 Now, what do your people, today, anticipated this box stuff in this testimony? The Bitman's, today, they still hold their conviction. Do they really believe that this boy stole this money from Kirk? Well, I went over that with Fred. I haven't discussed that directly with Bitman. I don't really like to get down. Yeah, I agree with you. Too close to him, you know. I agree with you. And Fred was shook. If I guess you would be, I got this. Have you ever told him what I thought about it, where he and I just... Fred? I really haven't told him that you thought that I told him I thought. Sometime I wish you'd tell him, and I think you just have to damn fool, sit down and let that happen. That's what I think. You know, I thought when we put him in there that he wouldn't let the city boys take him, but they just made a monkey out of him. I mean, I can't pick him. Anyway, go ahead and talk to him. Well, he knows. He knows I feel that way. But he, uh, he was just really level. He, uh, said, well, it wasn't the same thing he did below. How'd he know that? Well, there's a test by Mr. L. M. Lopez and Mr. Whitehead, but I'm not gonna predict it. It's just kind of like, tell you, there's no way in the world anybody can put that precise amount of money that isn't over any of it. I anticipate something like he's trying to convince me more so that the Bakers enter in his state more money, but in there what he did is, you know, here it's right the precise amount of money. Just be a miracle that he didn't shoot themselves. Same thing to Abe when he hired him. And then what I told him on the bar of money must, and we told him we couldn't do it, go see Bob Kerr. I didn't call Bob Kerr. I looked at my diary and I didn't call it. He's wrong. I come see me and he did tell me, and then Kerr did tell me that don't worry, he's taken care of it. I'm gonna see him through this period. And to me that meant 20 or 40, 30 million, whatever you need, because he wasn't a guy that started something, he didn't finish. And there wasn't a diary touching here. Kennedy told me, he said, every time I ask him some tax bill, trade bill, anything, he always takes something out of the pot, but said he puts back more. And then when Kennedy told me about this deal, how they had called Erickson and Mansfield out and threatened him and scared him and made him get this boy fired out of Mansfield's house, had Hoover go out there. No, he was strutting. Kennedy told me to go ask him, tell him to resign. I know that was the story then, and I know this is exactly what he told Abe, and they went out and told Clark Clark Clifford. And I know that Clifford represented him. He dampured me. What I think happened, I had no knowledge of it, anything after the 60s. I went out of 61, and Mike Mansfield was the majority leader. But my judgment is there, just like any other election I've been in. An election of 1960 with all these problems that we have with ID&T and all that group. A bit many people were told to go on and spend two, three, four hundred thousand dollars, our state is nearly a million. John Comm is signed and noted Fort Worth and somebody, Adrian Spears signed one, and San Antonio and Doug Singleton signed one in Houston. Abe Epimorson signed one in Johnson City and Tom Butler signed one in Austin. And we just went and got this money and told them to go on and use it, whatever it was, whatever it was, and we took care of it later. Now my judgment is this fellow was trying to keep unanimous control of that committee. He was running it over Harry Bird, and he took everybody on it that had an election. Whether they had a opponent or not, whatever their expenses were, going back or anything, and my guess is he told every damn one of them to help him. And this boy was a conduit like he was every Democrat for twenty years. He was just a damn page boy for all of them. If they wanted cigars, he'd go get them. If they wanted to drink, he'd go get it. If they wanted to deliver money, he'd go deliver it. And Bob Currie wasn't any more stealing any money than a monkey. He just had a heart attack and he just never did deliver his damn money. But he was there to deliver it. And he did deliver the money to this boy. And he delivered the credit to him and he saved the damned operation. But it's not a good potential for him. And there was. That's my judgment. And I'm not so damn sure he didn't give it some of it to him. But I know he told me one time that one of your, my good friends from Alabama, he said that he's having an awful hard time going with us on this measure. But said he's going to go because I told him that he's authorized to go on and spend up to fifteen. I'll pick it up. I know he told Mr. Everett that a good many times. And I know that they did. And it might be a little jerk congressman and Portland Ark. The dead. And he was ready to take over that center. It didn't last long. And it's when he had this hard time. And he wasn't really operating in a big way. But if there's anything wrong, he did it. Or I did it, somebody else. This kid just, he just got to, when he had nothing to do, it got in all this business and started having all this trouble. And the damn tornadoes hit him in earthquakes and everything else. And it wasn't that one man in the center could help him. And he was the one that kept him in the job. He wanted to leave. He just was urging to leave. And I wanted to leave. And I had him out of there. He was going to go practice a little hell out for the fifty-nine dollars a year to come and work with us in the valley. And he's getting sixteen or eighteen or something. But Kurt told him no. And Kurt told me, he said, yeah, damn you, don't you tell that boy. That said, we can't run this thing without him. He was the most valuable man we've got. It was just exactly like you losing the mover or somebody that's the most valuable man. And that's what he said. I resigned, actually. So that was the situation up there. And I have never talked to him since this thing began. I've never had a message, except he called up and wanted me to testify. But I've never had a discussion with him. But I know that he has been victimized, persecuted, unjustly treated, lied upon by all the papers. And, you know, I've read this afternoon about all this three-year period here, while he's doing all this. He was then responsible to the majority leader, Johnson. Well, I wasn't Vice President. I was Vice President from 61 on. I had no more control over him. I have over the justice department. That's the way these things happen. How long is he going to take him? A couple weeks? I didn't hear the rest of it in the season. But last night they said, they thought it was a jury next week. What do you even do with these fellows now? Just keep them sitting there to handle a columnist the rest of their life, these Bitmans, and the rest of them when this is over? I think Bitmans. I've talked with Gordon Hammons who's been about the first march. Right on spot, of course. He'll be leaving about the first of march. He's going to look at him a couple of times. I think Bill... Where was he obtained? Where is he from? I guess he went to Marquette. It's his law out there. And he organized crimes. It's a half a gift. Who put him on this? Of course, he handled it. He was on it a long time. Well, I can tell you, he was on it before the election in 1964 because they... and I'd say maybe eight months before that. I guess maybe he went on the four-byte kids he left. I would imagine he put him on it. May have. The boy said that, you remember? He said that when they asked for his resignation. He announced that in the paper. You think he was shaken by this at all? You think he had any effect? Do you think his testimony had any effect on Bittman? However, they don't have any way of telling him. Most of that, that's refined. When did they know about the envelope? Well, I think they knew about it which I told you this morning until it was brought out in Brown. They weren't there when they opened the box? Our people? Yeah. They didn't know anything about that. I don't think they knew anything about it. Fred confirmed it during this evening. He said no. Is Fred staying on? Is he happy where he is? What's his problem? What does he say? Won't make it much trouble again? No, I don't...