 Okay, welcome back. It is still Wednesday and this is General Housing and Military Affairs and we are starting testimony this afternoon on H96 which is our bill that proposes an act relating to creating a Truth and Reconciliation Commission Development Task Force. And I have re-invited Representative Colston, one of the co-sponsors of the bill, to give us a rundown of a report that was done for the Social Equity Caucus by a committee within the Social Equity Caucus that was, I believe, approved by the state through the same process. But I just wanted to get this background on how they formulated a committee that was doing some pretty foundational work for the Social Equity Caucus, which is similar to how I'm viewing what this committee would be doing in terms of forming a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. And so the question in front of us is what is the best way to do this and to make sure that we're not just getting the format down, but also to be as inclusive as we can in terms of getting the voices on how this committee should be formed, a group of people who will come together in proposal to form the commission that would then do some incredibly hard work in the coming years. So Representative Colston, welcome. We also have Amanda Garces from the Vermont Human Rights Commission with us, and she'll join us when she's after Representative Colston. So welcome. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And good afternoon, committee. For the record, I'm Representative Colston from Waduski, and I'd be happy to explain our process for selecting the Social Equity Caucus work group. So when we went about this process, and the goal of the work group was to formulate policy recommendations with regards to achieving social and racial equity in our billmaking process, we really wanted to go after different voices instead of the usual suspects. There's probably a handful of BIPOC that get called on quite often to come before various committees and to share their testimony. So in order to do that, we mean the leadership of the Social Equity Caucus asked several people to come together, and some of them were legislators, former legislator Kaia Morris, Senator Keisha Ram, Representative Emily Kornheiser, Amanda Garces. There may be another person or so that I left out, but there was a small team that came together and put their heads together to look around the state and who might be new in different voices that have a lived experience with racial and social inequity to formulate this work group. So we had an interview process, there was a selection process, and we selected 14 Vermonters, many of whom were BIPOC, as well as those representing voices from the mental health community. In terms of disparities along the lines of race and also interaction with law enforcement, those voices were the ones that we really wanted to hear from. So with those 14 Vermonters, it was decided that the legislature, and there were six of us, two from the Senate and four from the House, we would be on the work group, but we were there primarily to observe, to listen, and to engage in conversation, but we didn't have voting power. The voting power remained with the 14 members. We decided on a consensus process, which I think worked very well, and I was asked to be the co-chair with one of the members of the 14 Vermonters who served as co-chair. So we worked together to work through the process. We had a total of eight meetings and it was a little bumpy in the beginning. We were succumbed to white supremacy culture and trying to do too much with too little time, so we regrouped and realized we didn't want to keep replicating the same process we're all caught up in, and we didn't have some really deep, meaningful debate about the kind of policy recommendation that would be really meaningful and appropriate as we do our work as legislators. So that in a sense was the process. I think it worked well, and even given that we didn't have voting power as legislators, I still think our role was an important one in supporting and engaging the workgroup. So that's in essence how that all came about, and then we had a final meeting to weigh in on the proposed report and then it was a wrap. With the group that large, I guess I'm going to ask a question just a slightly different one, but with a group that large, regardless of the individual meetings, I mean I think we always think, oh my goodness, this many people in a room together is is going to be hard, but this group also did subcommittee work, did it not? Yes, and I failed to mention we were very fortunate to be able to have an intern who we paid, and we actually paid all of the 14 members. We paid them a very generous stipend for their time, and of course it was all done through Zoom, but the intern that we had was really the nuts and bolts of all the logistics for the workgroup. All the communications, getting out materials ahead of the game, following up with people, providing that kind of support, I think that was invaluable for the process, and that allowed us to, and then we typically worked in groups within the two-hour meeting, so we would break off and do specific work and come back, but by all means we really strive to use a consensus model to make part of final decisions. And you were able to pay people for their time, is that different than what we do for the state? It is, because we saw a grant through the Vermont Community Foundation, which allowed us to provide to each of the 14 members $180 per meeting, and of course that would cover some of the time they would need pre-meeting to be prepared, but that was the model that we went after. So it wasn't done through the state process of a $50 per diem for meetings. Oh, but the committee was set, was the committee set up through Statute again, or is this, or was this something that the, so this is what the caucus did for itself? Correct. Right. Okay. And I might add, Vermont Community Foundation was very excited about this effort, and they were more than willing to provide the support that we requested. And given that I'm on their board, I know this is an area they want to continue growing and supporting the work. Okay. It sounds to me like the intern operated as if the way that a legislative council would work for us using that, just using the parallel to state commissions. Was a focus on logistics and making sure everybody knew where they were going, what they were doing, and had their materials that they needed. With the 14 people who were, you know, like you said, not the usual suspects, correct. I mean, you've been, you've been on a thousand boards and a thousand committees and how did you feel it went? I mean, I know you're very positive about it, but in terms of folks who, can I make an assumption that some of the people who were on the board, this was the first time they were sitting on something like this? Possibly for a few. Yeah, possibly for a few, but I majority, I think, have been involved with this issue and in various ways. So they weren't, they certainly weren't intimidated. Right. That's, I mean, this is, because this is again, the goal of this particular task force is specific, right? It's very specific and, you know, so getting folks who, again, I think we're still trying to figure out, you know, we're really just beginning that conversation about the, you know, who should be on this board. I mean, and who, you know, is it a baker? Is it a lawyer? Is it a doctor? Or is it, or is it, you know, people who, again, will break the mold a little bit? And I think thinking out of the box in terms of what is your selection process is going to be an important one to consider. Because typically, when we have these working groups, you have the same players who make this, the judgment call on who belongs on the committee or the commission. And we wanted to disrupt that. So that's why I think we got these really powerful new voices, because we weren't just going after the, the same bush and shaking it and coming up with the same people. Questions for Representative Coulson. Representative Parsons, then Bloomley. Thank you, Chair. I was just curious, Representative Coulson, you had said in one of the stumbling blocks in the beginning was, forgive me if I'm wrong here, said something like succumbing to white supremacy culture. I didn't know if you could just expand, like expand. Sure. Yeah, it's, you know, it's something that we're all caught up in, in terms of how we go about our work, where I think we tend to have very ambitious agendas, trying to push in too much work, not enough time for process and interaction and interchange. I think that was our misstep coming out of the blocks, but we quickly pivoted and reconsidered how we would put together our agendas so that people aren't pressed for time and perfection and saying the right thing and using, you know, various words and all these traits of white supremacy culture that we just blindly fall into. So we wanted to make sure that we were clearly coming at this from a different perspective and approach to really get people's best thinking and to have the space for people to really share, you know, why they believe we should go this way or that way. Okay. Thank you. Representative Bloomly. Yes. Hello, Representative Colston. I'm wondering a little about, you know, so this is a short form bill, right? And I'm very aware that this committee is all white. And I am wondering, you know, what, if we step back and we want to look at truth and reconciliation as a process, a state process, what is the best way to move that forward? And for the, I mean, what, I guess I'm asking what can a legislature do and should do and what is not the legislature's role? Is that clear? Yeah. I guess my first reaction is to imagine voices on this task force that will shape whatever this recommendation will be are going to be coming from the potential groups that will take advantage of this process who have experienced the oppression of our systems. So in that sense, how do we do this in a different way? So we're not calling on the governor and the speaker and the senate protent and all the others who typically populate these bodies. So that for me would be a real game changer in coming up with a totally different approach and how do we think through what this process might look like. And, you know, as far as BIPOC and Vermonters from the mental health community, there are certainly people out there who have those specific skills that you might benefit from in a body like this, whether they're, you know, organizational types or legal voices and on and on. So it's really about how does the legislature reach out to a number of organizations that are on the ground in our state doing this work and bring them into the fold to help us figure this out? Like who is going to make up this task force? I think that's an opportunity to truly do something different than to, you know, do our usual process of how we populate these groups. I guess, can I just ask a follow-up question? Yes. Thank you. So the social equity caucus work group, it sounded as if, I mean, that group wasn't, there weren't, there wasn't a list of names that were, I mean, this wasn't even in legislation, right? Correct. He says that this is a report to recommend policy. Okay. So, you know, I'm, what I'm, I guess what I'm trying to understand is, is it this committee's responsibility to identify people? Or is it this committee's responsibility simply to provide enabling legislation for a working group? And I, this, you know, may reflect my newness, but I'm trying, it sounds like the process you had in choosing folks was an organic one, one that was iterative and not, not, you know, stipulated. Correct. By any group of people. Yes. And, and I think there is potential strong partnership with the social equity caucus to, to help sort this out. I know from our last planning team meeting, we talked about compiling a list, a statewide list of all of the organizations that are doing work with regards to social equity, racial equity, racial justice. So, so this can become a resource for committees, committee chairs to, to be able to look at various organizations, begin to have a relationship with this or that director and ask for recommendations of people that we need to have weigh in on this or that bill. So, so there is in the process now of this comprehensive list of these potential members who could populate a task force like this, or other efforts that we're doing along the lines of social injustice. Thank you. Representative Kalaki. Thank you. And, and Hal, welcome to the committee. Welcome back. And as you know, I've been a member of the social equity caucus now for two years and benefit tremendously. And I'm, I'm, I'm daunted and caught by crossover and how this committee takes our short form bill here that I completely endorse. And we make that into recommendations of people to then build out this Truth and Reconciliation Commission. And so I feel like the social equity caucus has done a lot of work on this. And we really, I need more input from the, maybe your leadership of the social equity caucus about how to make this a full bill. Because otherwise what you're asking us to do is exactly the white supremacy culture thing of, hurry up, we got to do this. And so I feel a little ill-equipped to do this in a week without really substantial input. So, you know, so I need your help on that. Like, how do I, how does that work? Well, my question would be, how much can you draw from your previous bill, excuse the background noise, that may have some similarities or some pieces that you can, you can pull from. That's what I thought originally when we were going through the short form process. Well, if, if I could maybe bring, bring our previous bill to the social equity caucus and have a full input session about what people think about it, that would actually be very helpful to me to know how to do this. So it's, it's not just because, you know, or I'd like to tip for you and, and, you know, Ryan Sheen is, he's in the room with us right now, I think as well. And, you know, the cosponsors are terrific people and you've done a lot of thinking about this. And so I think it'd be helpful if we heard from you all about what you thought about that structure and if it's appropriate, inappropriate, ill-equipped, Mrs. DeMark for us then to kind of create policy that I would think would be more informed. So, Representative Triano. Thank you, Chair Steven. So it seems to me that this in part came as a result of our eugenics resolution that's on the floor in part and trying to follow up with some meaningful activities and discussions that would take place regarding social and justice and equity. But I'm not hearing that those who are impacted the most by the eugenics bill have been included in this. For instance, are we reaching out to our Native American, our Indigenous people community? Are we reaching out to the French Canadian community? Are we reaching out to the mental health community? All who are impacted by this eugenics bill, which we're trying to, seems to me we're trying to piece together here. So is there an intent to do that? How is that where we're going with this in part? I mean, I'm not expecting this to go only in that direction. I know that we're going in numerous directions because there are that many directions to go. But I'm just curious as to whether that has been in the discussion and or as to whether or not it is the intent to formulate that or to bring those folks into this. Well, I just want to just make it clear for the record. The reason why I came up with this bill was to begin to lay the groundwork for our state to understand the harm that has been experienced through systemic racism by all, by all Vermonters. Because I really believe that not too far down the road, we're going to have to be wrestling with reparations. We're going to be wrestling with specific strategies to dismantle systemic racism, especially in our state government. And I truly believe we can't get there unless people understand why, why this is important. And that's what a truth of reconciliation process does. It allows people to share their stories in person, their pain. It's an opportunity for people in the dominant culture to begin to shift their their beliefs and understandings, to shift their attitude. Because if we were trying to come up with this this approach of let's get reparations done, let's start dismantling racism, people are like throwing up their arms like, I thought we took care of this back in the 60s and we have it. So I think it's an important foundational approach for getting people on the same page and hopefully repairing broken relationships and begin to have these tougher conversations about reparations. I'm just asking if it will be all inclusive. I mean, I think that that is a fair question that enlarges, as I say, the outlook of what this committee may take up or this commission may take up. That is my hope. Because if we have an umbrella that everyone can find space under, whether or not you're wanting to deal with, you know, chattel slavery or eugenics or the oppression that experienced by our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, you know, any group that that has the need to go through this process, this would be a structure that they can tap into. Okay, that's that's what I was looking for. Thank you. And I think before we get to Amanda, I just want to address a couple of things, at least the way the way that I've seen this in the past, which does not mean I just want to be clear that does not mean that's the way we're going to be moving forward in the future. But the the interesting thing about this conversation is is on one hand, the committee that Representative Colson's talking about was done outside of the strictures of of our our rules, which are which is part of the system. There's no question, it is what we have to work with and that the power that's imbued in us to do something or to not do something is is inherent in this conversation. So there's that balanced with how do you try to get it so that you have the most inclusive? I think every committee that you try to form, or in this case, a task force, we were last year, we were very sensitive or tried to be very sensitive as to what how inclusive that would be. And again, we can go back to what we did last year in the committee bill and and view it as a start. And just to just look at as as Representative Colson said, this is this is that there may already be a list in place that has ideas and thoughts that we took testimony on last year. But we have to have it again this year. And we have to be inclusive of the social equity caucus or other people who want to come up and share their ideas with that. So is it out of whole cloth? Not quite, but that, you know, our thinking last year may not be the thinking that we need to apply to it this year. So that's, I think, you know, in, you know, we'll make sure that that and I think it was posted last time Damian came in, you know, to talk about what that list looked like. And I think when we left last year at this time, we knew it wasn't complete yet. And so that work hadn't been finished of what we were going to offer last year. So again, moving forward with being able to say, well, we've done some work on it, but also with the proviso sort of with saying that it may not have been complete. And it needs to be the work needs to be double checked and worked on. With that, I just like to Amanda, are you here now? Looks very sunny where you are. Funny. I wish. Right. Anyway, it looks like you're so you've been listening. Yes. And, and I guess, you know, what we'd like to start talking about now is starting with the Human Rights Commission and also, you know, eventually with with all of the resources we can find to make sure that the list A list is comprehensive. And perhaps you might have some advice for us on how to make it so. Great. Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you, Representative Wilson for such a beautiful conversation. I just want to introduce myself as my first time in this committee this year. So my name is Amanda Garces. I am the Director of Policy Education and Outreach with the Vermont Human Rights Commission. And our mission as an agency is to promote full civil rights in Vermont. Our commission protects people from all of all discrimination in housing, state government employment, and places of public accommodation. It enforces this anti immigration, anti discrimination laws through investigations, conciliation and litigation. My job has been around for only a year. And I do a lot of the education and community outreach, as well as some of the policy work with our Executive Director, Boryang. And we provide training in a lot of the issues that you are hearing from today. We are the protected categories that we have are women, children, Black folks, other people of color, new Americans, persons with disabilities, and members from our LGBTQA plus community. So I am here kind of thinking about that, all of that. I, we fully endorse a, you know, a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to continue the, to move our state in the correct direction. We, you know, we have been doing a lot of work. I think we need to reckon to the past of our state and change to be able to transform our system. So I, I just want to say that as someone who comes from Latin America that has a really rich history on Truth and Reconciliation Commissions, what, what that does for people is really, is really healing. And you know, so I think, you know, people have the right for the Truth. I think in this state and as well as Representative Colson was explaining a little bit of the process for that workforce. I keep thinking back of this racial harassment in public schools report that was done 20 years ago. That was just a set of community conversations that, you know, really brought some of, some of those things from community members of color. That report says, you know, racism in school, in schools is pervasive. And I think that, you know, there hasn't been really a more explicit conversation about how to transform that system in a way that's going to heal people. There's a lot of trauma that we carry from the experiences that we leave, whether we are engaging in local government or in our education system or just by simple fact, going to get an apartment at a, you know, the town. So I think that all of those things is that people should really be aware of what is happening. You know, there's this move on around like, how do we include the Truth from the people that have been marginalized from the people that have been affected by the not only policies, but just our day-to-day life in Vermont. And the Social Equity Caucus workbook was able to just like bring voices that necessarily are not into the politics of these conversations, but that, you know, are impacted by their daily life. So I think that, you know, just as a person who did a lot of work with Guatemala and the, now with the Human Rights, with the Reconciliation Commission, but the learnings that they did, where they develop a lot of materials and education, where a lot of people were able to be part of understanding those pains that were caused. I think that that is like something that, it's not just the truth that happens, it's just not what the impact that it had on the people, but the afterwards. How do we bring this about an education piece to it and raise awareness? I think this is an integral part of the conversation on the white supremacy culture in our state and putting resources. I will hate to see a commission doing a lot of work to do a report that sits on a shelf, as we have seen many of the reports that have been done. So like what are just the question of what we will do next with the recommendations that are done. I will advocate to move from the restorative justice to a more transformative justice conversation that we have experts that are thinking in transformative justice, which is very different. In my opinion, the restorative justice is about the restoring to the individual, the transforming is like transforming the system. And then there are a lot of groups that have a stake at this. We're talking about the LGBTQI community, disability rights community. So I kind of like have that be as representative Colson say an umbrella for people to like really be like, this is how we move together. And to end that there should be a really important piece, which is mental health consultants that will take part of this, because we know that these are traumatic experiences for some people. And the process really needs to be done right to be able to have the best of it. I think that is what I have. I think that, you know, that again, the process we've learned from Act one, what he took to get 11 members from BIPOC communities in there to be part of that process. And as the chair of that committee, it's the experiences is so invaluable for the work that we're doing. So if we need, I think we need to move in that direction is really important. That's what I have. Okay, thank you. And I see that representative Christie has joined us. Welcome, coach. Amanda, the notion of getting to a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, of course, is this task force. You know, so there's two separate, there's two separate discussions going on here to a degree as there as there should be, which is the beginning of like, well, what should it look like? What should the Truth and Reconciliation Commission look like? Which I think would be the charge of this task force. And what the makeup of that task force would be. And so what kind of, I mean, I kind of, I kind of was very broad in saying like, what kind of thinkers do we need on that, on this task force to be able to get us to a bill that proposes a Truth and Reconciliation Commission that has all of those pieces to it? I think the impacted community should be the task force, right? That's who decides how the process will be beneficial to all. I think so that if you had, this is who will be impacted, which we talked a little bit about, then that should be the people. And then you have a few of those people who are happened to also be experts, whether it's in transforming justice or mental health professionals that can support that process. And we do have it all in Vermont. There's just that not part, but we do have a lot of people with an extremely, you know, with a lot of abilities that can help as a team create something really impactful. So, yes, the creation of the task force should be by people of color, by people from the different marginalized communities that we spoke of, in my opinion. Okay. And Damien, are you with us? I am. Corporately. How are you? I am forgetting to take my lens cap off. I'm good. I've been taking notes on the conversation and listening in. So, can we take a minute? Do you have the committee bill from last year? Is it on our website or do you have it handy? I don't have it handy, but if you give me a moment, I can pull it up. And Ron may have it more readily available on the website. Just not on our website right now. Sure. I'm just, I'm switching over there right now. I can't remember what day you were here last, so. See it posted today, but let me go ahead and pull it up. It's Thursday the 18th. Great. I'm going to pull it up right now. There we go. Let me just share. Ron, could you make me a co-host so I can share my screen? Can everybody see this? Yeah. Okay, great. Would you like me to go down to the members that were being discussed when we left off last year? Yes. Just to have a list, just so that the committee knows where we were last year and where we would need to go this year in order to fulfill what at least we think as a committee would be the way to go about populating a committee like this. And this is actually an earlier draft of the bill that I discussed the last time. Just a second here. I'm going to stop the share for just a second and just see. Do you want me to send you the link to the newest? No, that's okay. I think I can find it here on my laptop. I'm just pulling it up. Sorry for the delay. There we go. It is opening up right now. Sorry. Everything is a little bit slower with the secure portal to the state house from my house here. So add in the VPN to Vermont Internet Speeds. Okay, so let me share again. Here we go. Okay, so this is where we left off last year on March 11th. We had just, the bill had started off looking at just eugenically inspired sterilizations and then had moved to add institutionalization, segregation, discrimination, historic bias, and systemic racism. And then there was an alternative phrasing of it there. And then the membership of the committee had been set up to include a member of a Native American tribe or recognized tribe. Four members, one from each of the recognized tribes appointed by the leadership of their tribe. So the first member was appointed by the Commission on Native American Affairs. The next four were each appointed by their tribes. An individual with a developmental disability. An individual with a psychiatric disability. One to three individuals who have a disability or advocate for disabled vermonters appointed by the Developmental Disability Council Center for Independent Living and Coalition for Disability Rights were the three groups being discussed. An individual with experience working to implement racial justice reforms or representing communities of color in Vermont appointed by the Racial Equity Advisory Panel. A member of the French Canadian community appointed by the Vermont French Canadian Society. An individual with expertise in the protection of human rights and prevention of discrimination appointed by the Human Rights Commission. An individual with expertise in the treatment of psychological trauma within distinct communities and groups. Appointed by the Senate's Committee on Committees. A historian with expertise in the history of the Gen X movement appointed by the governor. An individual with expertise in restorative justice appointed by the speaker. And then three representatives of major civil society organizations that have historically championed the cause of preparatory justice jointly appointed by the speaker and the Committee on Committees from a list of candidates prepared by the Social Justice Caucus of the General Assembly. So those were the, let me think here, roughly 17 to 20 members that were being discussed as of last year. And I need to emphasize too that this was discussion that was very much in progress when we left off for those of you who weren't on the committee, which is why so much of that is in brackets or highlighted in yellow. So, and it definitely wasn't a finished product when we left off last year. And so, coach, do you want to weigh in at this point? Just on, I mean, we've talked to Representative Coulson pretty. And we just had Amanda, as you came in right during the time Amanda was started testifying. But I wanted to give you the opportunity to share what your views on the goals of the commission would be. And now with this, with a review of last year's notes, you know, just where you, where your thinking has been on this. Well, I would have to say, for the record, Representative Kevin coach Christie from Hartford, also co-chair of the Social Equity Caucus of the Vermont legislature. And as a as a co-sponsor of the of the bill, without listening to the presentations of my my colleagues and partners and friends, such as Amanda and Hal and Brian, one of the things that we found out as a working group last year was eliciting emerging voices around the state was critical to the work that we were trying to achieve, which was to get a better understanding of affected for monitors on topics, especially important to them. It looks like the construction of your commission that you were working on last year was designed similarly. It wasn't designed with a heavy load of legislators. It was designed to include all those folks. Because that's where we're going to get our answers. You know, we we don't have them. You know, let's go to the experts. Let's go to the people with lived experience. You know, I think that is that's the key. You know, all of us, you know, how many times have we invited, you know, people from the recovery community or people from the housing community that are experiencing homelessness, you know, that's where we get, you know, our details from. That's where we get that real rich, crisp experience. So by constructing a commission of people who are expert in that area, because of that experience, we're going to get to where we want to go. And that's what I'm sensing, you know, is a common denominator, both in what we've done, you know, with the caucus, the work that Representative Coulson's talking about, the work that the Act One Committee did, it's all about those emerging voices. So I guess that's all I'd like to add. It seems we're on the right path. If we continue in this direction, I think we'll get to where we want to go. Thank you. Questions for any of our witnesses? Representative Kalaki. Hello, Coach. Representative Christie, welcome. Hi, how are you? Good. I shared a little of my timing anxiety with Representative Coulson earlier before you were in. And what I would appreciate is you look at that structure that we've been working on, because that's, you know, not a final structure, but it's a beginning structure for us. But we do have the issue of crossover. So, you know, as you and Representative Coulson look at that, I really would appreciate who's missing or what kinds of voices are not included in this list, because, you know, to make crossover, we have to move quickly. And, you know, I can, if there's time on the social equity caucus next week or something, I can, you know, members of our committee can join, you know, and we want the right feedback, because we want to set this up right. This is a really essential reckoning for our state. And so, you know, we want to, in the two weeks we have, I think I really want to benefit from all the work the social equity caucus has done and, you know, all the co-sponsors of this have done. And I, in full support, I just want to make sure we can get it as best as we can. So... Well, well, in response to your question, I think it isn't a question of speed, because we found that out already. Last session, when you overemphasize the speed, sometimes we lose sight of what our goal is. So, what I'd suggest is, we have some very good models. The structure that you've started with is a good skeleton. The Act One group is another parallel model. The group that Representative Colston chaired on behalf of our social equity caucus, which was the working group, was made up of 14 emerging voices from throughout the state that came from a selected group of about 25, 30 people who we hadn't even heard of a number of them. But now we have a working group of new people. And that's even getting bigger, you know, as we speak. So, I think if we design it in such a way where we access the group via the members that you've listed, and what I saw in what, you know, we had from last year, the Committee on Committees is selecting. The caucus would offer folks, as we're building this group, communication is going to be key. We can get a comprehensive team together. And I'm not just saying that to be, you know, wishful thinking. We've already done it. We've done it before. So, I know what we can accomplish. But what it takes is communication, you know, and as long as within the structure of the bill, and I know that Damien is a master at construction, he develops a language in such a way that we can access the right people, because I think we have a list of the right, you know, the right people will be will be okay. Representative Kolecki. All right. Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. Thanks for this bill. Important for us. Representative Triano, then Blumlee. Thank you, Chair Stevens. I had a question for Amanda. You spoke of transformative justice, as opposed to restorative justice. And the thinking of this community over the past two years in taking testimony and considering a eugenics resolution, an apology, I should say, is more consistent with restorative justice, the notion that we've done you wrong and we want to make it right. So, I guess I'm curious as to what your thoughts were when you spoke of that. Yes, so transformative justice has a restorative justice, which is, we did you wrong and we're going to do this, but transformative, like transforms the system so that it doesn't happen again. And it has like impacted people really saying this is what the system needs to change. So it transforms the system, restorative justice, in my opinion, and from some of the thinkers of restorative justice is more of just we did you wrong and we want to support, but to make it more long-term, it's like the sustainability is the transformative justice where the systems are changing. So that would take us through this bill to, from restorative on the resolution, the apology resolution to this through this bill, which would transition to let's not happen again. Thank you. I understand. Great. Thanks very much. That's a great perspective. I like it. And basically, Mr. Chair. Yes, please go ahead. That's what I guess I'll refer to it as a paradigm shift. And basically, we turned it upside down. When we formed our working group, instead of it being compromised, comprised of the normal suspects, we said, no, let's get a group of Vermonters from all over the state representing every county in every constituency. And we'll only have four legislators. That's a paradigm shift. And that's what you're talking about here. And I think that's what Ms. Garsus is talking about, too. It's flipping it upside down and going in the other direction, which is a positive one. All right. Representative Blumlee. Thank you, Chair. Ms. Garsus, I have a question that I have already asked of the sponsors or John, the representative Kalaki has, and I'm wondering about your perspective on this. I'm wondering about, I'm just trying to wrap my arms around kind of the role, the appropriate role of this committee and how much this committee spells out and how much it leaves others to define. And I didn't know if you had any thoughts about that. Yeah, in my perspective, and I think that it is important not to spell out all the things if you're going to have a room of impact to people that can help the state really think through, okay, these are the things that we need it. And if this bill is encompassing all the groups, everybody's going to have kind of different needs in a way that will be designed by the group itself. And I'll give you an example with Act 1, which when we started, we do have a task at hand, but the work plan and the way that we think about how the work needs to get done, I think that if it was given to us as prescriptive, it will not make a difference because the needs of the community that are in the group are being expressed. We need to look at this because this is policies are really not supporting BIPOC students, for example. We need to look at these policies. That is, I think it's important that that group kind of generates that thought process and that brainstorming so that we are giving the voice to who needs to have the voice. So that's the short answer. I have a follow-up, but it's all right. Representative Triano and Colston both have questions or comments, so I'm fine. Thank you. Representative Colston. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm being summoned back to GovOps. Possibly my role as Clerk is being called upon, so I may have to duck out of this meeting for a short while. Yeah, we are actually going to be finishing up in a minute. We have a couple of bill introductions coming up, so you may clerk away. Okay. Thank you all. Yes, thank you. All right. Committee, I think we're going to coach. Yep. Just another quick addendum to Representative Blumlee's question about process. We did a similar process when our work group was formed. We bought, as I said, 14 Vermonters of affected group constituencies, and they actually did a 62-page report with findings as to a number of key issues, including how we as legislators should be responding and reacting to them. Okay. So the outcomes can be enlightening, and as we said before, potentially transformational. It changes difficult, but at the same time, like Ms. Garces said, we've got some amazing thinkers in our state, and we need to just unleash the hounds, so to speak. No, and thank you for coming in, Coach. Thank you, Amanda. Thank you, and I am here for any questions at all the time, anytime. Okay. And I'm just down the hall, so you can always down the virtual hall, right? No, you're not. You're down the virtual hall and down a set of stairs. Yeah, really. But we always come up to use your room. Yes, you do. Take care, everyone, and thanks for your time. Really appreciate it. Yeah, take care, and take care, Amanda, and committee, we are going to take...