 isn't that going considering that okay how many hands okay yeah okay how many of you have ever tried to drive in Los Angeles okay yeah yeah well you know I'm not so okay so yeah we get people there our meetings a little unusual we actually meet in three different locations we start off at Union Station right in the middle of downtown we're there from five to seven which is the official 2600 meeting time after that we move to Fleet's deli which is about a block away we're there till 10 when they close but people don't start turning up till 8 which means that at 10 p.m. we move over to Denny's by the scenic City Jail which is a great place to be hanging out at midnight when they start releasing folks it's gets real interesting but generally even though we're running that late we we still get a large number of people now yeah we're getting 45 50 people a month turning up the problem is we had one month where we actually had a grand total of eight people turn up we said screw this and one often saw a movie we needed to save it much the problem was in Southern California and a lot of other people were saying this as well the scene was dying they had no no point of contact no point of entry to actually talk to people about things they were interested in so we started working on reviving it the main thing that brought it back was we started printing flyers and updating the website regularly and that's kind of brought people in I know you guys were pretty much the same boat yeah we had a I'll give you some background on Salt Lake Salt Lake 2600 meeting started and I think it was 1996 with about two people going to a coffee shop every month religiously who were friends but there was no advertising there was no web page or anything like that nothing in 2600 to say it was there it was just kind of like we're at a 2600 meeting I moved from New York to Salt Lake City and was not aware that there was any you know scene in Salt Lake actually there are slogan for 2600 Salt Lake City is believe it or not there are in Utah because everybody who shows up to the meeting thought they were the only one in Utah and now we get an attendance of about between I think it's like 35 to 40 people which isn't bad considering I'm gonna back on here for a second Utah has two million people in it LA has about what eight million so we're almost we're almost at LA so yeah I mean just the simple fact you're able to bring that many people out of the world work I mean my numbers alone which you know if this is taken as a ratio we should probably have about 160 people turning up every month yes the middle badges I blame you but um when I started going to the meetings it was about two and a half to three years ago there were seven people there so the first person I met was Almas and the DLC who's talking t-shirts in the band area right now we from the first time I went I talked to one of the founders Kenny of hectic.org and said hey I saw your page it was like a one-page thing that said this is where the meeting is and this is where what times we meet blah blah same deal is you know default 2600 meeting times I said I'd like to do something with a little more content maybe get some pictures up there contact information for people who come to the meeting I don't know how many you how many people here attend 2600 regularly or at all well if you go to a 2600 meeting and you meet somebody and you're like you can meet 30 people and then there's one person that you really connect with on something or there's a project you'd like to work on together and then you forget their handle you know super ultra ninja killer or something and you're like I can't remember that tears handle and but you'd like to get in contact with me so when I would go to meetings anybody who is new I take down their you know their handle email address website and you know put it on the page we don't do that anymore because if you can't remember I'm just tired of collecting email addresses but but when we first started out was good because it got people back together if someone fell out of the meeting for a month then they'd get an email from the person who was like hey you know you were talking about that project and I really want to talk about it oh okay I'll be at the next meeting and so people just started coming together I started putting up flyers put them in the issues of 2600 at you know Barnes and Noble borders dropping them in technical schools and the CS departments of local colleges and whatnot and we started getting attendance people were coming a lot more but we were starting to attract a lot of the script kitty slash scene whore group now our attendance was up and that was great we thought hey look at us we have you know these big numbers but the percentage that was actually there to talk about things that were technical or even talk about anything constructive at all it was probably about half like everyone would go off into little groups and talk about things and there was the you know the guys who would run around and try to you know hey so it got to the point where we had all these people and there was someone who showed the meeting one time I got never contributed anything like that he shows up he leaves the food court we have in a food court pretty large one and we're back in the corner spin on bother anybody but he shows up and says like and he goes off on onto out into the mall and he comes back with a couple cell phones and apparently he'd stolen the cell phones from the kiosks out there and he decided it would be a good idea to come back to the 2600 meeting and take these apart and he starts ripping them apart and you know he's like 16 17 years old and at the time I'm like 21 and I'm like you're an idiot I'm the one who's gonna get in trouble for this not you you know they'll just slap you and throw you out of the mall but I brought you here so I was fed up at that point with that with that kind of attitude there at the meeting and I talked to some of the founders and I said I'm gonna lay the smack down I'm just gonna say look here's how it's gonna be we're gonna have structure for the first hour talk about whatever you want talk about movies oh you see minority report did you see you know whatever and then starting at six o'clock we have talks I get on everybody all the some of the Salt Lake guys are here in the front row they will attest to the fact that I will get on their case about dude write a talk come on you got to write something you know you haven't written anything in almost a year and at six o'clock they start giving their talks and when those are over the conversation starts again but since we had those talks it lends to more technical discussions and I basically have said if you don't want to listen to the talks it's a big food court go over there and talk over there but do not talk while someone else is talking I mean you know honestly let's be mature and have some manners it takes a lot to put together a talk and then even more to get up in front of a group of people and present it so have respect for the people who are there if you don't like it go away but that became it kind of became self-policing the technical minded people have taken over the meeting again we've I did a talk that was the first talk ever was last April and it was called script kitties and seahors how not to be one and why we hate them and it was based off of I mean good point you know it's actually the talk is mirrored on 2600 slc.org which is our meeting site all of the talks that are given at the meeting are on that site under texts but so I presented this thing and it was based off of pyro and shatter did a talk called fact the kitties at Defcon eight where they basically laid it down and said this is how you should behave and you don't have anything to prove don't if you know what it's let people think you're an idiot don't open your mouth and prove it yeah I mean people people have this strange idea that the minute you send them to a 2600 meeting it's a license to behave like a complete nutter tit they're the mind boggles I don't understand this it's like you know the normal bounds of society suddenly don't apply and then they look really shocked when there's all these angry people turning on them going what the hell are you doing you know you are not wanted here because of your behavior they don't seem to get this and it's very much a double-edged sword you know you turn up you act like a dick people aren't gonna want you there they don't understand this yeah one of the things is like if we don't want you there if you're not there like if you can come and not contribute and that's fine if you if you're learning or you're interested in learning but if you're sitting there and stealing things from inside the mall and going and breaking that part of our meeting then you know I have no patience for unintelligent people so it's like we laid it down some people were kind of iffy on it at first they're like oh I don't know about this you know I like just going and being social with with people and whatnot but after about six months when they saw the decline in you know the morons basically and the that the discussions that we had were becoming more tech related or you know just learning from each other and being able to say I don't know is it is huge when you go to anything I don't know is okay I don't know if anybody knows that but we have a guy who's really good at that like everyone they'll be like does everybody know what the network OSI model is and everyone will sit there and go yes yes I do and they really don't and someone will go no I have no idea and it's like cool and you explain it really quick and now everyone else can understand because one guy had enough balls to say I don't know so you know asking asking questions you're not taming yourself is appearing ignorant everybody doesn't know everything I certainly don't grifter doesn't know if you don't ask questions you're not going to learn anything and you're not going to get anything out of it and if you're not encouraging people to ask questions the meetings are going to go to hell you know you're going to have a bunch of people sitting around drinking coffee and talking about the DVD they went into blockbuster last night yeah basically where the resurrecting the scene how many people even believe that there still is a scene to that is attached to this a few stragglers hangers on these are the people who will carry this into the future the ones who don't think it's dead or it's not impossible to bring back it's yes you know hackers came out in 1995 and the scene took quite a shot in the gut well that and that and the fact that anybody with 500 bucks to spare can walk down to comp USA by a cheap computer plug it into their phone line and they're now online and that was that was the real thing that started bringing about the demise of everything because you know let's face it the internet is pretty much the full scope of what most people focus on in terms of hacking and hacking to me is not purely about the internet it's about finding ways of doing things that were previously thought not possible by giving people basically cheap all you can internet access that's what the focus became how many people do you still think are playing with the phone system for example I mean there's there's some pretty there are some people out there doing it but it's really bubbled under everything because the focus is shifted and the focus has become very narrow one good thing about the meetings is you actually get a chance to bring the people in who are interested in all these different aspects of hacking and get them together and talk and actually show that there is a focus out there and a sharing of ideas yeah and of ideals what what I worry comes in with resurrecting to see what where I want to move our 2600 me too like we've taken the steps that to have the structure and to start doing the talks and they're mirrored on the website and we have you know the news section that's updated and photos from the media you can go to the Salt Lake City website and and actually like know what went on there because everything is there the talks are there you can see who is there you can read about what happened yeah I was gonna say conversely you know Salt Lake has has a pretty good structure to how everything works in terms of the flow of the time of the meeting we don't really tend to do that what generally happens is is on the mailing list people start throwing out ideas talking about it turn up at the meeting and it's like okay everybody who was interested in the wireless stuff we're talking on the list go over here and they'll take over a corner of the meeting and you know people wondering now but we'll have a core group of people who are actually interested in what's going on and everybody else is off doing their own thing which also works for us I mean it's all in the context of how the meetings being set up and run I think the as far as our meetings go where we're going with this do people still read 2600 anymore can I show hands who reads 2600 all right so there's people out there the whenever I say like for instance on Fnet I joined pound 2600 and say because I heard that oh one of the talks I gave it 2600 it was published I said does anyone have the new issue of 2600 now this is in pound 2600 oh man oh that's a bunch of crap you still read that oh you kitty bubba I'm like yeah this is what the hell this is also an IRC dot 2600 dot net I should point out it's so yeah yeah which is dead now let's go down for a while but yeah but I think where where people need to take it is is getting that back to where it used to be a lot of people say it's a political rag some people say well that's good I like the fact that it's a political rag because I can find out all the politics that I need to find out about that are that involve technology through 2600 and like I'm not gonna sit here and bash 2600 all day but yeah I think it's a little too political I don't read the editors comments anymore I read the articles the ones that are good yeah one of the things that the LA meeting specifically has been trying to do is sort of divorce itself from all of the political bullshit that's going on in the magazine you know we very much understand what the magazine is meant to be about what it's meant to represent and I can't speak for everybody necessarily but I can say that personally I do feel that it's moving away from its technical focus and so what we try to do is very much keep ourselves neutral on that and basically keep the politics out of hacking politics is something that's personal it doesn't have put it this way I don't spend my five bucks on the magazine because I want a consciousness raising session I want source code and that's that's really what it comes down to well that's a good point actually would you mind saying it a bit louder the benefit of the cameras that's a good point and there are definitely things such as the DMCA that that cross both boundaries that are both political and hacking related and I'm certainly I'm you know certainly not going to deny that however I don't feel that hacking should be about politics I feel that it should be about hacking and improving things how the improvements are done that's another question having an article oh sorry I was gonna say it's a very wide-ranging debate I'd be happy to talk about it with you afterwards we just yeah you can go for hours yeah it's there's a difference between having an article about the EFF or having an article about the DMCA versus having a magazine with four to five to six articles about the DMCA four to five to six articles about the EFF things like that you know if that's a great organization I just don't want to read a book about it every quarter but everybody complains about it but nobody does anything about it so that's where like the talk that I did got published it's on dumpster diving and I said hey you know what the hell I'll take this one I'll submit it and I'll see if they publish it and I'd like to see our text area of our website that says you know like I have a list of all the different talks that have been given over the last year and I'd like to see things like you know published in the winter 2003 or you know published in spring of 2003 next to it taking these technical talks and getting them out there for everyone to see well actually you're making another good point here peripherally you know the things you cover don't have to be ultra ultra high-level you know uber technical things you know not everybody needs to have source code thrown at them there are a lot of things out there like dumpster diving that people still you can't go to I've had people say to me oh you can't go dumpster diving like you know dumpster diving is a logical impossibility okay now let me see okay dumpster open trash climb in grab stuff go away you know you can do it and people don't seem to realize that a lot of what relates to hacking is really basic stuff like that and there's a lot of people who need to know about it because if they don't hear about it they're never gonna go any further it's it's gonna give them the push to start looking into things a little bit more than they are already sorry you have a question I'm sorry I can't hear you one of the largest groups is trying to divorce themselves from it like who's putting out the magazine of well okay the magazine and the meetings are two separate beasts the magazine the gap the meetings basically they started in New York City about what 86 7 possible little sooner I'm not sure but you know the idea of the meetings then spread I guess what it comes down to is a case of the views of the management do not necessarily represent those of its employees the thing you have to remember too is 2600 isn't a group 2600 is a magazine and even though you know we're having our meetings under the 2600 name we're no more a part of them than we are the Shriners so she gave you some idea on that doing things like like he said like sharing the culture with people things like that I'd like to see people take what what others have out there update your websites if you're planning to have a meeting that's critical if people don't see their websites being updated on a regular basis they won't come because if it says last updated what was it 1996 yeah well while back I was going through it's actually hitting up every single meeting home page that 2600 have listed on their site just wanted to see what other people were up to you know it's just curious like okay you know how does how does the meeting in Topeka get along you know poking around and yeah we found one that was still listed as active and they hadn't updated the website in you know six years which is a little frightening because well if you've got anybody who wants to turn up to it they're gonna look at it and go yeah right okay it's probably dead or the people who ran it aren't even there anymore yeah I'd like to see that happen like see people starting to do things where you can go and find out what they did and what they talked on and have it there and be able to if I don't feel like writing something every month it would be nice to be able to go to you know the New York City or the LA 2600 and pull one of their talks off of their website and say the guys from LA did this this is what we're gonna talk about maybe somebody who's sitting there listening to that will get something else then they'll go to the website grab it make some changes submit it back to the author of the original talk and it just gets better and better from there things just improve the ideas become better and and people get smarter it's basically what it comes down to as a group as a whole we're a lot more intelligent than we are standing along yeah I mean this is this is also something that's very important you need to get in touch with the other groups not just in your area but on a wider basis you know if for some reason okay I can speak again yeah this is one thing that's important is to go to other meetings that are being held that you know about reason being you know it's a good idea to see what other people are up to but it also it also helps to re-establish the community by doing that I'm gonna do a lot of 2600 meetings in different cities both in inside and outside here both inside and outside the US and really establishing that contact and keeping it firm is pretty essential without it you know there won't be an underground you have to have people in contact with each other who can exchange ideas I totally agree with what he's saying getting out there it would like I don't have the time sorry you know but we have had people come visit our meetings and come from other places around the country and they're like wow you know you guys really have your act together you're doing something here damn that's great oh I wish my 2600 meeting was like this and you know my simple question is why isn't it it doesn't take much because you know you know the sake of making myself sound like an idiot if I can do it anybody can't so I mean I mean essentially a stable meeting location a website that gets updated regularly and a mailing list those those are the three three main things you're gonna need to actually set it up and keep everybody together and things going or an IRC channel yeah or two yeah but um does anybody have any experiences they want to share as far as their meetings how their meetings are structured and what that's great I mean perfect example you know if you're just hanging out in a food court that's what you're doing you're not having a 2600 meeting you're hanging out in the food court you know what's the difference there yeah I mean if you actually equally laying yeah I mean that's that's the other thing too you need to you need to do two things with your location you need to pick it well you got to have somewhere stable because I know you guys are meeting in a food court yeah pretty much we can't do that there's no mall in downtown LA and you know trying to find a meeting place in Los Angeles is great because well just the acreage of the place it's massive so we pick somewhere mutually inconvenient to everybody which is downtown but pretty much you know you meet in the coffee shop you can make yourselves noticeable because you're in a smaller setting you stand out a little bit more the other thing too is you've got to keep good relations with where you're meeting if you burn your hosts you know ultimately you don't know the meeting location they're just gonna kick you out until you never to come back and that's their prerogative you got people stealing things breaking things running around the resting the other customers you know swinging dead cats over their heads and chanting yaba yaba yaba they're not surprised off in that yeah seriously no seriously you know if they don't like you they're just gonna kick you out and no meeting scoot then yeah definitely be on good terms we didn't ask to use the food court we just kind of happened upon it and like I said when it was there there were like seven people they didn't care and now that there's like 40 they started to notice and they like the security guards would come by and they're like oh you're having your computer meetings again and they haven't yeah I saw you guys here last week we're like all right they still haven't figured out it's the first Friday of every month yeah so maybe we're just still there because they don't know when to catch us there's a question I'll give you an example on that we're using the first Friday analogy simply because that's when 2600 meetings are supposed to happen no I mean you can do it anytime I mean to give you some example we've got a dbs me that a bunch of us go to every Tuesday night and you know we turn up in the pizza place we eat pizza try not to leave too much of a mess but it's actually interesting you mentioned the role-playing people because yeah back in the other corner away from us we've got another group that they're role-playing people they meet there the same night we do so it's entirely a possibility I mean you know you can't say like what day you're going to have your meeting on you just do it when it's most convenient for everybody involved and again we're talking about 2600 meetings because we both are on them but it doesn't have to be a 2600 you can say you know it's the whatever meeting and have it on any day you want it's not a necessity although I do recommend consistently using either the same day of the month or like you know 2600 is the first Friday doing something like that so that people you know to show up that time yeah I'm sorry couldn't hear you yeah it's like you know people people call the pay phones at the LA meet occasionally and it's like you know last month this guy calls up he's like no is that the 2600 meeting they're like no sorry it's 2600 let me let me go next door and get them I set the phone down stand there for a couple minutes you know 2600 it's like oh wow you guys are really here you know it's like yeah you know people people keep calling us and people people keep people keep calling the guys next door I guess they got the number wrong in the magazine or something but you know the correct number is then I gave him the number of the pay phone next to me well he's like okay sorry about that so you know hang up five minutes later sure enough you know the other pay phone he's like oh and I forgot to ask you oh you got the right number now so so anybody yeah we don't particularly have like a structured meeting like we have the 2600 meeting and then like we're pretty much separated by about a half an hour each way but we all get together at one guy's house deadhead who's sitting the front row down over here and he's got a lot of land right on the like right near Salt Lake so we have trash fires is what we call we go out there and we have basically bonfires and we talk about things like why hasn't virtual reality taken off and stuff and we just dork out till three in the morning and then go home so I mean we do we do the same usual sort of get together stuff other people do like somebody would be like hey I'm having a barbecue this weekend you know y'all swing on by and you know stuff like that that's pretty informal our meeting well depends on what time you get there the official LA meeting is a union station the train station in the middle of downtown when we go for two hours we then move over to Philippe's deli down the street and then over to the Denny's by the jail exactly well here's like here's my view on this and now if this is any of you out here then I apologize for bashing on you but I'm about to you come to Def Con and you sit in the hallway with your laptop you can be on the internet 362 other days out of the year shut the damn laptop and go talk to somebody in real life yeah I just want to say that since since I drove out here from LA Thursday morning my laptop has been powered for a grand total of 20 minutes because I had to grab a piece of software that completely failed at programming the radios I was trying to program and I turn mine on to dump the images off the memory stick onto the laptop while I'm running around taking pictures the same thing I was gonna say just that's that's the whole point of the meetings it's it's social interaction it's to get people together face-to-face so they can actually talk I'll guarantee there's somebody sitting in the hallway out here that's talking to someone else in a hallway over there it's like where are you I'm a Def Con we're out where I'm in the DJ room oh really oh that's cool I'm out in the hallway by the vendor area sweet you know the con emoticon but yes it's like it's like you know when you're living with your roommates and you realize you're both on the same channel at the same time and there's about four feet of air separating you between the cinder block wall you know this is the same syndrome we're seeing here so yeah meeting somewhere without internet access I would actually say is a good thing yeah I'd agree yeah I mean if that's what they feel like doing then that's fun if they want to sit over in the corner and talk on a well instant messenger to their mom somewhere or whatever yeah and that's great you know everybody needs a hobby so like we're not as long as they're not sitting there having that like a knowing sound going off every two seconds while someone's given a talk and more power to you sitting down on her if you want to then they won't learn anything I mean that's great if they like to come to the food court once a month and sit on the internet then and you know everybody it's a free country yeah I mean and for now yeah I mean you know it's only it's only natural people are gonna turn up and bring their laptop or whatever because you know it's like a couple months ago I couldn't figure out why the hell window maker would not build on my laptop I to this day somehow it did it it works it shouldn't but that's another story yeah people turn up and you know they'll bring their machines and say like hey take a look at this or hey do you know anything about this and that's fine you know I've got no problem with that it's just internet access put it this way the internet has become the current equivalent to video rental in the 1980s it's it's something to switch off to it's it's passive entertainment and really if you're going to the meeting to do that why not just save yourself the time and travel and stay at home and sit on a well instant messenger there everybody you're talking to on IRC is probably going to be at the meeting anyway yeah you might as well go and just talk to them any more questions or any experiences in there's a million right there there you go another meeting there are alternatives to a 2600 meeting the reason we do 2600 is because it's there it's established people know what a 2600 meeting is and you know and hopefully then you know security geeks will gather around under different names but okay did everybody hear the question the threat of more beatings to come is very effective you know honestly yeah it kind of works out but I find that the way to deal with people who are just being completely rude and obnoxious is public humiliation yeah they're sitting around with about 30 of their peers and hey while it may not be the right thing to do it works for me so I'm gonna use it and it's like we had we had one guy he stood under all good here's that that's a great point what good oh yeah yeah pretty much to give you to give you an example of that we had one guy who used to turn up at our meetings semi-regularly and I swear to God this guy he looked like he was Johnny Lee Miller's stand-in and hackers okay now he also had a little bit of the I am Mr. Uberly super ninja hacksaw dude about him okay and he and I are talking and you know it's one of these things where it's like I'm the first person to turn up at the meet because I can juggle my work schedule so I'm always there on a Friday pretty much you know we're sitting there talking and in amongst telling me how ledious he's like I got a problem with my laptop I can't figure out okay whatever show me turns thing on and Windows 98 can't find the Windows Windows driver model driver for a sound card now this guy hands me a thing and I'm like dude yeah your host and sit there and probably fix it for me and back to him and you know that was that was a good object lesson in teaching him if you can't fix your goddamn sound card problem don't tell me how how how much you know because you don't and he you know after that he calmed down I mean he that he was a pretty decent guy that's like if somebody you can be a total tool as much as you want to be but people won't respect you if somebody was being a complete idiot for the first two to three months they came to the meeting and then realized that they were being an idiot and came up and said hey look you know I was being stupid and I just want to be here to learn then it's like you know what that's cool you know I mean we're not saying that because you were stupid once you're an outcast for life although as far as the group goes the damage has probably already been done so it's like just keep your mouth shut and listen for a little while you should get one there so that's a thing like even hardware hacking like whatever you're into somebody out there will be interested in the same thing and to like touch on what you said about like you know saying out the meetings not here that's like how many people heard that it's canceled it's postponed yeah okay this is I heard Defconn was canceled from some people on IRC is this true yes yeah yeah don't don't go to Defconn it's not happening it's over if it was on Fnet yeah it was true IRC is real life actually speaking actually sorry just one second we have some giveaways here from the people at Unix surplus I personally would call it a doorstop but it's actually a spark IPX and some kind of it and some kind of some kind of external scuzzy enclosure here so good questions get prizes there you go so go ahead actually interesting you mentioned that yeah every once in a while and by and large they're not really interested in this we don't care yeah only enough the actually the LA field office the FBI just to touch on this a little bit it's pretty well aware that we're just a bunch of geeks getting together we're not the problem you know we could potentially be the problem but you know it was like okay something happened oh that was other kids so yeah we do yeah we yes and no if there's this is sorry this is one other thing there's a lot of people out there right now who do not have the maturity or self-control to understand the ramifications of what they do to give you an example there were some people making phone calls to Afghanistan on stolen government emergency telephone system cards a while back they very wisely chose to do this on September 13th 2001 now these people assumed that oh yeah they'll never find us well actually they weren't actually part of our meetings they were just other kids they were just other kids sort of in the area and it was made very plain to them that their actions weren't acceptable and what it came down to was they didn't have the foresight to be able to understand how what they're doing would affect other people and you know they're now known as persona non-grata well as far as the 2600 Salt Lake City goes with with law enforcement we haven't really had any problems we get the mall security like I said who comes by and I got there's a picture one time I had him handcuff me and they were really like nervous that they were gonna break my wrist or something and so they're pretty cool with it on that in that respect we've had like when back last August we did the protest for Dmitri and we had Salt Lake Police the Highway Patrol and the State Troopers like it was like we've got nothing to do let's all go see what these dorks are doing on the corner so and once you once you explain that you're you know people pretty much think don't say don't say hacker say we're just a bunch of geeks because geeks are harmless even the road trip we were getting ready to leave we're all in the parking lot of it like a diner and and the cops show up there were some people that were out there before we walked out that were like kicking cars as they went by because they were completely drunk but so they leave and then we go out and the cop thinks that that's us you know and we're like no no no we're we're just total dorks on our way to Vegas and so you know the cops like really you know like yeah we're we're going to computer convention he's like all right well you guys have a good night yeah so you know a bunch of geeks in a parking lot at two in the morning strapping wireless antennas to a van kind of blue cap I don't have any patience for that if somebody's doing something illegal or if they're breaking something I get real ugly real quick so it's usually taken care of immediately yeah I mean usually usually a real quiet just taking off to the side and the same listen man you know you're not wanted here yeah you don't necessarily like just flat out you make it well now that they're unwelcome everybody else knows that they see the guy around again they don't you know they don't drag him back they don't bring him around right oh you haven't get that get his docks or something you know I mean this is the other thing you know the place where we meet we're right next to a main fire station we're in downtown we get cops in and out of there just having lunch you know it's a little of their shift they're hungry they're gonna grab a sandwich and these guys they know what they know where they're we know they're there who cares you know the nobody they don't even notice us we're just other people in the restaurant yes yeah I mean that's that's the whole thing about policing yourself you know if you've got people who are causing problems you've got to get him out of there because it's gonna come down on everybody else ultimately yeah there's it doesn't you know good to have have the meeting shut down because one person isn't it yeah basically they made a good point if you don't police yourself the cops will so you just like I said though when it gets to the point to where you have like a technical agenda and you say like you know or some kind of structure to a meeting where people discuss things the generally the people who are gonna cause problems or are you know just there to be stupid won't go because they have if there's only one of them they have no one else to feed off of you know idiots are great when there's two of them you know feeding each other on but when there's one of them and a bunch of intelligent people they get really uncomfortable really fast and they'll usually head on out the door or just not show up the next month so it becomes a self-policing meeting and we just start getting stuff yeah let's give stuff away actually you can you can come up here and battle it out for the question we'll give you a spark you get somebody as good-looking as us I don't know yeah that's a good you know if you figure it out you let us know that is a good question okay what do you want to spark her an enclosure no you are taking one of these okay so that's sticking us with it sure I gotta for being bossy yeah that that's that is how about how about an enclosure nobody else wants it you don't get it dude yeah we have a bunch of them at the scavenger hunt table go over there and register a team and win the scavenger hunt you'll get a couple of them so anybody else yeah sure yeah go ahead if people are interested they'll stay I mean it's not it's not like growing plants you know you don't you know water and feed them if people like like what's going on they'll come back and as far as getting new members you know do the flyer thing you know update the website get yourself listed in the back of 2600 and even like a message for or something like that would be good and then when you get to a point to where you have like 30 some odd 40 some odd members people just start showing up word of mouth we'll get it around so we don't really work on group projects that's like a 2600 group like there are individual groups within our 2600 meaning like the hectic crew and ZZQ her groups rhyme but our accomplishments are getting this out there getting like all the talks like that's what we have DVD ripping the right way intro to ham radios basics of foot printing pirate radio tracer out explained vnc the art of laziness actually stuff like that we just get the information out there and that's what we're trying to accomplish with it this is actually touching on something else that's a pretty good point you can come up with projects out the wazoo while you want I mean you can sit there and come up project after project after project and you can't make people do it if people are interested they'll latch on to them but you can't say like you know this month we're going to and expect everybody to sit there and you know turn in the little worker hive and build or do or whatever you can't get a bunch of people who don't like programming to sit around yeah and program so yeah I don't like my first name so I'm grifter I don't like his first name I really I couldn't hear what you said no we always ask like you know if you don't want to be on there you get a blurred face if you don't want to be on there then you know you don't have to be it's not like yeah like I said that that part of the site we don't even use anymore so I mean we don't we don't even have much in the way of pictures of people up there and we've got like our 10th anniversary pictures you know and it's it's pretty much a case of it's a meeting you're supposed to be turning up you know if you don't know anybody there it's not going to do you any good to have the faces beforehand but you know like you said the second knowing the guy you were talking to last month it makes sense yeah and for the most part all the pictures that we take each month like I put a little description of what it is if I can think of something witty so which it usually isn't but any other questions I don't know but I think we should give that guy something because he's got the number 23 on his shirt same as you know regular it's Friday first Friday of the month five to eight and then afterwards if you're smart and invited there's a after meeting at a bar so you actually have to have been on the BBS at some point in your life to go that and it's at the food court just in the ZCMI mall in Salt Lake so it's in the back of it let's give this stuff away and get out yeah okay who looks most deserving of an item let's make him do something stupid okay let's see battle of the geeks for now that's that's just sad and boring I've seen that happen before we should just give that guy a spark let's give him a spark just give me you can come get the spark man yeah we come get the spark you are worthy of the spark okay all right just being difficult let's give it a something okay yeah I got it oh caddy loader no caddy so this fine scuzzy enclosure um okay who would do something stupid and or demeaning for it holding up a laptop is neither stupid nor demeaning but it's ready yeah you know okay the red hat guy gets the enclosure thanks for coming out thanks folks