 he's a very bad person and I hate every single thing about him literally every oh no we're live are we out live? holy crap well just about to start it'll be up in just a second you are now live the internet can totally see you hello people how terrifying yeah it's good to be back uh it's been exactly like a week but slightly longer so it feels like it's been years that's how it goes oh it does feel like a bit actually I'll be missing it get a lot of like you know as soon as you go over a week with efab you get like people being like hey what's the next one like we just did one that was 12 hours and it's like I don't care what's the next one it's getting popular these days there's a lot of people um jumping in the chat how is everyone hello I mean people like efab in what can I say yeah who doesn't it's weird for sure I don't know what's wrong with people ultimately I don't want to judge do you guys want to judge I don't well sometimes I mean we get to judge him it's fine you're allowed to judge um so yeah the first thing I should say is the rags and wolf are both unavailable I'm afraid so and that's very unfortunate I miss those guys I know that's the every single time you turn up wolf happens to not be able to turn up like what's going on maybe there's some kind of message he's trying to avoid you it seems like that but he like on one of the other efabs I was on um uh something like he gave you a share that so huge thumbs up thanks we'll appreciate it and there was this weird really weird argument ended up in the comment replies someone some guy was attacking me for a subliminal messaging and promoting my book or something and he was like oh I remember reading that yeah that's uh that's really subliminal just telling people hey I made something I started off with hints that I was like just flashing the book cover and then I would back like oh hell what was that but wolf ripped into him I couldn't have a laugh at it it was glorious love you wolf appreciate it mate you know you are loved and respected we can't have that kind of attitude I thought it was weird though because like subliminal as if like you're manipulating your audience without you know without them knowing or something you will buy this book even though at that point was it even viable at that point no it wasn't it was just those subliminal messages I mean how dare you want to succeed you know you should just reserve yourself to fail you that's what I did and it worked great yeah sword man bad I guess but actually swords are pretty cool they are I've heard about them you can't criticize swords well I mean that's like your opinion bro I don't know isn't it all subjective how Dave is there an objective cool factor to swords oh yes yes we all agree on that so and yours what is our roster today we've got no new guests we've got a flurry of old ones how wonderful the longest I believe longer-standing guest outside of Jay or drawing with Jay is Mr Fringy how do you do sir I'm doing very well wonderful it's good to have you here it's been a while actually since you've been something e-fabulate other than that weird time we popped into help read super chats yeah that was a great use in my time like we were there for four hours super chats next up is the returning master of medieval mischief oh I just came up with that well that was a iteration sir I see I could be a writings writer author that's the one um there you go how how are you man you haven't you've been on this is your fourth e-fab technically how weird is that I know yeah I gosh something something's wrong with me clearly I'm going great I'm going really good for many reasons you like spider-man that's this one right well yeah I do like spider-man depending on which version depends on what you mean by spider-man yeah I know but yeah lots lots of things to keep me keep me happy at the moment so I think things are good and uh finally returning once again I have no idea how many e-fabs dash bullshit has actually been on you you came early and then you like intermittently jump in and you've made some pretty awesome memes one of which will be featured one day I'm thinking well yeah free you seen it because you had to see it but uh how do you do how do you do sir yeah pretty good pretty good yeah I would have been on like three now Eric Taksin uh yeah about three gotta be back I don't enjoy being here so I mean you go it's just a full cast everything it's no no things can't happen um but how are you more no you can't ask that that's cheating I'm I'm the one that doesn't have any feelings because I'm the host the the hosts never have feelings you ever watch like who wants to be a millionaire do they ever ask the hosts on that how they feel about winning millions they never get to they don't win millions they just earn it every episode they just isn't there a little too high in the newest versions of it now like one of the lifelines is ask the host that's what I've heard if you what is it not in your interest as host to sabotage them the company you work for is like don't let them win you asshole okay you should you should host one of them but all about like medieval stuff sure that would be true I just saw something cool in the chat thanks Daniel I appreciate it man sorry that's okay chat chat a wonderful when they're wonderful um so today's eFap I guess people have already spotted in the title it's sputum and related we actually still haven't managed to get a far from home related fucking podcast yet it's been ages because uh a fierce wolf and rags hadn't seen it and then I think it was rags hadn't and then like wolf was away so I was like this is just gonna be that one now so um at one point we'll talk about that it's been long enough that most people would have seen it I imagine that'll be great but there's much to say on this there's a the we want to like have an addendum for the previous eFap talking a bit about like why homecoming's not not terrible from a movie standpoint probably might be worthwhile and actually talking about you know what happens in the film and why it's like decent outside of what happened on the previous eFap which was a great exploration of comic readers versus film lovers slash different values I suppose or different standards framing lots of different words could fit in there well and interesting I actually do want to explore those arguments in a bit more depth as well because I actually feel there was some validity to what they were trying to say and so I have my own way of trying to frame that argument and I'm interested to see what you guys say on the subject well then okay yeah um all right in that case I guess we should just try and get started with homecoming because otherwise we're gonna be here for a very long time but um so I don't know we'll we'll start with I got to bring it up briefly in the um in the previous podcast but we'll see what you think Shad because you're gonna be the main person to sort of fight against it if if if preferred if preferred maybe you'll agree well see I should I should just say this I mean I said it on one of the previous eFaps I liked homecoming I gave it like seven or eight out of ten um but I actually do understand the arguments people have been proposing that are that go against it and actual fact it's those very same arguments that made me dislike far from home a lot more than other people I saw these kind of indications in homecoming but they were very minor and I was able to ignore them and enjoy the film overall because there were some interesting uh I guess you could call them risks but they were trying some different approaches with a Peter Parker character and I didn't think they were necessarily bad I thought some of them were certainly out of character with the previously established Peter Parker character um and in that sense if you were wanting a more traditional Spider-Man take you could have take issue with it but I did like some of the things that they were trying and and so I was open to it and stuff but I think they really they took that kind of theme and then went off the rails with it in far from home so so I I'm gonna argue the point that I don't necessarily agree with I'm playing devil's advocate and the issue that happens when I do this is that people generally think that this is definitely my opinion because I can end up arguing quite strongly for this view that I'm not fully on board with I just want to give validity to the opposing side and then people think that's what it is I like homecoming okay I want I want I hope everyone will remember that very well so I figure okay good place start would just be Peter Parker's character so um ignoring any sources if I I know how this sounds because I've said it so many times and it didn't mean shit in the previous podcast I'm gonna say it again not can pretend for a second that nothing else exists uh how his journey is written only considering his time in the MCU continuity being civil war and homecoming obviously I'm not saying you're not allowed to consider far from home I'm just saying um what happens in homecoming with only relevance reference to civil war and homecoming being um I see the film about being establishing his motivation like the why of being a superhero um I don't know if like I should uh sort of invite everyone to sort of give their ideas about what they might think that it was in the film or how well they they did it but I kind of talked about it last time the whole um civil war he has like the baseline what you could call philosophy of um and some people have a problem with the fact that he's got this idea rather than us seeing where it came from um if you if you don't do things when bad things happen when you have the power to stop them then you may as well make them happen that whole idea um a lot of people have drawn that the MCU was trying to imply that something happened with uncle ben and that would have given him that sort of perspective I I don't know the um that's necessary I think that that's his sort of perspective regardless it may have been uncle ben it may have been that something happened there may have been in the six months of heroine or before that that he came to this conclusion but it's very undeveloped you would expect well you would kind of just expect that's what happened I mean if this is a spider-man movie the unspoken parts of certain you know actions history and stuff like that if it isn't mentioned the film the default assumption is to be well what is already established with the peter parker character so you'd assume the ben sorry uncle ben event has already transpired unless they explicitly state in the movie that something different has occurred and it's not canon so I don't blame people for having that assumption that you know uncle ben should have already been done we've just seen it twice already and so my my own take was on it they they didn't need to rehash the same kind of thing like how many times have we seen um uh Bruce Wayne's parents get killed you know in Batman and stuff I think that is satisfactory for both people who are too hyper aware of uh third party content and people who aren't aware of any of it at all would you agree with that what do you mean by uh hyper aware of third party so like if you just watch the ramy trilogy and then you just watch the amazing spider-man duology is that what that's considered I don't know whatever like and then you watch homecoming duo duo just is it is it not considered a duology if it's a completed to it's not complete it's you know what I you know what I mean you know like the cut out they call it the alien quadrilogy before the next one was made so um so like a point being that uh the film functions and the the origin quote-unquote of his philosophy is is uh it stands if you have no idea what spider-man is or who uncle ben is or how any of it relates to anything yeah yeah so sorry sorry well you're saying that um I'm saying it's a piece of perspective stands irrelevant of what happened with uncle ben in the mcu it stands if you're aware of the third party information or not the reason I I believe they wrote it that way was because uh it would work as both so if you're coming in with all of that awareness and then you go oh you probably learned that from uncle ben I'm like who's uncle ben didn't you just I figured you just learned it and you'd be like oh well yeah no I guess that will see I'm not sure see I'm not sure about that because the core theme of spider-man which is very well established is you know the great power comes great responsibility and it and is basically the spirit of the character right there and so if you have events where he's starting to betray that well that would bring into question did the uncle ben event happened and not and knowing if it did were to help inform your perspective on his actions later on and he's mostly like he's mostly consistent in homecoming but it's in far from home that I have the issue with um where he starts to stray from the core peter parker character and uh and so yeah that that's where the absence of the ben you know uncle ben thing starts to have question marks and that's where it's a bit more problematic even though I hate using that would have corrupted that damn word but sometimes it's useful uh I mean my my view of it is that um that when it comes to ben is if you'd never heard of spider-man and you watched homecoming or you watched civil war you wouldn't know who ben was but the story still works it's it works whether or not you're aware ben park is existence um but I mean on the point of like somebody dying and you don't necessarily fully absorb their lesson I think that's entirely possible yeah um I do think yeah like because uh molly you started this entire kind of explanation with uh uh the groundwork that if you're just looking at this as its own single thing irrespective of anything that's gone before and honestly I'm not sure you can do that um uh like of course you can but I'm saying that the fact is there is external material that defines who this character is oh yeah I'm I'm saying theoretical for now we'll get to whether or not you should I'm just saying theoretical for now okay cool so if it were to stand on its own if the other content never existed at all the what we're given is a kid with what is essentially quite an unrefined base for philosophy because if you told me for example molly you should live by the mantra if there's something you could do to stop a bad thing from happening you should be doing it otherwise you've basically caused it I'll be like mate by that logic I'm causing a lot of bad things to happen like if I was to expend every last piece of energy I have in favor of making other things better for other people um then it would be pretty difficult to pull that off firstly but what I'm doing right now probably make me Satan by that logic so him saying even that I think there's arguments to um oppose it because what about expending sufficient enough energy right but this is the thing the philosophy alone is is relatively vague that's this kind of my point is that it's very admirable it's very altruistic but it's almost childish and um that's what he has with civil war now homecoming I see is a story where it's it's like refining it because he spends the whole film going head first into saving people but then he finds that there are several scenarios in which he shouldn't be going there he shouldn't be getting involved he's ruining things by um approaching them and so I'd say by the end of the film he's figured out that it's about when and where to not just about why and that's your view on homecoming specifically yeah and I went on that yeah sort of small rant in the previous podcast about like all of the sort of parts to the film and I think you're trying to support that journey that he's more concerned with making sure he's a quote unquote hero he's labeled he's doing everything an avenger is supposed to do instead of thinking about like the the specifics of each context of how he enters each of the fights and of course Tony Stark's gonna have a problem with that because his whole lesson in previous films has been about not being reckless with the power and ultimately I would actually argue that it all comes under the umbrella of with great power comes but without saying it at any point yeah and that's a solid that on top of it it is a solid character arc it's consistent it falls together and that's why it works that's why I liked it doesn't mean that there are um points of criticism that people can put against it and uh and I'd like to perhaps try and argue some of those points to see if they're them you know more valid than many people have regarded um so that's you don't have something we might be able to do about homecoming yeah about homecoming specifically yeah go for it well first I want to kind of go back on the uh the premise of this whole thing about looking at it in its own kind of um self-contained thing and so to to you know um begin this kind of logical thing I'll take an example to an extreme and see what you guys think okay so what what movie could you say is better or is there even a point to try and determine if one is better uh pride and prejudice one of the looking at say one of the better film adaptations or the return of the Jedi I uh haven't seen pride and prejudice I haven't seen it either unfortunately wow you uncultured I think I think don't leave I think my mum would have shown me it when I was really young but other than that they forced it in school at one point I don't know my I guess my point is these are both incredible incredible stories like in terms of the characterization the plots the execution they they're great on so many levels so how like comparing them against one another is so difficult because they're so different they're catering to a different audience they're the whole purpose behind each story is so so drastically different so you can't really say one is necessarily better than the other but you can say this pride and prejudice is an absolute terrible Star Wars film and Star Wars is a horrible pride and prejudice you know Jane Austen Regency romance and so it's a matter of perspective and I mentioned this to more um when we're having a chat before that you're you're only able to determine um you're only really able to understand something or even categorize it with a specific point of reference uh Mount Everest is huge compared to say me but if you compare it to the size of the earth it suddenly becomes puny it's small and so the point of reference with these films that we're looking at is Batman you're expecting or first and foremost a superhero movie but also a Batman movie if you went into a Batman movie to watch a Batman movie and you got the Flash or Superman it fails at one of the primary reasons for its existence to be a Batman movie and so with that point of reference you would say this movie is bad in this specific context my response to that would be okay so I go to the movies the the screen says I'm going to go see Spider-Man I go in and I see a movie that isn't that and it's really good like it's just it's well written well shot all I could say is that was good but it wasn't what I wanted to see and because of that you could say it is bad because it wasn't what now because it wasn't what it was supposed to be by the very um name of the title it sets up a point of reference an expectation of what if I could offer him a different counter you said that I wouldn't be able to call or at least I wouldn't concede that you can't call that return of the Jedi or project or just a better always I need to see it and then I'll try and figure out as best to talk about how consistent the plot lines or the character arcs or the the world building is like all of the just basic elements of like drawing up a story what you can say and this is not in relevance to which one is the better Star Wars film you can say that a new hope has tighter writing than Return of the Jedi like by far I actually personally prefer Return of the Jedi but I think that a new hope is actually the better film or at least stronger film tighter film there's there's there's a lot of categories to go over um but good lord that's a subject for a whole the first like that's I would want to because I'm yeah I would want to try and figure out the validity of that you could know I but I know which one I like more and I have this naive assumption which could be very short-sighted to me that I tend to like things because they're better yeah no that's totally fair that's totally fair um I like the you know many people have gone over it but that that opening like half hour of Return of the Jedi where it's very difficult to nail down just what the hell they were trying to achieve and how many better decisions all of the characters can make um and and when you try and figure it out from like in post once you've seen the whole film you're like what were they trying to do what was the goal and you look at the end of of empire and you're like how did they go from there to okay you try to ignore it then there's you know there's a lot to it while um I feel like the other two from a basic perspective is uh is actually a lot there are a lot more consistently written and that's probably how I would go about trying to pull which one is superior um in terms of a piece of writing and so I guess this is another kind of thing to try and explore because your standard as I've come to be familiar with is mostly like consistency you know you know um logical connections between character motivations plot and other things like that um don't you think that there are other elements outside of that that can be objectively quantified as to the quality of uh something uh yeah depends on what standard you're using I suppose yeah yeah exactly and so you can be objective to a standard but I think that essentially consistency and progression is intrinsically tied to storytelling there are other things that are intrinsically tied to storytelling possibly yes but there is no story without a progression of events because that's what it is right that that is absolutely true um so uh like I've been thinking about this and I've been wondering you know what are some other elements that could be considered pretty you know um uh connected to the quality of it character likeability I don't know if I agree with that because I mean I think a good example a lot of people like Ray I don't so I couldn't argue I'm like ability because a lot of people like her no yes see this I know that a lot of this does become subjective but I do feel even even having said that that there are certain general standards that make a character more likeable what if what if I'm not going for likeable what if I'm going for unlikeable what if I'm going for unlikable at the start and likeable at the end what if you're free yeah yeah okay okay so maybe I should replace likeable with uh effective perhaps or I guess effective is a different thing altogether it is it is but like a character that serves the plot in such an effective way can become likeable because they are so effective in the plot like joffrey do you mean do you mean they're necessary or that they well let's look at joffrey right um joffrey is a brilliant character therefore I like him I don't like him as a person but as a character that needs to serve the role of a story is brilliant therefore I like him right okay um what what if somebody said um yeah he is brilliant but I hate him and that was the that was the point that they were going for I hate him but that's why it works for me for example in my short time watching Game of Thrones I found joffrey to be really forced in terms of how much you know he was a character he seemed like they like like they hammered it into your head you're supposed to hate him look how bad he is oh look he's just beating them whores for no reason oh it's like to that for me it felt like like he was really forced and I just I was like oh they just want me to hate him so what you've raised there no this is good what you've raised there is a good solid argument that goes against the overall quality of a character that then can make a movie less likable less good like if you're just trying to make you know judge something for its quality and so my point isn't really about joffrey because I actually haven't seen Game of Thrones but I'm you know using second hand information my point is can the quality of the character be intrinsically tied to the overall quality of the movie and I think yes well yeah but then you need a framework for well exactly exactly exactly and so the framework is I think is always going to change dependent on the expectation and what is what the character is supposed to fulfill in the plot well no no no like like for instance the hero okay as soon as you have a protagonist there are certain expectations that are intrinsically tied to what a protagonist should do for a plot you can subvert them like for you know yeah like if you're going for an idealic aspirational hero and stuff there are certain beats that help achieve that better than others and so it will become a very like different thing dependent on I guess the different character type if it's a villain there are certain things you would hope to want the villain you could have a likable villain you know like Loki or you could have a despised villain that you really want people to hate like joffrey and stuff and if they're achieving what they were meant to achieve in the plot or what the character is supposed to be and you can understand that through context fairly easily I feel you can then judge objectively if that character has achieved it. Well men too is an interesting one because what if the what the writer meant to do was just crap so they achieved their goal but it was a bad idea you know yeah so I'm referring to general standards in storytelling and so like again protagonist there are certain things even separate to what the author wants the greater kind of audience that's going to be reading this is going to have certain established expectations just based on general understanding of story yeah but general means it's not universal no no but there are percentages that become fairly solid I mean like I think about quantum mechanics as off-branded as that is we it's impossible to know the exact state of a you know subatomic particle until you observe it and but and we're not observed you cannot predict where it will appear but what you can do is know the the likelihood of where it will appear yeah and so you the percentage the like the percentage becomes the objective standard like you know and so if i was to convey this to literature now that an effective hero the you could say these qualities generally make good effective heroes okay now if you're going to break from that standard I'm not saying it's impossible to make an effective hero but generally breaking from that standard makes less effective and if you were to like I know we can't do this but if you were to judge every single hero in every single story and list these qualities and stuff like that I do feel the heroes that are worse okay yeah on many different levels will be those that have broken from that standard more often than not that's the percentage what are the what are the standard ones that you would say like what are the standard traits well again it always depends on exactly the type of character you're if I can what I think is going to happen here is he's going to ask you for one for let's say hero you provide a standard sort of attribute for a hero then you'll give you an example of a hero that doesn't have that attribute then you'll say it's not a you know complete rule it's just a general rule yeah exactly it'll bring him back to the whole way exceptions yeah like I already said that you can have exceptions but my point is that generally when you have a look at most of them you will find a general standard of certain character traits that have been successful with the hero archetype and for instance far I mean Far From Home is going to be a great example because in that specific you know movie and the portrayal of Peter I feel that they made certain deviations from the type of character Spider-Man has already been established to be and you can say that it was bad because it changed from what was already established to who the Spider-Man character is so it's bad in one instance and irrespective of what has gone before and what has been established Spider-Man it was also bad because these character traits do not reflect positively on him as a character making him less unlikable for the type of hero it's established for him to be then the counter argument would be the the whole relatability argument to which his responses and his actions are extremely relatable and then somebody could just say well from their relatability framework and relatability is another one of these sort of generally accepted rules someone could just say well he's relatable and believable so he's good and this is exactly what yeah you're exactly right and this is why I brought up the Pride and Prejudice and you know return the Jedi thing because that entirely depends on the point of reference of where you're judging it from and so the question is what is more important for a hero character to be relatable or for him to be heroic now Spider-Man is already relatable in my opinion and if they want to make it more relatable at the cost of his you know idealic noble character of what Spider-Man is meant to be I would say that was a poor decision and resulted as you know as a character as a result well we can go into the specifics of why when we start to explore far from home so sorry I got a crying baby I should have also prefaced prefaced this everyone that my kids are just getting up ready for school and stuff so there might be some background noise yeah that kid is far from happy yeah he's like he's hungry so my point is because there are always specifics and we will go into the specific of Spider-Man because this is kind of my foundation for my views on what happens um but let's like let's go back to the my broader argument about um can the quality of the character being in a thing that is intrinsically tied to the quality of the film and I feel yes I mean the quality of character can be tied to film I think has generally been tied to the whole consistency argument but um but I guess my thing is it's so but I guess my counter yeah my counter is that you can have a very consistently written character right that does not fit in the story at all or does not fulfill the purpose he was meant to fulfill in that story and also can just be wholly unlikeable you are not in there is no you are getting far less entertainment value out of watching reading or whatever being present in a scene with this character than if they are not and so I would say that this means character is a very intrinsically tied thing to the quality of a story irrespective of the idea of internal consistency well I guess my thing is is um so you're talking about the hero the hero archetype and sort of the qualities of a hero archetype but I can just think of so many examples of heroes that completely some of that archetype who yeah I agree completely like there there are exceptions um to the standard but does that mean the standard isn't yeah because if if you can if you can look at a plot hole and say oh well this story still works then like it's literally no longer a plot hole yeah like it's an unbreachable standard yeah it can't be breached which is why it can be assessed objectively in the same way as a lot of science hot on I still have this is how early I'm awake my normal alarm just went off um but um yeah it's the the idea would be that when we try to set objective standards these I mean you look at science the idea is to set an unbreachable standard and and the goal is always to work towards an unbreachable standard it's like when you brought up the quantum thing all I'd say is I'm sure the scientists are quite keen on getting to a point where they can be correct a hundred percent of the time with the metrics that they have well on that note I like if we were if we had infinite processing capacity I think it would be possible to break down every every detail like no matter how small of characterization of consistency as well of all the elements that make a story good and you could put it on an objective scale but because there are so many factors to try and consider that I think it's impossible only to hear free answer this question for you Shad right so free can you have an objectively consistent character to the sense of perfection absolutely knowing consistencies whatsoever and they still theoretically be liked by nobody yeah yeah yeah because what if you wrote a story where it was only that was the only possible outcome you know where it's like yeah they're consistent but nobody likes them yeah so that would make the bad the story that would make that story would the well no because if everyone on planet earth disliked them that does not mean they are unlikable other than they wouldn't like anyone on earth who knows another baby is born tomorrow and they like the character who'd be like oh well there you go it's let's see now see like when you're determining if something is good okay like this comes into their idea of what creates value gold is only valuable because there's a majority of people who actually say it's valuable and this is the same with quality and so I would say that's when it comes to like story and character and maybe there are ways to argue against this one what determines a story to be good you know I do think majority consensus plays a part in it but I know the counter to this is a lot of people like the last Jedi well so and you might be right before you go on you might be right about that but theoretically but even if you were the point where you've just highlighted for us is that if ever we said well most people don't like this character so they're bad and people could be like well most people like a split on the last Jedi so how can you say that story is bad and we'd be stuck in like the land of never making conclusions well what if we're not stuck because if people do then come with the you know counter that there is a lot of people who like it you can then start to apply other intrinsically tied elements to story do really try and find out if it's good or bad consistency being a great point of reference to determine quality and so perhaps you know even in those instances where the majority consensus fails that's where you can rely on other things but it perhaps might not say that like majority consensus is completely invalid because I do feel that like the the general qualities that determine if a character is good or not are reliable there are ways that you can break free and stuff but if you had a movie where all the characters were nearly universally disliked by most people with the very few exceptions one or two you could say quite objectively this is a horrible film i wouldn't say that you'd have to no i would i would have to clarify i'd be like this film is despised and then someone's like is it poorly written and if it let's say by any standard i've constructed with the consistency within my channel in the way that i've i've gone over it with like fringy rags wolf etc i would buy all accounts have to be like well no and this has happened before by the way the homecoming is the perfect example i was told by everybody the homecoming was godawful i watched it and i was like okay um it's not though and the people be like what the hell and that's kind of what all this died i was like well if i'm to remain consistent with the standards we've all been discussing over the past 40 something e-faps like yeah the the characters are very consistent the plot line is all based on cause and effect there are a few conveniences i'll hand you but no more that should ever judge it to the point where it's become like an abysmal failure and then i'm like why is it that people hate it and i'm like oh there's a lot of people mentioning this whole comic argument what's this about and i've looked into it i was like oh motivation very clear on why people hate it and um i think i'm sorry i'm sorry i think all right um well on the on the majority thing it's like that's um couldn't that be sort of broken down into macro and micro scales at which point you would start to question i guess like you know where the cutoff is and why so i.e the majority of science fiction fans don't like this character in a science fiction story but the majority of regular people do enjoy it it's like would then which one do we use as the reference for the majority consensus or like people in a country generally like it like this is actually a great point of argument because like i would like to discuss this a bit further just from my own understanding or maybe you guys can help me out because twilight okay um good example of that of a book that that there is a lot of people who hate that book okay but there are far more people who love it okay and it's success like in my mind has to you know is connected to something very significant people will say it's poorly written the characterization is unrealistic and things like that yet it is so loved still and so successful what has it done because in my mind if it is that successful it has to have done something good now the the thing that's killing me about this argument is that the same argument could be made to the last Jedi that i'm dying inside but the thing is like well the same argument can be made with many of the Fast and Furious movies i love a lot of the Fast and Furious movies knowing that so much of it is bad but yet there is so much about it i like and if i'm liking something in it in my opinion there i feel you would have to be able to break it down and find certain objective elements in it you could say this is why people like it and this is why people like it if i grab onto that and then repeat it in something else i should be able to make something else that is also likeable and if and if it's a consistent kind of element that you can identify and then reproduce that makes it objective in my mind um well i was going to highlight is our processes are clearly slightly different when i find that someone likes something but it's inconsistently written i'm like i'm curious what it is that made them like it so say for example uh there's a piece of politics in the in the media that agrees with them and i'm like oh that makes sense or the the person was cast for like uh like let's just say it was a really likable actor at the time like oh they like it because it's him or um it's just a sequel of a franchise that's really popular i'm like oh they just like it because it's popular or transformers it's like oh they just like the CGI the explosions like as long as i can find a motivation i'm fine with it i can move on um but one thing i thought you'd be interested in asking me by now i think you'd eventually get there because of like most people do um a couple people have already but it's like if you've identified objectively good as completely irrelevant to making people enjoy it and what the hell is the point of it um and my take is always that it's like the baseline so we can actually discuss the mechanics effectively whether or not someone likes that um if i was to you know like explaining peter's journey uh in in homecoming and someone's sitting there the whole time like that's not peter though i'd be like oh i'm not really talking about that i'm just talking about this journey which is really recognizable or relatable or a set up and paid off or transmits in a very uh sensical way with lots of little like highs and lows and so once you highlight all of these things actually existing like being there someone might be watching the video and going huh that's pretty cool actually i didn't notice that and then maybe if they watch it again because i don't know about you guys but i've watched reviews where they've actually made me hate films or love films in further watching because it's stuff you don't notice or stuff that you did notice and ignore and you recognize your own biases like that's part of what i think is really fascinating about it when you actually figure out a reason for why you were blocked in terms of liking or disliking it which has happened to me as well i'll be like oh fuck i actually like that because like i always tell people like i love bad about robert it's terrible but it's all stinger being happy as hell and i love the shit out of that actor like i don't really care that that's my bias i can accept it's poorly written yeah but even so so my opinion i guess is because i agree i like i absolutely agree with the idea of consistency being intrinsically tied to if something is good completely my personal take on top of that is that i feel it's too narrow i do feel that there are other elements that are intrinsically tied to a story that reflect on its quality characterization very important one and so going back to that example of you could have a perfectly consistent film but if all the characters are unlikable okay and they're doing you know things horrible things and so as a result that film would just be horrible and you'd be thinking you know now when you say what is the point well maybe that's when you again could bring up a new standard that might be out of try and redeem it in some way yeah i think that makes sense like we've talked about it previously but the idea that some guy is writing a story and he's like what should i have my hero do and it's like have him be proactive and some other guys like you don't have to have him be proactive it's like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i know but people typically like proactive heroes exactly generally speaking a proactive hero which we i don't think anyone here would disagree with you on that but typically people like proactive heroes the problem is that typically typically isn't enough again i guess it goes back to the percentage thing is that i even feel that typically is it sets a general standard that is a different i think if you're gonna write line but not a standard it's like it's kind of like all the writing rules like three act structure like the three act structure isn't objectively superior to other structures it just generally works well which is why you're recommended to do it it's the same with like proactive characters or active versus passive characters or um you know things of that nature or traits or you know it's a kind of like it's the advice you see a lot when people talk about writing it's like yeah let's do some advice it's um it'll probably do well for you but it's not it's not an objective standard because i could just come along and say well i like passive characters no so i have to argue the point yeah my reply to that is that um i do feel it's an objective standard but because it's objective if you understand because you know if you understand the benefits of an active protagonist and how they benefit the plot how they engage or even stuff like that you can then know when it's appropriate to break that standard because you can then understand it so well let's say in this instance it is better for the service of the plot or a rocking narrative for him to be not you know um proactive in this instance and so again this is a you're understanding very objective you know elements about characterization and how you're working them into a plot to make a better story overall well my response to that would be um you can't break you can't do plot holes and have it be better than if it didn't have plot holes plot holes are just flaws they are inarguable flaws whereas like what if what if i let me jump on the plot hole thing i mean no there are ways to make plot holes like you can put a plot hole in a movie and make the movie better by having that plot hole in it was actually to bolster shad funnily enough but well i'm on both of your teams with this one technically speaking it's not all bad to have plot holes if you have something like space balls where something impossible happens and is played for laughs however it is a flaw in the storytelling designed to evoke laughter so it's still objectively a plot hole but see this thing the new standard then like the quality you're gauging the quality of film based on how much it makes you laugh no no no no and by it no no and by it achieving that purpose it is then more successful better film as a result and it is better because it had that pot hole in the point that's being made though is that the plot hole is still a plot hole it's it's something that can be identified clearly and you know you can present the evidence to explain why it's a plot hole someone can't then turn around and just say well i prefer like i like it and then it means the plot hole doesn't exist whereas when it comes to characters you know you can have a passive character and then it's like well this character is passive so they're bad and then someone says well i like them and it's like well then what do you where do you go from there but see the counter to this is then wouldn't it wouldn't the counter to your argument about plot holes only take one person somewhere to say i like that the plot hole is in it yeah but the plot hole still exists though no no but see if you're saying the the objective you know um what am i trying to say so a plot hole is bad objectively is what you're trying to say but if then you're then saying the the purpose or value that has in a story is determined by how people react to it what if somebody came into space balls and what and thought they were at least not not that they thought they're like i want this story to make sense from beginning to end and then they watch it it wouldn't achieve that purpose for them if they were taking it totally seriously because the plot hole still exists yeah i'm just trying to understand uh you know because you might have a point here or i might have just lost my train of thought the point that i'm kind of trying to get onto plot holes are very clearly identifiable issue because it's a break in logic and logic is a is a standard that's more easily defined and can be more rigidly adhered to so like okay so we have a story it's like john woke up john walked to the shop um he spontaneously combusted turned into a pile of ash john got a sausage roll from the shop walked home and you know what you made a comedy and it's it's funny right but the the logic the logic of the story is broken it's fucked because it doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense the interesting addendum to that then is fringy's highlighted there are no stakes as well because now anything is possible so we have no idea how to understand like so dramas suffer miserably from plot holes yeah so i agree with you yeah now i'm trying to apply your argument to the broader context of what we're discussing about being out to judge something for its quality on objective standards i just want to highlight right because this is the thing i'm actually this is really good right now it's just gonna i'm not sure how to steer this in terms of the purpose of the e-fap as a whole and i was gonna say we're getting pretty deep are we yeah well we're literally talking about the fundamentals of writing which is amazing it's just that like fuck i did promise to actually do some other things today uh so we're kind of led there or like uh unavoidably because my criticisms from far from to you know on far from home rely on these very elements we're talking about yeah that's that's fine i mean my view at least on your perspective is the things that you're saying about you know active versus passive and the traits that people generally like are good things to keep in mind when it comes to expedient writing in the sense that um it's it's you know it's easier to approach a story even if in a straightforward way based on what people like and don't like and for the record we've made a lot more progress already than last time yeah yeah exactly so yeah just to just to kind of i think i know a better way to try and say you i could not say universally that um an active protagonist is always universally better only generally better yeah standard but the way that i would apply it is that i would apply it specifically on a case by case basis to determine if this specific character in this specific story is worse for being passive or active and so as soon as when as soon as you apply it specifically i feel that objective standard can come back and can be relied upon to determine if something is good which would then also mean in my mind if characterization can be an intrinsically tied elements to a story to determine if it's good separate to just consistency of the plot and i mean it's not just consistent because i know how important that is but i still feel that there are other separate elements to that that can be very objectively you know so you can look at very objectively to determine if it's good or not um i'd say that i'd say that arguments of i guess of um i do agree that using a framework is better and tailoring the framework to you know on a case by case basis the issue only comes in the disagreements in the the framework or the disagreements that one would have in the framework of like a good example would be um we saw it would be in one of the videos we're watching where someone said that um spider-man homecoming is a comedy first and a superhero slash action ruby second like how do you then that changes the way that you would approach the framework you're absolutely right and this is a good point we're bringing up so i think you could say and defend this point fairly strongly that spider-man homecoming and far from home should be a spider-man film first and foremost which then sets up the you could say the most important point of reference to judge the film by could you not um well yeah but couldn't couldn't i just then say well this is my book um and it's called google blocks and um you need to judge it first and foremost as a google blocks book and then that would probably make the book better because i made it you know what i mean like no you actually do have a point there because even with what i said yeah and i like so this is me reiterating your point in my own words is that saying it's a spider-man film does not make it immune to review on other standards like consistency characterization and stuff you're absolutely right there so i agree with you but it doesn't mean the standard the point of reference you're judging it by for being a spider-man film is disregarded it's okay well actually um i saw someone in the chat bring up something that's interesting they said what is a spider-man film and i think that's a good point because we can get to that yes that's absolutely right this is important but so like the one thing i really really really want to do is talk about what homecoming does well in terms of writing irrelevant of spider-man um yes yeah and if say for example i said chat don't you not do you not think this is pretty good and then you say well uh it changes depending on if we look at blah blah blah and i'd be like that may very well be perfectly valid but are you able to forego it just for a bit just okay yeah per best example that i think we can bring up in this regard is the scene where spider-man's getting crushed by the pillar i think this is also a strong point of contention that people have because people don't like it because he's crying it comes across this week and then some people really like it because it shows him as relatable vulnerable struggling to overcome a thing and so on and so forth and so what we're seeing here in this instance are two very different point of views right that are actually based on two separate standards of you know the standard you're judging it by to determine if it's good or not um and so uh this is so my my own take on it but before i go on my take did you guys want to voice your own views on that scene is it and this is is this one of the things that you're trying to point towards i was more going toward so the the broad strokes of what they're achieving in their whole story as opposed to a particular moment whether or not he did the right sort of i don't mind talking about that in a bit but again broadly like so going for like his journey as a character did you because you you heard the the last e-faps debate what did you think about um me trying to explain his journey and understanding why it's important that he's clear on his motivation oh yeah there's a reason why i give homecoming an eight out of ten like i liked it or seven to eight um yeah i liked it absolutely there are some really good elements to the story overall i do understand the criticism certain criticism might have been but certain criticisms people have with it and where it's coming from and that their standard that they're generally applying is the first of all most the established character of who Spiderman is and that's something we will go into um the person in the chat was very right to bring it up because that's a really interesting argument i have personally or i i i find it interesting and uh and so uh i understand the counter arguments if but even having said that if you want to take away the point of reference of the pre-established Peter Parker character and try and look at certain things there are certain things that i can see why people didn't enjoy it as much and there are certain and there are certain things that i found a bit annoying but with what they were trying to achieve i also found satisfyingly enough almost to an enough of a level to offset my annoyance that i could say my annoyance doesn't really matter then if that makes sense uh there are there are people in the audience who desperately want to hear you and whoever else talk about why he's unfaithful and why that affects the film but there are also people out there really want to hear me slash other people here talk about what the film is doing well because maybe they don't know the arguments and also they may feel that they're not being talked about so like maybe if i shift focus like yeah but generally nearly everything that you say is working well in the film i'll probably agree with you okay well that's that that'll be great because i like people are desperate for me to actually talk about this because like why does more even like it i'm like i struggle to actually find opportunities to jab in why so vulture why is he a good villain all right i thought i'm literally this is a free for all go for anybody want to jump in um i will start yeah go ahead okay so yeah people have been getting mad at me for not saying anything but i honestly was just kind of listening to that and just kind of taking it in so don't mind me but uh i like vulture because he starts off as like a blue collar worker who just who did get screwed over and like over the course of several you know eight years he comes to learn of this technology and he's trying he's he's a he's a sympathetic villain in the sense because he's got a family to look after and he was able to you know care for them he still loves his family very very much he does it for them but in the end he's also you know he's bad enough to the point where you know peter does need to stop him and the unfortunate reality is he's also a wedge in between he and he and the girl so it he was also a big call to action for peter who was ready to throw away the whole spider-man thing until he showed up and was forced to act and um so he's he's an interesting villain he's not just the type that's just going to sit there and you know ring his hands together twist his mustache and you know i just love being rich i mean that's part of it but he was doing it for a cause in the end and it was one that you can understand as like you know if you ever have kids or you ever think about having kids you think like you know what wouldn't you do for them yeah i agree completely like his it's almost he is evil for what you could consider a noble purpose which is to support his family and stuff and even when you see him like kill someone for the first time wasn't that indefensive his family because shocker was threatening to you know reveal everything and that's why he killed him and took that step to being a murderer and stuff i mean well he didn't mean to kill him yeah he said oh shoot well but the fact the fact that he was comfortable with it implies that one he's probably not uh unfamiliar with killing people and two that he's actually okay with that result meaning that he was probably pretty close to it regardless and it also sets up yeah and and unlike the road to a villain like even you know in the real world is a step-by-step thing where it's one compromise and then because that compromise has happened it's easy to make that same thing but that also makes the next compromise that a little bit easier you know how do you kill a frog you don't chuck him in a boiling thing yeah you heat it up and let him slowly you know cook to death and that's the same thing and you see that with this character as well he doesn't jump to being a mustache twirling villain you see the step-by-step progression of his compromises and the shocker thing is a perfect example where even if you didn't mean to kill him outright he certainly was okay with it and that certainly makes killing someone later a lot easier as well and so these are all really good you know characterization elements story elements that just work very consistently kind of reminds me of Walter White yeah absolutely yeah I was going to say bring it go ahead before I'll do a bunch of things as well um so it's a lot of things because I think he's the best one in the MCU at least for the films um vulture is a is a character whose fate is very linked to events that happen in the MCU because homecoming and far from home are the most well integrated MCU movies at least in terms of taking advantage of the world that exists he's a character who was created by the Avengers he's a character who continues to exist because of the Avengers and what's happening um and that all sort of informs his design in terms of you know being a vulture and then his sort of um under the radar kind of uh those are more of the subtle I guess things that um kind of elevated that the fundamental thing is that he's a character who has motivations that are very clear and understandable and reinforced by the world to the point that it makes it kind of difficult to root against him um because he you know his his logic is justified in a in a way that is clear and um understandable the fact that he got basically screwed over by the Avengers um and then like the twist as well so giving him that personal link to Peter was able to set up um probably what I would say is the really most important part of the story in terms of Peter's growth where he has to then make the decision to be a hero even at the cost of his own life uh like at the cost of his own personal life um he's a great counterbalance to Peter because when he says you know like you and me are very similar it's like what's true they are very similar they're just normal guys in in the world a world that's changed and it's kind of will left him behind and then he had to change to catch up with it I probably didn't explain it super clearly I like him a lot though well yeah this is the thing is you're not right at a video for it so you don't get to redraft but like the so as as Fring said created by the Avengers that's pretty amazing to have in the film like direct results but this isn't the kind of retcon we get with Captain Marvel where it doesn't make any sense at all clashes with everything we know we're told from the get go he is vulture a guy who's going to pick up the scraps after every single event the event just created which which throughout the film I think there's like four or five instances with a casually name like uh they say something like a sub ultron arm is a is a potential weapon to sell to this guy and it's like sub ultron arm it's like so socovia so he's been stealing shit from socovia when damage control takes stuff they drive it all the way into damage controls cooperative base with tony stark um and on the way he'll pounce on their trucks he'll use the technology to just steal a small amount just a small amount he's like siphoning them every time just scraps and every time he does they repurpose it they sell it he moves on so the idea is like why haven't we seen him up to this point it's like well that's his whole deal he's trying to not be found he makes it very clear in the movies like don't bring down damage control the fucking avengers like jesus christ don't attract them because we'll be over in seconds and that's part of again what makes him so much more fascinating to me as a as a villain compared to the others who are like these so stupid knuckleheaded enemies that like go face first into like iron man two whiplash who's like i'ma take our iron man gets killed and then he comes back in the end of the film with a super suit and he gets killed and you're like okay and while vulture's like smart about the whole thing he's like i don't want to fight iron man we'll lose it's just like that's interesting um but yeah the fact that they make it clear from the get go he's got a family and that that's part of his motivation um the the fact that if you watch it on a second time through you'll notice he's um the sympathy for spider man will come the second that the washington monument thing is done um his threat to peter's life is serious because we know he's killed people and yet he spares him uh when he's holding him in the final fight with with the the jet drop and when he spares him in the prison who doesn't give up his name and i think it's tied intrinsically to the fact that he's not a bad guy he's defeated peter peter can't stop him at the end of the film and so it's like do i want to kill this kid who protects people and save my daughter it's like no he's not crazy which by the way how many fucking villains in the mcu are just insane like yeah there's a lot of them and that's the thing that really kind of that's why vulture's really good he's not insane at all he's completely level it's a consistent element as well even at the end of the film he protects peter by not revealing his identity exactly well i think uh i think it's a good example because um because molly you often like to cite iron monger as an example billard who is good up until he just lost his mind if you guys remember i am at one everything's working just fine in terms of his position that he finds out that shield are coming to see his suit and so he just gets inside it cackles and starts killing everyone you're like what are you like you're like a business guy like why what then there's there's the ad-bad villain who in narrative goes insane insults me scott your existence is insulting and then you draw all the way back to him being like uh this is what i'm willing to do for my family pete like i will kill you and everyone you love and it's oh that car scene man i don't even want it's great oh my god that was so good oh um so yeah vulture is an extremely strong part of of homecoming i guess was the point there um yeah i feel like any other points almost pale now because there's so much good to say about him but i would actually go so far as to say that he is uh better than mysterio in my i didn't like mysterio so i really like do agree that we can't wait so i like mysterio but not as much as vulture yeah exactly yeah uh i guess what i'm trying to think of like so the the way the way the film progresses then because i'm trying to think of other sort of uh bigger broad like i said broad strokes about the fact is a good is a good thing to talk about and yeah so like a lot of things seem to happen as a result of things that we're already aware of and then there's a dominant effect there's not much in terms of like that happened and then this happened you know like what how do they connect it's that happened because this happened and then that happened because this happened that sort of thing it's the south park riding rule of um butts and therefore this happened therefore this happened but this happened therefore this happens you know what i mean yeah so uh and drawing the peter's motivation is to um not necessarily because like this this is a part that people can get confused on right so if his motivation fundamentally is to do good then why is it that um he's almost thrill seeking slash well not thrill seeking that's the wrong word um what would you call it when you're gunning for appreciation slash trying to reach a label selfishness i don't know if that's the right word because he's still um over i wouldn't say over confidence i'm thinking um over ambitious i think i think that works i'm trying to think of what word i would do i'm just trying to be a little bit more expedient uh but yeah yeah that's what he's doing in the film is he's trying to be the guy that he sees the avengers as there's a supporting evidence for the film like for his like obsession with that um not only the news reports not only like the comment he has while he's in the warehouse he says like what if people see me without my suit and they expect someone like tony stock uh the fact that he's doing like impressions of the avengers the the he keeps identifying himself as an avenger to ned and that is like you're an avenger and it's like we already know that tony's already said no by the beginning of the film he's not so why is he telling them that it's like oh well it's the label isn't it it's the prestige um and so i will point out this is actually a point of criticism that some people take with the film oh i'm i'm gonna be arguing for a consistent journey not that it's um yeah yeah about that not anything else yeah yeah yeah his motivations being that he just wants well just not but you know mostly wants to be an avenger and stuff um uh so this is something we can talk about a bit later because i don't want to derail well but this is just a point out this is something that certain people have taken issue with and i see why so because it's not like the comics because i have a counter no no no no no no no no no no no like i think that is a bit of a straw man to their position um because there is some validity as to why they would be comparing and that's something we can discuss no but what what i mean is um if they're referencing the comic i have an example from the comics that counts as that yeah but all right so we'll that's something to explain all right well sorry we will definitely gather um but yeah the he uh it gets so bad right that once he's nailed the monument part the he argues that capturing vulture is his ticket to the avengers and so once Iron Man like flat out refuses all of it and expresses like immense disappointment and he says like you wanted to better Peter sees it as he's lost his chance to be an avenger and therefore a hero and then by the end of the film it's like no being an avenger has nothing to do with being a hero you're you are a hero you're gonna choose to go after vulture because it's the right thing to do not because you're gonna get the label of avenger and so that happens and then the end of the film is basically confirmation where he's like oh yeah i've got what i want but i don't really care anymore that's not what he wants and then you know i've highlighted before people see it as a contradiction in infinity war that he accepts the whole avenger mantle but again it's not uh it's something that's thrust upon him because he's actually putting himself in massive danger to protect the world he's an avenger by definition it doesn't matter if he's earned it via saving enough people or being enough bad guys and i think that if people watch that scene closely you get the the fact that the russos really do care because they really do um he gets told he's an avenger he smiles like almost giddily because he's gotten what he wants but then he like reassures himself that it's a duty thing and like stays doing and then moves on trying to highlight that he's come he's come a long way since his uh and this is the thing he might be like oh why is there so many you had to learn like and it's like ah well he's really young and this is probably the beginning of his duty like but it's we will get into that because i feel like this might be what shad might want to talk about but um it's consistent is is currently my argument that's all okay so it's it's it's all all the pieces are there the progression is there and it completes once he's had his um severe moments of being brought down second act style he's brought to his low point um so any thoughts basically no no i agree in terms of when you're looking at consistency you see a very very clear you know causal chain of events towards the end and the end the strongest part about it is that the end result does result in a stronger character and so you see what he had to overcome to get to but that does kind of lead into some of the thoughts about the characterization and why people might have an issue with it and things but again i don't want to derail was there anything any other broader strokes you wanted to point out that you liked about the film uh i like that the film has another journey simultaneously being the um the recognition of what what it's going to mean to have peter parker and spider-man in his life to like the first third ish of the film he's sacrificing peter parker for spider-man almost to the point where he doesn't want peter anymore he's wants to identify as the hero so he's like school is suffering miserably he leaves like five different classes he's not really talking to his friends his social capitals like plummeting and um he says he this is a line where he says school is boring when someone's asking if he's staying in it it's like the sandwich shop guy i think and he says that um school is not going to be a thing it's not going to be important once he becomes an avenger like peter's getting squeezed out and then obviously the the transition in the film is that spider-man gets completely removed and it's full peter and he's having fun again he's like you know builds the death star with ned he's he's being reliable with the the friends he's he's in school he's learning he's doing a lot it's like yeah everything's going great then at the end of the film it's uh that like almost you could argue a choice between peter and spider-man but then i would say that the the part that we mentioned earlier the uh the building falling on him thing is where he's incorporating them both it's like peter is the motivation to be he's who he is it's the it's the guy who says you you help people when they're in need and you do it responsibly spider-man is the vehicle that allows him to do so so he needs them both or at least that's that's a message i would have gotten from the film irrelevant of what i may or may not know about spider-man previously to this i just mean it's like a a relative hero's journey if you will and um yeah those two put together is him at the end fighting vulture is is another thing that i sort of see as a journey in the film but um what does everyone think um i wanted to comment on um the peter parker that they've got going on now because uh tom holland does a really great job both as portraying peter parker himself and spider-man to the degree of like i believe that he's a nerd you know it's like the thing the problem we have with the infamous andrew garfield is that he's got way too much social capital as peter parker he's like handsome as shit he's state boards he does sports he's got a girlfriend already and he's got a ton of friends and he's a popular kid it's like right and you you you want me to believe that he can put together all kinds of crazy gadgets and stuff and he's a genius like no sorry just a little too well-rounded for me but um tom holland does a far better job of portraying a nerd than previous iterations that we've seen before i would i would i um topi maguire did a pretty good job as peter parker but when he became spider-man he kind of like he shifted his personality like pretty dramatically like oh now he's quipping okay he wasn't doing that before not to any like extreme sense i don't know i didn't notice many quips in the uh ramy spider-man um you're out gobbie out of your mom yeah they weren't they weren't they weren't great that's such a bad one i mean compared to some of the quips spider-man has been out of ripout in many comics and cartoons i've watched like my my reaction to um every spider-man except the andrew garfield like i get your criticism of the andrew garfield and i agree the thing that i liked about the andrew garfield spider-man was that when he was spider-man he was a smart alec and he would you know make jokes and teas and and he came closest to capturing the spider-man biting wit that you know like that is established as characters supposed to have and i've found it lacking in the especially the ramy ones and even in the in the tom holland ones this is the mcu one you think it's lacking in the the scene where they're at you know so so what they do with the mcu one is he's more geeky and nerdy it's like whoa man you've got a robot arm and i really saw this old movie once and all this stuff and so he's very geeky in that sense of spider-man but he's not throwing out the jokes the uh what he's not throwing out the jokes when buddy i think this and throws the big door back in yeah like the the bank scene he's referencing the bank scene which has a lot of um like i think he says um like hulk good to meet you in person i thought you'd be more handsome yeah um when you're referencing that the robbers who are wearing the event oh yeah yeah so yeah that that scene yeah that was a good spider-man scene in terms of his wit i agree completely um we've got the fairy well sorry yeah is it a fairy uh yes a fairy because people were saying that it was british of me to refer to it as a fairy and i was like i'm pretty sure it is a fairy it is a fairy it's a boat you guys i don't know what you're talking about so uh what he's what he's like he hits uh uh the the new shocker and then he's like um he says something like wow the other guy was way better with that i mean dude you're just disappointing i'm shocked he said all right okay okay i i give that credit maybe i'm just not maybe my memory is just you know i got Alzheimer's or something you're not you're not the only one who feels that way uh i just don't know if it's something else that's making that feeling come up or if it's a matter of uh the quips aren't good enough it might have been far from home like i i how many quips are in there uh far from home had less quips in the um in the action that might be painting my perspective a bit yeah maybe there were less switch because he was frustrated with the whole scenario he's trying really hard to go on this vacation and he keeps being forced into being later we're gonna we're gonna go over far from home for sure i just want to say i don't want to spend for everyone homecoming now so i'm very appreciative of how i've what i've been able to say it because i don't talk too much and annoy people but um one thing we got to do to be fair criticism of homecoming um anybody and anyone can can drag as many out as possible at this so just just find find some by the only one who's gonna bring you up shad same rules though same same rules any ones uh in terms of consistency um why is the boat still float well in half that uh there's i don't know yeah i mean that might feel like i don't know i don't know if it would uh if you had the two halves falling the webs holding them together and then pushed back together fully by robots that are actually for all we know thrusting both yeah that's fair enough that's fair enough but it it was taking on water too like the the cars down below we're getting flooded and everything is like oh now it's above water now okay yeah no the water should not be gone once it seals up the one thing i will say though is that the criticism for me would then be like these people should probably be dead and it's like well they're surrounded by ferries so even if it was going under water like they would have been rescued there's like 20 ferries other ships or whatever yeah the water didn't go as far as to go into the crew quarters or anything like that i don't know cars real life accounts done don't tend to generally agree there was that like ship liner that you know not it only tilted on its side or something in it was me italy or europe or something yeah no i know what you're talking about yeah and a lot of people still died even with like admittedly that was a cruise ship with like 4 000 people on it whereas this is the area that i imagine yeah and as then just said like the car part was underwater everyone's in like the midsection there was a couple of people in the car park so we can assume this should have been a few deaths maybe yep all right so what you're saying is spider man's a murderer yes he is disgusting murderer um uh what else well see my criticisms aren't on the consistency side that's why i i just want to make sure if we go over it at least look if i really think about it's been too long since i've seen it you have the advantage of me sir because i'll need to watch it again and i don't know maybe if i watch it again i'll be able to point something out but there are a couple complaints about convenience like he's running the security program and he gets the door open on the 270 something try when there could be like potential i don't know if they say there's like potential thousands or not but there's a lot of potential outcomes and he got it on thingy so by probability he literally gets a better result than he could have but it's still not a what i would call a convenient one you know um then there's other conveniences like um that him and Ned put together were able to hack Iron Man's suit a lot of some people think it's a plot hole that they can do that other people don't see it as a convenience i see it as a minor convenience because there's plenty of information supporting that they would be able to do that what information just out of interest so peter's a teen genius who loves technology and he's in i believe robotics lab is one of the lessons he takes and then he's comboed up i don't know if i was to be devil's advocate here i'd say i'm not sure that equates to being out of hack something that just means is uh you know good at building things has got good mechanical skills not necessarily well yeah and i'm not i'm not criticizing you here shat but you didn't let me finish sorry i'm sorry i love you it's okay so he was he was tinkering with the suit uh the hacker if you will was ned the one on the computer he was the one that was doing all of that stuff while peter was just accessing the suit with us he had a couple of tools we see that do it later as well when Ned uh backdoors the phone network yeah ned is so and the suggestion is that together it's feasible they be able to do that and then you just have to call upon real life situations where uh high school students have hacked government like high value programs and stuff well good peri old chap um but okay so i mean again the counter to that is like tony stark's tech and you know um uh digital protections you would expect to be much better than the average government tony stark hacks the government pretty easily in the first avengers one and so again i could see people saying at ned's ability to hack stark's tech to be a bit of a stretch um i settled for minor convenience i don't know if fringy would settle for that um i guess it's a little bit convenient but it's not a plot hole because we see that he's pretty good at doing that several times in the film and they're both smart kids and i don't know there is precedent there is precedent for people being able to like okay yeah tony stark's really good but somebody would figure out a way to get in somebody always finds a way there was there was a guy in my discord going over rocket raccoon oh yeah no maybe but uh but yeah there was a guy in my discord trying to explain it from like a hacker's perspective apparently had like a lot of experience in the area it was like it's absolutely more than reasonable even with the the foundation that it's a fictional genius just because like everything no no no i'm not saying i'm right because i was sharing this anecdote because i found it interesting he was he was saying like every all code works on fundamental levels and that they're all crackable you just need the right you know like accessing here that to say like a bigger smarter better person made it therefore it's unhackable or even harder to hack isn't necessarily true that's what he was talking about but i wouldn't i don't know if you guys know anything about hacking because i don't well then there we go friend he describes things but you know then he starts talking really big words and then i get lost well my opinion i do think it's actually a larger contrivance but because it has so is it such a small thing in the overall plot and stuff and because not too much is hanging on the fact that he has access to the suit and there are a lot of other ways that they could have written it to make it i wouldn't necessarily concede that because really this activating the suit gives him Karen Karen identifies the Chitari core as a bomb and him knowing that gets him to the monument in time to save his friends from death yeah could you find out it was a bomb without Karen though potentially this is the thing you'd have to change the writing at that point it's getting hotter oh well i mean it's not you wouldn't have to change too much to no i'm suggesting that um we're dealing with what we've got right so but but necessarily he may have found out through just hanging out with the and well the thing is we don't even necessarily know that they all would have died if he hadn't turned up there half of them get saved before he gets the the web on them um we don't like we assume they died i don't know either way uh yeah that's a flaw undeniably it's just to what degree is sort of the minutiae there um another one people feel is the Tony's security was too low on his uh his transport ship at the end of the film considering the world he lives in oh that uh the ship in the finale the other one that has his like gear on it and stuff um was he doing anything on a software into things i thought he was like just you know physically getting in there and cutting his um i i know that um the tinkerer he there's like a decodron that they swore so the decodron gets sent and from the perspective of happy the decodron is the plane going on course whereas what when he gets in the ship he you know reroutes the uh the the plane to go where he needs it to go and there's also like this has been like an ongoing like the the tech he's he's been like having this ongoing idea for this thing for a while now so it's yeah it's easy to tell that he's had this idea for such a long time that he's like he put a lot of enthusiasm into making it work really really well yes so the pros well it was invisible wasn't it right so i'll just to make sure because like this comes from a lot of these these arguments are coming from one dude which he knows who he is if he's listening to this yes i appreciate you for bringing these arguments up because my god i was getting tired of my comics so thank you person you know who you are uh the the argument was in in favor of the event happening you've got phony's been doing this for a while so we assume it's just something that's functionally working having these jets doing this because it's not the only shipment is that they say it's the last one uh secondly he's carrying gear that is considerably underdated compared to what he's probably using now they say old hope hulkbuster armor a prototype shield and thaw's magic belt which can i just say i'm really annoyed i didn't get to see thaw's magic belt or like that i know right that sounded really cool like where are they um thaw's belt actually comes up in the comics in certain areas and so i was hoping that that could be forced in but yeah the uh so another argument is the the ship does the ship the jet does have defenses it's it's invisible it's got strong armor and um it's got a guidance system while being monitored on radar and visually from happy so it's like this it's not undefended and it's being attacked by someone who can fade through walls as a guy who's like tinkering with alien technology for eight years according to the film but it's more like five years is it in continuity is it five yeah five years so um there's a lot of reasoning for why it would occur that way but their argument is like why the hell isn't there a guard on board why isn't there more defenses significantly compared to what we're getting considering how much you should be defensive of this gear so what do you guys reckon it's hard to argue the point because it's taking assumptions based on um a character's perspective on the value of this and the stuff i mean i know there's a lot of instances where if you think that no one knows that this thing is happening you could disregard having defenses at all because the defense is the fact that it's a covert not who on earth could find out about it in the first place kind of thing um look i see i see their points but i do think it's hard to substantiate it with any level of validity well not to mention it's like if you're gonna put stealth on then why would you fill it full of guns and turrets and shit to take people out as well you know my argument as well was a stealth type jet you're gonna try why stop it like so if they said one bodyguard i'd be like wouldn't you just be arguing there should be two and if there were two it's like why not four and if there's four why not eight well how many is too many no no i'm not sure that's entirely no i'm not i'm not saying that's what they'd be doing i'm saying that's what we should be asking if we're gonna ask why isn't there access like because one guard is obviously better than none and if a two is better than one well the thing is but that does discount the fact that one is better than none and so if you have a guy who can get on board the plane one guy is probably not good enough you know like at that point you might as well cut my point my point is that uh it's at that point like why wouldn't you have an ironman set of drones surrounding the ship with invisible gear or whatever to really make sure it's okay yeah yeah yeah cost i mean like even they can't really apply to no i don't know two is better than one that doesn't discount the fact that one is better than none they wouldn't have heard anything from daba god i get that i don't think it would have hurt them to have a lot of things in addition but i don't think that the situation really for it that that's separate to the point it doesn't discount the you know the use the utility of at least having one yeah but all more yeah still doesn't discount like the utility of having one that's the point i mean i always say one is i just saying because you could have had two doesn't mean you shouldn't have one no that's not yeah but that's my point is that yeah maybe we should have one but why would we stop at one how many should there be cost effectiveness just this tony stark even even enough peace of mind give him give him a right right right that's important peace of mind so why would we not assume that he has peace of mind where it currently stands well again that goes back to what i was saying before you this is you can't you wouldn't be able to substantiate this point because you it's taken too many assumptions based on what the characters felt about the situation we don't know all right then um and then other than that i think i don't know i i think that you'd start to get really um sort of to minute details after those and they're pretty like they could be argued just small in the first place so um again this is only focusing on yeah no i was i was gonna say i a kind of perspective of consistency i think we're we're we're good on that so i let i i officially let you free shed what would you like to talk about in terms of other criticisms than the framework i was providing oh dear gonna take a lot of effort um because all right all right so let me let me let me try let me try okay now having said this this is me again just trying to uh share why i feel certain other criticisms can be valid not necessarily that i agree with them but i get where they're coming from all right um okay so i'll i guess i'll start with this one i might not be the strongest one but it does go back into the concept of why the very virtue of this being entitled spider man it's a spider man film and you know then how do you establish what a spider man film is well i think that's not too difficult because spider man is a very distinct character type but it does lead us into a more broader argument about how much adaptation can a character receive before it isn't like it isn't true to that character anymore and as a result you can say it is bad because i like i'm not sure you can just say separate those two entirely if the purpose of the film is to be an adaptation and it fails at that it does fail at one of the very reasons of this film existing and so i think it's a fair criticism then to say this isn't a good batman movie spider man movie or whatever and so the question is how much variation is allowed before um we can then say it's bad i think one of the first things are if it's a contradiction on what the character's meant to be i think that's a fairly valid one and i get an example i'll give right i'm not sure if you guys like bolognese spaghetti bolognese but is there a food that you particularly love we could just use this as an example though spaghetti bolognese pizza pizza see no pizza won't work because pizza is too broad spaghetti bolognese works because it's a very specific dish okay how about this one how about this one because i you uh i think i know where you're taking it so let's say sushi and you make sushi you make it with um instead of rice you use pasta and you wrap it up in a tortilla yeah and then you don't have fish you're getting exactly what i'm saying and like sorry you have spaghetti bolognese how many changes can you make to it before it's not spaghetti bolognese anymore it might look exactly like it but if the taste is different someone who is expecting spaghetti bolognese could rightly say this would be the absence of spaghetti would be the uh well that could be one of the core things as well like um because you could even make it out of icing sugar and make it look exactly like normal spaghetti bolognese but as soon as you taste it right so different to what you're expecting it might that might look like it but because it's different and again this comes back into the point of reference that i was talking about the point of reference that you're judging it by is is this good spaghetti not is it tasty sure because you know it could be tasty as anything but it's not spaghetti bolognese ergo this is crap spaghetti but it's so this is what i mean like how much variant do we allow and now if we apply it to spider man there is a core to spider man like that defines who he is and it is the great power comes great responsibility but there are other tangential fairly important elements to this character type as to what he's been established has there been poor you know adaptations even in the comics that betray that absolutely but that doesn't contrast sorry yeah i don't i really don't want to take you off your rails but i was just one curious question in the case of the bolognese um if you'd presented like the most amazing shepherd's pie and i ate it and i was like this wasn't terrible uh spaghetti bolognese and the bit with the way it's like okay and then i go but it was really good food like really good food and he's like oh well you know all right uh translated meaning homecoming's a really good superhero movie maybe not a good spider man movie is that ah but see this is important though because it does uh depend on what it is supposed to be again but also the the expectation as well if you were just after a tasty meal that satisfied you it was good but if you were really in the mood for spaghetti bolognese like like that's what you wanted and you got something different even if it was good even it was brilliant it didn't satisfy your desire to have subjective votes i was about to say wouldn't wouldn't the food still be good as in like well made and well constructed in every standard of a shepherd's pie but it would not but you didn't enjoy it it's not what you wanted it's not what you wanted so it would be subjective because what if i said that is what i wanted i wanted you to surprise me so it's good it's like getting a god i don't know if this is like no god would you be willing to would you be willing to call it spaghetti though well the thing is is um i think i think right so hang on even even the subjective thing i'm not sure that's actually subjective if you are legitimately in the mood for spaghetti bolognese and you don't get it's like how is that a subjective thing what do you want you didn't like no no objectively it is bad spaghetti that's the point well the thing is right like so bad i guess if we get to specifics right so what is i love that we're talking about food yeah this is this is peaky fabric right now the thing is um the thing is is when it comes to defining spider man um what if i just came along and said well i think spectacular spider man is spider man and that's what it should have been so it's a bad spectacular spider man adaption okay so the answer to that amazing fantasy you know 15 adaption or a bad um spider man 726 adaption you know what i mean like what okay yeah the answer that is that the overall consensus would define what it is and you and an individual wouldn't get to break that definition and so the person who makes you know icing sugar spaghetti wouldn't be able to say this is true spaghetti because everyone who looks is like and understands what spaghetti is like no it's not you can call it what you want it's not spaghetti um well i mean the difference would be that spaghetti has a very clearly defined like spaghetti is defined what it is yes that's why i chose it and so yeah it's but not really no yeah no no yes he does no no because somebody would agree with you and say well no then we could get in this point of reference then we can argue the specifics here and uh i hate appeals to authority and the stuff but like because you know i've read the comic books love the comic books oh sorry love the cartoons as well and everything like that looking at all these different like you could try and say some of different interpretations stuff like that there is a very very clear defined character type that is far more common one thing that establishes the what spider man is throughout all of these medians by definition that's that's subject to change then well yes this is the thing because i do agree that it's good to try and experiment like trying a different spice and spaghetti and stuff and so this is the question how much variation is allowed before it doesn't become spaghetti and you said something interesting in the last might have been the last stream mohler where the batman idea came up can batman not kill and stuff and you said you felt it would be more important to trade to stay true to the spirit of batman but that's very significant what you said i don't think i would have said that um the dog wrote it down i um i wrote this down when you said i was like okay are you sure i said that i don't believe that you said you said isn't it more important that batman's values remain intact that was your quote yeah but that's relative so if in in his car in in his continuity his values might involve killing people how do i call mohler saying that he hadn't had he couldn't kill people yeah when so i don't use the word spirit because spirit is too undefined to me yeah no the batman thing is interesting because batman like if you look at who batman is okay he's not necessarily defined by that he doesn't kill he's defined by his war on crime his you know desire to make sure what happened to him in the past doesn't happen to anyone else and this is where you can challenge the not killing yeah but then there are other people who say the thing is you're challenging um the an established element of batman's character based on something that is more true to his character and so you are able to argue that a change in this instance makes him more like what batman is defined as and it's in the whole change is based on making an accurate batman this is the argument because if batman's you know desire is to stop people going through what he did well a logical you know chain of events then is that if he killed the joker he would have saved a lot more lives if he did that the first time then you know um saving his life and lock him away and letting him break free and stuff and so there's an argument that can be had there that a change can make a better batman because it's based on what batman is this is my point and so and and the point is is that batman has a very clearly defined character i i don't agree i don't agree that batman like i don't and this is coming from someone who's read a decent number of batman comics because you can just i'm interested tell me why well like dark knight returns is probably a great example a lot of people cite that as the seminal batman story the best one and he's not the same batman he does kill people he's a lot more hardened and jaded and cynical and brutal um and then you have other people come along and say can i just interject here because what you just said there actually works in favor of my argument i don't think it does no no no because what are you defining as batman is like an argument can be made that him killing okay can serve his the purpose of batman better than not killing it's not undermining the the defined character well it depends because it depends because some people have the view that batman's fundamental conflict is that he won't kill people even if it's the the thing that he probably ought to do if he were to be expedient you know like that the question yeah you can argue that in an objective way by simply saying why doesn't he kill because as soon as you say why doesn't he kill you will come back to that more true element of his character and then you could say well just on the logic will you know because what what if you if the fun sorry you're cut out there mate oh if the fundamental philosophy of batman is i need to stop bad things from happening to people the killing argument is definitely valid yeah but then the killing argument becomes way more easy to justify you kill them and then that's the end they can't do anything anymore and yet that's not and yet that isn't like that that isn't necessarily the fun what what the fundamental is of batman is both variable because um because people have different views on it anyway but also because when you've got 80 years of material to pull from it's going to be different 30s and 40s and 50s batman is different from 80s batman which is different from current batman which is different yeah i think you give the tv series like the tv series is so i get what you're saying okay so the point that that i'm trying to reach here is that is there a change that is that's too much to the point where you would say this isn't batman for instance if what becomes an axe murderer instead of a vigilante trying to you know um fight for justice like he like he legitimately starts killing innocent babies why i guess um i guess uh oh yeah go ahead uh what if he doesn't kill but they completely changed why he doesn't kill does he start being batman then maybe that's that's an interesting you know uh proposition to explore like the the motivations behind a character are very important to define who this character is and changing those motivations can undermine that completely which is actually my issue with far from home um because spider man going back to spider man now his motivations who he is is more defined and more clear than even batman in my opinion he is a very well established character and and for good reason why because it's great his character type is just awesome there's a reason why so many people love spider man why i loved him everything and it's this isn't i don't feel nearly as subjective because these that make up the character types motivations that constructed this character type are so great so and it's an asp and i was talking to more about this before the character type of spider man is a type of aspirational hero example figure where he is more noble than the average person and and i that is established in very many iterations which has more solidified who spider man is now am i open to some exploration i honestly am this is why i was a bit more open to far from home than other people because far from home is more vulnerable he acts more like a kid he is people say it's more relatable i'm not necessarily i don't necessarily think that's an improvement per se it's an interesting different experience that i'm glad i experienced seeing a spider man that gave into remorse and fear and he was crying under the thing but that was different to the established character and i don't necessarily think it's better it was interesting i was open to seeing it and so this is like an example of an a difference a variation that yeah i'm open to seeing i'm not sure if it directly contradicts this character type which is why i'm still willing to say okay yeah maybe i'm willing to call it spider man still let's see where they go with it and then far from home happened and i was like uh okay so um uh so in the early issues of spider man there was a part where spider man wanted to make money so he wanted to join the fantastic four um so he infiltrated the baxter building he fought the fantastic four to show off how cruel he was and then he was bummed out when they told him that they that he wouldn't get paid for it is that that's in the comics yeah yeah your point spider man things to do yeah you know this thing you're absolutely right and i mentioned that there are examples in the comics where the the established character type is you know contradicted and that's bad okay is it bad though i mean no it was it was it was a if it like this would come into the uh even inconsistency argument well what if somebody came wrong and said the character is established to put other people's needs before his own and he has these motivations stuff like that and then he does something that outwardly contradicts it that that's bad writing it's me well here's here's the thing that you can say it's a plot well yeah but this is early in the comic so couldn't somebody say it is and it is a contradiction that spider man would put other people before himself because as was demonstrated earlier he wants to make money and he will make money by fighting the fantastic four and be showing himself off you know what i mean like that came first so the contradiction comes afterwards about him being you see what i mean like i could just i could do this like for instance if the mcu type of spider man became the only spider man adaptation that was ever made to the point where there is more content of the mcu spider man than the previous established one that would then overweigh the previous one and this would be what spider man is defined by the fact that there is a larger amount of content defining his character is and so clearly the the level the amount of you know um stories and everything we're trying to establish you what this character is has great influence on to how we define who the character is and so small little you know tangents where he contradicts this doesn't break what the established character is and is this way because it's good now like very related to this right is when people stray from this character type okay i'm open to them doing it like with uh homecoming but because the established character is so damn good there is a much higher chance in my opinion that they'll actually make an inferior spider man of an inferior version of spider man for specific reasons like character likeability even consistency and stuff like you mentioned the thing you brought up for years and inconsistency that contradicts you know the character type and stuff and so um it's not to say that they can't try an experiment but the fact that the what we already have is so good it doesn't make me wonder why but there's a chance you could improve on it yeah yeah no i sorry i was just i'm just reading the chat because um like the point that i was making was that um where right so you go earlier and spider man acts in a certain way and yeah he was trying to get money for me but it's not very responsible to fight a bunch of heroes to prove to prove how cool you are so that you can get money you know that's that's not particularly noble fighting a bunch of heroes to show how cool you are and yeah you're getting it for money so that you can help someone out but it's still not it's still not like a hundred percent altruistic but but the point that was trying to be made there was um okay so you you look at what comes earlier and spider man is defined a certain way and it's probably a little bit different to what it is now why would like the the frame of reference that's used to say well this is what spider man is changes depending on what section of the history of the character you're looking at no not the section no no not the concession the the overall consensus the general majority that the character type has been defined as well then i think i think at that point you're going to lose the argument no no i think your argument is that again i think your argument like let me let me just say i think your argument is like saying because spaghetti was made differently in one instance that it didn't taste like spaghetti means that you can't define spaghetti to taste a certain way and i'd say no of course not because spaghetti has a defined type same with spider man and even exceptions to when it wasn't true to that doesn't break the standard so if the argument is well the the more popular view of what he is is what he find as then that's an argument that the comics are going to lose because more people watch films than comics no because yeah they do no no no because i wasn't talking about the amount of people watching and and deciding who he is based on how much a group of people like it i've been defining his character by how he has been portrayed more largely in the specific iterations the character has arisen comic books cartoons even other movies so theoretically if tom holland made a thousand films of his version would he then be faithful because he'd be the majority representation probably yeah i said that before like if that's true why does it matter dude ah why does it matter because i think even having said that there is one different to another you can try and judge one to be objectively better than no i just what i'm referring to is that it's like it's literally based on like a ticked box it's not even like something that meaningful this is i'm i'm saying this is why it matters the previously established spider man in my opinion is a far superior character then the especially a little far from her one specific that's a that's a fair argument but it's a different argument no no it's related because it reinforces why you would want to stay true to this the comic book version because it's so damn good wait but okay and i can i give it like and we'll get to there but we'll get there as to the specific arguments why the you know established spider man character you know is better and you know comes off better and would have been better than say other attempted variations from that and i think that's so say for example we watched the new uh i don't know whatever film it's just like an action film espionage spy thing i could be like man this main character like he's just worse than like ethan hunt or even james bond or um just name a name a spy espionage thing i get where you're going well i would i could make the argument though and and i think that you guys would be able to hear it the problem is the fact that this is named spider man it creates a instant point of reference to judge it by if if this was a new a different superhero movie that there was no like things generally are able to um become seen as good if it's they're standalone and they don't have something where i especially something that's really good to be compared against for instance you could eat spaghetti and it could be really good and you think it's really good and you could say this is the best spaghetti i have ever had but that opinion is going to change instantly when you taste a you know version of spaghetti that tastes so spaghetti like but is a hundred times better than the one you ate before and so now because you have a better point of reference as to how good spaghetti can be the previous spaghetti you tasted was crap and that goes back into your kind of spy analogy and stuff um and so the fact that this is called spider man instantly creates a standard an expectation to be judged against people in the chat have made the argument apparently it can't be inconsistent like that the comics can be inconsistent and like that's literally the point that i made that's not my point i don't understand what's going on to rewind i i want to do a sort of overview so it was about making him accurate to spider man it's like who is spider man no no no wait let me do my whole thing and i know you might have problems with it along the way but this this is i just want to do the whole thing okay i'll key you in so um uh tom holland spider man suffers because it's not like the spider man from the comics and they're like so specifically there's a few arguments to tackle with that one it's like uh which comics specifically because if the comics are inconsistent that's a problem how how close does he have to be and what is the spirit you know etc we've we've gone over a couple of them we came to who he is understood to be by the majority of people similarly to the bolognese thing not people not people by the majority of the story the works okay so the majority of the works so then um once we've identified that it's that's subject to change based on just the amount of tom holland content you said it was the better written is the preferable yeah yeah so theoretically there could be one extremely well let's just say the spider man you like what if there's only one issue of that and the rest of them were like this really awfully written show and you said to me like well the well-written one is inconsistent so i don't care like with with the majority of the works and i'd be like but shed that's like the best one no good point interesting one generally we like to define what something is by its best version don't we not not this worst so yeah i kind of agree like i guess the thing is it's like because adaptation argument what if you what if we take something that's bad you adapted and make it good would you then say that it's it's right but but this this is the whole thing it's it's where you need to try and make the separation between good or bad adaptation and good or bad story no because i feel they're actually very tight i don't well let me explain why and i'm just kind of just reiterating what i said before is because because it's called spider man we now have something to judge it against okay if we didn't have anything to judge it against it could be that one of the best films we have seen but by instantly having a point of reference the other spider man's we could now compare him okay how noble is he how heroic is he how is he this how is he that is he comparing to the character type that's been established that is already so damn good and if he's not meeting up we can say well this is inferior it's not as good agreed wait wait wait wait agreed though but what if what if we live in a world where there's only one issue of spider man is tom holland's version and there's this other whole set of comics called um arachnid man right it's completely unrelated but we're having this conversation today and i go guys far from home is pretty shit and then you go why it's like well have you have you read arachnid man it's basically spider man but it's way better and i i i might be right i might very well be right and i could argue how they've done the arcs way better the characters have much more stakes or etc etc but um you guys would be like okay but can you explain what's wrong with with spider man in his own story and i'm like well i'm i want to reference him to a better character which is fair but then you're comparing writing you're not comparing adaptation the response yeah the response you would be able to say in this instance is that and say that's fine but i would it's still a good spider man movie you can't say that if arachnid man is you know we're willing to concede we're willing to concede it might may very well be a bad spider man movie but we're not willing to concede that it's poorly written i'm also no no because again no no no i see see i think i think you actually might be able to say um have a different you could judge it differently that it is poorly written again based on point of reference now Mount Everest is only big when you compare it to yourself if your point of reference now is Jupiter it's very small and so if you're comparing the writing to something that's already existed that is the massive uh of Mount Everest is identical regardless of whether you compare it to Jupiter or an atom it's the same no matter what yeah again this goes back into a more philosophical argument as to how do you define something as good and it has to be compared to something else more there's more general um point of reference is consistency and i agree completely i just don't think it's the only one characterization is another big important one and the character of Peter Parker is the point that most people are scrutinizing here yeah and the arguments you've been presenting to us ultimately to me come across as suggestions for better writing not suggestions for a better adaptation that's a coincidence how do you mean that's a coincidence because so in the case of arachnid man it's not an adaptation but it's better written just because arachnid man is called spider man that thus means it's a better adaptation it's like no it's about the writing it's always about the writing being better in that comic it wasn't about the fact that it was meant to be spider man do you know what i mean i'm trying to understand it because when i look at the spider man arachnid man comparison like if you never saw arachnid man you could you sorry what the hell night monkey night monkey all right so if you never saw arachnid man and you only saw spider man which we uh you know is the comparison to the mcu one and you thought it was great that's great you know it could be the best move you've ever seen but as soon as you see something better than it you now have a point of reference to compare it against and it can legitimately you can is like you look at it's like well it's obviously a worse film than i you know assumed because i've now seen a higher standard that it could have achieved and it didn't get there um so i'm trying to highlight like uh when you say the comic man is better than than film man i'm like uh there's many ways you could argue it that's one of them you could say the the the colors guy is better than the other different colors guy the comic version is better than the film version um these things are all sayable but the important part is the writing which is necessarily considered the the better or worse writing what i'm trying to highlight is this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with adaptation well see i think it's intrinsically connected because it creates a standard that has that it will always be judged against because it's the same thing but have you ever seen spider-man before and it's the only yeah i've already given examples if you've never seen you yeah again because you don't have the stand yeah but what i mean is like what i mean is the um they let's say you get somebody who's never heard of spider-man they watch the film and they explain this is the writing these are the characters this is what works this is what doesn't plot holes pacing etc and it's like this is the conclusion based on assessing this film on as its own thing and then you're like okay well here's here's the spider-man comics it's like okay um that doesn't change the assessment of the film because the film was assessed based on what is in the film as its own thing i'm gonna crack through this because i know i can do it so when we said who who spider-man is you can you can reference the comics you can talk about his spirit and that it's inaccurate compared to the film one and then we get to talk about why that matters or why whatever i also said i'm gonna make it a different point overall so uh you can make that argument and we would we would be discussing the spirit versus the other spirit and an accuracy to the spirit but you uh we moved on to the majority of the works which again is another consistent argument if we can judge it but then the idea that it changes based on the the amount of one other one uh was changed then into you said that the but that spider-man is better and it's better because it's better written i would imagine not because it's better as a previous incarnation there's nothing what i'm trying to say is remove adaptation from this argument and your argument still stands yeah yeah like because that's what i'm saying that um the uh the mcu one and my issue is far from home is an inferior spider-man that i could make an argument for irrespective of the comics for x y and z but because the comics exist i have a point of reference to show yeah this is how better it could have been because but i would say that especially you freeing i and and potentially does bullshit i'm not sure how familiar he is with like lots and lots of stories but we've got references all over the place for like loads of different types of villain for example like why is vulture so much better than um iron monger like oh we'll talk about his motivation his connection to the character his place in the world how it's much more meaningful than just bleh like i want to take over the world i'm crazy person whatever so if we'd never seen anything before and we saw iron monger on his own we might say like well they the film said he was crazy so it's pretty consistent i guess it's like yeah it's not particularly it's particularly thin and what i wouldn't need to say ah but it's a poor adaptation of vulture or something like this you don't make an adaptation argument making a writing argument i think i think it's funny right because um vulture in in homecoming isn't really an accurate adaptation of vulture from the comics yeah like a lot of people don't think vulture is very good he's kind of like a c-tier villain he's kind of like on the level of shocker you know and i appreciate the argument that the comic guy is better written by the way i think that you may be right it's just not something to say something's better than another thing doesn't make the thing bad oh i don't know let's see that again comes right into how do you determine value like um 10 out of 10 is a lot okay if 10 is the highest number but suddenly if it's 10 out of 100 it's really low the number hasn't changed but because you're comparing against something higher but you agree with the concept don't you something being better than another thing doesn't make the thing bad in isolation we'll see that's really hard to do it can we can categorically because it's only dependent on your standard what you're comparing it against and so that's tough i'm not sure but like what i'm suggesting is it both can and can't like it just it depends on the context every time perhaps like perhaps both you know um well you know what i mean like you know seven is better than six but six is still above five so it's like above mid yeah yeah i know exactly and the issue is like i guess it's if okay this might this might make more sense it's if a higher standard exists or not will determine if you're right or not i would say more um because like 10 out of 10 is is high because there's nothing like you can only be higher if something else exists that's greater than it if nothing else is greater than it absolutely um then it can't change but if something exists that is greater than it well then you can't help but inform your determination if it's good or not based on the we usually always compare things against them the highest the most successful like you know it's the world record that we're comparing everyone else's times against and as soon as that world record is raised that then instantly changes the status of every single record that's gone before like the first row the real record that was before that was the best the best unbeatable but as soon as someone pushed higher than it it's not and our objective ability to judge the value of the previous record has been permanently changed uh yeah so like say i don't know you're you had a sport where you had to drop a bunch of balls into a hole and the guy who had the record for 100 was that and then for a million years no one could beat it objectively he's the best and then some guy does 102 and it's like oh he's not objective well fuck it some guy does a thousand like not only is he not objectively the best he's not even close to objectively good at this point at least within the standard of the results exactly and i feel you can't escape that reality even when looking so that's what me and fringy and potentially a lot of other people and maybe they were other people wouldn't uh would be you've created a standard that is subject to change thus subjective the plot holes one is not subject to change that the current state is the objective standard just because you can you can be objective to a standard because kind of what you're trying to say here i feel is say even far from home home coming is you can argue is better is you're saying this is good because we are not regarding the higher you know record that's been already established and it might be because you haven't read the other comic books you haven't had experience with it i don't know like and i don't think that's entirely fair to say but it is like saying the the record of the 1950s 100 meter run is still the best because it was best in that time even though we've surpassed it now it's like you're trying to disregard the highest standard it's being compared against and i'm not sure that's fair but i wouldn't uh not maintain what you just said i would call it the best it would be the best by definition um if if uh homecoming is the only film that existed would you be like would you concede it's the best film in existence i'd be like it's also the worst film in existence it's like okay now there's two i'd be like yeah we can keep the standard going but objectively you know good i'm usually referring to just storytelling being consistent or inconsistent because of all these other ones which we've feasibly uh fairly brought up like um an assertive character versus a passive one all these different sort of modifiers i agree with you that typically one one factor may be more admirable than another or more likeable for an audience but um none of these things will objectively be superior to another because of the fact that there'll be exceptions depending on writing and context which isn't a problem see see that that point right there i'm not sure i agree with um because the exceptions are usually the exceptions that by definition means they are the majority that which then establishes the general consensus to be objective over i think um i think a good can would be so we have gravity we have our theories and understandings of gravity and how it works and it works in a way that is 100 predictable basically like um at least in in the normal sense if i dropped an apple and it went up like if it went up it's like cool now this theory no longer works needs to be completely redone it's no longer a standard that works when one exception disproves the rule the rule has to be completely reexamined so unless unless unless you're able to find out that 60 at the time no you say let's say 80 of the time when you let go of the apple it will fall down and 20 of the time it will fall up well it means that your theory is deficient it means no no no it goes back to the no no it goes back to the percentage thing it means that you're able to still judge an objective standard based on no no it doesn't once once you once it becomes entirely unpredictable like once it becomes unpredictable and unexplainable that it doesn't work anymore the theory is no longer objective it's now you have to figure out a new theory because it's not because you can work on the percentages so of course you still can't no no you can't because it's no longer an objective standard if it doesn't work for instance quantum no quantum mechanics we know that yeah right but there's a thing no we know what you don't have the full picture we're working off the percentage scale that we know at this it's this percentage likelihood that a particle will appear here and so we're working off an imperfect thing but it still works yeah and you could still be objective to it what i'm what i'm saying is like the science is working towards a 100% sort of standard for those things they're not like well you know 80 20 that's pretty good we'll leave it there you know what i mean wait to clarify then right just to make sure because i feel like make sure all of us are on the same page and all of chat and i think we all understand the same thing we're using different words so two streets one is lit up one is not uh 60 of the time going down the dark one will kill you 90% of the time it won't on the light one objectively take the light one it's the better road objectively you'd be like yeah but you can die 10% of the time it's like yes meaning that objectively it'll be more likely that you'll survive on that road but it will not actually be objectively the better one in every case that is what you're saying right shad yeah yeah so we're saying that when you are trying to analyze something you've identified that ah there is a light road in this and there is a dark road in this the light one is better why the light one is typically better that's not why it's better though you've just identified why it's typically better but hang on that would make it better yeah but that would make it better though no it would make it typically better you have to analyze it okay but then that so then you would have to go into the specifics yeah to determine exactly which we which we can we could do we could go over the tom holland spider-man versus the karmic spider-man and i think that's fair yeah but um would you not agree at that point though if you identified an arc with loads of like setups payoffs all talking about all the journeys and different things comparing it to holland would you not eventually agree that we're not even talking about adaptation at that point you're talking about quality of writing with character versus character well see i don't know i'm not sure you can just disparate like i'm not disregarding i'm asking you an honest question would that not be what we would be doing in that scenario okay well so hang on repeat it again i want to understand so if if you chose this character from this comic book saying this is the one they're adapting from and it's a poor adaptation let me explain why and you explain to me why it's really well written in the comic versus poorly written in the film then you've you've identified a well-written character versus a poorly written one rather than a poor adaption but i don't know this i don't think the same thing well i guess that's our point is that you could have a poorly adapted thing that's actually better written yeah oh okay let me try and process that so you on your like so on a different scale and you know i could agree with that but the then the point of contention would be is the mcu one yeah no and that's the conversation to be had because yeah because i feel absolutely you can improve upon source material and and generally when you improve upon it most people will happily define that as the new standard like if this mcu spider-man was actually better than the comics i think most people will say this is what spider-man is this is the thing we're going to judge everything against from now on and so the quantity argument becomes irrelevant then well no i think it's a bit of a balance having said that like it would have to be pretty darn like good to be out of define but what it what in if that scenario took place if we argued let's just say for 10 years it took really long to identify every single factor and you eventually said and i'm not saying this is possible even i'm just saying a theoretical you said huh tom holland spider-man is the best version of spider-man but it's still badly written because of poor adaptation would you would you still maintain that no um if but if tom horn was able to be a selfish to be a better version based on you know many defined objective things yeah but that's kind of what i'm judging it already on that i feel judging it on objective standards already it's inferior and my and one of the points that i'm comparing it against is the previous spider-man or you know the established spider-man yeah if he was better i'll i'll be happy with that i i want like the and but yeah i want all the things i like to be better to be improved upon if they can it's very difficult when it's already very good and generally attempts to improve on something that is brilliant usually results in inferior adaptation or inferior you know version all right spider-man is unique in how good it is like i guess a character there's a reason why it's popular they like it i mean when i say unique that's going too far there are other things that are equally as good but yeah um would you like to so we can move into far from home oh no wait actually so is everybody as weird as this would everyone like to watch a small video it's only 10 minutes i would love to my friend yeah don't feel bad if you have like for people who want uh death bullshit to talk more like i don't i haven't talked a lot either it's just because the reason we're all here is a very specific reason and if if the reason is being fulfilled it's not on me to interrupt it just because i haven't spoken enough you know yeah like i don't want to force myself to talk too much because like to be perfectly and totally honest with it's like we had gone to that conversation once went to one and then looped straight back around to where we left and so it's all like well you know i've already kind of given what i wanted to say in like the short verse but i don't really have a whole lot of attachment to the adaptations even though i did grow up with spider-man cartoon it's a big ongoing argument we will not solve it in this stream but i think we've i think we've made good progress we got i think we have i really do i don't agree yeah i do agree with chad that there does have to be a certain aspect of something in order for it to be a proper thing like spider-man and batman if it's spider-man he has to have the costume he has to have the webs and he has to climb on the walls stuff like that but then like you know just how far do you bring it you know it's like does he does batman have to kill or not kill does is his does his reasons for doing what he does have to be the same all the time because i feel if we go too far then the adaptations will be too close together and we won't have any interesting stories yeah and i would concede that you're right but i would always identify it as a poor adaptation it may still well be it may still well be written it may still well be well written english is hard yeah and i absolutely agree and on that point i say that homecoming is very good in that respect like you know how about having a 15 year old theater and everything just to get a quick answer from you more so hopefully we won't go too far on this but if the purpose the intent of the um the writing is to be a good adaptation and it's not wouldn't you say then that that's a failure in an element of the writing that would highlight how important intent is and then the concept of death of the author i suppose yeah i guess what would happen if john what said nah i wasn't trying to be accurate but what's good now i guess well again then then the obvious answer then is why the hell even call it spotted yeah but what that's moving the goalpost at that point because it was well what's the intent and yeah i'd have to ask creator said whatever the answer to that question is does it change the result getting an answer to that question see i'm not sure like because by the very virtue of it being called spider-man or star wars or whatever irrespective of the intent of the writer he is not going to be out escape the fact that it needs to be a star wars movie or a spider-man movie and stuff and it actually speaks more to the fact that if they intentionally diverge from what these properties are it's far more likely it's going to be bad will receive even received as bad and stuff like that as a result and that reflects on the writing like i'm not sure yeah i guess we're just repeating ourselves now i still not sure that you can separate oh well i mean dude from the quality of writing if you convinced us of its quality if you convinced us or we convinced you it's gonna redefine how one of us one of these sort of sides it looks at media as a whole so it's not something that's going to come in a couple of sentences in an argument and i hope i hope chat understands that by the way this is a very like i love this conversation but everyone's like oh it's like calm down calm down it's okay they really want us to cover the video so the one the reason why we had to do this before the video is because he's going to make certain statements me me and fringy are going to go one way shad might go the other and so it's good we've got our foundation done so we understand why we go the other ways also someone said the intent is important you can't critique a book for not being a movie a book is a book a movie is a movie you can't critique a book as a movie because that would be critiquing a horse as a car it's impossible you can't do that if someone was to do that they'd be wrong they'd be incorrect they'd be invalid it's not a standard that applies there is nothing i mean i guess if they they'd be right to a degree but it would be something that not many people would would would even want to listen out for i think another one that i saw well just go on that that's exactly what i was saying with the comparison between pride and prejudice and um return of the jedi okay is that these are two very different things that are held to two very different standards and so you know how can you compare them against well i mean if someone what was that like what was the comparison if a book tool movie or if a horse you can't complain if a horse was not a card or something like that if you're trying to sell the horse as a cart and people get a horse instead they have you know absolute validity to complain about it i i like that one uh if they were to make an adaptation of mohler that advocated for subjectivity would it not be a bad adaptation of mohler regardless of how good the writing is i agree it would be a poor adaptation of me but it could be very well written see my point my point right there is that that intrinsically affects the the ability like your judgment of the quality of the writing is inherently connected with what it was supposed to fulfill and it's not fulfilling i concede that it affects only has 10 minute videos to i can see that it affects intrinsically the a vast majority of the audience's ability to enjoy it but it doesn't affect the quality of the writing well quality being the the operative word that's one of the elements you're judging the writing on is how effectively it's when we say objectively we're trying to remove that element entirely how much people are enjoying it i'm not sure i'm not sure you can by the very virtue it's called spider-man or mohler or whatever that standard is connected and you can't break through break pass it you have to change the name completely but you agree like say for example finn saying um it's impossible for them to track us through hyperspace and in the next scene saying yes i mop the engine of the hyperspace sorry i just sorry i just saw a chat from my editor os is in chat he's not me guys he has my symbol and i might come up with a university don't believe him but um yeah sorry so uh finn saying um it's impossible for them to track us through hyperspace and then in the next scene saying yes i can take us to the hyperspace trackers um whatever thing to disable it we highlight this is a plot hole because he lacks information he's supposed to have in the previous scene for a dramatic reveal when he's had the information the whole time this also brings up another issue of him not having warned everybody previously since he's aware of it we don't need any feelings we don't need anyone's reactions to identify that as being a flaw you'd agree with that right yeah i agree completely and i don't think you need anyone's feelings either to say that if this is called spider-man it's going to be judged against every other spider-man that's gone before and it's and it's quality to be a spider-man thing because what spider-man is is fairly established objectively um and if it fails at certain beats even in small areas and stuff like that that you can absolutely judge the writing quality as a result because it's called spider-man you can't escape that as soon as it's called spider-man you have linked it to comparison which is going to be a way in which you judge the quality of writing um separate to you know uh consistency um we probably need to highlight the argument of continuity then as well like uh you you bringing in adaptation arguments we would consider them irrelevant because it's a separate continuity but it's still called spider-man it's still called spider-man because he's got the suit and there's the power and again it goes back to the whole how many changes can you make to spaghetti for it not to become spaghetti and you know and i'm an i'm a spaghetti extremist where i can say you can call it whatever you want it will not change the quality of the food in terms of craftsmanship depending on well you know like if it's in a bin and it's all fallen over then it's not really fair but it's a very interesting argument and uh we are repeating ourselves so whether it is something or whether or not it's good two different things and we've we've gotten i think yeah i think we have somebody's not in somebody's not in the watch together who is it who's the naughty man oh that would be me i'm sorry hang on you're a bad person i i think you guys have argued your points very effectively and uh i guess now it'll just well they're gonna i want you there and i didn't do shit go me so the video we're watching is called homecoming is a bad spider-man movie by a man named itop films um now the concept as we've been discussing it the concept alone of it being that could be interpreted as it's inaccurate to the comic book spider-man which is not necessarily something that we will be arguing against it's the evidence that one brings in like if i told you game of thrones is a bad adaptation of lord of the rings because uh this character is inconsistent with knowledge they had in this other scene you might be like what does that have to do with lord of the rings you've just highlighted bad writing that can actually be confirmed or denied like it could be like no they knew that because of this or they didn't know that because of this so he's gonna bring in references and we're gonna decide whether or not they're actually valid references for the supporting his argument is essentially the idea that's what we do with all videos pretty much yeah let's get into it all right exciting time yeah so we're finally watching a movie two hours we did it well yours fun is the chat of blissfully unaware that me friggin chat of how this is probably our fourth conversation on this topic yeah but what they may not understand is that we've got fuel for days for talking about this because it's our fundamental interest and i was trying to hold back certain certain you know wildcards and you guys parried well and stuff like the whole they they're pride and prejudice and um well return to Jedi analogy and the spaghetti analogy i was holding those back for the live stream yeah i period that uh i paired that movie analogy with who never seen it it's fucking it's a great weapon man is everybody ready yeah i think so here we go i'm getting an ad oh you are spider-man home yeah oh no okay it looks like an ad but it's not yeah it's not the same thing spider-man movie now before you start smashing your keyboard calling me a hack chill out grab a joint or a beer a freaking banjo i hate when they're like oh before you do this it's like shut up man yeah you know you let me decide when i do this yeah i will you i preface so much in so many videos you're just trying to get ahead of certain arguments you know that coming yeah i get it i think spider-man movie is a good movie it's fun funny heartfelt and contains one of the strongest villains in the entire mcu hey the acting is pretty solid from pretty much every lead especially tom holland holland perfectly embodies a youthful teenager the writing is entertaining throughout and the pacing is pretty perfect the movie never drags and never moves too fast man this this sounds like it'll be right up your alley uh shad seems to be he's on board with it but yeah it's going good so far i walked out of the theater thoroughly entertained and excited for what's to come but then when i got home something was off one might even say my spidey senses were tingling so i did as any man does when he is confused i turned on my favorite slick spider-man 2 now you're probably saying to yourself you my dear fellow are a ramy fanboy so um this may be confirmed or denied as we go forward but uh there is such a thing and it would probably mean that they're unable to view past or future spider-mans beyond ramy um which isn't necessarily it could be that the ramy film for him has established a higher world record that he's comparing it against that others might not be considering so i wish perhaps we shall see which you are biased indeed i am so take this video as an opinion not a fact and yes it depends if you say factual things my friend we'll see bud we'll see george if i say it's my opinion the two plus two does not equal four i don't know that okay we get yeah you can absolutely still challenge the opinion if it's wrong voices can't you can say things that are just provably false whether you say it's your opinion or not you know what i mean yeah the defense of it is saying don't take it personally if you disagree because that's absolutely true where the defense works is if shad says something like what do you think a far from home and i go i really liked it and then he goes you're wrong i'd be like i'm not wrong what i liked it you can't yeah that exactly it wouldn't even make sense at that point i wouldn't i wouldn't need the defense um spiderman homecoming featured the penguin and it was bad it's like you know it's like whoa okay i'm open to it so take this video as an opinion not a fact and yes video essays can be opinions how many flippant argument essays have you written in school essays can be biased and yes i am biased i believe spider-man two is a cinematic masterclass in character story directing tone and everything in between back to the point i watched spider-man two then read spider-man blue and the old dick cope books and came to the solid conclusion that spider-man homecoming is not a great spider-man flick let alone a good one not a good spider-man flick let alone a good one implying that it's not a good flick in general no no not a good spider-man flick is still comparing it against the well so the sentence was it's not a good spider-man flick let alone a good one wait wait let me hear it again i might be wrong i might be wrong may have hit that wrong and the old dick cope books and came to the solid conclusion that spider-man homecoming is not a great spider-man flick let alone a good one oh so you're saying it's not even a good spider-man flick okay okay it's not great not even good okay so it's still comparing against the standard of what spider-man is yeah all right okay but he's the only spider-man who embodies the youth of a teenager yeah i know he's actually a high school and not a 30 year old yep gotcha he quips like peter parker toby never quipped well you're wrong on that one that's a cute outfit did your husband give it to you but hi top that was the only one it's like the only one don't you don't forget the gobby one you did say gobby this probably there's gotta be more than that right i feel like there's a lot more than that there's a lot more than i i want plenty i want to get a list now guys in chat give us a list of the quips in ramy is there any is there any in the final fight when just just as he arrived does he say anything to green goblin i can't remember i don't think so in the final fight now he pretty much beat the shit out of him at that point i mean like when he arrives at the bridge does he say anything like you're an asshole gobby there's like no in spider-man 2 there's like i the one i remember is um when doc ock comes to the bank and is fighting and he throws a bag of money at him and he catches and throws it back and says here's your change yeah that one's lame all right there's not there's just that was lame it didn't it wasn't funny i don't think it's that i refuse to acknowledge that because of how poor upon that was maybe it was the delivery like i would honestly though with high top tends to he argues the whole um we'll go into this in a little bit later there's a tweet but he argues the whole like no perspective is right or wrong everyone takes what they did so you can so the person saying he doesn't quip and he said well you're not right or that would i'd be like well it's their opinion doesn't it that he didn't quit you know what i mean like obviously he doesn't apply to that standard because no one should it's it's silly to be like nothing is provable because there are things that are provable absolutely we never quit well you're wrong on that one that's a cute outfit did your husband give it to you anyways spider-man homecoming is not a good spider-man movie for three big reasons oh calm yourself calm yourself do we want to do we want to discuss this before we have his input hang on hang on i saw two consequences the suit and what the mcu the mcu well well we'll let him we'll let him argue it but no i'm assuming you guys have heard this one that there's no it's funny sorry go yeah well you go ahead my thing's gonna be like an intro to something i was gonna say i'm mostly on board with him but his reasons i might disagree with yeah when he goes into the specifics uh yeah so this is you know and i'm going so far because like i said i like far from home is nowhere near as bad no what the hell am i saying this nearly as bad as far from home okay far from home is the one that i have the issue with so coming is far more defensive a lot of people are so sad would you make this argument uh spider-man homecoming lacks consequence for any of peter's actions in both the short term and long term no i wouldn't make that argument um okay i'll have to stand in well what i wonder if his argument is going to be the type of consequences based on the type of decisions peter is making is different and therefore not true to the true spider-man that might be more defensible but we'll see okay well you're not yeah okay we'll uh we'll let him because that's two different conversations so i can't we can't account for them all we'll just let him decide the conversation yep in this movie peter makes a plethora of mistakes he indirectly destroys the sandwich shopping queens and no one dies not even the cat he seemingly doesn't feel yes but the robbers get away yeah and he didn't mean to do that but you would say it's convenient that no one died uh there was one guy there the idea that the laser hits his shop in one line we go back to how big the explosion was in the laser shooting and stuff like this movie peter makes a plethora of mistakes he indirectly destroys this but that's that's okay so no one is in there maybe yeah the assumption would be that the because it is his grocery store whatever the guy saves but the assumption would be that he's not in the main area he would be in some kind of bathroom he wouldn't expect him to be in there if he was in the main room he'd be dead because that's probably quite significant and a lot of those places if they live in their shop they live upstairs typically yeah he is downstairs remember because in the scene he's on the like uh what's your emergency uh spider man spotting the avengers that's true that's true oh oh he's he should be dead well i mean if he's in there if he's in that building when that happens he should be dead well you can say it's like convenient that he's lucky but i don't say yeah so you can you can absolutely say it this could be a valid point of criticism no no i was gonna say you can say it's convenient the guy didn't die but it's still not without consequence because the robbers leave they get away because of peter's mistake so he's he has to face consequences still it's been too fast since i watched this film because what like does peter run out to try and see what happened in the explosion like their robbers go because of that he goes over to the shop to see if the cloak's okay and then he pulls them out yeah yeah that's one so um just to stay stay focused yeah the uh is there no consequence for peter having destroyed this building it's like well he has to go and make sure the person's okay because that's entirely tied to his character and by doing that the robbers escape which completely delays his ability to figure out what went into it much later you know up into the party when he gets like i'm not trying to be um some kind of apologist here i'm literally just like that is a consequence right like what are we talking about here it is consequence see see my my point if i was to be annoyed with this which might have validity i generally am annoyed by heroes that are only doing solving problems that they themselves are creating that's a it's generally a bad you know a hero because they're basically a bumbling idiot causing as much harm as they are doing good and so i generally yeah that rubs me the wrong way and and then it's kind of a balance how many mistakes they're making how much good are they doing things like that uh and so this is a problem that peter caused is it well i guess technically it's him and the robber put together the robbers um the robbers had the gun in the first place i mean this is probably the least consequential thing that happened yeah this is the opening of the new one to the deli owner yeah no yes for him yes but i mean in terms of the plot this is if some random superhero he tried to stop the fight on the beep here across the road and blow up my houses or a song and the robbers got away loads of people loads people in chat are arguing that the robbers getting away isn't a consequence like it's not it doesn't count how does it not count are you guys like unaware of so the idea is that peter wants to stop the bad guys he lets the bad guys escape that's um like that's not good the argument could be made that more harm is caused by his attempt to interfere which would be another yeah um i would concede i would concede that the consequences could have been higher yeah but i still think it's invalid to say there are no consequences from this moment we all agree at least agreed on that yeah just gotta make sure i'm trying to determine like so this scene it can be considered good because it serves a larger narrative of him trying to be a better hero um it's not a sin you could cut i don't think i think it's an important scene because it establishes he learns you can define consequences is literally any reaction to any action so he's trying to prevent robbers from stealing money and he prevent he's fails to capture them that's pretty consequential would you guys not agree yeah yeah because the guy doesn't die that the consequence isn't high enough yeah which is bullshit i'm sorry see if i was to criticize this scene i would try and approach from the angle of is it necessary and what is it doing to establish peter's character it is necessary but i don't know but to be effective to be competent to be incompetent so i'd need to judge it according to all those different things but as to saying there's no consequences no that like i wouldn't approach the criticism from this angle if that makes sense it isn't a grave consequence i agree yeah let's continue yeah okay he makes a lot worse one in this movie peter makes a plethora of mistakes he indirectly destroys the sandwich shopping queens and no one dies not even the cat he seemingly doesn't feel guilty that he destroyed this man's livelihood everything's fine he ditches net it loses party in the net um i suppose the visibility to that i can agree with we don't we don't get any scene for him to reconcile that it that has happened to that man no they went to stay remember they went to what sorry um he's walking he's talking to Ned he walks past the shop and he sees the shop is destroyed and there's a little moment there where's like he's he's sort of recognizing that they kind of have a joke at the end of that scene too but yeah there is a scene where you see the shop the day after it got destroyed i don't disagree though that the idea that there's no maybe we could have used it maybe a scene where peter gets to talk to the guy um yeah i think so so i agree with that he destroyed this man's livelihood everything's fine he ditches net it loses party in the net forgives him the next day everything's fine yeah so he knows what's up yeah so i've heard this a lot that and i always ask the question of like so what should net have done like just not be friends with him i'm confused net has a problem that he did it but net understands immediately it's like oh you did it because you were nearly killed and you're trying to help people okay i get it and the consequence is the loss of social capital too yeah peter as a result is now less trusted and less relied upon and many more people and before someone says they're not significant consequences this movie is scaled down entirely it's not about life and death but i mean there's still a death in it but that should highlight how different this movie is the fact there's only one it's a it's a friendly neighborhood scent so the consequence is already well go ahead yeah the counter to it as well is that the fact that um ned was able to you know get over that so quickly is a character building moment for ned the character himself to make him more likable more appealing to establish right and stuff and so there is a logical counter to that so well i mean not to mention ned you mean you've seen ned geek out over the whole fact that he knows who spiderman is and everything like that so it's a good friend and he is a good friend he's stuck by peter the most out of all of his friends in the world why would he suddenly ditch over like something that he even understands is going on so it was highlighted to me that um isn't it significant that the the robbers are still out there with those weapons like there's still a consequence i mean i'm pretty sure we conceded that i was just it is that's pretty bad the horrible weapons the fact they blew up the deli is like oh shit you know you want to get rid of them i don't know um but yeah the consequence here isn't uh this is my problem with the framing so it's like he's uh he's left ned behind and ned's just okay with it no consequence it's like oh yeah that's not the consequence of those scenes actually it's not in relation to ned it's in relation to peter standing socially um and if if the film played out that ned no longer spoke to him and the consequences that um later on in the movie that's how vulture figures out that he's spiderman oh yeah that's actually worth saying so anyone's actually a really significant consequence to that one vulture the the the time he brings he tries to bring spiderman out as a party trick and then fails to turn up is a huge element for why vulture finds out that peter is spiderman yeah which is a heavy consequence i kind of have the i have home coming in in the background over here one thing to notice that spiderman uh doesn't even really fire that laser or anything like that or does anything that particularly makes an accident the goons just cranks the knob and fires at him and so it wasn't really it wasn't entirely spider man's i guess the argument would be that spiderman being there add that scenario run that way so he's technically responsible for whatever the robbers do uh outside of things they would have done if he wasn't there yeah but he framed it in a way that said peter fucked the thing up yeah no it's not as directly a peter's fault i would agree with that right hey guys sorry i just need to go to the toilet i'll be back in a sec no problemo yeah a lot of people are saying that the robbers don't turn back up in the film therefore they can't count as a consequence find that interesting um there's a living breathing world through yeah it's like they are just doing the job of like a larger body so it's not like you know he has a reason to go after these particular ones because they're just like you know the limbs of a large dude i'm tired of this stupid objective is a subjective bullshit i'm sick of not letting people not finish their points and i'm tired of the hypocrisy and high egos damn you sick of these motherfucking snakes as well do we want to continue or wait for shat oh i was gonna wait for shat so he gets to hear the whole thing no worries but yeah um i mean if you don't like the whole objective is a subject i don't know why you'd be subscribed to me it's like my whole thing and uh wait no sorry i just noticed you're not in the same steel frame as me but it's on the steel frame where ned and peter are doing their handshake it's like they're good friends why would what why would i would argue that's very important in it is a highlight of how long to him the connection is and how thorough massive egos with our massive in our other case our egos are a lot of massy try a lot of that debate a lot of people were arguing about pineapple on pizza i found that kind of well i mean i'm saying pineapple on pizza is insane but i think we said all this back in like e-fap like i want to say before e-fap 10 but uh yeah we do pause people before they finish points and if their point changes once we've listened to the whole thing we absolutely concede we were wrong yeah like oops you were making a joke i get it now yeah well it's because it's spider-man it's it's godzilla as well would be the other one yeah it's like um it's the format so uh people often say like you should watch the whole video beforehand so that you can know exactly when to pause and stuff like that and i'm always like oh yeah but you lose the initial reaction thing and um ultimately you don't remember a video intrinsically when you do that anyways it doesn't necessarily solve the problem as long as we account for any sentence uh that fixes a previous one or whatever then that's the goal lose a lot of e-fap if we if we just let it play i mean we would have missed the rhino milking i mean all all kinds of things you would have missed yeah some of the best reaction moments wouldn't exist because we'd all have them uh prepared this dream is very uh this stream is very appropriately called every frame a pause true you usually don't defend bad writing but now you are um any inconsistencies or contrivances that have been brought up we've argued over through and then conceded i don't think we've been that bad on that subject what do you think shad have we been um overly defensive well if um the quality of writing is intrinsically connected to its adaptive value then there is a criticism to be made on the writing then isn't there well just saying from the perspective of the consistency stuff how we how we fared you reckon yeah i think um yeah for homecoming specifically i think uh oh yeah well once this video is done we can jump to far from home and we'll be at past three hours by then this is gonna be a chuggy e-fap yeah bitch is net it loses party and the net forgives him the next day everything's fine he shirks all his responsibilities and then gets detention ditches the tension and then gets away scott free he gets uh several more detentions and he gets close to expelled in the film as the dialogue yeah and the only reason he doesn't get expelled is because he stops being spider-man to focus in on school again yeah and so this is by my account a poor framing of what the film actually has in it to support his argument yeah what do you reckon shad i think it's a weird punishment to expel someone for skipping class because that's kind of giving them what they wanted oh sorry we talked about something else no yeah i agree with you i think that's fair he skipped some detention you don't expel him you're like okay what the fuck's going on um so we do we see the impact of the further detentions and stuff upon him we don't see that it's just nodded to it nodding to can be enough because you know how important is it to the plot for us to see those detentions i thought there were a lot of what there are a lot of instances where you see that he's kind of not paying attention and not doing like earlier in the movie he's watching a video on youtube he's not really paying attention when he's at the cathalon he's not really paying attention and then he skips to cathalon and then like in even in his science class he's working on his web shooters rather than what he meant to be doing i thought it was reinforced throughout the whole movie yeah no well i mean i must shout are you saying like we need to see like a grade report that's really bad sort of thing yeah i don't know i don't know this one i'm a little on the fence about so all right weren't the point in one thing this has been like wrong right wrong sort of right now for high top he sharks all his response wrong right wrong wrong so we'll see how the next right wrong wrong i thought it was it might i'm not keeping school i can't get detention ditches the tension and then gets away scott free everything's fine he endangers the lives of the cathalon team after leaving them at the competition they win and i'll survive everything's fine so okay so wait he by leaving them at the thing he didn't even realize that it was a danger until like well after he like yeah like when it went to the competition there wasn't he wasn't sending him into danger like on purpose he only found out that there was danger long after they had attended interestingly though it is a problem caused by the hero that he now needs to solve and so if you're looking at this from a broader overarching thing as to how effective a hero is he and is constantly needing to save people from stuff ups his making that doesn't come across as a competent you know hero as a result which can be civil war wouldn't have happened if there wasn't that happening to enable it i mean age of ultron is no age of ultron is that age of ultron is the better example civil war not so much well what i mean is age of ultron is bad but like civil war kind of makes it work at least in the consequences of the heroes made the mistake i mean like i appreciate this argument do you want to shelve it for a little bit later the idea of like a um an incompetent hero and how to sort of portray it to stick to high tops ah yes i'm thinking to stick to high tops goal here we're just identifying consequence and sort of discussing it so the idea that um the friends are endangered nearly killed but they're all rescued everything's fine my issue there is he's drawn the event he started describing the events way too late it's like peter's looking into vulture he's focusing hardcore on spider-man at this point at expense of peter park he doesn't even go to the cathalon he's playing with this chatari core he doesn't exactly know how it works and by having ned hold on to it um the consequence of him pursuing all this shit with spider-man is about to kill every one of his friends and so he has to act so my take on the consequence there is already there like he's like good god that's a pretty big consequence his friends are all about to die yeah what is he trying to say he's saying that they didn't die so it's no consequence he saved them so which is a post hoc argument and i don't like it well well yeah maybe is trying to argue that the problems peter is causing are all turning out fine and that if he's causing this many issues he's saying logically something should impact far more negatively on his life as a result of this many stuff ups they did though because when he lost the suit because he made a big mistake well we haven't gotten to the suit yet that could be one that could be one he brings up but in the example he's giving at the moment he could be trying to say that everything is like everything is turning out fine when that could be considered unrealistic um uh you know where it could take away any concern that something horrible could really happen to the protagonist because everything is just working out for him even when it's stuffing up major okay well in in spider-man 2 doc arc fights spider-man on the train and then he destroys the train and then it starts moving right towards the end spider-man saves them everything's fine you see what i mean it's like it's kind of a stupid argument because there is consequences in the scene in the train to me yeah to me that sounds like a what-aboutism and it doesn't invalidate the criticism what i mean is you would explain how in spider-man 2 it's like well there clearly are consequences to that scene like the scene itself is a consequence yeah i mean like the scene itself is the consequence of things that happened before no no yeah but that's not exactly what i'm pointing out if there's a valid point is making it's that with all these problems that is happening and peter parker is causing perhaps is arguing that they are too easily resolved without any um negative or permanent impact on his life and story which then might undermine any investment we have in the problems later on if it's just showing that peter parker always comes out on top how is he coming out on top like in what sense right at the end you mean or well with the examples his give with the the examples he's giving at the moment are there permanent impacts to his life or character from these things that are happening he loses lives and no no no the examples is given so far we are not always yet well i mean we're not through the movie yet though yeah yeah but his giving examples that's that like because if he tries to criticise you know the fact that vultures the father and he loses his and everything's fine well then we can say he's wrong in that instance but no we're looking at the examples is giving thus far and i think he's trying to say that um there's no permanent impact on his life or character as a result of these issues well i mean i'd say that they're important growth experiences for one how like in terms of things that he learns well these all reinforce what he learns by the end of the film about you know the way that he needs to conduct himself so it does have a consequence at least in that sense beyond the ones that have you know already been illustrated before like that the actual consequence in the scene or the consequence later in the film him showing up at dc is what gave away that he was um because remember in the last scene with liz where she's like you disappear like you always do like you didn't dc and then vulture literally says well sham what happened there i bet you're really glad when spider-man showed up and then he says well no i i saw it from the ground it's like well so the consequence of this scene is that vulture finds out he's spider-man and then tries to kill him which would be a permanent consequence right which is a consequence very very valid parry sir this this film is all about cause and effect that's why i find it odd when someone says that okay so everything has a consequence okay so you're yeah you believe yeah the direct consequence of that scene is vulture finding out that's all the indirect consequence that's like the consequence that he don't see coming it's something that comes later when the twist comes and you're like oh shit and all builds up it keeps building up the things that he does and ends up screwing them over at the end good point for this specific one yeah very good point and not to mention um he's using spider-man 2 as a reference just to say okay well this is the reason that you know this is a bad spider-man adaptation and he's using spider-man 2 as the example of what he's going off of so when you come come to the train sequence it seems like there's far less consequences and except for you know getting bonked in the face and taken out at the end but it seems like the consequences of that are i think of the grand scheme of things far less than in homecoming wouldn't you say well the the thing is it's like i use that as an example because i disagree with the idea that you cut out back oh well i was using the train scene as an example because the train seems really good um and like it is a consequence in and of itself the scene happening but then of course if you if you really try to stretch it you could say well nobody died his identity was revealed but nobody's gonna tell anybody so everything's fine you know what i mean it's like it's it's almost as if he's like ignoring that the scene itself is the consequence of things that happened before and just because no one dies doesn't mean that it wasn't important uh yeah so the concept of reducing the the consequences as a whole for example the fight in the airport scene in civil war isn't really have any consequences because nobody died would be a much more expected consequence considering it's every single hero fighting each other that's a whole other argument that me and fringy despise but we'll get that some other century um when you're dealing with a high schooler who's trying to balance his social life with his superhero life um everything is crushed down and uh so the idea that it's like it's not a consequence unless someone dies and i'm not saying that's what everyone here is saying i'm not saying that's what anyone here is saying but the idea alone frustrating because it almost limited nobody's making the death makes consequences um didn't he literally say when exploded the shop owner didn't die i didn't his cat he didn't even die pay attention god damn it um high top dose not subscribers your logical for lucy stop judging him by it noted okay he endangers the lives of the cathalon team after leaving them at the competition they win and all survive everything's fine he ditches liz at homecoming and everything is fine but that was no that was the last straw all right why did he why did he have the gap was he doing some kind of joke or is he actually serious like he was what i what i think he was trying to do is like he was he went in a big detail on a whole lot of the other things that had happened and then there was just that one moment like i ditched her everything's fine you know so i was expecting to make a joke he leaves liz at homecoming gap gap okay that one does have a permanent impact but okay that's what i was expecting i was like yeah yeah that was the thing that was the last straw for her he lost the the woman that he was trying to pursue throughout the film because of that moment there that was it for her oh hang on let's try and break it out because more like you got a better memory of this film is that why she ditched him or is because his would she have stuck with peter if her dad didn't go to jail uh so she says that one line where she says he says i'm so sorry liz and she says you say that a lot what are you sorry for this time or something like that implying that she doesn't take him seriously whatsoever anymore this is is it the second or third time he's ditched her um there's no what i'm trying to say is there's no line where she says i will not date you peter parker but there's definitely an implication of you know she's got absolutely no interest in in him because he keeps just failing over and over again but it's kind of dwarfed by the fact that her dad is in jail i'm not sure i got that like i got the impression that she probably would have stuck with him if she wasn't moving away i don't i don't get that i don't either because he ditched her so many times throughout yeah like she's actually kind of yeah like she's totally justified in her response at that point you know i didn't yeah i didn't see a say like you know you left me alone i was so embarrassed well um interestingly would you not agree that um either way it's a consequence of peter's actions because he's the reason vulture's in jail and thus moving his family out that's true yeah but um i'm curious what that gap was for and i'm let's just see where he goes with this because he's doing these in sections obviously just lives at homecoming and everything is fine the film was sometimes aware of its lack of consequences that's why it seems like this is a play for comedy i was hoping maybe i could yeah so as it stands he's wrong and there's this this tizmic rea in chat that's saying we're taking him out of context consistently um what do you guys just take on his point in that moment if you if he reaffirms the point later on and justifies it as something completely different that wouldn't change what the point just there was would it i'll i'm doing my best to try and keep him in context trying to understand exactly what is that as it stands am i the only one who's offered any defense to some of the things to say even if you guys convinced me against you know my initial assertion i'm doing my best yeah i think he would have an argument if he was phrasing this with a much more fine tooth like sort of the consequences are not to the degree that he thinks should be considering the actions something like that that might be a fair way to put it but the idea that there's no consequences like that's just patently false i would have consequences that's why it seems like this are played up for comedy i was hoping maybe i could rejoin the team no no way you can't just quit on a stroll up and be welcome back by everyone hey welcome back peter yeah so the idea there is that flash is constantly put down trying to achieve and get attention while peter is too intelligent to be dropped and if you're gonna say to me well you'd still have to agree that that's a lack of consequence where there could have been one i'd be like absolutely there's a lot of places where you can place consequences in this film that aren't there's also a lot of places where there are consequences where you didn't have to have them vulture could have found out his identity in different ways yeah and sometimes you get you have multiple options as a writer to choose which path to go down to service what you want in the plot the good example is with his friend what's his name again um ned ned ned being okay with peter ditching him that i actually felt that was a character building moment for ned with him being okay with it which actually service the plot in that regard and so uh yeah there are absolutely different options you can choose it's not a absolute negative thing that you know the character didn't react the way that we thought he should have reacted when it was valid that ned reacted that way and so the way we were seeing um flash react is absolutely valid and it's in line with this character and establishes who he type who he is and there's also establishing certain elements about peter parker's character and also the teacher the teacher's obviously with incompetence but he values peter you know yeah because he's intelligent someone in chat said if he's too intelligent to drop them why did they win so if you've got a stacked team and you can make it even more stacked you'd probably choose to make it even more stacked yeah you'd cut it off the stops to win except for you know cheating like i you know i just figured that if you've got a choice because he replaces flash and flash is shown in this film to not be very intelligent so yeah i think his point in this scene exactly is a more subjective one where he feels they should have been more consequences for his actions and it came off as unsatisfying but yeah my my take is that there are multiple ways you can choose to go in a scene that many can be realistic and you usually go with the one that you feel best serves the plot of the story that you're trying to make and things because like if he wasn't if he wasn't allowed to go under the cathlon how would that have derailed the story you wouldn't have a alibi for going to washington to search for vulture and if he didn't search for vulture he might not have been able to stop him so for the service of the story he needed to go to you know washington and that's the thing i don't think anyone can say that it should have been x or y it's like both of these scenarios would have worked if the teacher said no peter you've you know disappointed several times we're gonna leave you behind and i think it's perfectly in line with this teacher by the way he's very um how would you describe him for me he's not very assertive i'd say he's kind of like he's he's um yeah a little bit weak especially when in far from home you find out that why and about getting snapped so that she could put another guy it's almost like he would make a very unsatisfying protagonist oh probably yeah probably objectively so possibly depending on if his films are depends yeah welcome back by everyone hey welcome back peter flash you're back to first alternate what but being self-aware does not excuse the flawed hand if i take a shit on the spider-man toy you know what we call that we call that a web slinging ass kicking and flush you down the toilet uh very funny you douchebag but the truth is i still clog the fucking toilet i don't think that would clog the toilet i'm trying to understand his analogy here i think i think what i think what he's um i think what he's saying is um okay so i i clog the toilet and then i'm like whoops it's like yeah okay funny but the toilet still clogs yeah that's the point he's trying to make yeah like making a joke out of something dumb doesn't change the fact that it was no it's kind of the same argument i think you know like how yeah like we can nudge nudge this is formulaic and cliche it's like yeah yeah funny but it's still formulaic and cliche and even though you've yeah man my issue is that i don't agree that it's a flaw at the base it's just like a it could have gone either way sort of thing but the truth is i still clog the fucking toilet you see what i'm getting at you could argue that liz leaving midtown is a consequence but the movie makes it abundantly clear that peter really only yeah it's almost like it's a high school crush so this is this is him arguing positive qualities to like somebody so this is him arguing the point then i don't know why he didn't put this earlier but yeah let's listen to this in full so otherwise people are gonna get very upset spider man's a sensitive topic we've we've um listened to points in half across all of e-fap but we can't do it with spider man and i'm so angry and i know that we probably can't do it with godzilla as well we'll be careful if we ever cover a godzilla video gotta listen to him fall you see what i'm getting at you could argue that liz leaving midtown is a consequence but the movie makes it abundantly clear that peter really only likes her because she's pretty and smart he doesn't even know her he knows pretty much nothing about her she's just his first crush which that sounds pretty significant for a high school yeah i mean i don't think high schoolers think way too hard about you know what they're feeling they just feel it and they just gotta jump in i don't know he says he doesn't know anything about her it's like yeah that's why he wants to get to know her exactly he's trying to get like with her to get to know her better right just the fact that she's pretty smart and obviously kind and a nice person that's definitely enough they're like to what be interested in someone like what i don't get yeah she'll show up like what's he supposed to do stock the shit out of her and then get they needed to know each other for longer before she was taken away i think is his point i don't agree that that require is required to represent a consequence yeah nothing about her she's just his first crush which works great in keeping the light high school or tone but listen her relationship to peter carries almost no emotional weight compare the humor yeah i disagree the idea of it having no emotional weight for a teenager who has a crush on a girl who is now left school but he is comparing it to something that he feels had far more emotional weight and therefore the homecoming version is worse in theory but that would be a change of argument i thought that this section was on no consequences not no consequences no significant consequences by comparison to a different story it sounds like he is changing an argument it sounds like he's adding oh yeah yeah yeah um why this is bad and the and it's that there was no emotional weight in their relationship i might concede the second argument but not the first that's all i was saying compare the humorous lack of consequences and homecoming to the humorous abundance of consequences in spider-man 2 everything peter does in spidey 2 in the ramy trilogy in the spectacular spider-man cartoon in the 90s spider-man show from your childhood and that really dope mtv show and in the comics has consequences not everything but i think he's saying he's referring that there's far more and he feels that the consequences are not as large as they should have been in homecoming which is a small stakes story though um isn't he like like it's so the idea of like a consequence that's permanent the end of spider-man ramy spider-man one he chooses not to be with mary jane the second one he ends up with her in the third one is it ambiguous i can't remember isn't it like the third one if i remember it's been a while it was kind of uh they were on good terms but not going out and i expected that was to set up his other relationships with like you know when stacey or betty brand or or black cat even any number of he has a lot of girls he goes through old parka and so you got to put mary jane on the back burner to get to him it's just that the thing is he just keeps framing it in a way that says that homecoming has zero absolutely zero consequences when that's just not true he's going to the other other films saying like there are consequences but it's like well just because somebody just doesn't die all the time doesn't mean the consequences there's a certain implication when he said everything's fine like he said that like four times it's like no no no they're not let's give them a bone and and say what if he's saying that they aren't as large as they should have been and as a result had less emotional impact on your uh i guess reaction to the story i could potentially can see that what it should have though like that's yeah that's a problem well i mean this is the thing if the story does have more emotional impact you generally regard it as a superior i guess um i guess think about um so in the dark night you have you have two scenes that i think are probably a good you know example so you have the scene where the joker has the two boats rigged with explosives and the idea is that you know he wants to convince one group to blow up the other group and it's like that's pretty high stakes there are a thousand you know there are hundreds of people on these boats a lot of civilians i mean and then you got the prisons on the other one and then you have the scene with harby dent that's incredibly intense and it's only really involving three or four people and yet the stakes are really high because of the personal attachment bigger doesn't necessarily mean higher stakes you can have things that have less people involved you know like like less of a consequence on uh a smaller number of people but still i think i think you would agree with the stakes are higher yeah i think he would but that's what i mean it's like because because his reference was like the the relationship he had with was it liz oh right but but it's it's also the other stuff like nobody on the to have to have higher stakes doesn't necessarily mean them to be larger more lives are at risk i like to have a better conflict can simply be there's more moral implications involved with the conflict it resonates deeper with the audience you like the character whose live life is at stake much more and and and things like that and so i do feel that the relationship or at least peter's investment say in mary jane in the ramy films was much greater than you know the relationship peter has with liz and so i think that's valid here um it's i don't really get the impression that the relationship with liz is like the foremost most important thing like it's a part of the story but i'd say the bigger focus is on the trying to you know impress tony you're trying to be an avenger and stuff like that well i don't know like if it is important yeah like the fact that peter has to abandon this girl to save the you know the world not the world but i'll just want to stop vulture yeah yeah to stop vulture that would have had far more impact if the so if more was invested in the relationship and if it was going to really hit him harder and that is you know you need to take more time to establish that relationship between the two and stuff and everything but i think that is a valid enough thing to say that that scene could have been improved upon if the relationship was stronger or your the the emotional impact or resonance from peter's action would have been greater yeah i don't i don't think the film really needed to be any long achieved what it needed to achieve in the time that it had well i don't know like i mean if a film could have been better and you can identify areas where there was room for improvement i think what i mean is i don't think i don't think it could have been i don't think it should have been any longer it like the scene well all of the scenes in the film have a purpose every scene has a purpose because characters keep coming back like um when you see uh it's donald glubbers character he plays on myles morales's uh oh aron aron davis because he even in that scene with the weapons it's like he's in that scene he comes back later sorry i do want to take back what i said before in response to you okay if if you wanted to add something that increased the length of the film that simply would have improved the quality of the film i say sure i go oh there's obviously a limit there's obviously a limit i don't curiosity though even a small increase could we feasibly always increase the stakes and potentially the emotional uh payoff if you will like of a better term it's tricky because to do that you do need to take the time to establish certain things to reach that point like if you want the relationship to be stronger between these two characters you need to have the right story beats and scenes to get you there and so sometimes you do need to try and make a balance as to what's what's better what will have the greater result versus what will take too much time what might bog down the pacing and such and so you just need to try and find the best balance between them all to get the best result possible um and i think that we'll be giving the movie too much credit to say that there's no way in which it could have been improved upon i think most movies you could yeah films can be improved yeah yeah um but to clarify so like we would we would all agree that the stakes of infinity war are higher than that of the avengers in terms of the world scale like just by sheer numbers yeah um but would it be would it not be a form of what aboutism to say avengers would have been improved if the threat was were universe wide or even earth wide as opposed to just new york in that moment even though technically that is worldwide because if they just know maybe i mean my own experience with trying to get uh an audience invested in stakes is to try and create some type of connection with it and um and so you can have people far more emotionally invested in a story where one life is at risk if they really care about the character then the whole world uh and so i guess um civil war is probably a good example of that though because the fight is bigger and it has larger implications on the world because of you know the effect that it has on the accords and all that but the fight between tony cap and bucky is absolutely the more intense fight because of the personal stakes even though it's really one person's life at stake in that battle or two people i guess yeah it's always a matter of yeah it's identify with the character and so to bring it back like i said i felt that everything was scaled down in homecoming and i suppose the argument would be that if they had established liz and pete's relationship in a stronger manner the payoff of having her being taken away from him would have been stronger i wouldn't disagree with that is that a change of consequence though i guess it would be because he'd be he'd be personally more invested in her would that be the argument yeah um yeah i suppose and he is using the point of reference of spider man two which he feels has far more emotional investment i mean he argued almost what's at stake he argued a lot of iterations obviously i haven't got experience enough in all of them to be able to question it but when he said that you know spider man always has consequences in every like obviously not but i think it's trying to say in most instances um when spider man is written well it's usually playing on that theme of power responsibility will he do the right thing versus how it affects his life and stuff and those stories end up being really you know great like just phenomenal um and i i was about to think as well i think there's an argument to be made that throughout the film every time he tries to start up and develop his relationship with liz it is subverted by his interests in being spider man like um the parties his first shot in because they always the establishing the gym where they're like we want to you know if anyone has a shot with liz it's you because like you know he's he's spider man and then it's like his shot to impress her and get to know her and potentially be her boyfriend is ruined by him being spider man in the in the party in the pool bit and then finally with homecoming which is probably the most significant because he's literally her date like that would that's his that's an interest it's an interesting counter that if you're trying to explain why he wasn't able to have that relationship with him it's because of him being spider man that's interesting well i mean that's i figured that was what the what was happening constantly like spider man gets in the way of him being able to do things and then when spider man is saved from him like when tony takes the suit and he's focused in things start going well he gets a talk to liz he secures the date he's doing better in school hanging out with ned you know i mean it's it's an explanation but it doesn't mean that they couldn't have established a closer relationship in spite of the issues he runs into um well i suppose which he is done i suppose that when you think of far from homecoming afterwards mj is somebody that he's got more in common with because she's also a little bit reclusive a bit um you know different um there's you know it's it's clear that uh liz long term is not super important because she is the high school you know the first high school crush um but it's important to him in this movie you know it's yeah as a character she's not very interesting for me oh sure yeah i probably agree she's uh she's fairly you know one dimensional um but uh i guess it's um it's it's about how they allocate time and what what they're trying to focus in on and then it's i guess you can even see it in the um the warehouse scene where um he's talking to karen and she's like oh who's liz it's like oh you know she's great she's uh it doesn't really say that much beyond what was said before she's pretty and smart you know what i mean like he yeah you're right he doesn't know much about her uh so we good to move on yeah yes all right type it right now you have like three seconds three two one one of the fundamental characteristics of peter parker is that he can't catch a break everything goes wrong in his life even if he makes the right choice even if he makes the hard choice his life still sucks that's what's in dear peter parker right right okay so i wouldn't say i would say this is a result of a fundamental characteristic not a fundamental characteristic that you can subvert if it works in the plot um yeah i think there are times in which you can have things go his way and his life could be fine and still be true to the true theme of spider man in my opinion which is a great power comes great for responsibility him being a aspirational heroic figure that those are the core elements of spider man that i feel that you can establish by making a an appeal to previous continuity or not just continuity previous works um so yeah i'm not sure i'm on board with this one that he has to like life always has to suck for him generally that is a common element that makes for great stories i fully agree but i don't think that means you can't have a good spider man story where things start to go his way well i guess um you know it's you're kind of limiting yourself at the end i think in the comics he started his own company at some point like well i don't think i don't think that um what that uh oh yeah i mean i uh yeah that's fine but what i mean is it's uh it's a little bit restrictive to say that he i i prefer your interpretation of it where like him not being able to catch a break is just a consequence of um i guess his principles or his motivations whereas i think saying well he can't catch a break it's like well so i can't do stories where he does catch a break and it's funny he says this because in far from home he's literally on break and he can't catch a break so like so i far from home is a good spider man movie according to high top yeah i think too yeah well yeah i know the other thing too is like aside from the social capital thing i guess the other thing that would make a really good peter parker is the fact that he's a total nerd and that like he's just a little socially awkward because of because he's so freaking smart you know so i think that's you know just kind of just just just kind of adding to his question i suppose and uh i think he's he is definitely like socially awkward in this movie um absolutely i'm totally not the person to ask but my one would have been uh he has to deal with the dichotomy of maintaining spider man and peter parker i thought that was sort of the core yeah that's another that is the core yeah but i guess like when it comes down to it it's like that's that's how he would start out but i don't think it would probably be just a little strange for him to constantly be struggling it with it like well and do his like mid to late 20s you know you would think he'd have figured it out with the beginning of his character as a very strong important part but one of the reasons why i find it's important is because it makes the point in which where he doesn't need to struggle as much between those two things very satisfying like when he finally reveals his identity to mary jane in like i remember ultimate spider man and stuff it's actually a great scene great comic book scene where you know she is on the bed and she cracks up laughing because she doesn't believe him and then and then in the later stories she starts to try and help him out balance that dichotomy and it becomes an active interesting thing where she tries to make excuses for him to his teachers and stuff and he has like someone fighting in his corner now and that enhances the story in a different way but it isn't restricted to having to remain in that that thing i mean he eventually marries mary jane and she certainly knows him and then he has to balance you know taking care of her as his wife while being spider man and stuff yeah that's that's exactly what i mean it's like when when you set a very restrictive rules on what must be done you're kind of limiting ways with which you can experiment with the character and do different things and and explore well he considers this a core element and i'm sure shab would argue that there are core elements you need to maintain uh yeah but this isn't one of them right this is a natural byproduct but you can go against it and not betray what spider man is yeah Parker is that he can't catch a break everything goes wrong in his life even if he makes the right choice even if he makes the hard choice his life still sucks that's what's endearing about peter parker he still chooses to be spider man even if the consequences of being him out with the benefits peter parker is us his entire purpose as a character was to be relatable to the reader a dorky nerdy outcast with a good heart i won't make him the handsomeest guy in the world or the strongest you know a dorky nerdy outcast with a good heart i i wouldn't say that applies to tom holland in the homecoming what do you why i don't know i i think it was but what do you think i said you said it doesn't no i said it does it doesn't oh i thought you said it doesn't i agree with you sorry sorry if i said it doesn't i misspoke i meant to say it okay well this this is part of the reason why i've never really been on board entirely with the it's a bad adaptation i watch him like yes seems like spider man to me and in ways that are important not in all the ways like as in you know accurate to the comics but in ways that are important good heart nice person even though he makes mistakes and um and that he wants to do the right thing i guess it's more of a i don't know that's that's why i sort of was trying to head yeah but i say um i mean that's that we're talking about that later so i won't delve into that too much by the way miss you stan don blud yeah yes rip stanley uh i do like stanley's um philosophy though on suit on spider man and his explanation you know like spider man is the every man he's the uh he's not the the big you know popular handsome he's just a normal guy who's trying to do his best and that's probably that's the reason why spider man is is so liked by him yeah absolutely that can be taken too far because at the same time he is very noble right yeah exactly yes i would say super humanly noble um and stuff and so he has qualities that transcend the average person but because he has things that ground him in the world as well makes him so compelling because you can relate to him and honestly it becomes a very great role model because you see this person who's like you who is there now making such noble decisions makes it made me as a kid want to be like that i want to be that noble i want to be tom holand is that every man that received tony stark except for the suit that he made you're a cutting out man oh yeah no it was um of the average tony uh like tom holand the every man who gets a suit from tony stark or gets everything from tony stark but it's like he had his own suit for six months and then he got his suit taken away and then he still went off to vulture hmm no no like so i get what they they say with this argument here that the fact that he does get a really powerful suit can work against the idea of him kind of struggling and you know going on his own and stuff like that it doesn't subvert it completely that might be where people take it too far you can still have a character who is the every man and deals with regular things still a teenager dealing with crap and being unpopular that doesn't change by the fact he has a really good suit um but it can work against the conflicts he runs into and the struggles he has to deal with because it takes away just one of those hurdles he generally needs to leap over because now he has a good suit so that's kind of i feel where the criticism is coming yeah but there's enough stuff that you see in the movie that shows that he he's pretty savvy like when he made shooters in the lab you see how he does it it's like oh well there's a process there and in civil war you saw how he explained the whole purpose of his little goggles you know to help him focus in and stuff like that there's enough you you see enough of him being injured like and the fact that he hacks into the suit as well you can see enough instances that he knows how to do things and the whole point of the movie is that he doesn't need the suit i mean like i actually remember i like the fact he gets the suit um because with all his skills being a master of seeing i seem i was gonna say seamstress how do you say the male version of seamstress seamstress there you go um that was like that's never been a prominent element of his skill set yet he suddenly had it to make this phenomenal suit and then it never comes up again like that's always been a little yeah like i i mean the reality is like i would highly doubt you know toby maguire would be able to build that suit in his house you know what i mean it's like the the homemade suit in homecoming i is way more believable as a suit that a kid could make at home yeah you know what i mean like it's a cool suit i really like the other criticism the other criticism of the suit is the um the internal computer the thing is though like it does i'm not sure if you pointed this out to me well tell me if you did you can take credit for it if you want um that it serves a narrative purpose where in the comic books peter parker is always thinking to himself like thought bubbles are everywhere and whenever you make a movie you run into that struggle and trying to adapt literature because voicing thought on in movie can be really hard they tried to do it in june and it comes off really weird by having people's you know incorporeal voice do they have like the the breathy sound effect or whatever it's like i wonder what i think you know that's like it can be really jarring in the film in film and stuff and so the the karen you know computer is serving a narrative um uh point narrative purpose in enabling him to voice his thoughts in a more realistic natural way so we get the peter parker thinking to himself element without it being this disembodied voice he's get to speak to someone and and i actually think they that's successful that that works it serves the purpose in achieving that and so i think it's a good argument against the karen uh computer yeah i mean i i think i agree that in a monologue in um in live action film it's it's a lot easier to do an animation i mean i know that has like yeah ages and ages of uh in a monologue but it's because you can hit pause and it's not too distracting words and live action things need to move normally well well yeah like because in the in the cartoon spider-man is not to himself all the time but has anyone here watched the the old june where they're thinking to himself all the time and how weird it comes off i haven't known the old june there's a film called june is it all june oh dune weird pronunciation people like i thought you said the old june june i was picturing like an old lady named june i was like she liked the ducks and my pronunciation is retarded i get it okay guys um june the old june with the in a monologue always happening it's weird it comes off so strange yeah yeah yeah i don't really i don't care too much for the uh inner monologue types especially throughout the whole things like i get sort of why they did it uh in the original uh it's because of the books well i'm sorry i thought i got to still talking about june because june the books are written in a third person omniscient and characters thoughts are being voiced all the time in like because if you're writing in third person limited the narration is always from a single perspective even though it's in third person but with omniscient it's no holds bar and that's one of the classic kind of um examples of a book effectively written in third person omniscient but translating that effectively into film when you have so many thoughts happening amongst so many different characters in a given scene it's really hard to convey those scenes the same way or convey the same information um in a film that was conveyed in the book because of the different format it can be tricky and that's why i opted for it biometric in chat you're thinking of june oh the movie with the pregnant teenager and the old boy first i was just about to take that leave me alone i won't make him the handsomest guy in the world or the strongest i won't make him rich isn't uh isn't spider-man a phenomenally strong in the comics uh we're strong enough to get it he's not as strong as like Thor or anything like but uh he can pick up a car and slow it he like he can stop a train yeah his strength level is is is hot yeah yeah but it's high but it's not like superman yeah it's generally on actually it's a bit higher than captain america um yeah and uh but yeah nowhere near Thor or Hulk like not even close right we'll have money worries i can relate to that because i had money problems in those days yeah so i guess he's trying to highlight here that he's friends with Tony Stark a billionaire therefore he cannot have money woes which is a fundamental issue because spider-man is supposed to um well what do you what do you guys think uh i'd say the money woes is like tied it's not it's not a thing that is it's sort of tied to the other problems right with him just being a normal person it's not really the money problems in themselves it's the normal problems sort of thing well a lot of it has to do with his age too he can't even work it yeah exactly he's too young to have money problems yeah so i i do admit that it takes away one of the points of conflict in the story by here um having you know access to a personal jet that can fly in on a call and then make you a new suit when you need it all right so that that's a pretty darn high-end luxury that he has access to and and as a result it takes away one of the points of conflicts that spider-man has struggled with in many stories which can come across or which were very satisfying and stuff and so because of that you have less to work with narratively to make an effective spider-man story i wouldn't say it means you can't make an effective spider-man story because of that absence yeah it's not fundamental yet it's essential to peter's character somebody said you see what i mean when i'm talking finding like what spider-man is people have different like opinions on it no no see i would say generally his poverty is a result of his fundamental characteristics once again because he spends so much time being spider-man he isn't able to hold down a job and he can't get enough money to pay the bills and stuff and that's the the natural results but you you do not subvert who this character is who spider-man is by having tony start coming in come in and give him money he can still be true to those characteristics it loses a point of conflict that you can explore in the story which i fully admit and and so is something missing in that sense well it doesn't necessarily mean that it will be a inferior spider-man movie as a result if you stay true to what spider-man is and you have a good story it just means it's one of those elements that are generally a result of these characteristics that i guess i think i'll be that's um as it's set up now it's not impossible to do it you can just be in a situation that's also true i'll be like um in a video game uh in the spider-man video game it's like he's worked is that a spoiler he's working with a scientist don't if it's i haven't played the video okay yeah no he's working with a scientist um and he's not i didn't know he was gonna work with a scientist you've ruined the whole thing for me wow he knows we're ending now too stop he's working with um a scientist whose name i won't mention um and it's mentioned many times he could easily take up a job with corp and get paid a lot more and he's like yeah but this is what i want to do you know this is good work that we're doing so i don't really you can still have him have money problems you could just have it be he would turn down office for money you know like he won't he just you know like if stark says here's a big check he's like no i can't accept you know i would need to be logically consistent like yeah stark said i want to give you a million dollars gee i don't wonder what reason would you turn that down oh yeah i'm very helpful i don't exactly yeah yeah well the comic says i can't sorry stark but the thing of it is it's all like i you know i know that he was broke as hell in the other like versions and everything like that but that's because he was kind of like the only one of his kind you know he was a superhero but nobody else was backing him and therefore it's like you know who is gonna hire the fucking superhero but right here we have the avengers who are superheroes they're gonna recognize him and they're gonna want him on another team and that's why they're going to help him out and you know that's why stark's involved and that's why things the way they are it would be really ridiculous for the avengers to be in this world and then for for them to just completely ignore spider-man and for having a broken ass bitch you know um and you you probably it's a thing where it's like if you want spider-man to be in avengers infinity you know like you got it this has to happen that point is good i like you you do have to uh structure the narrative to achieve certain ends and if you want spider-man to be involved in infinity war well having said that though i'm not sure that means one or the other i think they could have it where um tony stark isn't on in his court and that you know the uh avengers don't fully trust spider-man because he's generally like in the public eye they don't know if he's a villain or if he's legit and that has come up in the comic books like if i remember correctly i know purists might really um take issue with me if i'm wrong here but i have a memory of like avengers being reluctant to recruit spider-man because they weren't sure about him they just didn't they you know it happens it's especially a more street level hero thing like we did and there have been a lot of yeah but having said but even when they're reluctant to recruit him when something big hits the fan they're happy with anyone's help and he and spider-man comes along and he's involved in the fight and they're like well we're not sure about you but we're glad you're fighting with us and then afterwards maybe that might change our opinion on recruiting you and stuff and so yeah i think the story could have been done the opposite way without him being helped by um you know iron man would it have been better well they have more to work with in establishing plot conflict and stuff with spider-mans and that is a very satisfying story when his life is just sucking on multiple levels not just a couple because of him being spider-man and seeing him being choosing the right path as you know irrespective of how it's ruining his life is a very noble satisfying narrative so i don't know what's going to come after him though you know it they've really put themselves in a situation where i'd actually be very disappointed if they didn't make that a big point that his real life is just really detrimental and somebody made a great point dead evil needs to be in the next spider-man movie defending him yeah that's that sounds that sounds about right to me i'm not biased at all guys i'm not biased at all for dead evil not one bit the lack of a death of a dead devil who exists in new york where spider-man like is always annoying but they're like i've even heard that they might be scrubbing the netflix marvels from the mcu continuity bringing i think you'll accept that if it means that you get to have him in the mcu right um well he yeah but wouldn't it just be good if if you could have charlie cox as dead evil in the mcu that that seems like the best thing to do but the iron fist and defenders yeah i know i know i know i know they did i mean my view was that all of the shows except for dead evil are like okay to terrible um yeah like well they might use charlie cox they might use him they might i think it would be we could it could be the same thing as a sit and j jonent that's not a spoilix we're talking about far from home as well in the stream so yeah no it's uh it could work it could um i guess the thing is now that that five-year time jump that had to be like cool so i guess dead evil got snapped otherwise this makes things really difficult yeah and uh if they were to say that they're gonna redo dead evil have his own solo movie after like spider-man and well i was gonna say that that would decanonize the show wouldn't it but the show would still exist in my mind and in my mind of course of course i just find that interesting that that means they will be picking and choosing which shows are in canon and not which is interesting um i mean i guess i'm not against them doing that to be honest with you like uh i don't decanonize iron fist i think is what most people say yes all right the thing is is like luke cage was also not very good and uh jessica well actually hold on luke luke cage was bad jessica jones wasn't well that wasn't bad jessica jones was okay to good iron fist was a dumpster fire of epic proportions holy crap does anyone like that show um i watched both seasons for some reason oh he is um i i understand why shad abs he's such an ineffective ineffectual protagonist he lurches from one disaster to the other he's indecisive he can't figure out what his motivation is or what he should be doing this is i don't care if this is a spoiler right so in in iron fist the the whole thing is he had to go to kanlan he trained and then he fought a dragon and when he killed the dragon and he got the iron fist so he is worthy of the iron fist by virtue of the fact that he has it he is worthy of it um but he decides in season two like oh actually um i'm not worthy of this i'm gonna give it to my girlfriend and then she gets the iron fist from him yeah it's um and i know that in luke cage it's another issue of like fudged this is why dead ever works so much better he's got a very clearly defined motivations and the conflict is um understandable uh conveyed and repeated many times throughout the films uh not the films the the the movies where it's yeah it's also the pacing and plot structure a lot like i don't know oh i don't know who uh took a hold of um iron fist but how many episodes does he just spend in a mental asylum doing oh oh yeah oh actually i find this funny this topic because dead evil for me is my my favorite character i wonder how i would react to a dead evil movie where he's not blind he's not a ninja like a dead evil way he's dressed like a frog for this reasons he's dressed like a frog he can see and he's not a lawyer he's um he's a cop maybe he's a noose you know and he he uh i don't know he's in love with foggy you know foggy is uh and i'm just like hot the truth the true test of friggy's principles it probably would lay the test yeah it would be a real test anyway let's kick on yeah we got a video the frog devil frog fist frog devil the strongest i won't make him rich he'll have money worries i can relate to that because i had money problems in those days i said he won't be that popular i mean it's not easy for him to get a girl he has to worry about getting dates and i yeah that seems unfair what about he gets married jane in uh in the in the sam ramy film as she denies married jane she lives she lives right next door to the guy too yeah he turns her down at the end of spider man one yeah this is a strange argument let's be a little more generous he gets plenty of he he goes through a lot of he comes in the comics i mean look at fucking black cat look at her and he gets her i mean friggy are you objectifying black cat i like black cat a lot actually i uh i she's more than the flesh sir so but he's obviously playing this trying to establish that these are a fundamental characteristics of peter parker but i think it's pretty clear that these are the results of his fundamental characteristics um and so yeah i've already mentioned my argument there but be gone thought oh yeah yeah just you know he doesn't deny her in the second movie obviously i was just saying the first time yep it's not easy for him to get a girl he has to worry about getting dates and i figured that most of the kids or the teenagers or the young adults who read those stories would be able to relate to that because nope life isn't easy for anybody really love this is great if you ditched your friends with implication being that life is pretty easy for peter in homecoming question mark yeah would that be a fair interpretation of what he just said he's still dealing with many issues that regular people do absent you know one or two but that doesn't undermine what spider-man is and he was playing the clip that he was using when he said everything's fine so it's like you know like i said i think it's a fair interpretation to say hi top is saying that he's not facing enough of enough issues in his life in homecoming and i would argue that he's facing quite a few ones and some of them very significant yep especially for a 15 year that poor kid anybody really love this is great if you ditched your friends would there be no consequences if you indirectly led the destruction of a corner yeah so uh let's say for example fringy was like i really want to meet up with you in london um and then i agree to go with him i don't turn up and i tell him yeah uh someone was trying to kill me i think fringy would be like jesus christ you okay like no you should but but what if you couldn't tell him that because to protect his own life oh well we have to do this in context he does tell net that yeah yeah but he's if i did if i couldn't tell fringy that i would make up a good lie yeah he was showing everyone there so i think he's referring to the what was it the spelling bee oh the decathlon the decathlon yeah that um they forgive him for ditching him there and there i think it was a party wasn't it where um he because he's like oh it's not cool that you left me here and then so no let's break that down a bit like if they really felt they needed him to win right and he's not there i would and if i had a lot invested in that competition i would be rightly ticked off that is not there and then if we won in spite of him it is a natural response to expect that well we don't really need him and uh would there be a reluctance to let him join in the and be still a part of their study group i can agree with that it'd been cool if we had a bit of like an awkward thing having for him to having to get back into the team yeah sorry this is this is valid daddy yeah this is a valid part i thought well let me go back i could have sworn i thought he was referring to to them separately and then to ned separately but if he's referring to them as a whole then fair enough nope life isn't easy for anybody really this is great if you ditched your friends would there be no consequences if you indirectly led to the destruction of a corner store would there be no consequences hopefully the answer is of course there would be consequences yadik yeah so in fairness he wasn't specifically referencing the ned at the party one he did reference it earlier though yeah um and did we agree that if that guy was in that shop he should have died um i mean people have survived explosions like with that it like he should be dead well it's likely that he would be dead possibly if you had asked me if you'd ask me how to say he'd be dead yeah it's improbable but not really impossible but the way he was standing up it does kind of make it suspect like he didn't just get sawn right like if he i can i can totally i i can totally by the cat being alive the cat was like if he ducked the second the laser started to approach his like he was like oh fuck i'm ducked like yeah i guess he could survive it but there was fire everywhere and there was engulfed in flame at the oh yeah yeah i'm talking at least like you know he has like a counter right like so if he's behind that ducking maybe because he comes out with like all subtle over him this was not like fire didn't hit him yeah it would have been nice to at least see him duck and everything would be yeah i think he should be dead that's a weird conclusion but yes i think he should be dead sir is of course there would be consequences because consequences are real consequences are what ground the spectacular nature of spider-man consequences are what make us believe in the man aspect of spider-man all that being said it is important to acknowledge that peter does indeed face one real big consequence when he loses the suit by trying to do the right thing see i'm interested in how he defines the big and small of consequences because the biggest one i mo is having his true identity revealed to vulture sorry we're we're seeing the scene and i think we should appreciate the fact that that boat is still floating why did he he said that spider-man gets the suit taken away for doing the right thing but he was trying to do the right yeah he was but he he did it the wrong way because the fbi were there it was being taken care of and he just was like he just decided to do it anyway even though tony said that he was looking into it so sorry just like to try and break this down a bit with what he learned at the end of this movie doesn't that reinforce his actions here that he should have tried even though he failed because well the thing is kind of the point of the film in in our homecoming it's like he has to act because nobody knows what's like it's it's presented right in front of him you know he's about to do it and you need to stop him as opposed to this one where tony's like yeah no we're looking into it we're gonna be on to it so you know stay out of it and then he just goes anyway like in the defense of the people who criticize this that was a flippant kind of it came off as just brushing him off like and so yeah yeah it's fair that peter thought oh i think i think peter is completely justified in thinking this was the the right thing to do yes but um there's other things to consider i suppose other other perspectives and um and then you find out it's less it's still important it's less about what he did and more about why he was doing it which was i want to be an avenger i want to be an iron man i want to be like you yeah good point yeah aspect of spider that that kind of uh goal is a subversion and i would say a lesser worser interpretation the idea of spider-man character yeah but the idea in the story is that he is misguided for behaving this way yeah the film condemns him for that attitude yeah like the film wants him to want to be spider-man and that's where he's at at the end yeah but people's criticism is that that should already be established as spider-man like that's generally taken you know sorted out in the first act of any spider-man story and then we get to see well you could say this is the first act of a three act spider-man trilogy well see like this is where my criticism comes in because it came home more fully and far from home that um he's still going through an origin story to establish who he is and that annoys me because no it's um that i don't really i'm not sure what says an origin story but more so like the stories that lead up to him being in the position where he is more recognizable as spider-man i don't know if i'd call that an origin story though it's just like his first couple seasons or something like that you know what i mean but see he's still making new mistakes and especially in far from home and uh we'll we'll definitely do it don't worry again it works against him as um a effective hero we might actually depending on the availability of everybody we're probably gonna have to split this into two episodes because i can't all that being said it is important to acknowledge that peter does indeed face one real big consequence when he loses the suit by trying to do the right thing which leads to me so like having vulture find out he's peter thanks to his showboating a spider-man and having his entire family threatened i would consider that probably a bigger consequence than losing the suit sorry what was the bigger consequence again so i would personally state that the bigger consequence than this uh losing the suit was having vulture find out that he is spider-man thanks to his showboating a spider-man or at least the intention to do that and it resulting in vulture threatening all the people that he loves but hang on did vulture find out he was spider-man from this scene no no he found out from the other scenes that we yeah so then i guess he's talking about the consequence of this scene oh i thought he was talking about as a whole in the film i think what he's saying is he the main consequence is him losing the suit because of their scene here yeah no and i'm saying the the main consequence in the movie rather i thought i thought he was positing that losing the suit is the biggest consequence in the film yeah he is but but let's break down that so you like you think vulture would not have found out who spider-man was if he was trying to be spider-man without the intention to try to be an avenger if he never used spider-man to try and press people i don't know what vulture would have based it on entirely because a lot of the connective dots from liz are about how he came to a house because he's friends with spider-man he's going to show him but then he mysteriously disappeared like if he never went to that party when did he say that well what happened in the scene right when they're in the car like i didn't watch the car ride again so no oh yeah that is a good scene to have re-watched yes yeah because that's a really good scene it is a great scene great lighting great cinematography great acting but yeah no there's a at the beginning um he said she said something like oh the stark internship and then vulture's like oh wow it's only stark and then and then he says oh well i thought it was i i quit it because it was boring and then liz says but you got to hang out with spider-man to which you know um vulture's like oh shit really what's he like and then he starts and then he goes like i've heard your voice before right like we know each other it's sort of where it goes from there okay because all those things there i feel would could have played out just the same without peter trying to be an avenger like if he was just being true spider-man to who spider-man was and everything vulture still could have found out who he was oh i agree that it's still possible but i'm saying that what happens in the film if you follow the events then it's it's telling us that as a direct result of him having to try and reach that to gain more social capital while also showboating a spider-man has cost him hugely i assume it informs his decision to go after vulture is the fact that vulture said like you get involved in my business i'll kill everyone you love it's just like jesus i'm not sure about the um the social capital having like i do like a very defined kind of irrefutable consequence or negative consequence in the movie that would have played out differently if he wasn't trying to get the card i think do you remember the scene where um they're in the gym and they're doing liz says something like oh you know spider-man's really cool and then ned yells out peter knows spider-man that's the reason why she mentioned spider because he's like i can try and get her at the i can try and get him a party that's a good thing but was that doing this oh yeah but in fairness yes peter didn't want ned to do that he didn't want to use but he banks on it played along with it though yeah he doesn't he doesn't deny it to the party all he had to do in that scenario would go is go and that's just screwing around yeah okay good point but instead he's like yeah i know spider-man i can bring him over and she's like really he's like yep okay good well parried trapped and then yes and then later on i think it was after she says that he knows spider-man that vulture starts thinking like you sound familiar you know what i mean like it gets him thinking it gets his mind racing he wouldn't have figured if they didn't bring that up yeah i would say the biggest piece of evidence is saying you're really close with spider-man it's like he is i love that car ride is so good it's great it's important to acknowledge that peter does indeed face one real big consequence when he loses the suit by trying to do the right thing which leads me to the second big reason why homecoming is a bad spider-man movie the suit hey remember that billionaire superhero that reluctantly takes on high school proj the high school proj is gifted with this really dope high-tech suit the suit has a bunch of cool features including a tracker and it said that a paranoid billionaire hero can keep an eye on the new wise cracking hero the protagonist dilemmas to become his own hero instead of living up to the mantle of the original yeah me too spider-man is i mean i think there's more than one way to tell that story yeah like i've already shared my thoughts on the whole suit thing um and to me it actually answers a slight you know issue pot hole already um and i don't think it undermines the core of what the spider-man character is um so yeah i'm i'm not as on board with the whole suit criticism i guess um is this more the mentor thing as well i don't know it's it because he's kind of conflated them he says he's talking about the suit but he's mainly talking about similarities between batman beyond and well in terms of the mentor muti pro thing i guess we'll have to see how he develops this i was just gonna say i'm not saying he's saying this but does it make the film any worse that it shares a lot of similarities with batman beyond well batman beyond is a good show so it is a good show that like the comparison could actually be used to try and establish that it's an improve so i don't know we'll see uh all right first to become his own hero instead of living up to the mantle of the original yeah me too spider-man is not batman beyond spider-man should not have an ai that he can talk to yes i do understand okay so first of all it's a false equivalence by saying spider-man has a suit he is then equivalent to batman beyond no there are many differences still and i've already even talked about the reason why i feel the the computer having someone to talk to is a very useful narrative tool um to get a very spider-man-esque thing that exists in the comics into the into the movie so we're supposed to be arguing for him well i'm not like i'm sorry i'm kidding i'm kidding i'm kidding this isn't me frigging it's supposed to be like all right yeah we agree spider-man should not have an ai that he can talk to yes i do understand the point of the ai is so that peter can talk to someone to give away his expositional thoughts almost like the thought bubbles in comics but there are so many better ways to give peter introspective moments there are better ways to do it okay i want to know the better ways because i'm fully on board with it i want to hear him though i want him to tell me the better ways all right let's hope he does it there are ways to give peter introspective moments like this i tell this that i'm spider-man who is this who's this she's she's the best she's awesome yeah i just i really want to tell her but it's kind of weird you know i'm spider-man what's weird about that what if she's expecting someone like tony star perhaps make him have a heart to heart moment with net or how about giving him some form of interaction with michelle i mean so to have him discuss it with characters instead no he's basically saying convert all his inner monologue into dialogue and no that's so it's no longer in a monologue it's dialogue okay not only it not only was a chance for him to get all expositionary but it was also to come to grips with his suit functions as well true yeah i mean i'm not saying you can't convert a measure of internal monologue into dialogue but but by the nature of that conversion you change the structure and what it's supposed to achieve or what it could achieve because with his inner thoughts usually he's battling himself or is going through things and as soon as you change that to dialogue if you're gonna do it honestly you're gonna impose the other person's opinion personality into that thought process and it's not the same it's it's a modern you've you've upset a lot of people in chat we've got it's still dialogue when you speak it to an ai yeah and that's the thing too it's all like why why is it a problem that he's talking to an ai again is it just well i was just gonna highlight quickly that uh the ai is more person less than a real character there are things that you say you would say to an ai that can have basic responses that you won't say to a person is kind of the point right exactly and there's very little like greater impact the ai could have on the greater world unless someone like hijacker or anything then a character can like the idea of the inner monologue is their security because you're talking to yourself and you have security exactly and it also means you peter parker with his inner monologue can talk about anything that peter parker knows about like being spider-man you can't really talk about too like well not with mj with ned maybe ned knows who he is but what if he wants to think about how ned is really annoying him can't talk about that with ned but maybe it's still i think there are limitations in trying to convert it all to dialogue and the limit and sorry the issues that you have in talking with the character is lessened by talking to the ai patrified recommends what about having him talk to the dog or a cat from the deli the dog or cat doesn't go with him wherever he's going not to mention that the the ai is able to respond but while maintaining the fact that it's still him alone if you know what i mean yes i guess uh if they wanted to go very stylized they could have done it like game stylized as um text bubbles like from a comic it'd be a bit jarring though that's the thing yeah first to come out of nowhere like that yeah just suddenly mcu yeah well yeah it'd be like in the in our spider-verse yeah but i guess it works better there because it's animated i don't know about you guys but i want karen to get an artificial i android body and become a love interest for peter no imagine how disappointed she be when she sees me well if i were her i wouldn't be disappointed she's so understanding gosh she's a very friendly ai i i would obviously now i'm arguing against my uh yes it's a person i love her so much i do like it sir perhaps make him have a heart to heart moment with net or how about giving him some form of interaction with michelle i mean mj instead of making her a one note character she knows what it's like to be an outcast maybe have peter talk to michelle about his feelings for liz completely unaware of the fact that she's clearly into him that's peter parker esk there's so many better ways to give your protagonist an introspective moment without taking away what makes the protagonist so hang on clearly into him i think you could only say that from you know hindsight and third party like if you if i was peter and i got all this crap from mj that he got in you know homecoming i wouldn't think she's into me i think she's a jerk i don't think the audience should necessarily think she's into him from the homecoming yeah there's there's pieces of evidence but they only get contextualized in far from home as evidence if you know what i mean like oh she's she's kind of looking at him a lot you'd be like you could look at him for a lot of reasons which is highlighted by far from home actually uh-huh so um yeah um but you know could it be good that i just like that's an alternate story i guess because like she's a very um she's a very she she occupies very little of the screen uh mj she's a very thin tertiary character in homecoming so the ideally be like well when you write it so he has discussions with her i don't know i don't necessarily like that because even something small doesn't uh mean that it's not bad or it's easier to not my argument currently yeah but my current argument is that he's suggesting you make these changes and i'm saying like you're taking a character that's barely anything and you're going to change her into a secondary to the very least which is going to change the format of the movie to a degree um yeah um that could that could i could improve it i guess that improve it i guess the idea is that it's meant to be a misdirection like if you if you would go into the movie blind you'd be like who who is this you know why i feel they misdirected everyone if they yeah it was pretty it was pretty obvious you know if anyone looked at the casting things that she was cast as mj and then they know that this is a replace of mary jane for the people who didn't do that it was a far more subtle insert to replace the redheaded character see i don't i i honestly like i you could have just called a mary jane and i i don't think i would have really cared actually because it is kind of one of those things where i'm like uh it's meant to be mary jane though isn't it yeah but see i don't know like that you as soon as you make a connection like that you are creating a story to be judged against just like with spiderman being called spiderman as soon as and so i actually think they were a bit smart to change her name but i don't think it's it's that's just literally because by calling her mj she is mary jane yeah i was gonna say like there's not going to be mary jane and then the mcu because you already have mj if they did i would actually be happy about that oh would you yeah click in the mary jane they're like yeah and you know this is the thing right i actually like because comic book curious and everything and people might say i'm right for this i say shut up let me get my point across is that if they actually if they actually kept the character the same right mj character the same right and cast a actor that matched the original character more more faithfully a redheaded right and kept the character the same but called a mary jane i would actually call that an improvement upon what is actually in um homecoming and this is an interesting um comparison to what we were saying before like if you if the if nothing changes in the movie except the title of the character or something like that how can that improve it well it's my point of reference because of what's my counter my counter would be uh you'll improve the experience for people who are biased towards a character that exists in an alternate piece of media but objectively speaking the writing hasn't changed but i would say that improvement is intrinsically tied to the ability to judge the the quality of it based on how effectively it is how accurately is it is an adaptation yeah so an adaptation argument i agree again it's going back to the argument i feel the adaptive value of something is inseparable from the quality of it um you can judge writing in one category you can judge you know special effects in one category but if you're taking that as the whole is this good or bad the adaptive quality is always going to have an impact on the judgment of it but cgi or shots or acting none of these things would be relevant to a conversation about how good the you know continuities writing is yeah but i'm saying if you're actually trying to objectively judge the quality of something as a whole not the quality of its component parts you need to have a look at the um the cgi you need to have a look at the adaptive i think um my my view on that is stuff like cinematography sound design editing uh visual effects uh like your objective quality your your objective um assessments of like film what's eb whereas you change it for book for a book you'd be doing things like pros or pros um yeah exactly and for a comic it'd be so i i think it varies but the the baseline the fundamental across all stories is the the plot and the and like plot progression characters because that's a consistent in all media it doesn't it doesn't discount the quality i don't i don't think it discounts i don't think it discounts either i i think i agree with you oh wonderful oh no i like i said like some of the some of the arguments have been more just trying to i guess figure out where i stand on it as well that's the value of discussion there you go it's oh for clarification you know molla do you apply the same standard for historical films you could have an inaccurate historical film that's well written because the story is well written but it could be absolutely interesting because like battlefield five we all remember that game i often forget is it um i greatly dislike that historically accurate um and i guess that would be uh discussions about immersion like it's probably difficult sure yeah uh the problems arise with like inglorious bastards which is an awesome film but it's not accurate at all um i guess that's partly tethered to tone what kind of tone you're going for because battlefield five was advertisers like this is gritty you know this is a gritty or well no they avoided authentic they used to call battlefield authentic but then they avoided yeah see that would be a lie at that what did they say they had a word for it they said um there was some marketing word for that i can't remember it wasn't authentic though um because again that would be a lie um woke wow that you can't say that wow shad oh it's oh sorry this is a woke podcast sir i think my favorite thing about the battlefield five things like oh you care about battlefield it's never been really like cool so if battlefield four had laser guns and you wrote on tyrannosaurus rexes and like like oh yeah that's fine because it's a video game you can do whatever you want yeah like i think it ultimately comes down on to what the film is supposed to be there is like by how you define it how what the film is it creates like inescapable standards in which the movie or whatever is going to be compared against would you start like genre definitions for that so even that sometimes yeah like but at historical adaptations like that's a big one where you get a standard that you cannot you separate when you're doing quality i think um i think what i think of there is you know a director would say well this is a romance or it's like well that there literally is no love plot in this story at all it was like well i say it's a romance so it is it's like not that point we have definitions for what we're talking about and it just isn't that anymore something like that and so i guess going back to the point yeah i actually feel it would have made the film better even objectively if they could have kept the character the same but just you know cast the character they actress right to be more true to the source material oh apparently they did say it was authentic what the hell yeah running around with prosthetic limbs and cricket bats okay well if i remember the quote correctly he said how could i turn to my daughter and tell her that women weren't involved or something like that uh uh just bullshit i'm glad you brought up the katana have you i'm insulted they gave exactly that mad jack church gave someone a katana if they want to be authentic yeah there was swords in world war two all right yeah i mean like like mad jack said um any soldier who goes into battle without his sword is improperly dressed he is my hero he is my hero i just love the idea that he went into battle charging the enemy line with a sword it can save your life let's be honest is my spirit animal all right let's keep going yeah liz completely unaware of the fact that she's clearly into him that's peter parker esk there's so many better ways to give your protagonist an introspective moment without taking away what makes the protagonist the protagonist but tell me hang on hang on hang on so he's saying that giving him the suit or the the ai takes makes takes away what makes him the protagonist is that just just just having introspective moments with the robot suit take away elements of his protagonist if that's a weird no not really no i disagree with that that doesn't make sense all right i mean he isn't really qualified it's a problem like i think you might be saying it doesn't he like is trying to say that um he defines peter parker as someone who is always poor and struggling with things and by him having the suit in the ai makes him not the true protagonist version of spider man as he sees it and i would contest that definition of what spider man is um and for reasons i've already gone through here ways to give your protagonist an introspective moment without taking away what makes the protagonist the protagonist but tell me he loses the suit at the end of the second act and goes back to basic spider man stuff yeah exactly as soon as you lose the suit this movie becomes a pretty good spider man flick the if this be my destiny moment you can't set that up without the stuff that you have well you could do it he is contradicting his statement at the beginning there um yeah he said it was good and now he said it wasn't great not even good um and then he is conceding that there's a part in here that is a good spider man is he suggesting that this scene may be good but it doesn't make the film good perhaps perhaps that's what he's saying i would assume that's how it slots in the if this be my destiny moment is my favorite spider man moment since well no no this i also thoroughly enjoy the fact that peter turns down tony stark's offer realizes that he can do better and needs to go that was that was set up by the uh the whole first two acts that again you're cutting out a lot it was set up by the first two acts of the movie him turning down the suit yeah the what makes it a meaningful decision is the is the first two acts is what i would argue the fact that he believes that that's what he wants and then realizes it's not through his own growth so like what i guess what i'm assuming what freanie's trying to say and what i would say is like being like i like that part but not the other parts it's like the other parts make that part yep so offer realizes that he can do better and needs to grow all on his own that's all well and good but he gets the suit back in an infinity war gets an even nicer suit and joins the avengers which leads me to the next one since then but it's but it's it's the minutia matters um the motivation behind it like i want to be an avenger why i want to be an avenger well that's that's not you know you're supposed to be protecting people it doesn't matter if you're called an avenger or not and then in infinity war he's provided the label after he's already committed to actions that would identify him as an avenger well he doesn't he doesn't care if he is an avenger do you understand what i'm saying there's even more fundamental than that if he didn't have the suit in infinity war he would have died true the suit is to protect him from space like so the suit actually becomes fairly essential to that part now could you avoid it that he just got inside the spaceship before into space yeah okay well i mean that's a bit of a stretch for a kid who's never seen a space well i'm sure there's a fuck there somewhere in finnish he does get inside the ship because a flap is open so yeah well not to mention it's not like he had to pilot the damn thing but i guess my point is i don't think it detracts from the story of infinity war especially that by the fact he has a more fancy suit um in in certain elements it could be considered enhanced that enhanced it because he can do some pretty cool stuff with it and infinity war isn't a story about spider-man struggling with being poor and everything like that in fact that's completely separate to what happens in infinity war i do wanna highlight he does get the suit back at the end of the film yes but the third act is proof that he doesn't need it it's just like in the same way that i guess you would argue that cap his fundamentals attested whether or not he has the serum he's a good-hearted hero same for tony to a degree personally i feel it does create a larger inconsistency in the mcu uh as to why i you know uh tony stark doesn't give all the avengers some type of suit to benefit them in whatever capacity yeah like why doesn't like when they have an iron lady exactly she would she would do great with that i like even if it wasn't a full iron man one but it helped out with her espionage i agree he doesn't have goods you know stealth things everything cap could have been done really well with the suit yeah i think that's more than a shield though what didn't he provide him with the shield though yeah but that's kind of why i that's actually why i find it to be a problem if it was all or nothing as in tony doesn't give anyone any tech they do what they do and he tries to help them where he can because he doesn't want to provide any technology outward of himself as a part of his character i'd be like okay but he clearly does give them all upgrades based on their abilities like he gives hawkeye like you know better gear to shoot arrows and it's kind of like okay so why not just like give him armor to like yeah yeah and you might be like well he doesn't know how to use the iron man suit it's like maybe train them they're really good suits i would say it's pretty intuitive based on and then you'd be like well it'll take away what makes iron man iron man in this universe several is right with them like yeah that's true but you know in in in the universe you're not thinking like oh man i'm so unique you're thinking like yeah so we got big alien invasion practically i mean when you have Thor on the team and then you're like black widow she's got pistols and little zappy things you're like maybe we should give her some gear or just tell her to sit on the bench because like holy shit and iron man three establishes that he's certainly not you know um running shy on resources to know some suits and so it wasn't it wouldn't have been difficult so that's a that's an annoying inconsistency that's now established because of this that would be my criticism for it you think black widow would be just a little irritated using little baby glocks and feel the thing is i don't really consider it a homecoming issue i think it's been an issue when you even came out well you cut out again there for you yeah damn i i he's right well i i i still got what he said though he's right is a consistent issue of what you could call will building slash continuity with the mcu as a whole there's especially with Wakanda being introduced now everything gets really it isn't me this is like how does if Wakanda is sharing the the tech holy crap what's gonna happen in future for like i don't know i guess we'll have to see that but does that explain where iron man got the nano tech for his upgrade in oh maybe i'm referring to just everybody getting fundamentally affected like is black panther gonna mass produce those necklaces the next time you know something happens i don't know it'll be useful he's willing to give cap america you know weird vibranium shields that are different but he's certainly willing to pass out some tools so yeah why doesn't he go all the way yeah so i wouldn't say that it it's like i guess high tops like oh so why is he giving peter stuff he won't give anyone else stuff and it's like well he does give people other stuff he's not giving them as good a stuff as him so the problem is with almost the other films rather than this one i think it's kind of the same as you know how far from home has it stuff with um the snap and it's like you almost can't blame him because endgame set up rules that they had to follow and they're kind of deficient broken rules right everybody comes back where they are so if you're in a plane you spawn in mid air and fall to the ground we can we can talk about that we'll talk about you're walking down the street suddenly a hundred people it's just another one was um like what if what if somebody got snapped on the pavement like on the footpath and you're walking and they spawn like through you so you you've got like arms and legs sticking out of you a hideous monster like curl me i think i honestly i think those can be simply hand waved with oh yeah the intent of the snapper is reflected through the thing and also worthwhile to note that planets do move so in reality everybody gets snapped back into empty space yes guys it's on good but he gets the suit back in an infinity war gets an even nicer suit and joins the see i don't even have a problem with that of fundamental character levels like yeah but the point was he learned that you didn't need it to be the hero he is the hero the suit is just a tool avengers which leads me to the next reason why homecoming is a bad spider-man movie the avengers and the entire mcu now having spider-man being the mcu was a web dream of mine literally so when he showed up in civil war i got goose pimples pause it for the sake of copyright i guess i don't even know i don't know what this is i already made a video about why his introduction is so great so go watch that or don't but what seemed like a blessing at first now seems like a curse i want you to remember the days where these superhero flicks weren't all connected where a movie was just a movie sam raymi's spider-man is just a movie about spider-man no sequel set up no character poppins no timeline continuity it's just a film all of those things are not negatives he's he's bordering on blasts for me too it's interesting how can you argue for i hate it okay we're all calmed up superhero movies is like for real that's uh that's very odd you know comics one of the main things about comics that really cool and that the mcu is kind of tapping into is the idea that everything is in yes characters will interact with other like it's cool to you know see you to be reading a spider-man and then just have like sous storm show up for maybe a chapter and then go off elsewhere and then other characters pop up it's like yeah the film is worse standalone but you like the comics don't you the comics aren't standalone for the most part yeah and there's also an inconsistency that exists with these standalone films because these films establish that people with extraordinary abilities can exist and it's not just one off because all the people who's fighting have equivalent ish levels of power as well and so this is a thing that's happening in the world why is it only happening in new york city like yeah and you know so clearly it must be happening elsewhere why aren't the characters even mentioning it like the fact that i'm getting i've got spider powers and oh this is kind of interesting because there's a person with power on this other side of the world doing something like you'd think that would be a fairly relevant point of reference that would come up as soon as you get these powers and it just it's it's like i didn't i've never liked the fact that they were self-contained and only happening in this one instance in this one city in this one point of time always in new york as well i just want to see what were his three references they weren't all connected where a movie was just a movie sam ramy spider-man it's just a movie about spider-man no sequel set up no character poppins no timeline continuity so timeline continuity character poppins and sequel setup i mean it does have timeline continuity there's sorry i think it's saying that there's errors in the continuity which is i thought he was saying the fact that that's a thing they have to actually because if it's saying that nearly having continuity is a problem i'm just like no that's continuity is a good thing character poppins are these are not none of these are inherent well i was just i wanted the character poppin needs to be referenced it's an awesome one it's captain america who is this altruistic wholesome guy he's recorded a bunch of psas for kids schools that's so like that would totally happen yeah yeah that consistency that's great it's it was so refreshing to see it because you're like oh my god finally world is like there's a wheel here it makes it feel lived in you know it's believable a bunch of bread dude the the light of dialogue where he says pretty sure this guy's a war criminal now but whatever the the dismissive pe teacher just doesn't want to be there i was just like oh that's great but uh all right well maybe he's saying i don't know let's see what he says about spider-man no sequel set up no character poppins no timeline continuity it's just a film now i don't have a problem with any of this things i like easter eggs i like it all if those things don't detract from the film at hand and homecoming it seemed like sony was so keen on being able to use iron man the rest of the avengers that every single god damn story beat scene and character moment involves a reference to the greater mcu we have an opening sequence and a villain motivation that directly that's really cool i do well integrated is very well integrated and these other elements can be used to enhance the core spider-man story and that was done in endgame like the implication of tony stark and the existence of the avengers to give him an arc and like even though there are i have there was a certain nitpicky things i don't like and i can argue for the criticisms against it even though i can ignore them for the most part in homecoming yeah like these are not categorically negative things as is stating them it's odd to me because a lot of the seminal comic books have a crossover with oh yeah like like that man dark knight returns superman is a major character in dead of a born again the avengers show up in like the last arm in the last sixth of it i'm seeing it yeah sorry guys oh no i just don't see how this is really anything bad to have these sorts of things maybe he's just i don't know maybe he just kind of prefers the idea of spider-man being very like the most special thing in the in his particular years in new york where there's no others like him maybe that's why he likes it as much as it is but at the same time i don't see how that's a bad i think i think you've honed in on something there i think i think part of the um i think some people have an issue with spider-man is because spider-man is the marvel superhero you know he is the most important marvel superhero in terms of um recognition and impact so it's i guess it maybe does come across as a bit strange that he's not the most important player in the universe you know yeah that's what i mean i think it's i think it's more of a meta thing because spider-man is such an influential part of pop culture and you know when you think of like the big three superheroes it's batman superman spider-man but you know in the mcu there are so many heroes and he's come in late so they need to build it you gotta you gotta work to earn these sort of things in stories you know recognition and um it's part of the reason why people don't like ray in um in star wars it's like she suddenly comes along and she's awesome i mean she sucks as a character but you know like she suddenly comes along and she's great at everything whereas i yeah okay oh no i'm basically finished i was just gonna say also having a point of comparison in world can be a very it can be a great tool to enhance the core story of the character i've got a graphic novel which is the ultimate spider-man sinister six arc right sitting in my shelf next to me and yeah and having him meet oh they're the ultimates in this version which isn't there at the avengers but anyway um meet iron man and tony stark everything there's a scene where tony like um uh sorry nick fury introduces them says like team spider-man spider-man team and tony says like did you go back in timing to get him and they have this kind of attraction where they can't believe he's so young and then um uh then fury says hang on a sec the six guys we're trying to get this guy just beat them all single-handedly everything so basically it is like by having the contrast between these heroes the avengers and spider-man and that is so young it builds his character up that his achieves so much the guys that we're having trouble finding and beating now so don't take him so lightly and everything and that was a character building and enhancing thing by having the contrast in him meeting these other heroes that was great but an example of what you're talking about be that he manages to essentially take the punch from winter soldier in civil war yeah yeah it's just impressive it's just like oh oh you know you're like like don't take this guy so for granted and stuff like so having more characters to contrast and uh to try and enhance the qualities and characteristics of the character you want to focus on is hugely beneficial and useful in storytelling all right well i mean the thing is so far he's sort of declared these things are happening i'm waiting to see how they detrimental i suppose keen on being able to use iron man the rest of the avengers that every single god damn story beat scene and character moment involves a reference to the greater mcu we have an opening sequence and a villain motivation that directly ties into the avengers and more specifically iron man a second opening sequence that recaps sorry yeah people a lot of people say that he's directly tied to iron man vulture's not directly tied to iron man it's the avengers and tony's joint venture with damage control that's the only time his name is specifically mentioned that's what he showed that scene that's just telling us it's stark industries plus damage control equals where they steal from there's no personal vendor to attorney he's got a problem with the one percent he's very clear about that yeah and that's not particular to iron man i just wanted because a lot of people are like saying it's like oh he's just entirely connected to tony stark's like not not necessarily he has as much of a problem with him as he does with thor or like cap or right everyone in the avengers specifically iron man a second opening sequence that recaps the last big marvel movie and contains the backsides of pretty much all the avengers we have multiple cameos from captain america a bank heist to where the criminals are wearing avengers masks references to black but like he said that like it's a problem why is that a problem i want to see where it goes i feel it okay cameos from captain america say their distractions when i don't think it undermines the plot in fact they're used to like in they're used integrally in the plot and stuff well i mean the motivation first and at first the misguided one is he wants to be an avenger yeah so it makes sense that the avengers would come up so some people in chat are like no he's literally tied to iron man so spider man or vulture it's the avengers it's not iron man he doesn't like iron man no for sure for sure doesn't like it but he's when when vulture gets to share we'll get to that we will get to that but um the warehouse when he's like explaining his entire motivation to peter doesn't mention iron man he's just talking about like the people up there like they do he does he does say how do you think your body oh well yeah but that was like a not not an analogy a reference for um how he's not a bad guy right he's trying to explain to peter that he's like he's just a victim of circumstance just like stark is yeah my point is that his motivation to steal from people it's just a matter of the fact that they're they're downtrodden they're the the people who pick up the scraps from the people up high people like us people like you and me you know we got to go through that table i'm not saying he likes iron man i'm saying that i must have forgotten the speech he mentions thorn hulk he mentions the avengers they're in the avengers are they saying that vulture's value as a villain is lessened because he only exists due to iron man i'm not understanding the criticism well that one yeah i i mean i don't mean i don't want to straw man them if that's not what they're saying i'm just trying to understand what vulture is literally tied to i'm at with a vibratium cable all the avengers we have multiple cameos from captain america a bank heist where the criminals are wearing avengers masks references to black widow thorn the rest of the team all of peter's internal conflicts involve iron man and wanting to be an avenger hell holland's three big emotional moments revolve around trying to why is he showing the scene sorry why is he showing the scene where he's pinned on the debris he doesn't um he thinks back to iron man's statement saying if you're nothing without the suit then you don't deserve it all right okay all right the thing is just yes iron man said it but the point is that he's thinking about the statement the sentiment even like whether or not iron man said it is irrelevant at that point this involves iron man and sorry whether or not it came from iron man is what i mean to be an avenger hell holland's three big emotional moments revolve around trying too hard to be like iron man and realizing he needs to be himself yet no when he's picking up the debris it's not that he needs to be iron man he realizes no i need to be spider man it's yeah he's saying come on spider man let's go you you gotta do like i said i see i see that moment as him combining peter and spider man to you know get the job done it's not that he needs to get rid of one or the other it's that he needs to combine them both they're both important that's why he says come on peter then come on spider man they're the two halves of his hull i mean that's pretty evident from that shot isn't it yeah and then a steam place they don't play acc and i prefer iron man jr that's what i'm going for that's a shark no no no that's a full-on meme now but the thing is um it's that is something people criticize that but i don't see the thing is i don't even necessarily agree disagree with the idea that he's mentored by iron man does that make him iron man jr maybe he's not going to be iron man jr post far from home though does it though i mean look at um look well i'm curious what they if their definition is literally was mentored by iron man i'd be like okay i mean like i think of dick grace and it's like he's part of the bat family sure but nightwing is his a nightwing isn't batman and he was mentored by bruce so i think the argument here and i've spoken to more or a bit about this as well as you fringy um is that the idea that he is tutored mentored by iron man and in some instances he seems beholden to iron man's judgment and and stuff even though again homecoming he seems to overcome that but there's that still whole mr stark mr stark thing that is present in his character and and stuff that that detracts away from his sense of uh what is it identity um his independent his strong independent nature that does exist in the comic books and stuff and i think that is something that well that's fair enough to try and consider and to try and determine like is his independent go at yourself well when he goes to himself in the other iterations that's usually by necessity because he doesn't get help not that is choosing to go at himself i actually feel if you had the option to get receive help from others even the true spider-man character would be dumb not to accept the help but because no one is helping him out he has to go it is alone and he never gives up as a result establishes a very admirable strong individual character and that is missing in this interpretation i don't think that a character being mentored i don't think um somebody being mentored in and of itself means that they're not necessarily independent just because they get like independence i don't view dependency and independence as like you know binary i suppose you could reference luke is mentored by yoda and yet he still makes decisions for himself yeah yeah mm-hmm so what is more impressive or you could say stronger a character who is able to achieve the same amount by figuring it out himself well like captain moe oh hang on like if we can see the process if we can see the process and it's justifiable and it's a likable character on the types of beats that they can fall like it's not a complete perfect comparison there because they fail in the many in the way they execute captain marvel but with spider-man and that we have a point of comparison to be able to see how it was executed which is the comic books and and it comes across as a very strong admirable and again into like the notion of is independency a virtue well i mean it shows that they can get things done when they need to get things done and they don't necessarily need to rely on other people that is and in a strong characteristic like uh like when he went to the plane and did that yeah like and we say that that was a good thing because he's doing it himself are you talking about when he goes be when he goes to fight vulture without the suit uh yeah he does that on his own yeah yeah and so and that that is i think we've all been acknowledging that that's a moment of character strength because he is relying on himself and is doing himself um and so people are saying that that characteristic and i i agree with him in this instance is more broadly represented in the spider-man story in the cartoon the comic books everything like that and is a better character as a result um i think that um in the case of this story it's the it's seeing him not be like that that makes it to when he finally does sort of uh do that it's more effective because you get to see he did it he did it differently and wrong and made a lot of mistakes and then he finally you know sort of gets to a point where he does it right and it feels like it was earned because he had to work at it there was a progression if you know what i mean like it there was a progression from uh but could you have the same story with him going through those struggles independently without iron man i mean i i'd say yeah but the thing is i'd say you could i'd say you could have a story like you could do it but that is different as opposed to necessarily better or worse well again this goes back to the can you try and define certain characteristics at an objective yeah but for a heroic character and i think this is one of those things yeah but then you can come back with um uh like when we look at um setting up a character in the arc that they go on you want you you know having them start in a position where they're not as you know they're not doing as well as they could be and then progress towards a situation where they're doing better if you have them doing well at the start and well at the end then there's no progression whereas if you have them starting off sort of doing worse and then progressing and then getting better towards the end you can see that progression hey friend and it sort of ties into his eye yeah somehow two people in chat interpreted your argumentation to support the last jedi who am i how no fringies i find it fascinating if anything fringy just argued the opposite because the last jedi takes a character and arbitrarily flips their switch the last jedi has no progression ray is great at the start and great at the end before we get derailed and i forget my reply to what fringy said let me just try and get that is that um i feel peter parker's progression in terms of what he has to overcome to become a aspirational heroic you know figure and independent strong everything is encapsulated in the uncle ben beginning the the first act of the story and then the rest of the story is enjoying this just awesome character going through not necessarily just going through the motions but going through life trying to struggle and do the right thing with all the problems that he runs in along the way and the comparison would be like trying to say that if superman had an arc where he needed to obtain his powers would that be a better story than seeing superman try and operate with his powers and knowing when to use them effectively well then the moral questions that are associated with it well i just say it's a different story um in the same sense it is different but that doesn't mean it's equivalent i think the argument is making that it is actually in theory and they do have objective points that they're pointing to to say that it is an objectively inferior character as a result and i honestly gotta i just i don't understand that personally i um i imagine that the the arc is of like real importance i'm sorry you know you know what this is like so sorry because again it's point of reference so fringy this is like me trying to explain to you how great the best spaghetti bolognese is when you haven't tasted it it's it's hard to convey but i can try and no i've read i've read spider-man comics like i'm not i'm not sure like this is what i mean it's like i've read spider-man i'm not as big a fan of spider-man as i am of like batman dead of all dead pool and stuff like that sorry i just saw another comment before someone said it sounds like fringy is arguing that who your mentor um no it's it's important because what the mentor believes will inform the way that the character behaves i mean i guess a good example would be you compare when ben was the mentor he was you know he was just a good guy a very straightforward understandable good guy who had a framework that was clear from the very start and really you're not really gonna you understand it even if you misinterpret it even if you don't act on it correctly you understand it the great power comes great responsibility whereas with toni there's that added element of um he's an avenger i want to be an avenger i want his status he's really cool and impressive and awesome even your even your way of trying to define that element of his character sounds childish sounds selfish sounds like and the very fact that these are character qualities he needs to overcome is evidence that they are negative character traits and therefore creates a more unlikable hero as a result whereas the spider-man that's already established and being the aspirational noble character is objectively better because couldn't you turn around and say um yeah but couldn't you turn around and be like well iron man's hang on you cut out again well i mean it wouldn't be like um like saying uh well toni's not a very good hero he's narcissistic he's um he gets his well that's kind of superb he's a woman and oh yeah exactly it's all about execution and toni's stark selfishness and narcissism is executed in a very engaging interesting funny way and stuff like that the execution of these specific character traits in even homecoming like i think even the way that you were explaining it you were explaining it before shows that the execution didn't come across in a positive way i think the execution did come across in a positive way though because it was in service of the uh of the arc but okay but sorry is that you're saying that they are negative character traits though you're saying they're in services negative character traits they are character traits negative specifically because he needs to overcome them in the narrative surely you would agree that all characters should have some negative character traits right well it depends what the character is supposed to fulfill and the whole idea of spider man is to be this aspirational right but like if he has yeah but he has negative character traits well let's look at the let's well hang on let's look at the the core most true version of spider man that is established in most of the works right what are his negative character traits selfishness is definitely not one of them okay um uh you know trying to please other people in lieu of what he decides is right is not one of them either um that was something he did in the early comics so when he was trying to get liz and like the very early comics i need to see examples but we aren't trying to look at the the characters sorry i'm trying to remember there was an instance where flash was in trouble in the early comics and if i remember correctly spider man genuinely considered whether he was like for real should i actually help him if you cut it sorry you're cutting out so god damn um yeah no um in one of the park or are you in voice thing no i'm on uh i'm on the voice thing i think should i notice that that cuts out a lot for me so i've been switching to push to talk lately that might huh let me give that a try um by the way we saw the video we're almost two minutes we have two minutes left we can do it you guys i just i saw you know some say chat that character that flaws is boring and look that's generally correct but again depends on what you're trying what story you're trying to tell and everything like that and and the story of spider man isn't necessarily focused on his character flaws he has very few character flaws he is a noble aspirational hero it's the crap he has to go through because of his character qualities he is choosing to do the right thing and his life is being ruined all these things and so that's the whole kind of point of of the spider man character and he and for that type of story it is brilliant it is uh and uh and yeah so and i'm not saying that there are no flaws i think we could pick out a couple but the flaws that are present in home coming are not the flaws that the character that peter parker character has generally they're some people will even see it as a betrayal of that character type for me they are the flaws of what you can hear me now right this is working yes i'm so good okay all right good good good um for me the flaws are what make the characters like um because you have your positive traits and characters generally should have at least a couple of positive traits but it's the flaws that make them believable um and and you can have characters who are flawed who are still aspirational like i find dead ever would just still be kind of aspirational but you've got a character like dead ever like his morality is very questionable at a lot of times like why he does things um because he's a devout catholic um so he's obviously kind of worried about his eternal soul when it comes to you know battling people um and then the the central dichotomy is like do you you enjoy beating people up or you know or well no for real like the you know and again the execution of those flaws are done really well in dare devil the question is is the execution of these flaws done well in homecoming and i think there is a legitimate argument to criticize the execution of these flaws within homecoming or from without homecoming what more so in hope more so in um far from home absolutely i mean the criticism of the of how it's handled within the film are you gonna be how it comes across to that is his selfishness is his you know um lack of independent in the sense of i don't want to deny you calling it a selfish attribute that he wants to achieve the label of avenger but there is there is there is there is a shit ton of evidence for him being a selfless person in this film um on top of it so the idea of is it handled well i'd be like is a 15 year old who fanboys after the world's you know heroes handled relatively well in this film i'd be like well yeah they have plenty of um progression in each of the scenes to show this is something that's on his mind a lot it doesn't take away from this core value of wanting to help people well that's my point i'm not saying this isn't justified or it makes sense in the pot or anything like that i'm just trying to compare the actual character traits themselves if they these are positive character traits or negative character traits and comparing them to the more established version of spider-man and why people might prefer the other more established version i wouldn't have a problem with anyone preferring it uh it's just but even comparing it trying to say what is objectively a better heroic character um in relation to the what you're using as you are as your metric for that yeah like um well i guess i guess my thing would be um i can just think of a lot of heroes who have deficiencies batman has very clear deficiencies as a person um deadpool is an anti hero so i guess maybe i'm guessing maybe you have like a different view when it comes to you've got the heroes than the anti heroes new villains the metric the metric that a lot of people will be judging it by is the inherent fact that this is a spider-man movie by being called a spider-man movie that's the metric they'll judge it accordingly is it a good spider-man one but then we're just gonna repeat the discussion we've had before yeah so maybe we'll get back to the video very well let's do it to be himself i prefered iron man jr that's what i'm going for rather than spider boy now remember guys this is all my opinion but i think the reliance on the marvel brand definitely makes the movie seem less like a family like an issue of a comic book people often say that's what makes the mcu successful the sense of connectedness you sound like you want to say something i thought you were arguing from the comics i don't understand you well to be fair to be fair to the guy he did uh he didn't try to lump in way too many you know wrong facts or anything like that he got us on that corner store thing and everything so yeah but he didn't get us he's still got a bunch of other things wrong like the consequences and then well yeah but for the most part i do like he's he's been pretty clear that a lot i understand him opinion heavy i understand what i'm not sure i i think i'm on frieze page of the whole like i don't understand it's like is sort of disdain for continuity uh elements yeah it was it was weird because he said that they're okay as long as they don't detract and i don't think he's explained how they detract yeah he really hasn't so it's it's kind of pretty clear that he liked uh spider-man being the lone wolf and pretty much the whole thing i think i think he would have loved the mcu if it was you know instead of i'm one it was spider-man one like it began with spider-man and then iron man was a character that came in later sort of thing and it more revolved around um a spider-man sort of thing it's just yeah this continuity isn't that i guess it only makes the movie seem less like a film and more like an issue of a comic book people often say that's what makes the mcu successful the sense of connectedness no what makes the mcu successful is that it has a bunch of really heartfelt well-made movies with characters we know and give it yeah but this is the thing you're highlighting progression like um and you can't have progression without continuity so and you might be like well it's the important progression it's the characters it's like yeah but you so civil war doesn't work without age of ultron iron man three and iron man one and cap two and cap one like yeah like the scene that's paused on right now couldn't work without the movies that came before and even to go further than that without all the movies that went before arguably we couldn't have gotten one of the best movies ever made in end game like it was phenomenal i don't rely on i like that you like that so much but i think people will be surprised that that's your take on that game i love it it's so good maybe i look i love fan service as well and i was you know there were some great scenes that just gave me fan girl moments and i was like yeah uh but yeah it was so good fan girl mega hard at the uh the after credit sequence of far from home we'll get to that but i just he's talking about he's talking about jameson i'm talking about the other thing oh yeah yeah yeah yeah the shit about yes the easter eggs references set up and all that other shit is just the icing on a well-cooked cake but in homecoming's case if the cake itself isn't that well baked the whole thing suffers i was overjoyed so it's not it's not the continuity is the problem it was the the base was already broken in the first place i guess well then why even bring it up yeah this is this is weird if you're saying that the the cake was baked poorly wouldn't you say icing on the top would have improved it yeah i would think it might have improved it like like if the movie is so bad the only enjoyment you can get out of it is these cameos and internet connected parts of the mcu and stuff like that that's an improvement i would say like yeah i imagine you'd be saying at least we got the continuity yeah i think he wants this cake to have more dead people in it then homecoming's case if the cake itself isn't that well baked the whole thing suffers i was overjoyed when i saw civil war spider-man was finally interacting with iron man captain america even freaking bucky that's awesome that's so damn cool i left civil war so excited about the new spider-man i wanted to know more about him i was excited to get the good spider-man movie again a movie that focused on peter his motivation uncle ben maybe they would even have a screen accurate mary jane a character we haven't seen in 10 years an mj who had an abusive home life and made herself the party girl to avoid feeling alone maybe they would even do the face of tiger moment maybe they they would explore peter wanting to be a photographer maybe he would get his money by posting on the daily bugle youtube exploiting himself as spider-man it sounds like he wants like right i don't know i don't know how to respond to this it's like okay you i can see what you want i see it i get it i get what you want you didn't get what you wanted okay i get it i understand i do but i don't know yeah definitely still wants another ring the movie is like yeah well we got them we got the ring making two cents per video would this younger aunt may not like the idea peter trying to support her how does ben's death affect her i had so many questions after watching civil war and was so excited to get back to a smaller more personal story involving peter parker a spider-man movie that didn't need to set up a universe or have a batman begins as ketone i don't i don't think that homecoming does set up a universe it just benefits from one yeah there's no real like they don't touch on ben later well they might do they might not i don't necessarily see it as a requirement i know that i'm going to be i have to shag you to have a different perspective on that one well i mean i'm not waiting for it i'm just saying like they can they can subtly cover it if they really want or have a batman begins as ketone a spider-man movie that was the clear vision of one director and not a studio but homecoming doesn't focus on any of that it doesn't really focus on anything that makes a spider-man film the movie doesn't focus nearly enough on the human element of spider-man see like i'm with him when he's like it's not doing these specific things and then identifies them and i'm like it didn't do that one yeah it didn't do that one yeah and then he says like it doesn't focus on the human element of the character i'm like oh wait a minute there's a problem there because there's a lot of things that makes character human like need we go straight back to the crying no don't do that 15-year-olds don't cry when they're nearly dead let's not bring up a crying the film director john watz described homecoming as mainly a john hughes high school movie just because you reference ferris bueller doesn't make you ferris bueller i don't think they were trying to be ferris bueller i think they were the reference well i guess if you reference another movie you're trying to be the movie i don't know john hughes movies focus on character establishing characters the relationship between characters yeah and the implication there is that they didn't do that in this film and i would say peter and vulture is some of the most like established and develop well understood characters in the film could ned get some more work sure uh liz sure um what else we got just like yeah this is the protagonist antagonist and then secondary that's about it but um then then the question comes in of how many well-developed characters you're supposed to have in a film no i want to see uncle ben come back with spider-man powers i want uncle ben zombie uncle ben spider spider-man characters the relationship between characters and the drama involved with being in high school that way to approach a spider-man movie on paper is excellent i wanted the perks of being a wall crawler but i ended up getting 13 reasons why spider-man homecoming is not a good spider-man movie is that a final good line you know what we call that we call that a web slinging ass kicking as always guys you can support us on patreon page all right that's it all right so i get where it's coming from i get where it's coming from i don't agree with everything of course but i can understand some of his points and feel some are valid in the end uh it's more the title should be why spider-man homecoming is not a samurai movie like is it he opened with say no you're just gonna say a samurai fab boy it's like well that ending dude that ending were you like i don't know um but yeah i was about to say we're at nearly five hours we've got content remaining before we've even managed to approach super chat so i'm going to try and end the fab there and then we will reconvene to see who's gonna be guessing for the second part of this if anybody i don't know how long everyone's gonna be around for but before we go i would like everybody to now plug their shit so fringy would you like to go first my good man i have a podcast it's links so watch that and that's it for now maybe something soon well so why should they watch your podcast because i told them to it's objectively brilliant so you're gonna have shad guest on it fringy yeah i'll try and get him one time we'll schedule it in see what he can do pencil yeah um yeah linked in the description i'm trying to get to my own stream so i can actually post it but um i am about to uh in the meantime why don't you shad tell them why they should subscribe to your channel as well well it's interesting i don't talk about stuff on my channel it's all about swords medieval stuff no i do talk about pop culture a lot and fantasy and how fantasy you know is adapted into many different elements role-playing games the occasional video game review and stuff but i actually really enjoy coming on e-fap to talk about some things i don't get to talk about on uh on my channel like you know though i do have the occasional movie review like i reviewed um Captain Marvel and and others it's only if i really love or really hate a movie i'm prompt to do a review but uh a lot of fun people do go check it out if you're interested in it i mean i think a good start would probably be the uh the Thanos sword video right that's an easy one for them to get into yeah yeah it's the Thanos sword is dumb hey it breaks cap shield okay so it can't be that it's objectively good well i've made a whole video is that so watch that if you want to see my take yep both are linked in the description and then i guess uh that's bullshit when's your new video coming out no fucking clue dude i'm chipping away at that son bitch well it's a slow process they can continue to see you pop up over on the old e-fap we bring people together here that's the shad set at the beginning so it's objectively true wonderful true i would be willing to come back as long as it's uh before the 26th but yeah uh as insane as it sounds i will be back in like a half hour we'll have a nice break so we can stand up walk around and then discover maybe how we're gonna waste the rest of our lives um oh that's gonna be good the super chats will be read as a collective next stream so this one will be broken up on its own it'll is pretty much all about homecoming the next one will not be about homecoming well it will be to a degree yes i've got a video on the way i'm slaving over the episode five one it's gonna be like two hours it's taking ages it's just like captain marvel it'll come out i swear to god there's people who are saying like he's never gonna do it he's just saying yes i was like no it's coming it's gonna come out it's just gonna take a while i swear to god and then tfa things will happen to oh it's so i hate disappointing fans but i this is why i don't promise a date because it would be even worse they'd be even more upset um but yes it's gonna be nuts we shall return thank you for watching everybody see you soon