are needed And these shared use paths are needed in order to accommodate the demands of all of these 5,800 trips Of which o'brien is 14 percent Currently o'brien brothers project is constructing 26 percent of the rec paths that are Looked at in that study as required And that's excluding this additional portion down old farm road 14 percent of the trips and 26 percent of the shared use paths And that's based on two different metrics. We looked at both the linear footage of path proposed And the dollar cost of paths proposed that were outlined in the study. So using the study's own numbers And so, you know We're proposing about 27 percent of the linear footage 25 percent of the shared use paths and we have 14 percent of the trips that that study was looking at And the last thing that that you know, I wanted to point out about the study Was that the last sentence of the study Is that the city should that that the transportation demand strategy should be integrated into the official map Assessed for impact fees and prioritized in the city's capital improvement program So the conclusion of the study Is that there should be a mechanism created by the city to allow for all of these projects that are generating the 5800 trips To contribute proportionally to the to the strategies and shared use paths that are needed by all And so we feel that the 26 of the cost of the shared use paths and the 27 of the proposed linear footage of paths That we're proposing is Certainly our part Okay So I can let me just fly through the other ones that Number 10 Can I can I just ask a question because what are the next steps for nine? I just want I don't know I'm sorry. Um, this is not Time when we take public comment There will be opportunities for that. Um At the next continuation of this hearing So that nine is going to be in the next next round. Is that what it is? I just didn't there's no What's like there was no definitive next steps other than we went back to the beginning and said There's going to be discussions I'm just trying to figure out like what what's going on with nine like what are what are we doing like? What's the next step so you guys collaborating? We're talking about in another meeting Like what's going on? So this hearing Will not conclude tonight Or not be closed tonight. It will be continued at a later date And at that time there will be an opportunity for public comment Is that like when do I find out the later date is? Um It will be posted in the other people make that determination before we conclude tonight. Okay All right. Thank you Okay, go ahead Andrew Yeah comment a comment number 10. I believe is relating to connecting a shared use path through into the hillside development We we're looking into that. I think that we should we you know, we've demonstrated this east west connectivity is important We you know, we see that that's part of the bhp plan that we've proposed And so, you know, we are going to look at whether we can locate that rec path In the existing hillside neighborhood and find a way to that makes that work with the houses that are there It was in honesty. It was meant to end at two brothers drive And that it was shown to continue down in two brothers drive on the eligible street path But there we you know, we recognize the merit of the request. So we'll look into it final plan make a proposal Thank you, Andrew Oh, go ahead 11 we're fine with 11 On the the multi-use path width Going from eight feet to 10 feet I think that We do have some concerns about it that are primarily aesthetic In especially in front of the townhomes proposed on the meadow loop road fronting on old farm road I think We would prefer that that portion stay at eight feet But that's me that again. What section? The section in front of the meadow loop townhomes between the townhomes and old farm road We've got these really small setbacks For the townhomes And just the way that you know, the path looks at hillside The hillside path is only eight feet wide And if you sort of walk it or look at it, it almost looks like a parallel road And the proximity of the homes being close to the street and the path being so wide We just think aesthetically is is sort of Unattractive. So we think eight feet is is a good width But that you know, we're we can do whatever the board requires on that Standard, I'm sorry I was gonna say for reference if anybody's curious, if you were to go out to O'Brien farm road Drive through the townhouse portion of hillside on the west side. So the downhill style townhomes There's the eight foot community rec path, which is I think more than sufficient But it also the close proximity to the homes. It really does create a smaller door yard for them And it's typically the standard to have five five feet ten feet five feet for for people going in each direction Um, whereas an eight foot path would be four feet for people going in each direction Whether it's a bicyclist or a cyclist or a jogger We also have page 20 And I think the comment here comment number 11 or whatever it is wrong, um, I think the comment, you know specifically says This is a general comment and site specific exceptions are reasonable requests to make it final plot Here on page 20 You can kind of see the area that and who's talking about, um, you know I think that's if if they're okay with sort of the general statement that rec paths are Then be wide and then in this area Um It makes sense to have it be narrower than I think that's everybody's in agreement already I think to that point, um The way that you've worded the comment that we would agree and we would just propose exceptions at final plan Is that Okay All right, I'm getting concerned about the time. Let's move on to 13 13 is great 14 good 15 No problem. We're happy to extend infrastructure to the project border. Uh, that's sort of, you know We historically been the The you know the process um 16 is about extending the sidewalk, uh connection between two parts of our neighborhood across the front of The farmhouse property that we do not own I Think that, you know, we're open to this as well Okay 17 And i'm not reading these because 17, uh, 17 is fine. We're we're we're gonna 18 So on 18, we did have a minor Request so the specific provision is that the legacy farm extension road would be built all the way to the property line The regulation allows for us to build it to the property line or to to contribute the cost Uh of completing the roadway connection We'd prefer to contribute the cost because coverage problem and we have, you know, we have a severe And so we would rather not build that coverage in the future that coverage will be in a city right of way And won't count against our development. Um, and so we would we would propose the costs rather than the construction Except Come on Go ahead dan For ease of the public who may view a recording of this meeting. Can we ask the Delilah? Zoom in and scroll through these numbered items as we talk about them Thank you. That's a great suggestion We see a map Sorry, I've gone into pause And they can zoom in as much as you can as we go You can also zoom in from your computer No, I can it's more the the recorder whoever right right right. Okay. Thanks So, um, I think the comment 19 about the walking path through the open space running parallel to the ic road Is something that You know, we we did want to talk about it might make sense to just Comprehensive proposal on these these walking path at at final that and at the table this conversation. I think You know, we're interested in sort of understanding what that wildlife corridor looks like Um, you know having a path through it what the path can look like and sort of what the grading and retaining walls And different aspects of that area are going to be how suitable it would be for for the path to begin with So I think uh, we have You know a few concerns with with this specific comment And with sort of running that path In this new configuration so we can we can happy to talk about it with you guys now But I think we might have more information to sort of triangulate this and make a better proposal You know, for instance the rec path currently is just kind of roughed in here Trying to make the grading work and I think you know, we're likely to Find tune this Proposal for this open space with our landscaping plans at final plat. So I would recommend we just Push on this okay number 20 20 was good 21, uh, I've got okay great Thank you. No problem great 23, uh Provides to include legacy farm extension extended to the end of the right way So again the same request to contribute cost rather than the Build the road okay I think 24 and 25 talking about Late like road widths And I think scott reviewed this. I think that these were all We were with all this is that right scott the rope? We're happy to reduce the road widths Not a conversation justin about it Okay, good 26 Looks like I've got a little bit of a hole in my A 26 is still road widths, right? Yes, so that's 26 and 27 are good Okay curb cuts 28 Yeah, I think these 28 was fine 29 consolidating curb cuts Scott, I did I must have missed these a couple of comments But 30 is 30. Did you talk about that scott increasing the road base layer to two and a half inches? That's fine. That's that's something that's become more typical over the last five ten years Just increase pavement depth. Okay and 31 Complete roadway plans are yeah, they're absolutely going to be part of final plat Okay, all right So So there are 19 more comments um I am thinking it's getting late. I think we're all tired And I'm thinking that we should um Conclude this hearing for tonight. Do we have to vote on that marla? You too Um, no, yes, you do. Sorry. I guess I'm tired too um, so the things that are outstanding are Pretty significant and we pushed them from the last time So there's been no discussion as of yet of the c1 lr zoning district um, there's um Yeah, so almost I guess half of the remaining comments are about the c1 lr um, and then we talk about the ic and open spaces and then go into some more depth on waivers um, I got three applications in on one thing I'm wondering if we just kind of Take time for a special meeting. I don't know if people have the energy or the time for that I'd be fine with a special meeting, you know an additional meeting I have more time and energy for a special meeting than to keep going tonight. Let's put it that way Exactly. Yeah, I couldn't agree more mark. Yeah, what you're saying is I asked at the right time What did you say marla? Yeah, so I asked at the right time is what you're saying? Yeah, yeah, you have just how to push our buttons We're ready to Whatever you say dear as the saying goes Yep um We don't really need to do any additional prep work um I do rather Like tuesdays What do people think do we want to do next tuesdays at 25th? Were you nodding your head? No, alissa Tuesday is the absolute worst day for me if anyone else is open to any other day Oh, okay Let me try to change after returning to work from COVID lockdown and tuesday is my friday Okay I assume that applies to tonight as well so we should apologize But i'm sorry to hear you andrew I I just made a joke. We should apologize for tonight as well if tonight's for friday. I feel bad I bet yeah Planting your calendar jam. Oh Yeah, i'm i'm i'm pretty flexible. Yeah Yeah, i'm pretty flexible Next week is pretty good Monday Wednesday, i'm really easy Yeah, honestly only type in on the calendar. I can get away with it. So I would love to do a monday or thursday if that works for people but Yeah, i'm not gonna be able to decide Commit tonight or right now Yeah I cannot do thursday the 27th Yeah, monday or wednesday would work for me Um somebody tell me the dates 24th the 26th does that would monday give you enough time? Everybody to think all this through and We're just continuing on where we left off, correct? Right. Yeah. Yeah No new staff report nothing Wait, we're not trafficking anything. We're just picking a cat Um either We'd be great if we had time to get that that, you know, have a conversation with justin about the couple of traffic items I assume that can happen in a week Want to do the wednesday then? I'm good with that. Is anyone not good with wednesday? I know jim. You can't commit but Wait, there's a do you have to warn this barlow? No, it's a continuation Well, there's a community hike webinar that we'd be conflicting with I think that's fine I mean unless anybody really has a burning need to go to the community hike webinar Okay, monday seven o'clock seven o'clock time seeing that station Great. Thank you all. Are we on 32? Yeah, yes, we start with 32 um Can we hold off the minutes for next week too? Yeah, but we do have to vote to Yep All right, I make a motion that we continue Whatever this number is sd 2040 sd 2040 500 old farm road of ryan east few to Wednesday the 26th at 7 p.m Opposed Okay, we will see you next week On wednesday at seven o'clock Thank you all for that. Thanks very much guys. Appreciate it. Good night Good day I Can we hold the minutes off till next week? We can Okay Someone want to move adjournment We do not need to do that We don't Okay Let don't you're in charge. You just tell us to go to bed. Okay Um, this is where the real power comes in, right? Um, okay. We are adjourned sleep well everyone. We'll see you next week