 All right. Hello guys. Hello afternoon day two slush. Thank you for anyone who's still here watching us. It's been it's been a long two days So on stage I have with me four iconic venture capital funds and four young investors at those funds And I think I don't think anyone on this stage except for me has been at slush before I think Kleiner is the only fund that has visited slush before and also none of these funds have a presence in Europe So it's truly is a novel perspective that we're bringing in and on stage today Before we get going let's do a quick round of introductions or add to the introductions that was said earlier So each of you how did you make first make your way into the world of venture? And why are you investing with the fund you're currently investing with currently? Hi everyone, my name is Matias. I'm actually from Argentina and I first made my way into venture because I was at NYU and Kind of the ball of gravity is always kind of Turning you towards banking or consulting or something like that But I was lucky enough to find this firm called inside venture partners Which is based in New York and hires kind of 20 year old kids to go find cool investments So that was my first my first gig and I immediately fell in love with it and That's what I've been doing for the last kind of for the last ten years The reason I'm at Founders Fund is that when I left insight to go to a portfolio company in Spain To get some operational experience I was in charge of a few things one of them being fundraising and through that process I got to know 30 different venture funds And I thought that Founders Fund had kind of like the sharpest questions and kind of the really differentiated thinking and so I asked them for a job. They didn't hire me, but they told me, you know Let's stay in touch get to know each other over time and I went to capital G which is alphabets growth fund I was there for a couple of years also doing a lot of international investing and I kept kind of Getting together with Founders Fund and then two years in Got to know the entire the entire partnership and ended up joining in 2018 So I've been here for four years and really the reason I picked Founders Fund for kind of my long haul After being at three different firms It's it's really kind of the contrarian mentality that it's not just kind of a marketing slogan It's really proving out in practice when you look at the kinds of investments that that the team has made over the years Kind of really bold really courageous And really willing to stand up and say things that others are maybe afraid to talk about and so I think They really do live and breathe that contrarian mentality and yeah I've been there for four years and you know hoping to be there for a lot longer Fantastic. How about Lisa? Hi everyone. I'm Lisa Xu investor at first mark capital. First of all, thanks for having me It's been such a awesome time being in Helsinki and that's less for the first time So how I made my way into a venture so at first out of school I was at being in company management consulting firm And so had been working with investors growth equity funds and private equity funds helping them with due diligence So always was interested in investing and worked on some exciting deals like Peloton and other early-stage investments So Before going to the investment side I actually worked at two startups in New York Peloton and handy really trying to understand You know what was going on at startups and you know what it took to build companies and after the second company exited I decided to make my way over to the venture side And as a quick introduction first mark is an early-stage venture capital firm based in New York City We invest at seed series a typically lead those rounds and invest primarily in Europe US and Canada so the reason I find myself there is because I really love the New York ecosystem at the time It was still you know a very small ecosystem compared to the Bay Area And I had spent you know my operating years at really New York Startups at their core, and so I really love that focus. I love the concentrated model with which we approach investing At the hands-on approach that we take to building because New York was such a fledging ecosystem We had to be and kind of help the founders through those building those networks So I really loved the team, and that's why I've been here ever since all right over to Josh Hi everyone, I'm Josh. I'm a partner here at Kleiner Perkins. It's it's an honor to be here I I found out about venture a little bit serendipitously So I started my career thinking I was gonna be a software engineer and quickly realized I was not very good at it So I did a total 360 and instead tried the finance world for a little bit And I was lucky enough to advise companies like LinkedIn or or net suite on their acquisitions And it was through that process I realized there's these things called board members and they get paid for their job And I said this is insane like I would do this for free So I found out more about venture capital took the dive fell in love with Kleiner Perkins for a lot of reasons And I've been here ever since so that's my quick story. All right last but not least Ashley I'm Ashley Paxton. I'm a partner at Meritech. I first started getting into venture by working at McKinsey I did a lot of working financial services So working with banks pension funds asset managers and the like wanted to move from financial services to the fintech side It's a lot more interesting and watching growing companies and helping them and supporting them doing so so move to Bay and Cap ventures I was there for four to five years doing predominantly fintech So invested in plio out in Denmark go card list to name a few and then joined Meritech in January To help build out the fintech practice and continue with B2B SaaS And so for quick context Meritech or a series B plus focus company Across investing across both the US and Europe so investing in companies like UiPath Personio data dog to name a few and the reason I was drawn to Meritech specifically was I came up against them a lot at Bain and really appreciated one as trying to follow on to their companies But working and collaborating with them on companies we're looking at together was impressed by the people there They're rigged with their companies and watching how they've supported their companies was incredibly impressive All right, so a diversified set of paths into venture on a diversified set of investment platforms that you're working at All right, but let's get into it now So we're gonna start with Lisa and my first question is like as was established None of your funds have a presence in Europe or originally from the from the US and something we had such a very proud office That you know, we've been part of creating the fantastic growth We've seen recently in the European ecosystem in 10 years venture capital invested here It's up something like 10x and we've seen a number of funds not yours, but with others established offices here So considering this how do you approach investing in Europe? Yeah, it's a great question So, I mean at the highest level It's a very similar set of things that we look for obviously across the US and Europe You know exceptional founders disruptive businesses exciting markets, but I think the nuance for us in particular is we're always thinking about company investor Fit and you know in a competitive market. Why does the founder want to choose us over so many great firms out there? And why do we deserve to win the deal? So I think you know in particular for European companies We typically invest in and support those companies when they're getting ready to Accelerate their go-to-market and commercial efforts in the US And so you know what that typically looks like is these companies may have a couple customers in the US They're starting to feel more more pull from the American market to enter and really establish their presence there And we typically see that around the series a And so for us and why that's important for us is because as I mentioned, we're very hands-on investors Much of our business both on the investment side and our platform team Which is a very robust team at first mark is building networks across talent expertise and Commercial our customer and so when the European company wants to enter we can bring a lot of value right off the bat We can help them you know hire their go-to-market leaders and teams We can bring them the first set of customers add that to their pipeline and also help their executives think about You know the right operating model in the US and so that's how we think about it That's why it's been kind of a compelling reason for European founders to choose us even over Some of the the firms on the ground here And so we continue to grow our presence in the in Europe. We have some great companies those who have spoken here including sastra fi and pigment and Synthesia where we're co-invested with Josh and so we continue to think Europe is a very important part of our strategy Definitely, so we heard a couple of reasons why you know European founders should pick first mark over some of the fantastic funds We have here locally. I want to hear a few more perspectives Why should I as a European founder take money from founders fund? Yeah, good question. I think it's a few different reasons You know, I think one one being that if you want to hear really blunt feedback and you want to hear the truth I think we're you know We're really good at giving unfiltered feedback and I think we're not afraid to speak up where others might might be a little bit More shy and I think the other the other really good reason is You kind of self select yourself into into a network and a group of you know Really strong founders. I think that is by far the the highest criteria on our list And I think we place a much higher weight on founder quality than most other VCs and then as a team You know, we're very small, but we're super collaborative and so despite you know Who leads any given investment you get to work across a variety of different people on the partnership who have different You know who kind of spike on different things right and so Peter is you know one of the great macro thinkers Keith is you know a true operator that's been kind of doing that for 25 years across a variety of companies Napoleon who's kind of this like gifted financial mind, you know, Brian singerman who's like a master strategist You know, we just hired Sam blond who's a CRO at Brex and you know knows go to market Extremely well and so I think it's kind of a wealth of different experiences And we are very proactive about even you know regardless of who leads an investment making sure founders are able to get Exposure and kind of benefit from the broader partnership. All right and for an exclusively sort of growth stage perspective Actually, I'd be keen to hear why marry tech over one of the European growth funds Well, we also are collaborative so we can work with the other European growth funds as well But our approach is highly focused so our motto is being in the market leaders in the markets that matter and To achieve that we're highly focused So we only do one to two deals per partner per year and our fund is composed of pretty much exclusively partners And so as a fact that we do not scale we make sure that we have time for all the companies we work with and so we Spend it in a very large amount of time helping them think through sales Complanting had a scale from five million to a hundred million to a billion of ARR How to go public and everything in between and so I think it's more having a hands-on approach at the growth stage Which tends to be a little bit more rare with some other growth funds. All right. That's some interesting contacts Let's switch gears then and let's discuss the topic that has no doubt been mentioned like 15 times on this stage during these days So the macro environment we all know that this has been a hard year and it's marked a sort of distinct change from some of the craze we've seen recently in Inventure across both the US and Europe so so Josh given this environment, you know, are you currently deploying capital? Yeah, I'm happy to give the 16th response during this conference around the macro environment But yes, the short answer is yes I will start by just recognizing that the macro headwinds are real today right you have this kind of confluence of different factors that everyone's trying to navigate whether it's energy crisis or Runaway inflation and in rising interest rates to counteract that are the geopolitical conflict going on But yes, the short answer is yes and the reason for that is because we tend to find during these times they tend to forge these founders that in my perspective have kind of even greater resilience or Financial discipline or really kind of an orientation to their mission that they're willing to run through walls and Don't necessarily get kind of bloated and raised too much money and kind of set these kind of expectations up for them Where they potentially could fail like raising a too high of evaluation So we're actually more excited than ever especially as others are kind of you know shying away from investing That's our time to come in and that's what I'm most excited by I would bifurcate I would tell you that like on the early stage side seed series a series be any founders out there You tend to be a little more buffered from a lot of the macro that's happening So you can think about it. This is usually it's uncontrollable And if you keep keep your head down build a great company set the foundation and kind of grow into the maturity It will probably work out and hopefully things will be better by then if you're later stage It's a lot harder and a lot of companies have raised the valuations that are probably one or two years ahead of where they are From a commercial attraction standpoint, so it's just going to take some time for that to resolve out But that's generally how we think about it interesting For anyone who wants to take this question like as Josh pointed out like especially later stage round We've seen a market sort of you know downturn. We've seen far less investment than we did Saying a comparable period of time last year So how long seeing as there is like so much dry powder in the market and that eventually needs to get invested in the next couple of Years when are we back to like 2020 2021 2021 level of investment per quarter per year? No one take a guess Personally, I don't think we'll get back to the 21 levels for many years I think if there's one thing I could do for the benefit of the venture market is I would cut every single firm's AUM in half so that everybody can kind of re click reset and get back to a little bit more of a rational mindset But I think what what's more likely to happen is that everybody that was deploying these funds in one two or three years It's going to take more like five seven years to deploy And so I think we you'll see that come down at the same time I think a lot of the tourist capital that got into the into the asset class with very little experience and basically no I think we'll pull back as well And so even though everybody's talking about you know the 200 billion of dry powder I don't think it means that we're getting back to 21 levels for a long period of time And on top of that I think a lot of these firms have also registered and right now when you look at the public markets The risk reward is so much more compelling than late-stage venture that I think a lot of that capital will be deployed in the public markets So my take is we won't get to those levels for you know, maybe at least a decade. Yeah, I totally agree I think in the near term one of the things we're looking for is really Valuation expectations to reset on the founder level, you know I think many founders are still operating on 2021 as you said valuation expectations and as investors It's difficult for us to justify those valuations given where you know public market comps have have fallen to and One thing that's interesting. I actually heard at this conference is that it seems like The the effect on Europe has been a little bit delayed and in the US markets We're actually already seeing valuations come down meaningfully even at the stage that we invest in you know I just we did a series a About half the valuation that we would have done a year ago And so I think that's gonna trickle through the international ecosystem as well But it's something we're already seeing and something that needs to happen for firms to be comfortable doing investments Yeah, I think you're right I think Q1 was still sort of record-breaking in Europe even compared to last year I was on Q2 when we saw sort of a slight slowdown and now we've really felt the full effect of what's going on Right, but let's continue with you Matias So you come out of a fund which has some of as you mentioned some of the most principle sort of You know against the market venture capitalists out there out there in the world So seeing as we've gone through this sort of couple of years of craziness Which is now sort of slowed down calm down. Are there some like venture investing? Heuristics which you know you or the market thought to be true that have either been proven very wrong or very right in the In the past few years Yeah, I think it's a very interesting question because most firms tend to have these investing heuristics Which are you know effectively kind of shortcuts so that you don't have to do as much work And you can kind of have a gut reaction to whether you want to do an investment And I think most of those heuristics tend to be right But it's usually in the outliers and in the exceptions where you tend to find really big outcomes And so you have to be careful not to you know Revert to kind of lazy thinking I think one of the heuristics that that that's definitely wrong in our view is You know when you see founders that have been ostracized by the media and by the industry and become kind of unbackable So to speak, you know, we have two really good examples in our portfolio One being Palmer lucky. He was a founder of Oculus sold the company to Facebook Huge huge success and he was going to be at Facebook forever Kind of building his life's work in the in the VR world and he got fired for making a political donation and got super ostracized and Nobody wanted to work with him and one of my partners trace evens who's a big defense geek decided to incubate a company with Palmer and a group of early Palantir alums and In the early rounds No, none of the major firms wanted to work with the company because it was perceived to be kind of toxic or or something along those lines And you know fast forward five years the company's doing half a billion in sales This rat this year closing kind of a billion dollar Primary round which is kind of unheard of in this year's market. And so it's gone from being concerned to being consensus I think it's clearly proven that you need to do your own work and assessing a founder's integrity as opposed to kind of just going with Whatever the the current sentiment is and the other examples Parker Conrad which is a company that we share with with Josh the founder of Xenofits that was kind of like publicly crucified once when Xenofits imploded and I think he he took a lot of the blame that wasn't necessarily his fault and He's a very kind of high integrity person and one of the most gifted product leaders of our generation And so we decided to fund rippling in the depths of cove it and the company's been an incredible success story and again Just like Andrew went from being concerned to being consensus And you now see you know a lot of the a lot of the investors want to invest in the company on the flip side of that I think there are heuristics that I think are really powerful and In my view, I think the monopoly thesis is one that has always been true and that you see the public market today Which are the companies that haven't been destroyed? I mean everyone's suffered but the ones that have really held up the most are the ones that are really dominant in their industries and don't Have like 18 competitors competing away their margins And the challenge with the monopoly thesis is that they're very hard to find these monopoly companies Usually you you kind of have to look where others aren't looking Which I think is tied to the second heuristics, which I think is very powerful Which is just being really contrarian And going where others are not and I think that is much easier said done done But in this last cycle, I think everybody talks about being contrarian But I think as an example the crypto market is a great example of people were not contrarian at all and that in the depths You know when when prices were very low nobody was buying as soon as they went up everybody everybody was buying and so I think This is a wake-up call and kind of reality check in that you really do have to try to Think and invest against the crowd And so I think those two heuristics to me have always been been really really profoundly true And I think it's important to kind of be thoughtful about those on an ongoing basis So I'm a textbook Peter ceiling there either a building a monopoly or Just to add on to that I took the question in a little bit of a different way of which heuristics or other venture capitalists Thinking about and benchmarking off of and something we heard a lot last year was like top line is everything this company is ripping It's growing four hundred percent. We have to back it no matter what and I don't know I mean, I don't think that's the best heuristic There's not a sense of bigger is always better Sometimes that may be the case like you have to be bigger and better to out execute your clear peer competitor But in most other cases like if you're deploying money into SNM It needs to be measured and defined if you're putting money into R&D It has to be tied to a product or a product roadmap if you're putting money to G&A you should probably stop Of all other things But and but one positive heuristic that has to the test of time is sales efficiency like I would pay I pay and pay up for a good unit of efficient sales growth any day of the week super interesting if we Yeah, maybe I'll just one thing that I hear a lot I call it a VC ism and this has been proven wrong actually by Parker Conrad we were just talking about which is that a lot of VCs will say in today's world You have to focus on like one product on one product only and it's like really narrow sliver Create a beach head quote-unquote and then kind of expand out and the thesis and my eyes can be right But I actually think it can be quite wrong at the same time And in a world where it's so easy to build a software product because there's all these primitives around in which case If you build a single product and it gets traction you have like 15 competitors coming after you I think this notion of building starting with maybe five or six products at once going after some coherent Kind of single use case and like leveraging the interplay between those different products is super powerful And this is Parker Conrad has done this in the case of rippling with as a compound startup in the HR world My sense is we're going to see more of that play out in every single vertical Leveraging some canonical system or record or data and then building products on top of that So that's the other VC ism that I would push back on a little bit of you do not have to start with a single product You can actually be very successful starting with many at once Let's continue on this topic. Let's continue with Ashley So I'm curious if we don't talk about venture investing when we talk about company building specifically like operational company building Are there some sort of company building truths or some things you hold to be true that are very easy to overlook or like most people would Perhaps disagree with Yeah, I mean one would be the importance of growing 1% not a hundred percent and What I know it sounds unintuitive But what I mean by that is we all talk to exceptional companies with big visions and in massive markets But the most exceptional companies outperformed by just 1% every day Or every week and that outperformance compounds Expedentially over time to become the next snowflakes or robloxes or data dogs You name it and that's really hard because if you have an incredible company and you're hiring top talent It's just human nature to want to work on the shiny new object or the new product That will cause a step function change in the business, but what actually drives Massive returns and builds defensible businesses is truly internalizing and understanding the law of compounded effort and watching that manifest over time Do we have some more? Yeah, one of the company building truths as you called it I probably underestimated when I first started venture is just strength of team Of course that applies to the founders we back and you know We've all seen I think one of the later questions is you know, how important is market versus founder I found time and time again founder is the most important Not only because where we invest The product the market could change dramatically in one day as the crypto market has obviously and then the best teams can pivot But also, you know as it comes to building out that executive leadership team And that's something we emphasize a lot especially a series of investors preparing our companies to raise great series bees from Ashley and Josh over here and Matias, but you know, they get incredible leverage from great leaders And very very not only poor leverage, but actually wasted time, you know, incredibly precious time when they hire the wrong leaders And I always tell my founders if you hire a CRO or CMO and you don't feel like they're pushing you You know pushing you on strategy seeing around corners that you couldn't see and of course Hopefully not help having you continue to manage those teams then they probably aren't good enough So that's something, you know, we try to lean in heavily if you know Whether that's surfacing great candidates that we know from our network that are proven leaders or helping Interview and you know provide an extra set of eyes on candidates. That's something that's proved time and time again to be incredibly valuable Yes, you started looking too comfortable in your chair there Throw in a surprise question for you. Let's take the inverse of the previous Is there something that founders reaching out to you repeatedly think you really care about and like really try and emphasize Around the inverse try and hide but actually like is it important to you at all? Yeah, I feel like You know, I have seen a lot of founders that try to tailor the pitch to What they think you want to hear and so it's almost like personalizing the pitch to your fund And to me that usually comes off as very inauthentic And so to me it's like just just be authentic and tell me exactly why you care about building your company That's always going to feel more natural and I think lead to a more profound kind of relationship So I said that to me is something that that usually turns me off But at the end of the day, I think what's really important is that? You got to build a company that you feel is very charismatic I think it's something about company building that people usually overlook is You're gonna need to hire an excellent team and excellent teams want to join a company that has a powerful mission But also just have a charismatic story that people feel is kind of it's gonna have a very Positive impact on the world and there's something unique and interesting and That really wants to make people work hard, especially when things are going through a hard time And so if you're if you're starting a company that that that's hard to build that kind of charisma around it I think you're gonna you're gonna struggle a lot more. Yeah, that's a good answer Right Josh. So, you know, perhaps venture capital isn't quite as sort of brutally competitive as it would have been 12 months ago, you know, perhaps you aren't sort of competing against each other for every deal out there So considering that how are you currently spending your time across inbound versus outbound? The short answers we do both I think on the inbound side We are lucky to have great relationships with seed funds angels founders Executives and they'll introduce us to their friends or portfolio companies when they're thinking about a series a round or a series B round Having said that and maybe this will change a little bit in the macro I don't see it changing much. I find that there's more venture funds than ever before There's more capital raised than ever before and we're seeing more preemptive rounds than ever before and the result of that is that We're just way more competitive and you have to lean on outbound I don't know how you get in front of well, maybe taking a step back Our job as venture capitalists is to get in front of the best founders as early as possible to partner with them I don't think you can do that just by sitting back and kind of resting on your laurels and and thinking VC is more Like Shark Tank than it is in the real world. I don't think great founders will come to you all the time I think you really have to kind of put yourself out there So I think if we do rest on our laurels That's kind of the start of our decline in terms of you know becoming irrelevant and we're really paranoid about that So I do a lot of up on and it's increasing amount of up on relative to inbound All right, let's go to Ashley. So if I Am a European sort of founder I've raised my series a and I want to raise my series B from Maritac and I want to reach out to you, but like what's the best way? How do I catch your attention in your in-box or wherever? Yeah, I guess to add on also as part of your question How spending time because we only do one to two deals per partner for your and that's it a lot of my time is more pre-work around Companies that I want to invest in and so to figure out those signals or as you said what you want to hear It's not just one signal or one thing. It's this amalgamation of both qualitative and quantitative signals So on the qualitative side, you know, have you announced a deal? Have you announced a new product? Have you announced a crucial key hire? Have you hired somebody who I know in my network? Well, I'm like that person's a rock star and you landed her like that's amazing Or quantitative of how big is your team? How fast you are and what groups are you hiring into what countries? Are you hiring them into and so it's putting together these puzzle pieces to figure out is it a company? I want to spend time and do pre-work on and so if you get that email or I outbound being prepared for that kind of company All right And Lisa let's bring you in for the to the outbound option when you're actually going out and you're sourcing a deal Can you describe like what goes on in your mind when you decide that now for the next few hours? I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna find the best possible company. I can like what are you looking for? Well, what does a fantastic company look like for you? Yeah, absolutely Maybe just for context. I think all venture investing is pretty network driven Of course, there's a lot of hustle as well But you know particularly on the early stage it is very network driven And so, you know, I get intros at the precede from some of the best founders our network And that's that inbound tends to be actually a very high signal compared to other efforts that we do But you know, I do do a lot of outbound and I do know in a very focused way It tends to be you know in two buckets one would I would call like sector a theme where you know I'm spending time like I should said maybe I'm really interested in the theme Doing work on the market at least trying to get a top-down view of why I think that's interesting in which companies Are building the most interesting companies and so you know, I will do a slew of You know, these are the ten companies that fit, you know the high-level thesis on this space and In that case it's helpful if a founder could you know has a medium post or is active or you know At least as a network of either operators startups in the space that you know I can reach out to that certainly helps. I think the other category that's been very high signal is Both our portfolio networks and the networks that we build with operators So we actually run a number of online communities that which we call guilds So it's you know CTO guild CRO go guild etc. And in those conversations, which I always lurk and and watch those forums They're always servicing interesting new software companies that they're buying or using and looking for and so We've actually sourced a number of companies that way of you know Some of our best companies saying hey We had a huge problem and this this company solved it for us. And so that tends to be very productive as well all right and Matias you become our like principles guys, so let's let's hit off one more principle Don Valentine founder Sequoia capital has quite famously said that he cares more about the market than the founder like fantastic Market make great founders not the other way around so which one is more important Or sorry like which one is better like an exceptional founder in a mediocre market or a mediocre founder in an exceptional market Yeah, maybe at risk of disagreeing with you know with the legendary down Valentine I think we would disagree with that because we've seen time and time again that the best founders are able to either Expand their markets or discover adjacent markets that may be kind of hard to predict If you look at a Elon with SpaceX The original TAM for SpaceX was measured in the low billion So it was like the US launch business and it was maybe three four billion our market with maybe like 10 15 percent Margin business it was very hard to underwrite a large outcome And as everybody knows he then expanded into Starlink who's you know with the TAM is measured in the tens of billions If not over a hundred billion and so you know a very crystal clear example of somebody at that level Able to take an original business and then do something with it. That's completely, you know order of magnitude larger If you look at New Bank in Brazil Also kind of a company that originally was just credit cards in Brazil Brazil's GDP is like a tenth of the US So it was hard to envision a very large company emerging just in credit cards in Brazil But David Vell is being you know an exceptional entrepreneur was able to first get a super high penetration of the market Which we love kind of in a monopoly of a small market and then use that to then Successfully cross-sell so many different financial products and then use that to expand into Mexico expand into Colombia Which is much harder to expand in Latin America than it is in Europe given the regulatory piece And now you see New Bank even in this bear market trading for 20 billion Because they've successfully kind of proven that out and I think originally you might have gone stuck on the Brazil TAM question And lastly, you know fair another great example. I know Max was here yesterday The running joke about fair was that they were just selling chocolate and candles to gift shops I'm like how big of a company could that possibly be but Max is relentless and he's you know truly one of the greats and Now they're doing several billion in GMB because they've successfully Entered more and more categories with a model that people thought was impossible to do and so Of course, like if you're in a clearly horrible market, maybe you're not that good of a founder to start off So I think you need to dominate a small market first You know to borrow another one of Peter's kind of philosophies and then use that to win adjacent markets All right. Thanks guys for listening in congratulations. You're close or half an hour closer to the party now We leave you with it. So if you learned something about venture and thanks everyone for joining. Thank you