 You already mentioned your Motown. That's the D20. I just want people to know that is not my era. Don't look here and mess with y'all. You'll have people be like, oh, it looks so young. Jamel? No, no, no. Jamel is 64, and she doesn't know anyone to know. And she, Jamel, stop it. You look good. Black and Black. Tell her that. Thank you. Go ahead. Appreciate it, Carol. We don't talk about representation and how important it is and how much it means to people, you know, enough. And I see, I see the both of you. I see your show. I think about my family, my upbringing, single parent household, my mom, my sister, my grandmother, my auntie, the strong, you know, women and influential, Black figures in my life. And I'm curious for you growing up, you know, there's the classic, you know, representation, you know, especially nowadays, Barack Obama and the old person, people like that. Jamel, give me an example of someone who, who you saw in a role that she didn't typically see that, that may have inspired you. Well, I mean, I guess, you know, I was raised, you know, so by some very strong life women in my family. And so I think when you grow up in that dynamic, the gender lines don't really apply to you because you're used to seeing women have to frankly be mother and father. And so my mom is mother and father and whatever else I needed in between my grandmother was the same way. My great aunt, she was the same way. And so there was this consistent line of women in my family who had, who were independent, who were used to having to figure everything out for themselves. And they certainly did not, they did not dismiss the help of men. It's just that if they sat around and waited for a man to help, nothing would get done. And that's no, you're right. And that's no, you know, kind of shot at men, but it's, it's the truth. It's like, you know, there were some absences that were in there that kind of put them in certain situations. And as a result, they had to learn to adapt and learn to be the breadwinners of their families. And also, you know, the counselors and, you know, mama, daddy, grandpa, all that in between, you know, I stand on some very sturdy and wondrous shoulders. So that's really my, you know, inspiration. I mean, sure, there've been, I can make celebrities that have, but the fact is celebrities were people that were so far away from my daily existence, the people in my life on a day-to-day basis. Yeah, because I think about this often as I go grocery shopping, like a small example is that, and I don't say this trying to brag, but I can't remember the last time I looked at the price of something, right? And then I think about how it grew. I am not bragging. I am not. I've been bringing this full circle. I can't remember the full circle. I can't remember the last time. I really looked at something. The last time that I cared about what it is at all. As I bring in full circle, I think about how my mother, when she was on food stamps, is getting like less than $200 for the month. Right. And so, you know, I got like a treat was getting, you know, two six packs of Capri Sun and you had to make them joints last a whole month. So you had to take two sips a day. And that's just what it was. Right. And so I think about that. And just the limited resources she had, and she was pregnant at 18 years old. And I just, I don't know how she did it, you know, but you still, she still has some of that in her guys. Michael, don't let her pull you. She still has some of that in her. She doesn't have a lot of instant. Yeah. You got the cup of noodle and full stock at the house. If we needed it was there, we going hard. Don't be trying to be the bougie. Oh, I got some. I got some chef boy ID in the, in the, in the pantry. Don't get it twisted. I think for me, and representation wasn't so obvious, but when you look back on it, I wasn't, I wasn't as aware of what my mother was doing until I was an adult. But I think for me, the first time that I ever saw someone look like me was a local news reporter. I grew up in LA. So it was a local news reporter and her name was Lisa black. I don't know if that was a real life thing, but it was interesting because I was like, wow, look at her. And then it was Oprah. But Oprah for, for whatever reasons, really. Translated to me because, you know, as we tell how old we are, I was, you know, how your mom, black mama tell you, go turn the TV, call you from your room to the living room. Turn the TV. And then I, and I stopped when I saw Oprah and I was like, oh my goodness, who's this woman? She was just full of life. And I just was, I was transfixed and I didn't know what it was, but I knew I wanted to do that. Right. I knew I wanted to do whatever she was doing. And I couldn't articulate it at seven years old, but there were all these different moments in my life where I, I remember just being the only one, whether I got bus to school. So I live in LA, I got bus to school in the valley. So I'd get up an hour and a half to go to school with people who didn't look like me. And they would be like, so tell me about the blacks, you know, kids didn't know any better. And they'd be like, do you live in downtown LA next to Skid Row? I always felt like I was representing black people, no matter what I did, even at a young age. So representation for me looked a lot like me being one of the first and, and, and fitting in and trying to fit in. And then realizing that there was no such thing as fitting in, like my, my, my being was to stand out. And that was what was special. So I think what I do now though, in terms of representation, I specifically go out of my way to try to understand that when you see, especially when I first came to ESPN, Jamela and I talked about this, when you see people who look like you, it's really important just being there as a revolutionary act, although I may not have been as integral as I wanted to be when I was on first take, just sitting in that position was revolutionary. And you realize that when you meet young girls that come up after you or women after you who want to do the same thing. And not just black and brown girls, we're just the idea of a woman being in the room and being comfortable and being in the room. And so now for me, representation is all that matters. I feel like everything we do, all the work that we do, everything that we've done is to make sure that we're holding the door open for those who don't look like us in terms of people who want to be in the world that we are in. Yes, they may be black, but they don't know how to get in that world. They don't know how to do what we're doing right now. And if they see us being our true authentic selves, as much as we possibly can be, then I think that's inspiring. On that, don't laugh, but when I, this is going to sound like I'm cracking a joke after on a serious topic, but I started in radio and when I saw Martin on WZUP, like just seeing a brother on a microphone, you know, sitcom show, whatever. How many brothers wanted to go into advertising after Boomerang? Right, right, right. Right, right. You know, I'm watching inside stuff with Amad Rashad, you know, wanting me to, you know, get in sports and do an interview and whatnot. I'll start with you, Jamal, how did you, you know, you've done a lot of things. You continue to do a lot of different things, but specifically with sports journalism and sports broadcasting, you know, what got you interested in that, in that path? Growing up, I was the neighborhood time boy. So I love playing sports and I always had a natural affinity for it, you know, back then I had a little bit of speed. I could actually play a few things. So I was a pretty decent athlete and that also was great in terms of preparing me to constantly being in a company I'm in and having to, when being around me and having to stand your ground and being able to give it as good as you got it. You know, it's like, yeah, I mean, people are, people often ask me about, you know, some of my clapbacks on Twitter where I was like, well, I started on Asbury Park back in, you know, to be at 80s. Okay, because if you wanted to hang around the boys on the block or whatever, you had to, you couldn't be sensitive and you had to be able to take and dish out just as much. So it started from there. And I also was a voracious reader as well, had a library card. Matter of fact, that reminds me, I need to really get on one here in Los Angeles, because this is so far the first city I've lived in and I haven't had one, but I used to read quite a bit. And so I had an appreciation for the English language and for writing and for prose, if you will. And so then as well during that time, you get to, you have to read the newspaper in order to follow your favorite sports teams. And so being a big sports player, I also started to read the newspaper. And when I took a high school journalism class, I kind of put all those elements together and realized that I wanted to be a journalist, but in particular I wanted to pursue sports. So started working for my high school newspaper and got an apprenticeship at the local paper the Detroit Free Press. And I was kind of off to the races after that. So I was really fortunate. And then I knew very early on that, that sports journalism is what I wanted to do. The broadcasting stuff was like a real, was purely an accident. And it was driven by the fact that people on TV made a lot of money. Right. Right. Back to the fact, Michael, that she hasn't looked at a bill. That's why I started making that TV money. That's because trust me had I still been at a newspaper, I would have been sitting there and clip the coupons and been like, you know what, the P's on sale for 50 nascent this week. So I'm going to go back to that. We are in a recession flash pandemic. You better. You better. Yeah. So it's like, I, you know, the roots of that are much different in broadcasting. Like that was just a happy accident. The product of being at ESPN because one of the beauties of going to a place like ESPN is that they have so many platforms and you know, they never turned down people wanting to do extra work, particularly when it's, they don't have to pay for it. So, you know, as I do it all. Exactly. Keep working. So as I, when I, I came to ESPN, not as a broadcaster as a writer, I was a columnist for ESPN.com. And eventually I started to make more appearances on TV on shows like first taken. You know, one producer, you know, next thing you know, they're all calling you and asking you to be on and next thing you know, hosting a show, a daily show with one of my good friends and Michael Smith and next thing you know, we're doing a sports center. And next thing you know, I'm not there anymore. So. Yes. It was the print journal journalism was the only thing I wanted to do. My dream job was actually to work as sports illustrator. ESPN was never on my vision board. So I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was heard it's not going to come to me. So I was in front of the TV screen. I was live and I was contemptuous and I was a post illustrator. ESPN was never on my vision board because that's where the writers went. And that's why I felt like the best sports journalism was done. So. So, yeah, I mean, it was a, a very planned route. But I can say surprisingly and happily, that probably the last 10 years of my career, I've made a ton of moves that I never expected to make So that was never, that was never my plan and my goal because, you know, we so elated sometimes in our thinking. So we used to be like, look at those TV people thinking that they all better than everybody else with their little makeup and sauntering on television. And Lord, look, I look up and I was like, I don't know what you're in the dark side. There's nobody show. You're in the dark side. You got a makeup artist. You got a hair style. I'm saying. Look what you all have turned me into. I don't know myself anymore. Yeah, I know. Who are you? Who are you woman? When did you know sports was something you just wanted to get involved with from a broadcast standpoint. Well, I started off as a local journalist so I whatever my beat was was what I love so it didn't really matter I had always been I came to this as a true band. So I was a local one man band and West Virginia worked my way up did all the stuff I had to do, you know, to, to really figure it out, jump from market to market. And then I finally got to Atlanta and then when I was in Atlanta, a couple of things happened one. Well, no, I'd say in West Palm, we started covering the Serena, the William sisters Serena specifically. And in golf for those are the things that are huge important golf intended so I was always on that beat probably because I was black but it just made sense. And so I would always come with that and I thought okay this is my four way, you know, my 48 I don't know if that's the right word into it but then I was like okay I covered it good loved it. Then I went to Atlanta and then I started covering the Hawks and then I started covering the Falcons and then the dream and it just it all made sense but I was a local news reporter like that's all I cared about. Like my end game was supposed to be standing on the White House lawn for CNN, you know, talking about what's going on in the world that was where it was supposed to be although sports was always in my life because I was a fan of specifically basketball the Lakers, and I don't think many people know that about me. As a Laker fan, I remember thinking because I ended up working at tennis channel. And then I was like oh I should go this is literally what I said in my head I like tennis channel was great I traveled the world, I knew everything was great. I loved it. I was like I should probably go and work for ESPN if I want to do tennis the right way. But in my mind I was going to go and cover the Lakers. It was just that simple. I was like I'm just going to go ahead and cover the Lakers for them and I don't want to go do a freelance and then I just forgot some other stuff. I was just really that simple in my mind in my silly night mind but night the day is a wonderful thing. And then I went out to Bristol on my own two cents and I was like okay I was meeting people talking to people and they were like we're going to call you back. I'm not going to be here later but a lot of calling and touching base and then they call and they were like hey do you want to host the show called first page and I'm like wait I was supposed to be a Lakers freelance reporter because I love Lakers. That's all I wanted to talk about. If I had my own beat. Well you know as a as a local reporter my beat just would have been a Lakers like I am all good I don't need to do anything else that would have been heaven. It would have been out of been the most annoying reporter, but it would have been heaven. That's all I had to do. So we, you know, it worked out the way it was supposed to work out. I think for me, the reason why I transitioned to sports after local news two things one I was so over local news right I was just so bored with covering whatever it may have been. And two, I wanted to kind of create a name for myself and I knew that if I was staying local news I'd be doing the same thing that everybody else is doing and for me it helped me stand out more in terms of telling stories so I went in just under the concept of telling great stories. I was just so involved from just telling great Lakers stories to telling stories period. And I was able to do what I, what I love which is that at its core I'm just a journalist and I like to talk to stories like to talk to people like to get to know people. And then it became more, you know, Gmail just said she she has done things with her broadcasting career and her career as a journalist she never thought of. It always happens that way one thing leads to another and it just unfolds and you find out what your sweet spot is from where you live and what you're good at doing. And, and ultimately, you wake up one day, you know, after being, you know, the sporty afraid years and you're like I'd like to do something else. I'd like to take this hunger that I have for journalism and tell stories that are affecting our people right now in a very urgent way that needs to be talked about and I can't sit on the sidelines and just look at it casually. I got to be out there. And so that was my, my come to Jesus moment if you will. Now your friend to the last Jamel had always been telling me girl go on and do it go on and do it. And I was like no I can't I can't I can't. And then I finally did because at the end of the day for me Michael, it is about telling stories and making an impact. The TV thing is great that more than what a great friend is amazing. But you know, at your core when you're a journalist you know that all you want to do in general cases right and really imprinting and tell capture great stories in my cases to make sure that I'm giving subject matter that can be digested by the viewer that I am telling the stories that matter that I'm speaking for those who can speak for themselves. And if I'm able to do that on any platform I'm just grateful to versions your version carries version, Jamel. How did the idea for Carrie and Jamel won't stick to sports come about. It really is only what we will tell is only one version. Okay. Yeah, no it's not much different. It's, it's where all great ideas are born from Pinot Noir. So that's how it is really how it came about. So I was, I went to her house to jump her carry like the carry had been and I was a fighter she was she. She's gonna fight me with Bella gloss, you know the wire. Yes, that was what it was. But no, the carry have been saying forever and we had always felt that at some point we would work together and do something. But you know I was just kind of caught up in the day to day of what I was doing and in my own kind of world and carry. Being the good friend that she is decided that we needed a kick in the pants and that kick in the pants was her showing up with the camera crew, and some wine and being like we're going to put something on video, so that we can, you know, turn this into some kind of sizzle reel so we can show people that we can have good conversations we have great chemistry we're obviously really good friends so she really was the driving force in the engineer, you know behind it and because she's such a good friend and she came along for the ride so that is really how it started. No, so I'm going to give you guys the real version of it. This is. Yeah, there is two versions you write my okay. I got tired of her being so tripled and so. Okay, but that's real. That's real. No, she's absolutely right. The true story that I did not going to wait hold on my fun is bothering me. Do you mind. I want this on the outtake. So, what happened was what happened was that, do you know what I used to do. What was it called back in the day we were in Periscope. Periscope. Periscope. This thing called Periscope we would do Periscope all the time because we were always so bored, like honestly we had nothing to do, like we would just sit around and watch football game all day all Saturday and Sunday, our lives were around events but we would just periscope and we would call it auntie's periscoping and people loved it and we thought it was funny and we knew there was something there and obviously I'll come on his and hers and she would and I'd be on their podcast and on their show and she would come on Sports Center when she was an L. It was just, it just made sense for us to always kind of connect and do something because we always have these real life stories that we can tell on air but we know not to go too far. We don't do that right now I'm married. And so I was like, hey, let's put together a pilot just as talking about it was going to be called one more like because we like wine so we want to put together a pilot of us just sitting wine and talking about everything and we talked about everything we talked about. Jay-Z and what was going on with the NFL and whether or not Colin Kaepernick had a point and was Jay-Z wrong. We talked about voting for Trump and how both of our family members, significant family, her mother, my grandmother voted for Trump. We talked about all these different issues under the guise of just keeping it real and it was more me interviewing her because Jamela's more of an opinionist than I was at the time but I have an opinion. This is why we always laugh if you were like, Carrie has an opinion. She's like, well, she has too much of an opinion. So we didn't put this pilot together and it just so happens like months later, we bumped into some folks and they were like, Vice is looking to do a show. And it just so happened we had this pilot but they wanted to make it something else and then we came back to what we wanted and we were able to, I mean like all happy marriages you were able to compromise but the idea of it was like you can't tell us we can't talk about all of these things as journalists and our life experiences and what we've written about and reported on make us more than qualified. So that was the whole point of putting it together but it literally started me just knocking on her door with a bottle of red wine as she mentioned Bella gloss. It was Bella gloss. Carrie tell me about your foundation Brown Girls Dream. I remember waking up one day and not feeling like. I had any mentors like a lot of your mentors don't necessarily look like you but it would be nice if they did. And I remember all these young girls and always email me or hit me up on social media and say can you mentor me or how'd you get into business. I felt very overwhelmed but I also felt obligated to to respond and try to help in whatever way I could. One day, again, that's why you just have to do things and just do it and not think twice about it. I was like, I'm going to create a website and then I'm going to ask all my girlfriends to help me mentor a bunch of young girls and I'm just going to put this on my social media account and put an IG and say apply, and we're going to pick 20 girls and we'll see what happens. So I called up all my girlfriends who are living large in whatever aspect of life, one of them being Jamal Hill can you be a mentor. I don't know who I'm going to give you but can you be a mentor. I'm going to say in john she's a CMO of Netflix, can you be a mentor Frank Kelly Carter, she's a writer see writer is being undefeated. Can you be a mentor on the shelf turners and entertainment reporter the list goes on and on my friend Christine the CEO of the Academy. Like I got some bad brown women in my group like they are the top of their game. And I'm like, you need to share that gift right because the game is supposed to be given. So I literally asked all of them and not even thinking twice they all said yes. And, and the response was amazing. I, the need was imperative and the response was amazing we've created a sorority if you will, success stories are amazing. And where can people go to get more information. Brown girls dream.org, or you can call Jamel at 860. I love it. And Jamel, Jamel Hill is unbothered. The podcast was Spotify. What was the best part of doing those of doing those interviews. The best part is that the things you learn about people interviewing has always been something I've enjoyed. Pretty hard not to be a journalist and not love to interview people you love talking to people. You know, learning from them understanding who they are and without fail there's always somebody every single podcast, who tells me something about them that had no idea, or that just completely catches me out guard that winds up spinning off into this other thing. And one of the best compliments I often get on the guest that I have a lot of podcasts is that you know what I didn't like this person but then I listened to him with you and I kind of like him. And while the goal is not to necessarily get them light, because you know the truth is a truth and it's like I'm not going to disturb that. And I'm not trying to get you to like them because there's no skin in the game for me but I just want to present an honest compelling person who hopefully has something to say and so that part has been, you know, extremely, you know, rewarding, and I really enjoyed a lot of it and enjoyed all of it but it just feels good to kind of create something from scratch. See it grow and mature and then I think about those first few podcasts versus where things are now and it's like the dramatic difference so I'm just happy overall with what I've been able to do in that space. I love my relationship with Spotify so yeah it's been it's been extremely personally rewarding for me. I love it. I love it folks to check that out again on Spotify. Before we wrap. I mean, you know, Brooklyn, and that's coming for yes network. And six. Here we go. Why did you even do this. Why did you even know that wasn't the question. That wasn't the question. You really go with the Lakers over Lakers over the next thing. Appreciate you. Appreciate you. I'm a wrap I'm a wrap with this is there's something that you guys argue about, you know, in a fun way that has not made it on there, or does not get enough has not made it on it has not made enough time we'll wrap with that. Um, I mean, we, we talked as we talk about the argument, the one argument we've had in our friendship, which was, let's see this all goes back to carry in the Lakers, you know, I'm not my own black business. Because the Lakers carry into a different person. I knew she was a big fan, I knew it, I knew this throughout our friendship, but it wasn't until I went to a game with her that it really all settled in and I understand it because I'm a big Michigan State fan right and I often tell I'm not mature enough to watch Michigan State with other people. Okay, so like, this is something I really have to do with myself. I'll do it with my husband because he always he went to Michigan State as well. But when I went to that Lakers chair with Terry, I was frightened. I was like, I don't know. It was good. I was like, Oh my God, like I don't know. Yeah, I don't know this woman. I'd be like, she's insane. And she looked that way. She was like terrified. I was like, maybe I should dial it back. I don't know how I. And so I've learned the lesson of watching the games by myself whenever I go to games. And now in public, not anymore, but back then, I always remind myself just take the beat it never worked, but it's embarrassing. And our fight was because now this is even more embarrassing this way. And by the way, Jamal, I'd like to, I'd like to go on the record. Here's some breaking news. Guys, Josh and Eric Gregory. Let me make sure it's good over here. I'm getting all the names. Here's the breaking news about Jamal. She'd be acting like a big old bad gangster social media. She is the sweetest thing ever because here's the fight. Stop it. Stop telling me this fight. We were coming home from New York one day. It was late at night. Who knows what we were doing something for. Some event there. Yeah, some event. And we're like, how we got on the topic of who is it? Isaiah or Maddie Johnson. Isaiah Thomas or Maddie Johnson. How did we get on that topic? I don't even know. It was, it spiraled into Jamal being like, y'all just mad because he beat y'all. He'd be all of them. That's why don't nobody like him. He took one from Larry. He took one from Magic. He took one from Michael. That's why the death of the full Detroit came out. It was like, okay. And it was, and it was uncomfortable because then I thought I didn't have an answer. And like a true child, I went to personal, you know, people start calling you names because they don't have nothing to say about the effects. And then we clear she wasn't calling me any days, but let's just say names are called of people of people names are called. So Michael, here's where she, where she why defend. Clearly she was there because of Detroit, but she also loves Maddie because of MSU and she tried to be friends of both of them. And I was like, why did I where are you going with them. If you have to pick. I can't do it. I can't do it. I'm not, I'm not thinking between Biggie and podcast. I'm not. Right. I'm not. I'm not going to try to, she has many times tried to uncomfortably make me make this choice in front of magic. Because she's an evil friend. And that's what she would do. I love it. I love it. I appreciate you both. Michael put that in there. Michael put that in there. The black part Jamel is a horrible human for that. Okay. That's why I got that. That's why I got that picture you and that Clippers Jersey when you lost that bad in my phone. And the next time we get around magic, I'll be like magic. Ask yourself what a real Laker fan do this. Let me ask you, Michael Lakers and six, I'll talk to you. I'll take that bet. I'll take that bet. Thank you so much for having us. We appreciate it. Thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it.