 So crazy first thing Reagan does is fire their a traffic controller. So Yeah, I do think though. We're gonna see a much greater support for labor actions Generally moving forward because people have had very bad conditions for a very long time and it keeps getting worse I think honestly the Republicans are Pretty quiet about it because they've found an alternative Place to unify their tribe Which is on all the the woke stuff, right? Like I haven't seen a Republican Congress people be like, oh, yeah strikes bad So maybe it'll be a little different, I mean, I think They tried to kill unions and you know now they're getting the results Slapping back there at the start of the call I mentioned that I was worried that the two big strikes that have been going on the writer strikes and actor strikes and the UAW strike might cause Republicans to vote more and I'm pointed out that 65% public approval on these strikes and that we may be in the middle of sort of a The backlash against the backlash You know that the thick thick thick what was it the counter movement from Polanyi? And I don't know I mean I remember I remember several elections back Gavin Newsom made gay marriage a Legal in San Francisco or whatever else and like there was a burst of happiness and that was like three months before the election and I I could just feel that Great action miserable timing because it lit up a bunch of people on the right who went out and voted I think I don't remember my evidence or Whatever, but I think there was a like a like a pickup and and I sometimes I worry about the timing of these kinds of things Yeah, I don't know. I do think that like the capability of the GOP to be anti labor is increasingly difficult now and So I think they're going to try and double down on the woke stuff and They're protest there and try and pretend that none of the labor stuff is happening In order to avoid taking a real position on it Seems to me what they're doing now because weirdly somehow somehow weirdly Republicans became the party of every man in middle America and the worker when it used to be Democrats and Democrats are now elites and whatever whatever and I'm like wait. How did that role swap happen? I Think you need you need a new parties. Maybe I have you considered this I've considered it I've been waiting for a decade for Mitt Romney to take a couple of actual conservative Republicans and go start a new party, but now he's retiring out But I sort of killed to any sort of ability he had to do that. Why when Did Romney it when he ran? Well, I know I know I don't mean for him to run at the head of that ticket I mean for him to take a bunch of conservatives and say let's start a new party and whoever rises to the top of that Party could run but let's let's split off like there used to be Democratic Republicans And that died and then that got remixed into the Democrats and Republicans and we had we had wigs early on right? that that's what happened to Almost everybody who is in the center of the Republican Party left or quit or retired Is a means of getting out because it wasn't worth the emotional labor and backlash. They were getting themselves for being You know You know Whatever it is that side really is after now. I'm not sure other than we just like to complain. Yeah, I did hear You know Newt Gingrich this morning who I think is also He's certainly a little further to the right than center, but I don't think he's Trump crazy right But he this morning was saying hey, you know Biden I think it was on NPR He's like Biden's trying to get all this support from labor, but already the little guy is on Trump's side So it's where does that split come out between? Do you identify as labor? Or a laborer who needs the unions or do you identify even more with you know kind of that Trumpist? flavor That's got Yeah, I mean I think the interesting hack that's happened in the sort of overton window of who gets to consider themselves labor right is we're seeing like Managers and wealthy ultra wealthy people and like Landlords all use the language of labor to defend their profit-making and The GOP right like they support that approach. I think there was a really talking about Trump right there was a really interesting news story, which was Biden's off to the picket line for the UAW and Trump is also off to The protests, but it turns out what he's doing is meeting with management But right like they have understood how to paint that in such a way that it's like well, we're all You know working in America Etc. So well, I'm still waiting for the group of Workers and contractors and laborers who were all stiffed by Trump to come back out of the woodwork While this is going on and I have heard next to nothing So I read I read the making of Donald Trump by David K Johnson before the 2016 election and I was like There have been 4,000 lawsuits brought against Trump at the Trump Organization for exactly the kinds of things you just named like he just He'll take somebody's invoice and say well, I don't think the work the work was worth it Maybe I'll pay you half. Maybe I won't pay you at all. Take me to court. Good luck And and I was like that and a whole bunch of other stupid stuff And I was like how is anybody going to elect this guy to be there? And they did like it was weird then This is a thought back when Obama back when Obama was trying to pass The healthcare stuff I was like he should start a Fireside chat like thing pick a day do a podcast and invite in people to tell their horror stories about the existing death panels Because remember the the Republicans mobilized death panels as as what was going to happen under centralized health care So what we got with Obama care was basically a camel or a platypus. It's this hybrid creature That's not really what anybody wanted to build But it passed that it's resisted like 20 assaults on it by it from the right and I've cataloged all those assaults in my brain But I was wishing that Obama would sit down and like just interview people who've already suffered and say Screw you with this death panel thing. You know, you already have death panels And so the same thing could happen right now it's like all the people who've been stiffed by Trump could be on a on a talk show and And like a little drumbeat every week They could drop stories and tell who died who did what you know who committed suicide because whatever and it would be pretty fabulous It would make good media. I Think the left has no idea how to respond to the far right and the far right has gotten so ballsy and so They've broken so many norms and decided that like just being ballsy and repeating it seems to work The left doesn't really know how to respond The question though is where do you put that drumbeat? in a place where Anyone who needs to hear it is going to hear it on the inner tubes on tiktok for Christake I don't know you put it someplace where people can remix it and go go mess with that a Podcast right that seems to be how the rights to invent. Yeah, I don't know though There is like a really interesting conversation. I've been pulled into a couple of times about how like Podcasts have become like an intrinsically right-wing medium Which I'm not sure I agree with but I understand like the argument that's being made there What's that it's like a hot take it seems like you know, like yeah, so in which way is that true? Well, I'd be like you look at something like like the the daily wire or a bunch of these other things where it's I think what people are really seeing is that the the content policies are Significantly worse for audio podcasts than they are for anything else, right? if you put up video then That's difficult to host yourself and difficult to distribute So you need to be on YouTube or you need to be on twitch and they're going to moderate you if you start spouting out really hateful shit And if you write stuff like you need a platform and if he gets too bad We saw what happens with Stormfront, right? You get delisted from the entire DNS system But on the other side of it like with podcasts One they're very difficult to scrub through to Like Spotify doesn't do anything, right? They paid for Joe Rogan millions and millions of dollars Neither does iTunes neither does any of them really trying to get a podcast off of all of the platforms that it could be on very difficult and Then the final thing is the pressure point on these things is very often the ads Where you shame the advertisers for being associated with it and it's extremely difficult to capture an advertisement happening on an audio podcast and I think that combination of things is it's less that the format is intrinsically Conservative and more that the moderation tools are poor and wherever moderation tools are poor Nowadays I love that observation on thank you. That's really like I hadn't thought about it that way so here you can imagine like of course a platform improvements, right? so a speech to text being presumably improving yet and improving in the near future a It should be that podcast become as easy to parse consume the text and maybe moderate as text You should be but there's an extra step. So I will totally see that they're taking some time still I think part of the problem is that the podcast platforms that the rebroadcasters are so Diverse and tiny and hard to police like you couldn't come after them where where if you want video scene you go to YouTube Yeah Here I guess I don't know if we want other insubvocate, but then I always I think you know the favorites for example I mentioned the failures often, you know, the famous has so much on tools in general It kind of remodeling as a whole what the best way the best that they can happen in the failures Or if it's happening currently you know tools we have is like it's sort of like can fork So then you have like all the nasty and troll instances sort of like flopping or and maybe federating with each other if you don't care and the More constructives out of the feathers who de-federates with us. So essentially you have you get like a Sort of like a split in the network and The question is always do we care about what goes on in the areas of the failures? Which we don't federate with Which we could also define to be outside the feathers sort of a definition depends on the vision and This goes into like the question I mean, I don't know to put it bluntly Do we care about nasty thing nazis if they are only nasty between themselves? If that's actually realistic or in the definition of nasty one that goes and enforce it force their nastiness on others, right? so And I don't know I guess like the legal take will be let the podcast like, you know be some book has the right wing or like even like beyond and Just don't listen to those But I don't know Then so we quickly trip into the free speech and what what are the boundaries of free speech question? Yeah, it's so complicated Yeah, I mean, I think it is very interesting to think about And to also think about how you build the platforms in such a way that it discourages that type of occurrence Definitely easier said than done There's a story about V. Taiwan's platform polis, which is Taiwan's kind of civic infrastructure and in order to reduce flame wars on Conversations on their platform. They removed the reply feature on a lot of the threads some of the threads I don't know the details of the story but but by removing the reply it meant that you had to go start a new post if you wanted to say something and You couldn't directly reply to something else So, you know, you could like it you could thumbs up thumbs down whatever But you couldn't reply in sort of poor kerosene on a particular topic and I Would never think of removing the reply feature on a conversation because it's like seems like it's essential Turns out it was actually really beneficial to the cooling of the jets in those forums Interesting. I do really like. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I was gonna say I wonder too and RM you may have watched it more carefully because most newspapers have taken It just takes so much time and effort and energy and staff time To watch and moderate conversations on those platforms most newspapers have taken their Form out, but it's I always wonder too if you know You see these New York Times articles, you know back in the day that had 4,000 comments on them But other than you putting your comment in the box I Never got the impression that a lot of people were actually reading them there They were interacting, but it was you know more of a shout box like I'm yelling to the great gaping Which may make me feel better, but it's not going to affect anyone else You know you threw that into Twitter and And Twitter will take it and amplify Your speech because of an algorithm and it makes them more money. So I think the other thing we don't talk enough about is there is You know free speech is great but the free acceleration and free reach that the average Joe gets should not be what they're getting I mean Jim and Peoria's may have an opinion and it may count for something But he shouldn't be allowed to reach everybody in the world. Yeah, he shouldn't necessarily Be able to reach millions of people Freedom of speech not freedom of reach Tagline there So Go ahead. I just Yeah, I was just gonna say I think the other thing that's like interesting here is I will say that like Actually users are really engaged in comments Obviously the usefulness of it depends on the site in the audience But generally the reason that like a lot of publishers took it down Wasn't because it wasn't getting engagement and people weren't interacting back and forth, etc And it wasn't because authors weren't interested in the comments and reading them and reacting to them It was just because there's no way to moderate it that doesn't require humans and it most papers Don't have enough money to do basic shit much less comment moderation. I mean we still have Comments on at the Washington Post and I'd say the other thing that's notable there is like When I was working for B2B publications Magazines I actually built a WordPress plug-in the sole purpose of which was to allow our editors to Take the best comments and assemble them into a post on a particular topic And those were very high engagement. We had really good results from doing that So people are reading them and interested in them, but it's not necessarily easy to get them Moderated there's no way around needing a human for it. Unfortunately Yeah, I mean just on the technical comments here, I guess first like On the moderation burden. It's interesting how that is a common pattern to well everything A lot of things we cast today and others in this cast usually I think so and I It's going back shortly to the example of this VT1 Forum removing the reply feature. It actually reminds me of what happens in the failures right now where Maston doesn't have the quote Toot or quote post Batman because of precisely same reason So Maston has the recline refuse even a PR. I think to implement this not a technical Merits or anything of the kind but rather a thunder memory it Because they the exact feature that can be abused They think it's too easy for people to do pylons and or whether there means a bullying and It's to me. I my reaction to that particular being a someone who liked the quote tweet Functionality and the fact that you know, it lets you like do threats in two directions like down and up to some extent, you know Since quite democratic in principle, you know, kind of like It's like comment and start a new thread. Anyway, and you can still what is there? You can still like copy and paste a tooth and like include a link So it to me that I was kind of flimsy, but I have heard the arguments about people who say they are happy They haven't done it because precisely of how hard is to stop abuse, you know once, you know, it starts and so, you know as a technical person I lean towards wanted the future the future, but you know, it's nice to hear this disorder and takes them finally on the moderation issue the moderation commons is something I mean discussing with people that So I don't want to be the person who takes commons and then as words Although it's out there were policies to generate ideas, but motion commons as a potential Cooperative framework so that you know, we can make the most of the humans who are willing to the moderation for All likes, you know, society's purpose is essentially That'd be awesome. It sounds really interesting. I'd love to learn more. I have to discuss. I have a brief story from the old days Early online days my mom loved political discourse She was on AOL a ton early on and her her AOL handle was Ava Marie M And that that time the New York Times had their forums on AOL So she was in there like doing sword duels with the right-wing people who were nowhere near as right-wing as they are now and engaging all the time and then at one point we went to a Tom Friedman book reading in DC I guess it was till then and she went up to sign sign the book and I Don't remember how the conversation started. You know, I like I like posting on the forums or whatever and he was like Oh, you're Ava Marie M It made her year made her year because he recognized her right from the post on the forum on the Times forums before they pulled them and You know went to the Times and then they cut them off. Then the second story is she got popular enough that somebody Somebody created this handle on AOL Ava Marie M.com which looks a lot like Ava Marie M And they started going in and impersonating her and posting as if they were her Saying opposite things to what she'd been saying and that freaked mom out for a little while But it didn't last very long, but I was like well, that's freaking clever You know early days of Impersonation all that kind of stuff, but I learned a lot just watching her do that Yeah, I do think like it's interesting to think about different approaches, right? I think sort of the indie web approach to comments is I feel like sort of splits the middle there Where it's the idea is you can't you don't have normal replies on a post you have to create a post somewhere else And then tag it towards that blog and then it shows up as if it was a reply And so it sort of has the the middle ground of you have to go out and create an independent thing But it's still a reply. I do see the thing with like yeah, it's very interesting I do see the thing with quote tweets though, right like It's very easy to be pro quote tweets when they've worked well for you and on you, right? But I've I definitely have talked to the people who are like, yeah the the main way I see quote tweets used is to like get people Focused on harassing the single person I think like the choices that the activity pub Working group have made around their standard And that mastodon has made around its technology are Really interesting right so like because the those the people who worked on those projects came from backgrounds where they Or a lot of people they knew were getting heavily harassed on the internet and so activity pub is sort of the most Concerned with harassment of any of the social media standards because of that and I think that gives us a certain like Set of things to learn from there in the in the choices that they make whether or not we use quote tweets But the reasoning they have for not using them might inform some future iteration completely yes, I mean so an activity pub. It's quite flexible and yes and I Mean, I think mastodon the decision not having code tweets or code tools I think some miski. I think my understanding is it actually implements a quote Because it's a different kind of activity so I guess we can just have that so activity bus supports them as my understanding And we were actually discussing the other day with people on this idea of the moderation commons About whether activity pub could get be used or be extended to actually make the moderation flows Federated as a first, you know party first like class a kind of event So it's still having people say like hashtag failure look it's it all right You know how instances actually federate their view or where they wouldn't buy the instances are right And I will be happy to find more people working on these. I'm not aware of that be no more It's that's definitely a tough problem though because everybody wants to take the easier ways out and I can create a block list and Federate that block list But if I make a knucklehead mistake Suddenly your favorite friend you don't see anymore Which has happened a lot so it's You you've got to go past that first level to second and third and fourth levels or You know do things like You know, I presume email providers take signal Google will take signals if I mark something a spam And that exact same thing gets marked a spam by a hundred other people then they can save You know the eyeballs in the time of millions beyond that but What what level do you throw your signal threshold that? Yeah, it goes it leads moderation Leads to algorithms. I mean, which is another of the hot topics in the failures always You know the position of life. We don't want algorithms Which I do think as someone who is in the technology also doesn't make sense to me Right because I always try to say there's always an algorithm because you are seeing a sequence of poles It's just that the default algorithm is very simple, but you know like But of course, I also understand that the experiences that people have had with because of algorithms I can be very Reaneative so that need to be addressed And this is where something like blue sky seems to have the right approaches seems in like allowing for play-on-play policies and Unfortunately, the favors feels a bit conservative to me so far Or does the federal rate does the fed a verse seem conservative because of the view you specifically have of it Not seeing the entirety of the fed a verse Which is the other thing is the what is your bubble perspective of that thing? Probably I mean I agree. I mean I'm part of the moderation team of social co-op. So I do see some of it I mean, I don't know say I do that, you know, but it I mean people get Can be really mean yes But I guess I wanted to say like for me like we should be focusing on building the right tools and technologies so that, you know, communities are risk can Not really be straight off, right? Or, you know, when I'm when I hear moderate social co-op I would love it to make it easier to say. Oh, I Moderate in these crappy polls by a nazi means that all my friend instances won't see it Right, so this is the kind of thing that others can do And none of us as a woman and I think women's experience online is really dramatically different from men's And so there's a lot of issues there as well I remember long ago thinking what when muds and moose and Text-based games were popular, which seems like a very long time ago I remember Talking about this other people saying hey What this means is that people can go online and they can adopt a persona And I guess this is true of avatars later where you pick your gender and make your avatar But they would they would accidentally step into the men would accidentally step into women's shoes And then walk around online and and see what happened when people think that you're a woman And I think that was a good accidental lesson for the men In the sense of they might not otherwise have any way of experiencing that or noticing that that matters Yeah We should totally invite different people from our demographic into these conversations. Uh, yeah So between now, I don't know Or maybe in the mathematical, I don't know Because he has been a recording topic Yeah, my dog wants to participate, but I don't think she's saying anything useful And I'm not sure we're talking about species diversity Although they're using the eye to try to talk to communicate to animals now Which is kind of cool It is cool I mean, I think it's the same thing. Have you ever seen those videos of like the cat buttons? Yeah, or the dogs. Yeah, I've seen dogs I've seen dogs trained to hit buttons and say play now throw a ball give food. Let me out My favor was the dog of the The dog wanted something and the human was not engaging So the dog went over and push push the buttons that essentially said the phrase me. No, love you That's really good. I hadn't seen that one I mean I would say like they're pushing a random and seeing what happens because he usually thinks that happens But then Do are we too different to that in particular when growing up? No Maybe that is a reinforcement look we go through Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think that it's a little different. Yeah Um, what other topics do we have that are fellowship of the link ish of interest What's this happening in our worlds? so I will always I'll shut up in 10 seconds, but I will always try to push a bit the thread of like What can we do together or what do we do together? Because I always feel like we are I mean, I don't I don't know It's a very high potential and like I always learn a lot. So they don't need to change Yet I feel that, you know, with all these opportunities we discuss and so on You know, I I sort of feel that there could be more we could be doing and my Always open offer on that front is I want to inter twinkle my note taking with your note taking Yes being everybody's And and that's part of the reason I was interested in in agora and learning more about how you've implemented it because it felt like That might be a way of doing that that that we could inter twinkle through the agora as a media as a Connective media maybe or something else, but but I'm I'm always deeply interested in doing that We haven't done it much. I don't I don't feel like my note taking is connected to anybody else's I feel like I'm sort of off on my own still doing doing this obsessive thing all the time And it would be really neat to to then be able to experiment with different ways of Talking or improving materials together or whatever Have I explained the neobooks project in this call yet? Yep. Yep I do a little refresh Yeah, because it's getting it's getting kind of interesting. We're not we're not at the point where we solved the thing yet But on mondays at 10 30 I host a call where we're busy trying to and it's just a couple of us there We're busy trying to write a book except it's a neobook. It's a different it's different from a normal book And the idea is that First of all that a book is a roll-up of nuggets That then gets spit out into book format But that those nuggets live online where each of the nuggets can be improved over time connected to Resources connected more interestingly to Conversations or could itself be the hub of a conversation around the topic that that nugget cares about. Oh good. Thank you and so And one of my ideas is that neobooks are a way of leveling up media And what I mean by level up media is I did a short video I did a youtube short that says The internet is stuck in mainstream media metaphors We basically have we have newspapers movies radio tv Uh books magazines and what else early filmmakers. That's the one right there. Yeah, thank you um, that's exactly it and and so Neobooks are one way to break through some of those boundaries and try to think differently about what a book is And using books as a shiny object because people know what books are. They're you know, very well known cultural objects But they're they're a gateway drug to the sneaky thing that's more interesting Which is the online connective participative conversation where we solve stuff together And also one last point on neobooks. Uh, they should be authored in a way and I'm finding this Challenging but not impossible To be composable and I think we've talked about composability here a bunch But they should we so neobooks should be authored such that any of the nuggets could be repurposed or reused by someone else Writing a different book So I'm writing a little node of a cluster of things around trust because I'm trying to write a neobook around design from trust To get something in the world that that actually says what I think about design from trust because it's been it's been perking around a bunch in in the ether and There's a several nuggets that are just going to explain some interesting takes on trust that could be reused by people Writing other books that happen to want to do something about trust. Similarly if you know 30 percent of all books published in 2023 will likely need to explain chat gpt Wouldn't it be cool if there were a series of very beautifully done nuggets that could be reused and and there's a there's a taboo In book publishing and I may be overstating this but I don't think I am There's a taboo toward reuse like the idea that one or three chapters of this newly published book Might already have existed as chapters in the world Is not supposed to be a thing because books should be completely original works And I'm like no that's stupid a book is just a path through a bunch of ideas And if I know that I've read these three chapters then I can just check them off and say gosh, I know those already great I want to see what else this person is saying And so for instance one of the people writing a neobook in our little calls on monday's is claus mager Who is a a guy who's done lots of food service in in his life and then retired out and realized that Oh my god, all the stuff I've been doing in food service was screwing up the world Uh and is now trying to fix that through regenerative ag So he's writing a quick first book a neobook around regenerative agriculture But he wants to apply Spiral dynamics as the model for how to figure out what to say to what audience is and I'm not a giant spiral dynamics fan But it's a totally interesting quest and he's using chat tpt to generate a lot of his text So it's gotten really interesting and we have a in google docs We have a manuscript partly because claus is not handy at using obsidian Which is the thing I'm using to try to edit the individual nuggets And so I could easily envision and I probably won't take time to do it Somebody else writing a book taking the first half of his book and then saying yes, but let's use the What's the name of the the couple that do the logical reasoning framework? I'm I'll look it up, but Let's use a different framework than spiral dynamics to go figure out what to do And those books coexist In a family or a suite of books that are trying to solve the problem just in different ways And and and each champion of a different Output or outcome or method would then be the author of that separate neobook But they would all be in community because they're all trying to solve the same problem Sorry for the long winded explanation, but that's I'm trying to figure out different ways of leveling up our media And that's an important one for me Make sense I am all for that um and I guess a The idea I will discuss the idea of like turning paths through digital gardens or rains Into other kinds of representations and maybe like this idea of like going from you know Like a nugget or snippet to like a note to essay To chapter or whatever the pipeline is in either direction because of course as a reader You may go from someone else's essay into your own note and so on so these sort of like graph of like The the byproducts of our um understanding mutual understanding is fascinating and on the neobooks project I um I will read we needed to see I think you mentioned that you were trying to write a few of those already And those are not in the relate wiki. They're in the ogm wiki Oh So the new pages i've just been adding are not in the relate wiki, which is I hate wiki boundaries That's another issue we should talk about someday, but real quick. What do you mean by wiki boundaries? I know so I I had something that'll as a question that will pull it all together and I think oh my god go for it. So Jerry your problem while you're in the brain is For me, it's all out of sight is out of mind, right? So I have built into some of my own personal wiki pages Links that as I scroll down the page Encourage me to go look at the agara and what's there what's available because that even having your own wiki It's tough to get into the habit and practice of Searching my own database first And through a lot of work and a lot of practice. I've gotten very good at it and that by itself is super helpful But it also becomes more helpful to have the road sign In my way to say hey go see What these other people who I know and trust and think are doing interesting work are doing? So how do you when you open up the brain? Where is your signpost that says? Don't just live here, but go look and see what is on wikipedia. What is on relate? What is on open global mind? Or in the agara which are In each one of those have their own boundaries And you have to leave one to go to the other Versus if you're Or yeah, if you well, but no So what I you know, I may have something that ends up in the agara, but where I work daily And you have you have that benefit so you don't notice it as much flossing because you're working in it natively Yeah, so you see it How do other people Get is that same affordance? How does jerry's brain get that affordance? You can take data out of the brain and put it into the agara But that doesn't mean jerry's seeing it or has the ability to interact with it So how do you build that ui? To help foster that to happen one quick answer that i'll pass to funcione I I feel like one of the major reasons why I love the brain so much is that it gives me that neighborhood perspective where I use the brain and I refer to it constantly as a first source And Whenever flancyon would post something or somebody else write the essay or you write a blog post or whatever I connected in and I try to reduce the number of links you have to traverse to get between any of these things So I try to make it And I only the brain has the ability to display second degree links But it winds up as little tiny text that totally crowds the screen. It's not that useful So I need things to be one degree visible But that neighborhood visibility is as a really important attribute to me And I feel like most tools don't give you that because you're always in a document And it might have links to other documents, but you're not seeing the collection of documents You're in one document, which is like a wiki page And so a lot of my links go out to wikipedia pages, for example, which I really like But but the neighborhood concept is super important That's one of the affordances you get out of having a paper based Zettelkasten like lumen when you go look at something Usually you're looking at two or three or more cards Really quickly and you're seeing these are the ideas that live in the same neighborhood as the one I'm looking for I need to watch somebody's video of a better experience of zettelkasten because all I know of it is that there's an coding of links to other cards on a card But I don't know of the mutual viewing of a bunch of different cards automatically somehow. I would love that Yeah, most Most digital products don't do it. You can force Obsidian has a version of it But like the brain you have to say Only show me things one link away from this and you have to actively either have that open Or force it to be open to see it to see those and Most people are not doing You know The the paper version um So you don't You wouldn't see me have that experience. Although I have that same experience and In the analog version of for what you're talking about and to me that is hugely valuable And a nice setup or when I go to the agarra You know flauntian's got a little mini graph at the bottom that will show me and quite often you just out of curiosity I'll look at that graph What else is out there that I ought to look at or should look at So that becomes one of those signposts that says Maybe you might want to go this direction or that direction that you would never have seen or known Those were directions that were even possible And this is a really nice use case for generative ai by the way as a listener function So so I thought of what are the ways in which generative ai could be helpful to my me and my brain But in general like having a generative ai seeing what you're doing and then going hey, did you know There's this stuff out there that you might not have thought out that that's a terrific use And also like a credible time sink Yeah, right, right Yeah, but like a like a smart clippy Yeah Um Yes, a huge plus one on like I really like the idea of this or locality and the final locality The community the final locality so I can think of two pointers here or two connections one Related to the previous thread on comments on the internet and how like each comment forum Each comment like section developed into forum and newspapers and so on with characters and so on and In a hierarchy or like a status and so on um I think of hypothesis uh, of course things like as well as a um These comments provided that was actual comments. Uh, who was all the rage like 10 years ago of his team Using gravata. I forget the name But you know, you you could essentially plug in a comment section on any page using an i-frame or And in the sense of like bring your own comments or bring your own annotations Yeah, yeah, thank you. I'll discuss so It didn't turn out so well. I guess somehow it was like I think it was commercialized and they work. I work out but like hypothesis still there He's still a fan still feel that a He has a little potential and you know, it's you know, we need to get it there but in the sense of like There's clearly a need for people to Because that's why they use the sections when they are available still To actually have this community You know, like it's interesting an article interesting on a page Right by definition. These are people who are share something. They're interesting what they're reading So there's so much so much potential there that you know, maybe each newspaper each Western internet Actually actually doesn't it's in stuff to To holes because of the moderation Tags and so on but you know when you bring your own community I'm thinking of like, you know, if we all agree to use hypotheses or even a particular hypothesis server And if that is easy so everybody can do that, maybe The experience we could have going to a site and seeing that you knowing that you can have Conversations in a safe space actually not only a space associated with a page, but also a safe space, right? And I think that's completely untapped essentially And I'm going back to the physical location to close The this idea of this is the custom, you know, like the index card that jay sent or, you know, the context in in a graph of links and There's like the One of the things I wanted to explore the hour hour like that many was, you know, what is left and right of a web page What is above and below what is You know on the third dimension Overlaid The browser is being set, you know, like we have tabs. We got tabs sure And then somehow you why it's like seems like they stop annoying browser providers So we have a some extensions we care all the time and, you know, We it's not clear, you know, what is around each page precisely You have to go out of the page and say search at google or being or whatever to find another page related But somehow the browsers don't actually surface related gondola anything or like in lingo And that seems like a huge opportunity, you know, like To like just explore with ui, I guess But I plus one two new books essentially Maybe good Could we do the maybe next call we could an exercise in like Turning to draft one or I don't know how it works. That'd be cool. Um after Yeah, so, um I can sort of do a guided tour of where I think we're I think we are we're trying to come up with a short book That is nuggetized in some sense sort of deconstructed and the irony is that you could go from a Google Docs draft straight to some kind of output And make a book no big deal But I'm trying to add in the extra step of deconstructing the draft or writing originally in smaller chunks Which is the way I'm I'm going about it But but the two other people who are in these conversations neither of them is is a real Obsidian fan or And and they're not thinking as much in chunks as I am so The other question that comes up a lot is gosh, am I am I working too hard on this in a way that nobody else is ever going to want to do like You know Because writing chunkily or writing wickily or thinking wickily is a little bit of an art Anyway But I could sort of do a walkthrough and then our arm is mentioning hypothesis and I was like It's funny that I've installed hypothesis. I never use it It's open source. It should be a place where we can meet and connect and and sort of connect our notes and stuff like that But somehow weirdly it isn't Why is it not more of a glue for us? I've never heard of anyone self-host. I mean, I'm sure If there's a way I guess maybe there's a way I just was unaware that you could self-host A hypothesis server. I'm less worried about self-hosting than I am about just the use of hypothesis in general Well, but that's why I am resistant to use I think this is open source and you can download and compile and run your own server And I know a handful of people who do Oh, okay, cool, but the technical hurdle of doing it and maintaining it is Pretty high not like the admin taxes Not super great, but I what you're saying with neobooks reminds me and I put a link to a jpeg into the chat And it's a photo from a time magazine. No life magazine in 1948 of on either side the two big people are Mortimer Adler and Robert Hutchins and the 26 people who Compiled the 102 great ideas. So in front of them is their shared wiki written on index cards and cataloged by group And then Adler and several of them then use that to create articles That then made the two the volume two and volume three the centopic on that was part of the 54 book, you know great books the western world series But essentially they were taking excerpts of Books that they were reading and writing notes on them and then filing them And then as a group they were pulling those things out and collating them per box to write long articles on those topics so they were sorting Going through all the slips that were in the box and then turning them into articles that were well indexed Against all the rest of the books that followed um But it then allowed them to as a group create a neo book But they were doing this in the 19 the early 1940s and then ultimately released their book Books in 1952. I think super interesting And this is more to my heart always project Yeah, so this was the great books of the western world that um Encyclopedia Britannica put out Pretty sure I have a link to that actual article. I think it's online. It took me ages to find it very interesting It's it's a version of Neo books. It's just was done in index card format. Yeah One of the things that occurred to me Sort of only recently Maybe it's occurred to me a couple different times But it really snapped into place recently was that what I'm doing in the brain And what some of the rest of us are doing in note taking is we are feeding the noosphere We are building the encyclopedia galactica of the foundation series We are writing indra's net. We are like there's three or four or five big and beautiful The glass bead game maybe from magister ludi But you know, I'm a yes. Yeah from hesse There's a bunch of really like large-scale epic Stories and a few kind of attempts at creating this this big encyclopedia And I like those I I feel like, you know, the noosphere is where I'm operating I'm what a tagline I I I'm playing with is explorer of the noosphere Yeah And I think that that there's something interesting there because um no sphere is Is it like this it's like this flimsy meme? It gets pointed to a lot by people who don't really understand what it meant or what it means or what its potential is But it's Familiar enough to be in the flow And I don't know if that's a if that's a drawback or a benefit. What do y'all? I I've read it and looked at it, but my initial gut reaction of no sphere may Explain why it's a weird. It sounds like who who weird like I don't know what new age crystals that It doesn't sound the name is does not sound serious enough that I want to spend more than a minute looking into it interesting But the idea of what it is is actually supremely interesting. It just has a horrible name. I think Because you know This reminds me that there's a very promising project called no sphere already By ground or condom. This reminds me as in I wrote this down at some point Like uh, Gordon brander who would be an interesting person, right? And yeah, he's building the noosphere protocol Exactly. Yeah, he's one of the people who understands it much better than most And is busy building this out And it comes from a like T-suite priest I'm gonna yeah, yeah. Yeah, jesuit priest Also, uh, vladimir vernadsky another interesting character He also he was he was talking about so let me uh, I don't think I can do an easy screen share here But uh, here's a link to vernadsky my brain. He also came up with noocracy, which was aristocracy of the wise So here's the link There we go Oh, the yeah the no sphere versus the newest sphere. Sorry. I just saw your comment. Yeah in So I will be happy to to explore like any UI allowances that make an It easier to work on a new something I want to To mention So for example, like if you yeah, if you come up if you have an example fragments from which you would like to assemble I don't think it will be very hard to Assemble an hour for example that just shows them as chapters one after the other Like for example, like, you know, the hour already has pools Especially, you know Whenever you pull something above like Gordon brander or through conscious it shows up below as in a reading list so Just like having a note that pulls all the other notes will result in them being rendered in the right order You can achieve the same in a obsidian with embeds But this will let you embed things which are in other gardens or in other in other wikis At the risk of bringing bringing in yet another complex idea. Is this an interesting use of transclusion? This is a little bit of a solution. Yes Yeah It's an inclusion but well the hour I tried to bring out in the whole notes Essentially everything about x gets brought up when you transcribe x I mean very very simple good and and what I the part of this that I'm most Fascinated by or interested in is how it causes us to think and collaborate differently To think that there could be richly inter twingled documents that are being updated in different ways Through which we can figure out what we know that that's my goal kind of is to help us know what we know and then push those ideas further In the sense that well, we don't know everything So what are the questions that come out of this particular experiment over here? Let's set up experiments. Let's set up conversations with experts Let's you know debate this so that we can come up with a point of view that's well Supported by whatever we think supports it and then mash that up against somebody who has a very different point of view Yeah Good totally pivot for a moment as we're running low on time and I gotta leave pivot away Flancy and I put in a pr to add context center to the angora. I was wondering if it was working Oh, cool because I don't know if you noticed or if I lost track of it or I'm looking at my open pr's and I don't know what I what happened to it Oh, yeah, I remember we are from you for the hour of the link Yeah, and I Didn't make it there. It should have A oh no because I didn't restart it. But yes, I did I did merge it apologies for not getting back to you I merged it right And I think it should be a very low After we speak All right, I'm curious if it works. I found it. I found the merge. I don't know what I Yeah, it should be here Um In link, all right, because I think you have to link to our link as you know, thank you so much But I was a I complex switch before finishing the task Which was I know I need to just go and restart the hour as it picks up the new users It's like very as simple as that you have to restart All right I'm not sure if it'll work and maybe you've got once you try it out Maybe give me a feedback that says hey this works. Thank you I'm curious on trying to join it in there. Um, but I'm not sure if my format needs more Detail or some other changes or something like that. I I took a look and I don't think so but yes, I will gladly do so Thank you so much. Yeah Sounds awesome. Yeah, cool. And I will um, so I'll sort of pick this up and offer to do a demo of neobooks next time we talk To just show you what's where the piece we haven't done yet is when we've done real quick. I gotta drop I do want the demo of neobooks. Cool. Yes, thanks. All right. Well, thanks so much um, cool and uh, the place where we haven't gotten to yet is rolling up a bunch of nuggets and Squeezing them out as a book looking thing. So that's right still on the horizon You know, you can do I guess your um, you know, pandoc for margaret down to margaret down to Yeah You are talking grease or I've needed for the dog and forgot. Oh there you go It would be actually interesting to even just to be able to take pages from the agara And create a playlist from that that would then spit out a book bingo And that would be that would be an alternate alternate platform for making neobooks And then if the neobooks could share nuggets because you're pulling in the same nugget that i'm pulling in in a different way Yeah, now we're like right on top of why this matters and and how it's cool Right, that'd be good. Yeah, I thought for a while Because right now you have to write in the agara say pull these and these and these But that requires you to write a new note But I thought of adding a ui that just lets you like pick the notes you want to add and then let's you render. Yeah Yeah, I they do it in It's a javascript implementation, but you can do custom searches in tiddly wiki That allow you to pull out A certain list of cards and then you can reorder them And then the url itself for that thing Then provides you the automatic playlist of Read these things and read them in this order like a star and then you can branch off of them if you wish Yeah, right We have discussed that even as you click through you could have like a url It's sort of like it happens in fed week as well Yeah, where you were cutting him smallest wiki Right the fed wiki fork or fed wiki. I always think of the older name, but yeah, you can pull in the pieces from other people's wiki is and then kind of But there isn't that sense of let's make it in this order or Transverse it in this order. Right, right Right and and traversing things in a serial order is a stupid handicap But that's what leads the books, right? But then but then being liberated of the stupid serial order is what happens when you go to the nugget that's alive on the web That's what's cool about Making making the link and also there's there's the power of narrative and narrative is a serial act Mostly except for like interactive drama or whatever else, but that didn't work that well But but the act of storytelling is choosing the path Yeah, I guess I choose your adventure and button languages, right will be the The closer to like an interlink good, no Well, I had a conversation last night with another mathematician Who was entering an area of math that he wasn't super familiar with? And he's you know, still a very young guy too. So I said Go back and find an upper level undergraduate textbook Because it'll have all the definitions and the theorem proof stuff, but it'll have under each one a whole bunch of examples That you're never going to find in a graduate level textbook All that stuff kind of gets crunched up and hidden and they either expect you're going to come up with your own To practice and play around with whatever the page you're on So if you know, it's that idea of Here's a path through the material A Longer path through the material at the undergraduate level, but the graduate level Can catnates that path and crunches it down and takes out all the other bits of context and all the other You know little cards that would be in your book Because they either assume you already know it or you would be doing that yourself um So in fact I actually pulled two of them out so You know This book is super thick And has a lot of dense, you know material But this is the undergraduate textbook and the equivalent in this Would be you know the first 20 pages. Wow, so our first 20 pages are all in here But you know, they just take the cleanest shortest straightest path through the material Wow Oh, that's cool The expansion of contraction of knowledge But that then also let you move through a lot more stuff a lot more quickly um, I think ted nelson had another idea of zippered lists Uh and also expanded expanding texts And this is a little bit like this is a little bit like expanding texts There's also the notion of and by the way all this generative AI makes this really easy Rero, I don't know about really easy, but rewriting all this stuff for different grade levels Mm-hmm Right. So so so paraphrase this for fourth graders or uh, you know, yeah You have you read me of seven songs the diamond age a long ago Yeah, so there's these ladies primer Exactly. Yeah Young ladies primer One of the interface to the nulls here Yeah Yep, I'm gonna add that to my notes for the call today Okay Thanks so much Looking forward to discussing maybe this possible new book Yeah, cool Thank you. Maybe we could make a little mini one next time too. Uh-huh. Yes Yeah, sounds great the new book of the friends of the link. Yes That'd be really interesting which we could then use to get other people to join us. Yeah Hmm, exactly It could be a spoof of the fellowship, of course Of the rain, right? So, you know, if you want to make it like really right Who wants to be so wrong? I think uh, plenty of people want to be thrown outside of this group Yeah Actually, yeah, we could have fun there. Yeah, totally. We have fun. We're good This gives us a bunch to think about between now and next next Wednesday. Yeah. Thank you so much Thank you very much Totally. Thanks. Yes. Totally fun. Yes. See you next week. All right. Have fun as well. Yes