 You're not spiritual. You're a politician. I went from the absolute top to the absolute bottom and he went, oh yes, some people I know cannot stand you. You are like the first person that when they see you, they reach for the remote. I'm about to be a reality TV star. I really hated Kevin Spacey. Shoot the shit. Chris and Anne style. Anjali, how are you? I am very well, my darling. How are you? Yes, I'm good. I'm taking care to get your name right because once bitten, don't do that again. As far as I'm concerned, Chris, you never got my name wrong. That never happened. Well, it's like I was just saying I knew you as Ange, didn't I? And when we met, I was very Anglo-centric, so typical English guy. Correct. And so when you introduce yourself as Ange, you say, oh, it's Ange, probably Angie, right? Actually, back in these days, I think I did introduce myself as that because there was a lot of time in my life where I thought that if I introduced myself by my real name, which is Anjali, that people wouldn't remember or wouldn't be able to pronounce it. But now if somebody can't pronounce it, it's like, you know what? It's three syllables. If you can't pronounce three syllables, I'm not the problem. Yes, it's that thing, isn't it? Well, I don't think anyone should ever be changing their name to make it more acceptable in another country or another culture, right? We get the same... Half my family have... Go on. Half my family have done that, my God. And no matter where they've moved. So being half Australian, half Indian, the Indian ones have changed it when they've moved to states or to the UK or to Canada or Australia. And over here in Australia, I'm often called Anjali as I am in the UK. And maybe it would be the easier thing to say, yeah, all right, fine. Yeah, just go with that. But I never will. It's like, no, I'm standing up for all the Anjali's out there. Yes, and you're doing a fine job. Maybe we should tell your listeners what happened. So we were really great friends. But I always noticed there was something strange about you. There was something just not quite right. And I was only 22, 21, actually. So I didn't, you know, know much about the world or anything like that. And, you know, you always look like you were wearing your dad's suits, like if your dad was 30 stone. And they were always gray, like nobody good look of 90s anyway, but they were always gray suits. And you always, your skin was always gray. But your eyes were super piercing, like super blue. And I didn't think anything of it. And one day, you came up to my parents house, my parents are fabulously well to do. And, you know, lived on, you know, the sort of the, you know, Porsche's part of Hong Kong right on the top of the peak. And they went there and invited you over and, you know, just had this great time. And you told me at that time that you were, it was, it seems so sort of strange to say now, but I remember you saying I'm addicted to drugs. It wasn't specific. Of course I knew, oh my God, that means heroin. And that explains everything. It's like, yeah, in my wisdom at 21. And I knew that from then on, I could never be friends with you. So when we got back to work on Monday, I was just like, that's it, all better off. No, no, no, no, no, no. And we had a massive fight, huge, right in the middle of the office, huge, great big Barney. And I said to you, oh my God, why are you so neurotic? And you said, you said, I can't be neurotic. Only women and dogs can be neurotic. And I went round to my side of the partition and I grabbed my dictionary because, you know, I had a dictionary, obviously. And I opened it to the word neurotic and I came round to your side of the partition, I slammed it on your desk. And I said, gay is a fucking education. And of course, I said, you know, neurotic. People can have neuroses or something like that. That was the last one we ever speak to each other. It was in a fury and I quit later that day. And I never, I don't think I ever saw you again. But as the years passed, I thought about you sometimes. And then I thought about you more than sometimes. And then I thought about you really frequently. And I would try to look you up on everything. And there was no crystal anywhere, no socials, no nothing, zero. And I would tell, you know, people who are close to me, I'm desperately trying to find my old friend. He's dead. I think he's dead. And then one day, like eight years ago, it just popped up by chance on my Twitter feed, the number one book on Amazon that we was eating smoked by Chris Thrall. And it was like, that's an unusual name. I looked you up on Facebook. There you were. I messaged straight away. And not one minute past before you messaged back. And I burst into tears. I burst into tears, honey. And, you know, for them for us to talk. And this is so many years ago. And it's still kind of gets me when you said, you know, if you read my book, you're in it. I was like, what? What? And he said, yeah, your name's Kerry. Oh, my God. So cool. So reading the book. And it's essentially a replica of what happened that day at my parents' house on the peak. Except then, it was much more negligee. And I'm in my dressing gown tonight. And it's much more sort of Vegemite stains. And you know, just into the gym rather than, you know, lace. But it just, it's still blows my mind, honey, that not only that you have written the most tremendous works, that you're fucking alive, Chris, that you're alive. I seriously thought you were dead. Well, I probably should have been after, after we saw each other for the last time things. Yeah. Things. Yeah. What can I say? They took a turn for the interesting. I know, but isn't it just so funny that even though we were only in each other's lives day to day for a very short period of time, you were so heavily in my heart. And obviously, you know, if I made it into your book, it was with you too. Just so strange to think that sometimes people can be in your life for just a moment. But it's not, it's so much more than that. Yes. It's so much more that 20 years later or 15 years later, you can write a book and you're going to put all these people in it. Yeah. You were like the most beautiful girl I'd ever met. Really? You should get out more. Wow. Thanks, honey. Wow. It was an interesting time, wasn't it? Would you ever get back to Hong Kong? Yeah, I'd love to. I went back in 2011, believe it or not. Did you? Yeah. Anybody there that you still knew? Oh, God. It was a bizarre experience. Well, I went back for my book launch because I had a, my first publisher was a Hong Kong publisher. So quick story. I get a phone call from Hong Kong one day. Hi, Chris. It's Pete. I'm the director of Blacksmith Books in Hong Kong. I've heard you're writing a memoir about your time, blah, blah, blah. And I said, yeah, he said, okay, when you finish, can we publish it? So I was kind of, what, do you want me to like send you a copy? Do you want to, you know, what should I send you? And he's like, no, no, no, we'll, we'll just, just let us know when you finish it. We'll publish it. So it was really, that's quite a moment in your, in your life, you know? Of course. When you work so hard writing a book takes at least a year. That's weird. I just, there's only one book in my studio. I've just noticed that. That is a complete coincidence. Yes. Well, but yeah, sorry. Yeah, that would have been the most major thing. Yeah. Well, it was a big, I mean, okay, I've got to peel back a bit. So when I started writing the book, I thought, right, I want to write a bestseller. I don't want to write any, any book, right? Not that people shouldn't write books. It's just, for me, I wanted to write a, of course, if you're going to do it, do it. Yeah. And it's quite a process, you know, you have to apply yourself, you have to knuckle down, you have to be, you have to have a routine. You've got to learn an awful lot, especially for people like me that didn't really learn a lot when we were at school. There's a massive amount of learning. You've got to learn punctuation, grammar, editing, narrative, scene setting, all this kind of stuff. And so when Pete said, we'll publish you, yeah, that was quite a, quite a nice moment. And then when he did publish me, I flew to Hong Kong for the first time in, what would that be, 2011, 14 years. And yeah, it was incredible. It was incredible. It was just a combination of nostalgia, emotion, a bit of sadness, but only for the right reasons. But yeah. Was Vince still alive then? Say again. Was Vince still alive then? No. No. So what happened was I phoned Vince about, let me think, when I got back from Hong Kong in 1996, just coming into 97, I phoned Vince around 2002. That's how long it took me to sort of get my, well, at least start to get my life back together and get, get my head back together. And I phoned him in Hong Kong. I got the number. I have one business card of a mutual acquaintance, Amy Wong, she was called. And I called and I said, Amy, are you still in touch with, with Vince? And she's like, yeah, yeah. She gave me his number and I called him. Well, you know what it's like. Why? I said, Vince, it's Chris. Ah, Chris, how you doing? When you come back to Hong Kong? I got company now. When you come back, I will make you director, right? And it was if people see how our French, I mean, I love Vince, you know, he was like a big brother figure to me. He was, he was just a dynamo in the business world. And the other thing he had, which is really special is he had the ability to step between Chinese culture and mine to explain things to me. And he never, you know, there must have been lots of times I upset him because I didn't know the culture. And yet, very rarely would he ever sort of, you know, tear a strip off me. So I called him to apologize is what I'm, what I'm trying to say. And he's like, yeah, no problem. Come back to Hong Kong. You know, you come and work in my company and he'd started a manpower services company. And so all the time I wrote eating smoke, I'm thinking about the people in it. And of course, I'm thinking about Vince. And I'm thinking, wow, when I've, I've got this publishing deal now, I'll be going back to Hong Kong. It's going to be incredible to, you know, hook up hook up with him. It's just always like a dream come true. You know, again, for people listening, we finished on really bad terms. I got so unwell that he just couldn't be like dealing dealing with me, you know, when he went from being this guy that absolutely loved me to saying basically fuck off, right? So book my ticket for Hong Kong a week before I called Vince's company or three days before, I think it was. And the secretary answered. And I said, can I speak to Mr Lee? She said, no, I cannot. I said, why? She said he died heart attack. And I'm like, what? And somehow I got in touch with his former brother-in-law. I think it was he was now a director in his company, something like this. And he explained it to me that Vince had some sort of heart disease rather than get proper treatment. He'd been going to a herbalist, a Chinese herbalist and trying to plow on through as he always did. And yeah, that was a bit of a fuck, you know? Yeah. I was so much looking forward to seeing him. Yeah. There you go. But what I did do is I met up with his former wife while I was over there. Oh, now you're back. Now you're back. Yeah. So I met up with Miss Lynn who was his former wife. She came to my book launch and then we spent a day together traveling. We traveled to Lamar Island, which is where Vince's ashes were scattered. Yeah. Funny life, isn't it? The world of Lamar Island. Did you spend much time there? Lots of spirits around there and Vince would be one. Yes. I love Lamar Island. It hasn't, it really hasn't changed much at all. No, it hasn't. It's the one part of Hong Kong that hasn't. Yeah. My memory of you leaving Hong Kong, I thought you'd got a job with MTV, but you've gone on to do so much more. Oh, I suppose I did. So I quit the computer components company right after I started. That was it for me. I was out. And I know that I would always tell you I'm going to be a TV presenter and that's all there is to it. And some people went, yeah, okay, and some people went, yeah, you know what you are. And the latter people were the ones who are right because I did. I went off and got my first TV internship and from, you know, some swings and roundabouts. Eventually found myself as an anchor for Sky News in the UK. And then I got poached from Sky, which is the hardest job that anybody will ever do on TV. And I got poached by CNN. And so I became an anchor for CNN for years and years and years. And that's what I am. I'm a television news journalist and I've covered every sort of breaking thing in the last 15 years. Yeah, I didn't doubt you. I think I was the opposite. I thought, yeah, that's probably what you're going to do. You've never doubted me, Chris. Well, but it's also, what can you say? You had that, I don't see background. That sounds a bit patronising because I think we've all had our fair share of ups and downs growing up. I mean, even boarding school isn't easy, is it? Depends. For me, it was a dream run. But I'm like that. I've never set foot in England in my life. And at the age of 11, there I was sort of, you know, dropped at this boarding school. And, you know, mum went off down the sort of, you know, three mile long driveway back to Hong Kong. And there I was. But I loved it. I really, really thrived. Not everyone does. But I'm still sort of like that. I really enjoy being a blank canvas, just sort of, you know, put into situations where no one knows you and you can just be anyone. Anyone. So I really loved it. And, you know, when people go, oh my God, oh my God, like, you know, like I was in some sort of, you know, Dickensian nightmare. Like, how could parents have done that? It's like, nah, robbed. Yeah, going back to the MTV thing, when you first said I want to be a presenter on MTV, I didn't have any doubt because I can't really, well, I've got to do my best to explain it. There's a certain type of person, isn't there, that does, that the media is looking for. Not like a someone that's off their head, half the time. Except, I just, well, actually, yeah, sorry, we're kind of a job prerequisite these days, Chris. Yeah, sorry, we're confusing people. What I meant is, it's, I said to you, what does it take to get a job with MTV? And you said, I've got to go for the interview. And I've just got to be bubbly and lively and absolutely questions with a smile. And I thought, yeah, you'll, you'll, if anyone can do that, you'll do that. I did go for the wind test. I did actually go. And the guy who was in charge at the time said, so if you got this job, would you just like drop everything else? Like, you know, your whole sort of news journalism dreams, everything you've worked for at uni, would you just drop that? And I went, no. And he went, good call. And so that was the end of that. And I didn't get the job. I didn't even get the job as the weather presenter on local Hong Kong TV. But look, you know, it was a bit of being in the right place at the right time. And also look, if somebody had told me that I would make, you know, my life doing breaking news, which means there is nothing on the prompter zero on your auto queue. Oh, there's one word. There is one word that's left on, you know, it's sitting there like happily reading away, the auto queue. It's like, fine, nothing is going on in the world today. Bam. There's one word that's left blank. Sorry. There's one word that's left on the auto queue. And it's blank. The word is blank. And you go, oh, you don't think that I can see that it's blank? It means breaking news. You'll hear it in your earpiece. And someone's dead. Go. And you just, and at first just go, there's like, there's no information, there's nothing, but you just got to keep it going and keep it going. Keep it. If somebody had told me that I would make my fortune doing that, I probably would have punched them very hard in the nads. But that's that's kind of how it all happened and how I got to be an anchor on CNN. And it just turned out that, you know, when just when you get thrown in and you go, I'm going to sink so badly, but then it turns out that actually you float and it's like, I can do this. I can do this on any topic that gets thrown at me. And I never thought that I thought you're right. I thought my whole future was in being an MTV BJ. Were the media trying to put out a specific agenda? Do you get told, right, keep within these guidelines, this this kind of thing? Yes and no. And you'll only know when you say the thing that's unpalatable. You'll only know after you say it. Yeah. So, you know, then you get absolutely rained. But you know, I suppose it's, okay, well, you mustn't ever editorialize. But now, if you don't editorialize, that doesn't rate. Nobody watches that. You've got to be polarizing on either side. And that's a new thing for me to get my head around. Because I was always taught you've got to be straight down the middle. Don't even make a facial expression that shows how you might feel about a particular subject or a particular interviewee. And I remember when I resigned from CNN and I decided to move to Australia and get into TV over here. I met up with my old boss. He gave me my very first anchoring job. And he was his fantastic American guy. He was sort of, you know, famous for reporting from Narm, blah, blah, blah. But he is still always reporting from Narm, everything that he says. And so I was like, do you know, Jim, I'm moving into a local market and I've only ever been sort of like international like, you know, look at CNN, there were 220 million people watching me every day. So while I'm moving into a local market, and so, you know, I haven't really done that before. You know, other than Skynes, what should I do? And he was like, Angeline, you've got to remember one thing. Okay, what's that? And he said, the people love you or they hate you. And I said, people hate me like going, oh, I knew that he would go, no, no, no, I was speaking generally, of course not. And he went, oh yes, some people I know cannot stand you. You are like the first person that when they see you, they reach for the remote. Oh my God. But he said, that's the important thing. You can't be down the middle anymore. Even if they hate you, they're watching you. You've got to be really loved or really hated. And so that's, that's where we're at at the moment. Yes, you can't please all the people all the time though, can you? You can't. And that's when you're a really thick-skinned person like me, that's difficult to take. When you get horrid backlash, you know, on socials, it's evil. Some of it is just evil. Yes. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? We kind of share this. Obviously, myself not on the scale that you must have experienced it. But what have you, anybody who puts themselves out there, Chris, always gets some crap. What have you gotten? Oh, I don't really get a lot, a lot to be honest. And good. You don't deserve it. It's just horrific Twitter, honestly. If I could take myself off it, I would do it in a trice. But you know, it's about to get a lot worse for me. Like a lot lower. Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. What have you done? It's what I'm about to do. So I always thought that you couldn't get more reality TV than the news. But I'm about to be a reality TV star. Wow. Are we allowed to ask what show? I am the newest housewife on Real Housewives of Melbourne. Oh, my gosh. No. Yes. It was not my idea. But you know, it's like, sort of intrapenny intrapound. So that's happening. Oh, my gosh. No, I'm not even a... I'm not a wife. I think it's like ironic terms, like Real Housewives. Okay, well, all right. So yeah, it's going on. And you know what? Now it's like, yes, sorting, bring it. Bring it. Yes. My gosh. Oh, no. So I think over there, where you are, you've got Real Housewives of Cheshire. I think that's like a big one. But it's huge. You're testing the wrong person now, because... I mean, I'd never watched an episode in my life, but they came after me hard and so I went, all right. I said, no, no, no. Nothing good is going to happen here. No. And then I was convinced otherwise. But it's quite a... I mean, from what I understand, just probably mainly from your social media posts, is Melbourne is quite a... It's a place, isn't it? It's quite... You've got a bit of, can we say, Huypilloy? A bit of the... Of sure. Yeah, we do. We do. I just didn't know that I was in it. But anyway, apparently I am. But look, it's a massive, massive series in the US as well. And they love the Melbourne version. But it's pretty scary going into reality TV with, you know, six other women and just going, okay, and now, you know, handbags are dawn. Do you have to play a role? Do they want you to try and be a certain person? Of course not, Chris. That's why they call it reality TV. Occasionally, well, quite a lot now, you get reality TV stars. And they're really not the person that they were in the program. That's what I was trying to say. Oh, absolutely. No one is. You know, I suppose to an extent, even, you know, those of us who, you know, who are TV journalists who, you know, do the news, sometimes there is an act that you kind of have to play. There really isn't anybody who says that that isn't true, is making it up. There always is an element of, you've got to have a little bit of theatre, because the news is still, I think it's still entertainment. If it wasn't entertaining, nobody would watch it. And that doesn't matter whether it's in a hideously depressing or, you know, it makes you angry or whatever, it elicits emotions. And in order to elicit those emotions, you want to do that more and more these days, you've got to have a little bit of an act. So, yeah, look, we all do in reality TV. Do you think that's going to be a problem with you're going to have like two personas? And so, I mean, just for example, you might be getting attacked on Twitter based on your character in the TV show, as opposed to the real you. Is that going to be something that's an issue? God, I hadn't even thought about that. God, it could potentially be. I don't know. I just know that I'm going to get absolutely hammered, you know, when it does come. But look, it's one of those things where I just go, I'll never know, because I just won't read my Twitter page. But if you don't do that, that's basically a sackable offense. You have to engage. And there are going to be some really nasty, hurtful things said. And maybe it's a good lesson in learning how to let things watch over you. But you know what? At my age, it's like, most things watch over me anyway. Yeah. Yeah. How much time will a TV crew spend with you? Is it kind of invasive or is it probably not as much as the public might take? Not as much as say, you know, I'm a celebrity or I don't know, Love Island or any of that nonsense. You're like married at first, whatever. Not like that. Because, you know, as housewives, real housewives, we're sort of, we've got plenty going on, darling. I can't constantly be on camera. Oh my God, you know. And so, look at 16 weeks of very intensive filming. But we do all have other lives. Like, you know, I've got my nightly podcast, I've got to do, I've got like a whole bunch of MCing, which I've spent years building up. That's on my main business, you know, with TV gigs. So much is happening. I mean, somewhere in there, I have to take care of my son and my cats. So, you know, all of that has to be accounted for. But that's just me. Then there's, you know, five or six other housewives who also have super busy lives and careers. Well, some of them don't, some of them married well. And, but I'm sure that they're busy, you know, getting fake towns. I didn't have to worry about that because I'm half Indian. So that saves me some time. There you go. I was back last, I say last year, because it's like 2020 didn't happen. So by last year is actually 2019. Yeah, I was, I was back there and had the most wonderful time, you know, back in the family seat, which is beautiful. So I took my son to, you know, Harry Potter World in London. And look, it was the first time that I'd been able to afford to go back to the UK since I moved to Australia. Because when I was at CNN, oh my God, I had three yachts. I had a boat boy. I had four club memberships. I had my beautiful house. My son had his own maid. We had a regular helper, you know, and just like, do you know what? I'm bored. Let's go to New York. Yeah, it was like, like, yeah, you know, so I can't move over here after I resigned, left my husband, and then right down to the bottom, zero, zero, got to a point where I had 17 cents in the bank. And by that, I don't mean I have 17 cents and house that I owned or car or stocks. I had 17 cents. I went from the absolute top to the absolute bottom. It was so horrific and so difficult. Of course, I look back and go, well, it was all my fault, because everybody does that. And just, you know, spent all this time building myself back up. It's taken eight years. And now, you know, I'm deemed worthy of being a real housewife of Melbourne. But so the answer to your question is that it took me all those years to be able to afford to take my son back to the UK and go, I actually have enough disposable cash to take the two of us back to Hong Kong for a few days and then onto Harry Potter World and then down to my parents and Cornwall and just have the most wonderful holiday. And I just felt so lucky, but I worked my stunning ass off. I've worked my ass off for everything, but that was really, I've never been so down. And it wasn't like somebody going, you know, anybody in my family would have been going, oh, darling, here's a bunch of cash, you know, don't worry, pay us back whenever. Nothing, nothing, zero, zero, zero. So everything that I have now, I'm so super proud of. And I've just built it from nothing. But nobody would ever know because I have this accent that's like, gosh, tell me about you. Yeah, life throws these challenges at us, doesn't it? Life's rich tapestry. Yes, they're not so fun at the time. No, they aren't. Do you remember saying to me that your parents or your house's garage, which was on the peak for people listening, the peak in Hong Kong is very prominent famous landmark. How do you describe the peak like a sort of bit of a mountain, isn't it? Well, yes, it is the peak. It's called a Victoria Peak, and the peak is at the top. I'm going to get a picture up. If you move at the top of the peak, the higher up the peak you go, the more expensive the real estate. And I was very lucky and my parents worked there. Absolutely. As often we had the most beautiful place that of course, Chris, you saw, you know, huge right on the top of the peak. Of course, it wasn't always like that. But when they reached the end of their careers was, and every single day, we were just beyond thankful. Anjali, can we talk about your time with CNN? Because that's quite a, you know, not many people in their life are going to get a job as an anchor person with CNN. Can you tell us, can you tell our audience, the people that you spoke to, because I know you spoke to the Dalai Lama, didn't you? I certainly did. Well, did you interview him? Yes, he spoke the whole day with me. Yeah, you sent me the link to watch it, to watch the video. Yeah, so with that one, so on CNN, I hosted the Monday to Friday primetime breakfast show to the world. So that was, and it was primetime US evening as well, which was great. So yeah, a lot of people watching. And, you know, although I'd spent many years doing the news and all that, that wasn't my love. And CNN knew that. So they gave me my own celebrity chat show. So, and that was a weekly program. And so whoever happened to be in the Asia Pacific, I would fly to them and do it. Essentially, this is your life. And that was my absolute love. It was fantastic. So yeah, I interviewed. And when I say interviewed a lot of the time, it wasn't just like turn up, you know, ask the questions half an hour later, it's done. A lot of the time, these people would spend like a whole day or just like hanging out or, you know, sometimes multiple days. And there were many of them who I feel so fortunate. I was like, oh, my God, whenever I'm in a hotel room anywhere in the world, I switch on and you're there. You're like, my God, you're like my comfort blanket to me. It's like, oh, gosh, my word. Thank you. So it was like we already had a relationship a lot of the time before I got there. So look, I had, you know, the most amazing, amazing time with the Dalai Lama. He's just, there were other sort of, you know, so-called, you know, men of God who I've, you know, spent time with whenever it's like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, you're not spiritual. You're a politician. No, the Dalai Lama or something else. It's- He's the real deal, is he? Completely. And so I totally intangible feeling it's like something crazy has just happened here. And even my, you know, jaded male camera crew, who've seen it all, it's like whatever, you're just another person to us, who's just like, oh, my God, oh, my God, this is amazing. So that we, we had an absolutely incredible time with him. And there are so many others I absolutely love. Like, I loved Rihanna and Gwyneth Paltrow and Jay-Z and Kanye West. Kotze loved Roger Federer. He was amazing. He played tennis with me. And I want to point, which he clearly led to me win. I really hated Kevin Spacey, but it's okay because he hated me too. Yeah, though, you know, all sorts of amazing, just incredible people. But you know how to say you should never meet your heroes. I did and we had a fight and it was like heartbreaking. It was, you again know exactly, when I say it's Slash from Guns N' Roses, you're gonna be like, oh, my God, of course, Slash would be your hero, wouldn't he? Because I was such a headbanging rock-picking, I still am. What happened there then? I mean, I think I can imagine what happened, but was he having a bad day? No, no, we absolutely loved each other. And you know, the full-on flirt fest was absolutely, you know, carrying on was great. But sometimes, you know, you can get on really, really well with somebody off camera. And then the second that they see the red light go on, bam, you are the evil journalist sent there to skewer them and they are the sacrificial lamb, that's it. And it was a bit like that. But because we got on so well off camera, and there were certain things that I could say, I was saying to him that he knew, he was like, how could you possibly know that? Because I don't present as the archetypal guns and roses fan. And so he was just really intrigued by me. So he knew that I knew things that I maybe shouldn't have. And then I started asking him about Axel and the feud between them that had been for years and years and years, and he's never spoken about it. So he answered, you know, God bless him, he did answer. But it was short. And I thought, I need more than that. So I tried it again a different way. And he answered, but it was shorter. I thought, have I got a third in me? Bear in mind, he's like under the whole hair and the big old hat and the mirrored sunglasses. It's very intimidating. And so I tried for a third, and he absolutely cut me down. It was like, you know, if you carry on down this path, this interview is over. I didn't play that game. It was like, I'm gonna be sick. Because I still had half the interview to go. It was rough. Yeah, really rough. But we made up. We did make up after that. It was, it was, it was not fun. Kevin Spacey and I did not make up. That was the end of that. What a dick. But look, you know, I loved, you know, lots of the fashion designers, particularly Colin Otterfeld, who never gave interviews, never gave interviews. And he was amazing to me, absolutely incredible. But also close to the day I first number met. Did you give him any fashion tips? I did. I said, what the hell is with this, this, this, this, this, this is so last year. I know. This is like not Richard Shea. Do you find with the podcasting, it's different to interviewing? I mean, it should be. It depends because what what the podcast is, because you and I have just sort of been having like a chat, like we normally would, if we were just, you know, sitting at, I don't know, Bitpoint and Lanquifon, not the Big Apple, we wouldn't be having a conversation at all. But yeah, so, you know, my podcast, a lot of the ones I do are incredibly structured. It's like, we're doing this many minutes for this and this many minutes for that, and after this, we'll do this. And then it's like, you throw to this person and then you wrap and the end. So it's, I can't remember the last time that I just did a sort of three-wheeling conversation like this. So when you say podcast, that's sort of like saying, you know, when you do this kind of television, has it different to that kind of television? It's all the same thing. You're still doing the same medium. It just depends on, you know, the way in which you fashion it really. It's just like a large piece of fabric and how you cut it. Yeah, I finally get people come to the podcast and if they're sort of my age and above, I think they think that's 21. I think they think they're coming for an interview and it's going to be, you know, chung, chung, chung, chung, chung. Yeah, I didn't, I had no idea. You didn't tell me anything. So I just thought, okay, it's just going to be a, you know, shoot the shit, christen and style. Yeah, I much prefer the chat with a few, you know, structured notes or whatever. But I had, excuse me, I had, God, I had that situation you were talking about with slash with one of my guests once. And there was just this massively, wasn't an awkward moment, isn't the right, isn't the right word? It all came to a head in one minute. And I think my guest thought I was trying to needle her on something. And anyone that knows my podcast knows, it's just, it's not about that. You talk about what you want to talk about, the stuff you don't, you don't. And if you say anything that afterwards you think, oh my God, I really wish I hadn't said that we can just edit that out, right? It very rarely happens. I think we've done that. We've only, only done that once. But yeah, this, it was as if I was doing like a mainstream media interview. And the way the guest just turned on me and went, right, no, you don't want to go there. And clearly the, clearly the point I touched on was had some historic stuff with her, right? I mean, I know. But I wasn't to know. I was just asking an innocent, you know, innocent question. But I know Chris is so innocent. Yes. Yes, honestly. So what's the pressure like working for such a big channel? And the other question I want to ask is, do you get like, let's just say your cliche millionaire, get, try and get hold of you because they want to marry you or, or stuff like this. Do you get like oil shakes go, ah, yes. Absolutely. Yeah. But yeah, of course, there's, you know, people who, because they can afford everything and or they've always been given everything can afford you because, you know, everybody's got a price allegedly. So of course, yes, that has happened a few times. And it's, it's just horrible. It's nasty. It just, you know, even they almost like, you know, okay, it was lovely to meet you. I'm going to take my leave now. You just feel like, I think I need to sort of like have a bath in bleach with a wire brush. It's, it's nasty. And it does happen to you. Like, it doesn't matter how far off the food chain you are, you know, it's like, people think that because they can, to them, they can have anything they want. And you're just an, any thing, your thing, you're not a person. So yeah, that has happened a bit. And it's not been pleasant. But, you know, just yes, it's your dick head and move on. That's it. That's it. It's not you can go report them to the cops or anything. Well, because of the pressure. It's sometimes it, it was like, you know, the veins in my head felt like that they were just going to completely explode. It just, you know, and when you get all right, you know, I got 220 million people around the world watching me. That's not the pressure at all. It's the one person who's your boss who's watching. That's it. But nobody can be on all the time. Like sometimes, you know, you do have an after, you know, somebody did, you died or something like that, you know, nobody can be on all the time, but you can't ever let on. And when you're in, so for me, it was Sky News UK and followed by CNN, they're both 24 hour news networks, which means that breaking news happens all the time. It can be anything, anything, which means you have to know absolutely everything. Nobody can know absolutely everything. No one can. So when you asked me before about, you know, whether some of it's an act, well, it has to be. It has to be, even for the most consummate journalist, because there are times in there where you have a zero information and you've got to feel somehow, how do you do that? You act. But it's, of course, it's like sometimes your heart is in your throat. But what I realized is when you're in massive, essentially flight mode, like, oh, you're sitting right there going, shit, is it too late to fall in sick? You don't realize what your brain has absorbed that you never knew that it did or could. And all of a sudden, when the adrenaline kicks, and you are, there's absolutely nothing you can do. You have to do this. Oh my God, your mouth starts talking and it's like, no idea, I knew that. Oh my God, that's crazy. And then all of a sudden, all this information has gone into your brain, which is the most incredible thing in the world. And you're actually fine. It's fine. It's like, you got this. You really do have this. And then when you get off said, sometimes you're flying. It's like the greatest drug you can be on. Just like, oh, oh my God, yeah, you did it, did it. You know, even if you've been on for eight hours live with nothing on the autocube, nothing. It just, it takes off, but there are other days where you just go, oh shit, I'm going to choke. I'm going to choke. But luckily somehow I never did. Yeah, you were really good. You can see that in your interviews. You were very measured, very calm, very professional. And yeah, but when I say I never did, actually, I did a lot. It's, it's not how you fuck it up. It's how you cover the fuck up. And I think I covered really well, but I definitely messed it up a whole bunch of times. Say the V. I think as long as you just keep talking, people don't realise when there's a screw up, do they? Oh, and over there, you know, in particular tactics that us anchors use when we run out of things to say. And yes, no one teaches you this. A lot of news, it's kind of circular, isn't it? It's the same information. You're just saying it over and over again or getting some sort of irrelevant filler in that's not really taking the story. I mean, basically, they don't know what's happening, but they've got this bit of information and that's what they've got to work with. You've got time to fill. And, you know, there's like what I've always said, no anchor ever wants to hear. And I used to call it the KTG because I was like, please don't let the KTG don't let me hear the KTG. Oh, my God. It's when the producer gets in your ear, because they know that you're running out of material. Keep this going. I know, I know. Well, yeah, they'll give you the symbol for stretch, like stretch this. And, you know, if it's an interview and somebody's giving you like more syllables as answers, it's like, what the hell do you all we did do with this? Oh, that reminded me. When you're asking about sort of, you know, greatest people I interviewed, there was the one that got the most hits on YouTube by far was the day I spent with KB Bryant, which was I don't know why it did. I don't know. And this is like, you know, when it first came out and over the years, people have gone back to that interview over and over and over again. I don't know why, but he was just gorgeous, absolutely gorgeous in every way. Yeah. I'm right in saying he died in a helicopter crash, is that? He did. He did with his daughter. Yeah, that must have been a bit of a bit of pill for you to have to swallow. Oh, you know, every time that I've sort of, you know, spent significant time with people who die, you know, that I've interviewed, it always, it hurts like it hurts. You know, and but more than that, you just sort of thankful for the time, like the small time that you got to do a sort of like, this is your life kind of thing with them. And yeah, that was, that was all for so many reasons, you know. But yeah, I just, you know, I thought he was great. He was he was one of my favourite people to interview. It's nice that you get this special connection with people. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it certainly is. You know, there have been plenty who are sort of, you know, badly behaved and inappropriate and whatever. But then there were those I absolutely loved and I just feel really fortunate that I sort of, you know, got an insight into their lives and stuff that other people don't know. And that was one of the things that I'm most proud of. Every time anybody said to me, oh, my God, no one has ever asked me that before. And it's like, yes, nailed it. Nailed it. Because they get interviewed all the time. And it must be the same questions over and over and over. Even when I'm interviewed, it's the same questions and the same answers. And it's like, you know, it's, it's a bit sort of rote. So when somebody he's massively famous, he's been asked every question in the book. But because I dig and dig and dig on these people, it's like, to hear those words, no one has ever asked me that. Is the greatest compliment a journalist can ever hear? Yes, exactly. You've asked me a few questions, questions today that I would have dug much harder than that. Chris Thrall, so much harder. Yes, you're, what do you call it? It's been in the tables on me, and which is great, which is great. When interviewing goes wrong. I'm going to have to like go in and say, I've got to put Izzy to bed. Go for it. It's really late here. It's like quarter to 11. Thank you for staying up so late. Oh my God, no, I just got to like get into bed because he's like, he's still 11. Um, but okay, so let's work out how we do a sort of like nice wrap or however you do it. It's really simple. I just thank you ever so much for coming on the Bought the T-shirt podcast, but I also thank you for coming and chatting to me after all these years. I'm glad that you're, what can I say, that you're not in this dark place that you, that you mentioned, and I wouldn't expect anything less from, from somebody like that. I'm so glad you're not in that dark place that, you know, a lot of us left you in. Yes. And I've said about that. Read my book folks. Exactly. And to our friends at home, massive love to you all. Thank you all for watching the Bought the T-shirt podcast. If you could like and subscribe, that's going to help us and see you next time.