 Welcome back, it's still the breakfast and plus the Africa set for first major conversation The Nigerian Senate has transmitted 35 of the 44 constitution amendment bills to President Muhammad al-Buhari for ascent For ascent rather the lawmakers on Tuesday Director the clerk of the National Assembly to transmit that 35 bills that have so far met the requirement of the provision of section 9 subsection 2 of the concession of the federal Republic of Nigeria to the president for ascent they 35 bills have been considered by 27 state houses of assembly and approved by at least 24 State houses of assembly as required by law the state assemblies however however failed to vote on the two bills that seek financial and Legislative autonomy for local governments in Nigeria now there has been a debate over the issue of autonomy For local governments in the country, which usually operate joint accounts with the state governments are but of course This debate is still ongoing because there will be none of that in the Nigerian constitution if the president Pends his signature to the amendments joining us this morning to look at the failure to introduce financial and legislative autonomy Into the constitution of the federal Republic of Nigeria 1999 as a minute is human rights lawyer justice who able he joins us via zoom from Lagos justice Good morning to you, and thank you very much for your time. Hello justice who? Yes. Thank you very much for your time, sir Good morning. Very well. Thank you. Um, but seeing that the state houses of assembly One of the legislative bodies closest to the people those who are more closer to the people will be and the Local government Legislatures a local bank of government councils, but it said how to assembly are one of the closest to the people and will you say that this rejection of financial and legislative autonomy as an amendment to the CFR in 1999 It's reflective of the will of the people Well Actually, it's laughable and it's all fortunate Actually, they are supposed to be one of the clothes that's to the people, but the question is in practice is the Spaces of assemblies of federal states are they actually close to people and the answer is no Because if they have to lose the people won't be talking about this They won't be just what the people have been yearning for what you have been the expression of the general masses in Nigeria at all times So it's all fortunate that they are they are presenting themselves and not the people because if they're representing the people you As a journalist you can move out there and seek for public opinion You will see that every Nigerian today ones local government autonomy as How he used to be in the past that is so fortunate that the governors are using them Because they don't know they are doing in the first place Almost all the house of assembly members of various things has come to errant boys to all the government And that is why we're getting this but the governor knows that is going to to walk against them with this issue of Is it Is it because they take the account or whatever they call it we are Governors will hijack Monies meant for local governments and not just the local governments and later That is why you see all these things that have been played and unfortunately the members of the house of assembly Veruses are played into their hands. It's so unfortunate. This is not democracy at all This is not democracy we have been yearning for if I this is this is against the rule of law as far as I'm concerned Hmm But I like you to also speak to the fact that if you also look at this some of the bills I'm in 35 of them that were accepted out of You know 44 of them you follow that the this state house of assembly members gave a yes to you know Legislative autonomy for I mean autonomy for the legislators and the state houses and also you have Autonomy also for financial autonomy for you know, the judiciary amongst other issues So I like you to you know, juxtapose that with what they have done even though it's not entirely clear who voted for what and It's also shredded in secrecy You can't actually say which states or which state house assembly said yes, or which did not say yes That's also not you know in in in public domain, but I like you to speak to that They gave a yes to themself to have financial autonomy What happens to you know the development of the local government, especially in 2023 what happens to it now? What becomes of us if you look at the rural communities are if you go to every rural community in Nigeria Not just in Lagos you find that it's underdeveloped Fida roads are nothing to write home about the primary health care Nothing to write home about this should be the concern of local government Including primary education all of these issues are just left there So what becomes of it now that they have given a yes to financial autonomy for you know, the state house assemblies I mean Right and a note to You know local government autonomy Well, if I that's what I'm saying is so unfortunate and if you understand like you rightly said the What they did was first of all to Protect themselves because that is that is wickedness. I see that wickedness They are only interested in self that is selfishness and wickedness but wickedness and selfishness works together And that is why you see this and like we know in Nigeria The local government are the ones that closest to the people Period to this time, of course, we had the 99 position we had the 1979 position things have not been like this the local government's before are the only Authority that is really close to the people and knows the yen is an aspiration of the people but unfortunately These people now these cabals I call them cabals They came into power and tried to walk down the powers of the local government by what they call Is it not the governor's forum or whatever they call it and nobody's talking about that nobody's saying anything You are talking about that. It's not in the public domain people that voted no, for example, I'm from you must It and I'm away. It has been on the news. I mean we are that give me most it has What's them to put it against financial autonomy of the local government? I will soon get to know all of them We should get to know the enemies of Nigeria as I'm concerned these people are the real enemies of Nigeria It's so unfortunate. What is happening to them now? How do you expect? For Nigeria to have development in various local government There won't be development like you say look at go to the villages go to local government in almost all these days It's on that the blobs people are suffering on their basis. No local health care No education you see children sitting or be afloat to have the education In fact, they have killed the educational system of the local government And that is why you see private schools springing up on deliver And most of these people and government are also the owners of these private schools So what are we saying? It's so unfortunate that these people have saddled themselves with Impunity and selfishness is so unfortunate. What we're experiencing today for me This is not democracy at all Do you feel that we've made some progress as far as them in the strengthening democracy is concerned and that The members of the House of Assembly deserve, you know It's a little part on the back because of some of the things that they have been able to agree with the National Assembly 35 out of 44 is not a small number if you look at some of the The bills accepted by or passed by the State House of Assembly Agreeing with the National Assembly things like you know passed to some of the president things like as Messi said you have the autonomy for State legislation legislatures and judiciary things like state of the nation address deadline for Formation of cabinet, ministerial appointments, you know and all that Aren't these things we should come in and realize that Democracy takes time to mold and then we've made some steps forward a lot of steps forward in this regard with this current process The truth is that if some of the thing to start you must first of all start from the grass roots And that is what is called democracy and that is why in simple and not only in simple definition The democracy is defined as the government of the people by the people and for the people Now it's what we're seeing is the actual government of the people by the people and for the people The answer is no who are these people who are talking about the masses We look at people people in the rural areas. These are the people who are talking about But just isn't this a case of a glass half full and let's look at the brighter side, you know because if you look at things like A financial autonomy for state legal messes talked about already enforcement of legislative someone which are very well aware of And you know inauguration of members elect You have for instance the lesion of Reference in the consistent to the provisions of criminal code penal code criminal procedure criminal procedure code evidence act Which are very well aware of you have things like expansion of the Reputation of judicial office appointment of a secretary of the national judicial council the volition of pass when it comes to airports The additional pass fingerprints identification and criminal records the volition of pass correctional services Devolution of pass railways the volition of pass national grid system Which is what people have been climbing for for a long time and Shouldn't we say we've taken some steps forward and acknowledge that and celebrate that for now Any step you take that will not first of all affect the people in the local areas positively for me is not a step You see I thought I'm gonna sign these are all just a bugger of names and what you intend to achieve I don't you don't start from up down you start from down to up and I want you are saying Because I thought I'm consigned. There's nothing you can do without the local government authority Leaving them ignoring them These are we are the people are the people reside the totality of the people the hood number of the people the size here That's what we're saying Whatever you're doing with us in excess of all considering the masses is neither here nor there so this issue of Are you not going to talk about our financial autonomy for the state's house of assembly as an achievement Because this is what they have done to themselves. They have done giving themselves like another who's your location if you remember part of the amendment proposed that was even the issue of independent candidates and Nobody is even talking about all those ones. We're talking about democracy. We're talking about how this coming Justice to a poor apologies. I think we seem to have a network freeze Okay, are you there justice? Okay, we seem to have a network freeze it happens from time to time and all over the world But we hope to get him back as quickly as possible. I am told that justice will be human rights lawyer I guess on the first discussion this morning. It's back. Mr. Who will. Can you hear me, please? Okay, okay, so you you are making a point Yeah, I'm saying that the first of all if you want to get it right We must first of all get its life on the grass roots without that. There's nothing we are doing the issue of Internal financial autonomy to the state of assembly is to me. It's not an achievement Well, um, as it is now, let's also look at it. Do you think that at this period 35 of these bills Aspected to be transmitted to the president for arson and do you think that anything can actually change is a window that you know Maybe with all of the consents that have been raised by Nigerians, there might just be a way to salvage the situation Well, this is the time we will call on every Nigerian to come out openly and we judge This not first thing they are doing because if we for once to get it, right We must first of all get it right at the grass roots, which is the local government authority So whatever thing they are doing as far as I'm concerned is neither here nor there That all Nigerians should come out now in one voice and speak and possibly have a rally I'm possibly go and meet every state government make a rally make a man to every house Assembly and all the government house for them to know that we have presented this that first of all For you to do anything or talk about any amendment The autonomy of the local government was supposed to be paramount before you cut that in your ass But but just this interesting point you've made Which brings us to the question Nigerians really aware and even interested in this process Okay, because they didn't start today's that at least two years ago I was at one of the public hearings, you know the Senate had its the local government had it They were done on a zonal basis. So for instance one in Port Hacott, which I attended had people coming from Biosas state for instance And we do expect everyone from Biosas state to come but for the people in Port Hacott the hall Which is a very big hall was not full and the the members You know the legislators who came to carry out that zonal here public hearing did everything Stay there for a couple of days throughout the day And you know people were not really really interested, you know because I expect to see more people now You're talking about a provision an amendment to the Constitution of Federal Republic of Nigeria 1999 that will benefit the grassroot and we're not seeing anybody saying anything about it The National Assembly has they've done the apart at the State House Assembly. They've done the apart The bill has it's on the table of Mr. President. It is for him to take his presidential pen I don't know if it's black green or blue or red like green pen Yes to sign and then it becomes low so nothing can be done So what do you say to the the lack of the the apparent the seeming apathy of Nigerians to this process? Justice there was there was a lot of publicity. I remember it was all over the media space at least in the city. I mentioned Now the question is this Those people in the local areas in the local government in the villages that do not have access to this media Publication you are talking about what happens to them. Justice. What about those in the cities? They do justice. They do They do justice. Excuse me. Can I can I can I finish you remember that during election or during campaign that we were talking now All these people that I government today that wants to be in government. They will visit all the walks They will go to all the villages and campaign Then when it comes to what that would benefit the people you will no longer apply the same methods You are a journalist you are a journalist. Yes, we have what we call newer national or international agency What are they have you heard about them for the past five years are they saying anything? How are they testing the people and if you remember we have national agencies in all the local governments And their duty or their job is to test the people to capture the attention of what the government wants to do Not today. You are telling me that you're lying on radio and television To educate the people and you and I know that how many of these half assembly members Always have time for meetings with their conferences. Justice the process started from the national assembly Yeah, justice way when the process started from the national assembly Yeah, with the Senate the House of Representatives each having the azonal Public hearings and I'm saying from that point what I noticed was that the the public did not participate in it fully I expect to see um, there's a hole. There's a hole Yeah, no, I'm just trying to to to to make ask you another question Okay, and there's a big hole like in in Port Hacker that was meant to have been used And I thought it was going to be full, you know, we went to cover the event and there will be people outside And but what happened it was it was not full Okay, and what I'm saying is that we made a lot of the media did its job I'm I don't know about national orientation agency if you want to talk about access to the media Those rural areas listen to their radios. I'm a media practitioner. I can tell you we have calls from villages Around Lagos state around river state, you know in other parts of the country they listen But let's say we we're talking about those in the cities alone justice those even in the cities are also Subjects and members and residents and citizens of local government areas They get the services of local government areas If you use Port Hacker as a case study, you have to be a poor local government area You have Port Hacker city local government area. You have a great local government area You have Oibu local government These are urban centers You're going too far. Can I tell you something? You are not a politician as you may know except you are maybe I know that some of you knows what these politicians do But I can't you put on want to say it's the place that the way you did But I will have to tell you this When some of these things like these are to happen Some of these what they do is to go and invite their party members And their loyalists to to come there and they will pretend I think they are the public They are not the public that what I'm trying to tell you I am a Nigerian. I am close to the grass roots. I know what is happening So let us stop pretending in this country Call the town hall meeting today. All the people you see there are party members You will not see people in the rural areas because they were not informed You are saying that you admit your position and these things are in the domain If it is in the domain, how many people in your locality today listening is listening to this program we are doing now I'm asking you a question Listen to radio In other people listening to radio This is where the world has stopped the people like yourself Maybe the Nigerian but what have stopped the Nigerian Bar Association The world has stopped the Nigerian Miracle Association The Nigerian Bar Association Civil Society, NLC Those of you who are aware from going to the House of Assembly To hope placards to say no We will not allow you are members And go away with this We want you to approve and start across all the state houses or assembly across the country What have stopped you from doing that We need to move away from this We have done it separately in this country We have done it separately in this country You are now you know that we are in the era Justice We need to move away from this now We need to move away from this now Justice will work but we need to move away from this now But I like you this would be the last answer from us As we coasted down because we have our next guest Those who stand by you know to join us As we look at all the issues But now this is what it is I am very concerned about What becomes of development For us in 2023 In our local government And we have been told in elementary government That the essence of the local government Is to bring government closer to the people So now that you know Financial autonomy and administration For local government has been rejected By state houses of assembly By implication it means that the governors Also have rejected it What does this mean For development Well it means that the country Will keep on going down the drain That what we call Yes In economy that what we call Lot of diminishing return And that is what we are going to get in 2023 Whether we believe it or not We are saying we want change Everybody campaigning outside there Many people are not talking about this It's just like what we are saying And so I am concerned it is the wickedness And someness of the governors that have brought about this That have given bench to this And nobody is talking about the governors Nobody is talking about anything Because like I said earlier Because the house of assembly members Have come to Aaron voice to all the governors Why are there judges in it In the first place Why would the local government not have financial autonomy Because it used to be before And that is why we are not developing And we are talking This is the wake up call to every Nigerian Election is forthcoming So that when people can be Man enough to elect people In the federal system of assembly That know their ownings That know what they are going there to do And not teach that governors will hand speak And go and put in the house of assembly That is what has given rise to this Justice Uwe, thank you very much for your time We appreciate your in depth and expert analysis As always and look forward to having you next time Thank you very much You are my pleasure also Still ahead on the program We have discussions on of course The interest rate to increase Recently by the monetary policy committee Nigeria's interest rate The benchmark interest rate Currently stands at 17.5% We will be right back