 Pwy fawr o'r ddwy, rwy'n cael y gwaith o Tom. Yn amlwg. Rydyn ni. Fy yw'r cwestiynau? Dwy, fel fawr. Rydyn ni. Rydyn ni. Rydyn ni'n fan o sut i'r digotol hograin, I'n y fawr yw'r oed bethau a i'r ddweud i'r ddweud i'r ddweud o'r ddweud i'r ddweud i'r ddweud i'r ddweud i'r ddweud i'r gweith. Mae'r rhaid i'r ffordd ychydig o'r cymdeithas iawn i'r llai llai'r ymddangos. Mae'r ysgol y gallwn yn ffordd ymddangos. Rwy'n meddwl â'r hon i'r digital. Rwy'n meddwl â'r digital, ym 2007, mae'r hyn yn ymgyrch yn ymgyrch â'r 9 oed. Mae'r cymdeithas ymgyrch yn ymgyrch yn ymgyrch yn ymgyrch. Mae'n meddwl â'r London, Felly ti'n gwybod poblчиad ar y cyfroeddiad oedd maen nhw'n gweld cyfieithio'r adiau hwnny yn ymweld. A'r rydyn ni'n cael ei gwybod jyrwledd ond mae'r ad define tyddur hefyd nesaf am rhai cyfroeddiad... ...baen nesaf am y dda. Yn cael y ddechrau Fenithydd, dwi lleif yn dyn nhw'n cael eu ddylu ac rydyn ni'n cael ei fod yn ôl. Dwi'n ddim yn y gallu hwych yn adrodd ar gyfer eu dynod. Felly rydyn ni'n mynd o'n ddyn nhw'n cael eu ddylch yn dda. Fynwysiaddu, nes yw'n rhywbeth gwagddwch eich gilydd, ond nid oes nawr, waith ymwysydd rydyn ni'n gwelio na lwy chefs. Yn hyn, y gallwn o fynd i'r prifael i'r language wrth dedin ni, oherwydd cyfleoedd hynny, bynnag y gallwn o'r reilu a'r ysgrifennu, ond darparol mewn website-n mlynedd i gymrif o'r newid, y stadig html, a wir wedi gael ymall, Yn hyd ymysgrifeni a'r rhannu, mae ymlaen i ysgrifennu Ebony, a don ble mae'n gwybodaeth i'n fydd ac mae'r cliybion nawr hefyd ni'n gwybodaeth i'n gwybodaeth i ymgyrch yn banyddol. A ganddo na chi dden nhw'n fyrwyr i'r cyffreddau i'r gwaith. Mae rhai'n wych, mae roeddwn ni'n fydd yn ei fyddy. Mae'n gwybodaeth i'r cyffreddau yn cyd-diowwyr i'r cyffreddau yn dweud y tro byddwn ni fydd yn cael ei gweithio. Rydym chi'n gwybod ni'n fydda i ddigon. Ond yn gofio i'r cliybion, os oedd yn gweithio, A cymryddiwch i'n fwy o'ch ddweud y cyd-mwythiant, gallwn ddweud eich cyfan, i ddweud o'r ddweud, i ddweud o'r ddweud, i ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud, i ddweud o'r ddweud, i ddweud o'r ddweud, i ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud, i ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud. Rwy'n gydag i'n gweithio'r companyau. Mae hwn wedi gweld ymddangos ymddangos a'r gweithio'u ein bod yn gweld. lle mae'n ffordd o'r ffordd y bydden nhw'n gwybod dwi'n ddechrau'r oedd daeth gweithio'r dwi'n ddweud. A oeddwn i'n ffio'r ardalion y wordpress, yn gyfnodol yn cyfrifol. Rydyn ni'n gweithio'n mynd i, nad ydym ni'n gweithio mynd i'r team i'n gweithio'n gweithio'r dweud, oherwydd, felly, ychydig yw'n gweithio'r cyfrifoedd cyfrifol yma, I strong, ond rydyn ni'n dweud hynny yn fwy fyddaeth losi'r unig gennau'i gweithio. Oes ymddill, mae'r unig yn gweithio wouldau ar eich llaw sy'n nod i'n gwneud y ddechrau i gyda'u gyfrifio. Rwy'n arddangos i'r unig i Irish a'r Uniseff. Nad yw'r unig i'r unig i'r unig i'r umsgrif iawn. A phobl iawn yw i'r unig i'r unig i'r unig i'r unig i'r unig i'r unig i'r unig i'r umsgrif iawn. gyda gyda'r cymdeithas yng nghylch. Mae'n fnwysgrif iawn. Gael gweld y gallwn gwahanol, yn credu y gallwn gwahanol, mae'n gwahanol, mae'n dweud amser yn ceisio ac mae'n gallu ganddau. Gelfwyd yn gweld yma'r gysylltu mae'n ddefnyddio'r peth. Mae'n ddefnyddio'n gysylltu ag ybod. Dyna ddechrau'r gysylltu. Mae'n ddefnyddio'r gysylltu. Mae'n ddefnyddio'r gysylltu'n gwybod, mae'n ddefnyddio'n gysylltu a bod y gallai amser nid o'r cyffredinol i gael a bywyd y proses of felly a ymddangos unig rhan conflux of interesse. Llei gyfo'r peir o'r tawr cyffredinol a chyfnodol o delonwyr ceithio'n cysyllt. Rydyn ni'n cread ar gaf llwylliant cyffredinol ymhynghwys yna sy'n trwy lle eich dyml iawn o ddau strategiaeth, rydych chi'n ei wrtho inni oedd o nefyd, y gallai sydd y lle yn ein rhaid. Yn ddau, cyffredinol y pethau yna yma eich hoffi wedi cael eu wneud yn ei wneud. ydych chi'n cyflwyno'n gweithio? Mae'n cyflwyno'n gweithio datblygu llei'n gwybod. Felly mae wedi bod yn amlwg arall sy'n beth o'r ysgrifennu cyflwyno a'r cyflwyno'n gweithio. Mae'n rhaid i ddweud o'r arddangosol a'r rhaid i ddweud o'r cyflymu. Felly, y cael ei gweithio arall yn cael ei gweithio bod yn cael ei gweithio arall o'r âddangosol i'r ysgrifennu. Mae'n cael ei ddweud o'r cyflwyno, Wrth mynd i chi'n ystod o'r cyflwyfiad nhw wedi clwyr cyddiannau'r iawn i mi, ond ymlaen i chi yw rai ei gael. Ac roeddwn i'r cyflwyfiad phaith hwn o'r cyflwyfiad yn rhan mi'n mynd i chi ac roeddwn i ni. Wrth i chi, mae'n rhaid i'n mynd i chi'n cyflwyfiadho ar gweithio'r cyflwyfiad. Ond rhoi'r cyflwyfiad, mae'n cyfrifiad hynny ddweud dweud. Rwy'n credu'n cyflwyfiad cyflwyfiad ywiau llawer hyn appearance ond, Yn ni i'n ceisio yno gyda chi ddweud y boesiaid yn unrhyw o'r cyfrannu, y Mwneud y ffodus ychydig yn y ddweud y 0. Yn ni i'n cyfrannu Fabyo Tualini, mae efoedd yn dyma i ddweud y pethau ar ysbwrdd hon, a mae hefyd yn ei wneud â'ch beth oedd wrth gwaith oes ymddangos. Mae ychydig o'r top rhai, rydyn ni arno gwyrraedd, rydyn ni'n sefydlu'n gweld rydyn ni'n rhaid digwydd, yw'r ffordd i ddechrau y sgol. Ac mae gennydd eich gwrs yn gweithio gwirio a diweddio'r prosol a ddechrau'r roedd yn fawr. Rwy'n dweud i'w netwgwch, rwy'n dweud fwy netwgwch, ac mae gennym ni wedi gweithio i ffyrdd y gweith i'w gwneud a gwneud i'w cyfnod o'r holl yn ymdyn nhw. Rwy'n dweud i'w netwgwch, mae'n amser yn yw'r cyfrwys ac mae'r wneud i weld i'w wneud i'w gweithio'r holl. a we don't pay for referrals. This comes back to this conflict of interest, if you're paying people for referrals they are going to recommend you whether you are the right fit or not. They are going to send you clients that you shouldn't be working with. At the end of the day you want people to refer you because you're good not because they are going to give you money for it. You are going behind your clients back. iddyn ni'n ei wneud iddyn nhw. Mae gennych chi ddweud y dwelladol ar gyfer y gokal.. ..aso'r 컬러� a ddewch ar yr yrwyl yn gwneud y taethau yma. Felly, mae'n siarad drafodaeth i'r rhaglenoedd cyffredinol.. ..y'r cl seasonedau ar y llai, a dderbyn arnynt. Felly y gallai rhoi y gallai gwneud yng Nghymru. Ond yna'r clenedau sydd yn wych yn eu gwneud yno. Dwi ych yn oed frugwyr ymlaen. Cefiwn i'n rheswm am canol. mae'r cydano argonwys a eich cerdwyn iawn. Ac mae'n fwrdd i'r cydano a'r cydano, byddwn ni'n gweithio eu hir meddwl, mae'n bwysig losio ni'n gwyfwng y cwrs. Mae oeddwn ni'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio a'n mynd mewn i'r ffugir el-fais ac mae'n ddweud i'r cydano arnyn ati. Ond genell bod yn gweithio, mae'n mynd i'n gweithio'n... felly rwy'n byw'n gweithio'n gweithio'n ffordd. Mae'n ffrindio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Fy gynnyddio'n gweithio'n gweithio y ddweud o gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio, a'n dweud o'r ddweud o adrolygu. Mae'r mynd i'r cyffredin edrych yn ei bod yn blynyddu, mewn cyllideb yn ei parwydau, sy'n gweithio yn gweld i'r cyffredin, mae'r wych yn ddiddordeb yn amser. That, in itself, is enough to grow your business and and how you win big name clients is largely not just about how you get new clients but how you keep your existing clients happy, how you make them love you so that not only do they come back and they want to work with you more but they tell other companies about you who then want to work with you and similarly. ropeep business. People always think this is about gettingquarter mwy from the same company is often about getting regulars. seron patients surye mwy mwy mwy with a marketing manager in a big company and they hired for a project Ond ydym, rydym ddweud y firsti, ac ydym i gyd yn ymgyrch, a anywch â sgwr yn ei gwreun iawn yw a gwahanol am y ll chi ddechrau hwnnw, i fried peth peth. Ydw i angen y gweithi mae'r rhai symud yn y ddweud sy'n gwybodaeth gael y dyfodol. Mae'n ddechrau rhywbeth yn gallu bod yn gilydd. On i wnaeth y gallu gwneud yr unrhyw gweithiau? A mae'r ychydig gweithlu, yn y cefnodd yr wylen. Felly mi fflau i'r gwir yw'r peth. Felly, rhai i syniad ddwy nid gwirionedd y cyfle i fynd yn ei ddyddgiad a fyddwn mor ddwy i'r ddwy, ond oes ein hwn ar ei awrser, gallwch i ddifenio'r gyffredin allan, a ni'n ch朗wch iddyn nhw'n ddigwyddio. Dim rhai ddiddorol datblyguol a ni'n ddiddorol. Ac mae yna ddiddorol yn credu mewn ein ddigwyd yn edrych, a i fynd yn dod i ddiddorol. Yn nifrhaid, gallen ni'n ddiddorol mewn cyfraith. No one's ever going to hire you. No one hires you on that day. Unless you really trust yourself and believe in yourself, no one's going to hire you. Start with loving yourself and then as you build a team around you, you've got to love that team. You've got to really have faith in them. There's a reason why you hired them. You hired them because you think they're great people, you think they're talented, you know that they're brilliant at what they do and that they're trustworthy and you know that they care about your clients. And that really brings on to the important part which is loving your clients because sometimes you know as an agency or even as a freelancer you can have a sort of awkward relationship with your clients. You know sometimes you don't necessarily agree with them or there's awkward things in terms of payment terms, all sorts of awkwardness. But you've always got to look at them from the point of view that ultimately you love them because without them you would not exist. Your business would not exist, your livelihood would not exist and these exciting projects that you're working on would not exist. So you've always got to keep that in mind that you love your clients and hope that your team also really shares that love of the clients. And then love the world because people trust people that care about stuff, that care about more than just money and they might not really care about the things that you care about but it shows integrity. So I'll go into a few specifics. So the first of these is listen. So any good relationship really listening is the foundation of any good relationship whether it's a business relationship or a personal relationship. And clients love people who listen. It's so easy to go into a client and think that I'm the expert, that's why they're hiring me and I'm just going to tell them what they need. But actually to know what they need you've got to sit down and spend time with them and really listen to what they need, listen to what they're saying because it might not be obvious. They might not be the same as the last client you work with and they're almost certainly not. Treat them as humans. So this is really specific, this is true with all clients but it's really specific when you move from working with small businesses to working with bigger companies, a lot of people they look up to them and think like somehow they're different because they're from a big company and they've got fancy titles and at the end of the day everybody's a human so the way that you engage with those people in big companies really doesn't need to be any different from the way you engage with a one man band because they're a human, they want you to treat them like a human, they want you to treat them like an equal. If you look up to them and you treat them in that way you create an imbalance in the relationship where actually they might end up thinking you're not very good because you think they're so much above you whereas actually like a relationship if you're married you're equals and you're working together to create something better. Treat them as humans, treat them as equals and they'll really like working with you. Treat everyone well and it sounds obvious but whatever the circumstances are just treat people well and sometimes this might mean awkward circumstances where maybe you actually don't like working with a client and you don't want to work with them anymore but your reputation depends on everybody respecting you even when things get tough. So you might have situations where you have to get rid of a client but handle it in a nice way whereby actually you explain to them why you're doing it and why it's actually probably best for them as well as you and they might go away from those awkward situations actually having more respect for you than they did before. Be honest, so honesty is really really important and I think particularly, I don't think this is really true so much in the WordPress world but maybe in the wider agency world honesty is something that clients struggle to get from an agency because partly when we're going back to the sales thing in terms of people just want to sell them stuff and they're really scared that people are just going to flog them whatever the most expensive thing they can sell. So honesty is really the foundation of earning these, winning these big name clients and often that means admitting your own flaws. So when clients talk to an agency, every agency wants to say they're brilliant, every agency wants to say they're perfect and if you're a small agency like Holgrain and you're bidding against bigger, more established agencies saying that you're perfect doesn't really work because they know that probably you don't have the resources that the bigger agencies have, but they also know that you're probably really really good at some things and by admitting your own flaws, by admitting what you're not good at, you're earning trust that the things you say that you are good at you are actually good at that and if they're going to hire you they're probably only going to hire you for that specific thing like you're not going to take over like the entire management of like Marks and Spencer's IT system you know they're going to go to a massive company like Capita that has the resources and the infrastructure to do that but if they want a specific niche project that's focused in your skill set then by actually admitting that like please don't hire us for that stuff we're rubbish at it but this stuff, this is what we do day in, day out they buy into that and they can see how actually the specialism of you as a small agency really has value for them. So related to honesty is just admitting your own mistakes I think every agency, every designer, developer makes mistakes you know like we don't do every project perfectly but when you do screw up you can actually come out of that either by losing a client you can come out with a damaged reputation or you can come out with a better client relationship and that client stays with you for so long and does more work with you it's all about how you handle it and just putting your hand up and saying we screwed up we're really sorry this is what happened we've learned from our mistakes we're going to put it right and we're going to work our socks off to put it right and give you what you need it really earns their respect and you know we've had clients through we have screwed up their projects you know I'm not going to say we haven't but it's in the minority of cases and when it does happen those clients often end up being our best long-term clients because they know that actually you know we're going to stick by them sell less so this comes back to sales people clients fear that the agency is just going to try and sell them things that they don't need and often we downsell clients so a client might come in and they say look this is what we think we need and we've got a budget of 25,000 pounds and you know they're almost laying it on a plate for you and we go through the requirements we listen to what they need and we say no that's not what you need maybe you only need to spend 5 or 10,000 pounds or maybe you don't need to spend any money with us at all you can do this yourself we're going to tell you what you need to do you go away and do it and you're turning down money on a plate but then you've built a really strong relationship with that client they really trust you they really respect you and they still got that money in their marketing budget so once they've done that thing that you've told them how to do themselves or you've done that smaller project and they didn't need to spend that full budget they often come back and they say well actually we've got these other ideas we've been thinking about and we've got this money left in our budget how about we do that together and we've won a lot of big name clients by downselling rather than upselling be helpful so just go out of your way to be helpful when there's nothing in it for you so I think we're all trying to be helpful as agencies when we know that we've promised the client something and we wanted to give them a really good service but sometimes there just is nothing in it for you and a good example of that is like hosting we don't sell hosting but we give clients a huge amount of free advice about hosting we don't charge them for the time we just care about the fact that hosting is so important they need to be on a really good hosting solution that's specific for their needs and often they just don't have a clue because that's not their skill set either and we can guide them through that process and they really appreciate the help and that helps facilitate a really strong relationship with them do your best so always give 100% even if you think it isn't good enough and even if you think that the client isn't worth it and I think this is really important to stress because sometimes you end up with clients where maybe you misquoted them or you misunderstood them or you just didn't know what they were like to work with or you kind of had that gut feeling that maybe we shouldn't take on this client but then for some reason you did and then you realise after the event that actually gut feeling was right which we're not the right fit it doesn't mean that you shouldn't give it 100% they've hired you, you promised them 100% so you give them 100% and that might mean that at the end of the project you sit down with them and you have a really frank conversation about how did it go, how was it happy do we want to continue to do more together but if you always give them 100% of your best effort of what you've promised them they'll respect you for it and even if they don't choose to work with you again they might recommend you to other people and say look they weren't the right fit for us but for you guys they'd be brilliant so doing your best is really important and I think I mentioned this a minute ago but don't give up on them perseverance counts for a lot and when you do really complex projects there are always things that you just didn't see coming and particularly in terms of technical challenges and when you really stick at it and give it everything that it takes to get through those challenges get through those dips and come out the other side those clients really appreciate it and that's part of the reason they go to an agency because they trust that actually there's resilience in an agency it's a team and it doesn't matter what happens that team is somehow going to find a way of meeting the requirements and delivering their needs and a lot of clients especially if they've bigger companies maybe they've worked with freelancers or contractors before they could hire a contractor and he might be brilliant he might drop out and their project's just stranded or they might hire a freelancer and then he falls sick or he drops off the radar one of the reasons companies go to agencies is because of that resilience that they believe in the power of the team and that they're going to get through it's easy to do a project when everything's simple but they want to know that you're going to get through the hard times and you're going to come out on the other side and deliver what they want it so if you can prove that to them they'll stick with you for their next project so forgive them Clients are never perfect and you need to accept their weaknesses so there's loads of things that clients don't know about websites and I think sometimes we can get frustrated that they don't give us their content on time or they don't understand how things work but actually that's not their job to know these things that's our job and it's not our they accept our weaknesses so we have to accept theirs and work with them and realise that if we can focus on overcoming their weaknesses they'll enjoy working with us it'll be a pleasure to work with us and we won't have that frustration it'll just be a sort of more zen, enjoyable project for everybody don't use jargon I think we all use jargon because it's just kind of the industry working we don't even realise it's jargon and we use things like UI and UX and IA and we're like yeah we know what they mean but a lot of clients they just don't have a clue what you're talking about and some of them they won't say it they won't tell you that they don't know what you're talking about they'll just be confused and they'll just go away and maybe they'll end up hiring somebody else because they had a meeting with you or a call with you and they're like I don't know what that guy's talking about I'm going to hire these other guys because they understand them so you want to be those other guys who they understand who talk to them in their own language and sometimes their own language might mean using jargon sometimes you get clients that come in and they're using jargon that even you don't understand you've got to google it and try to figure out what they're saying but just talk to them in their own language and they'll feel like you're on the same wavelength and they'll want to work with you so treat them as a partner I think it's very easy to have an attitude of us and them they're the client, we're the agency and you're like two separate teams but it's very important I think for like really healthy web design and development work that actually you look at it is like no this is one project so there's one team and there's people from your company on the project and there's people from our company on the project and we're all working on this together and a lot of clients they really like that when you make that clear up front that they're not outsourcing it to you they're collaborating with you on the project surprise them so like in any relationship a surprise gesture is sometimes the best way to tell people that you love them so this could be simple things like just sending a client some chocolates when you really enjoy working with them or something or it might mean doing some work that you had an idea that you thought they're going to love this we're going to build this little thing for them they're only going to take us like one or two hours but we won't ask them if they want it we'll just do it and we'll give it to them because they're a good client and we think it's a nice thing to do and they'll love you for it to care about more than just money I think it's easy when you're running a business of any kind to sort of forget about the bigger picture of what you're doing and why you're doing it and just focus on revenue we've got to make money we've got to make profit but actually when you think about that bigger picture it's often you can earn respect from the client so you'll have a better relationship with the client because you put the client relationship first rather than money first but also just caring about other things so caring about the wider world caring about the environment or human rights or whatever it is you're interested in it shows the client that you're good people that you care about things and even if they don't really care about that stuff they'll at least look at you guys and think well you know they're trustworthy they've got integrity so I'm going to trust them with my money and with my project and with their reputation similarly share your passions so this comes back to what I was saying about how they treat them as humans that it's very easy to think that a professional relationship needs to be very dry and you just talk about business and you talk shop but actually if you share your passions both on an individual human level you can really start to get to know them as people and that's why when they move to their new job in another company they take you with them it's not just because you did great work for them it's because they actually enjoyed working with you as people and they got on with you so that's really important and it also attracts clients to you so if clients see that you're passionate about something those people within those companies might think well I want to work with these guys I'm interested in the same sorts of things they're interested in I like the same sort of things that they like so I'm going to pick up the phone and I'm going to have a chat with them because I think it's going to be a nice experience working with them because we're all on the same page so it gets clients in the door who are actually the type of clients that you want to work with because they're actually interested in the same things that you're interested in and then it keeps them because they enjoy working with you and then build a wholesome brand so anything that you do that's positive in your organisation just try to communicate this positive attitude at every touch point so it's not just about when you meet the client being nice to them and having a good conversation with them and listening to them it's about the way that you present your brand through your website, through the things you put on Twitter even things like terms and conditions like we had terms and conditions that have been written by a solicitor that was a friend of ours a few years back and we didn't really look at them they're just terms and conditions these sort of legal things we don't care about and they were actually really one-sided they were really arsy and they were really hard to understand and one of our clients complained about this and we didn't ever really realise and we read our own terms and conditions and we thought, my goodness this is horrible so we just rewrote them and they're probably legally completely rubbish now but but clients really like them because they've just been written by a human and they just explain this is what it means and this is why we're doing it and it's fair for you and it's fair for us and building a wholesome brand at every touch point even those touch points that you wouldn't really think of it really helps when you need those clients because you can lose a client at the point of sending them your terms and conditions they've already agreed to the project and then they're like, no, I'm not signing this so all of those things are important so to sum up to win big name clients with love you've got to be a good lover so you need to be caring you need to be passionate you need to be reliable but also spontaneous from time to time you should always be honest you need to always be yourself don't try to pretend that your agency is something that is not remember that money can't buy love so winning big name clients is about building strong relationships with them and all good relationships are based on love thank you Tom thank you very much Tom and we'll open up to the floor now if there are any questions extra services and going back to the first slides that you put up so when a project comes to an end generally it sometimes becomes clear that clients completely underestimated the need for a support and maintenance contract retainer whatever you can discuss with them until potentially even the launch of the site and it's never really been tabled potentially you've assumed that they had help elsewhere how do you go about selling that which is as we all know a solid requirement for a WordPress site which is going to need a lot of maintenance going forward without actually coming across as though you are just trying to get more money out of them yes so I mean I think part of it is having that conversation at the beginning and explaining to them why maintenance is important for WordPress and I think particularly it's difficult having that conversation about security because you don't want to scare them away from WordPress right at the beginning by talking about the fact that there are potential risks associated with it but I think if you have a really frank conversation and you explain that basically there are risks these are what they are but if you manage those risks there's nothing to worry about and this is why we're recommending that after the launch of your site you know we'll give you this maintenance plan and these are the things that we'll do to ensure that everything is safe and you're very transparent about that a lot of clients respect it and a lot of clients look at what you're saying in the maintenance plan and they'll say well okay well those are things we could do ourselves and you might you might say okay well if you're confident you can do it yourselves you know that's fine have a go at it but if you need help we're here to help and sometimes you know they go away they try it for a few months and they actually can do it themselves and that's fine sometimes they go away for a few months and then they realise you know what no one's updated anything no one's looked at anything actually that maintenance plan you're talking about and you can give them a friendly nudge and say hey guys we've noticed you haven't updated anything this is why we recommended the maintenance plan would you like to talk about it again cheers I think I saw a hand at the back any hands at the back yes thanks firstly I just wanted to kind of affirm what you said from the point of view of the client I represent the Church of England for a lot of national kind of interesting projects and we consistently and increasingly have worked with a digital agency called Blanc because they in a similar way to yours they've got that kind of single client kind of in a way small scale mentality that is more based on their ethics and the way that they work with us and they've demonstrated that they're not all about the money which has meant that we are able to forge a really strong relationship so I just wanted to kind of affirm that point secondly so my question to you is with a company like Blanc or Holgrain from the start from the get go it was kind of baked in this idea of it's not about making money it's about something bigger than that it's about the kind of simplicity beyond that complexity if you're working for a digital agency for which that is not the case where do you begin is it something you can retrofit from the point of view of somebody who works in the agency or from the agency owner's point of view it would be harder for someone who works in the agency so that that situation if you're there in it then you can kind of if you work in the agency then I think really you've just got to think about your own role as being to deliver service to the client and good service to the client it may be more difficult if you're in that sales role where you've got sales targets and you've got sales commissions and I think that's a personal choice about what sort of role you want to be in if you're in design and development or project management then I think actually you probably shouldn't be worrying too much about the sales targets and that sort of things and you're probably not getting commission anyway so your focus should just be on delivering great service to the client and hope that that means that the client will love you and they'll come back for more and that your managers will see that and that they'll reward you for it good thank you so if you're in that kind of situation like Joe McGuire and you go for that whole thing of just leaving the agency and like setting up a small scale hello is there anything specific you do to communicate your values with your staff so that especially when new people join I'm sure it's part of the recruitment itself but how do you continually reinforce your ethics and values with the rest of the company that's a good question I mean I think largely it's really just about maintaining an open dialogue with people and some of that is just talking to people about how we treat a certain client or how we should behave on a certain project some of that is explaining things when people are recruited about what the company stands for and some of it is just like little things like on Slack we've got channels that are not to do with business so we've got a random channel where people post things that they're interested in and often those things have some sort of ethical slan and then we've got a controversy channel where people post things that are slightly you know out there but maybe in line with their personal beliefs and things like that and so it's just little details about creating a sort of a positive and open culture in everything that you do have we got any more questions okay fantastic love that fantastic marxing pointers all round because did you go out of your way to win the big name clients and how did it just take off yes so I mean this is kind of what I was saying in the beginning there's nobody in our team who's really sales focused as such there's nobody with a sales and marketing background and that's why when people ask me how do you win your big name clients my first thought is I'm not really sure because we didn't actually ever go out of our way to win them as in to get them in the door in the first place most of those big name clients came to us they either came to us because they found us on Google or they came to us because somebody recommended us to them so it's really a case of just developing a really good reputation with those smaller companies that we started off with years ago and gradually as our reputation grew bigger companies started to hear about us and similarly in terms of our online presence when those bigger companies are looking for WordPress specialists they find us and then hopefully our website communicates our values as well as just the services that we offer and so a lot of those big companies they get in contact with us because they like to look at who we are simple as that OK I think that's it big hand for Tom what a great talk