 Felly, the Government will consider all of those issues as part of the budget process that follows the UK spending review. The next item of business is a debate on motion number 14688 on the name of Jackie Baillie on supporting Scotland's children. I invite those members who would like to participate in this debate to please press the request to speak buttons now. I call on Jackie Baillie to speak to and to move the motion. Fourteen minutes, please, Ms Baillie. Thank you very much. Sut y cadwch iawn yn ddechrau'r Ysgrifffordd a'r diwylliannau a'r ddefnyddio'r ddefnyddio. Felly, mae'r ystangboread wedi gweithio'r ysgrifffordd a'ch cymaint eich chynlluniau i ddiolch â'r minister i ddim yn fawr o'u parwyr gyda'r awg? Mae'r ystafellol eich pryd yn tydd gyda'r chyf performsbyt yng nghymru i gael i ddiweddolodol i ddim yn cwarthio'r hyn a dwi'n angen i'r adnodol yn ei ddefnyddio'r ysgrifffordd is more important to them than helping working families in Scotland. We have the power to make change, we have the money to pay for that change, the question is, does the SNP have the political will? Scottish politics is about to get real and presiding officer, it's not before time. At Scottish Labour conference in Perth this weekend, Kezia Dugdale outlined Labour's plans to protect working families. Scottish Labour will restore in full the money for tax credits. Scottish Labour will make different choices on tax to the SNP government in Edinburgh and different choices to the Tory government in London. We would not implement the Tory tax cut for higher-rate earners, we would not implement the SNP's tax cut on airlines. Tax cuts actually cost money. You spend money to cut a tax, but we would spend that money differently. We would use that revenue to restore the money lost for tax credits for families in Scotland, using the new powers coming to the Scottish Parliament through the Scotland bill. Murdo Fraser. I am grateful to Jackie Baillie for giving away. Can she spell out to the chamber how much money will be raised by the tax changes that she proposes? Jackie Baillie. I will later on in the course of the speech, but I wonder whether I could get Murdo Fraser to reflect on the words of a Tory MP, David Davis, when he said, the government needs to look at this again for three million families losing £1,000, doesn't mean cancelling your holiday, it means an empty pantry. I hope that this doesn't turn out to be our poll tax. I wonder, in Murdo Fraser's opening, whether he would confirm whether he agrees with David Davis or not. Labour will use the new powers coming to this Parliament to fulfil its historic mission to stand up for working people. I can promise you that no-one will pay more tax than they are paying now under Labour's plans to restore the money lost from tax credits, not one penny more. We would use the air passenger duty of £250 million to help working families rather than give a tax cut to airlines as the SNP proposes. We will not increase tax thresholds for those earning over £42,000, which the Tories propose, giving funding to answer Murdo Fraser's question of £440 million. There is more than enough from both the sources to fully fund the policy and even a bit more. The SNP really needs to keep up. The claim that our funding has already been committed for education is absolute nonsense. Unlike the SNP, we do not spend the same amount of money over and over and over again. As Kezia Dugdale outlined at the weekend, we will use the powers coming to Scotland to set a £50 talk rate of tax on those earning over £150,000 a year to invest in education, specifically a fair start fund for our poorest pupils. An idea that was praised this week by the Commission on School Reform, which criticised a lack of urgency from the SNP on closing the attainment gap between the richest and the rest in our classrooms. The Government amendment is factually wrong, but I do not imagine that that would bother Alex Neil too much. Why let the fax stand in the way of him spinning yarns? I fully expect from him a pantomine-dame performance to distract us from the paucity of the SNP's position. The SNP motion says that we do not have the power. What rubbish? John Swinney says that we do not have the money, but I have just demonstrated that we do. This is about political wealth. Alex Neil has over 5,000 families in his constituency who are in receipt of tax credits. Today he has turned his back on them, offering them a pitiful excuse rather than real action. He is putting grudge and grievance with the UK before action that will help working families. He is using the constitution as a distraction and simply an excuse. Like the SNP Government, Alex Neil is very, very good at talking, but not so good at doing. It was just last Sunday—he knows that I hang on his every word—that he said that tax credits can be a lifeline for families on low incomes that rely on them to get through daily life, put food on the table, heat their home and pay their bills. I agree. He said that removing this vital support from thousands of families will widen the gap in equalities and push even more people into poverty. I agree with that, too. He said that the UK Government's plans are a clear attack on low-income working families and that those families must be protected as a matter of urgency. Alex Neil can claim the match ball. That is a hat-trick of things that I agree with him about—both Alex Neil and I oppose Tory austerity. The difference between us is that I am willing to do something about it, not simply ring my hands and tell everybody how bad it is. Let's take action. Let's see the possibilities of devolution and use the power to do good. I am willing to unlock the potential of devolution and use the powers of this Parliament for the purpose of standing up for working-class families. In a second, the SNP wants to hide behind the Constitution. Stronger for Scotland, not for working families, the SNP aren't. The First Minister said that she wanted the motto of our country to be Can Do Scotland. I agree with that, too. It's just a pity that she leads a Can Do Government. Kevin Stewart. I thank Ms Bailey for giving way. In 2013, Ms Bailey said that I'm not saying that you know we can't develop our own welfare system. I'm saying that we shouldn't develop our own welfare system. What has changed her mind and why doesn't she want to develop all the welfare powers that are devolved to this Parliament? Jackie Baillie. Jackie Baillie. This is so typical of the SNP to hark back to the past. 55 is greater than 45. You didn't win the referendum. The people of Scotland settled will is to have a partnership with the SNP. The SNP said that the SNP wants to have a partnership with the SNP. The people of Scotland settled will is to have a partnership with the UK Government. Let me talk about tax credits, Presiding Officer. Let me talk about tax credits, Presiding Officer. Because tax credits work. They boosted people's earnings in a targeted way to really tackle inequality. They lifted hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty. They allow families to aspire to more than just making it to the end of the month or the end of the week. David Cameron has broken his promise not to cut tax credits. It is working families who are paying the price. In Scotland, nearly 350,000 families rely on the money from tax credits, with the average family being more than £100 a month worse off as a result of the cuts planned by the Tories. This is a tax rise on the working poor. 70 per cent of the money saved by this tax rise on working people will come from the pockets of working mothers. In a few weeks just before Christmas, families were due to receive letters on their door mats, telling them how much they are going to lose. What a cruel way to break a promise. I never thought I would say this. Thank God for the House of Lords. Labour, working alongside cross-benchers, led the defeat of the chancellor's plans in the House of Lords, and he has been forced to think again. We must keep the pressure on the Tories to cancel their plans to cut tax credits, but if they ultimately refuse, we will stand up for Scottish families come what may, because it was not just the Tories who made a promise to the people of Scotland. Labour and the SNP promised working families a break from Tory austerity. That is why we should use the new powers coming to the Parliament to restore the money lost from tax credits for working families in Scotland. A few members of the chamber could have been as vocal about this Parliament taking on more financial responsibility than the leader of the Scottish Conservatives. I have no doubt in my mind that Tories will probably run on a ticket of tax cuts for next year, but they cannot, as they appear to want to do, claim to be caring or compassionate Conservatives if they let George Osborne cut tax credits for working families. If Ruth Davidson does not intervene to stop this, she and her party will stand accused of introducing a measure that is even worse than the poll tax in Scotland. Anything short of that and the mask slips, and we will know that compassionate conservatism is simply a sham. We have, of course, been here before. The Tories make a cruel decision at Westminster, the Scottish Tories look awkwardly at their shoes and the SNP do anything at all to avoid taking responsibility. That, of course, was the bedroom tax mentioned by the SNP in its own amendment. For months, the SNP said that protecting vulnerable Scots from the bedroom tax just could not be done, despite Scottish Labour saying repeatedly that it could. We had the money then, we had the power then, but the SNP did not have the political will to do anything about it. Vulnerable people had to wait a year for action by the SNP. John Swinney has elected not to speak in a debate this afternoon about tax choices that this Government faces today. He eventually admitted that he could mitigate the impact of the bedroom tax, but he did not want to do it because it would, and I quote, let Westminster off the hook. What a shameful thing to say when you claim to be anti-austerity. The reality is that the SNP set up constitutional excuses to avoid blocking the bedroom tax for as long as they possibly could. They had to be dragged, kicking and screaming into this chamber to a decision by Scottish Labour. It is shameful that they are attempting to play the same red herring yet again, but they should be careful because people saw through it the first time they will see through you again. The SNP Government is trying to claim that we cannot do this, that we cannot protect working families, but let me tell you we can. They are trying to claim that the new powers coming to Scotland will not allow us to make fairer choices on tax credits, but let me tell you they will. Clause 21, how? Well, listen. Clause 21 of the Scotland bill gives us the power to do it, and let me quote from the Scotland office. Holyrood will be able to top up payments to people in Scotland who are entitled to a reserved benefit. Those payments will be in addition to the reserved benefits and will allow the Scottish Government to provide extra money to people on reserved benefits where they consider it necessary. The independent experts at the Scottish Parliament Information Centre agree that there is the power to top up tax credits, and so do the independent experts at the House of Commons library. Ms Bailey, are you not aware that the top-up and reserved benefits are only in case of severe hardship? If someone has had their benefit taken off them, you can no longer top it up. Jackie Baillie. What is fascinating is that the member clearly does not understand the detail that is there. How many times does she need to be told that the UK Government says we can top up, Spice says we can top up, and the independent experts at the House of Commons library says we can top up? Let us just talk about independence for a minute. Ardo, please. I know that you are keen to do so, because it was just over a year ago that the SNP tried to claim that an independent Scotland could share the administration of welfare with the rest of the UK. Now they are trying to claim that a devolved Scotland with powers over tax and welfare cannot restore the money for tax credits. How absurd is that? A party of government who claimed that after independence they could run a different welfare system using the UK system now pretends that it is impossible to run a different system inside the UK, even with the UK Government offering to do just that. Alex Neil should be embarrassed to be peddling that nonsense. He should be especially embarrassed as he is doing it to avoid protecting working families. Politics is about priorities, it is about values. Joe Biden said, do not tell me what you value, show me your budget and I will tell you what you value. Rather than hide behind the Constitution, rather than peddle the familiar politics of grudge and grievance, the SNP should try something new. Maybe they should show us the money. Just tell us what is more important to him, his party and his government, the incomes of working-class families or the price of a business-class flight. The SNP has the power, they have the money, but do they have the political will? I am proud to move the motion in my name. I now call Alex Neil to speak to and move amendment 14688.3. Last night, Jackie Baillie voted with the Tories to spend £167 billion on the new generation of weapons of mass destruction. I find it incredible that less than 24 hours later she is still leading for Labour as a spokesperson on public services. How can Labour have any credibility on public services when its cheerleader in this debate votes to spend £167 billion on warfare instead of welfare? To be fair to Jackie Baillie and I am always fair to Jackie Baillie, her colleagues in London also failed to oppose the Tories welfare reform bill. Indeed, the then-acting leader of the Labour Party, Harriet Harman, wanted to vote for the Tory welfare reform bill, but she did not want to vote for the Tory bill. At the end of the day, she eventually agreed to merely abstain, but at no point did I hear Jackie Baillie criticise Harriet Harman for wanting to vote for this Tory bill. Jackie Baillie herself made it clear during the referendum that she was opposed to social security powers coming to this Parliament. Had Jackie Baillie had her way and no powers be coming to this Parliament, we would not now be getting the power to reverse the Tory tax credit. Cabinet Secretary, could you sit down please? I have a point of order from Rhoda Grant. I thought that it was in order that a member spoke to the debate and not the debate of the previous day. The cabinet secretary is opening the debate with debating points. He is speaking about welfare and it is entirely up to me whether I stop the cabinet secretary or not. Cabinet secretary, could you continue now to talk to the debate? Right, they do not like the truth. If we had listened to Jackie Baillie and social security powers were to be denied to this Parliament, we would not be in the position now to undo the dirty work of the Tories on some tax credits. No wonder the Scottish Labour Party has no credibility when it comes to fighting the Tory cuts. Unlike the Labour Party, the SNP has fought the welfare cuts, tooth and nail and every opportunity while they tried to get into bed with the Tories. Unlike the Labour Party. Cabinet secretary, could you address your remarks through the chair please? Unlike the Labour Party, we will not run up the white flag while there is still a realistic chance of forcing the Tory Chancellor to drastically amend his proposals for tax credit cuts in the autumn statements. Those cuts will do enormous damage to the living standards of some of the poorest working people in Britain today. In Scotland, we estimate that the impact of the proposed changes will be that 250,000 working households will lose tax credits on an average of £1,500 a year just from the changes that are to be brought in in April next year. In the longer term, if the full set of cuts is implemented, low-income households with children could lose an average of £3,000 a year. That is against a backdrop of a cumulative total of £6 billion lost to the Scottish Social Security budget through previous cuts. This year alone, there will be cuts of just under £2.5 billion in Scotland. Unlike Labour, the SNP will continue to demand further amendments to the Scotland Bill to give the Scottish Parliament power over all tax credits policy. I hope that Labour members will not listen to Jackie Baillie again, but will agree that it is too dangerous to leave tax credits under the control of the Tories at Westminster. Labour has to give a clear commitment to support the SNP's amendments to the Scotland Bill to ensure that the Scottish Parliament gets the power to do what Labour says it wants to do. If Labour does not support those amendments, it will have no credibility in relation to tax credit policy. Although, Presiding Officer, I also welcome the new amendments to the table today by the UK Government, which goes much closer towards what we had asked for in terms of the powers that are required. As SPICE confirmed, until today, until this new amendment, which Jackie Baillie did not know about clearly, was placed on the order paper in the House of Commons, the reality was that we would not have had the power to do all of what Labour is presiding. Ms Baillie, three weeks from today, we will find out if George Osborne is going to revise or refine his tax credit proposals when he makes his spending review statement in the House of Commons. The SNP will continue to demand the total reversal of the tax credit cuts in the autumn statement, but if the Tories continue to force through changes that are to the detriment of hard-pressed working families in Scotland, the Scottish Government will not stand by idly and watch the living standards of our poorest families fall off a cliff. Once we know the facts, once we know the shape and the content of what the Chancellor's final tax credit proposals look like, we will then consider carefully what action needs to be taken to protect the living standards of our most vulnerable children and families. Presiding Officer, we will give urgent serious consideration to what the consequences are for the people of Scotland arising from the Chancellor's statement on 25 November. We will look at what corrective action needs to be taken on tax credits, when such action needs to be taken, how it should be funded and how it should be administered. I will now take intervention from Mr Fraser. I am very grateful to the cabinet secretary for giving way. In relation to the point that we made just a moment or two ago, can you just confirm his understanding of the Scotland Bill, as amended, assuming the new amendments that he refers to go through, that will give this Parliament the power if it chooses to replace in full any reduction in the tax credits that he is referring to? The amendments today should give the Scottish Parliament those powers. Until today, none of the amendments that have been tabled would have given us that power. That has been burned by various people, including the great John McTernan from the Labour Party. Presiding Officer, we will properly address the needs of people affected by cuts in tax credits. We will look at the issue of new claimants that Labour has not. We will look at the time gap between the implementation of any tax credit changes and the date from which this Parliament will have the power to fill the gaps that Labour has not. For example, the policy levers referred to by Labour will not be devolved to us till next year. Power to set the higher-rate threshold for income tax will only come to this Parliament from April 2017 at the earliest. Responsibility for air passenger duty will not be devolved until 2018. Labour has not done their homework. They have tried to work this out on the back of a postage stamp. Presiding Officer, as a serious Government, we will do the job properly. We will establish the most effective way to administer any top-ups to tax credits. We will properly cost our proposals before we bring them before this Parliament. We will identify where any additional funding will come from. Unlike Labour, we will not draw up our proposals on a whim without proper research and consideration. We will make sure that we get this right for the people of Scotland. We will continue to fight against the Tory tax credit cuts and other unfair cuts in social security benefits. Unlike many in the Labour Party and unlike Labour, we will deliver on this issue for the people of Scotland. Presiding Officer, I beg to move the amendment to the motion in my name. I now call in Murdo Fraser to speak to and move amendments 14688.1. Mr Fraser, six minutes. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Can I start the debate by warmly welcoming the return of Jackie Baillie to the Labour front page? As Jackie Baillie knows, I am very fond of her and I was more than a little concerned yesterday at her future career prospects, given her unaccustomed role banished to the backbenchers. I feared that she had gone from her normal position of a loyal frontbench stalwart to that of a rebel backbencher. Fortunately, the true Scottish Labour leader, Mr Finlay, has hauled her back into line. Now we see her restored to her rightful place. Long may she reign on the Labour frontbench and have the good sense to continue to vote with the Conservatives. Presiding Officer, on Saturday it was Halloween. As I took my children guising around the streets of Perth, they were terrified by the endless procession of hideous, misshaping creatures from the underworld, ghastly ghouls and the undead stalking the streets. I am sure that it was only a coincidence that the Scottish Labour Party conference was being held in our city just at that time. What we saw at the weekend was the zombie figure of 1970s-style socialism, which we had all thought had long since been consigned to its grave, hauling itself back from the earth and coming back to strike fear and alarm into the people's hearts. Today we see the first fruits of the decisions taken at the weekend at that conference, the announcements made under the new Corbynite Labour Party. Today we see the Scottish Labour Party taking a step back in history to a time of tax and spend economics, to a time of higher taxes clobbering working families. Let me deal with the tax credits issue and try to respond to some of the points that Jackie Baillie made. We have been very clear in this party. We want to move Britain from a high welfare, high tax, low wage economy to a lower welfare, lower tax, higher wage one. The reality is that under Labour, the tax credit bill was allowed to spiral out of control. The cost trebled in real terms in 10 years, from a system costing £4 billion in its first full year to £30 billion in 2015. Under Labour, 9 out of 10 working families with children were eligible for tax credits, including a number of members of Parliament who by no definition could be described as poor. The whole thing had become an absurd extension of the welfare system. Don't take my word for that. Even the former Labour Chancellor, Alasdair Darling, said that tax credits were, and I quote, subsidising lower wages in a way that was never intended. The changes being introduced by the current Conservative Government coupled with the introduction of the national living wage and record increases in the income tax personal allowance mean that 8 out of 10 working households will be better off in 2017-18 by an average of £130. I will happily give way to the member. I do not accept your premise on relation to tax credits, but even if you did, can you explain to me why, in this period of transition over to high wage, low welfare economy, it is the poorest families in our communities that have to suffer right now? Let me respond directly to that point, and the same challenge was made by Jackie Baillie. We do accept that there is an issue with the transition that the national living wage kicks in. That is exactly the point that Ruth Davidson raised some weeks ago. She raised it in public, she also raised it in political cabinet on a number of occasions. It was an issue raised by other people in the Conservative Party, among them the leader of the Welsh Conservative Party, the mayor of London raised it and a number of Conservative back-benchers that Jackie Baillie referred to. We look forward to the autumn statement and hearing from the chancellor how he will address those concerns, many of which we share. Today we see Labour's solution, which is to propose a hike in taxes uniquely for people in Scotland to put us at a competitive disadvantage in relation to the rest of the United Kingdom. We see Labour planning to reintroduce a 50 per cent top-rate of tax, but in Scotland only. How much will that money raise? Not even Kezia Dugdale seems to know the answer to that question. According to that August publication Holyrood magazine, she told the editor, Mandy Rhodes, that this would raise, and I quote, up to £100 million. But bluntly, Mandy, it could also raise zero. Maybe Jackie Baillie can tell us her leader doesn't seem to know. She does actually, and we were encouraged, as I hope you will be, by HMRC's comments about pursuing those high earners who might, through behavioural change, seek to pay their taxes elsewhere. The estimated haul from that rise would be £80 million to £100 million. I hope he will take that, but might I ask him whether he agrees with the Institute of Fiscal Studies comments about the national minimum wage? The key fact is that the increase in the minimum wage simply cannot provide full compensation for the majority of losses that will be experienced by tax credit recipients. This is just arithmetically impossible. I will give you a minute back. I suggest to Jackie Baillie that she reads the article in the Holyrood magazine that I referred to, where her leader said that she didn't know how much money would be raised. It just makes clear the level of Labour's economic literacy, proposing a measure that might well raise nothing to help pay for their spending commitments by their leader's own admission. There are only 14,000 higher-rate taxpayers in Scotland. Many of those 14,000 people operate businesses on a cross-border basis, and the impact of an additional 5 per cent hike in their tax will be enough to send a large proportion south of the border, leaving us, as Kezia Dugdale herself is prepared to admit, potentially with zero. It could actually be worse than that, because we could end up raising less money by losing all the revenue from the high earners if they relocate elsewhere. Once again, Labour is true to form, completely clueless when it comes to understanding taxation and how those issues should be approached. At least to give Labour credit, it is setting out its stall. They realise that this Parliament is at last getting new powers over tax and over welfare. They are setting out how they, as an old-style socialist party, will use those powers to hike taxes to increase public spending. I believe that they are fundamentally wrong in doing that. I believe that they will put Scotland at a serious competitive disadvantage, but at least they are making the case. We now need to hear from the SNP what they are going to do. Will they stand with the Labour Party in Scotland, hiking taxes, in the knowledge that that will reduce the tax take and leave public services in Scotland short-changed? Or will they stand with us in resisting any further tax rises, looking to create a more competitive Scotland which welcomes entrepreneurs and seeks to grow businesses and grow personal wealth? I listened carefully to what the cabinet secretary had to say. He used the words, I will consider carefully. He used the words, this needs urgent serious consideration. He cannot hide for much longer, Deputy Presiding Officer. Sooner or later, we will know the answers. We will know on which side they stand. I have pleasure in moving the amendment in my name. Many thanks. Do you now call on Willie Rennie to speak to and move amendment 14688.2? Point of order, James Kelly. Greetings, Deputy Presiding Officer. As to the competency of the SNP amendment, the section that states that there is currently no proposed power in the Scotland bill that would enable the Scottish Government to restore all tax credits. Given that, during his contribution, Mr Neil acknowledged that the bill would have the power to restore tax credits. Can I ask Deputy Presiding Officer? If this motion is still competent, the amendment is still competent to be considered at decision time tonight. Thank you, Mr Kelly. I will check that point and come back to the chamber. I now call on Willie Rennie to speak to and move amendment 14688.2. Six minutes, please, Mr Rennie. Deputy Presiding Officer, I move the amendment in my name. The Labour Party, I think, is to be congratulated for taking this initiative today. A real debate about powers this Parliament is going to have. A refreshing change, something I welcome, and I would have thought the SNP would welcome as well. What is disappointing is the SNP's response. A groundhog debate over powers. Faced with a choice of taking action to help low-paid workers or continuing their constitutional obsession, the SNP simply cannot help themselves. So much for accepting the result of the referendum. I am not, in the slightest bit, surprised that the SNP is not going to back up Labour today. I am just surprised that Labour is surprised. The SNP has got a track record on this kind of area. If you look back to the independent white paper, you will all remember that John Swinney's plans for the welfare budget in the first year of independence would match exactly the spending by Ian Duncan-Smith. Not one penny more. They spent years arguing, debating and condemning the Westminster Government for the £2.5 billion cut to the welfare spending. But yet, when it came to the fact, when it came to the opportunity, none of those people on those benches condemned John Swinney for not including that extra finance in the white paper. So we've got a track record. They often complain, but when it comes to the action, when they move away from the rhetoric, they refuse to act. I felt sorry for Alex Neil today. He's often sent out, I know, being felt sorry by a Liberal Democrat that must be painful for Alex Neil. But he's sent out to deliver stirring rhetoric to lambast the opposition, to pump up the ever-loyal backbenchers. But in the most confused and contradictory speech I've heard from Alex Neil is the one that I heard today. He started off his contribution today by saying, we do not have the powers and I demand this chamber has the powers so we can make that decision. By the end of the speech, he had conceded we had the powers after all and that he might actually take action. The most confused and contradictory contribution from a man who I hold in very high regard. But we should not forget that we are here today because of my former colleagues in the previous coalition in the Conservative Party. These ideologically driven cuts will directly affect 250,000 Scottish families and 300,000 children. Alex Neil is right about the financial impact that all have on those families. 1,000 pounds plus with an MSP's salary probably we can cope with. But for a family living on the bread line, find it really difficult to make ends meet, that is a lifeline and that is something that I deeply regret that the Conservatives continue to argue for because despite the warm words from the leader of the Scottish Conservatives, the words of their amendment today wed them completely to the tax credit cuts. Actually, Murdo Fraser finished off his contribution by refusing to even consider making up the difference on the tax credits when we have the powers here. He's not prepared to make the difference when we have the power, not just now, when we have the power right here and right now. So we know where the Conservatives stand. In fact, they sent Annabelle Goldie down to the House of Lords to vote for the tax credit cuts. David Mundell voted for them, a member of the cabinet voted for them in the House of Commons and today the Conservative MSPs are going to vote for the tax credit cuts as well. We just heard it from Murdo Fraser. Look, we spent many years in the coalition cutting taxes for those who unload their incomes. The incentive was to make work pay so that people would be incentivised into work. We didn't do all that work over five years for the Conservatives to undo that work in just one year, with a £1,000-plus cut to people on low incomes. That is not something that we wanted to see, and I think that it's something that many people will condemn them for. I want to move towards a low taxation, high wages and, in the meantime, tax credit regime to support families in need. Despite the rhetoric, we know exactly where the Conservatives stand today. Who would have believed that the House of Lords, the age-old institution, the unelected institution that I wanted to get rid of, would be more representative of the British people than the newly elected Government? Who would have believed that that would ever have happened? The new champions for working people are in the House of Lords, not within the Conservative Party. That shows you what a toxic, turvy world we now live in. I can say completely that we will be voting against the SNP amendment today. That is easy, because we have the powers, and if we choose, we should be able to act on it to help working people. I urge the Conservatives, if they have any influence over the Cabinet at Westminster and so far, they have shown that they have no influence. If they have any influence over the Conservative Cabinet, they should be sending the message out from today that the tax credit cuts should be reversed. That is the priority, that is the message, that is what we need to change. Thank you very much. Many thanks. We now turn to the open debate. I'm afraid that some time has been lost this afternoon with points of order and other issues. Speeches of six minutes and members must keep to their six minutes. I call Mark McDonald to be followed by Malcolm Chisholm. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I think that what we have to distinguish, I think, is between principle and practicality. I don't think that the principle of supporting and assisting the most vulnerable in our society is at question here. I think that we have seen the Scottish Government take steps in those directions. The question has always been about practicality and effect. The amendment that is being laid today and prior to today, I don't think that anybody had had any sight of that amendment, although perhaps others did, will perhaps give the ability to do what the Labour Party is suggesting. The spice paper, which Jackie Baillie quotes, contains two important caveats. The first caveat is, first of all, states if tax credits are accepted as a benefit. At the moment, tax credits are administered through HMRC, not DWP, so there would need to be a discussion had around whether those would then be able to be classified as a benefit within the terms of the devolution settlement. If the amendment that is put forward today allows for that to happen, we can take that as read. The second important caveat, and I think that this is a very critical one, is that top-up of benefit is only possible where benefit is being received. In the changes that are being proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, a significant number of people will lose all entitlement to tax credits. They will not receive any tax credit whatsoever. The question mark there is whether you could use a top-up power, or you could not use a top-up power to top up a non-existent benefit. The question there arises, how then do you administer a system that enables those people who do not receive tax credits as a result of a change in 2016 to subsequently receive them? Given that the powers that are being proposed in the Scotland bill are at the very earliest going to come into play in 2017, possibly 2018, possibly later, depending on the technicalities of disaggregating some of the functions, particularly in areas of shared competence, that leaves a significant gap in terms of time for those families, those individuals who are going to lose out. I think that the cabinet secretary is entirely correct when he says that the important thing here is to look very carefully at the detail and then look at the possibilities that arise as a result of that. First of all, we do not yet know the final picture. We do not yet know finally what the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to propose. He has been given a bloody nose by the House of Lords, and I am no fan of the House of Lords, but I welcome the decision that they took. It does not make me think any less that the place should be abolished because it is a democratic and constitutional anachronism, but a stopped clock is right at least twice a day, so there is no reason why the House of Lords cannot occasionally get a decision right either. He has been sent home to think again by the House of Lords, but I could just articulate this point and then I will come back to the member. He has been sent home to think again. The question is then what comes back and what I want to ensure and what we as a party are trying to ensure is that all guns are blazing in terms of trying to make sure that that decision is reversed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and that we can convince enough rebels to back the opposition on that. What I would hope very clearly for is that the Labour Party will be absolutely 100 per cent opposing that in Westminster alongside the SNP and hopefully attracting rebels in order to ensure that we do not have to look further at this matter, so that we can continue to do that. I will take from what the member is saying is that there is now an issue of timing. Of course, on this side, we want to do everything that we can to stop these cuts going through, but would it not be reasonable to ask the Scottish Government with all the power that it has, all the support that it has to interrogate every option open to them in order to protect people rather than spending the last few days explaining to everybody how they cannot do anything to support these families? The cabinet secretary stated quite clearly in his speech that that is exactly what the Government is doing and what the Government will do is to look at what it can do and how it can deliver support for the most vulnerable. The next point is around the vehicle for delivery. The vehicle for delivery is important. In order to offset the bedroom tax, we were able to use discretionary housing payments. It required permissions in terms of the lifting of the cap in order for it to be able to be done, and that required negotiation with Westminster. In terms of council tax benefit, of course, we had to create a mechanism to ensure that the 10 per cent reduction could be replaced in order to fully fund council tax reduction with the monies that were given to us. Again, there had to be some creative thinking applied in order to enable that to happen. We took evidence at the finance committee last week from HMRC around the Scottish rate of income tax. What HMRC said was that if the Scottish rate of income tax was differently as opposed to a UK level, it would more than double the administration costs that the HMRC would incur. If we are to be looking at the possibility of establishing a different approach in Scotland, given that the current cost per transaction in terms of tax credits, as opposed to a global administrative sum that is for the Scottish rate of income tax, that begs a question of where the administration costs for that will fall and whether those are factored into the calculations that were laid out by Jackie Baillie. Nobody here shies away from or doesn't recognise the reality of the impact on the vulnerable in society. Our record, whether it's on the establishment of the welfare fund, whether it's on council tax reduction, whether it's on the discretionary housing payments, shows that where we can, we do take action to support those vulnerable in society. Devolution is supposed to be about our priorities and setting our own policy agenda. It shouldn't be about a case of continually being handed a pig's ear by Westminster and being expected on limited resources to fashion it into a silk purse. Thank you very much. I now call Malcolm Chisholm to be followed by Clare Adamson. I'll misspeach dispelling Tory myths about tax credits and the second part exposing SNP myths about why nothing can be done. Tax credits are one of the great achievements of the last Labour Government, a substantial reform that the IFS said in 2003, the distributional impact of which, and I quote from 2003, is fully in keeping with that of past Labour reforms with the largest gains going to the poorest families. Of course, the tragic fact of the matter is that the families with the highest losses as a proportion of income now are precisely those poorest families as the threshold for reductions plunges from £6,420 to £3,850, and the taper increases from 41 to 48 per cent. That applies to child tax credits as well as the threshold and the taper completely against what David Cameron promised during the general election campaign. 43 per cent, and we should all reflect on that fact, 43 per cent of in-work recipients of tax credits are in households that earn less than £10,000 a year, and they will lose, on average, more than £1,000. What are appallingly regressive cuts? The rising of the income tax threshold that Murdo Fraser mentioned is irrelevant to those families that are nowhere near the income tax threshold, but reflect also on the national living wage, which is always invoked by the Conservatives and others in this context. Even under the better-case scenario, the Institute of Fiscal Studies, I am quoting again, would result in £140 extra a year of setting crucially Institute of Fiscal Studies 11 per cent of the tax credit losses. That is well... I give way to Lesmond. I thank the member for giving way. Would he agree with Alistair Darling when he says that the Labour policy on tax credit expanded to such an extent that it put intense pressure on public spending and therefore had a detrimental effect on economic growth? The fact of the matter is that there are less people on tax credits now than there were under the Labour Government. I accept that, but Murdo Fraser should have acknowledged that. At this moment of time before the cuts, less than 50 per cent of working families are on tax credits. In a kind of way, I think, we have already moved on from Alistair Darling's quote from a few years ago. The Great Torsten Bell of the Resolution Foundation sums that up perfectly when he says, tax cuts and the living wage cannot compensate for these tax credit changes. They are not an option. The answer to tax credits is tax credits. Of course, we also have the massive work disincentive in the changes that withdrawal rate of £80 for any extra money earned and, in fact, £93 if you are on housing benefit. What are we to do if there is no change from the UK Government? Judith Paterson of the Child Poverty Action at the Devolution More Powers Committee two or three weeks ago said this. The question to be asked is what will happen if Scotland does not use the power to top up tax credit. It has been forecast that if it does not do that, many more children and families will fall into poverty over the next few years, which would have associated impacts on children's health, education and prospects. As we all know, although some of us forget, not me personally, politics is about choices. We today are making it clear that we are making a different choice from the SNP, certainly in relation to tax on APD, and a different choice from the Conservatives in relation to the higher-rate tax threshold that may be a different choice from the SNP. They haven't told us. I give way. I recognise what he says about choices, but in coming to that decision, did Labour take into account the administration costs that the DWP will charge, because, as you will know, being in the Further Devolution Committee, they are entitled to do that in the bill. If so, what did you estimate? Costings are in excess of what is required in order to restore the tax credits. We have made a choice, and we will always make choices that lead to improvements for working families and a more equal society. We should remember that that choice involves no extra tax increases. It just means a different choice from other parties about tax reduction. The motion from the SNP Government says that it can't be done wrong. The motion from the SNP Government says that the money has already been earmarked for education wrong. The SNP motion is all over the place today. It then goes on to say that more powers are required hiding behind the constitution, as usual, but those changes can't be done with the powers that we are going to get. If Alec Neill didn't know yesterday when he put forward the amendment that those powers were coming to Scotland, he should have done that, because we certainly knew. The SNP is thrashing about looking for excuses not to do what is self-evidently just, fair, achievable and necessary. Trying to be all things to all people, which is the SNP's way, may be a good strategy for trying to build up support in a referendum. I'll take an intervention. I thank the member for taking an intervention. Can I ask him, as things stand, those tax credit cuts would take effect next April, but we don't get the income tax powers until at least the following year, or the APD powers until the year after that. So what is the start date for implementation of your proposals? It's interesting that the Government is thinking up new arguments, which it obviously hadn't thought about in its motion today. My last word, they may think that it's a good strategy for building up support for a referendum being all things to all people, but it's a useless strategy for creating a more fairer and more equal society. For some of us, that is the purpose of politics. Clare Adamson, to be followed by Stuart McMillan. Up to six minutes, please. Mr Fraser, earlier in the debate today talked about zombie figures, but I'm afraid we are here today and are discussing this issue purely because of the outdated dinosaur politics of the Tory party and a discredited zombie ideology that fails to learn the lessons of the global financial crisis and continues to wage war on the poor in case inequality and in so doing damages the economy that they claim to care so much about. Mr Fraser doesn't need to take my word for it, perhaps he'll take the words of standards and poors in 2014. They warned that the growing income inequality in the United States was slowing growth in the world's biggest economy. Aside from extreme economic swings such as income imbalances that tend to dampen social mobility and produce less educated workforce that can't compete in global economies, it diminishes future income prospects and potential long-term growth and it becomes entrenched as political repercussions extend the problem. When we make families less or more unequal in our society then we increase borrowing and we go back to the very problems that caused the global financial downturn in the first place. When incomes keep following and borrowings are kept at the same rates eventually households run into brick walls and that's where the Conservative Party are taking the poorest people in our society. In lowering and attacking low-income families they are putting more people into poverty and in so doing damaging the future of this country. Why does it matter? Sorry, I think that we are pressed for time. Unequal societies are less functionally capable they are less socially cohesive they are less economically sound and they perform worse than the more equal countries in our society. This is probably the most pressing growing global economic crisis that we are facing is growing inequality and yet the Tory party failed to realise what their policies are doing in this area. Over half a million children in this country rely on tax credits to make ends meet. 350,000 of those children will feel the impact of the Tory cuts as they strip away much needed tax credits from over 200,000 low-income working families. The figures in SPICE show that 197,200 families in Scotland with a total of 346,000 children have been hit by these changes from the Tory party. We have to do something about this. I wonder what people who are scared about what's going to happen to their futures will think watching this debate this afternoon because there should be more that joins us on this and divides us. We shouldn't be arguing about semantics. We shouldn't be arguing about the principles because we are on the same page on this. The difference is that, unlike Labour, this Government will not write a blank check. It will look for a costed and practical way to tackle the policies of this Tory Government. No, I'm not taking an intervention. I'm sorry. That decision and who to trust in this issue will lie with the voters. It will come down to who they trust to deliver a commitment to do as much as they can to stop the Tory ideology and create a new system in Scotland. Labour seemed to have been more content on grabbing a headline in this than actually looking at what will be a reasonable and costed manifesto for the people of Scotland. I would say to Labour that they should think very hard on this because people do not have short memories. They forget that in Labour manifestos and promises in the past, they promise things in their manifestos and within weeks, like in the council tax fees, are then saying that it's a wrong decision to have carried forward. Let's not forget also that for many of these families who were already impacted by the abolition of the tempi tax rate, which hit part-time low-income families and they will not forget that that was Labour's record in delivery, unlike this Government. What this Government has done is committed £90 million since the introduction of the bedroom tax to fully mitigate that impact to helping over 70,000 people in Scotland. With the councils, they've committed over £40 million helping over half a million people in Scotland to receiving council tax benefit and protected them from the UK Government's cuts. They've provided over £1 million to help combat food poverty in Scotland through the emergency food action plan and an extra £9.2 million of the Scottish welfare fund giving a total of £33 million each for the three years of 2013 and 2016. That is a matter of trust and I think that the people of Scotland are going to trust this Government who have a track record of standing up for the poor, for the vulnerable and delivering on policies that, unlike the Tories, seek to level our country, reduce inequality. As I have said, inequality is the most pressing issue of our times and I'm very, very glad to stand behind a costed, a very, very welcome plan from this Government to do everything that it can to reduce inequality in the future. Thank you very much. I now call on Stuart McMillan to be followed by Hugh Henry. Up to six minutes, please. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Just before I start, I'm sure that Malcolm Chisholm on my moment ago in his comments he touched upon the fact that the powers that we are going to get to actually deal with this particular situation but I'm sure that Jackie Baillie spoke about the powers that we already have, which, I think, I'll come back to Malcolm Chisholm's point, highlights once again that Labour is all over the place in this particular situation. Presiding Officer, education represents an investment not just in our children but also in our culture, society and also our economy. Quality education helps young people to be successful learners and grow into confident individuals, responsible citizens and effective contributors to society. A highly skilled population leads to higher wages, better jobs and economic growth and benefits the health and wellbeing of each of us. Yet, a child in poverty is a child that has yet one more barrier to learning. A child whose home life is chaotic or hungry cannot do their best and a child who worries about the future of their family is a child who is distracted from fulfilling the potential. Amendment. For that child, why would you prioritise a cut in a passenger duty of £250 million? Do you think that that was the right choice and how much interrogation of the possibilities of that tax were going through the Scottish Government before they made that decision since they can't do one-to-tax credits? Stuart McMillan. Thank you very much for the intervention. I will reiterate a point that I mentioned in this chamber yesterday. I have heard members from the Labour Party speak in this Parliament about the issue of APDE. Not because it's a bad thing but because it threatens the airports in the north of England. I think that that's more of an issue that the Labour Party has got to address as compared to anybody else in this side of the house. The main tools for tackling poverty and for tackling the attainment gap lay in the tax and benefits system and also the employment services. All need to play their part that delivers for children. It allows parents to work and boosts family income. Unfortunately, the tax and benefits powers are under the control of Westminster and under the Scotland bill as it stands. The Scottish Parliament cannot restore all tax credits and does not have the power to reimburse all those who will be affected. The UK Government is not using those tools to tackle poverty or promote work in Scotland but unfortunately to cut welfare. Those Tory tax credit cuts will lead to immediate £1500 taken from the pockets of 250,000 Scottish working households next April and across Scotland. The number of children affected will be almost 350,000. That's five and a half thousand children in that one area alone. For anyone who hasn't grasped the scale of those cuts yet, those figures should help them to see how many families in Scotland are being hit and how many children are going to be affected. It's time for those powers to be transferred to Scotland allowing us to take real action to tackle poverty, support working families and to give our children all the support that they need rather than continuing on the UK Government's course which will push even more children into poverty. The SNP today have lodged amendments in Westminster to devolve to the Scottish Parliament. The amendment to the Scotland Bill that the Cabinet Secretary highlighted in his opening comments will enable the Scottish Parliament to set its own tax credit system including eligibility, thresholds and tapers allowing the Scottish Government to determine the level of tax credits in Scotland and to protect households from Tory tax credit cuts. Pollywood should send a united message to George Osborne that those cuts are completely unacceptable and that Labour, the SNP, voted against those proposals at every possible opportunity and we will continue to do so. Will any member of the chamber spoke of the House of Lords and unfortunately with the fatal motion that was down on House of Lords Labour sat in their hands. The SNP Government have already mitigated some of the worst aspects of the UK Government's welfare cuts and we are already spending £296 million over three years to mitigate the effects of the UK Government's welfare cuts. So, too, will the Scottish Government set out clear, credible and costed plans to support low-income households following the comprehensive spending review and also with the outcome of the amendments that have been laid to the Scotland Bill. I mean, who knows what's going to happen regarding these amendments but certainly one thing is clear that this Scottish Government is the one that is credible and it's also competent, something that the Labour Party clearly know very little about. The SNP is standing up for Scotland and Government here in this Scottish Parliament and also we are the only ones who are providing an effective opposition to the Tories at Westminster. We will continue to fight austerity, oppose trident and aim to ensure that George Osborne's tax credit cuts are stopped in their tracks and for as long as the powers over working-age benefits remain in the control and in the hands of the likes of Ian, Duncan Smith, Scottish families and children will bear the brunt. We will continue to fight these cuts and demand that the Tories protect the poorest from the worst impacts. The principal aim of providing support for families is to give children the best start in life and the greatest chance to succeed as they grow and develop into adulthood and it's essential to maintain the highest quality provision in order to support child wellbeing and development alongside providing significant support to families and sustainable employment opportunities. That's why I backed the amendment in the name of the cabinet secretary. Thank you very much. Let's now call on Hugh Henry to be followed by Joan McAlpine tight for time up to six minutes, please. Thank you, Presiding Officer. More of the phasor took some delight in trying to point out differences of opinion within other parties on a range of issues. But actually on this particular topic, tax credits and the impact that it will have on working families, there's actually quite a significant difference that would appear within Murdo Fraser's own party, because I don't know whether Ruth Davidson represents the caring weekend face of conservatism when she says that she is concerned about the impact that tax credits will cut. Whereas Murdo Fraser maybe represents the real face of the Conservative Party and being cheerleaders for tax credit cuts and what impact they will have on families right across the country. And there's a number of different issues at stake here. The first issue is tax credit cuts themselves and what they will do. Now, there cannot be any doubt whatsoever that there are hundreds of thousands of families throughout the United Kingdom, including here in Scotland, who are profoundly worried about what is going to happen to them. I had the pleasure recently to meet Mark Payne from Port Glasgow. A nuzdol member, a nuzdol has been a trade union, which has been at the forefront of campaigning about the impact of tax credits on its members and ordinary families. Mark and his partner Agnes live in Port Glasgow. They have three children. They are a family who believe in the ethos of hard work, both Mark and Agnes' work. But they are also a family which stands to lose £2,100 per year because of the changes to tax credit cuts. Mark works full-time as a supermarket delivery driver and Agnes works part-time in the retail trade as well. Mark told me that Agnes and I worked two jobs for more than 60 hours per week. We have no time with the kids, we have no food in the fridge by the end of the week. Agnes and I have to skip meals to make sure that the kids eat. When I raised Mark's case with Priti Patel when she came here to meet with members of the Conservative Party she agreed to meet with Mark and I hope that she will listen and I hope that she will reflect on what Mark has to say because I do accept that there are members of the Conservative Party at Westminster who have begun to realise the inhumane impact that these tax credit cuts will have. Unfortunately and tragically Mark is not alone. People like Mark and it's not just hard-working families. Amanda Batten, the chief executive of the charity, Contact a Family said, these cuts will affect a staggering 150,000 hard-working families with disabled children whose finances are already at breaking point. That's the reality of what we are confronting. Now I will take help and support from anybody who will help to stop these cuts taking place. That's why I welcomed the decision in the House of Lords and a body that has to be reformed and Labour is on record saying that we will reform that from top to bottom but what also struck me wasn't just the decision in the House of Lords the quality of the debate in the House of Lords would actually put this chamber in the House of Commons to shame because we have heard some fantastic contributions from people reflecting on what is happening in ordinary families across the country. To their credit they forced the Westminster Government to stop and think again and I hope that that Westminster Government will stop and think again. Now I agree with Aliq Neil. The solution to this is for Westminster to come to its senses and accept that what is being proposed is frankly unacceptable and also cruel in the extreme. But I also do think that we have a responsibility to say that if we cannot win the argument there then we will look at our power and our budgets to do something. Now before this afternoon it was all about whether or not the Labour amendment would have been competent and could have been put into effect. Now what Aliq Neil tells is that there's an amendment being lodged today in the House of Commons. I don't know whether he's talking about the SNP amendment or the Government amendment. He seems to indicate that it's that. Well, we have a problem. If that amendment was lodged before the debate today then we are being asked to vote on an amendment here this afternoon. There is outdated there is no longer competent and is frankly misleading because we have been asked to vote for something that says that we have no power when in fact the minister has indicated that we do have or we will have the power or take. In your last 20 seconds Mr Henry. Although that may be a point of order for Mr Neil. What has been lodged in the House of Commons today is a proposed amendment. As things stand the bill does not give us the powers that would be required to carry out the Labour proposal. If that amendment table today is carried then it would do. So we're not out of order. Many thanks for that. I'll treat that as a point of information. Mr Henry if you would like to close now please in the next 30 seconds. The amendment says currently there is no proposed power in the Scotland Bill and there clearly is. I think that we should work together. I think that the cabinet secretary should reflect on where they are. To be honest this should not be about point scoring, about who's right and who's wrong. If that power is there then I think that we should grab it with both hands and we should actually reflect. We will look up if we are voting in something that is now outdated for another day perhaps something that will actually protect hardworking families for another day. Thank you meantime. I now call on Joan McAlpine to be followed by Cara Hylton. Thank you I'd like to open today by welcoming the cabinet secretary's assurances that we will when the time comes take measures to help the families that are affected by tax cuts. I have great confidence that he will do that because I judge the Scottish Government by the record and the Scottish Government spending £300 million already mitigating the damaging effects of UK Government welfare reforms and we don't have to just go by the Scottish Government's figures on that. There was evidence presented in March this year to the welfare committee of this Parliament evidence commissioned by the committee Sheffield Hallam University on the cumulative impact of welfare reforms to that date. That didn't include the budget shock announcement about the tax credits but it did include the £350 million of previous tax credit cuts that were brought in by the Tories and their coalition partners. The Sheffield Hallam research showed in March that the cumulative effect in Scotland of all welfare changes announced was £1.5 billion and it broke it down into an average of £440 per head for every adult of working age in Scotland whether or not they claimed benefits. This is an important point because Professor Steve Fothergill who conducted the research pointed out that the per capita cost to Scotland of these welfare cuts was just below the GB average of £450 but it was much less than other areas including even London which loses 490 ahead in the north west of England 530 and Wales 520. The researchers' explanation of that is worth quoting. The researchers said that it should not escape note however that the impact in Scotland would have been around £35 a year per head higher for every adult of working age if the Scottish Government had not struck a deal with local authorities to avoid passing on the cut in council tax benefit or put in place arrangements to defray the impact of the bedroom tax. It goes on that the financial burden of these welfare reforms is being borne by the public sector budgets in Scotland rather than benefit claimants so a very clear acknowledgement there from an independent source that the Scottish Government measures to mitigate cuts are working but also an acknowledgement that comes at a cost to other public sector budgets in Scotland, budgets for health budgets for education general local authority budgets that every week Labour come to this chamber demanding more be spent on even though revenue budgets have been cut by 10 per cent by the Tory Government and capital budgets have been cut by 25 per cent. While I have confidence that this Government will as they have done in the past continue to do the right thing by the poorest in society and recognise that this comes at a cost to existing public sector budgets and will continue to do so the cabinet secretary has pointed out Labour's black hole the tax powers will not kick in to one and two years after the cuts to tax credits and not a single Labour speaker who has been challenged has been able to answer that question about the black hole. Even at that the Scotland bill gives us limited powers over tax and welfare. 70 per cent of tax and 85 per cent of welfare will remain with Westminster. The vast part of Scotland's budget will continue to be determined by the UK Government that we didn't vote for and which has very different priorities from this UK Government that is cutting welfare by 12 billion while cheerily committing to an additional 167 billion for weapons of mass destruction or cheerily by our front bench or Jackie Baillie only yesterday. Let's never forget that these cuts are coming from that same Tory Government and it's absolutely vital that we don't let them off the hook. It's vital that we speak with one voice on tax credits as we spoke with one voice yesterday on Trident Renewal. George Osborne has been on the ropes over tax credits so please don't let them bounce back by trying to blame tax credits on the SNP or saying that it's okay because Scotland can find the money somehow to sort it out and it's not a big deal. It's a very big deal for the families that are affected and we mustn't let George Osborne off the ropes. We need to talk all time on his cruel tax credit cuts and that needs to be done in London. I began by quoting the track record of this Government in clearing up Westminster's mess as well as resources. Those measures require expertise at devising solutions that work within our increasingly complex devolved settlement. We mitigate these benefits. It's difficult as we have seen but it requires a careful look at what we can do within the powers that are being devolved to us in which are going to get increasingly complicated with the piecemeal devolution of some benefits and no others. If I had time, I would quote more of the expert evidence to the welfare committee on the difficulties that this piecemeal devolution will bring and the real hardship it will cause particularly the failure to devolve universal credit which would make mitigating these tax credit cuts so much easier. I cannot understand for the life of me why anyone in the other Benchants listening to some of that evidence on welfare reforms could vote against devolving universal credit in its entirety. That's why I take with a pinch of salt some of the pronouncements that have been made on the other benches and I would say to them, it's not too late. There will be amendments put down to the Scotland bill and we can still devolve universal credit and indeed power over sanctions which is another question altogether but it's just harming the poorest in our society. The Tory austerity agenda is penalising the poor and vulnerable and having a devastating effect in our communities right across Scotland. Over the past five years we've seen benefits and tax credits changed and cut, hit hard and work in families and the poor hard but at the same time we've seen taxis cut for the rich and a blind eye turned to tax evasion by individuals and companies and now despite promising during the general election to protect tax credits the Tories are at it again. In their election manifesto the Tories promised to improve the lives of the millions who work hard, raise their families care for those who need help and who do the right thing but the changes that the Tories want to make to our tax credit system fly in the face of those very aspirations I guess the lesson there is never trust a Tory. The Tories plans to cut tax credits will leave around 4,600 families in my Dumfremont constituency an average of 1,300 a year worse off that's more than £100 a month and across Scotland more than 250,000 working families will be affected across the UK that figure reaches 3 million 3 million working families the vast majority of children families who are already struggling to get by from week to week who will have less money in the pockets than they do right now. There are some examples of those affected the nursery nurse who will lose £1,788 a year the hospital porter who will lose £2,011 a year the care worker £1,906 a year worse off and while those low-paid families are being made to pay the price of austerity the Tory governments have made their priorities clear pledging £2.6 billion to help the rich by cutting inheritance tax handing £7.25 billion to big business to cut incorporation tax and increasing the take-home earnings of those already comfortable by increasing the threshold for the top rate of tax benefiting the rich most. Last week in Westminster Labour lords won a vote to stop the Tory plans going ahead unless protections are brought in for the most vulnerable but while the UK government suffered a setback the Tories are still refusing to say that they'll change their plans Presiding Officer we've heard many statistics but I want to talk about the actual impact shop workers union Osdaw have been contacting their members to find it more about how they'll be affected by the tax credit cuts many are already worse off due to previous cuts to tax credits and on household incomes of between £7,000 and £27,000 a year these are families that are struggling with rising housing costs, heating bills and food prices in retail where evening and weekend work is the norm mums and dads already spent struggling to spend enough quality time with their children faced with further cuts and forced them to stay in work at all imagine the outrage if the government proposed a £97 tax rate for millionaires yet for families in receipt of housing benefit the increase in the clawback that's been proposed by the Tories means that those families will lose £97 of every pound they earn making it simply impossible to make up for the cuts or to work their way out of poverty as some Tories suggest only a Tory would think the solution is to work more hours not more income and for us all we're members working in retail the reality is that there's little opportunity to increase their hours at all in fact many fear there's a real risk of employers cutting their hours to make up for the increase in the minimum wage and many worry about being replaced by younger workers that will cost their employers less so what impact will the tax credit cut have Hugh Henry mentioned one example and I'll mention another example an Osdo member called David who could lose £2,000 a year and that the tax credit changes will massively affect his family he said that they're already worrying about how to pay their bills and how to keep their car running to quote David the government is disgusting for taking those tax credits away from people like myself who work hard and have never been employed since they left school we're the people who are keeping the economy going and I'll quote again Yvonne from Airdrie who will lose £1,870 a year she says we struggle financially food shopping is a big part of our monthly budget anything over and above is nonexistent this will just make simply things worse tax credits are an absolute lifeline for these families they're at the difference between keeping their heads above water and going under these are just two examples which highlight how the Tory tax credit cuts could hit almost a quarter of a million hardworking families right across Scotland unless we act so no time Scottish Labour will fight these Tory cuts to tax credits we want to protect every family in the UK from these vicious cuts but should the Tories get their way we must have a plan B Scottish Labour have pledged to protect Scottish families from a Tory austerity and we will should the Tories go ahead and implement these cuts it's only right that we should use the powers of the Scottish Parliament to protect hard-pressed families in Scotland we can choose to let more children grow up in poverty or we can choose to do things differently we will always put those in middling lower incomes first we will never put millionaires before ordinary working people and expect them to pay the price our plans will ensure that working families are protected and that no-one in Scotland will pay more tax than they do today as a result of this commitment Jackie Baillie has said today that today is a defining moment for Hollywood and she is right today is time to get our priorities right when children in my constituency are going to school hungry when families I represent are struggling to afford a food shop I know what my priority is is protecting the incomes of working families not reducing the cost of business class flights Presiding Officer, with the new powers agreed for Hollywood we've got the opportunity to act to ensure that every Scot has got a decent standard of living to act to ensure that income and wealth is distributed more fairly to act to end the cycle of poverty which destroys people's life chances the new powers have been confirmed it's time for the SNP to stop the engine and to start standing up for working people Scottish Labour will use the new powers the question is will the SNP and the Tories do the same the 4,600 families in my constituency who are going to be affected by these cuts to tax credits deserve to know is the SNP on their side Many thanks Can I now call on George Adam to be followed by Christina McKelvie up to six minutes please Thank you, Presiding Officer I'm only too pleased to take part in this debate as it is an issue that shall affect many of my constituents and I will try to represent them in the best of my abilities and how we deal with the on-going attacks from the Westminster Tory Government is going to continue to be one of our major debates within this chamber Presiding Officer, when I said the savage Tory cuts and tax credits will affect many families in Renfrewshire I wasn't exaggerating a recent briefing from children's charity Barnardo's calculated that 10,500 families in Renfrewshire would have to deal with this situation 10,500 families half of all families in Renfrewshire who are dependent families who currently use this money to buy food, clothes and other essentials so that's more than 17,000 children in Renfrewshire who will be affected by this callous cut and all this on the back of the so-called Tory Westminster reforms where more and more of our constituents friends and members of our communities will continue to suffer on their watch The Scottish Government has and will continue to mitigate against these on-going Westminster attacks but it's not as simple as the Labour Party are saying it's not just about tax credit it's about welfare reform in general it's about the on-going attack to the vulnerable within our society that's what this whole debate is about and that's what the Scottish Government is looking at it from a holistic view on how we deal with these issues and it may be easy for the Labour Party to cart from the sidelines as they do not have to actually deliver for the people of Scotland but the Scottish Government knows they have a record and will continue to deliver for our people but I have no doubt that many Labour members have in their heart of hearts they want to make a difference for their constituents but it appears they have lost touch with what's happening in the real world in the parliamentary bubble when we should be going out there and actually dealing with the issues that affect our constituents the Scottish Government has and continues to deliver for our people and who are the public going to believe are they going to believe a Scottish Government who has already done that or a discredited Labour Party even Labour Party members of high standing are doubting the current policy positions of Labour Party Tom Harris recently said really he also said Labour has jumped to shark I give up, that's it for me giving up, goodbye now you're probably asking the question that I asked at the time is what exactly does jumping the shark mean well it's a theatrical term it's a term for a TV or movie series that has gone on too long and has actually lost any creative input and has no further to go and it creates a storyline on the top so unbelievable that they can no longer be taken seriously this sounds very very similar to the Labour Party's current situation you know what I have to carry on at the moment you know the actual situation we're talking about was when in happy days Arthur Fonzarelli water skied over a shark now I know the Labour Party believes they can do many things but I don't believe they can actually keep any credibility to be relevant to this debate yesterday they were being evangelical about scrapping trident or some of them were being evangelical about scrapping trident others weren't today it's a cynical attempt to talk about tax credits this is real people's lives and real people's issues that we are dealing with and Labour should shop looking towards I'm looking towards Scotland's future Labour should join me in doing that and not looking towards tomorrow's lines and talking about newspaper headlines Gerry Marra thank the member for giving way if I can be allowed to bring the member back to the point of this debate this afternoon is he in favour of our proposals to reinstate the tax credits for working people in his constituency George Adam I'm actually in favour of making sure that we have a policy that can actually make sure that people of Scotland have the ability to live their life to the full that's what's important to me Ms Marra not sitting here pontificating and making noise when we could actually doing the job that the Scottish Government currently is so that is the reason that we have Labour with absolutely no credibility they've already stated that they would spend the proposed cut in APD on education no matter how many times Jackie Baillie says he didn't they already did say they would actually do that which is their right and a fair point for them to make if they want to do that because education is an example of being able to bridge the gap in the attainment as a way to bring people out of poverty but they've already said it but now they've changed their mind the other thing that's already been said the extra powers are coming in 2017 APD will not happen until 2018 so what's going to happen to these 250,000 families in Scotland in the here now how are they going to deal on Labour's kind words this is about the real world in dealing with the actual issues that are here in front of us not just playing some kind of political game and debate within the chamber Presiding Officer, these on-going Westminster attacks are attacks on the weakest in our society not just families with tax credits but others in benefits we have pipped disability, long-term conditions Christina McKelvey had a member's debate last week which I spoke on and we actually discussed these people who are struggling to get by with this so for me it's who do you trust Presiding Officer do you trust the Scottish Government with an on-going record that is actually supported to people of Scotland or do you believe or trust a bunch of chancellers from the Labour Party many thanks now call on Christina McKelvey to be followed by Neil Bibby thank you very much on the topic of today's debate Jackie Baillie talks about value but she would rather spend £160 billion on bombs instead of burns so on the topic of today's debate that's Jackie's way of supporting Scotland's children Presiding Officer Scotland only gets back about 70 per cent of the extra money we sent to London the other 30 per cent is kept by Westminster she's usually spent on things we didn't ask for things we didn't want like nuclear bombs the Barnett formula grants Scotland around £30 billion and that's only worth about £28.8 billion when inflation is taking into account and we have no idea what cut by the Chancellor when he hits us at the end of the month the cost to the UK Government's commitment to austerity are increasingly borne by the most vulnerable with cuts to welfare benefits not just tax credits, all welfare benefits that would cost our economy at least up until now £4.5 billion but then last year it just got worse with the Tories majority came another phalange of cuts £30 billion in all and I remember heartily backed by Labour MPs trooping through the same corridors who are now telling us to mitigate their decision to troop through those corridors we have little idea what David Mundell's latest proposed amendment does but we know what our amendments do we can't ignore the reality that Scotland is not getting any extra money in fact a condition of the Smith commission is neither side would gain nor lose funds so what can we do recalculate budget headings and yes we did do that to mitigate the bedroom tax but we cannot keep mitigating Westminster policy decisions on welfare without having the balance and powers of finance and revenue raising it is ultimately only with full power and full decision making powers that the Scottish Government will be able to access all of Scotland's resources that are more prosperous and fairer Scotland including a social security system that works for our people and unless Labour are like a revert to tight and go to let the Tories off the hook at Westminster for an SNP bad story today with that reality now straight in everyone's mind let's see what we could do to mitigate tax credit cuts Kezia Dugdale says Labour will use new welfare powers in the Scottish bill we aren't altogether sure what those will be and the UK Government has just put another 20 amendments or so ahead of us the latest just at lunch time today and Malcolm Chisholm told us that he knew about it last night is that that pooling and sharing resources and information that we heard about from better together because if he heard about it last night then there was a straight disrespect to this Scottish Government and the Labour Party site clause 21 discretionary payments would only allow us competence to introduce discretionary top-up payments to people in Scotland who are already entitled to a reserved benefit and we've already heard what Spice told us today that that just can't happen but that does not let us restore or support people sanctioned it doesn't allow us to restore benefits lost to some 80,000 families or support people who have been sanctioned the SNP has now lodged amendments at Westminster to devolve full working and child child tax credits if agreed this would allow us complete devolution over tax credits can Labour tell me today that their MPs are going to support that amendment because if they can't then it's only empty rhetoric colleagues here have made clear their support and the Cabinet Secretary has also reiterated the disastrous losses that are going to hit low income households and can I congratulate Kara Hilton because she's not here I wanted to intervene on her to congratulate her because it was a fantastic speech until the last 30 minutes when she reverted to SNP bad I agreed with everything she had to say this Cabinet Secretary has highlighted how we can do that we've made promises and we've realised those promises but all we see for Labour today is an empty promise a dereliction of their duty to people who need support and we're making today then they will troop through the corridors with our MPs next week and support the amendments that we've put forward on Monday but never mind let's push on Ms Dugdale will have seen the collection of media reports that described her admirable desire to make things better for those most vulnerable as a wish to restore or cancel or reverse Tory tax credits I see her spin doctors have been spinning away all afternoon they realise they can't restore they can't cancel and they can't reverse at the risk of stating the obvious she seems to have avoided one small issues tax credits are not devolved they are not even counted as a benefit they are counted as a tax and we don't know what there will be nor whether there will be to find as a benefit the devil is always in the detail and that's something the Labour Party never take cognisance of so where is she going to find the money is she going to cut the NHS is she going to cut from education is she going to cut from local government maybe Jackie Baillie will cut the £167 billion she would rather spend on bombs but once again I suppose we are familiar with it now Labour is making promises they can never fulfil Labour Party members in Scotland have seen just how true it is when 70 per cent of their vote to not renew Trident but the London party told them their day with their tell so let's give people a bit of hope let's do something for the people of Scotland support the full devolution of tax credit not a wishy washy top-up just support the full devolution of tax credit to the Scotland bill and then we can work together to make life better for those people that we all care about thank you so much now call on Neil Bibby to be followed by Fiona McLeod up to five minutes please minister welcome the opportunity I'm proud to speak in favour of Scottish Labour's motion today on tax credits tax credits have helped millions of families up and down the country since they were introduced by the last Labour Government they were instrumental in lifting over a million children out of poverty during the last Labour Government by putting money into the pockets of working people and today they currently support nearly 50,000 families in west Scotland 350,000 families across Scotland and over 3 million people up and down the UK I have spoken to literally hundreds of people including some of my own family members who rely on this vital support they are so important to so many people that's why it's scandalous that the Tories now want to take that support away from working families what's even more scandalous is that David Cameron and the Tories broke their promise to the Scottish and UK public earlier this year David Cameron told millions of working people during the general election campaign live on national television that he would not cut tax credits and yet he is planning to cut tax credits now at last week's Prime Minister's Questions we saw Jeremy Corbyn ask the Prime Minister six times whether any working families would be worse off as a result of these changes in April next year and six times David Cameron did not give a straight answer now the questions we are asking today is whether the SNP Government and others will join with Kezia Dugdale and Scottish Labour's call to give a clear commitment to help working families in Scotland and by agreeing that if necessary we will restore the money lost through tax credit cuts to working families we know what Nicola Sturgeon has said about tax credit cuts on 25 June she said cuts of that magnitude will have a significant impact on families and poverty levels in this country and they will push more people into relying on services such as foot-backings so as usual we have nice warm words from Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Neil today but working families need more than that what working families don't need is excuse after excuse from SNP members who appear keen to find problems and highlight reasons not to act because we all know you know if the member was in when he heard my speech but I gave on behalf of the Government a very clear commitment once we know what the further changes are that the Chancellor has said he will announce on the 25 November we will then look at what gaps need to be filled and we will take whatever action is necessary that is the sensible thing to do the detail of Labour's proposals quite frankly have not been properly thought out we need to think out the detail and we need to do the things properly at the right time if you want to give the clear commitment in Scotland you will withdraw your amendment and support Labour's motion this afternoon because we all know you have the power to act we've been saying it the Scotland office have been saying it Spice have said it and even Alex Neil appears to be saying it this afternoon we heard it on the bedroom tax the SNP saying that we can't act they actually said legally they couldn't take action to mitigate the bedroom tax until Labour run Renfrewshire council and Labour in this chamber put it forward as a budget amendment the bedroom tax is actually cited in the SNP amendment so let's not tell families across Scotland that we cannot take action where there is a will there is a way the question isn't whether there is a way for the SNP the question is whether there is the political will this as Jackie Baillie said is it the fine day for the Scottish Parliament will we decide to exploit the political argument or do the right thing and give people a clear commitment to those who need it we know and the SNP know that you have the power and you have the resources too Labour has said we wouldn't abolish your passenger duty costing £250 million in the process helping families and stopping children falling into poverty has to be a bigger priority than cutting airline taxes and if SNP members think the opposite then you have your priorities all wrong we can also achieve the resources needed by making different decisions than George Osborne on tax rates without anyone having to pay any more tax than they are currently paying today we can make this socially just policy work if we have the political will to do so so there's a number of key questions left if the SNP want to mitigate the cuts and they as Claire Adamson said have a well put together and costed plan what is it and where is it and given Alex Neil's comments on having the powers and questions over the competency of the amendment are they going to withdraw the amendment and are they actually going to vote against Labour's motion tonight that calls for the firm action to restore the money lost through tax credits Scottish Labour has put forward a motion today that can begin the process of supporting working families in Scotland and I urge all members opposite if they are serious about doing the same then to vote for the Labour motion tonight thank you now call on Fiona McLeod after which we'll move to the closing speeches up to five minutes please thank you I think this debate has been characterised by a lot of heat and noise especially from one area of the chamber and perhaps what we have to do is look at facts we need to look at facts in a variety of ways so first let's test the Tories actions against the Scottish Government's response the Tories cut and the Scottish Government mitigates we don't have the money but we find it and we do it so there's the first fact we have mitigated against the heinous Tory welfare cuts but then we have to test the Labour Party's proposals against facts we have to test the Labour Party's proposals against legislative facts against financial facts and against political facts the legislation is absolutely clear that in the Scotland Bill there will be a limited devolution of benefits from the United Kingdom to the Scottish Parliament a limited devolution of benefits the benefits system only ever works if it's done holistically we're getting a limited devolution of benefits then let's have a look at legislative amendments that down in Westminster we can be supporting or opposing the SNP laid an amendment to the Scotland Bill to as Christina McKelvie and Stuart McMillan talked about ensure that all tax credits are devolved to this Parliament in their totality that we will get the devolution of air passenger duty do you prefer to spend that money cutting tickets for businessmen flying to London or would you rather put it in the pockets of working people or would you prefer? Mr Findlay, you're talking about the devolution of air passenger duty that was something if I remember rightly that the Labour Party didn't actually want they actually said that it was better to remain with the UK Government and also talking about it holistically I want all benefits devolved to this Parliament but I also want the economic leavers to allow us to make our economy prosperous so that we can then reinvest that back into a socially welfare just Scottish society so it's about facts Mr Findlay, not your airy fairy, let's have a go at the SNP and there's another one Mr Findlay can ask you to do this can I put to the Labour Party next week will you vote for the SNP amendment to devolve everything to this Parliament unlike other SNP amendments that you just don't vote for because they're the SNP unlike in July this year when 184 out of 232 Labour MPs didn't oppose Tory welfare proposals those are the legislative facts that we're looking at and on the UK Government amendment that was lodged today there's a question I'd like to pose on the new Scottish benefits that we produce from this Parliament be immune from a UK clawback through other benefit changes and other tax changes and the one that comes to mind for me is free personal and nursing care something that this Parliament is incredibly proud of but when we introduce free personal and nursing care the UK Government took away attendance allowance for our old folk in Scotland so let's make sure that the UK Government amendment actually gives us not just the power but it makes sure that they can interfere with what we do I'm rapidly running out of time so to talk about Labour's way of approaching this financially it's just all over the place politically Tories you're beyond words what you're doing is beyond words but Labour's words have to be checked against the Scottish Government in actions and many of my colleagues have already been through what we have done to mitigate in total 296 million pounds out of a diminished Scottish Government budget over 213 to 16 to mitigate Tory welfare cuts but do you know something the reality is politically and financially we can't keep going on mitigating and we shouldn't have to it's wrong it's cruel and it's deceitful to say that this Scottish Parliament can continue to mitigate the cuts that are coming from Westminster it's wrong, it's cruel and it's deceitful not to say that if you want to do something about the cuts coming from Westminster but at the same time say that you don't want the powers in this Scottish Parliament to benefit our economy so that we can reinvest back in a socially just Scotland thank you thank you very much and before we turn to the closing speeches I want to refer to the point of order raised by James Kelly during this afternoon's debate which related to the competence of the amendment in the name of Alec Neill the veracity of any points raised in an amendment is a matter for the member proposing the amendment not for the Presiding Officer veracity is not an admissibility criterion for an amendment therefore in terms of the standing orders the amendment in the name of Alec Neill is competent we'll now move the closing speeches and I call on Willie Rennie to close on behalf of the Liberals six minutes please Mr Rennie thank you I think Hugh Henry in his contribution spoke about really what it's all about he spoke about Mark and Agnes they had two jobs they were working 60 hours a week they were struggling to put food on the table they were struggling to spend time with their kids any extra hour spent working was less time with their kids it's that couple that this debate is all about you'd find it difficult sometimes to believe that in this chamber that it's connected to that but Hugh Henry hit the nail on the head that's exactly what this debate is all about and that we must do everything we possibly can to exactly influence that we have to make the change that's necessary whether it's done here or whether it's done in Westminster we must do everything we possibly can to help Mark and Agnes cos that couple is what it's all about I think what we should be trying to do in this country is make work pay we should be incentivising people into work and what the Conservatives are proposing despite their claims of being for work and people and being in favour of work is they are making benefits pay it would be better off for some people if these changes go through to be on benefits rather than to be in work that's what this whole system was created to do in the first place just like our tax cuts for those in lower middle incomes it was about incentivising people into work so I cannot understand why we are trying to reverse that action before we've driven up the wages that we all want to see to that kind of living wage level the real living wage that we all want to see before that happens the cuts are being implemented so if this chamber really wants to make an impact let's really focus on what we can do to make the difference send the message to the Conservatives at Westminster just like the House of Lords has done to actually have a proper programme of change yes by all means try to put an end to the government subsidising companies who pay their employees low wages try and put an end to that but don't do it on the backs of working people who are struggling to make ends meet I think to do it in that way and to present it in terms of trying to balance the budget only in those terms I think is unfair that the Prime Minister was right as well when he talked about the Conservatives' record on this it was not in their manifesto talked about £12 billion of welfare cuts but tax credit cuts weren't mentioned at all they didn't argue for it in any of the debates that I heard during the election campaign and in fact the Prime Minister explicitly ruled it out as an option ruled it out completely on the record to match on this and if they believed what they said during the election campaign they should make meaningful change in the autumn statement SNP speakers find it difficult to put the referendum behind them even when even when the minister has admitted today that the power is coming that back benchers are still stuck singing an old song stuck arguing for more powers when we need to focus on how to use the powers that are coming Christina McKelvie, Joan McAlpine, Stuart McMillan Fiona McLeod, they all made the case for more powers rather than focusing on what Alex Neil says he's now focusing on which is how they all get very excited when I start talking about the referendum who says we only talk about the referendum I think the SNP members are the ones that are only interested in more powers rather than actually making this Parliament work for working people but we know the SNP are in trouble when they appeal for unity they appeal for unity, always unity though always unity on their terms never anybody else's terms always on their terms and then, Clare Adamson was brilliant I have to commend her without one scintilla of embarrassment she called for that unity and then in the next breath condemned the Labour Party now how do you seek unity and appeal for unity if you're condemning the people you're trying to seek consensus with I cannot understand and I'm impressed by her because I didn't think it was possible to do such a thing George Adam continued that attack so did Christina McKelvie but there's someone absent today that Presbyterian accountant the Deputy First Minister because he said quite clearly just a few weeks ago he said just a few weeks ago that it was highly unlikely he would reverse the conservative planned benefit cuts highly unlikely we heard we heard about his record in the white paper the £2.5 billion cuts that they bellied for a long time about but actually didn't do anything about when it came to the white paper not one extra penny more than Ian Duncan Smith was planning not one penny more so they'll be judged by their record so today was the most humiliating day for Alex Neil arrived starting off arguing that he did not have the power and then concluding that he had the power after all all in the one speech now we know the SNP like to say different things to different people saying whatever they want but they usually exhibit a certain degree of sophistication when deploying that tool they usually get different people to say different things to different people Alex Neil is obviously so confident about his own abilities that he thinks he can say different things to different people all in the one speech and that's exactly what he did today so a commendant did play in Adamson for his speaking ability so let's get back to what Hugh Henry was talking about earlier on how are we going to help Mark and Agnes that's what it's all about and that's how this Parliament will be judged any thanks now we're calling Liz Smith up to six minutes please thank you Deputy I think it's been a very highly charged debate this afternoon I think the contest for the highest decibel levels in between Mr Neil and Miss Bailey particularly when we were discussing whether the amendment was admissible or not to the point that you've now cleared up Deputy Presiding Officer but I think welfare is a contentious and an emotive issue so it's not surprising that passions have been running high indeed Hugh Henry made an interesting point that he said that he felt that the standard of debate in the House of Lords was much better than in this place and in the House of Commons I hope today Mr Mackay that some of that has been redressed because I think Willie Rennie is right in his opening remarks where he said that this has actually been a good debate Labour motion is blunt in its criticism but can I remind them again of the context that some of their very senior Westminster Labour colleagues said that one of the unintended consequences of Labour Party policy is that we are actually now subsidising lower wages in a way that was never intended and that's not an argument for scrapping the tax but an argument for adjusting the system so that wages are in fact driven up and that's good advice from people like Alistair Darling and it's a clear pointer to the fact that the current high level of tax credits creates long-term pressures on the economy and creates great difficulties for public spending so Labour cannot get away from the fact that 9 out of 10 working families with children became eligible for tax credits and that's not a sustainable situation Now notwithstanding the recent differences, very strong differences of opinion between the House of Commons and the House of Lords because they reflect pretty much the serious concerns about this issue and the Scottish Conservatives have been quite clear in their approach that we do have concerns particularly about the timing of some of these adjustments and I think it's very important when the autumn statement comes Yes of course here were quite clear why they sent Annabelle Goldie down to the House of Lords to back up the Conservative Government Simple reason that Annabelle Goldie put on record on television the other day that it was a point of principle about what the nature of that bill actually was but that said those who want to reinstake tax credits to a similar level that they are just now they have to explain two things firstly how they would actually pay for them and balance the books secondly how Britain and obviously Scotland in this case could in those circumstances move to a high wage low tax economy which promotes much stronger growth and which will not burden future generations with unimaginable levels of debt and that's again a point that I think the Labour Party needs to consider very carefully because just to pick up the point that Willie Rennie said in his closing speech the national living wage policy plus lower taxes plus reform tax credits comes as a macroeconomic package, it's not, it can't be seen in isolation so it's our contention on this side of the chamber given the new powers that are coming to this place that we must reject policies which seek to introduce taxation policies that put Scotland at a competitive disadvantage for exactly the reasons that Murdo Fraser set out in his opening speech Mark McDonald said something interesting about the debate being about principal and practical issues I think there's some truth in that but it's also about choices and we are clearly going to come to different decisions in the different political parties in this chamber about the different choices now I was a little surprised given an announcement I won't at this point Mr McDonald if you don't mind I was a little surprised given an announcement made by Aileen Campbell about the reason why childcare and educational changes are important I have to say a measure that I was interested to hear her making because I think what she was trying to drive at was some of the issues about better provision in that area so I was slightly surprised that the SNP members didn't raise some of that because we're very clear on this side of the chamber that this also has to be part of the equation for future Scotland's children I was interested at the weekend to hear in the Labour Party conference that they are going to introduce 78 million I think it is for a fair start fund and that's to provide extra teaching and extra facilities as I understand it for the most deprived pupils and I have to say that's a laudable aim in principle if I don't actually agree with the way that they're going to pay for it but what is really interesting from the Labour Party is that they're saying that that money is going to follow the child and that the money is going to bypass local authorities and go straight to head teachers which party was it that criticised the Tories for doing exactly that I can point to amendments in the name of Neil Bibby of a speech that Malcolm Chisholm made and Carol Hilton made at times in the past where they have criticised this party for saying exactly that in conversion from the Labour Party I very much welcome it because it is a very important part of the package that goes with ensuring that our children have the best start in life Deputy Presiding Officer we find ourselves at a very interesting time in Scottish and in British politics there will have to be difficult choices made our party is prepared to make these difficult choices but also to accept a lot of the criticism that has been levelled in our direction about the timescale for these changes and trying to mitigate it in terms of the poorest so that's an important thing to think about as we go up with a knock about politics that are very familiar to this chamber there are real issues here there are real choices to be made and naturally I am supporting the amendment in the name of Murdo Fraser many thanks I now call on Margaret Burgess up to 8 minutes please minister okay thank you Presiding Officer in ways it has been a highly charged debate because it's an issue that is absolutely critically important and it's been highlighted by a number of members what we're talking about here is low paid people in communities throughout Scotland and we will always seek to protect them so I'm going to start by being absolutely clear and reiterate what Alec Neill said at the start that we will address these issues but we will do it by looking to what happens to new claimants how do we fill the gap between the implementation of tax credit changes and the date from the Parliament and his power to fill the gaps so we will look at this in a measured way once the Chancellor has announced what he intends to do with tax credits on the 25th of November but be assured that this Scottish Government will not stand by and let low paid people in our communities suffer I'll take an intervention I hear what the minister says about looking at the practical implications but I wonder whether we could establish a principle today is it the principle of the SNP Government to restore tax credits that have been cut by the Tories in full principle of the SNP Government to ensure that low paid working families in Scotland do not suffer through the Tory cuts and that's what we're saying because we're still I think if you let me go through my speech a bit more I think Jackie Baillie will actually understand what I'm saying because he didn't listen to the cabinet secretary so hopefully she might listen to some of what I'm saying Presiding Officer if Labour don't want the cuts in tax credits they should back the SNP amendment to the Scotland bill that would ensure tax credits were under the control of this Parliament instead of a Chancellor looking to cut £1,500 from a quarter of a million working families in just six months there was no Labour backing for an SNP amendment as Joan McAlpine outlined that would have devolved all working age benefits to the Scottish Parliament in the last report stage of the Scotland bill and if Labour seemed to have now had an about face in realising that tax credits should be in the hands of the Scottish Parliament and hopefully they can support our amendment and also our amendment which would devolve employment rights and the minimal wage to the Scottish Parliament I'll take an intervention I want to make some progress and then I will take an intervention later so these are powers that we can use to lift people's wages and lifestyles and tackle inequalities in our society and I would also point out to Murdo Fraser and his Tory colleagues that his party didn't go to the last general election with a manifesto commitment on these cuts and no wonder they know the results that these punitive measures would have had Ruth Davidson have spoken publicly then to voice her concerns as Mr Fraser says she's done or she kept in the dark like the rest of the voting public Presiding Officer, only a matter of weeks ago the Cabinet Secretary Alex Neil wrote again to the UK Government asking them to think again on tax credits and I very much hope that the Chancellor and the UK Government will listen to the views of the people of Scotland and beyond because I'll take an intervention Can the minister confirm because I was a bit confused by some of the discussion earlier on Can the minister confirm what the cabinet secretary said that there was a UK Government amendment table today in the House of Commons and that's what he was predicating his argument on Minister? No, what I can say is that today, late on today, we were told a UK Government was tabled which supports what the Scottish Government has done in a considerable time to give the Scottish Government power to create their own benefits because under the current what the current Scotland Bill currently stands at we don't have that power there's an amendment that's tabled it hasn't been agreed an amendment has been tabled with other amendments however Jackie Baillie didn't seem to know but Jackie Baillie was pushing the one which would have allowed the Scottish Government when we get the powers the ability to top up people benefits to people who had an existing entitlement and that wouldn't have covered people who fell off the tax credits cliff in April 2016 because they would no longer have had an entitlement and we couldn't have topped that up so we may have made some progress in that but I don't think I'll go back to that if you want to debate the semantics of it but what I want to talk about is what we're actually going to do in tax credits is what we're actually trying to do in tax credits and what we're trying to do is protect the people that are losing tax credits across Scotland and we also will continue to fight the UK Government on this because it's something that the UK Government are creating this for the people of Scotland we pay into a social security system that we want in Scotland we want the tax credits to be paid we wanted the bedroom didn't want the bedroom tax we didn't elect a Tory Government and they're imposing those changes in us and it's right that we try and make them see the error of their ways and not spend their money in nuclear weapons and spend it in social security helping the low paid in this country I won't take an intervention just now the proposed cuts to tax credits that the Tories are talking about won't be replaced by any rise in the UK Government's new national minimum wage and it's not a living wage as they would have us believe nor will it be replaced by any other measures announced in the budgets it's clear that working families will lose out and I think Labour and the SNP can absolutely agree in that because of the result of the changes that were proposed by the Chancellor we've been there before in terms of the bedroom tax and I mean we heard what Jackie Baillie said in the bedroom tax we opposed it from day one we constantly opposed the bedroom tax we tried to get the UK Government to change their mind we knew we had a problem we had to deal with and we were willing to do that but we had to find the mechanism a mechanism that was right administratively workable and that we could cost and we did that and the people of Scotland appreciate that we did that and we will do it again in our society so we've got a record of meaningful action one of record of credibility and competence and I have to say to some Labour opponents it's easy to stand up and say at conference speak to your members you're going to do something but when you don't have the means of ideas and how to deliver it and they're relying on funds how long do I have left take the intervention can I thank you very much can I for the record just correct you that people waiting a year a full year before you mitigated the bedroom tax but can I ask for a point of clarification Presiding Officer a point of clarification Alex Neil said earlier that an amendment was tabled by the UK Government he didn't say it would be tabled at the end of the day he said it was tabled would he clarify his comments Minister that's just actually taking up some of my time but I'll go back to bedroom tax we had meaningful action we helped 72,000 households with a bedroom tax 80% of which contain a disabled adult and around 11,000 households with one or more children the reality is we deliver so let me be very clear again the cabinet secretary said it he said it in his speech he said it in an intervention I said it at the beginning of my speech this government will set out clear incredible and costed plans to support low income households following the comprehensive spending review that's when we'll know how many families are involved and how much they will lose but I would also say in line with what others have said we shouldn't have to do this a Tory government that Scotland didn't elect which is making cuts are doing it and the final point I would want to make you've made your final point Minister the five task boss today and I now call on Jenny Marr to wind up the debate Miss Marr you have until 4.59 Presiding Officer nothing in politics is inevitable there was nothing inevitable about women getting the vote there was nothing inevitable about the creation of the national health service nothing inevitable about the smoking ban passed by this very Parliament they all had to be fought for people had to campaign for progressive change and politicians had to be brave enough to make decisions that would upset vested interests so as we debate the cruel cuts to the tax credits it's important that we remember that this policy did not just drop out of the sky tax credits were not an inevitable change for working families across this country it took a bold decision by a Labour Government and a Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer to make the changes which have made so much difference to people's lives Labour was brave enough to redistribute money to those who needed it most and Presiding Officer we believed and we still believe that children and working families need support in the face of low pay and we took action to help them the consequence was a radical overhaul of our tax and welfare system which put fairness at its heart and that is reflected in the motion in Jackie Baillie's name today we did that in the face of the same arguments we hear from the Tories today but we resisted their empty claims and invested in hard working families who deserved better than they had under previous Tory Governments and we have heard from the SNP benches that this policy to slash Labour's tax credits will put thousands of children in poverty thousands Presiding Officer 1700 families in Mark McDonald's constituency he said 1800 families in central Scotland according to Clare Adamson 1800 families in Stuart McMillan's region George Adams said 10,500 families in Renfrewshire and talked of the 17,000 children that would be affected and the Cabinet Secretary Alec Neal himself said 5000 families in his own constituency the SNP really should think hard before they vote against the Labour motion tonight to support these families and reinstate their tax credits with the power that they have let me make a little progress I cannot imagine why even a Tory Government would find these families and these strivers as fair game for their cuts agenda but target them they will they will answer in time for their broken promises David Cameron's broken promise credits and so with the changes to the Scotland Bill perhaps another thing we can be thankful to Gordon Brown for the baton the baton will fall to whichever party the people of Scotland trust to form a government here in Holyrood next May Scottish Labour and Kezia Dugdale have shown that they are prepared to be bold with a well thought out costed plan to increase the level of tax credits in Scotland to a level that we believe to be fair and the SNP they offer families facing deep cuts to their household budgets only excuses after excuse after excuse Presiding Officer let me take you through some of the excuses we have heard today we will be happy to take the Minister's intervention there is not enough time this is not the right time we don't know what the spending review will say we need full powers we need full economic levers we need to redesign the whole benefit system before we do this we don't have enough power we don't have enough power we don't have enough power I think the point was she missed what I said when I spoke at the and I said it three times this Scottish Government will lay out what we will do to help people in low income families that are suffered by the tax credit losses and I'll make that very clear and I'll say it again and we will do that based on information and we will find who the people are because quite frankly if the benefits were devolved all of tax credits were devolved here it would actually be an easier job for any Government to do it for the charge of all the benefits another list of waffle and excuses the key point here is the principle will the SNP use the power in their hands the power they already have support Labour's motion tonight to restore tax credits to families who need them the principle here is absolutely clear make no mistake when these powers pass to the Scottish Parliament when these powers pass to the Scottish Parliament they will no longer be Tory cuts they will be cuts imposed by whichever party holds the balance of power in this chamber and fails to reinstate tax credits if Nicola Sturgeon First Minister they will be the SNP and her cuts Kezia Dugdale like Gordon Brown before her has shown her priorities by pledging to put money in the pockets of hard working families battling low pay the member is not taking interventions oh yes she is Christina McKelvie thank you very much Ms Marra the only question I have is will Labour support the SNP amendments to the Scotland bill to fully devolve tax credits on Monday and so please the only question the people of Scotland are asking this afternoon is whether the SNP will restore the tax Kezia Dugdale like Gordon Brown before her has shown her priorities by pledging to put money in the pockets of hard working families Nicola Sturgeon like George Osborne before her has chosen to leave hard working families worse off so she can pursue her own pet projects for George Osborne it is inheritance tax breaks for Nicola Sturgeon it is tax breaks for the poor airline companies like Ryanair who just this week announced record profits Presiding Officer Of course this is not the first time the SNP's record on welfare support has been found wanting we heard the same excuses when the Tories brought forward the hated bedroom tax John Swinney told us he would not help families because he did not want to let the Tories off the hook it was only when Labour embarrassed them into action that we saw them use the money and here we are again first we were told that the money was not available to reverse tax credit cuts when we found the money we were then told again and again and again this afternoon that the powers do not exist forgive me if I am wrong but it sounds suspiciously like this SNP Government is looking for reasons not to take action rather than using the powers that they have been campaigning for for families Presiding Officer there is a clear matter of principle it would be very remiss of the First Minister and the SNP not to support the principle of Labour's motion this evening very thanks and that concludes the debate on supporting Scotland's children and it's now time to move on to the next item of business point of order Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer in response to your ruling on my previous point of order in the debate I contend Allow Mr Kelly to be heard please I contend that the SNP amendment is not competent in relation to its point about the powers Will you allow me to hear Mr Kelly's point of order please Am I going to be allowed to make my point of order or are we just going to descend into a rabble The SNP amendment is not competent on two points we've heard from the minister that amendments have been lodged which give effect to the powers in the Scotland Bill to remove tax credits in addition to that the clear advice from Spice states that tax credits can be assumed to be included in the competence offered by clause 21 allowing the Scottish Parliament the legislative competence to introduce top-up payments to people in Scotland entitled to reserved benefits Therefore on those two we can have no credibility as a parliament if we're voting on an amendment which is not competent and therefore Deputy Presiding Officer I call on you to rule the amendment out of order Thank you Mr Kelly for raising a further point of order However the accuracy of content of motions is not a matter for the Presiding Officers so this is not a point of order it was not a point of order before nor is it now but the point has been made nonetheless We now move on to the next item of business and the next item of business is consideration of business motion number 14708 in the name of Joe Fitzpatrick on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau setting out a business programme I now would ask any member who wishes to speak against the motion to press the request to speak button now I now call on Joe Fitzpatrick to move the motion please formally moved Thank you No member has asked to speak against the motion therefore I'll now put the question to the chamber and the question is that motion number 14708 in the name of Joe Fitzpatrick be agreed to are we agreed We are The next item of business is consideration of three business motions I would ask Joe Fitzpatrick on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau to move on block motion number 14709 14710 14711 setting out timetables for various bills et cetera Minister moved on block I propose to ask a single question on these motions if any member objects to a single question being put please say so now No member has objected to a single question being put therefore I'll now put the questions to the chamber and the question is that motion number 14709 14710 14711 in the name of Joe Fitzpatrick be agreed to are we all agreed We are Thank you the motions are there for agreed to The next item of business is consideration of five Parliamentary Bureau motions and I would ask Joe Fitzpatrick to move motion number 14695 on committee meetings motion number 14696 on the designation of a lead committee and motion number 14697 14705 and 14707 on approval of SSRs Moved on block Thank you and the questions on these motions will be put at decision time to which we now come and there are seven questions to be put as a result of today's business and I wish to remind members that in relation to today's business if the amendment in the name of Alex Neil is agreed the amendment in the name of Willie Rennie Falls in addition if the amendment in the name of Murdo Fraser is agreed the amendment in the name of Willie Rennie Falls and the first question is that amendment 14688.3 in the name of Alex Neil which seeks to amend motion number 14688 in the name of Jackie Baillie on supporting Scotland's children be agreed to are we all agreed? Parliament is not agreed therefore there will be a vote members should cast their votes now the result of the vote and amendment number 14688.3 in the name of Alex Neil is yes 62 no 48 there were four abstentions and the amendment is therefore agreed the amendment is agreed to therefore the amendment in the name of Willie Rennie Falls the next question is that amendment 14688.1 in the name of Murdo Fraser which seeks to amend motion number 14688 in the name of Jackie Baillie on supporting Scotland's children be agreed to are we all agreed? Parliament is not agreed therefore we will move to a vote please cast your votes now result of the vote and amendment number 14688.1 in the name of Murdo Fraser is yes 62 no 40 there were no abstentions and the amendment is therefore not agreed the next question is that motion 14688 in the name of Jackie Baillie as amended on supporting Scotland's children be agreed to are we all agreed? Parliament is not agreed there will be a division please cast your votes now the result of the vote and motion number 14688 in the name of Jackie Baillie as amended is yes 62 no 48 there were four abstentions and the motion is therefore the motion as amended is therefore agreed next question is that motion 14695 in the name of Joe Fitzpatrick on committee meetings be agreed to are we all agreed? next question is that motion number 14696 in the name of Joe Fitzpatrick on the designation of a lead committee be agreed to are we all agreed? and the seventh question is and I propose to ask a single question on motion number 14697 14705 and 14707 on approval of SSIs if any member objects to a single question being put please say so now as no member has objected to a single question being put therefore I now put the question to the chamber and the question is that motions number 14697 14705 and 14707 in the name of Joe Fitzpatrick on approval of SSIs be agreed to be agreed are we all agreed? yes we are many thanks and that concludes decision time and we will now move to the next item of business which is members business I would ask members to leave the chamber quickly and quietly