 All right people of the internet welcome to modern-day debate. We are live now Apparently the there's a delay on the YouTube. So sorry about that. So Ladies and gentlemen, we have Tom jump debating the Muslim apologist and we're gonna be debating whether or not Muhammad's marriage to Aisha was moral We're starting right now Tom. I would start your timer. All right. All right. So the topic today was is Being married to a six-year-old girl and consummate in the marriage at two with a nine-year-old grilled Pedophile and yes. Yes, it is. It's pedophilia. So Muhammad was in fact immoral and as Surah 33 verse 21 states Muhammad is the pattern of conduct for all Muslims And so this is why so many Muslims around the world are for Child marriage because Muhammad did it and so everyone else is allowed to do it too Which is why Islam is an immoral religion So the heart of the issue is what are the approaches that Muslims can take to try to placate this? Obviously immoral statement that is in the Quran. There are three several approaches They can take the primary three or one is to claim that She was actually older that wasn't actually nine, but this is False Aisha may claim that Aisha was actually 16 or 17 or maybe even older and her pattern of con her conduct Based on her pattern of conduct Unfortunately for the performance of that for the claim that Aisha was older defense This only works in an atmosphere of total ignorance of someone who's never read any of the Muslim sources related to Aisha Once you start reading Islam's most trusted sources and you find the Hidith and after Hidith It says clearly that Aisha was nine years old when Muhammad had sex with her and you find any of those sources Saying if you try to find any of those forces saying she was 16 or 18 There are none of them there's zero zero sources in the Quran ever say that Ever there are many that say she was nine. So Based on the Quran based on how these she was nine So if we take for example, so he Al Bukhari 51 58 Narrated Irwa the prophet wrote the marriage contracted with Aisha We'll while she was six years old and consummated his marriage while With her while she was nine years old and remained with her with him for nine years till death see also Sahih Bukhari 38 94 38 96 51 33 and 51 34 which all agree that Aisha was nine years old when Muhammad had sex with her So he Muslims 33 11 Aisha reports that Allah apostle married her when she was seven years old and She was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine and her dolls were with her when at that time So he Muslims 3309 and 3310 which agree that Aisha was nine years old when Muhammad had sex with her and 2116 narrated Aisha the messenger of Allah married me when I was narrated by Asia when I was seven years old or 67 or six-year-old and he had in a course with me when I was nine years old Also see Abdu Dubai the hobby 49 15 49 16 49 17 48 18 which all agree that Aisha was you guessed it nine years old when Muhammad had sex with her In Psi 3380 it was narrated that Aisha said the messenger of Allah married me when I was six Cosmated that marriage with me when I was nine and used to play with and I used to play with dolls See also sooner who desi 32 57 30 258 30 259 3260 and 33 81 which all agree that Asia was a once again nine years old when Muhammad had sex with her Now if you continue going through the Sunnah Ibi Majah The history of Atari and so on which all agree that Aisha was nine years old when Muhammad had sex with her But instead of continuing on more sources that I should was nine years old Why don't we just find the sources that say she was 16 or 18? Because there aren't any there are zero of them. None of them. None of them say that So to quote from Ibn Khatir one of the most respected Islamic scholars of all time In its four-volume biography Muhammad Ibn Khatir quotes Irwa Ibn al-Zubar Aisha's nephew who says that Aisha was nine years old when Muhammad consummated the marriage and with her after quoting Irwa on the age of Aisha's Even Khatir says this statement has contracted marriage with Aisha when she was six there after consummated it with her When she was nine is not disputed by anyone and is well established in this Sahih Sahih Collections of tradition and elsewhere when scholars disagreed on the issue Ibn Khatir would draw attention to the disagreement But when it comes to Muhammad having sex with Aisha when she was nine years old Imam Khatir says that it is not disputed by anyone Ibn Khatir would roll his eye roll over his grave if he heard modern Muslim scholars and Apologists saying that Aisha was actually 16 or 18 to make Muslims feel better about their prophet. I Think our Muslim friends should take the advice of Shaki Yusr Qadi who rebuked who rebuked Muslims who lie about the age of Aisha and said Muslims don't apologize For the truth and don't distort the truth. There are Muslims that tried to deny this that he didn't marry Aisha as young as that and look Don't lie for the sake of our religion for a law and the truth And we're not going to cover up the truth that people find out embarrassing things about it So I will conclude there and let my opponent go All right, thank you so much Tom for that opening statement. We will go ahead and kick it over to To the Muslim Apologist at your first word. I will start your timer, sir All right. Thank you. So, yeah, so I'll begin with saying As-salamu ala manitaba al-Hudah So I began this statement with all absolute praise To the one true God of Abraham and his last messenger Muhammad, Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam Alhamdulillahi rabbil alamin Wasala to wasala Mu'ala Ashrafil Anbiya Iwal Muslim Wa'ala alihi wa sahbihi ajma'in Rabbish Rahli Sardari, Wa-ya Sireli Amri Wahlul Uqdat Amilisani, Yafqa Huqalli, Ammabah So the topic today is was Muhammad's marriage to Aisha Molo. Okay So this issue has been used and abused by Christian Polymysus Apostates Islamophobes and every group imaginable who has an axe to grind against Islam Which is of course hardly surprising Because Islam is currently the fastest growing religion in the world and according to Pew Research by 2050 Islam will surpass Christianity as the largest religion globally On the character and the morals of the Prophet himself the well-known Orientalist W. Montgomery Watts said In his day and generation, Muhammad was a social reformer indeed a reformer even in a sphere of morals He created a new system of social security and a new family structure both of which Were a vast improvement on what went before In this way, he adapted for settled communities or that was best in the morality of the nomad and Established a religious and a social framework for the life of the Sikhs of the human race today That is not the work of a traitor or a leecher The historian Thomas Kala said Our current hypothesis about Muhammad that he was a scheming imposter a falsehood incarnate That his religion is a mere mass of quackery and fatuity Begins really to be now untenable to anyone the lies which well-meaning zeal has heaped along this man Are this graceful to ourselves only? So the evidence for Aisha being betrothed at six years old and her marriage Consummate a nine-year-old can be found in authentic hadith collections And I do not feel that there is any need to cite these hadiths or object to the historicity Going back to the issue at hand We must first of all understand that this marriage took place roughly one thousand four hundred years ago As such this marriage must be evaluated based on the standards of that time period While keeping in mind that we should not commit the logical fallacy of presentism So the definition of presentism is thinking about history from an exclusively present this point of view which Fails to take into account that at the time in which historical events occur Those involved did not enjoy the benefit of hindsight that has informed our present perspective Presentism invites us to dismiss the poor decisions made by previous generations as having been based on their failure to anticipate The long-term consequences of their deeds yet to fully understand a historical event We must view it not only with the benefit of hindsight, but also in the more limited context of his own times So this can be easily determined by asking a series of questions, which I will propose as follows first question Was Aishah's marriage objected to by the Prophet's contemporaries or even by her own parents? Her answer is no it was not nobody objected to this marriage None of the contemporary enemies of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam ever used this issue as a slight against the Prophet Simply because it was a non-issue This problem Problem only came about in the 20th century and the first person to raise This issue was as an objection to the character of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam was Sir William White a British orientalist with Christian evangelical tendencies Now the second question did Aishah demonstrate any signs of abuse while she was in the household of the Prophet Till the day he passed away Again, the answer is no according to the hadith and seerah or biographical material that we have Aishah was a happy and outgoing woman In fact the record suggests that she spoke her mind and was unafraid to voice out her dissatisfaction Even to the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam himself if she were unhappy about a certain issue which affects her In the years after the passing of the Prophet she became renowned as a teacher of Islam and Decades later she even led an army against the Khalif Ali This certainly does not sound like an abused Man-lupinated person who was possibly married off against her will when she was younger Now the third question Was it a common practice at the time to marry at such a young age? The answer is yes It was a common practice of the era This is determined by when women has attained puberty and how do we know that a woman has reached puberty? By experiencing her first menstruation Under Islamic law a woman can only be legally married after she has attained puberty Now Nehru postman a former professor at the New York University wrote the book the Disappearance of childhood in it He argues that childhood was one of the great inventions of the renaissance just like any other social structure its development was closely correlated with the written tradition and Development of primary schools as opposed to the audio oral tradition in the Middle Ages So he states in an oral world There is not much of a concept of an adult and therefore even less of a child And that is why in all the sources one finds that in the Middle Ages childhood ended at age seven Why seven because that is the age at which children have command over speech They can say and understand what adults can say and understand They are able to know all secrets of the town which are the only secrets They need to know and this helps us to explain why the Catholic Church Designated age seven as the age at which one was assumed to know the difference between right and wrong the age of reason It also helps us to explain why until the 17th century the words used to denote young males could refer to men of 30 40 or 50 for there were no such word In French in German or in English for a young male between the ages Of seven and sixteen the word child expressed kinship not an age But most of all the oralism of the Middle Ages helps us to explain why there were no primary schools For where biology determines communication competence. There is no need for such schools And if we look at the United States in 1930 in 1930 thousands of boys and girls Married before the age of 14. It was Imported that 1311 girls in east south central area of the United States married below the age of 14 So now this brings us to our fourth question Are there examples of young marriages throughout history? What was the age of consent? So let us look at history and how marriage was practiced in earlier times before the 20th century We have a long list of ancient kings and queens and individuals from Asia, Europe, Africa and the Middle East Being married off at an age as young as seven years old. So here are a few examples According to the bible, Rebecca was married off to Isaac The father of the Jews when she was three years old Mary the mother of Jesus in the New Testament was 12 years old when she got married to Joseph who was 90 years old Akan Senamun. She was around 16 years old was married to a half brother Tutankhamun age around 10 years old in about 1332 bce Judith of Flanders. She was around 12 years old She married at the wolf king of west sex who was 61 years old At the full of west sex who was 16 years old married to Charles the simple king of west franca in 19 in 919 Isabella Jerusalem age 10 years old married Humphrey the fourth of toron who was aged around 17 years old in 1183 And they had betrothed when Isabella was eight years old Okay, Isabella of viola She was six years old. She married king Richard the second of england who was 29 years old Eleanor of england daughter of Eleanor of equitin and henry the second of england. She married 15 year old Alfonso the eighth of castile In 1170 when she was nine years old Um a more contemporary example. Miranelli devy who was aged around nine to 11 years old She married Rabinada Tagore who was 22 years old in 1883 So that's a whole list of this in wikipedia And I think the point has been made that young managers were not considered to be problematic until very recently in the 20th century Now the fifth one final question All right, could the prophets marriage to aisha in any way shape or form be considered as pedophilia Okay, so please read the definition of what is a pedophile And history because does not at all suggest that the prophet sallallahu wasallam met this criteria. Okay, because he only Had one marriage with a virgin which was aisha. His otherwise were all widows. They do not fit a definition of a pedophile So in conclusion, we can therefore surmise that the marriage of aisha to the prophet was part of a practice Totally congruent with his time period and based on what I've already said There is nothing to suggest that this marriage was immoral And with that I end my opening statement without lies islam tries. Thank you very much All right, thank you so much for your opening statements, sir And with that, we will go ahead and just pause my phone is beeping at me one second No problem. Uh, we're gonna kick it into the open discussion in just a second But before we do that, I just want to let everybody know that we are a neutral platform Hosting debates on science religion and politics And we want you to feel welcome I mean, I want walk of life you're from and if you have a question or a comment for one It's nice debaters fire into the old live chat and tag me at modern day debate Superchats will go to the top of the list. All we ask is that you keep it civil And attack the argument and not the person insults will not be read I want to let you guys know that we're going to be after part after show my channel that you guys can Check out the link will be in the description shortly and with that I believe that oh, yeah one more thing I wanted to let you guys know about is the debate coming up tomorrow at 8 p.m Eastern it's going to be the red pill on trial We're going to have carissa and jackson versus pwf and sara and that's going to be at 8 p.m They're going to be debating is dating harder for men so uh, go ahead and uh, like and subscribe and check that out if you would uh, if you find that interesting And with that we will go ahead and open up the open discussion gentlemen at your first word the floor will be all yours So I want to start the last question. Um, what was like the definition of pedophilia? The definition is Where the preference for sexual activity with a prepudescent child or children? Pre-pudescent is defined as not ages nine to 12 ish was nine that makes him have had a file I was actually going to read the definition from the msd manual for the consumer So the full definition of a pedophile Is defined as having had repeated intense sexually Allowsing fantasies urges or behaviors involving a child or children usually age 13 years or under Pedophilia is also medically defined as a mental disorder Many pedophiles have or developed a substance Use disorder or dependence and depression. They often come from this thing This functional families and molecule conflict is common. Many were sexually abused as children So please tell me if the prophet is this kind of Uh, yes, because being a pedophile doesn't require actual intentions Like if you had sex with a child, even if you don't aren't attracted Was sexually abused as a child abuse has nothing to do with abuse if you have sex with a Stop stop talking Okay, hold on guys What is the question and dependence and depression So I ask you No, so yes, the only criterion of what it requires to be a pedophile is you had sexual activity With a prepudescent child Stop talking over me. Stop. Let's let's let's let's finish this Stop talking. Can you guys hear me? Stop talking. Yes, we can hear you Um, okay, so the only thing that makes you a pedophile is if you had sexual activity With a child. I don't care about your intentions. I don't care about your desires If you had sexual activity with a child, you're going to prison because you're a pedophile. That's it There's no no psychological don't care. Muhammad has sex with a nine-year-old girl. He is a pedophile done Okay, let's go with your your your very narrow definition of pedophilia um, so um answer this question, please. Are you a moral? Objection in this object and in this or Objectivist subject objectivist. Yes, I'm a moral objectivist If you are objectivist, then um, tell me why no one during the time of the prophet objected to this marriage I did not understand that sentence Why did no one his contemporaries during the time of the prophet following wassalam ever objected to this marriage because you say Well, they did So moral objectivism is the position that facts are true independent of what anybody thinks so asking me Why didn't a whole bunch of subjective people not disagree? Doesn't make a difference to moral objectivism. It's still going to be wrong whether or not his contemporaries agree That doesn't make sense to me. I mean if if we morally I mean If morality is objective, then it should be standardized throughout all periods then everyone should have agreed No, no, like it's an objective fact It's an objective fact the world is rounds one second one sec It's an objective fact the world is rounds not everyone agrees Things that are objectively true are not objectively true Because people agree They're objectively true because they have a truth value independent of any opinions It means it doesn't matter whether people agree. That's that's what objective means Subjective means it's true contingent on opinions So if you're thinking well, why the society at the time didn't object and you think that's fine That's subjective moral. That's relative morality. If you think morality is objective That means it's always wrong to do things even if people don't know it's wrong. So like Many many years ago. Most people thought slavery was just fine They were wrong. They were all wrong Everybody in that society who was totally finalist slavery were all wrong It was immoral whether they realized it or not. So the number of people who realize it Doesn't matter to objective morality because objective means truth statements that are Independence of what people think Okay. All right. Um, if that's your opinion, um, what's the dictionary definition of objective? Subjective is contingent on opinions objective Moral Not not the definition of objectivity. Okay, so, um So, um, I said moral objectivity Yeah, moral objectivity is the position that the truth value of moral statements is independent of any opinion It still doesn't make sense to me. Okay, but I don't yeah, I was going I was thinking of a Give me a moment. Give me a moment, please. Um Yeah, so, um, yeah, so what about the managers doing during the time of uh, the ancient time So, you know, I just they're all pedophiles. They're all immoral Oh really? They're all pedophiles. So you just uh, emitted that whole europe was was was practicing pedophilia Sure Yes, people in the past did lots of immoral things when they were all immoral people. Yep If you have sex with a child Who is nine years old? You are a pedophile and you are immoral at any time at any point in history Any time immoral doesn't I don't care what the society thinks you're still immoral But then you're commenting the fantasy of presentism No, that's so presentism is using the present moments to judge things. I'm not using the present moment I'm using So so there's a difference between using a present cultural context to judge things and using an objective standard to judge things If you're using an objective standard to judge things that is not the same as a subjective modern social context Presentism is using a modern social context to judge the past That would be a fallacy. Yes. If you have an objective standard that is independent of all time Then it doesn't matter if it's now or then the objective standard applies to everything at all times equally I think I still think that you're you're using the fantasy of presentism because You're saying you just you just told me that the whole of europe is practicing pedophilism You just told me that the contemporaries of the prophet siren was southern were also pedophiles You're telling me that everyone else before the 20th century were all pedophiles. Uh, let me let me try to explain this Let me let me try to explain this a little differently so Again, you know, I'm not using presentism I'm trying to explain to you why I'm not using presentism to try to get you to understand Like today when physicists do math, they use general and special relativity So if they're calculating the speed of light, okay, what? So if we go back 300 years when people were using newtonian mechanics And we're comparing their numbers. They say that the speed of light is two 99 point something something They were wrong Because we can use general relativity, which is more accurate. Now. That's not using presentism We're not just using a random social construct that we've made up to assess that they're wrong We have a more accurate system that understands reality better than they do And so there's a difference between presentism, which is using a cultural belief contingent on the society to judge other societies cultural beliefs And using an objective fact about reality which can be demonstrated To show that they did it wrong in the past. Those are two different things Does that make sense? You're still using presentism. You're judging basically what you're doing. You're judging Judging history is judging history based on what we are doing now. Yes, of course today When people just to clarify when people were doing newtonian mechanics No, when people were doing newtony mechanics, were they wrong? Let me finish when people were doing newtonian mechanics where they wrong come on I'm not interested in a statement when people were doing newtonian mechanics. Were they wrong? Yes, or no. All right. Well, if you don't want to answer that just go ahead and finish your question then I'm gonna finish them. All right. No, thank you. Your question is presentism If you say people doing newtony mechanics were wrong. Are you doing presentism? I don't I don't understand your question. Okay, so anyway, um Newtony mechanics the past people doing math in the past. Were they wrong? No, they were not wrong. Why would they be wrong? So so like So the calculations of newtonian mechanics is incorrect. It does not describe things Accurately new gravity. That's why we switched to general relativity math in the past. They got it wrong Today we were So why why would he be wrong wrong, you know, because it does not describe reality So if like you try to describe the orbit of the moon with gravity, it's wrong Your example is about about mathematics and facts. It's not about about morality. Morality is about Morality is a fact. That's what objective morality means. If you believe an objective morality You believe morality is fact just like physics is fact. That's what objective morality means Yes, morality is a fact morality Objective morality moral facts are facts just like physics is facts Here It's still you're still you're still not making the point. You still don't don't get the People in the body What I say just makes sense was the connection between objective and facts and physics. Did that make sense to you guys? My chat is saying yeah, my chat makes it makes sense to Kaz. Did that did my analogy make sense to you? Of course, but um I Doesn't make any sense to me. It's still you're still using present presentism upon a culture that happened 1,400 years ago Okay, you're you're judging history based on what we already what we are practicing now and You know, there are certain things in the past which would be considered immoral back then In the past people thought Objects that were heavier than air couldn't fly Were they wrong? I guess so. Yeah, so yes So today we know objects that are heavier than air can fly planes planes can fly but in the past they thought they couldn't Is that presentism or is that a fact? That's right. That's not presentism Right, so there are these things called facts that people in the past could just have been wrong about right? And so one of those could be morality. They could have been wrong about morality in the past, right? No, no not necessarily. No, no Are you a moral relativist? I'm a moral realist Okay, so so moral realism means that there are certain moral truths That are true objectively meaning independent of time right independent of opinion like like facts and physics They're true like facts of physics, right? Yeah, sure So so if there's a fact of physics just like there's a fact of morality and people in the past Didn't believe that fact they would be Wrong, right? I guess so. Yeah, yeah with a reasonable conclusion to make yeah, right? So moralism says there is some moral facts and if people That still doesn't prove that the first marriage to Aisha was wrong. Okay. All right. He doesn't he doesn't he really doesn't Okay, so so if you're still judging you're still judging by what we're doing now There upon history, so it is simple Okay, so one of these moral facts one of these objective moral facts is Sex with people who can't consent is immoral people who are Children don't have intellectual ability to consent therefore having sex to them is immoral That's what this is one of those objective moral truths. That's true independent Dude, you were on record saying that incest is okay With consenting adults incest with I consider those things to be immoral. Okay, you're wrong That's that's that because you are basing on your uh current tradition and your objective I believe in objective morality. That means I believe in a system in the period of time But you are you're wrong. You're still wrong to me. You're wrong But to you, you're right. So your moral system says pedophilia is okay. Mai says it's not okay And we can just let the people in the audience be like what what moral system seems more right there Please correct your information. Islam doesn't say that pedophilia is right. Okay, but you are judging you're judging your your definition of pedophilia It's so narrow that you apply it to the prophet I just gave you Okay, okay If we go to a courtroom and and you had sex with a nine-year-old are they going to To send you to jail and label you a pedophile when they write that down the crime you committed Because our time doesn't allow it. Okay. Our current morals doesn't allow it. So this isn't just my definition This isn't just a little little definition. I've made up This is like the definition of every court in every civilized country in the world That thing is this only happening now in the modern time in back in those days nine years old, okay There was no court rooms. Okay, there were no court rooms. All right Okay, nine years old nine years old Nine years old women were considered to be childbearing and they need to marry. Okay in order to survive Okay, you were in eighties, right? You believe in uh evolutionary biology uh what Do you believe in the evolution in in survival or the fittest? I believe in evolution. Yes What about survival or the fittest? Uh, no, that's a shorthand for natural selection Uh, okay fine. Okay. I'll I'll rephrase it. Okay. What about what about uh sustaining the progeny continuing the line Continuing the biological line It's not moral nor immoral. There's no imperative to do that. No Okay, good. All right. So if someone back in those days 1,400 years ago, if they are um, you know, if the if the Mortality rate is such that they won't leave up to, you know, 40 years old or 50 years old Would it be okay for them to have progeny before that? Uh, no if they if the intellectual capability of those who was who they were having sex with You're not you're not insane. I'm trying to answer you asked like if they only live to 40 Would having sex would it be okay for them to have sex with people of their species below that age? That's your question, right? Pretty much. Yes. Yes. So the the answer is it's only moral If they have the intellectual capability to consent Wherever that age is so it's only moral if they are intellectually developed enough to have the capability to consent I shall spare ends and I shall herself consented to the marriage. What do you say to that? She's nine. You can't consent when you're a child. That's literally a part of the law I can't say that she consented to the marriage. You're in denial. No Finish I want a debate So yeah, you can you can claim that like if you claim a child consented to sex You still go to jail. That doesn't that doesn't mean the fact that I think you I think you ignore my definition of what the child is because I read the definition of what the child is right. I quoted Neil postman, right? I quoted Neil postman that Oh my god, okay, let me read. Okay. Let me please um cast is it okay if I read that read this out Okay, my definition is a young human being below the age of purity and below the legal age of majority Can I read out this message? Yes, just take a moment Okay, so Neil postman in the in his book the disappearance of childhood He's a former professor at new york university He says that in an oral world where there is not much of a concept of an adult and therefore even less of a child and that is Why in all sources one finds that in the middle ages childhood ended at age seven Why seven because that is the age at which children have command over speech They can say and understand what adults can say And then the what the passage just goes on and talks about about the attributes of What defines a child back in the day, but basically People before the 20th century. Okay, they don't have this conception of child. Okay, so they do not understand child As anyone people the age of seven, okay Yes, and they were idiots because they didn't understand biology or cognitive science or philosophy or psychology You're basically just throwing everyone No, no, I'm saying they didn't understand modern science Like we understand how the brain and the body develop over time We understand that children don't have the intellectual capacity to give consent at those ages Because their brains haven't developed the ability to rationalize yet Therefore, we don't count them as rational adults because we know Psychologically their brains aren't capable of being rational adults back in the past. They didn't know these things. They were ignorant of facts They didn't know facts So they made stupid decisions that were wrong because they didn't have the information to know they were wrong All over again. Yes, presentism. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, you're doing presentism again No, that's those facts things those pesky facts things we agreed upon are not presentism. They're just facts It's presentism because I just told you that the middle in the middle ages. They don't consider first as a seven year old to be a child And I already explained that that that's not presentism. That's a fact Like I said, you're just throwing everything under the bus. You deny every single definition I give and you give your own definition That's pretty much that's pretty much what what you're doing. Okay, it's not what I'm doing That's what you are doing and I think the audience can see this Okay, all right Yes, we can ask the audience what they think my point wasn't if it made sense and we'll we'll find out Yeah, so yeah, if you have any questions, go ahead Nope, you kind of just admitted that was right on everything. I don't have anything else to go on. I didn't See to anything you just admitted that you know, you just admitted Just admitted that you know, um Anyone below the age of 40 as long as the gift consent Can you know can do whatever they want and I we have clear records that Aisha's parents and And Aisha herself agreed to them Yeah, I don't think you know what any of the words I use mean or there's probably a problem No, you can you can insult me however you want Tom, but you know that you know that I'm right, okay Sure, sure Yeah Sorry Cas you are muted Still muted Still muted I too much crap open on my desktop right now So You had mentioned that the Aisha's parents had consented for her Can you talk more about how that works? How can a parent consent for a child? Well back in the day Like I said before in my in my presentation even anyone Who has reached poverty are not considered to be children anymore. Okay and In the adult culture. Okay. Uh, one must get either the girl's consent or the parents consent. Okay, so, um Uh, once the parents consented therefore the marriage goes but she's also given an opportunity to reject the marriage If she went once she reached poverty, okay, and Aisha We have the records. She um, she was married off at six years old and Consummated at nine she has every right to reject the marriage when she was nine But she didn't she moving with the profit Right. So, uh, the marriage goes so that is consent That is consent. Okay We can't consent unless you have the intellectual capacity to consent So people who are like intellectually handicapped the children Shush, shush, shush You just you just gave your explanation You're just making up Let just let tom respond to what you just said please Shush But you can't consent unless you have the intellectual capability to consent Which means children and people who are intellectually handicapped do not have the ability to consent So even if they say they agree that doesn't count as consent if they don't have the intellectual capability And so having sex with them is still immoral Sorry, you didn't know that Oh my I don't know what else to say. I mean, uh, this guy just literally threw everything out What I said out of the bus. Okay, so I already mentioned that, you know There's no such thing as a child. Okay, even if you are seven year old even you're a nine year old And it was about survival. It's about it's about uh, that's that is why I ask you the question tom whether you believe whether you're okay with anyone, uh, you know Marrying at below 40 if they are if the mortality rate is such that you know, it requires them to marry So the idea back then okay back in those days, okay Um humans don't last long enough. Okay, so that is why they marry very young. Okay, then this is a practice that Has been everyone even before I mean before the 20th century. I gave examples of of You know managers in the ancient times Okay, he just calls them pedophiles is is that simple isn't it to argue this way But it doesn't change the fact that um, there's nothing there's nothing immoral about it because it was a normal practice at the time Okay, the prophet's contemporaries. They certainly didn't reject it They could have used every single excuse to To reject his message. He could have used this argument against him, but they did not Why they did not use this message that they did not use this argument against the prophet because they were doing it Okay, they were doing it. So there was no issues and it was only until the 20th century Where will them where started to uh raise this issue against uh the prophet, okay There were christian polemicists throughout the age of storm, okay They could he could like for example donald demoscors was the first Christian polemicists against islam. He could have used this argument Against the prophet. He could say oh the prophet was a false prophet because he married aisha when she was six years old Or and consummated the marriage when she was dying. Why didn't he use this argument? Okay, why didn't he was an idiot? That's why You cannot you cannot go You went on that's not an argument. That's emotional If someone didn't make an argument facts You said you want the fact so just give me a fact. I'm not sure Uh, one of us is there's an echo somewhere, but uh, yeah, so if he didn't know a better argument existed to prove Muhammad was a not prophet He had all access he was Shush Shush Then he was an idiot. He was ignorant of the facts of the better argument. So I can make a better argument Muhammad was a pedophile that proves. He's not the not the that's your argument. Everyone was elsewhere. He does everyone was pedophiles Yes, that's your argument fine. Sure Doesn't change anything Yeah, and yours is well at the time they were fine with it therefore. It's perfectly moral Totally not a justification for literally I didn't say it was either moral or immoral. I just said it was a practice at the time But it was certainly not immoral. Okay, I didn't I didn't argue for morally. I didn't argue for positiveness I didn't argue you for the negativeness of the man. I'm very new think you just destroyed yourself on that one So if you're admitting that She's Anyone else? So if you think that if you agree that the fact that all those people Thought something or didn't think something. It's completely independent of whether or not it's moral That shows that whether or not they thought or agreed with it is completely irrelevant to the question It doesn't matter. It's irrelevant Which I that's that's correct. It is irrelevant But then you've just wasted like every minute of what you said because That's all you've brought up. Is it something that's completely irrelevant? Presentism, yeah Have you done yet? Well, um I guess we could go to q&a if you really have nothing else to argue about. Um, I don't think so I mean the guy just Talk about uh How I mean Muslim apologists you did just say that um Uh, you didn't have an opinion of whether or not it was moral or immoral Can you maybe expound upon what you do think about it? Especially like present time. Yeah, I believe yes. Yes. Okay, uh, sorry Okay, so basically I believe as a muslim, of course, I reveal and honor the prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam Okay, I believe that he's a true messenger of god At the same time, okay, the prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was a man of his times. He Adhere to the cultural morals of his time Okay, so it's neither moral or immoral. I mean the prophet, uh, own slaves. Okay, so Um, the prophet married more than four wives. So The prophet went to war. Yes. So, okay There are certain things where the which the prophet did did which were not within the confines of his times Which today will be considered wrong or immoral. Okay by presentism, okay, so um The prophet had to uh, the prophet basically Work was constrained by the limits of his times. Okay, if the prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam were living In our times today. I believe that uh, you know, um, he probably would not have married aisha at six years old because Not because this was immoral or anything of the sort But because he wanted to show as an example to the other muslims how the right Marriage should be. Okay, I believe that he would probably marry her. Maybe a little bit older Probably not 18 probably. I don't know when um, maybe a bit older. Maybe um, 15 or 16. All right. Okay It's possible. Okay, but he was constrained by his times at the time. It was totally normal to marry at six Everyone else was doing it. It's neither a moral or immoral argument. Okay. It was just Something confined within the time period and everyone else was doing it. Okay It's not a matter of morality here. Okay. It's more of a matter of constant laws and tradition. Okay What's the title of the debate? We have 22 minutes left on the open discussion Okay, the middle is um, sorry the the europeans are practicing this. What was the title? What was the title of the debate? Uh, what was mohammed's marriage to aisha moral? Yeah, for me it was the previous sentence. What was the previous sentence you just said about whether or not I say it was neither moral or immoral. That's all. Okay, neither moral or immoral, but If you are going to ask this question Okay, it was more mohammed's marriage to aisha moral. My answer is it was not immoral. Okay, that's all. Perhaps separate from mohammed if we could just talk about anybody marrying a nine-year-old Uh, in any time period What do you think about the the actual moral impact of Child marriage, I guess. Um, like I said, like I said, I gave examples before like, um I think they were constrained by that time period or so. Okay, and yeah, they want to uh, basically it's all about survival of the fitters and extending their progeny. So of course, they're going to marry young because the death rate, I mean the the mortality rate is Makes it so that um, they probably will not survive before beyond the age of 40 Okay, so they needed to marry young in order to have especially the the kings of europe and you know The kings of egypt in the ancient time. So they They know this they knew this, you know, they will probably die in battle. They probably die in war or famine or whatever it is. Okay So, um, they had to marry young. Yeah, that's that's pretty much it. Yeah um Tom if you don't want to respond to that maybe uh, you could talk a little bit about how you do determine Um proper ages for consent. Maybe I mentioned that already we use psychological development whether or not they're cognitively capable to make decisions and rationally analyze consequences of certain decisions And so once they are both physically and mentally capable, so the human can also Look at the physical harm done to bodies who are prepubescent when they do get pregnant and recognize that it destroys their bodies and causes them Significant amounts of unnecessary harm. That's another reason why we don't allow those kinds of things So both the physical and psychological development Are the criterias that we use to establish whether or not it's Consensual to have sex with someone Can I respond to that? Yeah, please. Yeah, so um, he hasn't shown any evidence that uh, you know Aisha's prepubescent body was destroyed during having this so-called, uh, you know Consumption of measure and you know, whether Aisha was emotionally disturbed or emotionally Destroyed during this marriage to the prophet. He has not shown any evidence for this That part's not part of the definition. So whether or not you're emotionally destroyed Doesn't actually make a difference. It's still pedophilia So, yeah, you're just being biased No, I'm just being moral. I'm being moral. That's the You just told me you just state just now that you know having a just uh having a prepubescent marriage will cause emotional destruction destroy the bodies blah blah blah But show evidence for that that it happened to Aisha. No, no, no I said that it doesn't make a difference whether or not it emotionally damages the child or not It's still pedophilia. So even if it doesn't emotionally damage the child still pedophilia Yeah, so you're just being stubborn No, I'm being moral Well, I mean we can move to the q&a. I suppose Ladies and gentlemen, uh, if you do have a super a question for uh, the debaters tonight Super chats will go to the top of the list. We do have quite a list already So it is building pretty quickly, but I can go ahead and move into that if you guys want to do that Yes, please save. All right I got a super chat from let me uh, just quickly switched over to the timer so that we can keep track One second. So sorry Ladies and gentlemen, just want to let you know that our guests are linked in the description below So if you like what you heard from either of them tonight, you can go ahead and click those links right now And uh, you'll be able to check out more from them. I also want to let you guys know that uh You should definitely click the like and subscribe button We have more debates coming your way and you don't want to miss those and I now have my timer pretty much set So we will go ahead and move to the q and a Sorry, it was not prepared for that. Um Here we go 35 minutes on the clock first question from thunderstorm 4 99 Don't both atheists and muslims believe in geology with the stone of mecca I don't know what that means I have no idea what the question means all right Well, the next question is from bitter truth for ten dollars I say Muhammad married aisha when she was six and intercourse when she was nine. She hasn't reached her puberty. Also, Muhammad was um thinking I'm not sure what this word is While she had while she was six hadith say muslim he was sick Um, I think that is actually uh, there's some mistakes there Um, the prophet did marry aisha when she was six and he waited until she reached puberty when she was nine Okay, so if the prophet was a leecher was a pedophile or someone who is sexually Attracted to young girls as you know Some people accuse him off then he would have just consummated the marriage when she was six So why did the prophet had to wait until you know, she was nine years old until she reached puberty Yeah Okay from melody kate for 999 they say you cite so many royals and use it to justify the prophet's action But according to you he was god So he should know better, right? He was not a regular person or was he? As muslims, we don't believe that the prophet sallallahu wasallam was god. Okay, that is a christian belief they believe that Prophet jesus aleyhi salam was god. Okay. I'm not a christian I don't believe that the prophet was god incarnate working on earth He's a human He's a regular human just like us and he worked between you know He works between the most of his time and more and traditions. Okay He's not going to go into us in a time machine and go to the future and say oh look pedophilia is uh Long okay, or pedophilia is uh, oh this is considered pedophilia and then he comes back and then he does Whatever he needs to do no he has to work within the constraints of his time. Okay Got it from zagros oscan for 199. He says He saw aisha in his dreams. So he fantasized too That was a vision from god we as muslims we believe that is a vision from god He originally the prophet sallallahu wasallam did not want to marry aisha until he received that vision Okay, right So either either god is also a pedophile or It was made up in mohammed was a pedophile Though so those are the two options god pedophile or god made up those are the two options Uh, do you want to take the last word on that? No, he's just being something that's all All right from bitter truth. They say, um The father of aisha was against the marriage said He said i'm mohammed's brother. She is niece mohammed said he's not my real father I can still marry abu Bacar was sacred hadith said even history books muslim why lying? Yeah, so the explanation for that is basically during Uh, the kuraish in that in that time period. Okay in that era Uh, the practice of the errors was that uh, when someone considers you to be a brother They consider even though they're not blood brothers, but they when someone considers you to be a brother then They will treat you like a brother like a blood brother So that is why when uh, when the prophet, uh, expressed his intention to marry aisha Because abu bark, uh, rodi wal an considered, uh, the prophet to be his brother almost like a brother Therefore he asked he was surprised and he asked why You know, why would the prophet marry his daughter because they are like brothers like blood brothers So here so the prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said that uh, we are not blood We are not brothers by blood. So it is all right. So this is actually an example by the prophet to show that um islam only considers uh, someone to be related only by blood not by relative laws or you know by friendship or whatever only the Point of blood is stronger than anything else Got it from thunderstorm for 4.99. They say nine year olds is all kinds of wrong I've as I already explained in uh In my opening speech. I mean did that guy didn't listen Did that guy not listen to my opening statement? I've already defined what is a child And I've already shown examples of european kings practicing This wish the open my open air says they are all pedophiles. Okay. That's just throwing everyone under the bus. All right, so Throwing the pedophile But basically um back then anyone who has switched people tea is an adult Is that's pretty much it and I sure was an adult by all definitions of that time Okay Got it from ozzie and the gamer for five dollars. They say uh for a muslim apologist It is not moral just because it was legal your quote-unquote profits were immoral. You are a relativist It's not presentism and they were ignorant I would say that the questioner. He's also he's also present this. He's just throwing everyone under the bus I've already explained this Got it from es 1002 for two euros. I think uh For you muslim apologist if you lived in that time, would you copy him? Yes, I would of course From mars squeeze for five dollars. I say where is chris hansen? That's a a joke uh from industrial nerd for two dollars. I say little girls are okay, but not bacon I don't get what that means Oh, I think it's why it's okay to uh, marry a prepubescent girl but not eat bacon Oh Again, this goes back to my original statement. I think I don't want to repeat that again I've repeated it so many times Bacon is uh forbidden by the kuan is an explicit uh commandment. Okay, so yeah Got it from jupiter darman for five dollars I say I feel like I've spent an hour listening to Someone tell me why an adult marrying a six-year-old was perfectly fine. Am I right? Love you t jump and god bless that chair Yep, that's about right Can I respond to that? sure Yeah, so uh, yeah um, it is um, it is something of a of a Of a common practice by islamophobes and trolls and you know this ignorance to That the prophet color was Mary I shall when she was six and concentrated the marriage at nine They forget that there's a three-year gap between the marriage between this both this uh Marriage and for some measure So they need to answer the question. Why was it that the prophet son? I was silent waited until she was nine years old Please answer that question I don't know from hate From hate stands for five dollars they say Okay, from to the muslim apologist. Was it immoral to kill someone before kain killed abel? Yes Yes, he was interesting Um, that looks like this. That's the end of my uh Super chat list So if you have a burning question for one of our tonight's spaders and you really want to make sure that it gets answered Then you can go ahead and fire into the old live chat and as a super chat But if not, then I will go ahead move on to the other questions from uh sahi luke Question for t jump You cherry picked the hadith that says aisha was nine, but why? You didn't quote the hadith that mentioned she was 19 years old. Are you not suppressing the evidence? There are none There are none that said she was 19 when they consummated that doesn't exist Um muslim apologist. Is there such a city hadith that says that? Well, um, okay, so there are some scholars who Who deny not deny they they criticized the hadith which mentioned that aisha was Six years old and consummated the measure nine. So they look at other External evidence like for example her sister. Okay, her sister was around 20 years old and based on that understanding therefore the age gap between her sister and Aisha is was about a few years in difference And since that particular hadith at the same time which the prophet allegedly married aisha at the time Okay, I mean married aisha at the time The the difference between the ages is such that it can't be possible for aisha to be Sex according to this to this methodology, but I myself I don't adhere to this because I believe that there are serious implications If we if I or if we as muslims use this methodology so i'm just going with the Literal evidence and i believe in this hadith wholeheartedly that the prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam married aisha when she was six Years old and consummated the marriage activity when she was nine years old. So I have no problems with it. Okay Got it Super chat from bitter truth for five dollars. I said cas can you please arrange my debate with muslim apologists on the same topic? And uh, I would probably do that. Uh, send me an email or Link me link up with me on twitter or whatever and we can see what we can do Uh, can I can I can you tell me about that? I'm sorry. I say something. Can I say something about that? Please yeah, so that that guy who wants to debate me. Um, I have um Livestream every week so you can jump on and talk to me about it. You're free to do so I got a question Got a question from down on my end. Would muslim apologists allow his daughter to be married at the same age as aisha If it's if it's the prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, then yes, of course Of course without doubt in the blink of an eye. Did you say only for the prophet? Is that what you said? Yes Yes From bob's note, uh I need to read it. Uh Bob's no, oh, I'm sorry From es 1002 for two euros um They want to know about your criminal record muslim apologists Okay, sure. I will explain that. All right. So, um two years ago. Okay. I was uh My home my house was raided and I was first falsely accused of a crime Uh, unfortunately, which is which is related to pedophilia. Okay possession of child Okay, so the police. Okay the Malaysian police. This uh, this uh criminals. Okay called the Malaysian police They raided my home without a warrant Uh, they took my my staff. They took my desktop. Okay. This is not the desktop that they took But this is the exact room where they they conducted the rape. Okay, so I was arrested Okay, I was put in a lockup for three days and then I was released and then there was nothing ever since Okay, so to those people who keep repeating this lie over and over again I do have a team of lawyers who are actually going to sue the Malaysian police over this and it is in the works I can't reveal any details But if anyone in the chat repeats this lie over and over again I will instruct my lawyers to hunt them down and sue them for like Say that's simple All right from kawani upstate for five dollars They say if the Quran is perfect and needs no correction or editing Then does the muslim apologist agree with marrying young girls today or does he disagree? Sorry, could you could you repeat the question again? I couldn't hear Sure, if the Quran is perfect and needs no correction or editing Then does the muslim apologist agree with marrying young girls today or does he disagree? The Quran says that um women can be married off activity and um if the If the rule of if our authority our political authorities allow for it Like for example, there are so many countries where the age of concern is 14 years old 15 years old Sometimes 18 sometimes 21. So it depends on your locality if the authorities allow for it. Then why not? got it From Jeremy Nolan, uh, what age is someone not a child t-jump? um when they were an adult so like Say like 16 to 20 something like that Got it from don fulman for five dollars. I say for time jump Can I answer that? okay, so um In my country, okay, someone is considered to be an adult when He or she reaches uh 21 years old. So I guess anyone else who marries below that age is a pedophile, right? No pedophile is about prepubescent that only applies to nine to 12 But you just said that uh someone who reaches a Age of 16 is an adult in my country. It's considered to be a child So what's your standard pedophile only applies to prepubescent? So you're not answering because I'm saying that in my country You only reach the age of an adult when you are 21 years old. Is anyone below 21 a child? Yes No, not based on your country. No So he changes according to locality, right? No, I think there's objective facts. It's not based on not based on society at all Got it from don fulman for five dollars They say for tom jump. Would you allow your daughter to be married at the same age in the time of muhammad? No Got it from yeshua de king for 499. They say reliance of the traveler and The hadiyah are islamic books that allow marriage to a nine-year-old who hits purity even today if islam rules the land I've already actually talked about the reliance of a traveler in my debate with the prophet. I said that the reliance of Traveler is not reliable. It's not considered to be something authoritative. We have other authoritative works like the muwata like Okay, there's so many books. Okay. There's so many bulugun mara. There's so many other Authoritative books in in the islamic world and reliance on the traveler is not one of them Are you saying that he's wrong and that the reliance of the traveler does not agree with you? Basically, I'm saying that the reliance on the traveler is not it's not considered to be authoritative. That's all in the muslim world even Got it Okay from mark for 20 dollars. Thank you so much mark God slash Allah judeism to islam is inherently wrong morally speaking nine out of ten times So how do you justify his commands? Um, I mean, he doesn't give any real examples. I guess I guess, um, I'll just answer it generally okay, so As Muslims we believe that uh, no god throughout the ages send down his messengers to proclaim the message of truth to the worship of the one through god everham And in each time period in each situation, there are differences in the laws and most like for example Moses musa aleyhi salam. He would be more militaristic because the situation commands for it during jesus's time He would be more soft. He would be more apologetic because of the situation that calls for it He can't go against the lumen empire And during the time of muhammad sallam asalam the laws are also different because it puts the time and the time period and and the situation and we also believe that, you know, uh So we have the coming of the prophet the last messenger of god. Therefore the laws are applicable throughout all times So, yeah Got it. All right from miss. Della for five dollars. They say so are we just deciding on what our moral Morals are based on that the law allows I'm just giving examples, you see because uh, because uh, my opponent he's shifting the gopals He keeps changing his position. Okay. Yeah, so you can just watch back the recording and see how what he has done Got it from es 1002 For two euros. What if aisha hit puberty after nine years old? Then the prophet where waiter until she reached puberty at let's say if she reached puberty at 14 Then the prophet where waiter and she was until she was 14 years Because you cannot marry you cannot consummate the marriage Before, uh, you know, you reach puberty specifically. That's it. Yeah Got it From yes, you would a king for 199 they say Islam proves the authenticity of the reliance Or no, he doesn't. I'm not sure he he may have been I as well Yeah, the question doesn't make any sense anyway because uh, it's like cooking the chicken before the egg or the egg before the chicken Got it from notion slate for 499. They say have some self-awareness and quit debating when you have Uh, pedophilia charges. This is embarrassing As I said earlier, um, my lawyers are you know on standby if I were to If you repeat the lie against me, I will instruct my lawyers to sue you for labor. It's really decent Got it from nix for ten dollars So if your country recognizes adulthood at 21, how can you say that a child Is capable of making the very adult decision to have a sexual relationship with anyone much less than adult But you see in malaysia is a is a bit unique. I think this is a practice in other countries anyway But I am speaking in the context of malaysia So if let's say if someone who is 12 years old, uh, they for some reason he or she wants to get married Uh, they will need to petition the courts and the court here will hear the case and Listen to it and decide whether they are suited for marriage If the court says that they are not allowed to be married due to other reasons You know, even though if they may have reached liberty at 12 years old, then it will not continue Got it from Okay, so let's end the super chest ladies and gentlemen. If you have any more go ahead and send them in From nvix they ask they didn't allow adult women to consent Why would they allow a nine-year-old to consent As I've already said uh earlier. I think I've already repeated this so many times. Okay, the Parents of isha did not object to the marriage. They consented Okay, and the prophet waited until she reached liberty and she went into his household If isha wanted to reject this marriage. She could have said no She could have been because she already reached liberty. She's considered to be an adult Fit enough to make her own decisions Got it matt lee for two dollars. They say cringe And then another question from for your mind Modern day debate question for t-jump. Is it morally acceptable for ai pedo porn movie or a game? Uh pictures being generated that aren't of real people. I don't really care about it. There's not a moral no Got it from yeshawata king for 199. They say islam q In a website proves the book to be authentic I don't care what q islam q and he says okay Because we don't have the translation of the reliance of the travel in mind even in my mother tongue here in lazio In this region for that matter and we have so many translations of other works In in in my mother tongue. So it's not authoritative enough to be if it's not authoritative enough to be considered for translation Then it's not it's useless. All right Got it from Ames mcdougall did aisha's parents sell her off The short answer is no okay from free your mind uh What's your take on the low birth crisis women working? a factory and Do you think we need women to give birth and men to father a family to keep the population going? You know who cares about the population if the population goes down. Oh, well, it's not a bad thing As long as we have a AI to make up for the work. How doesn't matter if we have population or not Can I answer that god sure Okay, so, um, I believe in the family unit. Okay, so I think I've already Said this so many times even doing it past debates that islam promotes the family unit and ensures that uh, you know the human race continues therefore, um uh, it encourages marriage and um, yeah, so Continuance of the line the biological line of humans And you do it. Uh, wow, you know ensuring that the man Is as the leader of the family And the woman as the leader of the household. Yeah okay from Jay Jacob Grocek Question for muslim apologists. Of course from a muslim perspective. Aisha's marriage can be seen to be moral But why should people who don't hold a muslim morality accept this to be more? Because uh, marriage's a puberty was considered to be normal back then. Okay, so yeah I mean the standard is the standard for adulthood was puberty and the conditions of the time period Is a combinational factors. You can't just simply accuse someone of being Uh, a pedophile just because he or she got married at or consummated a marriage or have sexual relations When uh, when she was nine years old, how do you determine whether nine years old is uh, is below? Uh, it's it's mentally incompetent or whatever it is that you know Because it's before puberty that would be that's the answer. That's how you that's how you do it But I just said that Aisha would reach puberty when she was nine you just said that yeah Nine to twelve is all before puberty puberty is after twelve. She was she reached her puberty. She had a menaceous at night. Okay All right next question from es 1002 for two euros I think aisha couldn't have a baby due to fistula Um, I think I would think that this um, I I wouldn't know about the medical condition of aisha. She I mean you know because um The prophet's wives after khatija never did you know have any child from the from the prophet salam waslam. Okay, so um But they had child children from their previous marriages. Okay, except for aisha Of course, as I mentioned that aisha was a virgin. So of course not Um, but that being said, uh, I believe that this is with divine audience that there is a reason why Uh, you know, uh, the prophet did not have any children after his marriage with khatija Okay, by the way, he's married to khatija. Uh, he had about five or six children with her. Okay With aisha Well, I shot none. Yeah, none. Oh, do you know anything about this fistula? Uh, it's a medical condition where skin fuses together. I don't know what what it is related to Aisha or how it would relate to aisha. I'm just wondering. Did she actually have something like that? Not that I know Strange um from bitter truth for five dollars they say sahib bukari Five two three six aisha hasn't reached her puberty age while muhammad intercourse Aisha muslim. Why are you lying? I would say that person is lying because we have all the records that say that she reached puberty when she was nine years And she had a men's system and she was nine years old Got it Uh, next question from mark for five dollars. They say didn't answer the question Just use the old testament new testament and the koran to back up the same documents Uh, I don't understand what it means. I don't understand the question. So Um, I don't remember mark, but okay, let's move on. Uh Next question is from learn everyday seek knowledge uh Youngest girls who get pregnant at what age? health, I mean safely I'm guessing I mean, I know that I have saw a report of one like I think five year old I got pregnant once but that was because she was being molested by her father Anyways, uh from mark for five dollars. They say uh t-jump. Sometimes I don't agree with you But here i'm on your side That's right. I'm always correct No, no, no got it From pro debate from pro debates, uh at what age do women go through puberty? Can he cite a source on this? I'm not sure who we they're talking about. No, I can I can um, I have many sources actually on my website I actually cited many sources where uh women reach puberty faster in uh in extreme climates Like for example, if you are in The arctic or if you are in a desert or in the sahara desert, then you will reach puberty earlier than other people in the region In other regions. Okay, so I unfortunately I don't have the Facts and figures here, but you can go to my website Um, it's called this maker or huma. Okay, it's b i s m i k a l l a h u m a dot org And you can look up on that article on aisha. I actually wrote an article on this 20 years ago Okay, and um, I've laid out the facts and figures about about this marriage Wow From oscar davies, uh, muslim apologists. They're something called pastism So he's making fun of his his presentism saying that if you judge something by the present You're using presentism you're judging something being to be okay by the past when we pastism and equally as fallacious Never heard of pastism It's a parody it's a parody of your argument and from unknown Or yes, you're the king is muslim apologist, uh, salafi Yes What does that word mean? Got it I don't know No, i'm asking uh muslim apologists. What is what does that mean? What does that word mean? It means that someone adheres to the kur'an and the sunnah And follow the ways of the salaf meaning the first three generations of of muslims Gotcha All right from uh pro debates they say if a child goes through puberty at six would he be okay with someone back then having intercourse with them Sorry, could you repeat that again? If a child goes through puberty at six or earlier, I would ask would he be okay with someone back then having intercourse with them? Yes, of course. Why not? Back then okay back then The key word here being back then That doesn't make it any better. It's it's equally as bad no matter what time frame you put it I don't know why you keep saying back then as if it makes out less bad please then From bitter truth for five dollars they say I text sahi bukhari hadith where aisha said she hasn't reached puberty reference five two three six muslim why keep lying Then he needs to show the evidence. Okay, because uh, I've already answered this so many times. Okay, so There's nothing else to add to it. Okay, if he just wants to deny it, I mean what else can I say, right? got it from st. Benevolent Is it moral to have sex slaves in 2023? I guess it depends on on the situation. I guess today So It's not a moral or immoral discussion. Okay, that's I think this would be a separate topic entirely It's about slavery per se, but we don't practice it. So it's it's more okay the question that The question is actually more because we're not practicing in house. So The answer is no it is not moral. It would be immoral to have sex slaves at any time period from st. Benevolent from st. Beloved Is no, I'm sorry. I think I just read that uh from also Oh, we got a super chat from es 1002 for two euros Hashtag keep men's away from children Yeah, he can go uh fellow felons from also Also limo Uh for muslim apologist how old was aisha when a la showed her to muhammed in a dream? I guess six Got it, uh from Jack Nicholson For five dollars. They say does muslim apologist believe puberty defines adulthood. Does he know the pre-fourth Prefrontal cortex required for planning and executive function still develops into the 20s Um, yeah the first and to answer the first question. Yes To answer the second question question. Um, I would say that it depends on your your situation your condition Because back then things were extreme. So obviously the Prefrontal cortex would develop faster. Okay, today we are living Sometimes, you know, um, basically I'm relaxing in front of my monitor. I mean back then Do you think that we have time to do this? They will probably be Working in the fields or going to war. Do you really think that they will have time to wait until they're in the 20s? For their prefrontal cortex to develop Okay, uh super chat from bitter truth for two dollars. They say religion based upon lie muslim apologist just proved it Uh to that I will answer without lies islam tribes Okay, uh from also limo for uh, no, I'm sorry about that one I think that is the whole list ladies and gentlemen. I think we're at the end We have a couple of minutes. So if you do want to send your super chat in right now, it would be a great time to do so um Looks like something is Yep, I got them all So, uh, last words thoughts before we wrap it up guys Yeah All right, so all right, so ladies and gentlemen What about me? I'm sorry Can I wrap it up? Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Yes. Yes, please Sure. So, yeah, I've already presented several points regarding isha's marriage um, although I may Hey, you know, um, I hope that uh, you know tea jump. I hope you won't take offense to what I say I apologize in advance if I hurt your feelings. So, you know, whatever I know we're going to have serious disagreements over this But basically my position is that, uh, you know, uh, committing the fallacy of presentism. Okay, that's not, uh, you know, uh, make The prophet's marriage to isha immoral. Okay, so there is, uh, this has been practiced, uh, you know, uh, throughout the ages before the 20th century Uh, it's all about survival of the fitters. Okay Extending the progeny. Okay, and the mortality rate also Factors in so this is something very normal back then of course today We don't do this because we have so many reasons not to do this Okay, because we have the problem of pedophilia and all these problems like this sexual crimes. This the g-generates, right? So of course, uh, we don't do this but that being said back then there's no such thing So things were different back then. Yeah, so that is all I have to say All right. Well, thank you so much. Um Double check to make sure we didn't get any more um Looks like not Good. Okay. Oh wait. No, uh From es 1002 for two euros to say mensh if you were in a war, would you take a kid as a slave? Um, you're talking about present times and no, of course not All right, and uh from yeshia would a king for 499 They said you threw your salafi scholars under the bus by rejecting the islam q&a And they're ruling on the reliance of the traveler study more or stop line I don't bow down to scholars who don't go against the uh, there's the sunnah, right? So, um, they're not uh fallible. Okay, we don't all do respect to islam q&a. I'm they may have differences of opinion and That's up to them, but I don't agree with them. So if I don't agree with them doesn't mean I'm throwing them. I'm trying all scholars under the bus, right? All right. Well, thank you so much gentlemen, uh for this spirited debate Thank you to everybody in the live chat who sent in questions and super chats and elevated the conversation. We really appreciate it Uh, thank you again to the moderators and everybody who helped to keep the everything under control Uh, and once again, thank you to the debaters who are the lifeblood of the show So shared if you want to spread it like it if you loved it and subscribe We have many more debates coming your way. You don't want to miss our guests are linked in the description below There's an after show linked there as well. That'll be on my channel soon Thank you again everybody. Have a great night and remember to keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable. Have a great night