 Welcome, it's Docs Office Hours, 22 July, Asia time. Thanks for being here. Topics I've got on the list, action items, news, upcoming changelog, look and feel, improvements, Google Summer of Code update, and then long-standing poll requests. And I've actually made some more progress on one of those. This one, I'll drop out. Any other topics that you wanna put on the list? And Kristen, I think what we ought to do is let's put this one up higher just to be sure that we get to it in case we, so we don't run out of time. Sure. And that one can move down because it's just machinery. All right, so if no other topics, how about let's go through the agenda? So bad news, the action items, I've still made no progress. They're gonna be, and it'll be several weeks at least before I make progress on those news items. I may, in fact, I think I do need to cancel next week's meeting because I'll be in Southern California attending a conference. Any objections there? We'll miss you, but have fun. All right, okay, so Mark to cancel in the calendar. Great, all right, so Google Summer of Code update. So Kristen, why don't you give a brief summary of Vihon's amazing work so far and- Sure. So this is the, we have reached the midpoint of Google Summer of Code. We're halfway through the summer already. I can't, sometimes I can't believe we're already here, but earlier or yesterday or depending earlier today, depending where you are in the world, there was a online meetup where all the different students who work on projects kind of give a midpoint presentation about their stuff. And if you're interested in watching Vihon's is near the end, actually, I think this is the last presentation. So you can skip forward through a lot of the video and take a look at the amazing work he's done. A lot of like summary, a lot of it has been improving some of the docs website stuff in general, doing some massive upgrades to the generator. Oh yeah, so they wanna upgrades to the generator, the website improvements, I'll go back. Like there's the scroll bar situation. Yeah, search is the huge improvement. Static scroll bar, yeah. That was, it's sometimes, it's like, yes, that was a huge improvement early in the summer. And then the search option. And to people watching this video, if there's any other places that you can think of or please provide feedback and we are actively reviewing it right now. So any feedback would be welcome on some of these pages as well. Thank you, yeah. Yeah, and the next, oh, sorry, go ahead. No, no. And the next phase is going to be improving some of the incredibly large pieces of documentation that we have. For example, the step, step. The checkout step, where there's just a lot of information going on. So Vien did a great job like running to the, getting the stuff out for the end of coding phase one. So he's going to regroup and come up with some preliminary designs that will probably sheared in future docs office hours and on the docs channel. So if you are interested, please take a look. And attend the Europe office hours because that's where Vihon tends to share latest progress at least that I've seen. Yes. And no Europe office hours next week. Kristen, is that going to harm Vihon? Probably not. Cause we're coming up with the design, I think is happening over the next week. So depending on where he is, and worst case scenario will be in the, we'll share some pictures in the channel. Okay, great. Yeah, continue. And we do use, say for video purposes, we use the docs channel in Gitter for all of this discussion. So if you have comments or suggestions, please share there and also keep an eye out for some potential wireframes of what it could look like in a new layout. Thank you. Thanks very much. Thank you. Oh, go ahead. I feel like this has been so successful too. Like I'm so happy that Docsig has been here cheering us on, cheering him on for completing a good project. So power of community. Well, thanks very much to him and to your work. That's really impressive. All right. So one different topic, we've got a pull request out for look and feel improvements to the Jenkins page, to the whole site. And so let's take a look at it just to give hints as to what's being proposed. It looks, for me, it looks really good. There are a couple of weaknesses that I found just today in exploring. So here's the proposed new layout. And let's compare it to the existing layout. So here's the old, here's the new. Okay. So you got your jumbotron or whatever back visible. Right. So the jumbotron is above the fold, at least on my screen, like it was before. Now there is the hiccup I found was this one, if I shrink to a particular size, like four by three, 10, 24, there's an overlap thing here that doesn't happen here with the image, though it does happen with the bar. So if I go there, image is still pushing it. So somehow the image is not resizing downwards, even though it's SVG. And so that's when I need to ask him about to see what, or ask the author about to see, can that SVG image be adjusted still? But really pleased, recent adjustments included, use this sort of darker, this different blue in the download button page. That's nice. Last week we had colors I didn't like. Right, exactly. And so, those are good. Now the, yeah. And I'm never quite sure which sizes of screen matter to people. I know the sizes that matter to me, they're the screens that I use, but. Right. And I don't understand people who try to read this sort of stuff on a phone. They're out there. Yes, yes. And I don't have an answer for that one. So that absolutely. Me either. I don't either. Okay. So as it turns out, I don't have to coordinate with Gavin. Gavin has adopted plugins.jankins.io already to the new layout. So as soon as we are ready to merge it, ready to merge anytime. Yeah. And again, this is just a contributor who sort of came out of nowhere and said, I'd like to help. And has been through several iterations to get it to this point. For me, it feels like it's a good compromise, a good set of layout. And it lays out well in the rest of the site. So it's not breaking other things. Any comments or guidance there that you want to give? No, good stuff. Okay. Next topic then was this one, change, log and upgrade guide. And here the challenge is we won't meet next week, but we need to review. We, it would be good to have a draft. So what I'll do is mark and Kevin to create the draft. Actually, let's say it this way. Kevin and Mark create the draft next week. And then we'll review, review asynchronously. Look at the pull request once it's submitted. Not expected to be an awful lot of heavyweight content in it. I've not seen any major changes that are needed for the LTS candidate. So I'm, I'm expecting to be quite small. Cool. And then I did want to show, I've made one, a few more steps on modernizing a plugin. We're going to do a session at DevOps world. A two-hour session at DevOps world on adopting a plugin. And we've got three of us working together on it. So Mark, John Mark and Bruno Verashton. And what we'll be doing is we're going to temporarily adopt about 30 plugins, modernize them and then sort of hide the modernizations. And then we'll have the students in a workshop, modernize them with the idea that they can then look at the, look in the back of the book for the answers when they hit a problem. And then are you going to merge the students work? Exactly. Yeah, the goal is that each of the, each of the students in the workshop, each participant in the workshop leaves the workshop having merged at least one pull request. Okay. What just happened? Bad fingers, hang on just a minute. Each student merge at least one pull request in the two hours of the workshop. Now we've also got a, an ongoing effort to use Gitpod to create and delete development environments. So what this does is it gives us automation, automatic creation of good development environments. In other words, with correct Java, correct Maven, et cetera. And it lets them, let's them run Jenkins without ever putting it on their own computer. Yeah. Good stuff. Yeah. Good stuff. Is this, will everybody be in, in location or will some of these people be remote? On location. So on location workshops in Orlando, Florida. Now what we're going to do is we'll use, and this is the thing that's crucial for, for us as a docs office hours is we will use the, the tutorial pages. So they have to be published by then. Any other, any questions there on that one? Kristen, I don't know. Are you planning on being a DevOps world? I was, I was assuming not. No, no, I'm not going to be there. I've never, ever been to a DevOps world. Oh, you have not. Oh, I've never been, I've never been to one. Okay. I hope y'all have fun. Is this August or September that you're going to Orlando? And end of September. Okay. Oh dear. And Meg, are you, are you likely to be a DevOps world? No, no. Okay. All right. Any other topics? Do we want to look at some poll requests and see if we can close out any, any other old ones? Got a few minutes. If we got anything we can close. I'd say let's do it. Yeah. Okay. So here's what we've got. Okay. This one just came in from Daniel Beck. It's had several reviews. Devin Nussbaum. Okay. I'm not sure I'm ready to merge it yet because I think that I assume that Daniel put Vodek in specifically and intentionally. So I propose to hold that one. Oh, oh, here's a fun one. Fun one for the two of you. Okay. And this is testing. So Gavin Mogan who provides many answers to questions on community.jenkins.io and on the Gitter channel has been rather annoyed lately because a bunch of people have asked questions that made him it clear to him that they thought Blue Ocean was being actively developed, that it was getting new enhancements, et cetera. And he said, hey, let's get a statement in the documentation that admits very clearly that we're not actively enhancing Blue Ocean. Okay. So here's what Kevin- We're also not actively driving a stake through its heart either, right? Correct, right. I've heard that too. Sure, right. And that's sort of the phrasing that I felt like sometimes Gavin was using was he was trying to drive a stake through its heart and he's not, he clarified, he's not. So- Oh, I didn't know they knew that was the subtle that he was trying to do. Discourage, aggressively discourage. Well, in this case, it's not because we don't want to shut down the tutorial pages. They still work. And as part of this development work, Kevin actually went through and did the tutorials. And he confirmed, yes, in fact, they do still work. Oh, good. So it's not a matter of we're telling someone to do something that's broken. Okay, good, good, yeah. But what Kevin's created is this reference, this insertable snippet that we'll put into multiple pages. So Blue Ocean will not receive further functionality updates. Blue Ocean will continue to provide easy to use pipeline visualization, but will not be enhanced further. It will only receive selective updates for significant service security issues or functional defects. Okay, so that's, this is basically a quote from the document that Jeremy Hartley created in 2019. Okay. And then this one, alternative options for pipeline visualization, such as pipeline stage view and pipeline graph view plugins are available and offer some of the same functionality. While not complete replacements for Blue Ocean, contributions are encouraged from the community for continued development of these plugins. Okay, so the two of you, as you hear that, you've heard my reading of it. What do you think? Is that okay? Uh-huh. Unsaid but implied is we're not really looking for even the community to enhance Blue Ocean. No, no, in fact, we're not. And that's, yeah, I didn't, it doesn't say explicitly, please don't bother submitting pull requests. It's there, it's, yeah. Yeah, it's, I think it's good. I think somebody cares. Yes, well my reading, I still, I love doing the tutorial with Blue Ocean. For somebody who's coming brand new to a pipeline, I think it gets them up to speed and conceptually very fast. I can't imagine trying to do any real work with that thing. Well, and that's why pipeline visualization is the emphasized use case. Right. Because that's where it matters, at least to me. I use it all the time to see where the pipeline broke. And then I click the thing to see if I can find in the log there. And when I can't, I know that I need to go searching in the big log. Right. It feels a lot like how I do it. They start with, okay, where's the little red X? Which stage? All right. Right. Yeah. Exactly, which stage broke? Yep. Okay, now, is there a good hint in that, in the easy visualization? If not, okay, go look for it in the big full console. And did he find it going through the tutorial or whatever that, because I, you know, at one time it was all Blue Ocean all the way. But fairly early now, at least when I last saw the tutorial fairly early in it, it says, okay, now here's how you work with pipelines outside Blue Ocean. And from here on, you can do it either way. And that I don't know. So I think that depends on the tutorial, right? Because some of the tutorials are completely free of Blue Ocean. They use no Blue Ocean at all, or they barely use any. So for example, the Maven tutorial is, let's go there just for a minute. So the Maven, the Pipe, the Node and the Python tutorials, all three of these tutorials make very little use of Blue Ocean because they really don't need it. Right. No, I'm talking about the original one, just the pipeline introduction. It may not even still be live, may not even be live anymore. Maybe it's this one getting started. See if that. See, this one just shows you a copy and paste these pipelines steps in. It doesn't even show you Blue Ocean. It just says, hey, look, this is how you do it and copy and paste. And for a tutorial, that's actually a fine thing, right? There's no harm in doing it. It's intentional. You can just copy and paste this thing. Right. Now I'm talking about the one actually that's on CloudBees University. Oh, that one. So that one, I don't know. And Kevin doesn't work on those. So he hasn't touched that one. They may not be still be there. I don't know. Yeah. I can't go in and look anonymously. And I kind of don't want to go in there under my own name. So. And I think that's fair enough. Now he did visit, for instance, it was, I think it was this one. Let's see. This, no, no, that's just a blog post. There was one. Maybe it's this one. End-to-inch multi-branch, which, if I remember right, does go through. Now I've got to look and see. Nope, nope. Even this one is not. This one is guiding you in doing something very, very, very simple. You're not designing the pipeline with the Blue Ocean Editor. So it's not using the Editor. I thought we did have one that did the Editor. But obviously I'm not. Oh yeah, here it is. It's this one getting started with it. And here, this one actually takes you through the Editor and using Editor Steps to, let's find it. So here we go. This one right here. You remember this page, right, Meg? And this is walking them through, hey, do this, do this. And these exact steps. But he confirmed this works and even updated this little page right here from an ancient version of Node.js to the long-term support version. So one of the things that I wanted your feedback on, though, is, and I'm going to show you the prototype site to get that feedback, is where do we put these in each page? So hold on just a minute while we look at that together. And let's view the deployment here. Is this it? No, that's the current one. So view deployment. And now if we go to Documentation in the User Guide, Blue Ocean, and let's look at, say, Activity View. OK, so it's in this page and yet it's not above the fold. So here is the thing about, here's the warning. OK. And from my taste, that's too low. I wanted it above the picture. But I'm looking for your guide. What's your opinion for the two of you? I almost put it right at the very top. You've got a big section called Blue Ocean. Why not put it at the very top there? You mean like here? Yeah, like at the very beginning, it's what Blue Ocean is. Well, so certainly, so the proposal is to actually put it on multiple pages. Right. The idea is to put it on every page that references Blue Ocean. Yes, yes. But my question is inside those pages, where do we put it conceptually? The top. Yeah, OK, so Kristen, I think I'm hearing you say what I wanted to hear, and that's good. Because I'm thinking if someone is hitting this, I'm imagining, OK, what if someone Googled, I want to hit them and I want them to see, oh, before they get too excited about this to say. Right. It's getting started, but maybe not something. Yeah, like right there where you're setting up your pipeline project. Is there even a link to instructions for setting it up outside of Blue Ocean? In this case, there is not. But so what I was something called creating a pie. Oh, that's oh, you're creating a pipeline within Blue Ocean. Yes. Yes, right. So this is very specific to Blue Ocean. But my thought was after this second paragraph, I would like to insert this big warning thing here, right? Why not at the very beginning where it tells you what Blue Ocean is? And I OK. And this is I wasn't sure stylistically. I before giving the opening paragraph felt too soon to me just because I wanted to at least get the opening paragraph in the open for Blue Ocean. Go go back. Click Blue Ocean again. Click Blue Ocean here. Yes. There it says, what is Blue Ocean? Now, let's go just a tiny bit down. OK. Now, I would put it like right after that bullet list. Oh, yes, I agree. On this page right here, on this page right here, I think it goes above this section that I'm highlighting. That'll work, yeah. That at least would make sense to me. Or it could be below this, but it should be in this first section before the second header. Right. All I can think about is I want to see this without having to scroll. Right. Yes, exactly. It's like I would like to as high up as possible personally, because I just want to extra highlight how much we do not want people to start getting invested. And I think you can use it again. It's like you can use it, but please do not start falling in love with this. Well, I think I don't see why they can't fall in love with it. They just have to know it's not going to change. Right. And that's the story that the text is trying to say, right? Is use it. Use it to visualize pipelines. But realize we're not going to add more to it. It's functionally complete. If somebody was really new to this and really be fuddled and needed to set up their first pipeline, I might tell them to go to Blue Ocean and set up just their stages. Just get the basics there. It's a world of hurt. And and then if you're worthy of doing pipelines, you're going to want out of it, so except for visualization. So because that's the one thing I see, too, though, is that's like two pairs. Like if I look at this screen, that's going to consume a third of what's on the screen without scrolling. Exactly. I don't know if I want that on every page through this as a third of every page is the same wording. Well, but then you have the problem that people don't read and see quite a sequence. So if it's not on every page, they don't see it. See, and that was my worry is that if we don't put it on every single page, well, as an example, there are some pages where it just makes sense to put it in this one right here, for instance. I don't that's an awful screenshot. It clearly needs a repair. Oh, no, this is this is. Oh, sorry. This is this is Leo marking it up. I see my mistake, but we notice that we've got this nice blank space here right below this text. Right. So it may actually not move this image at all on this particular page because could you put part of it on every page? Sure. What part would you what would you I'm thinking that just the top part that it won't be getting more that it works? Where is the you don't want to you don't want to confuse people by throwing in the alternative options, but there might be trying at the first time. Well, I want that if they're going to do much with pipeline, they're going to have to look at more than one page, right? Correct. You know. So I don't know just to me, but that it will not receive further functionality updates, continue to these years. Like if at the beginning of Blue Ocean, you had the whole thing and then just have like what's those three lines, which will probably be two lines of text. The alternative options. I don't know that that needs to be on ever, but that's just me. Well, and the the reason the reason this one was added was specifically at Gavin's request. He said, hey, we want to my my argument initially was, hey, I don't want to talk about alternatives because I don't think either of these is actually a terribly good alternative for visualization. Right. Then that's this is not I mean, this is more of an existential Jenkins question. That's not a good sign. If we have a UI that's supposed to be about pipeline visualization, we decide not to continue working on it and then don't have a good alternative that will potentially receive updates, security patches, et cetera. Yes, clearly we can't solve that here. But well, that's a good and you and you're right. That's not healthy. And that's that's a not healthy condition that that is getting some attention elsewhere. So that I'm I'm less concerned about that long term. OK, OK, good. Because because I think you're right, we've got to have pipeline visualization. And today we've got Blue Ocean and today it works and it visualizes pipelines. This graph view thing is actually pretty close to a Blue Ocean replacement for the visualization piece. It just doesn't render every pipeline as accurately as Blue Ocean does. There are some places it just makes mistakes. And the challenge for it is the the maintainer of it is not actively working on it because he's working on other things. Yeah, OK. And but you know what else is missing here is that because you've you've moved on, you're already just assuming it's just for visualization. Right, we've got a whole lot of stuff and people using it, I think, for creating a pipeline. And we're not pointing them to the option, the alternatives for that either. Oh, oh, I see your point. There is alternative options for pipeline creation. Might be another way of phrasing it. Interesting. Yeah, so maybe maybe that further argues for your your idea that first first three sentences everywhere. These two on pages that are related to visualization and maybe additional some additional texts on pages that are related to pipeline creation like this create a pipeline in Blue Ocean page. Yeah. Interesting idea. OK, well, let me let me discuss that with Kevin to see see what what he thinks. Because I think I like that idea. Let me make a note of that in the notes. And then that's my only concern, you know, is I've I've been on site where I'm trying to read something and every third sentence is some boilerplate thing repeated about the 10th time I'm like enough. Right. But but it is tough because I think they should read one of these sections from beginning to end. And then we just get at the beginning and no, but they people don't do that. So right. OK, so so let me let me try to capture that. So three different types of admonitions. Right. So there is the full full disclaimer on the opening. Definitely goes at the very beginning of the Blue Ocean section on the opening section. Right. And that disclaims that notes that it's no new no enhancements, visualization alternatives, pipeline creation alternatives. And this actually may be a good way to align with one of the desires that Gavin had, which was refer to the snippet generator, right, pipeline snippet generator, because because we we don't refer to it enough. Truthfully, people still are not getting it. That is the first place you should go to do pipeline syntax. Right. But but OK, that's full disclaimer there. And then visualization pages or no, a visualization disclaimer on sections focused on visualization. Right. And there it would be no enhancements, visualization alternatives. Is that is that the message that you were trying to get through to me, Meg? Right. And then pipeline creation disclaimer. Or it doesn't even need to be a disclaimer. Just make sure that every time we tell them how to create pipeline with Blue Ocean, we have a link to here's how you created outside of the ocean. Yeah. So maybe maybe I put it as I'm just going to put it as admonition. Yeah. Because it's it's it's not really a disclaimer in that sense. The word disclaimer is or isn't and that is is wrong. Do you know what else is not here? What's that? The obvious thing. I can create a pipeline with Blue Ocean and then work on it with non Blue Ocean tools. I can create. I can use traditional tools to create my pipeline and still do the visualization with Blue Ocean. In other words, the same pipe that you can, you know, if you say, but Blue Ocean's going away. And that's what I've used for all my pipelines. It doesn't matter unless you're not using the tool. But the pipeline itself is the same. But but that I think is actually already stated in in a number of places in the documents. It may be saying that you you can edit this with a text editor. Right. OK. Yeah. OK. But so so if if we had these three admin styles of admonitions make to your point that avoids redundancy, they're not seeing exactly the same text every time. Right. It it shrinks the text in in those places where it's not pipeline creation focused or it's not visualization focused. Yeah. Let me let me talk that over with Kevin. I think it's a good idea. Yeah. It's just a matter of probably when you're done. Yeah, you've got Kevin. He needs to just some evening sit down with a good, you know, with a bucket of popcorn and just read through it all and see if what he's left with is good. Right. Yep. OK. Thank you. Anything else on the Blue Ocean admonition? No, but nice, nice work. So Meg, I think we're probably at your time. Are we so pretty much I should get going. Well, we could have you got one more quick one. Well, let's look and see. So let's do a quick check. Because I want you both to notice we're down to 26 open pull requests. Oh, yeah. OK, well, actually, here we go. Here's one inclusive naming screen shot update on the inbound agent. I had requested a change on this one. OK, no, this one needs comments from from others or Oleg. OK. Yeah. So this one not ready. I think I could act as Oleg's proxy on it, but not not in the time we have. And the others, the drafts on security. Yeah, I could talk about that. I will. I mean, I still haven't. Daniel's been working on other things and I understand. I mean, it's probably a mess now, because he's probably done a whole bunch more changes to what we've got. Yeah, I have not looked. I apologize, Meg, I really, truly have not looked. No need to apologize. I kept me off the streets for a while. All right. I think I think I'm at hold for that. We call it good enough for today. Good. OK. Sounds good. Thanks to both of you. Have a great evening. You have a wonderful conference. Talked to you. Talked to you in two weeks. No message. No meeting next week. Thanks. All right. Thanks, y'all. Bye bye.