 Purpose is something that is essential to us if we pay attention to it and we have evidence that not always the societies and businesses, normalizations have the awareness and consciousness to put it into their agenda. People wake up in the morning without purpose. Hey everyone welcome to simulation I'm your host Alan Sokian. We're on site at the beautiful transformative technology conference for our second partnership with them. We are now going to be speaking with Agnes Stebe. Hello. Hi. Thanks for coming on the program. We got the look. We got the look. You already know it's coming. All the good questions. I'm ready for all of them. Are you? Okay. All right. How about are we really all one? As you say that's the word to categorize like to characterize exactly that. One is the number one and that's how we actually are united. I mean oneness is something that we rediscover. I mean evolution always been one and now we kind of lost it on the way of evolution and now we're kind of coming back to our true nature. And there's so many ways to go from there. How about how do you know that we are one? There are multiple ways how we experience oneness. Let's take an example with kids. You would see yourself being mirrored back to yourself every day, especially because the kids they are acquiring or they're sometimes acquiring something that actually is helpful and sometimes it is kind of imposed on them. But generally because they are presumably neutral to the world. They are good mirrors and then you would see yourself in those mirrors and therefore you would see actually that there is no way for you to escape yourself. And the same mirrors they are just a little bit more foggy when you speak with the adults. But then kids are the best to remind you here you are and we are here together and we're gonna be together. And this is how I see that we constantly reflect back on each other the oneness through that kind of mirroring. Okay. Children acting as mirrors and mirrors being part of the oneness. I'm so interested in this. What is a mirror? Mirror I mean if we speak about the one that we look into it's a reflection of ourselves and I believe how our innate nature reflects us on ourselves is through the other people our relationships, our connection with them. All the other aspects that we experience that's I would say is this conscious mirroring that we actually experience. And unfortunately those mirrors are quite neutral. So they mirror what they see or what is in front of them which means if we are good people it mirrors more good and if we are bad people it mirrors more of that. So that's why we also see this cultural differences in different locations and community differences depends on what is there that has been mirrored and amplified unfortunately. Is this like when someone walks up to me and says like are you okay? You know maybe I am you know feeling sad or maybe someone says that you know you look anxious. There are two possibilities in all of these situations because people also reflect their own inner world outside. That's the projection side of it. So sometimes it's a mirror of how I'm actually feeling and then sometimes it's their projection of their own inner world. So here we go. How do you discern? Here we go. We don't need to. Okay. Okay. Because we are one. Okay. We don't need to. We don't need to because self reflection is exactly the same as a projection. It is. We project ourselves to the mirror so that the mirror can actually reflect back on us. And because we are one it's loop and it's constantly continuously the interaction can be separable. So when someone walks up to me and says you know are you anxious right now? It's both a lesson for them in projection as well as a lesson for me in mere understanding that I'm actually anxious. Actually for you it's a signal that most likely you would need to take it as an invitation to speak about their anxiousness because they are projecting it out and you are the mirror in that case. Oh, oh interesting. So there'd be an invitation for me to ask them. Are you anxious? You would know that they are because they are asking. If I am. But what if I'm actually like expressing like anxiety? If it's like super visible. Okay. Yeah. And it is like super unquestionable. Then they most likely won't even ask. They would just say okay. What can I do for you? Yeah. Yeah. If it's got it. Yes. Yes. But then if it's just like a borderline there's more expressing this projection because they feel themselves and they have noticed those tiny details that are expressing in you potentially to provoke them to think about it and just to reconfirm that for them. Wow. Isn't that amazing? That's mind blowing. Yeah, it is. Interesting. So when things come up like a mirror like that it's an invitation for us to inquire about the projection of what was coming up at that time because it's a non clearly like it's not like someone's like crying sad. Okay. Interesting. Good. I'm glad to walk down that. Okay. Okay. How about the overall purpose of creation? Purpose is necessary. Otherwise there is this lack of direction. And with people who don't have a direction they go nowhere and they go in cycles and actually quite destructive can be. So when we speak about the individual lives, organizations, businesses, societies, countries, there has to be a purpose. And we've seen an evidence that there might be companies started and they end because they don't really they don't have a clear purpose. So they when I speak with my students at the business school and asked this very fundamental question for the business school, what's business? So students naturally, conventionally answer, oh, that's making money. I say, really? Then tell me what's money? And there is silence in the audience. And then that's obvious. Money is money. And this is how I see that the cultural projection on what is money as an instrument and business as from my perspective as the organized value creation is not communicated even to the business school students, which is the essential birth of the business entrepreneurship. So therefore, I think purpose is something that is essential to us if we pay attention to it. Yeah. And we have evidence that not always the societies and businesses organizations have the awareness and consciousness to put it into their agenda. People wake up in the morning without purpose. They do their connection to the virtual world. They do their routines without the purpose. The purpose is get through the day. At like the minimum that some people have some people don't. And then that's the end of their lives. But generally, yes, purpose, I think it's what is the first step towards enlightenment. So because you kind of feel that you are belonging to something to the unity of the people and the mankind. And then is there a purpose for creation? Creation in itself is part of our nature. So this is how we have created things around us. And I think why we are here at this conference right now is because we have faced that things created around us have excelled further away from or they have been developed with the pace that is much faster, that is ahead of our own human evolution. And I think this is what the time is when we are start to realize that we actually have to create something for ourselves. And actually, we have to create more of a self awareness and more connection to whatever we call it consciousness, oneness, universe, and deal with that because there is this huge gap. And because technologies are excelling faster because of their capabilities, we are getting this gap too wide. And that's also one of the reasons why we have this backfires. Backfires for the different age groups starting from the kids addiction from the technologies and ending with the adults addicted to money, for example. Why would creation make this reality? Reality is as it is. Reality is and then we use our capacity with given power of our brains to interpret it to the best of our abilities. And if we speak about creation as such, I think this is how our bodies creates energy from producing food. I mean, the creation is kind of the essential mini process that is just ongoing for everything at the same time. And then when people attach the word creativity, we mean something to create out of nonexistent, create something that never existed. And then there is something new. But I think creation, it's a part of the whole life cycle, which happens all the time the students that that was in that was in Latin, the cells recreate themselves all the time. So this kind of a creation is just just happening all the time. So people just added this layer that okay, we are sometimes more creative, sometimes less creative, they judge it by the output. But I think this creation is just naturally flowing all the time. And right now we are embedded in this creation. And we find ourselves at this point where it seems like the most upstream issue is our illusion of separation. Do you feel like that's the most upstream issue is the illusion of separation from the one? Well, yeah, that could be one way to describe it. Delusions are part like huge part of our experiences. Even if we look back to our brains, people predominantly think they are great. They are as great as they are. If you look at the optical illusions you have or many people had experiences with seeing different illusions in the books or somewhere else. And most of them have nothing to do with illusions. It's reality. It's the illusion because the brain cannot process it the way how it's projected on it. And that's why it's the the people kind of use this word of illusion. But essentially it's it, we can call them brain failures, because the brain cannot process it the way how it's given to it. So therefore, yes, delusions about separateness, and creating more awareness of who we really are. And that's what the spiritual speakers always speak about this. Okay, so this most upstream issue of our illusion of separateness is also actually this greatest teaching function of us understanding the truth of reality, the oneness. Right. Reality is again the construct that we've created. And we try to make meaning or create the meaning around this perception of reality. And then we can look at the technologies, the virtual reality, the augmented reality, extended reality. But then what about human reality? Yeah, what the humans experience as the reality for themselves, including the example that I just explained about the brain, so-called failures, that's the reality for humans. And this discussion about brain being counter part counter part to interpreting the reality to the degree that it's capable. And then if the brain experiences limitations, then the reality is limited. So that's an, I think, a way of understanding ourselves better in relation with the reality, as we know it. How has your drop rejoined the ocean feelings of interconnectedness or ego loss or unconditional love, deep presence, any of these? How have you experienced your drop rejoining the ocean? I'm still in a way experiencing like many of those things. And one of the most tangible or most visible things for myself, I've listed on my five year goals, but it doesn't matter like five or one or two, it's just the essence of it to become a true forgiver. That's the goal. It's very clearly in my mind, and in my awareness, and in my, let's say, direction towards it, because we know forgiveness is only for the person who is forgiving himself. I mean, forgiveness is given conceptually to the other person. But actually, the salvation is for the person who is who is forgiving. And I think that's the way one of the practices, how to get back the balance in your life. So if, if you maybe, you know, hit me with a ruler or something, you know, and I'm like, Oh, and then you go, I'm sorry, will you forgive me? And I say, yes, that forgiveness is for you. This was very kind of example that might not describe the full potential of forgiveness. Because most of the times when people really suffer is when they don't forgive or cannot forgive somebody who have done like a larger harm. Like that's something that is hard to forgive. Let's do an example like a very serious, like maybe just like cheating in a monogamous relationship. Maybe is that a good example? Or what would be a good one? Oh, there are stealing from someone. I mean, what they're all are bad examples, because that's bad behavior. But in terms of example, let's say a scientist invented a new thing and didn't patent it and just had told somebody about this invention. And then the other person just took it and patented it and took it as his own. Okay. How would you feel if that's how would I feel if if I told you? Yeah, you invented something. Oh my gosh, this is so interesting. Because most recently with these feelings of oneness, I just it's almost this is so hard to say but technically, it's all for us. It's all one. So then it's like perfectly fine. You're good with that. Okay, but most of the people still or large like portion of people would still be very disappointed, like angry, like, okay, how come and even if that person might be a good friend, that's even like hurts more. And then the person who invented actually, but now is disappointed and angry brings that feeling all the way all the life in the person, which means there is no space for creation. There is no space for love. There is no space for playfulness. There is no space. All the space is taken with the rumination around that anger. Yes, that thing. Okay, so then if I'm doing the classic anger around the the stealing of intellectual property, let's say, then my whole life becomes consumed with that. Okay. And then you ask me for forgiveness. Is that what's happening? No, no. Then what then what? Yeah, then what? Yeah, the magic lies in the fact that it doesn't require an external thing. I ask myself for forgiveness. Even further than that, you just do forgive. I do forgiveness. Yes, that's internal forgiveness that that inner process when you take that whichever form works for people that can be different. But then the person who invented and then was disappointed, just does this practice on himself or herself saying that happened. And I forgive that person for what the person did. And that forgiveness ends the situation. And the anger is gone. And the frustration is gone. If it's true forgiveness, which means I forgive that person for what the person did. And I like, like the way how you responded because if it's really oneness, that forgiveness makes sense right there, like without even having that experience of the anger. But when that experience of the anger has happened, then the day when the person forgives internally, it has almost nothing to do with external external can be before that after that. But the essential point of release of that unwanted energy or unwanted stored energy, which goes nowhere to the waste question if we forgive the liar, cheater, stealer, etc. Then it happens again, does it not? That's a conventional way of thinking it's not it doesn't happen again. Then they wake up and they say, Oh, I've been forgiven. I shall no longer lie cheaters deal. Again, we can we can have the spectrum of reactions in this question. But again, if we speak from the perspective of oneness, yes, they feel like, Oh, this is what's possible, forgiveness is possible. Okay, so okay, so upon being forgiven, and let's say immediately after committing some sort of malevolent act, then the process of I forgive that ignorant act, the act of ignorance, they do not know upon which they cause harm it as you affecting the one by doing so. Okay, I forgive. And then you yourself realize, Oh, I was forgiven for that malevolent act. I must make sure I do not commit such malevolence again. That is hopefully the most optimistic. That's also it has this flavor of analytical rational twist to it. But then on emotional innate human level, it's more like, What was that? I never experienced this. I never had this. This is something new. And then then the body reacts to it like it's pleasurable, like I got this. He forgave me for this. And then they become aware of that existence of forgiveness that we might not have happened ever in their lives. And this is this is the provoke provoked in their bodies some biochemical reaction. And then the brain neurons like say, Oh, this was an interesting new circuit in our brains. Let's and then once they experienced it once, they will be more aware of the next time and the more aware of the next time and then more people will forgive for what they whatever they do. They would be more and more awareness of forgiveness being all around them. So they would be like questioning themselves. I like your depth dive into the feeling the visceral emotion that then arises when that forgiveness happens. Does it ever feel as though the process sounds like forgiveness in many ways. So this unconditional love that you have an unconditional love even in the act of someone doing something malevolent, let's say, does it ever feel as though then that those with unconditional love may be conquered by those choose to technically everything can happen. Depends on situation and everything else. But if we go this way, which you just described, we very quickly come to the point that openness and unconditional love is the strongest fundamental step on. So people when they realize that this person has that power of being and sharing unconditional love, which is inaccessible for the other person. So the first impression will be okay, I will take advantage because this is just this lame person loving everyone, I will take something. And then they realize it's very quickly that this is that end for them, because that person's going to be having this unconditional love forever. Yeah, and they're not getting triggered by. And yeah, and it's like they're not in a game. Yeah. And those those are short term games. What is interesting? Okay, so so so this question is in a sense, it is has some sort of a basis in in fear in a way. Yes. And so this is very interesting because it's as though it's like, enlighten ourselves to all love. And then at the same time, there's this like, but if those that are only love driven, will we not be taken over by those who don't care whatsoever about love and just want all of it for themselves to be the gods themselves, etc. So there is but holding space for that absolute highest reality, though, the one where it is all unconditional love, that's the future that all of us know is possible, and that we want to guide towards that future. When collapse towards that, probably future is just the concept. Because of the time, the time that appeared with a stick in the ground, and shadow moving, and people say, Oh, we can follow this. So therefore, the future is a concept for our consciousness. Because in consciousness doesn't exist. It's all at the same time. So which means if we project in a future, we actually put a little bit of the boundary on ourselves. So the love is now, and it's fully accessible. And I think just by giving more and more reference to it, and more and more stepping on it, it just is and evolves. And also it becomes more accessible for those people. So I believe there isn't that kind of a big fight. Love versus hate is just that there is a love versus less awareness of love, or less experience of the love, which might be not experienced on this bio physiological level, for whatever reasons, it was absent of the experiences. But I think that's that's what is and then is the question of accessing it. So we can be deeply immersed into the feelings of interconnectedness and unconditional love on a moment to moment basis, we can be present with that. Yet there is some sort of a future that is being built, right? Time being the solution. Yes, yes, yes, of course. Yet there is some sort of a future that is coming in this next moment, and then that next one, and then we're just slowly getting to those moments. There will be a moment when this interview and etc. It's still a projection of our mind, our rational mind, have the notion of time. So if you look to their primitive brains and that that we share with animals, so they don't have this future and past kind of thing, it's the moment, okay, I'm hungry, I'm angry, I'm disturbed, I'm sleeping on that kind of thing. So if we really go down into or go into or open us up for the consciousness as it's in purest form, the sequencing of the events is the product of our brain, intellectual part of the brain that has the time as the construct and then attach the events in the sequence. And that's the way how being be training it. So therefore, it might sound like a very provocative, but it has different nature on the same reality. So we might actually use it for when it's necessary. And we might not use it where it's maybe not that applicable. But so far, brains have been trained to apply to almost every situation. Okay, so we do use it to schedule this interview. Right. Okay. But then it's also the complete illusion of it, no beginning, no end, no separation, just all one. And that we then, like you gave the example of the animals, the states of your dog's consciousness. So is the dog never ever contemplating death or ever? I don't believe I never had a conversation with any dog so far. You don't talk to dogs yet? I can just gave up by just I just bad at interpreting what they were talking about talking to trees earlier today as well. So we've been all over the spectrum. That's really good. Yes. Yes. I mean, and again, it's so interesting people talk to themselves in their heads. And why not to everything else? Yeah, how do you how do you execute your goals? Because if there is no time? Yeah, here is speaking about goals, another contract. In my work on transformation, goal is danger. Goals are danger. Yes. What? Yes, ambition is danger. Ambition is not the goal. So ambition can have a form of a goal, or form of a direction. Okay, so how about direction? That's a completely different than the goal. Yes, but I heard that goal is okay, as long as there's no attachment to when it happens, that's that's more direction, right? Within the paradigm that goals are necessary. There is there is a theory goal setting theory, for example. But then the limitation of all of that work that implies goal implies that there will be a moment when you reach it. And then what? And they have been studies and they have been practical examples with milestones. And now you put the milestones on the line on the line that is leading somewhere. Okay, this direction. And in the work that I do about typology of change, there are three types of three types of change change. Yes. First type is transactional. So it's a one time change, you just exchange your money for a gym membership, or whatever, or for the conference with it, which might not say anything about you going to the conference or going to the gym, which is the transaction with a good intention to actually do a change in your life transaction one time thing. Second is transition transition. So you transition is like a line. So the first one is like a dot. The other is like a line. It has a duration. There's a period of time. Okay, so you might say I'm gonna go I'm actually using this gym for a year. Okay, cool. And you actually go three times a week. Yeah, okay. And expectation is that after a year, you will continue and you resubscribe. But that's again, that's a that's a delusion that it's gonna happen. It's just a hope. But what it says to our psychology, we put ourselves, let's say in a mental jail for a year and waiting for the release date to come. And we go very consistently three days a week because we are consistent with the commitment. But psychologically, we wait because we know there will be end to it. And that's why goals show something that is like a relief. And you can have a wait for it. Therefore, the third type of change is transformational, which means you remove and that's the secret. Which I'm telling formation is the secret. No, the secret what differs from the transition, which is a line to transformation, you remove the endpoint and becomes an arrow, which points in the direction where you want to go. And it's endless. And the endless requires identity change because you need to go back to yourself and ask yourself, who do I need to become to actually walk this arrow all the time? Let me give you a very trivial example, especially in any countries which do smoke. And prior to this example, you we have the dot, which is the transaction, we have a line, which has some sort of a goal and like an endpoint where you feel relief that you've achieved the goal. Otherwise, I can just change it into an infinite arrow, an infinite arrow towards the flowering of consciousness. And very and then I can just become that I go to self work and I become that it real growth. It requires you to revisit yourself your identity. Imagine you are a book and describes your status today. And if that, for example, for one person includes I, I do smoke 10 cigarettes a day. That's what's written in the book today. And that really represents the reality of that person. And on January 1st, the person makes a new year's resolution. I'm not gonna do it anymore. I'm not gonna smoke. And he or she does it already four or five consecutive years. I'm not gonna be smoking. And that happens every January. So now, if the person says, I'm not gonna smoke for three months, with a hope that after the three months, I will just create this new habit and it will gonna last. This is what the trap is. So the psychological trap of waiting for the three months and actually come like consistently doing it. But then psychology didn't change because there wasn't need to revisit your identity and rewrite that sentence in your book. What is required and what and the difference is if you say this is an arrow, which means for forever, and you cannot be in conflict with yourself for forever. So you need to revisit that's also relies on a theory of cognitive dissonance. Your attitudes and your behavior have to be consistent. So in that case, if you see no endpoint, there is no thing to grab on. That's this is why so many people do cold turkey styles of quitting where they just decide to cessation of smoking for life, direct arrow. And then that's this whole cold turkey thing. I don't know about cold turkeys. That's what we this is what it's called. You said just a decision sometimes that people make to stop. I call it chess type of mindset. Yes. Black and white, black and white. So you either or you play black or you play white. You either smoke or you stop completely. Wait a minute. Okay. You either smoke. What's the opposite? You don't. You don't because when you phrase it, you stop, you imply you you did. And when you apply you did your reference to the past and against time construct. Your identity is the book today. Okay, either it has the sentence or it doesn't have the sentence. And it there is no point to referring back to the history because it's not you anymore, which I say I don't smoke. Yeah. And then that's what I wrote. I don't that word specifically I do not. Yeah. Currently, which does not include any time. It only talks about present identity. Identity. It's identity question. And the way to trigger the identity is to remove the goal. I don't say that it's wrong. I just say if we want sustainable change, which is transformation, that's more successful goals have been proven to be successful to be achieved. But then we have seen that some people backfire after that and some people are where to back and so the goal is still limitation in time. Arrow is endless. So that's why it's very transformational. And then again, coming back to the smoking example that I wanted to say, imagine this arrow, and then every single decision which is a transaction has to land on that arrow as you move every day and you have the same friends offering you cigarettes and then you have this meetings and everything else and your habits are still triggering you but you're just making decisions. Small decision every time. No, and you look at your book. I don't smoke. I don't smoke. And you show to the other people to show the other people the way. Look, I did. Oh, really? Yeah. It's your book. Oh, yeah, it's your book. And we know we sometimes can be weak. That's our nature. And there might be a bad day. You had a dispute with a colleague and you have maybe damaged your car, whatever has happened, flat tire or something. And you stand there and there is, for example, you have the flat tire for a car and there is this guy is coming to pick up your car and they stand and look what to do and they start to smoke and you feel bad, like stressed. And you think, okay, this is so exceptional. So this is the only flat tire in the last 10 years. And this is I'm missing my flight and like all of this crazy and they have the cigarettes right around and and that is very tempting at that moment. But the here is the truth. As soon as you take that cigarette, that decision don't land on the arrow, it lands slightly near and geometrically, it means a different arrow. So you land yourself on a different arrow, which leads to a different endpoint. So you're not actually heading where you wanted, but you slightly one degree, two degrees off your track, which means your identity is somewhere else in the future. And that's how it's different. People brains actually are so smart that they create delusions that the brain says, I'm controlling everything, you just do this, and then we will revert, we will revert you back to the arrow. But that's not how the geometry works. You automatically learn a different one. And that's the delusion. And why brains do it? Because brains don't want to put a lot of cognitive effort into many things, just avoid pain, more pleasure. That's the formula of the brain. But brains are, as we discussed, they're not perfect. So we need to understand them better and also understand that it's just a one part of our body. And there's a subconscious brain. There are neural networks in the heart and the gut and so forth. We have to end the supremacy of the logical brain. We set a directional trajectory towards our identity being something like wanting the highest possible, not even wanting, but just towards the direction towards the highest possible state of what this could be, this creation could be. And there may be some discourse that happens to figure out between people to figure out what is that exact highest possible place for creation to be. Any time we the the circumstances like you gave may cause our confidence to waver slightly from that highest possible. And if we do decide to, in a sense, succumb to that, those circumstances, that then our arrow of direction changes very, very so slightly because that transactional moment is plotted on a one degree, let's say difference. This is so interesting because I view it so much on this kind of like, like if like the like your like your x axis being something like like, like time and your y axis being something like, like your highest, highest potential, like I'm always trying to help people like go like this, like up as fast as possible towards your highest potential in the least amount of time. But like a lot of the times we experience things that just cause us to go, yeah, just like this way. Right. And by the time you die, you're just like, shit, I haven't done what I want, what was blueprinted to do. And so that kind of speaks to these like bifurcating moments that happen all like all the time that like, you know, you're on your trajectory and you may be wrote in your book that you don't do something. And then given the conditions may be, you know, rather than going this way, you go a little bit this way, because you chose at that moment. And then, yeah, go ahead. There is a possibility for always to have an arrow that deviates from the original one. But that decision has to be very deliberate. And again, it has to be with intention to have it to have a new arrow. Let me give you an example. So people buy the membership of to the gym, they go to the gym, and then they get pair and they get fitter. And then they meet somebody who says, Oh, you do so well, that specific thing. Why don't you become a semi professional? And that's a new career. That's a new opportunity. And if the person feels good about that, then they say, Okay, my new like old arrow was be fit. And the new arrow is to do semi professional activities. So they at that point, they divert from that arrow, because they don't want to be in the end just fit. They want to be a semi professional athlete. And that's what's perfectly fine. But that uncovers the difference between the very firm redirection and these small tempting moments that can happen. Yes. Okay, yes. So the yeah, there's the at the bifurcating moments, it's not only towards the like the temp, the tempted to like distractions that can happen away from your highest, but it can actually potentially the bifurcations can be like a mentor that gives you really good advice that you take and then it rockets you forward stuff like that. Same thing, same thing. And maybe just to add a little bit, the arrow usually is perceived to point away from us. The time arrow usually points away from us, the future is in front, the history is at the back. But essentially if we speak about oneness, yeah, you know, the arrow actually points inwards, inwards, and it's endless inwards, endless inwards. So we are uncovering us ourselves and we are like pulling off the layers of conditioning and layers of unknown and doing doing this arrow arrow of our own being, who we are is actually inwards. And therefore, again, there, it's timeless. A timeless arrow of inward is potentially this purpose of the creation. Yes, this is how we get into our highest being, from which we create unimaginable things pretty much anything we need. Voila. There's, there's lots of joy is present right now. And it feels like it's due to the deeper and deeper process of uncovering the beautiful, silly, playful, fun game of truth of creation. Why it's so enlightening is because this is this is our nature. And we collectively together in this conversation and other conversations are get closer and closer. And we share. Yeah. Do you remember the movie Matrix? Oh my yes. Yes. Why do you bring it up? There will be matrix for coming out soon. Yes. But then I use in in my talks 30 seconds from the first matrix. Okay. The iconic moment when the first time Neo meets Morpheus. Yes. And Morpheus says, no one can be told what the matrix is. So therefore, no one also can be told what true nature of our being is. Yes. You can only see it for yourself. Here is the blue pill. Here is the red pill. You take the blue pill. You wake up in the morning, believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill. The story ends. And I show how deep the rabbit hole goes. And the rabbit hole is the eternal arrow inwards. The rabbit hole is the eternal arrow inwards. Yeah. Yeah, maybe we can speak in a metaphors. Yeah, yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. It's already 20 years ago in one of the iconic movies. Yeah. And you would ask people around the globe. People would know this movie just like Fight Club, for example, and others. They know the scene. They know the pills. Yeah. How many of them would ever think what the rabbit hole means for themselves? Yeah. Yeah. So so it's a so then it's a it's a it's a decision of our identity in our book to say and decide that I will do the eternal arrow inward. Here it is. Again, will imply its future. Okay. Oh, I am doing the eternal arrow inward. I am. I am the eternal arrow inward. Yeah. Yeah. Just make it simple. Yeah, same simple works better. Yeah, it does. Yeah, I am the eternal arrow inward means you've taken the red pill and you're exploring the depth of the rabbit hole of creation. Exactly. As the French would say that that's the way it goes. That's the way it goes. The depth of the arrow inward is infinite. And that's the games. These are the infinite games of that we play. Exactly. That's why it's so enlightening because it never ends. You just keep on playing. Is there anything more beautiful than this creation? There? No, here. Yes. So the big nothing's more beautiful than that but here. Again, I was just playing with the place. What were you? Yeah. Yeah. So here and there. I played with time. Okay. And now we now we play with space. Okay. There and here. It's all here. It's all here. Yes. Yes. I'm sorry for that. Is is is there anything more beautiful than this infinite game? Not to my awareness. So it's safe to say that there's nothing more beautiful. It's impossible for something to be more beautiful than creation. Exactly. Because the rest is our delusion of seeking for something external that has been proven to be more easier to possibly get or create or access. Those are the shortcuts. Those are the short term pain and pleasure game. That's somewhat is part of our life because of our evolution. But then again, I think our human potential is much higher than that. And again, I think the most interesting part in this game right now is really if we look at the in young. Yes. Yes. It's one part is the pain and pleasure, which is a short termness of everything. Let me have this cigarette. Let me have this drink. Let me get this car. Let me get this house. Let me jump on my head into the pool and the eternity on the other hand, this infinite arrow in words, which actually is the essence of who we are. And those are the two forces, I think that is that both are maintained in our how many six pounds of jelly like mass with the biochemical signals that we trying to grasp understanding, which is our brain. And the more we become aware of our true nature and then our game becomes more in favor of the internal arrow, rather than the pain and pleasure which has been dominating for hundreds of years or thousands of years. So it's safe to say that then in indigeneity, the infinite arrow inward is dominant. And that in metropolis life, the pain, pleasure side is dominant. But potentially that's an oversimplification, but yeah. Oversimplifying, they have been with us. Always. Okay. Yes. It's just that we've been evolving to feel more of the infinite arrow because we were we were busy to feeding ourselves and surviving running out running away from big animals. And that's all about surviving and pleasure and pain that is constantly still maintained by our instinctive brain or the primitive brain, which predominantly reacts fast and therefore also wants for the fast pleasure or quickly avoid pain. And that's the short-termness or fastness of the primitive brain. And because we developed all this analytical rational and therefore also slow, actually giving us the possibility to play this other part more efficiently comparing maybe to the older days where we were busy of surviving. So I don't think we will ever transcend fully the pain and pleasure part because that's the biology. For example, we need food and then that's we that's the pleasure is through the carbon hydrants and that we get and that's fulfilled. So we need that. So the instrumentality of our body is built this way. It's it's but is this true though that you feel like you relate more with indigeneity on pain pleasure then then you relate with them on a complete interconnectedness with each other and their environment and source and infinite arrow inward because I relate with them more on that than I do on like oh looking for danger oh I'm under attack I need to you know leave we weren't there not me nor you. So it's difficult for me to say what exactly happened and now we are trying to project something on them where we never been. I would say we always had both. It was what I'm saying is that the portion of one or the other has changed depending on the circumstances. So if the circumstances for a particular period of time required more surviving clothing, housing, animals, disasters, they didn't have that possibly much time to contemplate on the inward arrow. Of course they did. Of course they did community, they did spiritual things and they did at a level of their comprehension in that period of time but I wouldn't say that they would be fully living this life maybe in some parts of the world where the danger was less so they were not triggered and the food was abundant. Of course it was like that. Or if their immediate return undergathers it's always abundance. It's never scarcity. There's always enough but you're right these are all thoughts about the yeah yeah um I'm also just curious about like where is things where are things going because it does feel like humanity is some sort of a biological bootloader for a digital super intelligence. How do you feel about that? I really think the way how we see reality is determined by the words that we use framing it. So we can say where all of us are going or well where this world is going and we can say oh what is coming actually. So what is the next thing that we're gonna experience? So it's not that we kind of are moving away towards a new world where there will be different things but actually what we are welcoming in our lives so actually we are here and things are coming. Innovations are coming. Experiences are coming. Self evolution is coming into our lives. And that also changes the perspective because if we need to go then we get into the rushing something into the speeding up into getting stressed about it. But if we are taking the perspective that our creation is coming to us that we are going after the creation. So then again we have a completely different perspective and then we choose what we welcome to what we welcome in. Yeah all the possibilities exist and then our present moment whatever we welcome in if we welcome in fear or love or if we welcome in the future of whatever future we welcome in future that we welcome in is where it ends up going. That's how the the game of words happen. Yes. So if I have a if I if there's so many different possibilities and I'm only welcoming in the highest possibility and if that highest possibility does not come if it doesn't include us becoming multi-planetary and then the asteroid comes that's the fear speaking is it really the fear speaking or is it foresight that you want the highest to be multi-planetary so that it can preserve remember the mirrors in the beginning of our conversation. Okay let's please. That's that fear is a good projector. Okay. Fear can create that there will be somebody throwing a stone in this window and we'll ruin all of this conversation or there might be the fear that there will be electricity off and we would need to re-record all of that. So the whole conversation about the collision of an asteroid the killing all of the dinosaurs this doesn't like you know this doesn't feel like it can happen again or essentially it doesn't have pretty much anything to do with our being here. I mean the way how we experience this is so interesting it doesn't it doesn't ever feel like there's like too much like lostness that can come from being so immersed in the present or in just unconditional love or just this infinite inward arrow where you where you just it never comes up that hey maybe we should get to another celestial body maybe it's interesting to explore that. That's perfectly fine if it has a good purpose remember we spoke about the purpose. Yeah the intention purpose and intention yes. Then we point the arrow towards getting there yes and it has a purpose then we go there. Okay yeah that's fine that's fine. Okay but not from a place of fear is what you're saying from the asteroid colliding but it's from a place of exploration or necessity or necessity. So instead of fear instead of telling the story about the asteroid we just say it's necessary to explore. We have discovered the necessity to find resources. Oh a necessity to find resources because we want a hundred billion. We want a hundred billion humans instead of just eight. We want sustain the possibility for everyone to experience fullest creativity and for that because we get more we need more resources. We need more resources. We are biological. Interesting. Okay so we want consciousness to experience it as many degrees of freedom as it can to pursue its own creative loving endeavoring and we need resources for that therefore there is necessity and therefore we become interplanetary interstellar and we explore rather than asteroid fear. Yeah that's so that's interesting. I much prefer that the story told that way as well. It makes more sense. It is more beautiful. Your body reacts more with pleasures to this alternative rather than the asteroid right? Yeah my butt reacted with a lot of pleasure feeling these two differences and learning about the best story to tell because this one is very inspirational. It's very heroic. It's like the your children their children generations of children will be able to endeavor into consciousness and pursue what is most creative and meaningful because there will be so many resources as we become interstellar and planetary. Yeah they might be this kind of specific cells that just fly autonomously in the space and there's like a one passenger thing and then you just like navigate it through the space anywhere you want within a speed and your kids are just exploring that and having this expansion of the mind beyond what can imagine what we can imagine today. Wow your consciousness goes completely different picture same the same arrow or that that could be also possibly comparable there was a goal avoid the asteroid and here is the arrow but like expanding the potential expanding there. It was interesting that you said that the arrow was in a sense pointed in the same direction but with a different story but then you corrected it and said it was a goal but like it is kind of but the oh oh maybe the arrow in this case is survival you see or thriving right yeah you see what brought my attention to correct myself because the asteroid is a point in time the line ends yeah where the asteroid hits it has a yes yes okay that's why there's this goal I see the line ends yeah it's a point yeah it's a point as a point it's somewhere there while expansion of our consciousness and exploration and more resources is endless interesting so we should we should be telling stories that are only about the this this infinite arrow and this infinite game of inward that are that have an intention of love and growth and prosperity and these more beautiful adventurous words rather than ones that are fearful we should never then tell the stories is that right there's a never never there's never a purpose for the fear story yeah you know we discussed the the mechanics of of our expansion through the arrow and pointing it but we don't need to use that metaphor every single time we speak about certain things but you were very rightly said that we would be projecting or directing the arrow towards love towards compassion towards expansion towards creativity and then as we are pointing it we just pull in the context and then speak about things provide things and explain things and encourage people and engage people by making it making that direction more into their awareness and they oh yeah that would that would make sense if we we went to this interstellar and the the resources and this new possibilities to expand our awareness about things that would be very enlightening that would be experience expansive experience and oh why not and then we point arrows towards novel spaceships novel technologies that actually are components on this journey and so you put those onto the arrow so you do the spaceships you do the AI you do the next thing you do the new materials and all of this land on the arrow on the arrow points towards interstellar life and then every everybody of every cell in the consciousness says wow interesting okay okay i i i see so so the so the intention and the very serious process of of self-work in understanding this this infinite game and putting that intention of that infinite arrow towards that love and growth prosperity all these words it then makes it so that there is no potential errors that happen in terms of our ethics or morals or philosophies or issues that could arise from when we make the technologies like artificial intelligence or biotech neurotech etc there's no rather than selling the story of the fear you're selling the story of the purpose the purpose and just the absolutely unwavering focus no swaying away from that only and yes and just to remind that on every time on while we are moving on that arrow we can realize well we've got this new tech which would actually give us experience to accelerate our progress and therefore means we can aim for even higher expansion which would be a new arrow from that moment of realization and we say okay are we willing to go the same way or we see this potential redirecting us and why don't we after this discovery reconsider arrowing us there and then we just say wow that has even greater potential of expansion I just move it there so we can always point a new arrow out of existing one but very deliberately so it has to be with a good purpose okay and that's these dialectics that happen between the kind of like the the dialogue of the civilization etc that could then decide on the the slight adjustments of the purpose arrow that's the collective that's the collective awareness how do we make it like a decentralized way to make the decision of the civilization's purpose arrow and that's an interesting topic we've been discussing also here at the conference my work previously was around figuring out because I was working on transforming cities so what would be the universal well-being scale so for example there is a land available in a city and there would be different developers proposing different projects parking garage park supermarket basic things and typically people will look at the expenses the resources and rarely they would be really going into the impact to the to the well-being of people around that to the earth to the ecosystem all of those sort of things but if we were if we had this universal metric it would land somewhere from from zero to hundred percent for example in those three projects depending on the universal collective impact to everything what is meaningful for us and what would have the highest purpose so that we have this collective set of things that would emerge as a one variable on this one metric and if we get that done then i think we are pretty good at collectively deciding what it is and then collectively adjust adjusting if needed so and that's not trivial but also not too complicated because i think our current mindsets are too locked into the previous habits money cost and then maybe the corporate social responsibility emerged i didn't know a couple of decades ago and now it's more and more other well-being things come to the workplaces and so forth i just think that if we become more conscious and aware we could speed up that process of actually getting this universal i was speaking about universal well-being metric but i now during this conference are more and more contemplating what universal consciousness metric that would be amazing and i think that would be reference point and it could be shared with everyone and then cultures can or places can adapt depending on their values because values is something that is fundamental of the societies and communities a universal consciousness metric that is adjusted based on the values of the communities i wouldn't predict there would be a huge differences based on the values but values are always the fundament for for the local community therefore they have to be part of that so what i mean is some people are more collectivist some more more competitive i don't say which one like one is better than the other but if they are this way you can adopt the the measurement instrument according to the values and then there's still some sort of a way to decide on what even these measure the measurement instrument is in the first place based on who decides you know that's hard it's again it's nothing your connectedness like based on your i don't know your biometric state of interconnectedness and then maybe you're enlightened enough to be uh one of the the ideators behind the purpose yeah i think the purpose is something that would be the the common denominator and then there would be very easy to understand contributions or determinants of that and then that could give this maybe there will be a lot of smaller indicators grouping in the larger indicators and then we will get this the holistic metric in the very end so universal consciousness metric and then what i mean by adjusting to the values it might be the proportions so you might have like a different input based on what's more important in the specific culture and that's let's say there are 10 categories by 10 but then in one culture it would be split of these 10 and 10 into 15 and 5 so it like some some of the categories more important than the other one so they would be like rearranging more percentage wise like a weight different kind of weights attached to the same category i think the categories would still remain very universal because they are attached to the purpose and the greater purpose of the mankind anyways it was just like like an implementation of that for the specific yes but even at the most upstream though the overall civilizational purpose though i mean this is kind of reminds me also of like the Dunbar communities themselves of just so hard to go past that 150 and you jump to figuring out how to govern a billion people or eight billion people is much more yeah there's there's different ways to structure the social fabric to maximize flourishing and so we're kind of in the process of running all the combinatorics permutations as little governments and stuff right now and yeah there's there's been a lot of really interesting things that have come up from this conversation yeah this has been really fun August thank you so much for coming on you you're very welcome i mean this is life we just let ourselves live it and it just are in our reach we just need to reach for it we just need to some say concentrate some say meditate we just need to allow it to come it's in everything is in our reach you're very welcome thank you thank you this is very very enjoyable i'm happy to hear good we're happy to hear yes we've been honored it's been so fun thank you thank you thank you thanks thanks everyone for tuning in we greatly appreciate it we'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments below on the episode all these different interesting fascinating multi area topics that were covered this was so fun brother check out the links to Agnes's work in the bio below check out all those links check out the links to the transformative technology conference as well check out all those links thank you Brady Springer for co-producing really appreciate you and also support the artists the entrepreneurs the organizations the spiritual leaders around the world that you believe in in your local communities you can port simulation you can support our show you can find the links in the bio below paypal patreon cryptocurrency you can design design cool merch and get paid and go and build the future manifest your dreams into the world we love you very much thank you for tuning in and we will see you soon peace