 There we go. All right. Well, good. So good morning, everyone And welcome to the hyperledger health care special interest group or hcc We have a special guest that will be joining us today. His name is Alex Novot Novotny Is that how you pronounce it Alex? So if not me Alex Okay, I'll just call you Alex Yeah, yeah, but we're thrilled to have Alex joining us actually he was he presented his information Quite a few months months ago, and he's he's here to give us an update on the work that he's done So this is fantastic but before we get started as always a reminder that This meeting as is the case for other special interest group meetings through hyperledger is being recorded And as well we have an inter trust policy, and I'm displaying that now Please feel free to read through it the upshot being it's it's all about being a good person So if you have any questions or details, you feel free to take a look at the URL there for details Well, okay, so before we get to Alex I wanted to go through some introductions For anyone that's new on the call It'd be great opportunity to introduce yourself and and tell tell the group a little bit about who you are What you do and where you're calling from and and Jose and I were talking a little bit a little bit earlier And so Jose do you want to introduce yourself? Sure, I'm Jose I'm from Costa Rica and we're currently working in a healthcare project and We're currently using hyperledger, but we're only a start in the project So we want to look for more information on how the community is doing Oh Great to have you and when you say working with hyperledger, have you picked a platform or using fabric or saw? Yeah, we're using fabric. Yeah, excellent. Oh, well very good Well, great to have you on the call and I'm thrilled to have you join us and and of course anyone else on the call feel free to reach out to Jose or Jose contact anybody else either through through zoom here today, or we always have our Our slack like entity that allows us to To communicate and I'm gonna just I'm gonna move this out of the way here So if there's a there's a little link if you can see it here for our chat channel And that takes you over to our hyperledger chat or channel, which allows you to connect it directly that way too And I see Kent Lau on the call Kent. Did you want to introduce yourself? Hi, I'm Kent. I'm in Hong Kong. I'm a pharmacist and I'm dabbling in hyperledger fabric. Oh Outstanding. Oh fantastic And are you new to the group? I've been AWOL for a few months, but I'm back now. Yeah, I'm trying to attend all three different six. So oh Wow, okay. Your name looked very familiar, but yeah, I hadn't seen you. Well, so so great to have you on the call and Just to make a quick sort of introduction. I know Eric Erica is also a pharmacist and so you're in good company with Erica on the call this morning. Thank you already well, so A couple of community a quick community announcements. First of all We are planning for the next HIMS conference, which is happening next year and if you are interested in And speaking we're right now in the process of developing some ideas Where the the sort of initial thought is perhaps to have a Conference panel that talks on the on the topic of blockchain technologies and health care The deadline for that is happening early next week and I do know we're My gut would be that that deadline is probably a very soft deadline I don't honestly don't think the leadership team has done too much on that But if you are interested it would be great to have you to join us if you have ideas feel free to contact me offline and We can get together a small team to sort of think around that And particularly if you're already planning to go to the HIMS conferences might be a great opportunity to get engaged on that level As well, we have our own ravish Juan who is the chair of our payor subgroup He is kicking off their Maryland hyper ledger meetup, which is happening next week Thursday And what's really great about what? What ravish is doing is not only is he kicking off his meetup group that focuses around hyper ledger But as well, he's using that time and opportunity to have a meeting with his HC sick subgroup team Which is a great idea So details are on the link here, which I just brought that up here So feel free if you're in the on the east coast in the Maryland area and you're free next week Thursday Feel free to sign up and head on over there Alrighty, so any comments questions anyone would like to make an announcement of their own to the team here Alrighty, well, I'm thrilled to have Alex on the call again. As I said, he was on the call late last year and he has developed a healthcare application using the sawtooth the hyper ledger sawtooth framework And so We're we're great to have him. We're thrilled to have him back on He's gonna give us a bit of an update on what he has done since November And he's got a great presentation to give to the group here And so I'll ask Alex to sort of take it away Yes Share my screen Perfect and oddly it's in Russian How could that be Actually, I'm from Ukraine Okay. All right. Good. Yes. Yes, and I'm familiar with multiple languages like Russian Ukrainian English and some applications and some of my PC Excellent. Yeah, so Hello everybody Today, I would like to present you an update since Update of current progress since Newton So just a few words about myself I am Alex Rovnovati and Last year's experience in the industry Mostly it is quality assurance About this is about management with different kinds of automation and also I spent Seven years on startups. I found it for projects As CTO and One of this project is basically based on blockchain and this is why I Started learning about chain technology namely hyperlature framework so and Based on this framework, I Developed to proof of concepts one of them Relates to health care, which I would like to present On this meeting So just a few words About What was initially done? on my previous meeting, so I Developed the proof of concept on hip hyperlatures of tools That covered basic use case For a patient who has a claim and visit clinic so Patient comes to clinic and on reception receptionist registers Claim and assign doctor to this claim and then Patient with a maker first visit to doctor and Doctor Suggests some actions to resolve this claim and Finally This patient have used all the suggestions and make another visit so all these actions are stored on blockchain and All the sections started on the chain, so This proof of concept Initially consists of a few components like smart contract itself that handles all such actions and the command line client Which Patient and receptionist may use to store some data Basically So on next slide you may see the main Reasons why I choose blockchain technology to develop this proof of concept Do not spend much time describing this Because I told it about Last time On the next slide you may see You may see As other use cases which can use Such functionality so where This workflow Can be used So If we keep all such data on blockchain we can then Use such data in different cases like Cost It may simply simplify cost calculation between clinics and Service providers and it may help Helpful for clinic and insurance relationships when a patient comes to Want to sign contract For insurance and the insurance company may check real data and check Clients state How he feels Himself, etc before signing contract and the many other cases so about current progress Since previous meeting so We Worked together with Tracy Good and to make as this repository approved and applauded to Hyperlature labs So this repository is available for everybody To Reuse it or update it Also, I added to one more component for this Prototype this is a rest API component This component Allows Allows to add some extra functionality which should not be Basic on blockchain Should be used in different Flows In the health care application And also I added one more component. This is web client This is client that much easier for receptionist and the clients and doctors to make some Changes There So every patient doctor and clinics have their own private keys Which they use to make some changes on blockchain and the last but At least change is about Infrastructure how it is constructed idea is a late at every component In the I move it all infrastructure to docker And is a late at every component for each other This this feature This feature it is much easy to Set up this application on In Clinic environment and also it is simplified Scallion process They want to If you want more clients to join this Application also since our Previous Meeting I check it and turn and turn it and found Couple of at least couple of company computers that Moving similar ways similar way by the way one of them I Use Hyperledger Framework, but there is your might is based on public But anyway Certain competitors exist and moving the same way and also For the moment we have a few Issues Discuss and Solon's it's such issues will help us to move forward this project and Grow up so Hi Yeah, so first item is advisor so basically I am as blockchain developer. I can develop some application I can Program some use case So anything else, but There should be some person who is familiar with health care and the current roses Region particularly in us Who can advise what exit Lee? We should do and point us to the features which useful and Maybe Point on the other features which are not so useful also to Going faster. We need the extra blockchain developers and the not only the blockchain developers 10 developers to make this application beautiful DevOps To manage This application And also the can developers so having If we have for multiple developers this Development of this product will be much faster And also another open issue is that Before we Complete with this prototype we need to find some organization of cost users who potentially agree to try the solution and Give a feedback to us how easy How it is easy to use and does it solve their problems and etc and Last but not least issue is resources like investments and grants and because without investments and grants We can bootstrap this project, but it I assume will not go so fast as it could be Because as far as I can see our potential competitors Move in quite fast and have a progress So basically This is all I wanted to Report you about current progress. Maybe you have some questions Yeah, outstanding. This is really very interesting and From where you were in November to where you are now is is fascinating So thank you so much for giving us status and very much appreciate it And let me get our screen back here So I'll let's open it up to questions. I have a handful questions, but let's let's listen Let's have someone else sort of kick it off. I have a question. I wasn't here. I didn't hear the one meeting that you had a year ago, but By the way, this is Patricia. I'm the CEO of signed and I joined a little bit late But I was very interested in this talk because we're working on on a similar project, you know blockchain for healthcare records and My question to Alex is my first one. I have our others, but is why did he choose sawtooth over fabric? That's a great question. I was gonna ask that question. So thank you, Patricia Yeah Thanks for the question. So Before I started working on this Prototype I evaluated multiple blockchain frameworks including hyperluretile ledger sawtooth, hyper ledger fabric Ethereum and Exonam Ethereum Doesn't work for this because it is Public blockchain and it is too slow. It use proof of work Consensus so it Doesn't fit requirement Also another Exonam, but it is private blockchain, but it is basically Based on rust language, you know, unfortunately, I Not familiar with This language and also there are quite a small community in this That's why I decided not to go this way and also About hyperlature fabric. I found the hybel ledger fabric much More complicated than hyperlature sawtooth and On the current state I Decided that all Benefits provided by fabric are not actually Necessary or required for this kind Prototype And so The final my final decision is was to choose hyperluretile sawtooth because it is much less simple to understand and Study That is my basically all and one more thing Just wanted to know that Blockchain technology is very young for the moment and I believe that Most and so many blockchain frameworks are currently developed in this time and they believe that most of them will die in few years and some of them who Will alive they will Evolucinate it or improve it very Domestic only so I'm not sure even that hyperlatures of truth is the final final approach And the best Choice was this case Well, thank you for that and I'll just add very quickly that most of us Sort of came to the conclusion about sawtooth sawtooth being contributed by Intel that the consensus algorithm called poet our proof of lapse time is is Was originally intended to sort of be very closely wedded to the architecture And that that that consensus mechanism required Intel chipsets There's a chipset sort of embedded called SGX That is no longer the case which is to say that if You're evaluating frameworks be a fabric or sawtooth When you think about sawtooth you don't necessarily have to think about that dependency on Intel chipsets that that dependency was removed oh Gosh, I want to say the the 1.0 version It was probably about a year or so ago and I and oddly I found out about this at the Hems conference in talking with some folks who are developing sawtooth applications similar similar to what Alex is doing and and they they Honestly, they educated me on that because I was under the impression that sawtooth required Intel chipsets and so that is no longer the case Yeah, I just wanted to add Thanks for the hands up about Intel chipsets. This is basically a One of the limitations why Heterolatures of tools cannot be used on Amazon services using Consensus which Works with Intel chipsets. So that is why to use Heterolatures of tools on Amazon we have to use some kind Consensus proof of elastic time Great any other questions I just want to clarify again, so So Richard said that you you can now use the poet consensus. However, Alex I'm just clarifying Alex says you cannot use poet in in Amazon in the Amazon cloud Actually Actually Proof of elastic time This is consensus This is like a virtual consensus or emulation of real consensus Which was planned initially to use in the Heterolatures of tools So if we want to use Heterolatures of tools on Amazon We should use like emulated consensus Yeah, yeah, and and just to clarify that what's one of the nice things about sawtooth is the architecture is much more modular And I've even been told and again, this is third-party or second-hand. I don't know this myself that Because of the modularity in the way that Intel approached their solution It's much easier much cleaner to to pop in or pop out different consensus mechanisms Which is the reason why that dependency is is no longer tightly wedded to the the decision to move to sawtooth Which which is to say if you want to use poet, then you do need the Intel chipset That that dependency because that's how poet works But there are other consensus mechanisms that you can use sort of modularly to plug in to this Framework, and so that's that's where the value lies and in fact, you know my my personal thought Might be that sawtooth gets a lot more traction if it is in fact easier to implement than than fabric But that's you know, that's just my speculation Okay, any any other questions? so so I Okay Go ahead Patricia. I actually have just two more and maybe that I can Put them put them together my question for Alex is I actually looked at the github code and So he has the way he Implemented is is he has a really nice workflow where you have a patient coming to the clinic and so first of all the clinic itself has to be Registered in the blockchain. So you register the clinic you register the doctor And then when the patient come the patient also has to be registered and then There I think the patient in this case. I'm not sure it enters a claim I'm just describing a little bit of what I saw in the code and and then the patient gets treated by the doctor That also is entered everything is entered as a claim I would call it maybe like a transaction, but he calls it claims. It doesn't matter. It's just wording and then when then The Patent gets prescribed pills Which he calls e-pills and then he gets maybe also sent to take some blood test which he calls past test and so my question is I'm guessing that when he says it e-pills it means prescribed drugs My question is where does he store? For example the information about the prescription about the pills Like such as drug name dose And dosage which is like the length of the time that they the patient has to take the drug my guess is he Stores that off-chain Because it's sawtooth. It's a more interesting question because in fabric fabric comes with this couch TV Which is linked to it So so I wonder where he is storing that information in the sec the third question which is linked to the To this is has he run a query? Has he queried the system to score example say find all patients with aspirin prescriptions in the past two months and Has he measured its speed? So one question is where is he storing the actual information of the about prescription and the second it has she query Has he run a query and how fast is it and I'm done with questions Yeah, yeah, thank you very much for these questions so Let me answer about the prescriptions. So in In this particular case in the current to prototype We just keep all data as a description for a transaction and this description is stored in a blockchain as well so In the current implementation or prescription is stored on the chain and link it to Transaction Second question about Query It is not Implemented yet. I agree with you that some data should be implemented on chain but This is not implemented current version but One more layer like In sync to simplify Query Okay, thank you. Thank you for the answer and I have a question for everybody in this panel and I have all the questions. I guess I came with full of questions That's okay. Go. Yeah, excellent. This question is for everybody I always hear anybody who's testing the or not testing actually, there are no many and unfortunately many systems in production but I Go too many blockchain talks and I hear a lot about transaction speed and whenever they talk about transaction speed They're talking about how quickly they can add new information into the blockchain How quickly a new block can be created and consensus can be achieved But I never hear about the speed of a query. What can you query? What if you want even a financial blockchain if you say give me all transactions of More than $100 in the past two months. How quickly can that be done? That's looking at financials as I say it's in this case, it would be medical You give me all patients with aspirin prescriptions in the past two months I wonder if anybody has any information on Anyone doing this queries, how fast are they in you know, how is it done? Is it actually done on the blockchain or are they Quering the off-chain database or how is it linked together? So I'm very curious about that Let me say a few words about it I have many years of experience and quality assurance and huge expertise in the law testing of the different applications and the performance Depends on the quite many Criteria And if you are talking about blockchain, I'm not sure it is Good to say for instance that this blockchain may precede 100,000 transactions per second because it depends on many Cases first case what infrastructure do they use? I mean a number of CPU Memory etc the next point is How Consensus how Faster is how How fast is the consensus for instance ethereum consensus is very slow and proof of Proof of elastic time consensus is a much faster, but still our performance May vary And also this performance depends on number of nodes which used Which work in the consensus for instance if we have a Network blockchain network where two nodes nodes exist and work and Work in consensus in consensus, it will be much faster than for instance 50 nodes nodes if 50 nodes Exist Interacts in consensus So, you know Performance will depend on how many nodes will work in consensus and also performance depends on Network throughput where nodes located Between Each other for instance if one server in the North America and now another server in Africa that performance may depend on this and one more criteria is Communication between Off-chain or we can't and basically blockchain ledger So every this state the criteria may May affect performance so Answer on your question. I think it is not fear to Say about the exact numbers How fast is a particle blockchain is Yeah, yeah, sorry, but not we can just Check test and say is it one blockchain? In the heaven one structure Is faster slower than another blockchain having another? Structure, thank you Alex. I don't know if anyone else can can add to that. I just one Quick comment is that there is a consensus built by hedera hashgraph And they claim they can have 500 transactions a second Based on their consensus and it's scalable to even if you get more nodes It doesn't affect it because of the particular algorithm that they use So you might you want to look at hedera hashgraph However, my question was not about the speed of adding a block but the speed of of Exploring the blockchain of of querying of getting information out that already exists there So I don't know if anybody has an answer to that and any one of the other people in the meeting Hey, this is Ken from Sinterra. We are Using hyper ledger and production for here first MIT security stuff and one of things that without getting into it When we do a query on the blockchain, it's almost instantaneous and I know we probably have 100,000 records in that in that blockchain I mean, we don't do a whole lot of transactions more of it is is a querying the blockchain and it's on for us It's almost instantaneous, but we're only looking for one record out of all those. I don't know if that helps You know, we're not doing any grouping or any calculations. We're just looking to see if this if this Record is there in just a piece of data that's attached to it. That's all So, so can I just just interesting to hear about that? Art do you store data on on the chain or do you link to some other store? This is on change. There's not a whole lot of data on chain Okay, because in my mind it may be yeah, you may have some overhead if you have to follow links to some You know some external stores or whatnot, but it is interesting to hear That the query time is reasonable and that would make sense only because you know, your ledger is local So so that would speed things up quite a bit, but again, if you're if you're having a sort of walk links in the process of You know completing that query it could take Our actually our hyper ledger is actually open Azure and it's been it's been queried from on-site here. Oh Sure. Okay, so I mean it's I mean you got a little bit over a little bit But not much like I said, it's I understand what the release trying to do when it comes to grouping and and That type of searching but if we're just looking for something simple, it's almost instantaneous and it's as fast as any other database And and my my gut would be There's a lot of architectural sort of influence here depending on how you design your solution That kind of obviously have it in it sort of an influence as well Much much as patrice you had noticed noted for fabric, you know, you have couch DB And so you in theory you could use that as a reference other architectures could be designed You know differently and those those would have implications on on on total speed of query Okay, any any other questions So I'd like to ask Alex. So Alex Is anyone Using this right now, are you working with anyone sort of in the field for for a proof of concept? anything on that order or is this you know, is this something that you and your team are working on sort of separately Actually, you know for the moment I'm the only guy who work on this project and I liked very much and It would be great if This project will be successful, but to succeed succeed with this project we need to find advisor and Organization who I want who would be interested to try and It is highly recommended to have such advisor and the organization located somewhere and US because it is quite a big market Yeah, yeah, actually that that so that follows on to my next question, which is It it appears that your solution is not in any way sort of country specific, right? And so the idea would be Someone from from anywhere around the world could take a look at this and use this really as a as a as a foundational component to a workflow and then develop around that Depending on what you know what specific country needs needs are and I think that might be is that correct your approach You're absolutely correct excellent and so One one final question So you talked about Finding a way to grow the team and look for an advisor or what would I would call a subject matter expert to work with? What is what's your what's your view going forward? You know if do you want it? Are you planning to continue to use sawtooth? Are you looking at other options? Do you see? Future growth or features that you'd like to add to this What's what's your thinking going forward? For the moment if we are talking about this prototype Fortunately, I don't see any reasons to add the new features to this prototype until we know some potential use case which can be used By some organization So to proceed with this project we need To find someone who will push this prototype for some organization and once we find such a guy We can Talk to proceed we will know which features we have to add to this prototype and Be ready to work on this project because you know Without Person who will push it with customers There is no chance to succeed. I Spend seven years on startups and Three of four projects fail it because of We couldn't find Investments and Enough clients who Our solution and the confirms that this is really Really solution that solve some problems Okay, well good and and and we certainly have the resources here through the the special interest group You know, we could we could always reach out to the full membership and see if anyone in full membership Has a has an interest in helping you out and I think that might be the next step It's great to have this project under the hyper ledger labs Monica just so that anyone Through hyper ledger has access to this directly And and of course we get the support of hyper ledger leadership to help Manages going forward as well, which is fantastic So any other questions for Alex? Yes, sir close up. Yes. Go ahead. Hi, it's Canton Hong Kong So I'd like to ask Alex. Thank you very much for this presentation I'd like to ask Alex. What sort of things have you customized? From the basic sawtooth package installation So this This project is Based on two other open-source it Products I Use them to implement this prototype and Changes I made first change is that I adopted Workflow for health care needs to cover this use case And the second the most Second major change was I Completely isolated components from each other because you know in regional Implementation In the regional implementation there are as I walk components of the mix it between each other and I Isolated them to have clear structure how it How it presented Did that answer your question Kent? Oh and Kent is on mute Just in case you're trying to answer Thank you for that. I've been talking for about two minutes and I thought Sorry, I was just going to offer some Assistance to Alex because I work as a practicing pharmacist and if he wanted some demo workflows I could give him some prescription data obviously anonymized and Maybe as a pharmacist, we don't just dispense prescriptions. We also sell Medicines over the counter and we do counseling as well So we're not doctors, but if you can't find a doctor then we're probably as close as he can get to do a demo cool, just We can discuss potential what we Our cooperation or something else sure. Thank you Thank you very much yeah, and thank you Kent for for reaching out and Yeah, that that would be fantastic To follow up on that Alrighty anything else. Oh, go ahead Alex. Go ahead Yeah, I just Know I would like to Let you know I Have some experience Expertise and attracting investments basing on my start ups and Last winter we presented Our current startup in Davos during work to come in the forum and During the time I gathered quite many contacts of investors who Potentially interested in Blockchain and health care solutions, you know So this is a most popular area of interest for investors and I have a big Huge base of such investors which we can communicate to and If we find if you can find someone from us Who is interested to push this case? potentially in America in the United States or Europe or Asia we can Maybe prepare some pitch deck and discuss potential potential Cooperation because I believe Blockchain and conjecture health care and conjecture this blockchain we'll Will give a great profit in future In falls care and I see many potential Competitors moving same way, but I Think we can try to Try to work with this project and it make potentially may grow up into something big So if you have some suggestion or feeling you want to attend this project So just feel free Let's discuss and plan our next steps Excellent, all right. Well, yeah, absolutely. And again, we have the resources of the whole of this health care SIG available to us and so One of the things in addition to maybe what Kent has offered is we can always reach out to the full HCC membership as well I just wanted to add that I've seen I'm sure we've all seen quite a lot of health care projects Starting on hyperledger fabric and I just wanted to point out that sawtooth would be quite a novelty at this junction Yeah, I would agree and again again part of my sort of observation at the recent HIMS conference Was that there are there were Quite a few more folks that I would have expected that were using sawtooth and again When I queried them they they felt much like Alex had mentioned earlier in his presentation They felt that sawtooth was easier in some respects to set up than than fabric And so, you know in my mind again, this is very subjective in my mind It may be that sawtooth ends up getting a lot more sort of market share going forward As the community at large understands that there isn't that sort of tight wedding to Intel chipsets Which sawtooth used to have using the poet consensus mechanism. So So, yeah, we may we may see that, you know, there's there's maybe a bit of a shift towards Favour with using sawtooth in the health care space Also, I think another potential feature is integrating the EVM Ethereum virtual machine through hyperledger borrows. So Well, a way back. I was thinking of Once that happens, we can actually cross over with a ERC 20 token to initiate the sawtooth service in the background. Oh Interesting thought. Yeah. Yeah, really cool thought Thank you. I wanted to make it quick. I know we're almost over. I think this Collaboration now I call it like that between Kent and Alex where can't can provide some I don't need my prescription information. It's really interesting So I would like to in a way either participate or at least hear back how you're doing it I especially I'm curious about how you're going to deal with PAI or personal no no more personal health information, you know, the If all this lost the GD, what is it called G DPR GDPR? Yes. Yeah What are you going to store on blockchain what off-chain so that that kind of things I Think probably be a hash redirect. So Yeah, yeah, that's that's I would argue fairly typical, right? But I think Patricia's point earlier on my first thing would be to query the speed of the recall So that was a really good point Patricia Yeah, and I'll just follow on it and Patricia has another great point there, which is as as you move forward with This collaboration. It would be great to find a way for For the for the two of you to sort of status the SIG here because I think many members here would be really interested to understand How you progress going forward? What are the some of the issues that you run into? And the kinds of things that might be helpful for others that are just getting started with with projects somewhere to this Great. I love to Already well, we are coming up to the top of the hour. We just have a minute or two any other comments or thoughts before we Say goodbye. Yes one more comment So I check at multiple blockchain frameworks and Can't say that there is no silver bullet to answer in question what blockchain is the best right and if you choose Hippolyture for So close for this solution. It is not necessary. This is the best way for this case But on my experience as a city war. Yes, for instance, if we spend few months to prepare some prototype and Finally, it will not It will have some obstacles or a bottleneck from technical point of view We can we can easily take another blockchain framework and the rate of Information to you To new to this framework the only reason There is only main reason is that that use case which is handled by this Which is covered by this solution does really work and necessary for users and users want to use this solution. So there is Not a big deal to use one or another blockchain framework Yeah, all ready. Well, we are at the top of the hour and again Thank you so much Alex for for giving us an update and a status on the work that you've done very much appreciated and And Everyone else. Thank you so much for your participation and great questions And have a fantastic weekend. Thank you all. Thanks everyone Thank you