 Hello everybody. Welcome back to the Think Tech Hawaii studios for another episode of security matters. Today we're going to talk about something that I think evades a lot of our industry and this is how do I get involved with the federal government? How do I do business with the federal government? What's it all about? Is it as hard as it seems? I've heard a lot of integrators talk about that difficulty that they perceive. And I think government could use your services. So I've got a couple of experts here today. Wayne Esra is with us from the Blue Oceans Advisory Group and I've got Deira Bluestone with us from PAE. And we are going to talk through this. We're going to have a conversation about doing business with the government. And I'm going to key that off of a lot of the experience that they've had building the companies that they've built that service the government sector. So first I'll let Wayne and Deira introduce themselves to you and then we'll kind of get going and Deira will let you go first. Welcome Deira. Thanks for joining me today. Hi, thank you for having me. So my name is Deira Bluestone and I've been in business development capacity for about 15 to 20 years specifically within the federal sector, civilian DOD and Intel. I both managed a team and been an individual contributor working for integrators and manufacturers. So I think that gives me a pretty well rounded approach to business development opportunity identification and procurement in general. I work for PAE. I'm their senior business development manager. And again, thank you for having me on the show. Thanks. Wayne, give us a little bit of your background there, sir. If you don't mind. Yeah, sure. I started as a government contractor in 1983. Yeah, you know, right out of high school. And so I've been at it a while. I started in the aerospace world. I worked on the manned space programs down at the Johnson Space Center and ended up. I worked for a couple of companies, small business, then Boeing hired me. And so that was a, you know, an interesting contrast of environment. I then went to work on the shuttle program and then followed into the space station program. And then I moved out to the West Coast to their advanced programs group. And then 911 came along and I got into the security business, whether I wanted to or not. And so that was, you know, that was my introduction. We had a couple of big programs right there early on helping DHS kind of get set up. One deploying the EDS machines to all the airports for doing baggage scanning and the like. And then the SBINET program, which was a big border security technology program that was kind of the first of its kind. You know, you could argue the success of it, but it was a lot of lessons learned for CBP and for us. So, and then from there I went into more conventional security, you know, infrastructure protection, that sort of thing. And I've kind of been, you know, operations BD, you know, in the, you know, in the business world, everybody's in business development, right. And so, so, you know, that's, that's the, that's the story I retired mostly 2018 and have been just doing some, some consulting and helping, helping others, so to speak. So, awesome. Well, thank you. Thanks for, we pulled you out of retirement today. So thanks for sharing your wisdom. Let's let's go to a thing that I hear a lot from small businesses like how do I get started they go to their SBA office or they go reach out through through some of the groups like FCA maybe or NDIA and, and they, they don't feel that there's really help there. And so, could you, could you both talk a little bit about maybe what you would tell the small guy for starting out what I feel like is that the small guy thinks I got all this great stuff why doesn't anybody buy it from me. Instead of that they don't really go find the customer and do that homework and legwork they need to do so you're maybe give us your, your insights on that that that market research that needs to be done. Sure, well I actually think that the little guy has a better chance of getting in faster than the big guy. And I think they're given a lot of privileges they have certain ways into doing business with the government. They have the small business utilization office which is dedicated to small businesses and and they're obligated to see small businesses when asked. So they have the direct route in and while they might not be able to introduce them to any particular program manager or acquisition officer, they certainly can direct them around the agency to get to know the agency. And besides all large contracts have small business set aside portions. So there are, I mean there's obligations so partnering is always a good way to break in as well. And I don't want to steal Wayne's funder so I'll give him a chance to speak as well. Well, yeah, clearly those are some great ideas. Every agency has their own small business utilization office and some of them are very aggressive, some of them are more passive but like for example, BHS, they've had a very strong small business utilization program and they're very willing to talk to you show you the ropes help you with the organization. And it's it is a good place to start. There's, I think when you talk about the organizations like ACIA and see for example, some of those organizations are very policy driven and may not be so useful from a standpoint of, you know, getting new business, but they're an incredible networking opportunity. And I think the networking piece of it is absolutely very critical. You know, we, you know, we run a networking organization called the security forum here in DC and there's, there's lots of these kinds of things that are very focused on commerce, as opposed to policy. And you have a lot of opportunity to get with other people other people like you other people that need you that sort of thing. So, I think the whole networking thing is is really critical. And, you know, once you get your foot in the door, then it, you know, it starts, you know, multiplying. Yeah, I don't think relationships cannot be under relate they can't. I mean, they're so important for small businesses and getting work and doing business development. I mean, that's an amazing place to start. I had fortunate up to attend an event there with you folks at your forum and several events in DC and I was like, Well, this is where all the businesses like you go to these events in Hawaii and there's 12 people or 20 people. You know, everyone in DC is business oriented right where it seems that out here in our little spot in the ocean, there's like a more of a of a of a of an opportunity seeking mindset right it's not it's not the business is here how do we do it together what makes sense for us. How often do you have opportunities to network in the in just like the DC area it seemed to me that it's like every day in a week. Yeah, yeah, I think that I think that's true, you know, there is a lot to do here but I think the thing is, you know, again, you have to kind of pick your vertical or so to speak, you know, you got to get focused government so too big. It's too big and so like our event is very network. I mean it's very security focused and we have three kind of people that show up people looking for a job, people looking for an employee and people looking for a partner. Those are the three people, you know, I think it's important to classify the difference between pre cove it and post cove it because what you do pre cove it is not necessarily what you can do post cove it, but pre cove it, you can make a career out of going to a function every single day or a conference every single week. And there is probably too much and I think we all have to get focused now post cove it, you know, we're going to get there. It's just, it's just a matter of time. And there's some things you can do I think pre cove it or during cove it but it is difficult. If you don't have the connections already so, but it's a good time to start doing your research, take advantage of the online, you know the gosh you know dates me I keep wanting to call it the business daily but that was like 30 years ago. Now it's beta fam.gov where all the contracts and that's where you can really go research each agency, see what they're procuring what's coming down the pike what's coming up for and if it's a great big thing you might want to go talk to some of the prime contractors about being on their team if it's a little thing you might, you know, look at going to, you know, on your own so there's there's a lot of things that you could be doing right now to, you know, really get your knowledge base put together. And you can also look for USA spending.gov which agencies are getting the funding, what they're getting funding for so you know what they're buying so that you're selling somebody something that they're going to be acquiring. Let's let's take let's stay with that thread just a little bit how much of biz dev is research let's just let's just ask that question 90% you know and then 10% people is it 80% research 20% people you know making the relationships what do you think. Wow that's a tough one. I think it is. So, it is amazing what you learn from people in your networking that you can then go research much better. You know, so it's definitely a relationship there but somebody you know you're talking to somebody and they said hey do you hear about the, you know the project coming out of FDA, and maybe you haven't. Maybe you have and you get a few tidbits and then you go research FDA and you find that program and you, and if you, you know if you're lucky enough to have a subscription to say gov win or something like that you can really then go do some serious research. You know you go use beta Sam dot gov and it has all the same things it's not quite as friendly as as gov win or some of the other programs out there. So, if I have to put a percentage to it. I would say it's 6040. Oh nice research. How about you Wayne. Yeah, I think that's a good number. You know, again, it's a little subjective as it would be but I think that's probably closer than like 8020. I think there's there's a lot of both because they kind of feed off each other. Yeah, and I do think that, you know, a lot of business people think that it's sales, right they think you say biz dev to them they say sales and biz really reaching out to define that opportunity and then finding out where you may fit. The federal government doesn't offer many. When they have a small program it's huge like for a small organization typically right you know you what can you play how can you be part of that solution who can you partner with who's done it well before who had the contract you know why is it why is it being given up or why is it becoming available all those sort of things are interesting levels of research and I don't know if our industry. I have a I've had this opinion that are a lot of our industry people stand like on this pedestal I'm the security guy know what I'm doing. You should come to me from for my knowledge, and the federal government has a million people just like you to know everything so they, they're not going to come beating your door down you've really got to go to them and present yourself. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's right you got to get out there and get yourself in front of them. No doubt, just like any other process you know, you know, I doubt if commercial guys come hunting you down if they don't know you know. So, government same way you got to get out there, you know, and do your due diligence and, and I think another thing that scares people off is, you know, you've got the federal acquisition regulations that, you know, are just overwhelming. For the most part, and I don't want to say they don't apply because they absolutely do apply. And it is a little more disciplined process probably than your, maybe your commercial business at a certain level. But it's, you know, a lot of it is common sense. I mean, it can be a little daunting. But at the end of the day, it's doing the same kind of things you're doing. There's just some guidelines around it. You know, so you don't have to have cost accounting system, you know, you can do it without a cost accounting system. It does, you know, that kind of defines what you can bid what you can't bid. So you just have to kind of wrap your head around that not. I think one of the biggest challenges anybody and I've helped a lot of people go from commercial to government. And often, they give it up, because you really have to, you have to have a different mindset. It's a, it's a different environment. It's, it's, and it's not hard. It's just different. And, and if you, if you're not willing to rethink your head, you know, get your head aligned about how the government works. Then you'll just wake up every morning with a headache. And so I think it's, it's really critical to get your head around a different mindset of how you do business. Yeah, we're going to jump to a break and we come back. I want to stay there because I want to talk about, I think the Fed government does it really, really well. And I think its providers are challenged to do it really, really well. And I don't think we get challenged in the commercial sector quite as much. So we're going to pay some bills. We'll be back in about one minute stick around back to security matters. We have Wayne Esser and Deira Bluestone with us today. And we are talking about working with the federal government partnering being a partner doing biz development. And we gave you a little hint of what amount of work that is. I kind of wanted, I'll kind of, Deira said something during the break that I think was important about business development being long, a longer view. So, you know, this is not maybe the place you send your sales guy to build this market. He's got to get a commission this week, right? So, Deira, why don't you talk about that just a little bit. I think it's a super critical difference. Well, I was talking about the actual definition for business development is really creating long term value for the company. And you really need to be dedicated to the federal sector if you're going to be working in that that area. The lead time on programs are like 18 to 24 months and that's on a good day. So you really need to have the commitment to drive the creativity. You need to be able to have the staying power. Definitely staying power. That's awesome. Wayne, and have you seen that? I know you've helped a lot of groups get engaged. Is it, is it take them a few years to get on their feet and then once they're in, they kind of get, they get the hang of it. Yeah, I think it depends, you know, I've worked with, I've, well, I've worked as an employee, you know, with some big companies and we've, you know, had to do it there. But, but I've since since then working with kind of smaller, and I say small anywhere from, you know, a $10 million company up to maybe a 70, 80, $100 million company, you know, I worked in one in particular and they're very accomplished security company out on the West Coast. I won't mention any names but and the owner of the company and I've become good friends and, you know, he finally said, you know, I just can't, I can't do this, you know, and he's very very, you know, he's very successful. I think he and again it was back to my comment earlier. I think he just never wanted to really get his head around the mindset. And he decided it wasn't his thing, you know, and so that's okay so I hate to bring up a failure, but you know, sometimes you really give it a heart and he gave it a really hard look. The funny thing is that it gets it's actually very easy there's a very regimented approach to doing business. And once you understand it is a roadmap and it's very clear you know what it takes get from a to Z. So it's not that challenging and that confusing but I guess it's it's daunting for newcomers into the space. You know, before we go ahead, go ahead, Wayne. I was just going to say for various established companies. It's almost, in my mind, you almost have to kind of set up a separate cost center a separate, you know, it doesn't have to be a separate company necessarily, but you know an organization that has some independence from your commercial business, because it is going to be different decision making processes. And I think it would, it would lend itself to a much higher probability of success. Yeah, we, I can I can attest that we've always done federal business but after we got our a day we've those that the government business and our commercial business and we also do municipal government which has its own set of rules. Yeah, right. They all kind of function a little different they they they do and we've we've adapted to that but we've been at it you know a couple of decades so it wasn't that difficult but I'm watching the government business at our particular company and it seems to keep separating itself a little further and a little further and processes are you know I think I think they're more mature like I would like more modeling of my commercial workforce on the principles and the sort of the way the government does business. I think they're sort of leaders and maybe a little prejudice my time in the Navy I thought the Navy did things right and I love those maintenance practices and all the stuff that we learned there and I don't know I just think business can learn a lot from the way government does business it's regimented is organized to your point here and you know like why not chase chase chase a high bar. Well I think it's easier to do business in an agile environment where you're able to make quick decisions and they're able to to turn around or your decisions and they don't necessarily have to be pre published and you don't need necessarily three bidders and you could just say yes or no and so it's easier to do business in a commercial environment so I don't know if they're necessarily leaders because it takes a long, but I enjoy it as well I didn't come into this business. I kind of fell into it and I stuck with it and and I love it. That's nice. So Wayne, what do you think the big the big guys you've got a vision from from your time at Boeing do they do they. I know many of them have small business partnership offices and programs where they want to take their, their large programs and do set a size with with a day and certain other disadvantaged set up you know what are they disadvantaged businesses but yeah is that are those programs truly viable or they are they are they agile do they pursue them and try to meet their percentages and that kind of stuff. There's there's a lot of scrutiny on that's my understanding. Right, there is there is some scrutiny and and part of it well. I can speak for Boeing when I was there okay so I retired from Boeing in 2008 and you know I'm sure some things have gotten better, but Boeing had a very very strong supplier management organization for starters, and within that supplier management was their small business team, and they were very aggressive. Now the, you know so that's the good news, the bad news is, they ran you through the rarer. Okay, you, you know, you had to be good, you had to be, you know, you had to really perform, they had so they rated you like gold, silver, platinum, you know whatever I don't remember all the colors but it was a very very active program, and we did a lot of mentorships where we would get you know set up formal mentoring relationships that the government recognized, which is a lot more common now, I understand then maybe it was back when I was doing it but on the SBI net program for example I think we had seven mentor protege agreements with various companies. But yeah, and I think the, you know, the critique is, and I certainly welcome hearing people's real critiques but I know there's always never enough, you know, there's never enough that goes out to small business or so there's always people that I've had to go I've had to go justify to congressmen why this company didn't get this contract, you know, so they call their congressman he calls, you know, he calls somebody and one of our, you know, one of Boeing's lobbyists would call me and say, Wayne, you know, we have to go up on the hill and talk to Senator, you know, who's it and explain why we didn't give this company and his district a contract. Wow. You know, it happens and I will assure you that is not the way to get in the good graces of a big company. He actually does a lot of mentor protege programs so it is very popular over in my company. Yeah, and they're fair about a $3 billion company. Wow. And so, and how diverse are those are those are those happening across the range of the business sectors that you operate. Yes, yes. But they're very driven by opportunities and relationships. Okay. And what about past performance you know when you go evaluate a small business partner, or a partner or any partner for that example. What are you looking for and sort of like that past performance I think a lot of folks don't understand you need to be able to prove to the government that you have delivered the thing you're trying to sell to them with some sort of, you know, the government measures its contracts but if you haven't been in there and you're trying to get in. You know what do you what do you hope to see from those kind of partners. Yeah, I think. So, again, it can be kind of depending on where you're trying to get into to a job but if you're working with a large company, and they're out, you know bidding lots of work, they'd obviously like you to have some past performance that they can contribute to making them successful, right. So, and, and the government and the big guys will all that they look at, you know, say you're you're a relatively new company you don't have a whole lot, but they do look at personal history. So, you know, if the principal of the company has been in the security business for, you know, 20 years and done this and done that, all that counts. So it's not always just you know about having a contract. So, so it's not you know you shouldn't feel defeated from the get go if you don't have a bunch of big contracts for past performance, but assuming you do have some personal experience in in that arena. I think any sort of relative, any sort of relative related past performance, or any holes that that particular company might not be able to fill where they can backfill it and utilize or lean on the small businesses ability capability, usually small businesses are a little more forward thinking they're a little more. They have state of the art products equipment expertise. They're willing. It's a little more personally. They have a lot more personal interest and investment. Sure, that passion still there when when they're small. Well, we've got a couple minutes left. Dear, why don't you give us maybe your final thoughts on just advice for somebody who hasn't hasn't offered their services to government but wants to get engaged. I would definitely say it's a place that all companies should be engaged. It's a lot of job security in that it's the business is always going to be there. There's always going to be work, the payments are going to be made on time, whereas there is some speculation on that. I would definitely say that they should try first getting into these small business utilization areas they need to research on the agencies and what they're buying they they need to know who they're selling to, and that their product is going to be something they want. I think that small businesses should level. They should leverage all relationships personal and business. Go to LinkedIn, go to go to networking events. I know it's hard on conferences with virtual conferences because there's no sideline conversations, but you need to get out there. You need to talk to people. You need to find multiple ways of getting into the agencies that you want to sell to. There are opportunities and people should not be scared away from doing business with the government. Awesome. Wayne, she took up some of your time there, but your final thoughts there. Well, I can't say enough about, you know, getting out there and talking to people and, and just learning what's going on and you get that from talking to people and I would highly, you know, suggest that anybody that, especially small companies, they should start with the big primes, you know, Gaslight Convergent and Johnson Controls and, you know, that they're out there in the security world in large ways, and they have a lot of small business requirements. So, and they're all over the country so it's not like you have to be in Washington, D.C. So I would highly recommend that sort of thing and maybe, you know, there's some networking, you know, y'all could set up locally that could pull in those kind of players, you know, and we'd be happy to help you do that. Yeah. Thank you. All right, folks, well that's our wrap. I hope you picked up a few tidbits. The federal government wants your business. Take it to them. Dear Wayne, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you taking the time to share with our audience. And I look forward to maybe maybe we'll swing back and do this again after COVID is over and we'll see how things are going. Yeah, sounds great. All right. Hello, everybody. Have a great day.