 Yeah, see all right. Welcome to the December 13th planning Commission meeting Any amendments to the agenda? So I've just added on other business a temporary use Zoning application that was approved that I want to talk to you about and so that will come at the end of the meeting Okay, so someone prepared to grow an emotion for that Okay, so moved second, okay any discussion all those in favor all right Extension motion carries All right before we move to public comment I'm gonna ask anybody who's going to have anything to say tonight to stand up and raise your hand. It's painful. I mean painless So if you're gonna say anything at all tonight just stand up and raise your hand There you go. Go ahead get right up there. Do you swear they testimony you give tonight will be truthful and honest? All right, thank you All right, so public comment. This is a chance for any members in the audience to address the Commission on any items that either are not on the agenda or either of the items on the consent agenda also an Opportunity for commissioners if you have any Questions or items on the consent. Yes, ma'am identify yourself for the record, please Which is why I'm here For the record we did not pay her Say this is the giving season Yeah, Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas, but So I'm really green on this so you guys have to help me, but my main question is why is this town broken into districts? specifically Agricultural industrial residential conservation when there's 22,000 people in the town thinking they can use the whole town That's my question. Well, I Know it's basic, but my background is ophthalmology not zoning Well, I can take a stab at that it's it goes back a long way to separating uses and Lydian zoning okay, right and It's just a way for Municipalities to manage growth in a way that makes sense. So you have certain uses in certain districts that are compatible uses and so that we don't have Industrial parks out in our agricultural fields or Nuclear power plants in our residential neighborhoods, and you just got to Split out things in terms of where they make the most sense and and that's where you get to districts and It's the same in every town It's actually not true and most towns don't have just one single objectives all towns are under state statute or Fall under a town plan Which is the overriding document that sets the vision for the town and your zoning And subdivision regulations are just a manifestation of the goals contained in that town plan part of which is growth But Dana could probably talk for hours on town plans But in statutorily we have to amend those town plans every five years now Used to be eight. Oh good. It's getting it's getting longer and longer, which is better used to be a lot less Our next amendment is Yeah, we're a ways out I mean if you want to learn about the town of Essex the best place to go is to start with the town The currently adopted town plan which is on our community development website on Essex org and that lays out the vision For the town and then everything kind of falls flows from there But if you have ideas for changes to the town plan certainly They'll go in the list And I don't see that in our overall objective, but I'm talking my background is ophthalmology So I just want to make people see so Call it the kiss principle. I'm just trying to keep it simple These two I think are trying to keep it simple and it's really complicated listening to you guys at your meetings And but that's like I said me I understand But that's where I'm coming from. It's not safe here Like to just add to make sure that that you are aware there's a difference between a town ordinance and a town zoning regulation ordinances are Approved by the select board and the zoning regulations are approved by the planning Commission Where was Land use and now their safe use in jeopardy that's not fair So that's why I have a problem with districts and those specific districts Agriculture conservation I feel needs to be changed to residential because the conservation at Saxon Hill is residential My husband finds that people even thinking about carrying a gun in that area is They're out of their mind. They may not be coming from Essex our Essex people are wonderful They're great guys. I know some of the hunters. They're nice But the more you advertise on your maps. This is conservation. It needs to be changed to residential There are way too many people. So that's my that's my opinion what I can promise you is the discussion about gun debate and Gun ordinances will not happen at this day That belongs at the select board and if you have concerns I definitely encourage you to go to their Monday meetings and voice them there because they're the ones who have the authority to To change People My coaching is get involved with the to Tom's point if you want changes get involved with the community process and Advocate for those because that's how changes happen Any other public comment on thank you for that on any other items or the consent agenda? Okay. Thank you Consent agenda whenever your pleasure either individually or separately Make a motion we approve the consent agenda as written Okay, so we've a motion a second to approve the consent agenda. So any questions or discussion? Okay, hearing none all those in favor I Opposed abstention motion carries. Okay. Thank you Minutes of November 15th 2018 can I get a motion? I move we approve minutes of November 15th 2018 Motion by shoe We'll give Ned that one now we know how Dustin feels when he's got a pick a second Any changes or corrections, I won't do the page by page anybody have any changes they want to all right hearing none all those in favor Opposed extensions motion carries. Thank you All right now who's leading the ETC discussion Morning you both come up Join us. Oh great consultants Recreation So what what what is it exactly? Is the actual dirt road at the end Kiosk and even though they There's a little tiny parking lot there. They put another parking lot at Thompson, but maybe a scientist I only wanted to get an idea between October 15th and December 9th, which is when muzzle-loading ended how many people actually use Saxon Hill Road, which is in the zone. That's in all your colors the brown Agricultural the green conservative nine hundred feet is the conservation and then a little bit of blue Which I don't know it might be industrial. Yeah, so that's all you guys Because I think Look at it You want it back your quest is that we change the zoning for Saxon Hill. Yes So I'll take that So can I follow up with Actually Just to be clear you want to put build houses on Saxon Hill. I want Title district name because you guys like districts to be renamed to residential Which means people be allowed to build houses Few houses there are Invite their friends Neighbors Even people that come from out of town feel that it's safe because if they deem it as residential the whole world thinks it's So this is definitely starting to go create this to kind of like isn't so this would be under a zoning amendment request So this is this looks like it was a petition asking for people about safe buffers and hunting and What not not a request to change the zoning district So I think we can take her comments to say put in a request on our list I don't know if they should come to us or if they should go to the select board because it's My fear is He thinks it's great. He loves it. He's on my side. He's a sweetheart. I love Max Levy I'm gonna vote for him again. He's great This in my it's only my gut feeling that zoning and commissioners or whatever your titles are Something needs to be changed. It's just my gut again. I tried to tell you the beginning yet I'm still learning but It sounds like the board wants to support you If you want to put a petition up asking a question, do you want this zoning district change? That's something we But this is nothing So we would put that on the list for future planning Commission discussion There are people there now Call me or email me later and then we'll talk about maybe the right approach and ramifications of different approaches So patty, I'm gonna turn this over to the manager's office tomorrow Because of it just wasn't asked the way you were asking tonight to change the zoning district So either you can do it or I'll be happy to turn this over to the Okay, okay, that's fine All right, let's um, let's get back to sharing and Um Okay, they're tabs on the top. Oh, there you go. Sorry Sorry, the computer decided it wanted to start running a virus scan. So it's going to be really slow There we go Good evening, um, thank you again for our monthly get together sessions appreciate the opportunity to get with you Um Per the work plan that we identified at the beginning of this phase of the process with staff We are at I think it's meeting D review of open space recreation and I think the again back to the to the draft ETC master plan that you guys have been have in front of you This is basically the chapter four element that's described in that plan And I'll preface tonight's conversation to say we had a work session last week with staff Including Some of the the conversation we want to have tonight So I want to start the discussion around Sort of sort of kind of some core principles that the potential form-based code might consider As it relates to recreation at open space and one of the big ones is The the recognition in the form-based code that open space can take a variety of different forms and types And that um open space is not open space. So In traditional zoning and then traditional land development oftentimes open space is always the leftover piece of land The developer couldn't figure out what to do with or it's the um, you know, it's the edge of the property That's also the buffer zone. It's it's usually never It's not given a lot of form usually it's kind of the remnant land Um, and obviously that doesn't really work When you start to think about a place in a more dense environment and in a more Thoughtfully constructed environment like we are talking about in the etc so one of the big principles that the The community community engagement process last year and and obviously the master plan draft master plan has tried to instill is this idea that open space is Um available, you know, the available open spaces are going to be varied But they're going to have some forms that you're not quite as familiar with potentially Um, and so I'll go I want to talk a little bit about that tonight. The other thing I want to talk about is the importance of working with the community to identify really important critical needs for recreation and open space and making sure that those community needs are reflected In the mat and ultimately in the master plan as it gets finalized for sure But also potentially in the code so that things line up So that if you identify as a community that that there's an underserved park need within the etc that we allow for or maybe even more appropriately Seek actively seek to instill The need for park in some of these park districts so that they can they can provide that benefit to the community in the long run The the third thing I think it's important to touch on tonight will be this idea that When we when you're when you're developing in the in the form based code and you're required to do open space You again, you may have various forms that you can apply but there also could be a mechanism by which the developer pays a fee so that they can Contribute to a community investment in open space or recreation that might be more beneficial And I definitely think I'm talking with ally last last week. It was There may be some opportunities for that that really would be interesting to explore With the town because I think as we'll see tonight the the etc itself is pretty underserved And this part of sx is pretty underserved from a recreational perspective So again if we can get things to line up and then the fourth thing I think that we really want to just touch on is this this notion of of You know and as we'll have to get into in the code is when you guys are asking for open space You know into not only will a form may necessarily be different than you're used to but obviously how much open space you should be demanding In portions of the etc in balance with the fact that you want them to develop more densely and more Intensively so what you'd normally, you know normal under normal quote normal developed land development You might be seeking 30 open space for example Well, those numbers may not really work well in some of the districts we're talking about because that's just taking too much land potentially taking too much land out of dense residential or mixed-use development, so we need to sort of walk through that Anything else you want to add? Well, I would just say in addition to that when you're working in a more dense place You shift kind of from the private yard area open space into more public forms of open or civic space And so one of the things under especially under form-based codes is they end up defining different types of civic space that are more suited to an urban environment So I think what we'll be recommending and what's included in the master plan is a range that goes all the way from what you currently do in terms of resource protection and and rec paths and things like that to adding some other types of open space that deal more with Public parks or plazas in a more urban setting and again The one of the big questions in that and mark kind of alluded to it is are those areas public or are they privately managed to maintain and there are examples of both of those I think within Essex and and within the county for sure, right, right So just before we get into that, I think that would be good just to kind of kind of capture that in the master plan We did identify a number. This is obviously the etc area. We did identify a number of of recreational areas where we felt from the Community engagement process there might be some benefit for recreational open space enhancement number one would be the But in the green belt that exists along 15 and obviously a mirror potentially mirrored on the other side is the And it's slow Yeah, and it's slow In the green belt and on the other side of the 15 as this as this mix of use north Gives out the idea is have a mimic a mimic a green belt there as well and in that green belt You obviously you have rec path now, but the idea would there could be some enhancement of the recreational opportunities there with pocket parks and other sort of features more urban type features And I think that's a that was something Ali We talked a little bit with Ali that the green bill doesn't do as much as it could do So I have a question. Yeah, my intuition is that Park bench next through 15 would never get used Right, I would never use it and I can't imagine anybody else would Right, but I think I think again in terms of what this might be again as this architecture builds out It could be a little outdoor space in front of that. You're right. You're not going to be Hanging out there all the time, but these open spaces don't necessarily have to be Contemplative environments. They give me kind of more active environments So they could be a little a little Paved area with a couple benches that people wait for the restaurant down those down the street to get open That's really what we're talking about People do live there. So yeah They might use a bench so where I was going with this is it seems like Um, I've seen little pocket parks like between two buildings. Yes So like you go back and it's away from the street. You don't hear the street as much right And it's it's kind of like private, but it's You know, it's not right. Yeah, it's obviously accessible And that seems like it'd be a nice place you can go and have a conversation and but Is there a way to steer the open space toward that sort of form versus right next to the road? Yeah, absolutely. And again, that depends on I think the district by district We'll need to look at that what's really reasonable and appropriate there I think within the green belt, though, I think one thing working for the green belt's advantage is it's wide And yes, there are you know, there is traffic on route 15, but it's not all the time And so there are you know in the evening, for example route 15's traffic volume drives significantly So I think there's a there is an outdoor spacing for even front of the restaurant, for example If you go there at six or seven o'clock at night, it's not terrible out on route 15 And it's the kind of thing I think that you know in terms of the recreational function of this Obviously it's serving right now. It's kind of a linear park Because there is a path through it. There is some landscaping and that probably that's not going to disappear That certainly would continue the question on the other side of 15 would be do we kind of echo that or do we add some Additional sort of outdoor seating that may be associated with uses in that in that area So if some of these uses turned into restaurants or or gathering spots for people maybe there is a little spot where people can park themselves And eventually if there's a connection up to Indian Rock with a trail It would might be a good little place to sort of sort of know to go to meet me at this little pocket park and we'll get on our bikes another way to think about that space and its utility from a wrecked perspective is If people are using that as a transportation corridor for walking or biking It's probably nicer to have a little more separation from the road and a little more landscaping than to be right on route 15 So it's not only serving this park and recreation function, but also a transportation function Yeah, I think the path there is great Obviously next that being next road is not an issue. I'm just the other one is the you know using like a fitness You know fitness course for example and that can be part of that and that's a great, you know It's an add on here. I mean, we're we're kind of you know making lemonade out of lemons or But yeah, that's the reality I think this that the decision to allow to create a green belt there and actually get some distance You could have argued, you know You could argue either way if you want to bring the buildings right on 15 and slow everybody down and turn it into More of a downtown environment, but that decision has been made. So we're kind of working We're accepting that as a premise So that being accepted I think it becomes a question on the on the mixtures north is Maintaining that green belt so that there's some symmetry To the design so that the whole the whole area kind of functions that way And that you give this the the provisions for for open space types and recreational pipes that actually Both, you know, take that passive recreational piece path piece as well as maybe offer up some chances for those little pocket parks where they're Um, the next one was number two. This is the this is the large scale green. So we've talked with staff and peter is You know making a step in that direction. It sounds like in terms of a green space within the the The retail environment that exists in the etc in the southern part of etc, which is good I mean, you know, does it fit exactly the form that We would have contemplated no But is it actually advancing the discussion around actually having a larger green space that can be related to some of the Surrounding uses be used for events and activities. Yes. So I think, you know, whether it be by Osmosis or Cajoling or a number combination of things it's kind of happened. So that's actually a good thing But it is really I mean the idea in this part of the etc is some central gathering space that actually functions As as that as a way of bringing people together and Serving to serve events and maybe over time as this as this Development, you know gets redone because it will get redone eventually There will be some modifications to that the green can be probably a little bit better connected to the architecture So there's a more, you know, inviting relationship between the buildings and the screen But I think as a as a beachhead of of understanding that's a good outcome. That's happened. So that's good But that's that's part of the conversation that we've had Number three is the Potential park and recreation area. So we had done, you know, this this green space here Is is is again, this is the situation where there may be public and private Sort of interests, but there may be some potential for some green space there that would serve a broader community function rather than just A fellow land or a neighborhood function And that's one of the things you see a lot of the puds or and subdivisions that have been done They have green They have open space parcels within the subdivision But they're not necessarily connected to each other and they're not necessarily publicly accessible And I think one of the goals of this plan would be to try to find those areas where Maybe we can work with within the HOA construct to develop some PODs, I mean some Open spaces and public spaces that are actually more accessible to people and function in some capacity So this is an area where it would be good for Allie and the team to sort of look and say well What could that do? Maybe it is just a little Playground area. Maybe it is a little A little field or something like that now the key there would be to make sure it's connected well You know, there's there's there's sidewalk connected. I know that's in the capital improvement plan to do That's how it's in the plan But the crossings on 15 become really important because you don't want to put that in a place that's just not accessible and hard to get to Is that part of the HOA now? Yeah, I believe it actually no no like it's actually never personal There is an HOA parcel here that's got open space Yeah, so northeast of that is the large open space parcel part of Number four That's up here. So the idea number four was again, this could be this little green area where the remnant The remnant Real bad actually exists There's a potential there maybe for a little pocket park or a connection to the multi-use trail that kind of thing Which would be an interesting connection. So one of the things is this plan kind of dovetails with the connectivity plan in a Lot of ways in terms of you want to use trail connections, but they shouldn't have some Recreational function maybe beyond just a trail. So a trail had um any little link there Number five would be the the town forest land So there's there's been a bunch of you know, there's a bunch of area here near saybrook and and such that would You know, that could be a really useful part and we've talked I think we've actually talked about that location before With you maybe earlier last year There's still some discussion around what that actually means but again in terms of its adjacency to the town forest It's really good um, and remember we talked about this sort of looping Rec path that might go around the etc it could connect to that So it could be an interesting recreational opportunity that that lets folks from the etc proper walk to it or bike to it Pretty conveniently and is adjacent to the town forest So in terms of recreational needs, it might provide a little bit more of an active recreational Opportunity dovetail with this passive recreational opportunity that the town forest supports. So same question. Is that part of state brook? Yes, that's part of state brook um Six is the potential trailhead So one of the things that we explored in the in the process There's a couple properties here Where they but uh 15 and there may be some and there actually some land It looks like it's public land that might be able to bud there. So a trailhead from 15 back into the town forest Would be an interesting add. Have you looked at that? We're just just a higher level at this point. There's a great issue. I've looked at it closely There's a big great issue. Yeah, I know Um, but it doesn't have to be here Maybe you can work with someone of these under the landowners that may find out a different opportunity for that I think that's that's the point Is that if we can find some way to penetrate through this and get a reasonable access to the town forest That opens up the town forest as a recreational venue for a lot more people and much more conveniently So I think that would be a goal to to to A allow for that To be a case and as as opportunities avail themselves to look for that opportunity to take advantage of it I mean, there is a lot of challenges Existing but there are a number of these properties that if you sort of play the long game and look at them It's probably likely over the next, you know, 10 or 15 years They probably will be developed in some ways And so those will be the opportunities to work with the potential landowners To say can you give us a 15 foot white easement across the edge of your property to allow that trail connection? Yeah, so just to the south there's a tunnel under the surf and it was Um, supersized with the idea of putting a platform in there so you could um have a rec path go through that tunnel That would connect Some to the trails that are here. Yeah, we connect up there and then down there's some town property down below that In the ideal world in my mind, we have, you know, because we actually in the connectivity plan We show them at a crossing point right there under price dropper. So, you know An elevated crossing of a more formalized crossing of 15 Obviously there's issues with that in terms of being able to do it But this would be transit such but the idea would be that would be where these things kind of converge So you'd actually have a good crossing point of 15 that you could accommodate by cycle and pedestrian accessibility But then dovetail with potential connections up north and And south through the town forest, which then you start getting into a I think I think I could give the town forest a lot more Value as a recreational resource if you could get that connectivity to happen And this is a wall right now And if we can get some way of penetrating through that wall and actually allow this to connect to this then And over here even then you've got a real good synergy going on But that's that was that is of the hope there Obviously the number seven was an infill infill development So this is like this is a little bit different. This is kind of the the private Open space recreation piece But you know as you'll see as we talk about some of the open space type we're talking about are our community oriented not necessarily broad Publicly oriented, but sort of development oriented open spaces A more diverse set of forms like community gardens is a consistently is a reasonable open space type And again that adds value to those developments and makes it a little bit more attractive as a place to live Changes the form a little bit gives you a little bit more value to that open space as opposed to again as that So, uh, you know one of the things that we explored Let me see and this is the historic district one of the challenges with the historic district is is that the corner On 15 it's been really There's the building that's there on the corner which has had the retail on the bottom floor for a long long time and that building is very Close. Yeah very close You know probably has a lot of issues with it And we haven't looked at it from a structural perspective or architectural perspective But it does feel like it's it's sort of not been well cared for as it probably could And then behind it is obviously the cemetery. So there's that there's that public green space associated with the cemetery That's not really visible to everybody that little area right near the public works office. It's really Kind of a mass honestly in terms of circulation and access to some of those public spaces and so again as a as a vision potentially Looking at that either the removal of that structure or the reconstruction of that area to allow for better connectivity of that Park to the street itself to 15 itself is kind of the idea And so that would be nice if that green space actually had some relationship to the to that corner I think it would actually create the a stronger identity in that area as opposed to not I mean having a building There's fine, but maybe the building could be sort of re or you know portion of it can be taken off So that actually opens up a little bit because right now it basically just blocks the whole corner from visibility from And then obviously the one of the things we looked at was in the in and around the Library and the green there that exists probably some just some basic improvements nothing big And these are again, these are things that would would probably be done over a pair of time But just the integration of those areas and as part of as part of an open space Strategy and making sure that there's an outdoor gathering space that's suitable for that There's a lot going on in that little corner And what's really kind of lacking I think is some some some consistency across across 15 to really make it feel like it's together There's just been just a disjointed and 15 is not it's certainly contributed to that But again, we're kind of accepting 15 as 15 is So that was kind of so the high points obviously doesn't cover all of the Potentialities, but I think we were trying to identify some key Things that the community might want to think about that are really you know Hey, let's do that. So all of this is couched in the in the in the framework of You know talking with Allie and talking with the rec department How can some of these areas within the etc be better served or more appropriate served and I'll I'll pull up the map that I did so this is your town plan map and God knows I can't read these tiny little letters, but Um This is the town obviously here's the triangle right And you see with the exception of the town forest and a few other little Pockets of recreation is really nothing going on In and around the etc So I think you know again, that's to put any pressure on the etc yet has evolved, but I think there's a you know One of the things that we talked a lot about the draft is that um Recreation and open space can be a really good way of sort of helping to create place that actually is desirable to live in Particularly when you're sort of allowing the density. So this is kind of the yin yang thing We're going to allow for increased density The quid pro quo for that is we want these open spaces to be better And more connected and more valuable as opposed to just random plans So, you know as we've talked about it before the the densities that we're proposing within the etc Are significantly higher than had been previously existing in the zoning and you want to make it clear with with the world that The the rationale behind that is yes build these things tighter build these things taller build these things more densely But we want these outdoor spaces to actually function really well And provide some hopefully some community benefit and hopefully some big c community benefit that everybody in Essex can share into So I'm sure part of the etc process. Are we going to update the trails map and open space maps? Well ellies, I think ellies looking we talked last week. She's she's beginning a process Hopefully in the next year to to do basically do what would be called a parks open space trails plan Which would sort of do that work. She's going to be beginning this next year. So we're going to be playing a game of of This probably gets out ahead of that Which is this is the town planning conundrum the different the town planning goes ahead and then the zoning changes and then everybody else scrambles to catch up But I think the level that this planning process gets to and the level that the zoning would allow would give her a lot of flexibility to make that plan fit Exactly with what the community wants And Again, it gets also back to the question whether it's public or private um, I certainly In your current regulations, I know you've dealt with this the things on your maps that are referenced in the plan are referenced in your regs So they're kind of functioning in lieu of an official map But in the same capacity So if you actually want public spaces in these areas, that's something to really consider Is designating those on your plan maps at some point Again, the other option is to require have some regulatory standards specific to open space That may be privately Provided or maintained as part of a future subdivision or redevelopment So I just want to just spend a couple minutes talking about the different types of open space that the sort of the master plan Was contemplating and you can see You know everything from green square Pocket park to you know, this is the kind of the more intensive ones that you would you would potentially want to have but again, they take various forms and And code can be very prescriptive about What goes in a park? I mean you can talk about the number of benches Per you know per acre you can talk about the you know the percentage that is hard scape versus soft scape I mean you can you can regulate Very deeply if you feel it's appropriate and that is one thing as we Move that this process with you. We're going to be asking Or how do you feel about you know regulating these things? But probably at today's level it's recognizing that when you when you're offering up to Or selecting within each district what's an appropriate type of open space These things can come they can come various forms and these forms can be wildly different than than What people may be accustomed to and also get into this whole public private piece So there may be places within the etc where The community wants open space or recreational assets that are worth investing in and I don't know which type that would be probably not some of these more urban forms But probably some of the more park-like forms and if that's the case You can be very clear with you know where that goes You can be you can be very clear as to the size that needs to be You can be very clear as to the intention of that so that you can be very prescriptive about that And and you can also define you know internally define what the relationship between you and the developers might be So that may be a situation where the the property itself the developer provides the property For this to happen and the town picks up the responsibility for the park and all that or it could be a situation where the The developer is contributing to something that's off-site. I think I have that fee and loop conversation Um are these defined by size they often are yeah And then again going back down to some of the less the you know to support recreational functions. So there's there's two camps There's two camps The previous set was open space that actually is to enhance economic development activity And this is open space is to enhance recreational And both of them have real value These elements more of your sort of traditional recreational focused Open space types urban gardens natural areas playgrounds parks park events space So I I suspect that that when ali comes back with some of her wish list a lot of these will be On the table. This is the kind of stuff that the community would generally you want to sort of gravitate towards But I'm going back to that other one. I think one of the things we would we would definitely want to do Is and they've been thinking about the mixed use core primarily in the mixed use core These will be important now You know the concept that peter's provided right now is is kind of You know this without some of the architecture. They actually create the edge Condition that you want and again it's a step in the right direction But I think this is the area where a lot of these will probably tend to be privately focused But there could be some relationship between the town and the developer if it's appropriate I'm the development agreement to sort of provide some additional attributes for for example A lot of these places what you want to have is Outdoor electrical You know outlets and outdoor water and that kind of thing So if you're having a community event and you have to hook up food trucks You can do that and it's not like you're dragging power cords across them So there may be some shared cost that that into community size is appropriate to add to the Space and actually make it more community focused So here's a great example if you want to be able to have a food truck event and all the power is not available to you It's really hard to do. I think we got to think about the six months of the year that we don't have Flowers in grass, you know peter proposed a skating park and while it might not have been ideal for a storm water I think he was right on the money for the idea was behind was solid Yeah, you know that's and that's where the town might be able to work in a partnership It's like, okay. Yeah, if you can provide that space for that That's that that's game ring We will flood it and we will come in and put take the thing out in the middle of the night You know in the spring and do all that kind of sir. So it's not an all or nothing proposition Not like okay developer settled with all these and the community settled all these are Hopefully is a dialogue that goes on that says hey if you can design this space To allow for some of those things is programming things You know alley may be able to take advantage of that. So that's a relationship then that to the to the point about these supporting economic development Yeah, all of a sudden you got 55 people out there skating and hanging out looking for hot chocolate You know, I think the problem with the plan he had is he didn't put it near the hot chocolate close enough You know, honestly, I mean it's like some of these things and that's one of the reasons these are really important Because these do oftentimes really respond to architecture They like they like to be Nestled in and around architecture because it's it's these outdoor spaces that actually make those indoor spaces really work So as we as we kind of push the the etc forward in the mixed use environments particularly And this is where this these districts will be these will be applied probably to that those districts They're really more dense districts The thing I think you should be looking for is Is are you creating these open spaces in areas that actually have the ability to relate to the architecture You're proposing and do you have can you tell us a story about how they Help your economic development activity in those buildings? And if somebody comes back with a plan that says here's my green space And here's my building and they can't give you a compelling narrative There's a flag in the play. That's how I would look at that Yeah One of my disappointments with all the the housing They're the the apartment buildings. There's no little pocket parks So people can't just walk out the door and sit outside and read a book or talk to somebody, you know There's a neighborhood building there, right, right, so Personally, I really want to look for some way of getting some of those little pocket parks into this the center of the core of the etc Yeah, and I think there are if you look at the sort of the mixed use north or south You know, we're both got his property the master plan and Peter's got his there are some lots that are not There yet that haven't developed yet and if you look at them over some time There's a couple spots there that you could probably do some nice little pocket parks They don't these tend to be very small. I mean, yeah, right 5,000 square feet. I mean, they can be really small They don't have to be big You know you get into squares and you get into plazas. They get bigger You know you can get into the quarter acre half acre even plazas But these tend to be really small and you want them to be really small because it's kind of the intimacy that actually makes them useful you know But the the key on these though and you sort of see in all of these is they're always integrated with connectivity So I guess that's the other thing is that yeah that little pocket park that's adjacent to a residential development that sits out by itself And you can't get to it It doesn't really provide any value, right? So these are the things that as I think as the agc evolves You know the code can really be kind of more forceful in terms of communicating that these are important because you know these These are valuable assets that provide the residents of the owners of those property properties benefit And I think that the you know good developers will see that they've real they'll realize that if they put this in Next to their coffee shop where they put a little You know a little square area next to their building that's going to help them You know that's not that's not a that's not a it's a cost Yes, but it's a cost that actually comes back and serves them well And if they're required to do open space, you know one of the things that you can sort of get back to this The scale you need to provide is Because you know these cost more on a square foot basis You can require them to build a less, you know less open space But better quality open space and more open space It's more consistent with what you want them to you know what it has value to them And are you going to suggest ways to put that in the code? Yes Yep, real quick He just set up a tiny little hut Okay, little tiny tables And and beer for all the mountain bikers So i'm picturing at Saxon Hill right where the parking lot is but i'm saying where you can't get into that forest Where you're talking about that wall on 15? Yep What happened was they opened just a little space and that as long as they can get into the woods and bike Just a tiny teeny tiny little hut and he called it some, you know Cute little name the place is packed And people come from all over and it's so well known the kingdom trail So i know how many of you have actually done the Burlington bike path all the way up to causeway Okay, right, okay, so right so you're familiar with that so one of the Criticisms you can look at that open space so in the downtown area There's there is that interaction between the bike path and the recreational space and some of those commercial interbases skinny pancakes down there And there's that was some stuff But once you leave that and you head north The next the next food and beverage operation you get to is at the islands where the ice cream is Charlie's boat house charlie charlie's yes i know i know charlie's not always open In full disclosure my dad's ashes are buried at charlie's place But charlie's not always open but yes charlie's is not very accessible either There's a huge grade change there. That's that's a little bit challenging for people to recognize So other than charlie's godblood, you know, there's there's not a lot of opportunities there north beach, too But that's not much you gotta get off. You gotta get off the bike path down to north beach So there's not a lot of venues there and I think that's if you look at the economic activity that the merling the bike paths It suffers a little bit. There's no there's no chance for them to do much I mean, there's just really no You know, there's no land use is the rail quarter and there was never a lot of available land to do stuff so But I go by conking buffer asics here if you look at your rec path and you look at where it's sort of intersecting one of the key things that the the master plans content contemplating is providing that length from a circulation perspective and bringing it back to some of these Recreational assets so that they can be good starting points So if people would actually start at the sx town side of the e and e At the mad taco and start their bike ride or end their bike ride That's the that's like their vana for for for recreation open space planning and design So that's again, that's some of the things in terms of the open spaces that you allow and try to No, it's like the stow bike path. You can hit several Oh, oh and there's all such a stuff there. Yeah The only thing they don't do very well in stow bike path. I don't get me. This is a rant on the bike path The thing they don't do very well in bike paths and stow is they actually go down the bike path They don't have a sign on the bike bed that says go up this way for picasso blue The blue donkey and all that sort of stuff. They don't tell you that I've talked to Tom jackman before put a sign up Because people there's a lot of people that don't know where they are and they wouldn't know there's a taco place Yeah, we call those tourists So So that's you know, that's kind of the the sort of the the primer on some of these different types and so one of the things that that um, what should we talk about the sort of the the um, Mechanisms within code. They sort of can be applied in terms of you know, requiring those things into space and And you want to talk a little bit about that? Well, I mean you do have your current regs now and you do have especially under subdivision and pd You do have some open space standards, but again, they don't really differentiate between different types of open space So one of the first things I think we'll do with staff is review those Regulations to see how we can beef them up at least with regard to Essex The other thing is, you know at mark talked about payment in lieu too and right now I understand you have a recreation impact fee Um that developers can instead build facilities and get credit for those But again in this case, we're talking about things that may be off-site that may be privately owned so And I also just mentioned one of the examples I use for public versus private is the Maple tree place green, which is actually a pretty nicely done green Uh, but it is privately owned and programmed And there was a question of moving the farmer's market there There was some interest in doing that and it seems like a logical place for it But uh back then and I don't know if it's still true. There was some issue with Shaw's being right there Um and competing with Shaw's as the grocery store Uh And again, this is secondhand so I'm not sure but again that shows that If it's private you you can as mark said you can negotiate and often Use it for public things, but it it does change the nature of that and it's certainly I understand that you're you know, we talked about church street at the last meeting and You guys sent around the article from you know about the discussion they're having and that's part of that discussion too Um, how should these public spaces be? owned and maintained over time so It's definitely something we're going to need to talk about but in terms of your regulations, I think the main thing is just Uh, you know as mark said being much more clear on what type of functional open space is required And even defining that in the regs And then we can talk about things like minimum maximum size Yeah, uh, how much open space should be required in relation to multifamily Things like that I think it would be well as we get into the you know the the drafting of the code I think the one thing we will want to Think about is that minimum maximum and making sure that the ranges are are appropriate enough to sort of cover the The the spectrum here like for example in the in the mixed use north and mixed use south we may want to have a less A little bit less flexibility about that If if if the if the commission feels really strongly that they want to make sure that that doesn't get built out I mean we're we're we're kind of suffering now from a lot of things that have already been done So, you know, it puts a lot more pressure on things to come Honestly, or the redevelopment that might come And so that you know the the narrowing down the minimums and maximums Maybe more advantageous for the community so that it can be clear as to the expectations You've got whereas in some of the other parts of the etc You may be able to get away with a larger Variety of open spaces, you know commitments and the types there I just I just my my worry is that you know, I so we're we're kind of retroactively trying to create some You know improve like you mentioned talking about the the lack of some of those things that are there and And to be able to make sure that they don't get lost as the future review of projects goes on I think the the clarity of the code probably needs to be a little stronger than it would be in a greenfield environment If we're doing the greenfield environment a lot of these principles of of open space and recreation design would already be cooked into the planning That's how developers approach it. They're already looking at these then they want these things because their owners want these things But when you're dealing with sort of fitting it into a pattern that's already there It's a little tougher. So I think we'll have to look at that and give you some guidance on that The last thing I wanted to just sort of highlight is you know, you have the 2008 open space plan, which is was still a lot of Really solid things 10 years in so it's still a lot of solid things but one of the things is you may recall as the as we prepared the draft for this project was You know the scenic view corridors along 15 and the importance of the other Corridors and that's really an important part of the open space plan the preservation of some of those scenic views Now, I think we did talk a lot about And we'll talk more about this when we get into architecture and and that but we did talk a lot about preserving some of those view cones on 15 To make sure that the views and the long range use of the mountain the Campbell's hump and Mount Mansfield are not You know precluded and I think again to the degree that already exists in code is already there But I think there there would be a need to maintain some of that language so that we Continue to perpetuate that because that seems to be a that was a very That was a very important conversation with the community when we had that back a year ago And I don't suspect it's gone But I do think we do we do need to Make sure that as the code is revised and and we create this new form base code that it speaks to those issues related to the Scenic resources so some of that has to be in the etc section Where it applies. Yeah, currently your regs reference the scenic resource Study that was done in association with that. So we'll have to look at that in terms of how it relates to Yeah, there are going to be a little bit of challenges of that I think because the because you know, we are talking about in the mixed use south I mean the buildings are getting taller and and we did talk about as you might recall when we had the public process that You know, there may need to be some obstruction of view of of You know of Mount Mansfield, but the grades are working down. So we had two height zones That was there that was in partly response to some of that But I think we we'd have to do a little work in terms of figuring out if there's other language We need to do to maybe modify what that says so that it doesn't Uh act as kind of a artificial prohibition on something that has already been kind of contemplated So that's one thing I was just kind of flagged and I was thinking about that It's like well, I don't know if we haven't looked into the details of that yet But that's something we definitely need to do but I think just from the planning commissioners perspective I assume that the scenic resource issues are still obviously really important And you don't want to lose sight of those as we move this along Yeah, and the scenic high the scenic resource protection district We actually have passed but we don't really have a lot of Experience with it and it doesn't cover this area doesn't cover this area. Yeah, right So there are things to learn from that It's an overlay district and um but To the extent that we have had an opportunity to use it a little bit It's confusing to us What is the basis of confusion? I'm just curious well It started out well and good. We did a photo inventory of the town of the scenic roads And every 500 feet we took 360 photos And the emphasis if you remember the Project was views to the mountains And the idea was to save the views to Mount Mansfield and camelsome So that was the big idea and um But the grain and so what there is is least scenic to most scenic But the grain is it's very hard to use it like if if you look at a plan And you look at our district. It's like Is that in is that in the least scenic of them? The resolution is not high enough to get better mapping and data as far as what resources are where and You know what they mean in terms of when you come in for an application if you're in the least scenic area Does that mean you don't have to do anything or is there you know what level of You know protection. Are you supposed to do based on where you are and what your resources are? So let's let me put the pose the questions of planning commission if I can is is is is that notion of preservation of view of mount mansfield camelsome Sacrosanct as it relates to the etc. I'm just I don't know we'll put it out there Well, it used to be I know I know I definitely did Is it still For me pretty much. I mean I look at each application on its merits, but That comes in your head when you're really looking at Here it is because it isn't our town plan so Right not for me personally. I think the area in its totality and the look and feel of it is more important than Than this Everybody's happy. We all love the nature. So to all the people that all you guys that live on in the etc section Until you can get down that goal and putting a little pump so you get down there and bite Come on over to saxon We're not hurting the environment and enjoy the nature. I know you live in the etc And I know you've expressed in the past, you know, the interest of not losing this But On the other hand the reason people want to live out here is partly You see And you drive to it and you bike there, right? So it's a mile away. It's a mile away from my house, but I drive To saxon and park in a business in my auto place that takes care of my car They let me park for nothing. I run right from the road from 15. I have a free place to park I'm never moving. I'm living here. You sound like you could get rid of your car I can still get in there parking lot The um, just to I guess I guess, you know, there is a question that I think this is something we'll have to get We get into architecture. We're probably going to retouch on this but in terms of the Objectives that the in terms of open space and direct objectives and senior resource protection objectives there is a question as to whether it's Blanket preservation of those views from all locations on route 15 for example Or is it back to that view corridor and sort of making sure that we can define those things because I think one of the things Is this plan was sort of formulated it Again, I think it communicated pretty well This idea that there is some verticality to the some of the etc. So there's you know, a three-story building on the Route 15 side versus a four-story building their same height essentially that's the way our The grades are dropping down as you go towards the interchange in terms of 289 So that's a physical reality that we're sort of working with But there is going to be I think an interesting we have to have an interesting conversation simple with especially with the architecture about Is it the right? You know in terms of the idea of present preserving those views along the interest around the 15 quarter Is that the right approach because it may be better if that's if that's the right approach That's the person the community wants to take then Then it could create a situation where you're not Orienting architecture in a way that actually works well Because you know those view cones don't work in the same manner as a grid might for example So you may be making bad decisions about the placement of architecture In the in the effort to preserve those views which I get and I understand that I can appreciate that but in terms of the old composition you end up getting all these sort of Buildings tweaked a little bit or turned around a little bit to preserve those views But as they look at them from an assemblage it goes that doesn't make a lot of sense and we're kind of filling in some Yeah, we identify the view sheds that would get resolved. I don't think there's that many No, and the plan if you might recall in the first chapter We actually did try to identify some of those you sheds and the good news is At the end of you know at the end of uh old stage road, you know That's a big one and that actually is now getting preserved and actually Our mr. Friend and mr. Edelman is helping to contribute to that idea of that viewpoint getting kind of everybody putting that Road segment and connecting over so I think there's it's probably not a big Loss But I think it is one of those things as the the code needs to speak to how that gets handled And I think that's going to be a little that's going to probably be a little bit more tricky Of language in terms of making sure that the developers understand that we're not talking about you can't do a two Or three or a four-story building here But there are going to be some cones of view that are really important So how you treat those cones of view because of the need for this You know this this idea that the these are part of the community's open space And we want to make sure we have continue to have some of those views And maybe that's a point on which It the review of those developments becomes a little more discretionary where if you have to sacrifice Opens or you know views to the mountains versus you know good design of the buildings and the public spaces You know that's well, yeah, we talked about stepping back So in those in those quarters there may need to be a more emphasis on forms that actually step back So that the views open up and you're not sort of dealing with the canyon effect Things like that But I just my question is how much can you cook that into the rags versus how much will that just come up during a review of Um a development and be sort of a judgment call by the planning commission of the developer and the community We could take all the responsibility off the planning commission put it to you too if you want to But that's just a question Is not here No, but that's I mean that's the issue with you know with with form-based code is yeah becomes it can become Very administrative But we're we are sensitive and I think we've started this process You know and and doing the hybrid partly to do that was to give not do that. Yeah Yeah, we understood that so my point is that might be a particular topic that Has to get handled so you know starting yeah, and and I think that's a good segue to some of the other Yeah, you know one of the other things I wanted to talk about tonight is um, you know We've been going through all these different elements And we have more to go the architectures next the next the next year next month This will be starting architecture actually February now. I'll talk about that a minute Architecture and then uses that are going to be the last two big things and those are two big things to Work through what we were breaking all these things out into some pieces just to kind of have some Get you guys thinking about them Hopefully get some good some of those those bike rack elements to sort of keep track of some of the comments but I want to get very clear we're not um We will need to work with you guys to figure out what you want to regulate and what you don't At the end of the day, it's up to you guys to decide What you know how far you want to take these regulations and and how how prescriptive you want to be and how it to Darren's point how You know flexible Do you think you need to be to maintain some some? options And and we're I'm you know, we're both really sensitive to that because we know we know it's not easy to regulate and we know It's not easy to just to help help regulate that So that is a point of conversation that that we will be having as we get into next year is Okay, we've heard about these issues about open space forms and types. We've heard the issues about connectivity we've heard these issues about About the different district, you know the descriptions of those districts and other the locations of those districts those sorts of things You know, we can talk about how how detailed we want and this conversation will be really important When we get into architecture and the forms that go along with that because there are lots of and we talked a little bit about This was staff last week. There's a lot of ways to regulate buildings And you can get picking out drapes if you really want to Um, but I think you know one of the recommendations that I had was that you know To me the particularly most of the etc has there's a lot of build out that's already there So we're we're dealing with a lot of infill Mostly infill development So a lot of the forms have already been established and it's not likely that they're going to go away in the near term I mean there's new residential buildings that have been put there They're there for a while, right? But what hasn't happened in the etc has been The orientation of structures the the arrangement of buildings related to roads related to open spaces related to connectivity Has been not as good as it probably could have been so working in the form part of this the architectural part of this to make sure that buildings Solve some of those problems as they come in the new ones come in or the retrofits of old ones come in That to me it seems to be the biggest bang for the buck In terms of what the regulations could help to steer this in the direction you want to go But that's another we'll get to that um I did want to sort of procedurally we talked with staff last week about um, may recall we have the meetings and we had a meeting in uh In the 24th of january, and then we've got meetings on the 28th of february 28th of march and 25th of april and those four meetings were meant to cover Architectural form of character and uses and densities and so I talked with staff about about um Taking the 24th meeting in january and actually doing a kind of a recap of where everything's at And actually coming to you guys with some some suggestions about What we think you might want to regulate kind of how kind of an outlining Sort of approach to kind of recap to where we are to date Um, and then give you something to respond to because I think that's I see that I know I'm on my plan commission It's helpful if somebody give me something to respond to it helps me a lot Um, so instead of doing two meetings on uses and densities We would do one meeting on uses and densities because I think we've already kind of touched on those a lot in the previous discussions I think unless the commission feels otherwise I felt like we've got a pretty good understanding that we're kind of on the same page as terms of That the etc is going to be denser than it was today and that those densities sort of vary by those districts But there's a some level of concurrency. We'll obviously we'll talk more about that Um, so I don't feel like we've I didn't feel like there was a lot of need to spend two meetings on that I thought we could do that probably one but architecture in the form and character. I think it's definitely two meetings and I think we will probably want to break that up into um The mixed-use districts as one meeting and everything else is a different Because I think the mixed-use districts alone are going to take enough time in terms of their issues Um, so I don't know what the planning commission feels that that's the acceptable kind of structural change I don't think we want to gloss over density. I I think the density is really important here And it's got to be tied to the architecture And I guess my question for Dana is we're sort of all still waiting for public works to Evaluate, you know, what we can do is are we ever going to get that? We've been talking about it for months and I think it's really important is we're going to go forward talking about what forms we're going to build and how much we're going to build We need that information Yeah, so, um Dennis is got it was waiting for more information from the solid waste district and In order to be able to do another memo and we needed that before we met and the last time several meetings ago We decided to have a meeting with Dennis and three members of the planning commission during the day so we could sort of get down and really, um Brainstorm have you done that? No, because The uh his memo is going to hopefully he's going to come next it's going to come next week Okay, so it'll be done after that and you'll be the first to know I you know it because it a whole thing ties together. I mean we were talking, you know recreation. Well the amount of Our approach to recreation Is also dependent on how much we can build there and what what we build there because we need you really need to look at your client tell You know, so so it all ties together and you know Just where we I think that's where we are and we could a staff couldn't be in more agreement with you We have been Bugging Dennis. He doesn't appreciate it. Um You don't see that side of what we do Maybe i'll just stop and have a have a beer with Evan on my way home tonight and we'll talk about Have a beer with Dennis Any other commissioners have any issues with the change in approach I assume staff supports That anybody else have any issues? That's a good idea So, you know the timing of that actually I think if Dennis does give you know Give that feedback in the next couple weeks Then we'll actually have that to be able to talk about on the trial course, which I think is great And I agree with you Ned. I think there is definitely Those are some foundational things, but I also have you know, I was talking to Sharon earlier today I think it's you know, there is it there's a I think there's a conversation obviously that needs to happen at some point between the planning commission and public works And it's like board eventually and everybody in terms of in terms of the fact that What we're talking about in terms of this regulatory structure And some of the things that we're you're looking to do as a community in terms of this public private space issue The roads standards issue the recreational assets issue and all those things The atc is relative is a very small part of Essex So we know, you know, we've had this conversation again I think there's been no delusions as to the fact when you're dealing with create trying to create a place that's more elevated in its character and more pedestrian oriented and more Dense like we're talking about that there's going to be some additional costs associated with that It's not always on the community at large. It's not always on the private sector at large There's always a place in between where those two things go But it's a probably it's a it's a fair statement to say that when you Decide that you want to have an outdoor space that actually looks good Has all the sort of some of the accoutrements of a place that it costs more money to maintain And that's the decision communities make to invest in a center, right a place So in that again, that's not to I think some of the conversations some of the comments that we've seen to date I think may not really fully reflect the fact that that what we're talking about the commitment of Essex on would maybe Is a really small area and so yes, there may be some additional costs in terms of those things, but You're applying you're applying those enhancements to place In the area of town that has the most potential economic development opportunity to pay you back Which is different. So the feedback that I've got in individual conversations and I think Dustin would agree is that I think commissioners are anxious to start actually Doing work and not not and have a break from the high level conversations, which is very Theoretical and actually start having some of the substantive conversations about Some of the actual topics. That's how I feel personally. I know I don't know if other Folks kind of share that so I think uh You know, yeah, I'm looking forward to when we can go through some examples Just to hear what you have to propose, but then if you look even looking back we talked about this at last meeting looking back at some previously approved Items that have come through and then kind of running through that playbook and just talk about what they do. Yeah Yeah, you know again if the commission feels like they want to you know If you want to stop where we are now and and work through these issues and then park the conversation about architecture We could do that too. I mean we could take I'm we're totally amenable to changing the Approach this I thought you know when we when we crafted the work plan I think it was meant as a way of hopefully Getting the planning commission as much on board with sort of the the the plan the vision as much as possible So that when we got into that drafting mode, we were sort of All kind of could come back to that touchstone and say, okay. I remember why we're doing this now Right. Why are we talking about these different types of open space? Well mark talked about that at one point This makes a lot of sense Or it doesn't But You know, this is probably a good point where we could decide, you know Again, there's a there's a number of substance that we have district boundaries For example that we've kind of worked through and I think we've got some clarity around those We've got purpose statements that could be written for each of these districts that would be you we need to have Eventually for a point where those could be drafted and crafted up and and decided I think we've got some Language that we could pull start to pull together related to The types of open spaces that would make sense in each district and can clarify that and start talking about some of the scales of those things Um, we've got some a language I think we could pull together in terms of the connectivity The types of street sections that we think would make some sense So yeah, we can we can And maybe and it may make it may make some sense. I'm just thinking out loud here. Apologize if it's noisy um, but it may make some sense to do that because The issues that you wrote up Ned and the issues that Dennis has, you know The the the capacity of the etc to build out because of the water sewer issue. That's that's a structural Thing that is independent of the regulations in a lot of ways I mean, you know, you can enable regulations to allow really high density, but if you don't have the water Yeah, it's not gonna happen. So that's not something that the regulations need to really At this point need to really worry about these other things though. I would contend are You know regardless of what you decide relative to the build out is really critical like the paths the walkway connections the I just see you bringing I mean, I agree because I just see you bringing A lot of months clicked by and we keep talking about hypotheticals and at some point I think the planning commission and the community and Staff need to sit down and talk about do we want buildings up against the street or we want to pull I mean like we have to we've talked about the options and the five different ways you can do it Or however many there are but we never seen the land So I think some of us are anxious to get into before too much time passes Maybe doing some of that lifting and seeing what what it looks like and then to john's point How would that have affected some of our Current projects or how will it affect maybe some of the undeveloped spaces I just want to remind everybody January is all Looking at the budget and then February is cutting and I've sat through these cycles twice So part of the problem with Dennis is the pressure on him about the budget. I think we need to remember that Yeah, but also for this whole thing january for these people january The top of the staff and all the department heads are just absolutely focused on the budget But that's outside of this process and I kind of will let that happen I mean, that's a yearly thing that happens every year and that really shouldn't impact the work we're doing I mean, we're we've got a pretty it's our we're not too aggressive on our schedule Okay, so I maybe you know if it if the playing commission would indulge me a chance to chat with staff about that But I there's I I can I'm again just sort of off the cuff here. I think there may be some logic to Cooking into this next couple months A maybe a break in the in the this process because I think we've got we've it has been helpful I mean, I hope it's been helpful helpful for us for sure And and that's part of this thing. I said we have to understand too where you guys are coming from But maybe it is worth taking a little bit of a break in terms of this process with the planning commission to allow us to sort of Advance some of these dimensional things the connectivity things the open space elements And and cook those into maybe the the district boundaries and the frame the Purpose statements and some of those elements and sort of cook those into this outline And bring those to you guys to end with some testing relative to maybe we get with staff a good example or two We can sort of see how it would have done if we applied some of these things Then you can respond to that We do need to be careful about because it gives you know one of the challenging things with form-based code is all kind of Integrated together, right? So if you guys decide that you like building envelopes that are 250 feet off the road then the forms are going to come along with that are going to have to follow So we just need to be careful about letting that get too far But I think as a first blush and as a way of of getting you guys a little maybe a little more meat To sort of look at and respond to What do you think Sharon is that reasonable? We could talk about the timing of it, but certainly start talking about like the open space. We could define those open space areas and types We can define the street cross-sections. We can do all that for discussion. Yeah, I think so Yeah, I really hear that you're ready to start um Rolling up your shirt sleeves and I think that's a fair Really fair observation. So we'll work on that Yeah, anybody disagree and hopefully I'm not speaking out of turn I don't disagree. I I am personally in in getting an awful lot out of this this process I mean there's just for me to understand all the different options that come along with Each piece of it that you guys have been going through has been very useful As far as putting it to the test, you know, I'm ready to try that at any time also, but I think the two things Are important to be doing together just like we're doing so I think you're getting I think I would agree. I think but the good news is we're kind of at a logical spot where we've kind of covered some of the ground plane Stuff and this you know the you know, what's going on within the districts I think we've got a good starting point for that and we you know, all of this was going to happen anyway It's just a matter of when so yeah, this project was supposed to go until next, you know, uh September right so this first part to april was going to give us to this kind of background stuff then between april and September was going to be churning through these things So what we're really talking about is taking some of that work that was going to happen in june july or whatever and moving it up To get work through that with you and then get back to this for the we definitely need to have this type of conversation with architecture We I just don't feel comfortable at this point even recommending anything in terms of regulations until we have a conversation about it and then Do that do that testing Coding through outlining part for that and then the last part will be to bring it all together into something that sort of makes Some sense, so I can see that working. Yeah, let's let you go back with staff and yeah It's all the same time and that also has to kind of reorganize. Yeah work with your schedules and ability to actually So, um, talk to the chair not me Yeah And what he just said before this last comment the vision We need to he said to work on the vision this district boundaries purpose statements for those districts Open space districts streets, um, you know regulations for that regulations are independent of the vision of Dennis Lutz and we're talking about paths walkways You you answered my question while I came to this meeting. That was I wrote it down That's me her beta, but she's impressive. Yeah, that's the objective That that's what I wanted to know. That's the objective. Okay. You just said it. Thank you So, yeah, I think that would be you know, we can work with staff to kind of come up with a restructure this a little bit But I I think that could work Appreciate the input So a key thing for me is the connectivity to to trails and I don't think that gully across from price job So I'm wondering how we can persuades That they're they've got that flat spot that we all have our eyes on So I'm wondering what we can offer them in in return Is there a sabric or or hendos remaining lands? Yeah, a little bit of both. It's a little bit of both actually I think So are we willing to let them do some infill development? In exchange for some access is my question and is that kind of where we're going with this process? I think um, that's a too specific of a question and what I think I hear you asking Are there tools in the toolbox that we either have or could develop that would allow us to negotiate with landowners to get something If we give something That's what I heard Very good our English major Because I think one of the big Things for that area is is recreation and I I think the in Essex would love to have an entryway to the trails and those trails Once get into matthew town forest. It's not that hard to get to soxson hill Right It you can cross a couple roads, but there's there's public trails all the way so I think that'd be great and I'm looking for a way to do that. So as david said if we can have some tools in the toolbox to negotiate our vision Yeah, I think you know again the you know one of the one of the byproducts of this rezoning once it's Once it's adopted or finished coding it adopted etc etc is is a potentiality for upzoning You know in certain areas so that in terms of tools in toolbox Okay That's a tool in a toolbox and so if in in the process of rezoning it the The densities allowances go up and the open space requirements come down That's that's a potential outcome there and we have the other Um objectives So even though the open space goes down we we have some objectives to improve the quality of the yeah So instead of whatever whatever percent of open space sabre has I can at 30 percent It's it's a it's a huge percentage of open space, right? Instead of 30 percent it goes to 20 percent or 15 percent And the quip pro quo is that it comes to 15 percent with trail access To through their property. Okay. There's a public benefit That's worth 15 percent of field in my mind So, yeah, I think those are those again exactly that's I mean that is the purpose of this plan So that's good that it's actually having its intended function of having those conversations But again back to the conversation with ali I think there is you know, it would be really great if the town is sort of identifying at a town plan Slash recreation plan level those things too so that you know, I think we talked about at the beginning of this project I'm a big proponent of having all these things line up So that when a developer is kind of coming in they can go to the town plan and go to the rec plan They can go to the master plan they can go to the zoning and there's like Everybody speaking the same hymnal and it's not a question as to whether or not this Level of connectivity or this level of recreational access is important. It's and that gets back to our early discussion We're going to try and make all the maps line up In a right away. Are we going to just let them go their own cadence? Well, what's the question earlier? It's about the amending the town plan and obviously You know, that's a or what do they how often the town plan gets amended and stuff And those are not easy things to deal with but the good news is this is by reference in the town plan Right, well, and we had recommended is once we finalize the master plan Especially if it's used as a guide that the town plan be amended to at least append it or reference it Yeah, so that will help that and then I'm assuming, you know, the recreation plan would could be amended if if we You knew the status of that Um, and I believe they're starting to start this next year. Yeah, the um parks and rec have had a recreation needs assessment That has been overdue So it's pretty stale and that is going to be when ali kicks it off a great process for you tom, you know, because you like you're into all this You know, obviously and So because you love you, you know, you're such a trail guy that I think you would love to participate And bring the things that you're saying here Actually, you're on the list Yeah, and also the conservation and trails committee, you know, there are other players in this So we have other resources They good, you know, the issue with the town plan up, you know, when the town plan is amended to reflect Whatever comes out of this process and you want to make sure it sort of lines up back to your point That's also the point where the the needs assessment could be referenced as well So that you go back again back to that idea of everything sort of lines up. So there's a there's this nice sort of clarity that kind of emerges from that when somebody's proposing a development and they're Surprised by the fact that they're you're being asked to do a rec plan. It's like, well You shouldn't be because it's in every one of our documents including the zoning and it's a pretty clear as that's clarity for people All right, so mark and Sharon, do you have anything else for us? Nope. That's all we have tonight That was I agree that the process what she said the process is definitely It's a good one Anybody have anything else for So I have other business or is that what you're going to do this? Okay All right, um, thank you both very much. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you miss kelly So other business, um, I don't know if you guys had a chance to look at the um letter that was on your google Which unfortunately the opening paragraph which might be what you only looked at was wrong So and I apologize for that. That was my hit. Um So normally I come to you before those like folks can can I ask you guys to Can I ask you guys to step outside just because we're on We're on camera and can hear you go ahead. So, um Normally when I have an application that goes to the zoning board for temporary use or unspecified use I I run it by you to see, you know, if if you want to give it a nod Do you want to see it in its entirety right now? Uh 134 browns river road was approved For conditional use um for a home occupation not on the planning commission table But they also proposed a a food truck And that was also approved Um, and I've told you a few times conditional use was amended a few years ago so that they can look at site plan stuff Which they did on this application and they wanted the food cart closer to the road and It was pushed back. It has to be 50 feet. It has to meet the setback requirement and um So I guess my specific question to you is I had the zoning board meeting first So I wasn't able to give them input to see what you wanted to do. So my question is Did you have a chance to review the findings and conditions? Um Do you want to see it as an application? For the temporary use, um, or do you want to just review it this way to let you know, um It was a shared driveway and the the neighbors were okay with it We're okay with it and we put a condition in to about that. I need to review the deed It's not used to this level of review from zba. I mean my biggest concern on this is it's a Killer corner. Yeah, it's it's not a very good place at all. Yeah, it's not a very good place 50 miles an hour or two Yeah And in public works, um, it's it's regulated by the state, which is why they got the state sign off. Um And again, I'm happy to come forward if you guys want to review it. Um The home occupation is approved. So that's off your table Um, so people will be coming in and out for the home occupation Um aspect of it So it would strictly be for the Yeah, my my only concern is Yeah, I'm a little Worried that the you know, they're offering is only sort of an ongoing food service and and I worry about Well handicap access. I don't have any idea if you're having enough to park and you have tables You know, how do you get your wheelchair to the food cart? You know is that stuff been looked at as if been considered or you know, because it's a public It's going to be a public facility And so they run into a different set of rules in my opinion And it was not discussed for Handicap accessibility. Um, it it was only discussed for summer summer months. Well, I think handicap people a lot in the summer How often does it get reviewed? I agree a yearly thing. So there was a condition for I think I threw a condition in there that said That it would go back if there's issues. Let me just find that. Yeah If parking on the road becomes an issue that is not resolved The sony the zoning ministry shall suspend the permits and require the applicant to return to the zba for a final decision so It's just one of those things that on the face Seems easy enough, but my experience is if they become super popular That's what I was worried about. Yeah, right major says 40 meals a day And I'm thinking well, what is the way this is set up currently in the map and and the whole setup Does not allow them any kind of growth Like if they started to all of a sudden grow and become hugely popular Well, so we I did ask them if they wanted to put a cap on and use 40 as the cap for meals Um, the zoning board didn't feel a cap was necessary. They and the landowners Was saying that it's just her she can only cook so much and she can only put out so much So it's not going to be an issue. She did have a previous Home occupation for the same thing at a different location in sx. There were no issues But I'm I'm happy. I mean, I'm happy for it to come before you if you want to discuss it I was thinking I was going to put it on consent But it sounds like it wouldn't be because You have you may have other Questions to talk about that. We usually don't do for consent Um, so that means there's two bodies reviewing this then so we have so temporary only for the temporary use, right? I know the home occupations done. Yeah, that's done So, um, if it were to come to you and if you denied the food food truck Then she would just do the home occupation full time out of her home So so when she's doing the food truck, she won't have people come to pick up in her house and also Um, they'd be taking out if they didn't want to stay they'd take out from the car So That's already been done by states already signed off on that state signed off already, so we Is that because 128 is uh State highway, yeah, that's why it's so poorly She did ask She did ask if that if she could use, you know, get another driveway Like the state won't give you another driver because it's And the reason they made, you know, the the 50 foot Not, you know, they they tried to argue they want it close to the road to get visibility So people would know and um, it's like It came up the travel was too fast. I think it's it's 40 miles per hour, but people do 50. It's 50 there. Yeah, they do Yeah, but I she said it was 40. It's the no, it's a recommended 40 on the corner It's it's a yellow sign. It's a 50 mile zone all the way around there. Yeah So I don't know. I'm I don't know that we need to To review it as a as an application. I'm just voicing my concerns. I think There's things about having that truck out there that I don't think it's not right I think that if we want to If you guys want are not so comfortable and want to have put Finer eyes on it. We should have it come in as an application. It can't be it wouldn't be consent So you can discuss some further things, but what are we going to discuss? So I mean we're not going to say there's you know, there's corner. There's not sight distance or something I could be the traffic engineer Hey, Tom's right. There's nothing we can jump on here necessarily at this point Do you feel like you can you can put the teeth you need into it and have the oversight? You need to make sure that it's safe and well I think that the biggest concern from all the departments where people are going to stop on the road and it's fast and So definitely well So I think that that once those comments start coming my way, you know, they I give them a violation I shut them. They can appeal my decision to the zoning You know, which is why I captured that condition to just say I won't stop. I'll just say You need to come back and they can then take their approval away If they were going to put up no parking signs on the highway, they're going to put up no parking signs Yeah, you know some sort of physical barrier, maybe Well, they're thinking about putting up a fence or boulders, but They're going to work with staff on that too The the downside to that is Then cars are parking It sounds like you've got the teeth you need to Technically I did all other temporary uses for any proposed Uses proposed for any site in a calendar year So we require conditional use approval from the board of adjustment and site plan approval by the planning commission under section six again in the past we've Passed it by you so I'm comfortable with your what you've put in but I'll defer I as am I I just think I just wanted to voice my concerns That's all done because it's really nothing else anybody else dying to see this thing I have same concerns It's already Okay, all right, so we're not going to see it so very good. Good job. Thanks for bringing it to us. Thank you It's there they'll see him in front of that house anything else Well, it is with great pleasure that I would accept a motion to adjourn so moved By shoe seconded by mr. Ferland all those in favor They pose