 Well, I've got a question and maybe, I don't know, Mika you'd be one of the people I'd like to ask it of. Okay. It's just it's like a concept I've been trying to develop and I don't know if it's a good idea but it made me think of it because of the Twitter lists and stuff. So, you know, I've been I've been kind of focusing on this regeneration worldview question you know how do you make the world think about positive things and achieve abundance and you know those kinds of notions. And there's a bunch of people who are creating content around that thought a lot of the content's pretty good, but the content's not widely distributed there's no, there's no. Nobody has a big channel, I guess that's what I thought. And the, and the notion was well let's create a big channel, you know, could we create a network and ESPN for regeneration. I'm assuming it's a pretty obvious notion and I'm just wondering, does it ever work and you kind of you kind of did it with back in the day and I'm just wondering if you had any thoughts of. I had a big channel. Well, you were you were working on building and well maybe, you know, we had a moment. Yeah. You own the topic for a time, I'd say. Yeah, the, that's a great idea and I would say, arguably, you may be closer to success than you realize and you just have to keep plugging away. You know, one of the weird things about when does something catch on is, you know, probably lots of people were each trying at different moments but you know one gets the wave. And so I wouldn't presume that, you know, if it hasn't caught on yet that it won't ever. I did stumble on something called the Gaia network the other day, which is is a cable, you know, channel. I found it because I was interested in watching a little documentary about astronauts who have experienced being up in space and who have, who talk about how that changes their, their worldview maybe it even came up on one of these calls. One is that the Gaia network is mostly about new age spiritualism. Yeah, I saw that I roll to me. And yeah, so it's sort of like, you know, if you're looking for the good stuff. It comes with a lot of woo woo. In regards to that particular topic of astronauts. Have you met Rusty Schweikart? No. Jerry you might have because he was a GBN network member. I don't remember ever actually crossing paths with him but I know he was part of the GBN group. Yeah. He was an Apollo astronaut was on the Apollo 10 mission. And I had a conversation with him one point he talks about have he was out on a spacewalk. And there was an issue that came up and NASA essentially told him, okay, you just just hold tight for a minute. And he had an incredible opportunity to just be there, looking at the earth in front of him, without having any other responsibilities for that 30 second 60 second period of just being able to absorb absolutely the most life changing experience he's ever had. I think he's still around. So he has someone who has had a he is someone who had that extremely rare experience, but even an even rarer version of it. Because it wasn't just the seeing it as part of something doing other things but one of the astronauts who's centered in the documentary I'm thinking of was on the first mission that went to the moon, but he was the one sitting up there, you know circling while the other astronauts were down. Command module. He also had a lot of free time. Michael Collins would be that yeah something like, I mean there are a number of them, and there are some younger ones who have only been up in the space station. They were also interviewed and they all talk about the transformative effect of seeing the earth as one thing. So there's a natural conclusion from this which is all we need to do for world peace is send everyone up to the space station or something similar. That is definitely not what Jeff Bezos has in mind but I'm not entirely clearly intended but yeah yeah and and the other thing they do point out is that while the the cliche is that there are no boundaries visible from space. You know that the borders are a social construct that in fact boundaries are visible from space. But Dave, I will look at your, your concept doc, and I do think this this this notion of, you know, a different type of media system is one of the ideas that's out there bubbling. Okay, that would be really helpful. Yeah, I don't know it just seems like a natural fit in terms like it seems like it's a worker on co op, you know the media creators on this. And there's a talented people doing good stuff, but just none of them are, you know, breaking through. You invoked, you know, ESPN for, you know, you picked a media franchise where they talk about winners and losers a lot. Great notion for regen. On the other hand, sports center is one of their most popular formats that isn't actually covering a sporting event. It's talk. And so why don't you do, you know, regen center, you know you need to have, you know, dialogues about why is this important. Most of the people that I've heard talk about the topic like you, and most recently a Art Brock talk that I invited him to talk to people centered Internet, where he mentioned that as as part of the living systems metaphors that he advocates, you know, in terms of currencies. You need to really kind of get people to watch a conversation as opposed to a monologue. Right, I think that they would really get engaged with a conversation. Dave. So that would be my thought. Yeah, and so in the way I've been kind of framing it is there's a lot of people trying to do various formats right like conversations and stuff. I don't really want to like be designing the formats. I want to try to somehow aggregate the by the assumption is that we can aggregate the people, then the we can grow the audience. Well, that's the Huffington Post model. Maybe you're not writing anything you're just read. Well maybe actually that's what's already there and becoming an anthology, you know, of, here's what's going on this week, you know. So, I mean, you know, like, by every having every and they're all individuals are for the most part are very small organization right and none of them have the capacity to do great search engine optimization or, you know, they're not too media campaign advertising campaigns of any kind or, you know, right things that things like that that you probably work well if you can aggregate enough eyeballs. I really like the idea of not having this be a broadcast aggregated eyeballs thing but rather be a series of nested can slightly connect lightly loosely connected conversations. I love that idea and I think that the more those conversations don't face inward but face outward and include people who disagree, the more powerful the network actually becomes so that there could be a trope a method, you know, you know, there's like table for six which is a really efficient dating mechanism because table for six are really chatty and work well. You could do something similar there's a bunch of sort of democracy and action kinds of things that get people together, and just lather rinse repeat, and do it as informal zooms do it as a face to face, you know, dining in areas whatever it might whatever it might be, but but build a network that isn't just a damned broadcast system trying to get eyeballs. Because because I like there's good news networks is a bunch of stuff out there. I, I've grown really resentful of broadcast media. And I think the answer to fix things is actually engagement of different of lots of different levels and we've talked a bunch about this with Stacy Abrams and deep canvas saying with a bunch of sort of things but but there's an opportunity here to use regeneration as a meme theme unifying cortex to actually connect people and talk through the issues and then I'll layer on to that. The thing I'm trying to figure out right now is how to build a persistent memory from what we learned from all those things so that we're not always just repeating everything and wasting time duplicating our efforts all over the place. So then, how do these conversations contribute to a Wikipedia like but different entity that starts to put together how this shit works. I think it's really helpful. Yeah, I think I'm dividing designing an old old style model with an extractive model when I need to. Exactly you need a regenerative model that and there's this opportunity to build the technologies Jeep is an opportunity to build something very regenerative and also, like, I was, I did some angry tweets before getting on this call. This is about, you know, rules and regulations around assault weapons. And I'm like, look, people, I can put plastic on a bolt action rifle and make it look really sexy and it won't be any more dangerous than a bolt action rifle. The AR 15 as Jim follows has written about umpteen times and others. The 15 was designed to be insanely lethal to humans. And then tumbles goes out like a grapefruit and destroys everything in its path because it's extremely high velocity very low, low mass. So it just like rips through people. You can't save the people with it with another bullet even with a big slug that's going slower. It makes a big it makes a it makes a hole if it breaks things you kind of fix them you can you can patch somebody with a different weapon. So, so for me, any weapon that is designed and has this kind of effect should be should be military grade only, and anybody found with one should be put in jail they should be confiscated by back program whatever. But that doesn't exist any place on a place where we can sort of point to it and say, this is why here's the evidence. This is how that's different and any, any, whatever you see an interview of somebody with an NRA or rifle person they're like, Well, you don't really understand she could just like you just pull the trigger a bunch of times. It's like, yes, they're right actually technically because nobody's looking behind the curtain at what the issues are but we could, we could figure those out together. And then stop being ignorant and duplicative all the time because it's a waste of time. And while we're busy wasting our time the other side is busy making inroads. Part of the problem that part of the problem on that particular issue is that a lot of the legislation around restrictions of, you know, quote unquote assault weapons is has been that has been magazine size. Yeah, absolutely. Is there a front handle? Is there a pistol grip on the stock? Yeah, things that that you basically the the mini 14, I think is a is a rifle that fires the exact same ammunition as the AR 15. But it looks like a like a sort of bog standard hunting rifle exact same weapon exact same effect, but it looks different and it was not on the assault rifle assault weapon list assault rifle and assault weapon or different things. It's so easy to get caught up into the jargon arguments. Yep, like, do you do you say clip? Well, clips wrong. You have to it's a magazine not it's all this stuff that is used to distract from the, I was gonna say the meat of the conversation but that's a little on the nose. I think that the most salient thing that I've heard recently in this regard is we have a tendency to move all of the energy of the conversation toward the single NRA. Right. That those are the people, you know that we're, I think that to remove the NRA out of the conversation and go directly and name the gun manufacturers name the people who are manufacturing the bullets. Okay. And that you know this is a front organization for, you know, an amalgam of interests, right, is just don't give them any more air time, go directly to I think the problem is Remington firearms. I think the problem is right name the companies that are making the stuff, because they want you to pay attention to the NRA as the front organization so they aren't seen. The NRA was designed, was developed as a, as the target. Exactly. You're spot on. And I'm just saying, you know, we need to pull the curtain up and say, look at all the actors, the economic actors that are, you know, behind this right and let them stand forward with, you know, the outcomes of what they make. To that, to that point the, the gunman who shot up the grocery store in Buffalo, and the gunman who shot up the school in Texas, both use AR 15s that were made and sold by a particular manufacturer who's been, who has been so aggressive about marketing. They have something that they sell with the name of this, the urban super sniper. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it would be interesting to see one manufacturer it only take one to step forward to say, like buying one of the very advanced automobiles that you actually have to come to and learn how to drive this thing, because you're not going to know right, the minute, you know, we give it to you. So our, you know, company, we won't sell you one until you come and take training from us. That would be actually responsible. Right. Step forward. Right. Because then you'd be moving more toward the way the Swiss treat, you know, very heavily armed population. But completely different outcomes, very because of the way that they think about the way that they train, you know, that's like an entire. It's, it's, it's basically the way the second man was a well regulated militia. Right, is so that's what the Swiss population is, where we have a bunch of people who can. What was the quote of the weekend easier to get a firearm than it is to get baby formula right now. And crazy. Yeah, you're more likely to go on a federal list if you try and buy Sudafed. Yeah, 100%. Right. But the thing is, is that the, the political power of the gun lobby is now bound up in. You know, I, it's hard to tell anymore what's the engine and what's the caboose but the, the far right the mainstreaming of a whole far right worldview. Where owning a gun for an especially a lot of guns for a lot of people is an identity statement. And every effort, I was thinking about this the other day that if you had to, you know, crystallize the identity of liberal versus conservative, you know, a liberal wants stronger government, a conservative wants more guns. And, you know, the more we liberals say, hey, sensible government would regulate these things what the conservative hears is they're coming to get my guns I got to get more guns. And you're in a very, very bad loop. Mika your last newsletter was really great on this although I found my conversation with you clearer than your newsletter this time because you made the point really well that the grassroots movements for gun control gun action of some kind have been co-opted by kind of the Bloomberg envelope in some way. And I didn't get it as firmly from from what you wrote unfortunately. But, you know, gun control has become gun safety it's like scrub gun control from your from your vocabulary no such thing it's only gun safety now. And that what you have is the world of data driven campaigning and message testing has determined that the word control doesn't do as well. If you're trying to move, you know, your swing voters towards, you know, something they believe is possible. Right. So safety is a better frame. So safety would, you know, pick the frame that works best for you. But that to me there's a different problem in that the Bloomberg Borg has come into this space with so much money, and with such a controlling apparatus that we had the kids from Parkland create something new that no one expected and that was very effective in reaching young people. It too was seen as competition to be absorbed rather than, you know, a healthy alternative way of approaching the issue. And, you know, so it's interesting that many of the kids from Parkland are no longer involved in the organization they started. And the one who is David hog has made very clear that he has political ambitions he wants to run for Congress as soon as he turns 25. I'm just struck that after you've already happened. And the first response of many people was, that's it I'm done. I'm ready to, you know, take action that would show that we will no longer accept this that you know, business as usual has to be interrupted that no, quote, responsible gun safety organization was going to do anything with that. Right. They want a very controlled approach to lobbying to, you know, get some incremental legislation passed. And, and that the politics of this now is very tightly controlled. It's crazy, but it's going to get changed. I think that there is likely an external force that will change the conversation because there are other lobbying that will come in to counter this and that is, we're likely to see other governments start to say it is not safe to travel to the United States. Once we get a listing that says, look, you know, that there are 30 events a weekend, all right, where people are getting killed in major cities are it is not safe to travel to the United States that other state departments are putting up flags, saying don't go there, right, it's not a good place to go to. There's a really, you know, there's a lot of money that comes in from tourism, right, that once we get tagged, we hit that tipping point. There is a, you know, a whole different counter force that will come in that say we cannot be characterized that way. Okay, I think it's Kevin that actually several several countries, European countries already do have specific warnings about the US. I got that. I think Germany was like saying do not travel to Florida. But the question is, is the, will the governments make a statement about that is, do the citizens of those countries follow that statement. If there's actual an actual reduction in tourism, then you'll get that then you'll see that kind of response but just simply a statement from the German government just or whatever it. It's a threshold if it's just a statement. I know. I agree with that. But it's, it's not a tipping point yet. But it can be. And I'll tell you that the people who are, you know, that run the airlines and run the hotels and run, you know, if they all decide to call, right, their, you know, elected officials and say, you guys got to do something. All right, they will, right, because the amount of money that flows in that direction versus the gun industry, right, is substantially larger. You know, you guys talked at the beginning about, what was it, you made an eye roll. I just wanted to add another eye roll thing. You're familiar with some of you may be familiar with this whole notion of spiral dynamics. Yep. Don Beck, who was one of the proponents of this and worked with Claire Graves on, you know, you know, inherited his experiments from upstate New York died in February, March. And there's a service for him in Denton, Texas that I'm going to see online this Friday. And the thing is that spiral dynamics started off as a psychology experiment by Graves and has become kind of a cult. Right. I mean, you know, so it's eye rolly, you know, in its own way, the taxonomy is very well developed right in terms of descriptive language. However, nobody's ever bothered to replicate Graves experiments. All right. And, you know, I couldn't and I said, Don, you know, the only way that this is going to get legit is you need to have some other researchers replicate the experiments. You need to see whether actually works outside of upstate New York. Right. And he, you know, he and, you know, people who were traveled in all those circles resisted. And I just talked to somebody the other day I said, Now that Don has passed. Right. This thing either has the ability to potentially do the replicability. To do so that it can rise to the level of going from hypothesis to thesis, or, you know, it's going to be, and it's going to remain in its cult like state. So I just put a marker in the ground that it has a moment that it could, you know, become something more legit. And it has the seeds of being a really interesting hypothesis, but that's where it stands at the moment. And it's, it's kind of a lot of clarifying work like that that needs to be done in the world. It takes me a little bit back to what I was saying earlier about where's our scaffolding for sharing ideas and improving ideas over time. And, and there's the replicability crisis in psychology and sociology where many, many, many studies that led to policies are not replicable they're just proving that like oops something was off or conditions have changed where people aren't really like that. So for me, this collective inquiry, this this this joint quest together to answer those kinds of questions should be like the happy work of some large slice of us like 10% of humans ought to be engaged together in that quest doesn't need to be everybody by any means but but some goodly hunk of us ought to see that as our civic duty as our collective human endeavor as part of what learning and teaching means all that kind of thing. The question. So, Kevin was just saying that spiral dynamics and clear graves experiments ought to be replicated and how do we how do we sort of do that. And I'm just sort of spinning off from that saying spiral dynamics is one really fascinating set of models about how the world works and what to do about it. I was just reading a long form piece about Steve Bannon yesterday by Jennifer senior which was an insanely good article. And he was a big believer in the great turning theory which basically says every 70 years or 80 years is like a psych, there's yet another cyclical theory of human history. Awesome. How do we compare notes how do we how do we like let there's open databases now there's open analytic tools. How do we line these things up so that we can have richer more interesting data based conversations and so that when we arrive at conclusions we can share their conclusions and put them up for review annotation and the people who hate this conclusion can say no no no we think this is true over here, but we can then at least see it. Because right now it's like a torrent of essays and posts and tweets and anger and, and all that kind of stuff and that doesn't really work. And on the controversial Wikipedia pages they've got to lock the page. Right. So, during the Bush carry electoral cycle that the George Bush and the John Kerry Wikipedia pages had to be locked because there were lots of people trying to vandalize. How do we bump that up a little bit. And Dave, a regenerative community conversation to me is a very, very nice envelope or container for that process. And this is like Kevin, you know, Kevin got me to do like an intro to regeneration talk a couple of weeks ago and it was been really helpful because it made me go back and try to think about the introduction regeneration and how hard it was for me to explain. And one of the things that I've come to you from that thread is like, oh wow what I really want is people to change the world view. That's all, you know, and so like and we've been doing our like not asking much. And we've been doing this like weekly Buddhist Songa, you know, and like, I'm not very Buddhist, but, but the song is fascinating and it's like, you start to look at how they designed the religion that's like, oh, that's what's going on here, you know, and it's like oh fuck now you're like a religion making and that's like, I don't really want to be there. But, but at the end of the day, I mean, everything that we're talking about has, you know, somehow you're changing the way people think or what they think or, you know, right, I mean we're asking people to learn at a general kind of gentlest term or change their mind, right, or more fundamentally change the way they see the world. And I don't know that we ask ourselves how that's done enough, you know, so I guess spiral dynamics is in some sense saying this is the process you go through to change your mind. But, you know, there is something about it's not logic, clearly, you know, and now it's not even like the journalism. So it's some kind of an immersion or it's some kind of set of experiences that they happen over time or, you know, it's a repeated process and I mean we actually know some of the things that it takes to change our mind. You know, I'm just not sure that we apply them very, very consistently and I don't know that we studied them very carefully. But I don't know the history of Scientology and I think it would be really cool to, you know, thinking about, because you can kind of see people sitting around saying, Well, you know, if we were going to change the direction of the world, you know, we just got him to believe in the afterlife. You know, and everything is so much easier. I'm sorry I was muted. Here's the nexus of stuff I've got on personal change, in particular so personal changes more than that but changing behaviors and habit formation is different from changing your mind so I've got those in different places. But here's a bunch of collection of people who left racist nationalist groups. Here's people who left the church. I highly recommend following Chrissy Stroop, who posts like wonderfully on Twitter, but her book was disappointing. Oh really. Yeah. Oh that's too bad. That's very too bad. I helps for that book. Yeah, but you know in changing your mind Jerry. There's also all the people who are getting into stuff. You're showing examples of people coming out. All right. Do you have examples of people who are going in. Oh, you bet. Let me just connect this to today's call. And then go back out to post on neuro linguistic programming, you know, recently, you know, as, you know, most of what you're doing we need to start teaching symbolic logic and junior high school so that people can, you know, resist NLP. Right. Yeah, yeah. Because they don't know that they don't know a logical fallacy when they see one. So I had, I'm looking for it now but basically I found. Here we go. Got ending child abuse is a recruitment vector for QAnon. So one of my beliefs and this I got from Alice Miller is that different kinds of child abuse are far more prevalent than we think they are partly because we've socialized we've normalized a lot of actually really pretty abusive things that we do to kids. Never mind satanic ritual abuse or anything like that. But there's a there's like mothers for QAnon, there's a whole bunch of moms who heard some truths in the QAnon spills the QAnon means, and we're like, Well, yes, nobody else is saying that I will follow this group. And that was a tunnel into the rabbit hole of QAnon, which then means you're believing a whole bunch of other stuff but then you got a whole bunch of people running around with you going yes that's true. So, so you've got community and and and community is this incredible powerful force so I have another thought. I think I've got something about in cells basically. I have to find it, but that during Trump's run up. There were, you know, if you posted the Pepe the frog meme that went viral that day, you were giving high fives on 8chan, you know, behind the curtain that day and you were making friends and community and building really strong relationships and by the way, the reason soldiers hate, you know getting out of war is that there is no stronger bond than that between soul mates or, you know, fighting mates in an insurgency. And if you see QAnon and the Trump, Trump apocalypse as an insurgency. Click, click, click, click, click, click, click, all those pieces just hum together, they just hum together. And so people are getting from involvement in these movements of the kind of juice that they don't get from society and in the meantime when they look outside society is busy melting down, partly because they've been radicalized and they're breaking everything but hey, what the heck. The controls feel a sense of community inside their insurgency that's. And then I'm going to connect that to membership emotion. So I've got a big thought emotion and membership Trump reason most of the time stories are the vessel. This is a really important node for me. Really important, because facts don't commit here facts don't change people's minds often. They don't change people's minds we need to realize that because well because facts don't create a frame. Right. What's the line you can't reason, you cannot reason somebody out of a position they do not reason themselves into. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, Irving Goffman's frame analysis is useful to knowing you know what can get in and what can, you know, you know, reinforce the other stuff that gets rejected, you know, it's also Santa Fe Institute, you know, complex adaptive system stuff, right. You know the pre existing schema only allows in certain kinds of information through the semi permeable membrane of the organization other stuff gets deflected self reinforcing its own worldview back to worldview. One of the interesting things about organizations and their worldviews is that they create a filter with which to exclude handily competing worldviews that might actually disarm, or, or, you know, tear down. Eventually you become dysfunctional to your fitness landscape. Right. And if that's the case, right, then, you know, you're headed toward an extinction event because you're not relevant. Right. This is why I hope I have access to resources. This is what I hope is happening to Vladimir Putin in the next couple months. Exactly that, because he has an entire nation underthrall with lies with a whole armature of media basically spinning what's happening in on on his story. All of which is undermined by actual facts and truth and stuff is happening on the ground. So I think at some point, Russia has a long and ignoble history of their military laying down their arms. And I'm counting on that I'm counting on the Russian military being so so demoralized and so broken that they say no fuck you we're out of here. I forget where I saw it but somebody described the the five word summary of Russian history what is quote, and then it got worse. It has this like crazy way of wasting humans. Like like in World War Two, how many Americans died in World War Two. 438,000. How many Germans died in World War Two. 21 million. How many Russians died in World War Two. You counting the famines to 28 million. If the famine was during the war caused by the war, it's probably in that number but but no Mao and Stalin caused other deaths, including, including one of the reasons Ukraine has a beef with Russia is the Kulaks, you know, the deep civilization, which is not world war. Yeah, I mean, yeah, the whole of them are. You know, if, if you don't give the credit to the logistics people in the quarter master core that they deserve, right, you will never be able to effectively do anything. Yeah, they're the, you know, if you have a really good quarter master core, you can accomplish a lot. If you don't have a, you know, the military's view of a great supply chain. Why, and yes, they're Stalin. Is it a revolution, looking young men. Yeah, actually look like George Michael. Okay. Maybe that's why I have such a following. I'm sorry just. Yeah, yeah. So I, Jerry, that's fascinating stuff. But the number of people that are engaging in a conversation like the type that we have here and are having today is such a small fraction of the population is back to Dave. Dave is not how do you, how do you, you know, get adjacency spun up so that people want to know about this. We need the whitelist, we need to whitelist the country. And I wish it weren't called fight list, but we need to whitelist the country by which I mean, every one of these communities needs to reach out to people that are a little bit more on the opposite end than they are, and build slow relationships and try to be helpful, and listen, not convince not sell not anything like that just listen and so forth. Some people need to go to the middle of the country and volunteer and show up and just keep showing up and be present. And over time, people will stop leaving those kinds of things I think. Do you do you think you could actually get there without punching their amygdala first like everybody else does. I agree with personal change like sometimes only sometimes only crisis will provoke a change right. Okay, but but sometimes not. And I think I don't know but I think it varies by human. So, can I can I just push back on that slightly Jerry I realized I was exaggerating as I was saying that I mean as an individual I agree that, you know, finding ways to have a civil conversation and, and, you know, if you ever go out door knocking for a candidate, you know, all the evidence suggests that the most impactful thing about canvassing is not that you change the minds of the voters that you try to talk to unless you're doing deep canvassing, but that the canvassers mind gets changed, because by having so many conversations you realize people approach stuff in so many different ways that your way is just one and you know, if you're hoping to move people, you know to vote for your candidate you certainly cannot take people as black and white. But that said, you know, when you think about macro economic or macro factors like climate and how they affect huge numbers of people at once right like inflation right now is a problem, mainly because everybody experiences it every day. The shock of seeing things suddenly more expensive than you were remembering, especially what like you know if you're driving. And you know no need to go fill up your car with gas is like a daily experience. And so, you know the financialization of our economy, which is I think at root, you know the de industrialization and financialization experience which hollowed out a big chunk of the Midwest which is the battleground for politics today in you know who's going to run the country. You know, sending some nice people to go live in in those places, you know may help them rebuild over time. But in the meantime, you know, people are hurting and they're not getting any help. No but the people who come to try to be helpful could be immediately helpful on things that matters to the people on the ground that volunteerism doesn't scale to the level of the problem. So it would be good. But if the federal government said, we're going to go spend, you know, billions of dollars to build new, you know, land grant universities and community colleges and know we're going to place lots of jobs, lots of decent middle class paying jobs centered on things like education and health in these places at the scale of billions and billions of dollars. I mean you look at John Fetterman story, right. He's a he's a really interesting candidate because he comes. I mean, he went to the Kennedy School but you don't know that what you know is he's this sort of working class guy with tattoos down his arms, who with his wife, you know, settled in a the very first steel town in Pennsylvania which is completely hollowed out and struggled really hard to do all the things that you're saying right they bought properties converted them turn them into cafes and art studios and, and, you know, got a little bit of a revival going, and then the biggest employer in town which is a hospital decided that it was pulling out. And he tried, you know, they all fought it and they lost. He has a powerful story, which can resonate with lots of other people who are experiencing this, but he didn't solve the problems of that town. Yes. My, my, you know, it's just sort of the, the little steps that individuals might take as volunteers, you know, going into these places don't scale to the level of the problem. There are several small things. One is, sometimes if the problem didn't get solved because the problems were the huge and intractable community got built and political issues got set aside because you started to trust people who you formally didn't trust that's that's a win right there. And then the, and then the other thing is, let me turn the telescope backwards which is, if we tomorrow if tomorrow, all the churches were to stop sending missionaries and to stop going on mission and to stop feeding people everywhere and taking care of building hospitals or whatever. How would the world be worse, it would be worse. But that's a grass rootsy kind of movement that's happened around the world where there's lots of volunteers meeting problems at scale that governments are failing to address. The let the only place where I would disagree is whether they're meeting them at scale. And by the way, we in our in the goodness of our hearts have decided that it's a matter of federal policy to not allow any, any money that we might give as a government towards these programs to tell people about birth control or right. No, no, no, I think that the missionary thing is completely. There's lots to talk about there, for sure. Yeah, I'm just saying that that they've been forced to scale because of the scale of our problems, not that they're solving the problems but they're working at a scale that I think is astonishing. Yeah, I mean, the fact is that you know you know the vacuum's form and something comes in the you know the fact that chef Andre and World Central Kitchen has been so phenomenally successful is because the Red Cross was going into feeding people but they were doing it like you know the military with MRE's you know it's kind of like you know this is really bad food I'm kind of alive but you know I kind of don't want to be right and he came in and mobilizes the chefs and the people whose restaurants are closed is that let's feed some people right and like doctors without borders. It's a relatively efficient pipeline of money because what would it cost to hire a doctor well the doctors and doctors that borders for the most part and a lot of them are volunteers. They're creating infrastructure for them to be able to do what they do. Anyway, I, I look at it and I say, we're, we're creating other ways to do some of the tasks that were only done by religious institutions and others right through other mechanisms, right. The traditional, you know, delivery systems are beginning to show, you know, they're not as resilient, they're a little bit more fragile than we thought. Dave, they're not regenerative. I think it isn't abundant strategy right it's like if you're asking kind of you're asking for input you're creating a structure where in many, many people can contribute you know that's, that's a good design. But I wanted to just plug the book that if anybody's read it I would love to get their reactions to just to see if I'm reading too much into it but the Carter book on Canes, I just finished, and I do feel like he presents canes as deliberately conducting a world view where he kind of like takes economics and I guess he's brilliant right so it must be like orders of magnitude smarter than the average dude but but it is able to redefine a bunch of the widely accepted economics behavior in the you know early 1900s and say Matt it's not really how it works it really works like this and this and this right and then kind of deliberately through a life course of his life. Get it adopted by at large scale by the United States government right. Dave. I stuck in the back. Yeah, the. Exactly. Exactly. Oh, you did sorry my. Yeah, no that's it that's it that price of peace. And, and so that you know and it gets attacked and you know it ends up being you know kind of almost taken down by McCarthyism right 50 years later so it's kind of fascinating how he and this is like his history so I don't know if it's an accurate history exactly, but the only one I know. And, but he does talk about how like one of the things he did was he kind of redefined things that we thought we do right. And so he kind of challenges you know the gold standard and the role of inflation and what the government's role was in the economy and you know the markets versus the government and you know kind of fundamental things. And I'm kind of wondering what kinds of things we're accepting is true that we need to discard in order to reach this next, you know, world view, you know, and one of the things I'm going after is carbon and net neutrality and carbon and you know stuff and climate that's, we're somehow distracted by this is my view but I don't think that's a big enough idea to actually, you know, change the world world view or anything but, but I'm kind of curious about like what assumptions have we made you know gas prices and inflation and in the amount of economy is that that really doesn't think that's going on or is there something else that's happening that we should be looking for. I love that question Dave. Let me just refund it for a second because I'm a big fan of George Monbio's TEDx talk, the new political story that could change everything. I'll share it in the chat. I think I've mentioned on these calls before I might not have. What he says is, after the after World War two we kind of lived inside of Keynes's story and I just connected that to the Prince of the price of peace, which is the biography you just mentioned so it's connected there but but Keynes's story is disorder afflicts the land caused by the powerful and nefarious forces of the economic elite, which have captured the world's wealth. The hero of the story, the enabling state supported by working class and middle class people will contest that disorder will fight those powerful forces by redistributing wealth and through spending public money on public goods will generate income and jobs restoring harmony to the land. By the way, each of these stories starts with disorder afflicts the land and ends with restoring harmony to the land, which is a joke in his in his talk he does a very good job. He says then, there was a very successful selling off of that story that happens with the neoliberal agenda and there's a little bunch of stuff on neoliberalism, but that story in his writing is disorder afflicts the land caused by the powerful and nefarious forces of the over mighty state, whose collectivizing tendencies crush freedom and individualism and opportunity. The hero of the story the entrepreneur will fight these powerful forces roll back the state and through creating wealth and opportunity restore harmony to the land. And then he says, what we're missing is the next story. Like we're trying to leap to a new story but nobody's got to go to and let me make an offer in software he calls the restoration story. Maybe he could have called it the regeneration story would be just as good. He says disorder afflicts the land caused by the powerful and nefarious forces of people who say there's no such thing as society. And he tells us that our highest purpose in life is to fight like stray dogs over a dustbin heroes of the story. Us, we'll revolt against this disorder we'll fight those nefarious forces by building rich, engaging inclusive and generous communities, and in doing so, we will restore harmony to the land. And that's really helpful to me Jerry I mean I because that's kind of where I've ended up is like the if I had a big idea I think it is it comes back to the stuff you've been doing forever me is that it's that it's the civic layer that sits between government and the market. Exactly, that we are developing and I probably mentioned it back in 2021 in this call. And it's represented by the internet right it's it's it's the that's the infrastructure that allows that civic layer to organize. Not more the internet but yes, to everything before that. Well no I still think the internet is is the infrastructure the fact that parts of the internet have been corrupted or or there's you know there's problems with the internet I don't think makes it. But, but to me and it's then it's also reflected in whatever collective goods we're creating right so the Linux is of the world, or the, the wikipedia of the world those collective goods are still infrastructure assets for civic society. But outside of government control outside of market control, right that it's that layer of development that I think that's the you know that's what happens in the next generation if we're if we're going to win. Jerry you just described why the Mad Max movies work so well, it's because you know the Brownian motion of disorder, right is is a narrative everything's collapsed right. You know, but they don't point to what's going to be next right that it's kind of survive right the alternative narrative which the keyword there is community is, you know the hero of the story is not centralization but networks. You know, potentially being, you know the way that you create structure but it's not, you know, centralized it's not hub and spoke it's not not not right. It's, it's nodal as opposed to command and control. We just don't necessarily have all of the. We don't even have an accounting system that that could handle that well right now, because it was designed for an agrarian society adapted for an industrial society, and it doesn't know how to deal with an intangible, you know, a blended intangible. Right. I got a friend in Woods Hole Mass, who I met years ago, who picked up the thinking of another guy who's died since on rethinking double entry bookkeeping, which goes back to pull lots or something like that. Anyway, well, so double entry is interesting as far as trying to decrease fraud. Let me let me actually finish the story because he's not trying to make double entry bookkeeping better he's trying to create a system where all the exchanges of energy are basically found and registered at each transaction so that instead of having multiple sets of books like where's our inventory right now how much money do we make, and how much pollution did we cause his integrated system would actually kick out those kinds of that kind of information as it goes. Now he's not a coder and I don't think he's written the system, but the ambition was to create a more useful accounting for what's actually happening. I got it. I only point out that I'm going back to art Brock for a second is even that accounting does much better of accounting for things that have gotten down to the point where they're dead. They're dead components that you can actually put into a spreadsheet, even if it's a complex multi dimensional one. It doesn't do a good job of describing a living system. We still don't have one that does a good job of, of that. So now we've sold everything. I don't know I got vertigo just watching you move around. Oh sorry, I can dim my screen. I will do that because I've got to move around a little bit right now. And I've got to move to an appointment medical appointment for Heidi so it was great seeing you folks and Peter. Say something I want to hear your voice for a second before I go. Yes, 1222. Check check good to hear your voice my friends. Cheers. Bye bye now. So, we've got a few minutes left on the call what would we like to talk about next it doesn't have to be apocalyptic. I'm working on something. It's, it's condensing some of the engagements. Geeks that I did recently, and I haven't said much about them in public because they weren't public but little bit by little they are becoming public. I have been doing two interesting engagements as a subcontractor for next works that's a company that you know well, Jerry, because I'm just too small in my one man shop to handle that sort of customers. So one was one client was just the number one on the fortune 100 it's Walmart for their top executive leadership team. They asked us to create. And I'm going to make a lot of cut a lot of corners here but they basically asked for a leadership of sites, but it had to be something special and it had to be around the topic of ambiguity. Okay, chemists will probably come in chemists chemists yeah, we'll probably remember our conversations on Bali, and that sort of things. So a long story short, we took them on an expedition expedition in the city of China in China at the end of 2019. And we included, as I always wanted to do an artist and in this case the artist was a guy called Ozark Henry, who was creating 360 degree soundscapes. So that we could let the content resonate with the audience at another level than the pure cognitive. We're not artists as an entertainment but artists in support of the content that we tried to deliver. So that was one experience and the other one, we closed that project and March so not so long ago was for the bill in the Gates Foundation the financial inclusion team, which is headed up by Costa Perry, who used to be my hiring manager at Swift. So I'm not going to tell you the whole story how we got the deal. But what we did was 100% online expedition. We had six months elapsed, like 15 sessions online, highly facilitated. One part on tech refresh and network refresh and another part on thinking about the future. So, like I think refresh. How can we think differently about the future different than traditional scenario. So what what we in essence So the most of the things there is the part of community because it's the long. It's a six months elapsed period where these people stay together. So both the team and the navigators or the guides that I brought to the table. So we brought people from very different angles to the, to the, to that space, a virtual space that not necessarily knew anything about financial inclusion, but so we had a really stellar people like Benjamin Bratton and and people from the industry regulators. The main output I think was that we created a community, because the people hang together as a tribe and I remember my experiences from in a tribe, creating a tribal for change agents in the financial industry. But it's, it takes time. And that's the first point and the other thing is that, because the target audience were mainly engineers. So we started the, the program the, the first question was always what problem are we trying to solve. And we managed to take them out of that mindset and basically by reframing upwards to reframe the problem of a poor person in Tanzania who is trying to get access to financial services to frame that upwards to something and women entrepreneurs network. That's working in multiple territories and so those two projects. So I basically took all that's learning, including what I did for in a tribe, and I'm building a project that is the working title is the scaffold, which is an scaffold for something. It's a scaffold for a school and possibly a foundation for the never normal where we are going, which is intended to be 100% online, which is powered by a digital residency platform where we invite specifically for client clients, a group of navigators that can enter those conversations. So it's all about conversations, not about pitching. And it's with a lot of exercises, even online with people who are very advanced in things like Miro boards that are without just having posted stick sort of mechanics. And also a digital asset sharing platform which probably goes into the direction of what Jerry is dreaming of this memory of what happened during those six months. So the plan is to get a first client signed by October of this year and start executing on that project, hopefully by the end of the year. So one client. And I'm looking for people who want to join this effort whether as an advisor, or as a navigator, or in other ways. And it's part of the, it evolved a lot in the, it's part of Peter van studios, which in the end is, it's three studios. Studio one is the art studio studio two is the intervention studio and studio three is the scaffold. And I've been assisted by a guy who comes from the contemporary art scene with a with helping artists professionalize their practice. He helped me identifying a number of methods, dynamics and outcomes that surprise surprise apply to the three studios. So, and these are things like collision and layering, and that sort of things which I do in my artwork but I also do it when I'm composing these expeditions, and I'm using on purpose the word come composing. I'm the conductor of the orchestra and I'm writing the, I'm writing the script of the of the piece. These are dynamics like, and maybe the words are not well chosen, but dynamics like refraining and outcomes like provocations transformations and collaborations about outcomes. I'm working on a new websites, which will be probably not a sort of website that you expect so it will be a bit of artistic. Hopefully making people curious. And it will include those three studios. And there were also a couple of things that I wanted to share maybe for next call that I think irrelevant to everything that was discussed today and in my piece. There is to think that it's probably quite known for most of you was a fabulous series of SS that he did on a topic of more craft. It's absolutely fantastic more craft and more craft L O R E craft. I don't know exactly what he used but he said marketing is a way for organizations to convince or let other people buy in into what they offer. Yeah. But Lord craft is how people make sense inside organization of their own psyches. It's absolutely fascinating. He has a second set series of SS under the title of the graph minds, which is playing on the topic of like the board but the board in a very positive way. So not for creating dystopian scenarios but for utopian. And that's what I'm describing for the shared memory project that I'm on exactly that. And my post is on my list of people and things to talk to about that. Yeah. And then there is a fantastic book by James bridal ways of being that may answer some of the questions of David. So on your question what are what what are we missing or what perspectives are we missing or so he is basically his book is all about. And I'm probably making a lot of shortcuts get it's about non human intelligence. So he's starting with AI as artificial intelligence line to trying to mimic or do better than humans but maybe humans is not the right reference point. So we should look at other intelligences like a lot of them in nature. Also the difference in time. So if you start having a perspective where you look at how plants grow over a season. I have another perspective in the short term. So it's a fascinating book it's a very very well researched. I highly recommend it and the last pointer I would like to make is to a young lady. Herb tickle. P H O E B E. Is that's how they pronounce it and be nice. You need to go Phoebe. Yeah, tickles. P I C K E. Oh, she's in your memory. Right. Yep. And she's working on a thing called moral imaginations. Don't have that. And there is a wonderful video also going with with people on a train. And she's looking for people to join her on the rides. Super interesting. Yeah, she says she's really really, I mean, she's like a she has a she's from, I think she's from London. She has a very British accent English accent. She has something poetic in what she's doing that I am very attracted to, to that dimension. But moral imagination, and it's all also about how you create communities and how you do that flow value in those communities and these flow generations it's very very interesting. That's it. Peter is too bad you've been doing nothing. It's like an office full time. Yeah. I have a feeling that some of the things that we've been talking about on this call 30 years down the road will be the new religions or the new platforms or the new mean that caught fire and everybody was suddenly like oriented around and it's like okay good well we'll just do this. Right. And I don't mean everybody, because that's impossible you always have a minority but if you have 15% of a population apparently you can tip things. If you have just a gentle man or gentle majority you can actually sort of run democracy. Apparently you can run democracy with a substantial minority as well. If you buy the right instruments of in the process, but. So, so, Dave all you need to do is like like meld the regenerative platform into the Peter studio scaffold. I'm happy to contribute the big fungus and other ideas that I've got along the way. I was like, what I love the, the different ways of thinking thing is like this kind of like slowly worked in my way into my mind and, and you know so the first one that the regeneration folks go to is biomimicry I think like you know where we learn from living systems. And, and like we just the other day somebody we were kind of asking like well what can we learn about governance by from biomimicry. And there must be all kinds of like decision making processes for, you know, who gets allocated allocation of resources and I don't know, you know, and, and I don't know, I don't even know who's asking that question about, you know, but it seems like an interesting question and there must be all kinds of insight. So much to look into. Then there's something interesting but probably at the more local scale. And I'm not sure it will happen. So there's in the city of Ghent. There is something called the winter circus, which is actually a stone built arena for circus that was used as a circus. So with elephants and so on. And some guy bought the whole thing and he basically used this as his exhibition room for his collection of all times. And then it was empty. And now basically the city of Ghent has has refurbished the whole thing. So what they what is called in architecture Costco so they still have to do the interiors but the windows are in and everything is clean. And so there is a consortium that is now going to get a license to do the exploitation of this winter circus with a license and exploitation license of 75 years. I mean, talking about long term. It's a very interesting consortium, including universities and art schools and engineers and entrepreneurs that is putting up the money to make this course. It's a public private setting. What are the ideas that they make of this thing. I mean, they have some some ideas about like it's like an MIT media, something that they want to build but I think it's both both a place where they can have offices, they can rent but the whole idea is not to make an office space or like full of retail and restaurants. It really has to become a hotspot for the citizens of Ghent to come in contact with new new ways of thinking new developments new technologies new. There's a huge arena circular arena that apparently they're going to get companies like Barco who is a Flemish company to put very interesting projection system so you can create immersive experiences in this place in this open arena and have some workouts, there are fantastic rooms in there where you could do open open, but is it the sort of thing that you did Jerry open open open groups, open space, open spaces or highly facilitated things like the scaffolds could be part of that. It's very interesting that the city of Ghent, they want to create because the circus will have for entries, basically north, south, west and east, so people will be able to walk through this thing will be open all day, except the offices that are in there in the companies, but all sort of stuff is going to happen and they're looking for curators and sort of things to make the place exciting. And for the, not only for the city and for the its image internationally but also for the citizen of Ghent, which is a rare type of animal, by the way. Peter you know the next works folks right. Yes. Do you know if they're involved in this at all, because they're in Ghent. Peter Hinson is okay cool fabulous. Yeah, but it is not next works but it's true Peter Hinson that I got knowledge of this project. Oh, and he just did a really nice interview of me on his podcast so. Yes, so he he is one of the members of the consortium, this is not public right so. Okay. Don't worry about the call in my brain, basically. The consortium is basically led by the local Chamber of Commerce, and they have grouped around them a whole set of really really interesting people entrepreneurs etc and Peter is one of them. So it's clear that they will get the contract, because it's an official procedure. And so, and made it. There were initially two to consortia. But one consortium basically dropped the ball. So there's only one candidate to run it so they have to go through the official procedure and and may they indicated that that consortium is the preferred partner to continue working with it. And so nor that will take some time but I think that will happen. And they have already funds committed by all the stakeholders to make it happen. But who is part of the consortium is not public. Which seems a little strange but there you are. Well, there will be a press moment this week, there will be a press moment this week, because there were some. Some articles in local press that were not representing the whole thing correctly. And so they're going to have a formal press moment where they will probably announce which part of that, that whole thing so that everybody knows there is no secret but cool. They want to do it the property from a communication point of view. It makes me think also maybe more broadly. What's a really good arrangement for cities to revitalize themselves. In Portland, there's a family called McMenamins. There are a couple brothers and a sister and years ago they started buying sort of dilapidated properties including churches and other sorts of things and then refurbishing them and turning them into saloons bars restaurants hotels theaters, other kinds of stuff. And they're brilliant. I think they have 83 properties in the Pacific Northwest, you can get a McMenamins passport and you get it stamped when you go to places and then each place has two little hidden things you have to find. It's kind of cute. There's an elementary school that they took over this just south of the airport here in PDS called the Kennedy School not named after John F Kennedy, where at the end of our first visit to that school, April and I look at each other and said, Wow, this is a different city we could maybe live here. And the Kennedy School has two restaurants a spa bowling alley a movie theater to bars, a hotel and I'm forgetting something else, all tucked away, you know, in one space they also have a place and entertainment venue just outside of town. 20 minutes east of the airport called Edgefield which used to be the poor farm for Portland, which means when you found indigent people or whatever you sent them out to the poor farm where they could work and eat and get shelter. I think that's missing in society right now in different ways, in really crucial ways, but it fell into disuse and then McMenamins bought it up and refurbished it there they have a vineyard. It's a small multiple restaurant and a huge performance outdoor performance venue with a big stage and a big sloping long that's just gorgeous. So we also bringing it now for David on how to regenerate cities. Right. I mean we can use the word everywhere so it works great that way. Peter, I don't know or any of us. The dear friend of mine taken over as ED at the Berkman Center at Harvard, and they're kind of have an open agenda and so if we had cool ideas, you know, we could, we could contribute them. And I think what they really miss is like old white guys, you know, really what they want but they are exactly. But anyway, she I think would be receptive. Yeah, yeah, she's like old, you know, grad school classmate and dear friend, and, you know, she's pretty open to listening to stuff and we had things to pitch kind of I think and I don't know, I don't know what to do with pitch, but it's an interesting channel on it. It's always been one of my favorite places but it's kind of gone into this array, I think. Cool. I just turned around and have to group is lost left. Sorry. The time is the time is ticked. It is our we're all turning into pumpkins. Peter, thank you for sharing all that I have I now have a whole bunch of tabs open to read and things to learn about. Yeah, it's wonderful stuff. Yeah, it's always brilliant to learn about somebody repurposing a space in creative ways to try to rebuild community and tackle. Another person I want to highlight. That is also has accepted to become an advisor for this scaffolding. It's Andrea. Good job. Good job. Young brilliant woman originally Romanian but has studied in US and it's now working in Germany. She's working on VR with a really, really solid philosophical background. Yeah, so I think in my latest delicacies, I referred to her to a recent talk that she did. And the record to Cody. Good. So the idea is new may not and you and he and a new may not dot be from Germany be. And so the idea is that we use VR in this scaffolding. To not to make replicas of reality, but to create other spaces where other behaviors are possible that are not possible in reality. For example, alter your motor cortex to see what happens if you start playing around with that. So if you are used to act as an octopus with eight arms and when you once you get that knowledge internalized and if you then go back with that knowledge into the real world. What, what can you do with that. You probably get if you would apply this to the winter circus. Yeah. It could be or not. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's very solid solar plant as well. But she has a really solid philosophical foundation. She's wonderful. She, she could entertain you a session of yours. I haven't asked her if she would be interested, but she's absolutely fascinating. And what's her talk that I put in my latest delicacies of over the weekends. I'm not multitasking sort of person. I can't do chat and and and. And then the other person is also part of the scaffold advisory team. It's a Stephanie Sherman. sh e r m a n. Sharon. And amongst many other things she is the course director of the master of narrative environments at the St. Martin's school art school in London, which is part of the University of Arts in London. And she's doing a PhD with Benjamin Bretton in San Diego. Wow. Benjamin Bretton who was part of the other engagement they talk about earlier. Yeah, so yeah. Wow. Yeah, very cool. So maybe next call we massage these things and see how they fit or understand them a little better or something like that because Peter you have a great nose for for interesting new ventures and people like this. And we've missed you. And so let's see if we can help remix and add some spices to this to you. It's good. Anything else for now. Dave you want to jump in one last totally random things like we're going through we're moving right we're leaving we're leaving Oakland. Oh, I didn't know that we're going. Yeah, we don't know. We're good. We're gonna hop in a car and drive for a few minutes. Wow. Okay, we're no fixed address. So you're doing brand life for a while. Exactly. Exactly. So it'll be in a sedan sedan life, much more, many more Airbnbs and sedan life. But I'm going through all papers and stuff like that and one of the things I found was the attendee list for the 2002 online community summit. Oh, looks like done a 40 or 50 people. And I was kind of there ought to be like, you know, it seems like you and Kevin Jones and I would be great. Well, that's kind of I was kind of tempted to like, I don't know, stick that list somewhere like on a LinkedIn chat or something like that. I don't know if there's any if you have any thoughts or if it's if it's one or not, but I don't know. You could easily create an OCS LinkedIn group, invite everybody to it and see who shows up and if anybody wants to talk. Yeah, okay. So I was thinking was something a lightweight, you know, just a casual invitation. Sounds great sounds like fun. You might want to just photocopy the sheet and post it, you know, post it on your LinkedIn feed or something like that or I don't know just, you know, share it back up. Okay, all right, I might do I might do that then so yeah. And is casual around I mean, you know, yeah, absolutely. I mean actually go have lunch with him. Oh, that's hilarious. Yeah. All right. Well, great, wonderful, wonderful comment. Really rich stuff. My brain is full and so is my browser. Thank you. Bye guys.