 First, let me think that you came to my talk even though it's a German topic I will be talking in English because I think it's interesting for a wider audience so the question is this one The question is so what is why did he and what does it aim for and I will try to encourage That you concern yourself with white IT and similar alliances So my name is Christian Bahls. I represent Mokos a German organization of victims of sexual abuse Being a victim myself. I was involved in a German discussion about blocking in 2009 Most of the information that I will be presenting here is publicly available It just has to be pieced together in a meaningful way I First planned to do this talk in German, but for the benefit of everybody in the EU. I will be doing this in English So, please deal with me through the German parts like the Parts concerning Germany in the end you should get a picture of what is going on Especially if you are working With our hosting service or access provider based operating in Germany or the European Union You might want to listen up One thing I want to want to make clear in the beginning is I'm not a fundamentalist With regards to fundamental rights. I know there has to be some balance between rights and criminal proceedings but so let's say I'm willing to cooperate with anybody seriously and constructively working against child sexual abuse But that person or that organization has to show willingness to respect fundamental rights Yes, why do I do the talk now? It's a little early. I have to say but I want to live a smaller life in the future I want to finish my PhD thesis and I want to do it before Mr. So Gutenberg does it and I know I have been seeing this for ages in the end of 2009. I told everybody well I will drop out of politics and why I will do my doctoral thesis I did not Well, and I don't have a ghost writer so I have to do it myself So this is my it looks like the only chance to make you aware of what is going on And I can only hope that somebody of you sitting in the room of somebody watching the stream Will pick up where I leave Usually problem with with large gatherings of people everybody thinks everybody else does it No, if you don't do it nobody else does it Actually, as I said a little early for the awareness rising that I'm trying to do but next year's twenty nine C3 will be way too late So going public now is the best decision for me, especially in light of the recent events After this talk there's a Q&A section perhaps off record. I can talk about Some stuff if I am asked So Morgus is an organization of victims of sexual abuse First we call ourselves a voice for victims and it's a bit off now and now we call ourselves Morgus a voice for a reason Most of you probably know me from the German debate on blocking a few of you know might know me from the EU debate on access blocking in the child Protection directive the mom's been proposed to try to introduce mandatory blocking for all of the EU's member states together with Every European digital rights, which is based in Brussels We got the mandatory part removed from the directive and we got some judicial oversight into it the thank you too He has been pivotal as well As Morgus represents victims of sexual abuse we are not only working on fundamental rights But also on child protection issues, which is one of the reason why we got involved with white IT at all The first time I ran into white at he was in 2010 It is see it in 2010 when they unveiled the yes lesion remove now button and How can I say I did a little parody on it the denunciation button 2.0? Actually, I have to say my button was more successful than the yes lesion button Because I got a few hundred reports and they got none or two. I don't know Also, my browser button was not implemented as an XPI, but rather as a book market I didn't tell them how it works. They spent 12,000 euro on XPI, which was licensed under the GPL Which is what's quite nice, but and I thought well in XPI is perhaps a little too intrusive So I did it as a book market as well One thing to remember this yes lesion button might come back and new incarnations It might be the new shiny up for your iPhone or your Android It might have a different name reporting tool Emergency button whatever So I regularly ran into members of white IT Adherings of the European Parliament on the child exploitation director the one which tried to introduce blocking so that's where the Gentlemen over there also came to know white IT During a plenary discussion and to see it against cybercrime which just started at the seabed 2011 I had a plenary discussion together with mr. Schönemann and somebody from the BKR and Mr. Professor Maya from the Leibniz Universität Hannover and I was invited to participate in white IT on stage. So well, I could not decline the offer We agree to take part under the specific condition that we become part of the steering committee within white IT It's called Lenkungskreis now Lenkungskreis plus because we wanted to have control over the process We are not some yes or something or something that can be driven over Well, we did not become member of that the structure changed in between We became a member of the program management board which is just below the Lenkungskreis plus the new Lenkungskreis plus Which for a while seemed good because the program management board manages all of the white IT project Which means I got to know every white IT project Which will be later on which will be important later on in the talk White IT is That's goodness gegen kindes miss brauch und dessen darstellung vor allem in digital world this long title can I say Stems from the fact that I was nabling them about using child pornography in their title This alliance translate as alliance against child abuse and it's depiction especially in a digital world It is an alliance of modern 30 parties like 35 at the moment. I believe So they are from the industry like Avira computer center Fujitsu IBM Intel IT watch Microsoft Oracle Software AG Symantec science the has a platner Institute that might raise some eyebrows or not and University of Hanover then a few NGOs the ads to Kamen Rider Sachsen the hour Bach stiftung bitcom, which is important because that's the providers echo FSM the initiative D 21 and innocence in danger probably also well known in this course And of course, they are governmental organizations organized within white IT So this is ministries and the ministry of interior of lower Saxony with mr. Schöne man as minister than the BKR the state the LKR's for example, Nita Saxon and And Antenburg and a few governmental like federal ministries like a ministry of justice is involved with white IT Why did he was founded in late 29 after the sensual insular campaign when the how can I say the city you realize that? Just blocking doesn't work and as actually they were taking up our momentum from the removed on block campaign so Now they are working cooperatively to Lower the dissemination redistribution of child exploitation material C. A. M. Which I believe is the correct Name for child pornography because child pornography is the wrong term for it this white IT has staffed office in the Ministry of interior lower Saxony, so it's really situated was in the ministry at the moment. It has three employees and It also has a supporting association the white IT supporters, which basically does all the money transactions Why did he currently has three major parts as I said the structure change a little in between the invitation and Out us taking part there's a steering committee which Determines where white IT is going the program management board where the project are being managed and the chef's teller which coordinates the interaction The supporters is an association of white IT members and People like external to white IT to organize financial support for white IT There's also a Bund-Länder Projekt Gruppe Bundesweiter-Heschwert-Datenbank-Kinderpornographie is like a federal database on child abuse images This database will not only contain child abuse material, but also Usual pornography it has five categories only two of them are criminal in Germany and This database I can I say would be a topic for a different talk I hope that somebody might stand up and explain us what this Heschwert-Datenbank-Kinderpornographie is meant to be and how it is supposed to work and what is actually put into this database It's really important. Somebody has to take this up That's actually the reason why I asked you to use the internet and the wiki and perhaps do some open-source research So if you have some time Please look for this oops So the white IT steering board has a few members adds the comma Avira and our buck Stiftung That's quite a kind of kind of strange because it's like the same person representing both Then there's bitcom computer center Fujitsu initiative D21 Microsoft Oracle software agi on Simantec so all the most important player and Most of them being global players So the supporters has been found in 2011 it has been found in Berlin at a standard You give a treatment of this land is in the Saxon in Berlin Sherman is somebody from computer center second chairman is somebody from the minister of interior The treasurer is a German veteran from Afghanistan who currently is intern at the minister Minister of interior the secondary is somebody from Simantec and there is an additional board member Thomas digman a would suggest googling all of them to must digman is kind of strange because he is difficult to find Why did he support us the role is to enlarge the reach of white IT and to be able to raise money for the projects Well, the control by the minister of interior is quite apparent so Why did he has certain projects certain directions that is like Working on first was the research and do the market of child abuse material This actually was quite helpful because it showed that there actually is no market for child abuse material Then some preventive measures measures like kind data werden like don't become a part of perpetrator But the problem with that for my opinion is that this therapy is limited to pedophiles Which is like only 20% of the people abusing children Then some import for helping victims then development and implementation of robust hashes to Recognize an image even if it has changed like the quality setting of a jpeg image or some bit flipped did the orientation or whatever And then of course some detection tools for child abuse material You see I call this still the better part because I Realized that if the police has to search a perpetrator's computer They should not have to look at every picture because that is not good for your mental health So finding pictures that you already know is helpful for them to not get insane after a short time And then of course the implementation and integration of database of child abuse material You see I call this the better part even though I don't really like it. So it will get worse So we have the reporting tool integrated in the client server like the yes lesion button or emergency button or whatever button Actually, I got the remove now button removed from the projects If anybody wants to pay my travel cost for that one meeting, it's 151 euro. I would be really glad and thankful at because it was Yeah, the yes lesion button was some kind like a zombie it kept reappearing. I had to kill it twice No, I actually had to kill it twice really because there was so much It is such a key ingredient to the whole white IT strategy that they could not give it up easily So now we come to the more Automated parts like a dedicated interface for processing notice and takedown messages Then compliance detection and enforcement in the network and the client Like Avira and Simone tech propose and IT watch even is proposing a scanner for the graphic cards Which stops the displaying of such content or is meant to stop displaying such content? I have not seen a working prototype yet Then there is an analysis of state and federal legislation with regard to data protection telecommunication regulation and privacy issues and constitution constitutional rights and Which is about Like how can we do that? How can we scan the client? How can we scan host providers? Whatever? I will talk about more about this later Then there's also planning of new legislation like how can the government interact with the private sector on the removal of content? But also about covered operations For that I'm it loom and especially what what stumbled me was these paragraph 110 a stress process ordnance which mentions how many I know, you know, we just had a Quite a scandal about power manner I cannot possibly believe what they want to do with farm and that topic do they want to distribute child abuse material Yeah, that's like actually that is what it comes down to be I think they want to change legislation so they can distribute these images at the moment They can't and I believe this is good because what we see now is that for example the FBI in the United States can Distribute child abuse material and this material can be seen from here. So we see their honeypots Yeah, that's this is a disgrace because it is this these are images of children being sexually abused and Of course, there is the planning and guiding the political process leading to the necessary change in legislation This is really anticipated the Even now they are already anticipating that they have to change the law to implement what they want to implement So this is what this is about so Why did he is working on chemnet a child abuse media meta information network? In the center you have a database like These company names you can just cross from it because there are more people involved. This is this I'm the more visible and This into this data this data bait is being fed by the police and by the reporting office You see the red button You see it's pivotal because they need the content they need Some people reporting illegal content because actually you get more reports from the public than from the police and So these reporting button and the police Feed into the database and the database gives hashes for compliance scanner and clients like for the anti-vion solution Like Avira and Simantec then the scanning of hosting providers and clouds and the scanning of female providers Like GM X or you see the echo is involved. So There must be some agreement on on proceeding that way Additionally this hash goes to the search engines like big and Google So they find these images on the internet and report them. You see the feedback to the reporting office So it's like a fishnet trawling the internet with like illegal content being reported of course, you know This technology will be neutral to content So if you feed a hash into it, it will find it whether there's that is child abuse images or not And this is what they envision and of course then Certain questions are raised like is it okay to give the hashes to the search providers? So they find what they have to do when they find the file also can they give these hashes to police abroad Is it okay to scan the email of a customer? Is it okay to scan the the host of a customer? Is it okay to scan the client of a customer how to react all the stuff? This is being worked on This is a project where I was kind of close What I was working on with other people was the police cooperation whether it's okay to interact with other police forces in the European Union The other part was split off the project I was working on you might imagine why and Was done in a different project and it was put together after my part of the project finished Which is the reason why I'm here So first and foremost as a victim of sexual abuse I am all against throwing around images of children being sexually abused even if it's done by the police You know it's like the Literal with the shit hits the fan. It's you just cannot do it Even more so I am concerned when the data crosses you this judiciary boundaries Or as being stored international databases Well, I become even more skeptical if data if metadata is involved because it makes it even more harmful When this gets leaked if you know what the name of the victim is then this is really bad for the victim and Actually, these databases are around already and there's no public discussion about these databases What is being fed into it who has access and so on? Hashes of course in the beginning might be less sensitive But they can be far used to look up that content Either if your database is large enough if you are search engine or If you have enough clients to do the search any bot masters around here Imagine like Symantec doing putting that on the client and let's say you have 300,000 commercial clients in Germany alone I think that is enough to find images on the internet if you somehow manage to instrument the client installation of Avira Additionally, I Believe it to be wrong to work on project to scan the customer's data without the involvement of a public discussion So legal questions as I said not only we do realize that this is a problem. They do realize it as well So at the moment there's a legal opinion being sought Whether these hashes can be exchanged. Well, that is like the part of the project I was working on because I was helping and drafting the questions. I was helping and drafting meaningful questions Well, and then there's the other part whether these hashes can be Diseminated to interested parties the antivirus vendors and search engine engines as an example Then there's the question whether there's the willingness of the service providers to use these scanners to scan their customers data as I said email hosting cloud access provider and How does activity by the providers can be assessed whether it violates fundamental rights? Article 10 is telecommunication article 13 is a lawful search And was that changing the providers terms and condition can just accommodate for the scanning of customers data So they want to do the small solution next time you look in and GMX you have to accept a new H eb Which like tells okay, you can use GMX but not for certain content and if you find you using that content and you're on trouble and And Then there's the question of course There are always Providers which are not willing to cooperate on the scanning the customers data. I call them the brave providers We had the same thing in the German blocking discussion in 2009 where some providers said no, we won't block and Which have to have been put into do into the child abuse as corny perhaps you remember and And so they're asking this they're asking themselves like how can we force them to cooperate and Then there of course is a question like how current legislation has to be changed to accommodate For the voluntary and the involuntary scanning of customers data. So that was a spotlight on the Chemnet Additionally, I have a few grievances. I want to make public first is Microsoft and its photo DNA Microsoft as photo DNA, which is which claims to reliably detect images even when distorted or changed otherwise Facebook and uses this to implement their image search Photo DNA is based on research by a digital forensics expert in DASMOS college This research is on a non disclosure agreement I had in some mail exchange with a professor Farid and Microsoft so professor Farid wrote that well, this is under Non disclosure agreement and default technical details are not available and To go to Microsoft and ask them Well, I went to Microsoft Microsoft told me It has not been published and there is quite a bit of information available at Microsoft photo DNA Actually, this is just the usual press kit. I am a scientist. I'm Mathematician and this is just bullshit what you find on that page does it doesn't tell you the algorithm And so if anybody is interested watching a stream or in this room, please if anybody can find out How photo DNA works? I believe it's some heuristics Actually, I believe the reason that is under NDE is because it's it uses heuristics, which can be defeated if you know them and Actually, the heuristics can be found I believe because there is on the internet you can find an abstract to a poster presentation from 2009 I believe for 2010 where You can like somehow reconstruct from the abstract what they are doing. They are going through the image in a certain way So I don't believe this is like really working. So it's under NDA and Microsoft tries to sell it This what is interesting it is that white IT could not get hold of photo DNA for evaluation purposes Pretty interesting because they are working on scanning like criminals computers and they would like to evaluate how good is our robust hashes with comparison to other robust hashes or let's say for example with photo DNA Why did he couldn't get hold of the source of course Microsoft? Well, you would expect to get hold of object code that you can call with an API. No, they didn't get that Neither did they get it as a software as a service Microsoft was even unwilling to give them a black box that they could like upload pictures for scanning So the question really is this photo DNA as a robust as claimed As I said, there's this abstract and there's some other thing, you know Why did he is full of this marketing and sales droid? Sometimes I have the I got the impression It is like a sales venue for these antivirus and other software windows So one of these Microsoft sales representatives told me something about implementing DPI on the router So which would mean that they reassembled packets on the router or some DPI note, whatever and Like put the pictures together and then do the reporting So the question really is is Microsoft working on implementing photo DNA as a DPI technology Recognizing images in a stream of data Next spotlight. There's the role of BSS Boots it and Anna Schoenboom Anna Schoenboom is the son of Jörn Schoenboom who has been Minister of Interior In Brandenburg so that's like how you can found a career He has been with ARDS and with the defense sector for a while and he shared the panel discussion in 2011 with Minister Schoenboom and Frau von Weiler from Innocence in Danger The other panel discussion was Jimmy Schulz from the German Bundestag and he was like, how can I say? They were everywhere everybody was against him, of course It was like a home home game heimspiel for Mr. Schoenboom Even the moderator was in favor of data retention and all the bad stuff that you know about So actually a big up for Jimmy Schulz for being there and taking all the beating And I will not publish the audio him saying Rechtsfreie Raum No, you should have seen his face when the slip from his mouth No, it's he's not in favor of that of using that so Anna Schoenboom recently came into my mind again when there was a discussion about the German Staatsdrojaner Because he said that Trojan horses Secure our prosperity and wealth if you want to go to FIFA denotes build Zeitung It's a little long to type now, but anyway, you will find it uses Q&A section So let's have a look what actually is this BSS Boots at shared service AG At a commercial focus lies on the German security market It concentrates on client that has a security related role governmental organizations nongovernmental organizations and companies involved with defense technology and security that sounds nice doesn't it From the BSS Boots at web page We support all kinds of companies from the security sector in relation to increasing their market share or getting involved with Security research programs. Oh that fits doesn't it? Like what Simantec and Avira are doing at the moment a Further spear of our activity is to advise various political decision makers with regard to security strategies So I ask myself. What is mr. Schoenboom's role in the white IT endeavor? Is he advising minister Schoenman on data retention, which is now called minister Speicher Frist or Minnesdaten Speicherung Is this term coined by him perhaps because I got the impression that he's very well versed in Political processes and how to communicate. So I think really People should use the chance and look up BSS Boots it and Anna Schoenboom and what he does and while we are at it Anna Schoenboom had a wiki-pedia page, you know, it has been removed in 2009 because you know, the usual one It wasn't relevant. I believe Anna Schoenboom is relevant So gate go to the major wiki and put the fucking article and back into the wiki-pedia and research on Anna Schoenboom I think he has to be in public focus and Then the question is what other projects are BSS Boots a chair services are gay and mr. Schoenboom working on I know he works on Tetra. He's promoting Tetra and There might be other things that he's working on like what has his ties to e RDS the defense sector and so on the More or less last topic is the antivirus vendors All of these vendors are working on compliance scanners It watch even wants to implement the compliance scanner on a graphics card Well on a client this will only work very limited perhaps in corporations where you have limited access to the hardware Well this Situation changes if you talk about scanning customers data as planned with Chemnet a hosting provider email provider cloud provider Eventually access provider. I can show you the Chemnet picture again You know they want to scan a corporate networks if you develop a technology to scan a corporate networks with 10,000 nodes You can use it for an access provider. You just need more of it so this can be Understood I believe or can be feared to be the stepstone for enlarging to To beyond the corporations networks and the access providers or end users networks so I Want to single out a single company and that is Symantec the reason Symantec gets this place is because From my point of view it looks as if it's white IT's driver for international internationalization Especially Spain and Netherlands and also to a talk give make the white IT symposium about the internationalization Symantec facilitated the networking with the Spanish Alia do Alia to Which is Fund a Spanish fund which works on the exactly same topic as white IT So Symantec facilitated this networking during the Symantec conference in Spain the interesting thing about Alia do is that they Did not become member of in hope the reporting network for criminal content. They applied for being Meldestelle a contact point for criminal contact content, but they did not become a Hotline they did not become a hotline for child abuse material. I asked myself Why didn't Alia to become member of in hope that perhaps is a question to in hope if anybody in the room are watching the stream wants to perhaps Ask in hope why Alia to is not a member of in hope Please feel free to do so and if you don't do it. Nobody else does it if you want to see it to go on the white IT home page and you will see Alia to the Interaction being announced So let's go back to the talk that I was talking about why actually Symantec gets this place And that is a talk that was given in 2010 and had the title bestrebung und technische realisierbarkeit gegen missproch der kommunikation struktur Like efforts and technical realizability against misuse of communication infrastructure The lecturer of course from Symantec was asking Is the technische sensor in a demokratie durchsetzbar so does technical censorship work with a democracy? How do we work active and proactive against like misuse of networks? Which measures are realizable and how? The reaction on them. Oh, I think that's actually what you ask yourself if you want to imprison your Constituents constituents So then the talk goes on about how new technologies disruptive and how to have to adapt it Actually, it seems that if they identified social networks as a threat their solution to it is DLP data loss prevention Well, that is a very bad picture I did this with this fucking phone and You know, I watched some CSI Miami sequels You see what you can do with image-enhancing technology So you have the management layer which explains what what kind of data is allowed to flow in the network You have to discover if discovery of the of the data like on on the drives You have to discover the monitoring in the network and then you have to action on what happens on the network or on the host Some of you might be remembered on the Schultrojana Schultrojana will work exactly like that 1% of the computers are being scanned. You just install Symantec whatever So this is data loss prevention I ask myself What the fuck has data loss prevention to do with child abuse material actually I want child abuse material to be lost Yes, and actually the other stuff is like He was also mentioning Identity management and copy prevention and ownership detection That now that might sound familiar doesn't it? so It for me as a victim of sexual abuse It looks as if child abuse is being used to force DPI technology technology down our throats Actually this I got this original of the slides. So it wasn't like CSI Miami. You cannot like regenerate that image The other thing is this look what Symantec is was advertising in the same talk their global intelligent networks They have like 240,000 sensors and 200 plus countries 130 million clients and That is that they use for their intelligent on current threats on the internet and also you see they have this 1 billion web requests a day. So also they are harvesting the internet So and it was advertised at the workshop against child abuse images in Hanover in 2010 Which is the reason why Symantec gets the spotlight? So as I said is the talk mentioned all this stuff together with child abuse material And it doesn't fit together Either the CSI representative was completely misguided Which I do not believe because he told me about a new thread which will be applications on the phone and how to Combat like a child abuse material app what you call the child porn app and And So he's not completely misguided I believe Especially as one of the leading question was what matter measures are Realizable and how is the reaction to them? So they are Realizing currently already that what they are doing will not be received nicely by us So Some questions about the strategy of Norden Symantec arise does not in Symantec work on deep packet inspection technology for law enforcement purposes Since very sign recently became part of Norden Symantec perhaps, you know Very sign is the certification authority. Some people might remember Digi notar The question is does very sign hand out certificates to governments to enable their law enforcement agencies to do active men in the middle The reason why I am asking this is because during the talk the series representative was talking about breaking up encryption SSL encryption at the border gateway Perhaps now it's the time that you want to install perspective or you want to enable your Google Chrome for HTS Since PGP it's important also bought PGP and garden edge Candy software to it still be used by end users without fearing that there is some key is crew going on in the background So quick outlook Why that he is currently refocusing its strategy, which is the reason why I'm here They have been how can I say like more covered or nice in the past? currently they are unveiling their strategy which I bought here The legal opinion will probably be organized to be favorable for the measures envisioned Even if not being completely in favor of the measures it would point to legislative measures and how they have to be made Well, actually apart from why that he there are other things you have to think about And there are other alliances which tried to do similar stuff Perhaps not as bad or not as directed at the moment. For example, there is the digital agenda by Commissioner Cruz The one who appointed mr. Zeguttenberg as her advisor on the internet freedom And it has a plan to make the internet a better place for kids Well, I call for a plan to make the world a better place for kids Let's do away with rabies stations first, you know, it's like you can buy drugs and stuff there Or like rabies stations are only for people over 18 or something like that The coalition has about 27 founding members and it's the who is who of like providers be it telephone or Information you see this will be difficult to stem It's planned action include the easing and reporting of harmful cotton content. You remember the red button The wider use of content classification you want to be seen on usual iPhone browser You better label it as like P0 or something And then the effective takedown of child abuse material, which is like similar to the chemnet effort Well, this slide is broken, but the best way for you to predict the future is to shape it and As I said if you don't do it nobody else does it so please get involved with at least the safer internet coalition and It would be nice if somebody takes up my place in white IT because I believe after this talk I will have some trouble over there. I Cannot imagine why but they might misunderstand what I did today. I Thank you very much, and I think we open the floor to questions Yep, that's a huge email address Yes, you know, that's like DG inf so safer internet coalition whatever I didn't want to put the name of the person charter in there because that is like private against privacy Right. So if you have questions, please raise your hand. We have microphones. Please talk into them So that people on the stream can hear you can also ask your questions on RC or on Twitter using the hashtag sol2 Well, I'm sorry In Denmark, we also After New Year we're getting a new law which is mandating DNS blogging of Game sites which are which don't have a license to operate in Denmark Yes, it's the same and that's a response to that we had some blogging from privacy sites and We've also had a voluntary Effort with disabled children and they used police to make a list of child pornography sites which Have been voluntary in the way that if you don't have it the tablet price the tablet press would write about you So and all the big ice-peas have been forced to have it Even though all Everyone who wants to see Titanography, they know how to get around the DNS blogging the thing is with This in Denmark, it's the red Barnett. I believe red Barnett is safe the children Danmark and And this is part of a bigger effort which precluded the EU directive on blogging actually this was part of an effort which started in 2007 and Which was driven by a few non-governmental organizations and was And I say funded by the European Union was in the inexo inside of the safe internet project as inexo which gets funded 400,000 euros for this term which is like the network of child rights organizations and being in favor of blogging Actually, I would not call them child's rights organizations anymore I would call them child rights industry because their business model is based on How can I say exploiting? Sexual abuse because they have to raise money for their work And so they have to be visible in the media and to become visible in the media They have to align with somebody public and that's the reason why they promote the blogging as well because they gain something from it They get popularity and they get money from the European Union. I think they forgot about the children in the process It's my personal opinion The thing is, you know, actually their market share is declining because there are even less children every year in Europe So they started redefining what the child is Child now is every person under 18 and the new child protection directive the definition of child pornography includes images of Adults looking like children like looking like under 18. I think it's very easy to look under 18 if you're like 20 so This way you enlarge your market share. You just grow the market and that's what they are doing You really find what a child is really fine Was child pornography is and that's the reason why they use child pornography because it is a very strange definition It's too broad. It includes more than child abuse images. It includes Content that has been legal in the past in Europe. For example, you have the blechtrommel The the film the blechtrommel is child pornography under the new definition Because you know, this is a small boy and he has sex with the women even if it's simulated Like the directive says simulated contact and also says even without the existence of such a child So purely fictional work. So which is like Nabokov Lolita So I think this overly broad terms Have the danger of damaging the reputation of child protection It's my opinion because you lose the Corporation on that topic if you if you become too broad or too restricted in your measures FYI if you have questions in the back, please line up on the microphone in the middle And if you're in the front, I'll bring the microphone to you Hi This child abuse Is an issue that is very often today and it resembles to me the process of the Video cameras surveillance because I'm remembering when the Basket country bombings and all that process Servit as a vector to introduce the camera surveillance system Because when that technology was introduced the people ask it to the constitutional court and The constitutional court replied validating that a technology Because of our security and so on so it seems like with this child abuse thing is Going the same process and it seems that Surveillance technologies are being implemented with this Issue so my question Because child abuse is a real thing is in how how how might child abuse be Fighted or neutralized or so-and-so With an equilibrium with where where is the equilibrium which is the way to to To deal with this thing Without harming Human rights and so-and-so Well, I don't know where this equilibrium is but I want to have a public discussion about it That's the point Because policy is not only about forcing stuff down people's throws policies is about Organizing support behind your effort and at the moment this is for this and this support is being organized with money I was power and it's not organized by consensus and Also my trouble with this approach to fighting child abuse is that it Puts the attention in the wrong place in Germany 99% of the children are being abused without pictures being taken We focus on the child abuse imagery all the time. We are not talking about the child abuse So every intention we put on technological measures to find to fight the social problem We are losing on the side of the social problem So I want people to concentrate on prevention Intervention of the abuse and the help for the victims I have been involved with the round table talks on sexual abuse in Germany for about half a year I was a member of the round table and this was the same problem It's like everybody is talking about prevention but forgetting all the victims that are already there So and they all it's like it's a little bit like psychology because you don't want to face The real problem with child abuse child abuse is somebody far away is that pedophile over there or it's Well, it's in the internet. It's not like my neighbor or my husband or my uncle my brother You know and people like to look away. It's like you this way you protect yourself from psychological harm But I think policy has to be more intelligent than the average Constituent so actually we have to put the focus on fighting real abuse because that is where the images are being produced So by fighting abuse we will lower this content the availability of that content and Also, I think that all the money being spent on technological measures is best fed into like Educating the police for example, it's quite strange. You know, they have these computers of Assumed perpetrators and they have it in the offices for two years and do not manage to scan it And then the computers go back to the to the people So this is bad on two regards either one thing is it violates your rights for a due process Because it takes too long for them to analyze what is on your heartless and the others like People get away with what they do because the data cannot be scanned. So Because of the equilibrium, I think this has to be somewhere in the middle We have to accept that there has to be some criminal investigation But also the side doing the criminal investigation has to accept that we have fundamental rights and Fundamental rights for me does not mean some bill of rights some some European declaration on human rights or whatever it's like There are a few lines that should not be crossed and one is the privacy and scanning my email to like suspect me as a Pedosexual is going too far I mean some people might Like opt-in into it, but for most of the public. It's just like data retention You think everybody is an abuser and underproven. Otherwise, it's quite strange Especially with a new definition of child pornography. This will become troublesome in the futures so if you have true mention the report or still around please be careful not to cross any borders and Don't put it on your PC at the moment. It is not criminal in Germany, but The law can change any time So especially with organizations like safe the children in a sense and danger Unicef around this can change very fast Which was the reason why I wanted to have the term child abuse images or child abuse material in the directive Which we did not manage through the trial look before the trial it was in the directive But after the trial look it went out of the directive. So now it's child pornography again Which is to grow the term One question from IRC. Do you know of any plans to implement the red button to report normal pornography to protect children? Well to protect children is different because you know, that's like what the Coalition for making the better place for children calls harmful content There's a big difference between harmful content and criminal content. So reporting button for children is like for harmful content and about harmful content, I Think you cannot avoid every trauma in a childhood So to being traumatized as part of being a child some words some less and for me for example When I was eight, I had a thick book in my hand The book was called the first world war and all its scary details They asked the Veltrik und seine grausame Wirklichkeit There was a book full of pictures of people blowing being blown apart big cannons like this grenade Cones, you know, and you could see everything in every detail and I yeah I saw that as an 80-year-old and I have to say I was disturbed Yes, but I tell you what I became a pacifist Yes, you know, you have to see war you have to see what war means to avoid it again So do we want to protect children from all the bad aspects of humanity? So until they are 18, they are not allowed to watch the scary pictures except and as in the history classes I want them to be able to visit rotten.com if they choose so on Rotten.com you can you can watch how it looks if an iraqi surgeon gets shot in the head you get a Very visual depiction of what it means that what you read in your newspaper. Somebody was shot 20 insurgents were shot, whatever or road-bombing. It's like if you have the images you understand What is going on in the Iraq and you want to protect the children and the adolescents from this truth? Like because it's harmful it traumatized them It's completely silly. It's like like like with asthma if you keep all the germs away from the people they get sick So and if you are like protected from all the harmful content You will not be able to get on in life Because when you are 18 there's real life out there waiting for you Thanks for your talk. I have not very technical question as you know When some organization or some person some organization is fighting against something This organization exists as long as the subject of fighting exists so what do you think about and you can see that there is this database which Is dangerous itself in some somehow because of The danger of leaking data from it. So what do you think about? not fighting but Bringing something to reduce The topic of sexual abuse of the of children well you have to tell children how children are being abused so That the problem is if you are child and you are being sexually abused You don't know what happens to you you do not define it as sexual abuse only as an adult You become able to define what happened to you as sexual abuse because only when you become an adult you realize what effects it has on you So you have to educate children what is right and what is wrong and this also means to accept if some child says No, I don't want to wear that dress Because it's a similar or no, I don't want to be touched by grandpa stuff like that and Also, it's the responsibility of the adults to listen to children so The strategy to find abuse is a lot more basic than what you read in the media as I said with the Kind hit a van project the problem is that most people abusing children are not pedophiles They don't have a primary sex or sexual orientation for children They are not only aroused by children. Some of them are not even aroused by children at all So these children are being abused because they are the weakest link Because they are available as the reason why children are being abused not because they are especially sexually attractive They are only sexually attractive for pedophiles. And so we have to understand that child abuse happens around It's a lot less than in earlier years because nowadays we can talk about sexuality For example, I talked with somebody from Ireland. They couldn't even talk about the abuse because they had no words for it They didn't even have words to say I go for the loo You know and feel where the Christians sure you could not say I was at the toilet This was too much that was too gross So they had no words to name their body parts or to name what happens to them And if you don't have the words to talk about it, you have not them but you don't have the mental tools to think about it So actually I think that the sexual liberation of society Enables us to talk about sexual abuse now because before that you could not talk about sexual abuse because sex is taboo and sexual abuse even more so So I think we have to become more open about it like for example Sexual abuse of women now is an everyday topic that you can talk about without people freaking out completely So I think should be the same with sexual abuse of children We should be able to talk about it openly and without freaking out and then we have to find out what we can do and what we can do is not Somewhere far away in the internet, but it's around us if you go somewhere Let's say if you go to a pub or a cocktail bar and you see a child sitting with an adult there Sometimes perhaps you want to ask the child. Is this your father? Is this person related to you? For me for example, this would have helped if somebody would have asked sorry this guy. Is this your father? What is he doing with you here? You know that might have made a difference. I Mean not everybody is as lucky as I was because I was able to go away A lot of people are not able to go away because they are being abused in their families And so we have to talk about that So sometimes you know children listen to what you say and you see them opening up because they can relate to what they say What you say they relate to it? You see it working in them That's like what I would propose it's like a more humanist approach. It's not the Approach well, thank you You