 Good morning. Good afternoon. Good morning. Howdy, howdy. How are you guys? Good. Good. Coming trying to ramp back up from a vacation holiday week here. Oh, yeah. It's surprisingly hard considering how nothing I did. It was like low as like my like a usual holiday week is like, you know, like from a stress and activity and all that kind of stuff. And like this week is like, you know, like one little day, but somehow getting, getting like just the engine back up is nice. Different challenges this year. Maybe so. Maybe it's a, I mean too much turkey. A tryptophan. It does have its effect. Yeah. Maybe I've been in cryptophan for eight months. That's what it feels like. Hey, Pete. Hey, Pete. How are you, Charles? What's going on? I'm, I'm actually sitting in a similar mode over here. Not, not so much in general, but like I'm actually on a similar schedule to some of you. I've been a late night person kind of forever, but I'm actually just kind of getting my engine going for the day. And it's four in the afternoon over here. But we have a key collab sessions Mondays and it went, it went late. It actually went six hours last night in the end. And so yeah, I'm just looking forward to seeing what's going on over here in the, in the jam session. And I was, I mean, there's a lot of threads kind of spread around the OGM sphere. And I was, I didn't quite finish a response to our group one from the workshop. Actually, I was thinking again, reminded again by one of our group members, team members, that we still have some follow up to do. And so I don't know, I guess I'll wait till we officially start here, but I probably have some more thoughts along that theme of the workshop and follow up in the teams, groups and whatnot. Now I'll probably just start to babble a bit because Pete and I have been talking a lot about a few things, including the OGM forum and the CSC matter most and bridging and scanning and reporting and things like that. I have also been in the conversation about values, which is another kind of side channel at this point. I mean, there's, there's a bunch that I'm, I'm feeling and holding now with regard to OGM. Yeah, maybe that's enough for me for the moment. And I will continue to orient my windows here. I know that, hey, Judy. Good morning. Judy was, and I, Judy, I apologize that I went just so dark for two weeks, but it was a necessary unplugging. But I know Judy's been doing, you know, you and Trayv and pulling the thread along from our breakout as well. And, and, you know, looking to probably connect and share and get feedback on it as well. So I think people are in similar places. Charles, I think you probably articulated, even though it's unique for each of us where we are a similar sentiment and sort of feeling as we come into this call. And I know that, you know, I know the, the intent of this call is to start to, I don't want to say weave together, but somebody find harmony and all this stuff, right? And, and, and a path forward. And Jerry, same time. Hey, I was in the wrong room all together. Jerry, I like your zoom filter of your goatee. Yeah, exactly. It's good. No, it's very, it's very life-like. Authentic, yes. Even little, even little gray and grizzly. I was hoping that, I'd hoped, I was hoping that there was a little bit more trimmed off of that, you know, that's just down to a soul patch right now. It's like the last fight. It's, it's heading that way. Yeah. It's heading that way, but I kind of like the broader thing. I don't know. Yeah, no, I mean, it looks, it looks good on you. I'm not saying a soul patch would look good on you, but, you know, from the political trends. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, now we're both drinking coffee. Yeah. I feel like we're in an episode of between two ferns or something. We should coordinate where everybody takes a sip of coffee at the same moment in a call. Oh, hey, Charles, how are you? Good. Good morning. Judy. There you go. Anybody missing a cup of something? Judy, you couldn't possibly finish that. I'll take some, please. Oh, yes. It's my double. It's my normal. That'd be great if you had like a little spigot right in front of your computer where you could just put your cup under and somebody else can pay for it to fill up with the, with the beverage. I totally agree. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I, I so like sipping on things. I also have a cup of tea as an alternative. If I had a coffee maker in my office, I would die of a heart attack. I already drink way too much coffee as it is. I can't even imagine. Well, I've been trying to break myself with the habit in my other location in the kitchen. Where I'm frequently working at the table. Right beside me with a half turn away. When I was working in the kitchen, I was working with hot and cold. And I discovered I was really using it a lot more often than I needed to. And I should just get up and walk across the room and heat the water and the tea. It was just. Didn't need to be quite that lazy. Well, I could comment that, you know, our group too, as Hamilton mentioned, is in pretty much the same place. Still trying to pull together. I think we're going to have a little bit of a break out session. From our breakout group session. But I think we're, we're making some progress on that. We just need to kind of convert. A couple page document of the. Sort of the stream flow that was scribed. Along with the derivative, the plan that we had for a sort of. An actual reality experiment. And I think that's what we're going to be doing. And I think that's what people might consider if we want to try to do. Sort of simple projects or attempts to do things as a group to sort of frame how we might do that and judge success and stuff like that. Yeah. Judy, I wonder if. And I think. Was it Pete that you shared it. And what, and one of the channels or maybe somebody else did that, but you said this is what a quest presentation could look like. And those sorts of things. I'm just wondering like if. You know, I've been. Rolling some things around my mind, but if we don't try to. Just write a couple of short quest proposals. And see what a quest proposal looks like. And I, I also liked, you know, I've been. I've been a little bit of a advocate for quest being something which is OGM acting on the outside world. Right. And I think people have been pushing back to say, no, a quest can be anything that is a, you know, has a beginning, middle and end to it. And it could be a meta quest or a meta meta quest. Right. Or a meta meta meta quest. Right. And maybe the fourth layer quest is OGM itself. And that, you know, and so you have an L zero quest, which is about OGM and L one quest, which is about, which is about the system of OGM, right? You know, a level two quest, which is about, you know, a subsystem of OGM and a level three quest, which is about OGM exercise so that we just have some taxonomy. And then everything could be a quest. But if we start saying, let's write level three quests, which are small and are trying to change something in the world. And then, and then feed it upstream. Maybe that starts to get us into just an organizing structure of emergence and we, where we can connect these things. Right. Cause I think that's the, that's part of the piece is how did all of the quests work together to create out a holistic change agenda, if you will, ultimately. Right. From what I understand, and I'm not involved in all of them, but there's several quests underway that were begun over the last six months within OGM that were quests to free Jerry's brain or, you know, quests around the Kiko lab systems approach to things in terms of flow. So I think that we do have several quests going that are under the umbrella, directly under the umbrella of the executional dimensions of OGM. And that's, that's a good place to start because we'll learn ourselves, but there are a few that seem to have things that are starting to reach out, whether they're grant proposals or other things. That fall within the scope also. Go ahead, Charles. I am. I've been. I don't know the word thrashing around comes to mind a little bit. It might be extreme internally in terms of. How to help move forward and how to respond to certain. Threads and, and. In, in, in where I'm feeling drawn to the most does have a lot to do with my conversations with Pete and collective sense comments and the communication channels and again, this sort of bridging getting a grip of an overview, and then grabbing the reins between the forum and now this matter most, which I see a lot of hope and potential in. But I would. I want to try to measure how I come, come across here, but I'm feeling critical. And wanting in regard to the follow up communications and leadership in regard to the workshop. I think that actually means I'm pointing the finger, which is. Not comfortable, but I feel it's necessary at least to shine a light on the lack of continuity and follow up and communication. In particular in the general in regard to, you know, the convening of the workshop, the running and the harvesting. And it's just not really been there, frankly, and. So I would hope that we can. Together get it there. Charles, I'll take, I'll, I'll take that, you know, that critique, I think, you know, the reality is in my world, the, the demands on time are exceptional. And, but I also recognize that that's not an excuse for starting something and not finishing it. Right. And, and I think that. I agree. And I also recognize the conversation that's going on right now about. Leadership, the desire for it, but also in some ways, the desire for, you know, Jerry's been. At least in my mind, you've, you've been pretty clear on, let's have this be an emergent system. And how do we create an emergent system. And I also recognize the limitations of that when we're looking for the stewardship of something all the way through. And so, so that's, that's the tension, which is, you know, by declaring a workshop. I should have and, and I take on the ownership of being much more. Active in the beginning and end. And that was something that was not planned for nor, you know, at, you know, capacity allocated for. So I take that. And so I apologize and I appreciate you shining light on it. Can I just quickly add, sorry, Jerry. I think it's actually quite simple. This was finishing a bit of a thought, which is, which is simply about communications and channels and just coming to the basic agreement of where are we going to talk about this. And being able to have that. So it's just be, it's a great opportunity to have people know and at least give the possibility for people to interact and engage around it. So a couple of things, wow, I didn't sleep all that well last night. So one of the notes I made to myself in the middle of the night was on my to-do list to go look at the documents that you, Charles and Joe very diligently worked on in in the mirror board to work, which I have not dived back into at all. It just overwhelms me when I think about it, so I've been avoiding it. Yesterday we moved my mom back to her original living facility into hospice mode, so at some point in the next week or so she's probably going to die. So that's been a bit hard. And I really want to be here and actually doing OGM-y things is a fabulous distraction, so I should collect my thoughts and jump back in. I'm a little overwhelmed by how many channels we have, and I just realized typing into the chat here, I was merrily looking at the links Pete put in from Twitter, and I'm like, oh wait, shouldn't we be on Mattermost instead of this chat? And then I was like, oh shit, I haven't looked at the Mattermost for a day or two, and I need to catch up there with all the other things I need to catch up on. So I was a little like, whoa, kind of overwhelmed at that point. Should I just make a channel, Pete? I can do that. And try to invite me again, I still can't get it. You still haven't checked into the Mattermost, yeah. Because I think it's getting filtered up by our junk mail box and I can't find, like when I say confirm my email, it just doesn't confirm it. So let's troubleshoot that for you so Matt, so you can be on Mattermost, because Mattermost is just like Slack at least, only open source, and quite elegant and lovely. It's good. I think there's a calls channel already. No, but well the calls channel, which is for the open calls on Thursdays, do we want to make a steering channel? I advocate to have the steering channel on the open call channel be the same, because we've started to open the steering call. I don't agree. I think this is the get shit done group. I think the calls channel is a good place for get shit done. I don't care too much. I note that we already have three OGM-ish admin channels. One of them is calls, which I've been thinking also for this call. We also have the OGM values private channel. And then we have the OGM for moderation team, which I think probably is also private, which is also private. So a brief thought, which comes back to the conversation we're having right now, which is the next thing I wanted to put in the room, which comes out of the values conversation, the values call we had, which is that we may want to have sort of at the beginning of every call, either in the invite and or at the start of the call, kind of a call intro screen or setup. And it could be visual. I would love it to be sort of a picture that basically says, hey, this call is popcorn style. And here's the owner of the call. Here's who's going to facilitate. And here's sort of expectations. Here are links to the media that we have, whatever else. And then some calls are absolutely getting things done call. And here's the agenda or a link to the agenda. And this is our objective for the call, et cetera, so that we can start to differentiate between the Thursday check-in, which is meant to be a bit about turning the soil and seeing who's here and what we're working on very intentionally and other calls that are meant for actually aiming toward a target. And our values conversation was super interesting and useful and was not a GTD call, did not end up being that. So one of the things, as I stepped into this call, is I was thinking, oh, now that we've opened this up, and it's more people than just four of us, who owns this call and who's supposed to facilitate right now? Because I didn't actually know. Sorry, Pete, go ahead. I love it, Jerry. And I want to add into that a little bit of participation and negotiation. So as a leader of a call, I would say, here's what I think this call is. Here's whether or not it's recorded. Here's what we're going to do with the recording. Here's the style of a call. Is that okay with everybody? And we either get all yeas or we get, yeah, and then whatever. I think that's a good approach. And here's what we're going to put the chat and so on. I think that really speaks to me what you just said, Pete. I think the more that we can just have little pockets of ownership, the better. Where people just own something and they're responsible for it. Once they step up and say, I want to do this, then we can say, why isn't this done? Or is there someone to go to? I mean, Lauren, I agree with that. And I'm going back to reflecting on kind of what Charles illuminated there. That was a deficiency of not fully having ownership, right? Of completing something in its fullness. And what does it mean to complete that stuff? And I think part of it is us as a leadership team coming to grasp with capacity and capability and energy into the system, right? And those sorts of things. So I think we're going to have to wrestle with that, how we disagree. And is it just the amount of time you show up that gives you more sort of more voice in the group? Or is it because of something else? So I think it's going to be interesting. Yeah. And then can I just add a point about like, how much of it is our responsibility to delegate ownership versus have people assume it on their own? And I only say that because, and I don't want to get too necessarily defensive here because Charles, I do feel some of the same poll as you. But I felt like I personally sent four or five pretty direct emails about what to do and where to put a lot of the artifacts from the group work that we did, but I have not received a single response on them. And again, I'm not calling out anybody specifically in this room for that. I'm just saying like, you know, I expected there to be maybe a little bit more communication there. Quick question. Sorry. Sorry. Excuse me. The email, it was sort of not really necessarily what we all agreed. I don't know. We didn't all agree on email or where's the forum? Is there a forum channel? Actually, I was trying to figure out, and I haven't scanned through everywhere. Sorry to interrupt, Judy, but you know, is there a forum area for exactly those communications? There wasn't. And so, we had a meeting that, and I think what's emerging out of this, and if we can kind of pull back is I think the very first step before we do anything else is figuring out this, how to communicate. Right. That's a very simple solution. Just make a channel through workshop stuff. But see, I think this is where I'm wondering, and I'd love to have, you know, Pete come into this, I've seen more slacks and more jams and more jives and more matter most and all this kind of stuff go the route of channel proliferation and become nonsense. And I think what Pete's trying to suggest, at least as I understand it, is to limit the number of those things and to be intentional about it. But I, you know, again, Pete, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think, you know, that's where, I mean, all I've seen right now that we've done is I've got 389 unread OGM emails that are in a box. I've got random discourse things that are sometimes respond to my posts and sometimes don't. I have, you know, so there's like, it's been proliferated to the point where we're overwhelmed by our own information stream, and getting frustrated. And I think, I think solving this as seems to me to be a kind of a kind of a core kind of a core, you know, quest at the meta meta level is, how are we, how are we organizing our communication with each other? And how are we communicating that to other people so that so we're all doing it the same way, right? Judy, then me, I just wanted to respond to Hank's comment, because I thought your question was clear. And after receiving nothing from other TV, I called, you know, sent notes to people and said, let's get together and try to pull our things together, because we didn't do a great job at the event. And we've had one lengthy discussion about that. And we're, it's now sitting at the draft, something that we can kind of modify review. It's just taking us longer, because there was so much content. And I feel bad about that in terms of the output, but I suspect that for some of the other groups, that was also the case. And, and I think we're all individually, collectively, trying to be sure that we give the best quality input, because we care deeply about how this is synthesized. And that makes us a little perfectionistic, which we know is, perfect is the opposite of getting some things done if you try to get it to perfect. So that's, that's one topic. The second thing is, I think that the communication channels and having a limited number is really important, because it is proliferating. And I think having structure to the gatherings, sort of an understanding, sort of a mutual buy-in before you even start, this is our purpose today, this is what we're going to try to accomplish, or this is what we're going to discuss, but not try to bring the resolution would de-stress a lot of it. A couple of things. Maybe we can call this Platform Creek, but we're certainly suffering from it. And ironically, I was pitching us as picking up and solving that problem for Jordan Sukut, the guy who's doing the steward ownership stuff, who I want to bring into the Tuesday call, maybe next Tuesday, if he's available to present the steward ownership ideas to up to this group, because I think that's a really important request to build up a frame up a structure for OGM that would work. And then, and then also just reflecting on the work products from the workshop. I think that there, I think, I think it's, there's a long distance between what we ended up with team-wise separately, and what we feel would be a finished product that, and I think that gap is daunting to all of us. I think that, I think that in different ways, the group see that they were contributing directly toward a solution. But there, but I sense that there's still like a like a big leap to get to a series of document statements, whatever else it might be, processes that feel like the kind of the kind of solutions we were looking for from the workshop. And that's just an open comment. It's like, we did an ambitious thing in a very compressed time that might have taken, you know, if this were a corporate client, you probably would have designed it for a week or three days or something like that. Exactly. We did it super accelerated with a mix of tools. A few people poured a whole bunch of hard and energy into the work products, which I appreciate and which overwhelmed me in a sense, because I was, I found it hard then to step in and catch up and really get acquainted with the products and so forth. And I, and one thing I don't do enough is I didn't say, damn it, I need a Zoom call with the people who did all this work to just catch up and have that conversation that would have gotten me there faster. But I didn't, I didn't think to do that sort of early enough. So, so all of that Hamilton. I just think we should just, you know, also be just recognize how big our ambition is with this thing and how hard this is going to be. And there's some principles that underlie this around openness and emergence that are messy, right? And like, we tried to, we planned that workshop for six months, not planning it, but like, how do we do it? What do we do? What's the right amount of time? What's the right question? And it was, and finally, we just, you know, and Matt and Jerry and Hank drove a lot of this, just had to take a guess and we made it work. So, and I know there's no attack on it, but I think this is progress where just the fact that we're having this call with us nine and having this conversation, don't let's just not lose sight that this is progress, right? For this hugely ambitious undertaking, right? With just hugely intelligent, I'm over, I'm daunted just every call by the depth of experience and knowledge on this call. And if each of us were the the czars where we could orchestrate it and everybody else would just do what we said and it would be brilliant, right? It would be completely different, but that's not what we want here. And so it's just hard, it's messy, but this is progress. Lauren, George, do you want to throw anything? Yeah, I just, I had a suggestion that maybe each thing that kind of proliferates each chat channel, maybe a chat becomes a mini quest and someone takes ownership of that chat channel and out of it comes some sort of document or something that's more official. So maybe people feel like it's, you know, I don't know how other people are feeling, but I cannot handle more chit chat. It's like too much chit chat everywhere. And I want to feel like I'm making tangible progress on things. I don't, I don't want to chat, like I want to produce tangible items. So maybe there could be a process. Maybe these could be like mini quests instead of like large quests that feel like you're crossing the Pacific Ocean, maybe just like these mini quests that can add up into something. And I was actually thinking that as we shape up quests or mini quests or whatever size quests thing are, a quest might have its preferences of channels and might go then organize itself. And if it declares and gives us, if we have a table of contents that says, hey, here's, here's the quest on food and soil and regenerative everything. And here's, here's where their conversation is located. Then I don't care if they're on telegram and signal and smoke, you know, semaphore, that's, that's fine with me. But, but for us, we need to sort of narrow it down and figure out where we're talking. Charles, just back to your comment to Hank on, on the notices. For me, the OGM Google group list is still the default. And if Hank had posted an exhortation in discourse only, I probably would have missed it because I'm not well grooved into making sure I'm caught up on discourse. So, so I would have had trouble had it been only in discourse seriously. I understand. Yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to quickly mention, and I'm, I'm still unable to easily deal with the chat and zoom on my phone, but I have made a mirror board, which is really just the beginning baby steps of a kind of what I've come to call a sandbox dashboard, which we have done for Kiko Ab with the hardest jam. And now I just started with a handful of frames so far, getting an overview on OGM. And I put that in the matter most, I mean, I, we can get the link over now to the chat here, but it's, it's in the town square channel, I just put it there, for example, on matter most. So just AI and inviting everyone to, to check it out and get, get in on it if you want. And it's possible, I don't know, but it's possible that a landscape, an image that encapsulates the number of quests we have, the territory we're trying to cover, and all that might be very well adapted to Miro. And because Miro is pretty programmable, and we have some black belt Miro coders like Max in the group, we might be able to connect Miro to some spreadsheets and test some other goodies, where the actual data for whatever it is we're sucking into Miro is kept and curated. And that I can see that being a thing I would check to figure out who's where and what's up. It might be a different tool, but that's smelling like it could work. Go ahead. Jerry, I want to just again, honor the fact that Pete put a lot of time and thought into a communication, beginning to think about this problem, like ours more than this call. And we have yet to have him actually tell us what he's come up with. And, and we've been opining around the edges versus letting the person who kind of did a quest share share his thoughts before we started to critique it. So I don't know, Pete, can we give you the floor and just say help? I mean, I'm not even in matter most like just help us understand what is this architecture. And then we can we can help you refine it. Thanks, Matt. There's so I did I did spend a lot of time thinking about the way OGM communicates and and how best to help it communicate. So, so thanks for kind of acknowledging that. And as an aside, I'm going to be a little bit of a clamped, I think. Sorry. As an aside is interesting hearing Scott yesterday in a Kiko lab call. One of the things I love, by the way, is the fact that we some of us at least are participating in this kind of meshed federation of organizations. And so it was yesterday, Kiko lab hosted me talking about CSC and Scott ended up talking about how how he hated the OGM infrastructure. I'm over dramatizing a little bit because I felt a little called out. Scott made a very good point that, you know, he goes home and he can do email with anybody in the world. And he goes home and he can do a phone call, literally a phone call with anybody in the world, right? They don't need special technology. They don't need, you know, they don't need six different things, you know, etc, etc. I thought that was it was interesting to hear. And so it was after that call that I reflected a lot on that. The thing that Scott didn't hear or didn't say, the thing that Scott didn't say was I remember back in 1980 small number when it wasn't a given that you could send an email to anybody. So back then you couldn't just give somebody an email address and get them to hit it. You were either on CompuServe or you were on one of a bunch of smaller things. Maybe there was a gateway from CompuServe to UUCP. Maybe there wasn't. Maybe to talk to somebody on UUCP, you had to figure out how to get onto UUCP or vice versa with CompuServe and AOL and all that kind of stuff. So right now we're kind of in mode where we have we have different channels and it kind of sucks. Same thing with phone calls. It was so poignant to me. Jerry and I have been in a couple, been in one tribe, a telco tribe talking about the nuts and bolts of literally telephone systems and switching, you know, switching systems and things like that. And the fact that you can pick up a phone and dial a number, all the like sermon drawing of how that happened and you know how it happened the way it did and how many people, how many tears were shed about things that were lost in the process of coming to you know standards and things like that. What the area code system should look like. Who should have plus one as a country code. The fact that there are multiple phone systems that have to talk to each other and somebody had to like you know have knock down drag out fights about I think it should be this protocol or that protocol. Again you know a simple thing like a phone number. It seems simple to Scott and I appreciate that Scott can go home and he can send an email and it just works and he can make a phone call and it just works. It's like you know an unimaginably deep technological feat that that happened and and the loss of a huge amount of potential with like pots, plain old telephone service. So anyway, we are blessed to be in the phase of discovery and innovation around where we do federated chat systems like this federated communication systems. So probably I should make a picture but if I made a picture of what I think of for the OGM communications there's the mailing list which is for mostly for announcements and things of real-time importance. So to Jerry's point if you post something in OGM forum not everybody's going to see it today. If you post something on the mailing list everyone's going to see it today or whatever you know serves as their today. So OGM mailing list is kind of for announcements and real-time things and much less so for conversations because conversations there get hinky really fast. Next maybe I would put the matter most which I call CSC Agora, common sense collective Agora. There's a lot of detail why Agora is stuck in the name there and why I try to say CSC Agora instead of matter most and you know there's a bunch of little detail. But anyway there's so there's the mailing list then CSC Agora the matter most system. It's for I need to ping Charles about you know hey when are we going to meet up later today or Jerry needs to ping me about dude I can't find the zoom link what is it or for keeping you know keeping kind of in the moment things and a little bit longer conversations it's also superb slack and matter most are superb for being the replacement for the chat system in zoom. There's a hard edged there's a hard edged fact that it's not stuck on zoom it's you know a separate window but as soon as you're in matter most CSC Agora as soon as you have a critical mass of people I guess so far on zoom calls it's been me and Charles which is thank you Charles for being there it was on the last one and thank you Judith I appreciate that thank you um once you're there it's like oh my god this is so much easier yeah and so I know it's a big push to get to that place but really once you get there it's like I don't know why we're using zoom chat um zoom so the plus and minus and this is another post that I guess I get to write up at some point or somebody can co-write with me zoom chat it does that thing where it's not there before the call it's not there after the call maybe you don't even have it because you didn't save it as you exited the call it does that thing where you can't go back and delete a post or edit a post you know it's like shit I fucked that one up and I can't believe it um uh it does that thing sorry it is handy to be able to save it as a single file I will give it that yeah um so I've kind of made a promise to Charles to be able to extract um a collection of matter most messages in a channel to a text file I found code that does most of that and all I need to do is tweak it up a little bit so on behalf of everyone not just me right well it's a promise to you though that that's why I will fulfill it instead of a promise to everyone which means like yeah maybe I'll get around to it um I could keep digging on on zoom chat but actually the other one is when you ping somebody privately and then it goes in your chat transcripts you have to make sure to pull it out if you send that to anybody else so just to mention sorry on that line Judy um I did edit out your private ones from the one you sent over thank you it wasn't anything in there but yeah I did that and then you keep chatting to the same person instead of the channel or and then you chat to the channel instead of a private person Matt question for clarification so the mailing list you said it's real-time things and announcements um but csc agura it's when you need to ping somebody or it's sort of in the moment communication when you're sort of it's a live it's a live channel versus a mailing list as a is an asynchronous channel right um asynchronous and not everyone and maybe maybe they need to be switched in the hierarchy or something like that I don't know it probably does need to be switched but a mailing list is something where everybody's going to see it within their day right the next time they open their mail which they may not because there's so many sorry to sorry to keep jumping in not everyone checks email yeah and not everybody checks chat right so I think this is where but I like what you're doing you're starting to put some rules around it so csc agura is I need to ping somebody so that's the that's sort of like it's sort of like text messaging right um but it's a universal version of text messaging it doesn't come to your phone it goes through your chat channel and it's an in-the-moment communication and all chat all all chat communications right these are all chat communications go through agora mailing lists are for announcements and what else uh mostly announcements I would yeah so announcements come in in two styles for me one of them is um hey everybody the workshop is coming up and I guess announcements the other one is there's this really cool event I think you all should attend and you know it's here and I want to make sure you see this because it's time sensitive so I guess I guess there's announcements that aren't super time sensitive they're modal like we need to do this or change this and then there's announcements that are actually time sensitive or can we say time bound right because wouldn't you if it was time sensitive wouldn't you just use csc agora and and ping somebody or are you saying it's a good question and something something we should dig into a little bit more um and maybe not on this call okay although I'd be happy to but I'm just trying to start to document the relate like document the relationship of these things because I think once we know these things then we can give people here's the communication map right um and then we and and then we have to make sure everybody is in the right channels um and and you know technically able to get in and feel comfortable using it and all that stuff yep so what's the third is discourse um let's expand a little bit more on on matter most csc agora okay um so it's for in the moment in chat um it's also for chatty conversations um and sometimes they get asynchronous um and that's okay it's it's also a place where there's a little bit of sociality uh to csc matter uh to the matter most um we already have a coffee shop and an off-topics channel um so um it's also it's also a place where we're by design kind of going to be bumping into other people from other organizations like kiko lab um I feel like I should explain sociality and coffee shop more or no I'm I'm I always think I'm the slow one on this stuff and I actually know what you mean well unless you know it unless you've seen it it doesn't make any sense in a way kind of right so coffee shop is also kind of water cooler talk you know so there's a there's a way of of being I uh the matter most is is semi synchronous so you can you can kind of sometimes you post there and they're not going to answer for six hours or 24 hours or 48 hours but sometimes you post there and they answer within five or ten minutes and then if you answer back within five or ten minutes you've started ramping up the synchronicity thing and so Stephen Kreuzer and I um uh you know he'll post a question a tech question or something like that right now we're talking about um about the accuracy of GPS accuracy in phones and web browsers and you know so he posted a thing and I didn't get around to answering it for two days and then I answered it and then he answered within half a day and then you know I'm going to answer within a quarter day and we're starting a a faster conversation and then it can slow back down again so chat is really good at that um it's it's even better than text messages it's about like WhatsApp or maybe iMessage for iPhone folks I'm not an iPhone person um so um so then the next thing we have is OGM forum OGM forum is a little bit more structured feeling than than the matter most and it's a lot better at memory so we've got conversations going on sorry I'm going to interrupt myself and go back to something I think of these these channels end up being a lot of it is around synchronicity another another part of it is around reachability and who's where right so if I want to make an announcement to say hey guys there's this amazing regenerative agriculture thing you've got to see it the next 24 hours mailing list yeah um and once we get negotiated well enough it would actually be a mailing list and maybe the regenerative agriculture channel on the matter most um if it was super important like everybody wanted to see it then it would be actually in the town square in matter most and you can kind of ramp up the the urgency with which you ping people and it's really rude to to do it out of band but you can actually say hey everybody in the channel I need you to see this message as opposed to you you can actually push a message at them instead of letting them pull it so that's something where you know um hey everybody we had to change the call yesterday it's our tomorrow it's going to be at two o'clock instead of one o'clock you know that would be something you would actually push to people um so matter most has that ability when you say you can say at channel or at all it it blasts everybody and it's actually really rude and then people people who aren't um uh inculcated will do it and and upset everybody but anyway so I apologize for a little bit of confusion there but an announcement could actually go in both places and that would be a reasonable thing and the reason you would put it in both places is because we'd have 80 percent of the people in in matter most and 80 percent of the people see their email uh you know within 12 hours so you want to make sure if you want us 100 100 percent you you would actually hit both of them and that probably wouldn't annoy people too much as you complete with that no go ahead I'm still going down the synchronicity thing kind of um chat and email have a fairly tight synchronicity and the conversations that you have there are relatively short in matter most you have conversations that run seconds to minutes to hours and maybe a few days kind of email is kind of the same it's a little bit slower maybe I guess the forum is really good at conversations that last months so I think I'm in conversations with George that have been over months in in the forum not because we've been doing a good job at I'm using that as an example of time not that we've been doing a good job of carrying on a conversation there and George and I but but we have a number of conversations on the forum that are months long and they're not worse for it actually um the one that we haven't built yet or added yet or negotiated that God Pete do we need another channel um is a wiki um uh an organ a collective intelligence a collectively intelligent organization needs a memory um and the forum is not it's it's a place that has memory but they're kind of dusty and not organized and a wiki is a great place to have um since make um since made um memories uh of distilled you know wisdom so um so at some point we'll have a csc wiki too which ogm is welcome to use and I hope it uses I'd love to give George the floor and then I'd like to jump in a bit George has been chewing on this for a whole couple years uh you're still muted though did you finish all of your channels Pete pretty much yeah I made a channel for the steering group here by the way it's in there now oh okay great thank you is it a private channel or where no it's a public channel in is it okay that it's public I think it well these calls are open right so that's what I thought I just it's okay with me that it's open I think we could if if and when needed we have the the values channel that's private sorry I don't want to interrupt please George go ahead yeah George go ahead it's very interesting to listen to not only to this conversation but uh all the conversation that's are happening through the different channels because no matter what is or individual perception of what are the different tools and channels are good for or better for regardless the users are using them for whatever they want them total like there are indeed duplication of subjects very substantive essential conversations are happening in email that are not supposed to be very substantive conversations are happening on the discourse on on matter most and largely uncoordinated because we are not an organization we are a network so maybe it's not supposed to be coordinated maybe just whatever is emerging is good well when Pete mentioned the telephone that having a phone number it's what a fake technical achievement and I think that before it could become a technical achievement it was an achievement of coordination seems the very beginning of humankind as we became humans and started having coordinated action to achieve to accomplish anything um up to 2020 basically there has been two kinds of coordination and I mentioned this because at some point Hank uh said something if I heard well about uh the leadership the delegation of leadership and so that was one kind of coordination the top down that either the boss told you the king or whoever was the boss the strongest guy in the tribe told you that this is what you are going to do or in more modern mba versions of the same that I'm going to delegate power and now you should be filled and power because I delegated the power so uh in the last decade or so a new kind of coordination is uh emerging the bottom up coordination in the various systems of uh self-management self-organization and lots of the companies that I consulted to uh trying to go self-management one of the things that they made as a mistake uh thinking that self-management means uh no rules everybody does whatever they want to obviously that's not a very effective method of of coordination so I feel that OGM is uh somewhere in between because they clearly don't want to uh apply they are horrified by the idea of anything top done and uh we have not developed our self-management practices and so seemingly technical challenges technical disorganization it really comes from that in betweenness that we don't have effective self-management guidelines or any kind of uh using practices that uh weren't replicating in the vast experience of next stage organization and we can say that okay but we are not an organization we are more like a network that is more conducive to whatever happens uh but then whatever happens that can also include that but as we are organized today absolutely nothing would prevent any uh member of OGM even if uh even if we have such a concept that what is a member of OGM but let's say that nothing would prevent uh any of us who are showing up uh on on the calls or on discourse nothing prevent uh them from um opening a new uh using a new communication platform and uh because this is what uh I am convinced that this is the best tool this is the best and everybody should come here of course I won't tell people that you should come here I just set up a sandbox and then invite people and if you fall in love with it then uh let's try it out that too and in a sense it's good because it means that um we are getting familiar with more possibilities different affordances of different systems and if our purpose was technological scouting discovering the best uh collaboration tools then uh this borderlessness would be just perfect but uh what is happening when we are creating a new platform uh we are not only adding complexity to each uh member that I have some moral issues with I always uh talk to corporate management that you guys if you introduce a new technologies it is a moral obligation to do whatever you can to reduce the complexity coming with the new that people have to learn a new interface and uh so reducing the complexity both mean that I simply do not open a new place without having very clear rules of engagement uh because if not what is happening it's not that it's not only that we're increasing the complexity for everybody and one of the implications of that is some people are tuning out because tuning out because they cannot put up they cannot follow all the conversation and don't know the collective implications of that is that we are fragmenting the collective mind we are fragmenting the collective discourse and uh so um I don't have a I don't have a solution uh I clearly have a preference or priority I would say which is not the shiniest uh tools to use but first of all what it takes to build the community what it takes to build the community is uh understanding also that uh there is a progression from a borderless wide network with no clear purpose and boundaries from there to uh some uh purpose eventually emerging some boundaries are eventually emerging like becoming a living system living systems do have boundaries and uh when that happens then we can start also thinking about self-management because um a rainforest a tree uh is any living system is our body is explicitly managing the resources it needs and allocating those resources how do others the body do it that uh our organs uh have functions and they don't mix uh the functions of one organ with the with the other so in a self-managing organization uh there are uh roles people are stepping into energizing certain roles and um so that's where I come back what I said earlier about the two kinds of coordination top down and in the bottom up so the bottom of coordination that's uh that happens by accountabilities the accountability is the opposite from the corporate job description that you have a responsibility and then you get your salary uh if I am in the role of let's say a community knowledge ecologist that role just like any other roles have a purpose a well defined purpose and that purpose one part of the purpose is to uh express through the distinctive contribution of my role express my support to the purpose of the community as a whole that of course implies that the community as a whole has a purpose and um so then uh my accountability nobody tells me that uh this is what I should do but what I am telling you my teammates my fellow uh OGMers is that I offer to be accountable I offer to be accountable so that you know so that you can know what is that you can you can count me on for and it's through this network of accountabilities that self-organization is happening and then of course we can actually accomplish something then accomplishing something is becoming uh not only a wish but something that we really want to go for Judy and then I'd like to jump in with a few thoughts I just wanted to comment that I think part of what we're dealing with is the similarity of different types of organizations and we're encompassing all of them because OGM can kind of be all of them in many different ways but we think about values I see values and responsibilities as sort of the overarching core thread that defines our community's personality and then go from that to different levels of what it is we're attempting to do and those will perhaps have different organizational approaches and different leadership or management or execution approaches and my sense of OGM right now is we have a lot of people in it who are very self-aware and able to be self-organized to commit to and execute things and don't need to be told to do things which means you don't need a traditional manager you may want a facilitator or a coordinator but I think when we start to get hooked up in the language of older leadership styles it's less effective for our community at least my vision of what our community would be which is a lot of self-actualized people and if anyone comes in who isn't they're going to learn from all of us by experiencing processes and ways of approaching things that they perhaps had not had the opportunity to do before I like what George said about the different approaches to leadership and particularly the differences between thought leadership in my mind versus task leadership because different dimensions occur if you're conceptualizing and developing frameworks then if you're attempting to accomplish a certain discrete act or group of acts in a certain amount of time and so to me it's kind of like how would we put together these different filters these layers or contemplations to be conscious of choosing the appropriate approach for what we are trying to do and that's a bit challenging particularly because I think what would make it easy is actually framing sort of the values and responsibilities but that's one of the hardest things to do because it's sort of soft it's easier to frame tasks and how you would structure organizations in a framework way than it is to frame values but I think we made a good start despite not finishing it last week in terms of hitting a lot of the key points and I would find it helpful for us to sort of frame a little bit around both the values and what the different types of leadership mean or the different types of rules because those are the things that will give us the flexibility to be the organic and growing organization that we want to be thank you let me throw a couple things in the conversation quickly because they're sort of stacked in my head and in my chat here first we're facing a classic typical question of individual preferences and capacities because some of us have more devices bigger screen devices whatever and then we're trying to meet in the middle and in the middle of this is what system will alert you what will you actually notice etc and so often when I try to communicate with somebody I'm like okay what did I communicate with them last in and what do they seem to prefer for like instant notifications I'm always doing that negotiation and the world was much simpler in that pastoral scene that Pete described at the beginning of our call remember when the phone system actually started working second thing is and I wrote this up a bit in the rec slab hiring hall that I described but I haven't really talked about much here but I see a lot of really deep good thinking disappear into discourse forums mailing lists other places that are sort of private and I like to urge people to post outside in meaning make this a medium post put this on your blog and then just put a link to it in our conversation we can chat about it in our in our media but I would love to see that the big beautiful sort of deeply held things be far more public than they end up being if we have really rich conversations inside so what that does is it adds complexity to the mix because now you know there's but but it's the web links outside to post is great and and I'm on several mailing lists right now that are having fantastic conversations is going to increase savage on one of them and every post of his I just want to see live outside in the world because he's such a clear thinker and he's solving sort of you know many many problems for us and then the last thing is that we haven't really talked about social media and we haven't really talked about ogm and the future ogm platform one of whose goals is to try to solve some of these problems I mean very clearly an open global mind requires us to conquer some of this and some groups like the game b people are on facebook they have a really big facebook group and the community is there and one of the one of the nice things about linkedin and facebook is that lots of humans know how to use them and they're on them and they're there's huge traffic and it gives you permeability to a huge audience you know if you start if you start getting a following on linkedin and I created an ogm group on linkedin which I've done nothing with which would be a really nice way for us to do some of our participation in public so we haven't actually folded any of the common platforms into our infrastructure instead we're using kind of a best of breed of private platforms that are lovely and and that connect in ways that Pete hasn't had a chance to describe yet but we're kind of off in our own field instead of having a conversation within the limitations of known platforms but in in front of much larger groups which I think is useful too but as we evolve with ogm is one of my fears is that we spend so much time trying to rationalize link and figure out how to connect up matter most to discourse to whatever that we lose the thread on the more interesting abstract conversations we're having about how do we create a shared memory how do I take a node that's really juicy and interesting memorialize it in my preferred way and remember how to come back into the conversation around that thing because there was a chat or there was a what's what's the the hot social network right now that's that's voice only I'm totally forgetting what the name is sandbox campfire no something else anyway there's like a network that everybody's which which is just recorded voice right okay great so how do we sort of synthesize all those things and I think Charles you were yeah I forgot what it was it's okay shared memory so where are we what do we want to talk about now I can I could add that I have I have actually thought a lot about these things you were just mentioning especially social media not especially but including social media I did put a little energy into linkedin just when you when you made it but you know there's nothing going on but I think it has huge potential Facebook as well I came to this conclusion like yesterday or the day before that a lot of us at OGM are on Facebook anyway and there are a lot of these groups anyway and it's pretty easy it depends on what you know we want anyone wants to get out of it and then you know measure what you put in according to that I think I think eventually we want to be like ants and leave a trail a chemical trail from linkedin and Facebook forums back to whatever the thing is that we've developed that works better and is more interesting I think that's what we'll do so maybe it's okay right now that we're not in there having conversations but it would it would help sort of stimulate a lot of us oh good thanks Pete any any final thoughts so we should probably just wrap wrap this call around where we are yeah I have some quick quick reflection on on what you said about uh social using social media that uh yeah if we would start doing that right now they would just create uh more mess uh in terms of the developmental logic of OGM but I am very passionate about getting to the point where we do want to buy them and reach out so from my perspective the point is when we have what I would call sufficient coherence sufficient inner coherence that when we reach out to the public uh with the intention that we invite back people who are really interested in what we are doing that then we then they join us on discourse or whatever is the home base that we do have a home base that we polish and make it easy to navigate rich coherent reflection of our collective memory then when people from the social media I start showing up because we are curious that what what do these guys cook then the kitchen will be full well stacked and ready to welcome our guest so and uh I mentioned this uh role the community knowledge ecologist um by probably not totally by accident but uh that I named that as a role but this is the role that I am paying uh playing uh in the in the companies that I am working with uh but that's that's a significant investment in time so I I cannot uh offer to to do that I've been doing it professionally for a couple of decades um but uh if there were people with an interest to form an ogm knowledge ecology team then um I think that we could develop a framework uh for the development of our uh collective intelligence I think this is clearly a question about that ogm it needs to form up I mean an ologycology quest is the given for me so I think that that's in our future sorry George two things I have to change rooms uh so I'm going to go dark but I'm still listening uh second thing is George have we tried really hard to troubleshoot your audio is it your device or your connection because you are always very clippy and hard to understand and it's it's really difficult I have to focus three times harder than normal to hear you I'm not having the same problem cherry really I am I mean it's not as much of a challenge for me perhaps but I hear that exactly what you I'm hearing the digital artifacts through your through your connection all the time and your your video is very jaggy for me it tends to improve George when you when you remove your video so it could be unfortunately I think it's hard so it might be it might be the cpu whatever device you're using to connect might be and if you have a smartphone or something else you could use that because the you know whatever the more recent device you have probably has the better cpu and better camera on it um but sorry I just wanted to because I want to hear what you're saying better Pete than Charles then let's wrap the call um this is a tricky thing to say um because we're talking about proliferating tools and I have a lot of compassion and I feel a lot of responsibility for not making more tools and more channels um having said that and having said that um today I started creating an air table that's got kind of a list of the things that I think the ogm steering group should have on its on its radar um we we've got enough things that we're not keep we we don't we don't know what they are anymore with this group um so I don't care that it's our table but I think we probably start to and I don't care that it's our table I think our table is probably a good choice Miro would be an okay choice too but I think our table is actually better for reasons I could discuss anyway I started creating an air table I'm going to put a link in the no well actually I'll do it I'll do it here in zoom chat and then I'm also doing this over on the matter most the matter most um fyi so I wanted this group to know about it um I also have a link the medium link is to a similarly it's a generic tool or a generic template for a similar kind of tool where a supervisory group a management group is kind of wanting to know the top level um project statuses um so that it's a similar pattern um so fyi and of course I'm muted um okay Charles uh yeah I was trying to get my note together so I guess two things I'll try to be brief one is George I'm really resonating with this knowledge ecology uh working group or team idea I also just it occurred to me I think this would be more suited better suited for csc collective sense commons perhaps then then ogm it specifically I think for a variety of reasons I'm not sure that the ogm itself has the specific energy for that but it could be I'm open to whatever works um my other thing is is just to shift over to um an email thread that we're having Jerry and a few of us I guess it came out of this call split split into talking about values and leadership and stuff I'm I'm just curious uh about the metaphors that have been kind of flying around and then I did go back and read your entry for the workshop talking about um like the starter inoculation type of um uh metaphor and I wanted to just try to get a little more focus on on what's and then there was also the question of the chaos you know kind of as uh potentially as a default you know for each so sorry I'm saying a bunch of things here the other thoughts that just occurred to me the calls on Thursdays the main ogm calls are it seems to me the engine driver of ogm it's sort of it's sort of the heart and the root of of what goes on maybe now maybe that's not true anymore but that's kind of how you know that's sort of the the anchor of the consistent groove arguably um there's lots of other stuff but that's kind of the the main line maybe and um so in terms of the setting up of of that um peachy dish you know again there's so many metaphors I found jumbling up in the blender but um so that's kind of an open question you know what's what's the real intentional conscious approach to to initiating those calls to convening you know holding those spaces each week with consistency um and then the question about the popcorn you know and the cues and all that um in in light of or in contrast potentially to the sense-making aspect and the harvesting and so forth I think that's enough for me now at the end of this call but um I just wanted to place that kind of directly to you Jerry in particular but to anyone as well thanks Charles um my head is full of stuff that I need to go read and catch up on and address and and adjust uh so anyone have a closing thought for this call? Lauren it's probably bed time for you. He wore me out last night. Oh we went six hours. Oh my god seriously. Six hours. Yeah I just want to say I'm really feeling George and his um need for boundaries because I'm really feeling need for boundaries and some rules because I think that um you know from listening to Scott I think that boundaries and rules actually can um create explosion of creativity and yeah make people feel a little safer. Agreed. Can someone paraphrase a bit of what Scott was bringing into the conversation more than Pete started? I can. Please. Um so um Scott he and I I can actually just give you a link. I did a five-minute wrap of his presentation if you'd like. That's brilliant thank you. I'll do that. From yesterday? No uh from this thing. Oh I see. Got it. Yeah it's well worth listening to since I've been uh listening to Scott I have I I feel like my um system's thinking is much sharper actually. But I think Jerry you were also asking about what Pete was referring to at the conversation from yesterday. Yes and and yesterday I mean the simplest takeaway was literally that Scott drives towards simplicity in his own processing of everything. You know he starts from a bigger and he filters it and then he filters it again and that clarifying process not only clarifies but it makes it more absorbable or actionable or whatever else comes from that and that was one of my key takeaways. So in part he wanted to not over structure the many dimensions of OGM because he saw the Thursday meeting as the core of OGM that open exchange that triggers lots of thought leads us to go away and think about various threads that came out of that and perhaps then form other connections or conversations around those things. So that was kind of my takeaway. Go ahead Pete. I found it to be oversimplifying myself but but I was listening from another lens but go ahead Pete. It was so I feel bad um and Scott if you've watched this I'm sorry that we're discussing you behind your back it's not um we're trying to solve for this so it's not um we're not hiding from you and and saying saying things about you I think we're trying to bring you into the conversation for what it's worth. He was really frustrated that we have what he sees as a proliferation of multiple you know multiple channels you know the opposite of simplicity and is frustrating to him and causes him to pull back so you know he doesn't really want to participate in that. Um I wanted to say actually maybe I can say another thing if I can think of it real quick which is um so two things one of them I hear Matt's frustration and Jerry your frustration it's like geez we have way too many places to talk I think maybe NGD is a good exemplar maybe once once we it's it's not that many and it actually reduces your anxiety once you kind of get a little bit of practice you have to do put on the trading wheels and and practice a little bit and adjust some daily rhythms a tiny bit I think um it there is it's not actually that many um I know it seems like a lot from the outside once you're kind of inside and it makes sense it I think it's it's stress reducing not stress inducing um the the main thing I wanted to say though was a big part of the energy and I guess this counter balances with Scott's energy and I really appreciate his his observation that the Thursday calls are super generative and that's good enough for him you know this is all we need to be in fellowship with people for two hours on Thursday mornings means the world you know and it's the wonderful jewel that you know we could just take just live with that um I I think that makes sense and I come from a different place which I and I and I try to project this back into OGM because I hear it from OGM a lot of people in OGM say there's the world is in a lot of trouble and we need as much collective sense making and especially collective action focused collective maybe decentralized coordinated action but it needs we need action now um I had this call with Vincent so I am a person of age more or less Vincent is not yet a person of age she's he's a youngster um so he's like Pete I don't know about you but I've got to live on this planet for another you know 60 years or whatever um and it's not looking so good so I have a lot of energy Vincent says I have a lot of energy about fixing stuff as soon as possible and I have a little bit less than he does because I'm not going to be living here for 60 more years it's only going to be 30 or 40 um hopefully but that's still the energy I have it's like we need to get out of our own way we have a lot of potential here a lot of the people who have an interest in action and as a group if we can bias towards action with some you know what I think of as fairly simple communications tools processes um you know project planning project management which can which is going to be multifocal um uh and different in different places then the world is going to be a better place because we do it and I think that's what OGM wants and so I try to reflect that energy back into OGM let's get shit done um thank you Pete let me throw three things in real quick and then we can wrap the call um one is the sort of the idea of the pastoral days when there were fewer choices but also what George said about how communities just to aggregate like where the cows walk where the cows paths happen is where nature sort of ends up and people communities will build around really crappy tools if there's really good community and there are some communities that are stuck on really ancient tools because that's where they were born and the tool is not well adapted to their to their conversation or to their goals but getting off the tool is at this point almost impossible because of habits because of that that's where the community lies second thing is it used to be that when I started some group or initiative I would start a mailing list and a wiki and I would try to keep it to that and there weren't that many choices because I wanted the transient conversation I wanted the stock in the flow and that was it I just wanted a stock in a flow I only wanted a stock in a flow I didn't want a whole bunch of other things and then when when uh when slack shows up I'm like ah crap uh because I have a hard time keeping up on slack I'm not a great conversationalist on slack there and then I lose what channel something happened in and I've been on threaded discussions forever since the well since pico span since all that stuff and I have a really hard time participating on threaded discussions because I can't catch up and I feel like I can't post unless I've caught up etc etc etc etc anyway um all this back to say that what we might what we could propose to OGM is hey we have a core set of tools and it's these and then we have a sandbox in the sandbox there's no rules you may be asked to log into 15 different things because part of what OGM is is an exploration into platforms and tools so if if you enter sort of the wild and woolly sandbox or the or the you know the the dark forest or whatever we want to call it um that's where you can go that's the place to go do tool proliferation and don't worry about it but our but our community and our conversations and our work groups are using these three tools and I don't we will you know we'll figure out what those three tools are but I'd rather I'd rather have some some predictability and some stasis on that for a little while until we then migrate to hey we've discovered in this in the in the dark forest a better combo of things we're going to try to move to you know some new some new combo and that this kind of move won't happen very often but I think I think acknowledging a core choosing a core and directing our main conversations into the core is pretty essential toward not losing really important participants like Scott and a bunch of others who are justifiably feeling you know uh platform fatigue because because I'm on everything now and I my my devices slowed down because of it I can't you know can't log into them and I certainly can't make the rounds I feel like I feel like my day consists of multiple times like a doctor going around the world uh doing the rounds so that I'm caught up on the socials caught up on the other kinds of things go ahead Charles I love that metaphor um I mean yeah I have a similar thing I think you know I know we're trying to wrap up I'm I'm anyway doing the rounds I wanted to capture that in my notes though the doctor rounds so um here okay um beat reporting is coming well yeah that relates to is what I forgot earlier so it's just a bunch of stuff I'm just going to pack in really quick here um I'm doing these rounds anyway to some extent not really systematically not not consistently yet and I don't know exactly what I'm signing up for in this experiment now with Pete and and and the the OGM forum but I'm I'm doing this anyway for my own sense making um and George I want to acknowledge this wonderful phrase porting that you have offered which uh is fascinating because it has your name in there so the idea of porting and reporting and um it's it's it's the knowledge ecology right there I to me that's what it is and um and so I'm getting my spidey sense making and and getting into sort of crawling and weaving mode between the channels and the platforms and for sure this is on behalf of anyone who who cares at all and wants to pay attention so maybe that's enough for now on that um so I'm just typing one last chat in here uh personal knowledge ecologies is now a really big thing um at least in my radar and it would be fun to invite those people into OGM and to have an appropriate container to have the discussions about what's what's the difference between the you know roam like tools brain like tools whatever what's the difference between subtle custom methods and other methods and memex and how to be you know and Doug Engelbart's visions and how that all that all feels PKE feels like a really juicy OGM quest of sorts uh at least at least for generative conversations and inviting interesting people in and PKE is the the origins of Kiko lab that was the practical knowledge ecology which is funny anyway and it should be interpersonal knowledge ecologies not just personal knowledge ecologies but many people are very focused on just their own subtle custom right that many people are just trying to figure out how to get their arms around the flood and and my critique has been we have a whole bunch of flow tools and not enough stock tools we just don't have tools for shared memory but we have more and more every day flow tools and we're just drowning in the flood because every flow tool means your rounds includes more tools to come up on the flow with you have to catch up and and there's no way a human can do all of that um all right Judy last word well this was a question actually in terms of the proliferation of personal knowledge ecology how does that then tie back to the collective intelligence of the OGM concept are they all feeder streams to it so everybody wrestling with personal knowledge ecologies in particular those who have an intention of making an interpersonal knowledge ecologies so that's more federated linked connected whatever you want to call it is doing beautiful groundwork for what OGM can be ought to be so I so I would love to figure out how to harness those those people's energies because there's a whole whole big bunch of them out there doing this kind of work well on the discourse forum there is a topic that I started with the title semasis which is the simetasy system that is my project that has changed since then it became visor with is the name of the project and it's developing a stock platform it's developing a knowledge ecosystem through three types of families of use cases the first is the personal knowledge ecosystems the second is the interpersonal and the third is the large scale knowledge ecosystem so these learning journeys are building on top of each other and I am still in the process of defining the requirements for each of the use cases so I will update the concept paper in the next coming this actually I plan to use my winter writing retreat to make the project fundable fabulous cool we have health care I know that Lauren's pitched in a lot on on your on your semasis and so forth so um let's turn into something all right um thank you we can we could keep going but let's get back to our days thank you so much see you in the mirror and matter most and elsewhere see you on the too many platforms thanks ciao