 Sorry, I want to draw the crowd like firearms and a marijuana. We're dealing with firearms today and then this afternoon we'll deal with marijuana. Thanks everybody for being here. I'll just repeat what the committee's charge is and the bills that we're dealing with. We're dealing with S1, S2, and S13. They're all introduced by Senator Rogers. They have to do with the high capacity magazines. And they seek to address some of the shortcomings that some saw with the bill that passed last year. Namely the ability to transfer those magazines to family members. And secondly, the shooting competitions which were effectively outlawed beginning July 1 this year. So that there would be no ability to have their shooting contest sitting there. There was one other bill that Senator Rogers introduced, S3, that we're not taking up. And that would have repealed current law regarding the high capacity magazines. And the reason we're not taking that up is because that's currently under litigation. And frankly, I don't feel that our committee should be involved in something when there is current litigation going on regarding that issue. Then we're taking up S22, which was introduced by Senator Baruth. And that bill has to do with a waiting period before someone could purchase a firearm and say storage firearms. We're not taking up another bill that was introduced by Senator Baruth. It has to do with printing. Frankly, I don't know how you do it because I'm not that technology. But it has to do with the ability to manufacture firearms from a computer printing about the firearms. And that is under some federal litigation right now. And there has been an issue against at least one manufacturer, if that's what you call it. And then finally we're taking up S72, which deals with the bill introduced by myself. And that deals with the extreme risk protection orders or risk flag laws that we passed last year. It does two things. One thing it does, it allows for an exemption for medical professionals who contact law enforcement about someone that they believe is a risk to themselves or others. And I will remind you that that bill not only dealt with firearms, but also explosives. So if somebody had dynamite or hand grenade or whatever. So that's not just reserved to firearms. That's one part of it. The second part of it, as many of you know, there's no ability to study the impact of firearms on a national basis. Because Congress has basically outlawed that funding. So this bill would allow emergency room doctors basically from around the country who have banded together to study these laws in various states. To use this information from both the Department of Health and the Court Administrators. Thank you Eric. Court Administrators office to begin a national study of the effectiveness or non effectiveness of these laws. So that's basically what we're dealing with. And we appreciate the people's interest. We will be holding a public hearing at Vermont Technical College on Tuesday, March 12th from 5.30 to 7.30. And we're doing it outside the State House. Those people are sick of going to the well of the house. And quite frankly, we felt it was more accessible. I think most of the committee would prefer to do it. Public hearing south of Route 4 is difficult this time of year. At least Randolph is right off the interstate. It's available to people from both the north and south and more accessible than Montpelier for a lot of our constituents. Senator White and I and Senator Nick are coming from the southern part of the state. So that's our plan. We will then deal with the bills after the town meeting break. That's the public hearing. If we invite anybody to come, sign up. Obviously, we're not going to hear from everybody that night. But if people want to be part of the record, they can send an email to myself or to Peggy Delaney, the committee assistant, win their thoughts. It will be entered as part of the committee record. Not necessarily posted on the website, but at least your thoughts will be part of the record on any of these bills. We'll just work them against them or whatever. So with that, our first witness is Rod Black. Mr. Black, you're welcome. Paul should have been well introduced if anybody wanted to get up. Thank you for being here and I know this was a very difficult time. Thank you for having me. My name is Rob Black. We are here to support the passage of the gun calling officer waiting period. We want to use that. Thank you for having us. My name's Alyssa Black. My name is Rob Black. We are here to support the passage of the gun calling officer waiting period. We want to use that. We feel that this law was in place right now that our son Andrew would still be alive today. I was born in Burlington, born and raised in Burlington. I went to Burlington High School on Champlain College. My great-grandfather was actually the Secretary of State years ago. I am a combat military veteran and I served in the military for seven years. Came home to work in the family business. I continue to do so today. I am a gun owner and I'm a Second Amendment supporter. But I do feel that a waiting period needs to be in place. Again, my name is Alyssa. I'm from western New York, Burlington. I met Rob when Rob was in the military. I met a Min-Gian who got married in July. We've been married for 31 years. Eventually we ended up having three children. When I was nine months pregnant with our youngest child Andrew, we moved to Essex. We moved there because it had good schools and it was in a relatively easy commuting distance for both of us. I currently work and I've worked for 22 years at a family practice in Williston, Vermont. So Andrew was our third child. We have three children, 28, almost 25, and Andrew was 23. He was a happy kid. He was a healthy kid. He grew up. He was involved in sports. He was active with friends. He did really well in school until he had some struggles in his final years, trying to maintain his interest. But he graduated from Essex High School. I guess it's been about four years ago. He graduated from high school. He was funny. He was incredibly bright. It was hard to hold Andrew's interest. One of the things that played into a little of this is that Andrew was actually kind of an impulsive kid. Like a lot of kids are impulsive. He would start a sport and he would play a sport for a year, two years, be really, really good at it. And then all of a sudden he would up and decide, I think I'm going to do lacrosse now. I think I want to do skateboarding now. And he would just change on a limb. It was very difficult to capture his interest, his final two years of high school. Andrew was one of these kids where if you wanted him to learn something, he was going to find something else that he wanted to learn. You know, I've gone through his room. He had notebooks. He used to keep notebooks on everything. Andrew, I think it was his junior year of high school. I think they were reading Animal Farm. I'm pretty sure it was Animal Farm. And he was captivated by, you know, the whole Russian thing around it. Andrew started skipping English class. He was teaching himself Russian. I have notebooks filled with him teaching himself Russian. And he couldn't speak it, but he could translate it and he could write it. He spent years doing that. He liked chemistry and I was kind of desperate. I mean he was about 16 years old and I just needed something to capture this kid's attention. Something to show him that all these things that they're trying to teach you in school actually have real life practicalities. And Andrew being Andrew, I thought, okay, I'm going to buy him a home brew kit. I want you to know I actually researched the laws behind it and there is no law in the state of Vermont that says you cannot brew, a 16 year old cannot brew in your own home. He was not allowed to sell it. He was not allowed to distribute it. But he was allowed to brew it, or at least my reading of the law and I'm not a lawyer. He was captivated by it. He absolutely was captivated and he was really good at it. He would do these extravagant recipes and, you know, if something just didn't work out quite right, he would have all these long notes on, you know, the boils should be longer or add calcium carbonate or change the hop on it. And then he would rework it and he would do it again and he spent years brewing beer. And it's the one thing that we got Andrew interested in and it's the one thing he held on to. He never left that. It was his dream to work in not just a brewery, it was his dream to work in one of the big breweries. He worked at Essex Discount Beverage, which is our local liquor store, convenience store. Even at night, he wanted to know what they should buy and he could have a 45 minute conversation with you about, well tell me what you like, what you've had before, and I'll lead you in the direction you need to go. And he was holding out for a job with one of the big guys. He wanted to work at the Alchemist, he wanted to work at Hill, or he wanted to work at Lawson's. We kept trying to get him to jump on to one of the smaller ones to start. He was going to hold out for the big one and he finally got his job at Lawson's. So we went for an interview in August at Lawson's and I know that they hired an awful lot of people. Most of the people had to do second interviews. Andrew was hired the same day, talked to Karen Lawson. She said he was out of that interview and they all looked at each other and said, we want him. So Andrew had challenges in his life, but it wasn't anything unusual. It wasn't anything that a lot of young kids, young men in particular have. Andrew was not mentally ill. He did not have a diagnosable mental illness. He was just your typical kid. We keep calling him a kid. He was a young man. He was just your typical young man who was finding his way. And he was making his way. He got this job. He'd been working for seven years at Essex Discount Beverage. He got the job at Lawson's. And he was so excited. And the Lawson's, of course, is up in Watesfield and we live in Essex. And he was making that drive every single day. And he loved driving there. He loved driving home. He loved being there. You know, this was his dream come true. At the same time, Andrew also had been in a long-term relationship for two and a half years. He was somebody he loved very, very much. At the time he got his job, he also felt it was time to end this relationship. Although he loved her, it was clear that it wasn't going to work. And it wasn't going to be sustainable. And so he had broken up with her at the end of September. He was moving out. He had gotten an apartment in Waterbury. And he was going to be moving into that on January 1st. The morning that Andrew died, he actually received his final. He'd been going through applications and being accepted for this apartment. He actually got the email confirming that the apartment would be his. He'd also been saving up his money because he needed first and last and deposit for this new apartment. So we actually did have, maybe it saved a couple thousand dollars for this apartment. So I think the important thing that I want to say is that Andrew was making these concrete steps towards his future. And they were all these positive steps. Unfortunately, I think, and I didn't think about this because I was looking at him from a mother. I wasn't looking at him as a 23-year-old man. He also had, in these last two months, he'd had a lot of loss. He'd left his job where he had been working for seven years with all the social interaction with the people that he knew and loved from there. He ended this relationship and, you know, the whole social circle that goes along with the relationship. When you're in a relationship for two and a half years, the two of you have activities and people that you live together. And when he ended the relationship, that sort of ended for him. So I do know that in the last two months or so, he had been lonely, a little bit lonely. I also know that he was making positive steps to reconnect with past friends. You know, we obviously have this fun and everything is social now. He had actually even reached out to an old friend who was a girl. And they have been having just a completely innocent conversation right up until Tuesday, December 4th. Trying to make the plans of, well, what are you up to now? Where are you? Maybe we should get together or something like that. He was making new friends as well. But he also had a lot of loss. Like anybody who's making a change in their life. So we know exactly what happened for Andrew. We know what was going on in his mind at the time. He left us 40 hours of conversation and explaining exactly why he was doing what he was doing. And also you can watch his mind kind of delve into this sort of self-hatred depth. And he just couldn't get out of it. He couldn't get out of it. We don't really want to give the details about the triggering event. Not because we don't want to be honest about Andrew, but we're actually trying to protect other people. So what happened was he got home on Tuesday, December 4th. He got home from work at about 8.30. And he came in, and he ate dinner. And we watched the hockey game, which we held the Canadian fans. We went downstairs, watched the Canadians game. And right about at the end of the game, he went back upstairs. He went up to his room. And this is when this 40 hours started. It has to do with social media. Saw something on social media. And he just couldn't move past it. He goes on in his messages. He starts out, he was angry, he was upset. You can see him turn the anger into himself. Just swallow it. And you can see this confident young man just start this self-hatred. I'm not good enough. Nobody will ever love me. I'm ugly. Andrew was anything but ugly. I know I'm his mom, but he was anything but ugly. How he'll never find love. How he wasn't worthy of love. I had a friend who's a psychiatrist. He sat with me for several hours. We went through all of these messages. And he looks at me at the end and he says, you know all this, clinically, I wouldn't even be able to diagnose your son with depression. He says your son had an acute adjustment reaction. A overwhelming reaction to a disappointing event in life. That's what he had. And couldn't make his way out of it. Unfortunately, when he got home on Tuesday night, he had Wednesday off and Thursday off of work. He always had two consecutive days off of work during the week. We weren't home. We were at work. Andrew spent two days basically alone other than Wednesday night. It was kind of like the perfect storm. I mean, everything came together, the social media, the two days off. And that Thursday morning he got up and we kind of know the steps he took from the phone messages and receipts and everything. We know he went down to the beverage place where he worked and he filled his car up with gas that morning. He got a turkey sandwich. He talked to the people at, he would go in there and get his coffee in the morning. And he talked to them about what he was going to do that night. He had plans that night to go out with our daughter and our other son and our niece. They were all meeting at five o'clock that night and he was telling them, this is what I'm doing today. And he had the day off. And we know that he went into the gun shop and they ran a background check on him at 11.02 Thursday morning, December 6th. We know he was out of the store with a firearm at 11.30. And we know he was dead before four o'clock that afternoon. Andrew had this path that he was taking that day that looked normal to everybody else. He, like I said, he went to Essex discount beverage. He got his coffee. He spent time with them, talked to them. He got himself his lunch. He got a Pepsi. It was in my fridge when I got home. He went to the store. He bought this gun, filled his tank with gas. He came home and he logged into his Xbox on Netflix and watched two episodes of Mad Men. He'd been binge watching Mad Men for the last couple of weeks. I mean, just regular everyday things. He did his laundry. Andrew has a collection of darn puff socks that he refused to dry. And that night, I go upstairs and there are all of his wet socks hanging on the towel rack in the bathroom. He did his laundry and he hung up his socks because he wanted to save them because he cared about them so much he didn't want to ruin them. He was never going to wear them again. But he hung them up to dry. He ate a turkey sandwich. First thing I did, opened up the garbage can and there's his turkey sandwich. Happy? Just a regular day. And reading through his phone messages when you get to the last day is so calm. You can almost feel by reading the messages, the doubt he had about what he was getting ready to do. At the beginning of this, of these messages, he set a countdown and he kept counting down. And he started his countdown at 36 hours. And then every once in a while he would come on with 19 hours. 15 hours. Andrew's 36 hours were up at 11 o'clock that morning. Andrew didn't kill himself at 11 o'clock that morning. He's got about two hours of messages in this time. And it was like he was doubting it. He was trying to give himself more time. You could see him trying to give himself more time. And he talked about how scared he was. I'm so scared now. I can't breathe. I'm having a hard time breathing. I've never been so unsteady in my life. And it was getting later in the afternoon and Andrew knew what time we would be home which would be within an hour or so. And I think it was the third or the last message he sent. He sent a long message talking about how he had doubted. He kept saying, pardon me, things that I shouldn't do this. That I should just wait and get my apartment and library. And then things will maybe get better. But knowing what I know I just can't see that happening. But then he kept trying to convince himself over and over again that he shouldn't do it. And then he said, the third to last message he sent, well he said, do you want to see something? Question mark. And then he said, I did something today that I shouldn't have done. And now it's too late. And then the person he was messaging said that they were calling the police. And he sent a picture of the gun laying on his bed. And then he said goodbye. And that was it. And I can imagine what he did. The dog would have been in this room because the dog was always with him. And if he was home, the dog was in the room. And he took the dog and he put the dog out of this room and he closed his door. And he locked it. And the whole time he was 15 feet away from guns that are locked up and secured and he couldn't get to them. He was 15 feet away from weapons that were secured and that had been there for years. He was running out of time. He knew the police were coming. He knew he had spent his rent money on this gun. He knew it was too late. He just was running out of time. And you can tell he didn't want to do it. But he did it because he'd said it in motion. Because he had said he was going to do it. And how could he go back on his word now? It started as a I'm going to do this to hurt you. And it became over the 40 hours and I have to do it because I said I was going to do it. And what choice do I have now? If we would have just had a chance to get home that night and just some kind of interaction with other people if we would have gotten home and had dinner if you would have gotten up and drove to work the next morning to Lawson's with the people that he loved. I mean, I know him. He had gone out to he was supposed to go out to dinner with Victorians Steven and Ashley. He basically he wouldn't have woken up and said what would I think? What would I think? You believe that a waiting period would have allowed you to talk to him? Absolutely. It wouldn't have given him time to actually be out and public around people. It wouldn't have given his brain at least a time to say because we knew he was coming out of it where he had been, this dark hole he had put himself into we could see him coming out of that. It wouldn't have given him time to come out of it. It was a fleeting two-day-long self-pity fest basically is what Andrew got into. And he wasn't given the time to get out of it. And we firmly believe we absolutely believe if there had been a waiting period he would not have done this. And I know that he wouldn't have done it because he said in his last message I did something I shouldn't have done but now it's too late. It was too late. He'd already bought it. What was he going to do now? So since this happened obviously and we were really open about what happened that was important to us. Very important to us that people knew how our son died. Honestly, we actually are armed with far more information today than the day we wrote that obituary. We didn't have these messages on that day. We were just shocked to learn because the first thing the detective asked us I remember him standing over our stairwell looking at us saying where would he have gotten his gun? I don't know. He's like, did you ever see it in his room? No. The thought that he had actually gone out and bought a gun that morning it just I couldn't even fathom it. We couldn't even contemplate that that something like that could happen. We learned the day we wrote the obituary was when the detective called us and said he bought it that morning. This is when the background check was. Later on when some of the doctors from my practice I worked out and removed injured mattress from his room. We found a safe under his bed. We didn't even know we had a safe under there. And we had the key to it. It was on this key chain. And we opened it up and there is a perfectly folded receipt for 1126 that morning. His credit card receipt. $1,000 he spent on this gun. And the bullets, the box of bullets packed neatly in the back. The instruction manuals and the things that come with it all neatly placed in the safe. Everything put away like it was for another day. We've heard from from numerous people over the last three months from across the country. Not just people in Vermont with similar stories, eerily similar stories of suicides of family numbers of friends. It's almost like they were telling Andrew's story. You never knew or I never knew how many people suffer from the same thing. I would wake up every morning and there would be three new Facebook messages that people contacted me on Facebook. Oh my gosh, this is my son's story. My son was 19. My son was 23. My son was 21. Specifically, how the waiting period in your view would have changed. We think, first of all, the only reason that anybody needs instant access to a gun is that they're going to hurt themselves or somebody else. There may be well-intentioned reasons for hurting someone else, but ultimately, that's the only reason anybody needs a gun in 48 hours. We own guns. This is not a light purchase. Yeah, I think a responsible on-owners do not go out and purchase firearms on an impulse. They plan the purchase. They know what they're purchasing it for. And I think a waiting period would disrupt that impulsive purchase of firearms. It would be a nice little speed bump for somebody that was buying it for the wrong reasons. A second part of this bill is safe storage. And you obviously have safe storage in your home. Do you believe that that's a necessary part of this, or do you don't care? Well, I'm not going to speak about safe storage because I mean myself personally, if you have children in your house or you have other people in your house and you're not storing your guns safely, I don't have words for you. I'm sorry. I just don't. But the other thing about safe storage, which is important, a 48-hour waiting period without that it undoes your safe storage. All the things that people talk about to interrupt suicide, there's not time to get to it if you don't have a waiting period. I mean, I can only imagine countless hundreds, thousands of people who know that somebody in their life is at risk and have taken their guns for them and stored them for them safely. Away from them. I work in primary care. The first thing when somebody has suicidal ideation that our doctors talk about is do you have firearms? Are they stored? And can you give them to somebody else to store for you? Well, what good does any of that preventive measure do if that person can just walk out and go buy another one? All the people trying to protect the people that they love doesn't do any good when a person can just buy another one. Senator Bruce has a question. So thank you first of all for coming. I have daughters myself and I've noticed one of the pieces of your story that resonates with me is I've seen it happen with my daughters where they're having a wonderful day. They go up to their room and they check into social media and within seconds their mood has crashed. They feel unattractive. I was saying to Senator Nitka there was a situation where my daughter found out on social media that an event was going on in real time that she had not been invited to with all of her closest friends and she felt at that point that life was hopeless. Fortunately she came downstairs. We cheered her up but when you struck a chord with me when you said acute adjustment reaction I think as a society with social media we're creating more of those momentary reactions and I'm wondering, I know you want to be sensitive to other parties but is there anything more you can say about that social media side of this? Did you ever notice that at other times with your son? Not with our son. Not with Andrew. Talk about daughters. It was as simple as seeing a picture on social media that put his life in a place to not get out. It was that simple and it was that fast. Andrew actually was not a big social media person. I know that that's unusual now what he saw I had actually seen a couple of days before I was just like whatever and so he had taken days to see that that's how often he actually logged into his Facebook between days. Vermont's firearm death problem is 90% according to a study several studies Vermont firearm related deaths are due to suicide so I think last year when we were working on firearm related bills that was strongly in our mind I'm curious if there was any way that the gun shop owner had any idea that Andrew might have been contemplating that type of use of the firearm. No, he didn't we know that information first hand Yeah, I ran into him at the price chopper I ran into him at the price chopper He's a really nice guy The gun shop owner we don't have any animosity against him and we talked for a while and he wasn't there but the employee that sold Andrew the gun because the detectives had all gone in there I believe the ATF actually had gone in also to make sure that everything had been done correctly which it had been he said that Andrew was fun and I don't have any doubts about that Andrew was a confident young man he was charming dressed well he said he came in and he was well dressed and was confident he was laughing he had a story behind why he was buying the gun which was a completely legitimate reason that he hadn't been buying it that there were absolutely no signs whatsoever he actually talked about another another family in the past that had questioned this and he gave me the situation of that person had come in and they had bought multiple types of rounds because they were going to try things out and he says so you tell me what about that purchase how am I supposed to know that this person is going to kill himself and he said there's no way we can know this and I don't blame he's not a psychiatrist he's not a psychologist he can't read the minds of the people who are coming in and the reasons that they're purchasing what they're purchasing you don't go into a gunshot when you're suicidal I would imagine but you don't go in shaking and crying and you know please sell me this gun so I can kill myself nobody does that other questions Mr. Mr. Chairman first let me offer condolences I think you're describing every parent's worst nightmare and I don't think there's anybody here in the room that doesn't sympathize you had described and your words in a dark hole and I understand from your testimony today as opposed to what I read previously that you have now had access to social media and notes and notes that have given you more information to learn about what was going on in his life at that time than you did initially when you first read the reports and the press about what had happened to you can you tell me what that dark hole period was that you recognized there was something going on we didn't recognize anything was going on with him we knew we'd gone into a dark hole because we read his messages after he was dead when he was in our house he was perfectly fine Andrew and I made dinner together Wednesday night he's got messages literally minutes talking about how worthless he is and then there's this 20 minute 30 minute block of time where he was downstairs in the kitchen making spaghetti with me and sat down and he had two big plates of spaghetti and he went back upstairs and there was a message that says I don't eat anymore I haven't eaten in three days I mean he was we saw him Wednesday night that was it Wednesday night when we got home from work at 6 o'clock until he went to bed at 10 o'clock four hours we saw him for four hours during this 40 hour stretch of time so the dark hole is what we learned once we read his messages did you get a handle on how long that dark hole had been in place it had started on Tuesday night Tuesday night when he saw the picture when he saw the picture I wanted to also thank you your willingness to come forward that's never easy and I can only imagine what you've been going through to be totally honest with everybody Senator Baruth and I met with the blacks earlier in this session and had a wonderful conversation about this and I think all of us in this committee offer our condolences for what you've been through but also you're brave for coming forward and talking about what is Senator Benning at the noted every parent's worst nightmare just to talk about that in front of the monitors is exemplary so thank you very much and if that helps to feel it all people keep calling us brave we don't think we're brave we don't, we think we're doing this because it has to be done it has to be done people think we're fairly thick-skinned politicians but we read you too and we read the comments after an article where there'd be the Bennington banner or Vermont digger or wherever it'd be and you wonder what the heck what am I doing this for I just stop reading comments but others may speak to that we're not totally naive we understand that this isn't a cure-all solution for the problem but it's a pretty good speed bump to getting there in just a couple of days to give anyone a fighting chance because once they have a gun in their hand the fighting chance is over this will not end we are not naive this is not going to end all suicide by firearm you know that but it could save some and if people could live our life for the last three months and the part of what our life has been these past three months we can say one family from having to go through this Andrew ran out of time just needed a little bit more time and that's really what we're just talking about we're just talking about a little bit of time other questions thank you both very much and we appreciate you again I had a couple of minutes Peggy I don't know that we're going to get to the witnesses on S-74 S-72 which Bill I introduced goes off on that first of all my condolences to you too I appreciate it we've all lost somebody my name is Ed Cutler I'm the president of gun owners in Vermont first we would like to commend Senator John Rogers for introducing fixes to the unconstitutional magazine ban however we cannot support this bill due to the possibility of dangerous events S-23 we love the bills what we hate is what's probably going to happen in the house S-55 is still very clear in our heads I remember that one are you you're referring here to S-1, 2 and 13 and not S-22 S-22 is the waiting period in the safe zone well this is the magazine okay go ahead yeah I think I got it we love the bills we really do we're afraid that even 1, 2 or 13 passes they'll get 2 in the other body they'll get housed and I really hate to say it it's a lesson that was hard learned by all of us go ahead I'm sorry that's fine okay okay we are confident that Vermont Federation Sportsman's Club's litigation will prevail so we're asking to put a hold on them until definite court case and we'll see what happens with them if that happens the magazine disappears completely so we support the Federation and we think that's a great idea I'm overjoyed that they're doing that now there has been quite a bit of misinformation put out by Gunsense Vermont and Vermont's demand action two anti-gun organizations operating within Vermont the groups are funded by billionaire Michael Bloomberg according to these groups Vermont is an extremely dangerous place to live citing the high its high firearm homicide rate that homicide is not murder according to the FBI uniform crime report the average firearm murder rate has gone down over the last 20 years in Vermont now averaging 3 a year homicides including police shootings, self defense and accidental shootings or homicides Vermont has the lowest firearm murder rate in the nation and one of the lowest in the world for my tax okay I have a link on the election one that you can go to that actually shows the actual homicide rates in Vermont and how they're actually cold-headed for instance in 2012 the public radio reported there were seven reports of homicides breaking them down two were from police shootings one was an accidental spark another was a defensive use of guns one originated outside of Vermont in crime point New York that only left two actual murders in 2012 yet the anti-gun organizations continued to mislead by charity statistics to further their agenda in 2016 there were reported seven homicides as well however the actual breakdown shows that two of those were from police shootings oh I'm sorry I've been there okay firearm pushing for awaiting periods to purchase firearms in order to accomplish a cooling off period in fact in the last two years 20 years there have only been three instances of people walking into a gunshot buying a firearm and committing suicide that's over 20 years okay in one of those instances the person that did it actually bought a firearm two days before they committed suicide fact awaiting period can be very dangerous if a woman is being stalked by an abusive husband or any stalker awaiting period could be the difference between life and death according to the network Vermont network against domestic and sexual violence the most dangerous time I gotta get new glasses the most for victim of domestic violence is when he or she takes steps to leave the relationship one should not be required to wait two days in order to protect themselves by the best means possible fact you may also need to have a firearm protection against rabid animals which are on the increase in Vermont just a few months ago bobcat attacked two separate people in locations around White River Junction so rabies is a serious problem in this state we had a rabies epidemic 15 years ago and it's on my fear is it's coming back fact two thirds of gun owners own more than one gun a cooling off period for these gun owners could not possibly have any effect as they already own other firearms anti-gogal evidence about a person who purchases a firearm and then immediately uses it to harm themselves or someone else is just that, ancodotal there is no scientific evidence that waiting periods no matter the span of time have an effect on suicide waiting periods as well as newly enacted act 94 background checks have and will sabotage a successful program led by the gun owners of Vermont the Vermont gun shop project as it called encouraging an individual who is contemplating suicide with a firearm to voluntarily transfer their firearms to a trusted individual this trusted individual will hold the firearms until the gun owner feels that he or she can safely retake possession of their property but this program depends on the spur of the moment interaction between the parties both waiting periods and background checks have effectively destroyed that interaction these interactions are very time centered you know how much I love this program last year universal background checks were passed into law in no small part by lobbying efforts of gun sense Vermont more than just an indication in convenience UBC have provided proven detrimental to the existence to an existing successful suicide prevention program the gun owners of Vermont Federation's enforcement clubs are leaders encouraging an individual who is contemplating suicide with a firearm to voluntarily transfer that transfer there and we've got it in front of us so don't worry about it okay you got the just I've got readers too that sometimes don't you know I mean I personally I've got a lot of firearms for three separate individuals those people walking the street now I've taken the gatekeeper program I've busted my tail doing this and dozens of other of our members have done the same we've cherished this program and to do something like this I'm sorry to do something like this with this waiting period trans could I ask you the program that you're talking about just could you explain specifically how the waiting period or the universal background check I'm holding firearms to one person now a friend who was contemplating that now I took those firearms and before the UBC well I took it back the problem now is when I have to give them back I have to give them back why is that a problem it's a problem because most gun owners are terrified of getting those records a person who contemplates suicide doesn't want everybody to know what's going on or you don't have to declare that it's just a back of it sorry just trying to clarify I understand if you look at your fact when those suicides do not want to relinquish their firearms when reaching out for help they want them to be stored in a safe place now in order to give the person a firearm they get it back at $40 $10 guns is $400 is that your literally average of an elderly charge is $20 for a transfer I take the gun in it's a transfer I give the gun back to another transfer that's $40 for one gun each individual can actually go through a separate transfer I only reacted because you were as I saw you were accusing me of destroying your program it seems like your program still exists there's a fee added it's in existence but we can't do anything like this we can still have that bell dealers take the guns in but most people don't want to do that I don't want to sure I do want to given the black's testimony that there was no sign that they don't have any animosity or will against the gun shop owner who sold the gun to their son because there was absolutely no sign the gun shop owner so there was no way to slow this down I'm repeating their testimony but I think in light of what you're saying the project I believe in but it's not going to work for everyone but not work for Andrew Black no there's my you might not work for a number of people but it is, like I said, I don't know how many we have done but personally I've done and held down to you I don't want to say how long I've been here for a quarter of a century I think I have shown support for gun owners throughout that period but there's one area where I've kind of veered and that's when there's suicide and domestic violence but suicide particularly because I see that as Vermont's gun problem and so I would love to have from anybody as well as UED and anybody else statistics from other states that have been waiting periods and how that's impacted suicide rates by firearm as well as the participants the problem is Congress doesn't allow any studies actually they do but anyway so that would be helpful to all of us you've got facts here and I suspect you've got some statistics if you can get those to the committee I'll get Bob to get them I think we're the only state in the country that doesn't keep suicides as we know that roughly 90% of the gun related deaths in Vermont are from suicide but the vast majority of the others are related to domestic violence I would agree with you in your contention that Vermont's not a violent state unless subject to domestic violence or you're contemplating suicide even with domestic violence actually we've checked the numbers on that and the difference between murder and domestic violence the three a year is 50-50 but anyway okay Vermont has generated has generations of parents teaching their children how to handle all kinds of firearms for the purpose of hunting target shooting and personal safety it is a Vermont tradition we need to continue this tradition instead of installing fear in our kids by marketing firearms as a scary object never to be handled the next generation of young Vermonters should continue to be schooled in the proper handle and safe use of firearms not to be taught fear and loathing of an inanimate object that could very well save their lives our young Vermonters need the opportunity to have the choice of and use of firearms as a positive ideal and not to be brainwashed and to believe in otherwise one other thing I did send two emails one last night and one this morning the one this morning is came I pulled off of our website it has the CDC data on suicides and murders I think it's just what you were asking for I'm looking at both of these I appreciate your concern about housing I love that word we'll use it frequently because there's a lot of other bills that get housed oh yeah I've heard any other questions and thank you very much for making the trip I appreciate it Bill Morse Vermont Traditions Coalition Policy Analyst I know that feeling good morning I'm going to try to get to Dr. Bell so I may skip around a little bit I was going to say Dr. Bersaudi is driven all the way out well he's not he's by phone he's phone I emailed him I haven't heard that he would wait my time yeah he was just in the emergency room not actually he's treated me in the emergency room so I have a lot of confidence in him on the flat he's there not here I've looked him up it seems like he's the first one to be confident he's a good man so I'm sure he would not want to be so I appreciate my name's William Moore I'm the Fire and Policy Analyst for Vermont Traditions Coalition I'm also representing the Green Mountain Boys Shooting Club and the Vermont Military History Museum LLC which is located at the Green Mountain Boys Shooting Club sometime we need to talk about the canon but other than that did you hear it so I have separated my testimony you have one paper copy of the testimony on 22nd 72 I misprinted the other so I'm reading that now okay in this testimony I also as I said represent the Green Mountain Boys Shooting Club and the Vermont Military History Museum these LaMoyle County groups are comprised of over 450 annual dues paying members and have held a variety of shooting and historical events since 1999 the largest is a July event attracting 300 to 400 participants with between 1500 and 2000 spectators that event also features food vendors and in the interest of safety we hire the LaMoyle Ambulance Service which provides an onsite ambulance with EMT team during operating hours the multiplier of economic effects similar events as well documented and a great help to this local economy Plans to construct the Military Museum and events building at the site were placed on hold last year following the passage of the large capacity magazine ban and reservations for the summer events have stalled due to the large out of state attendees being uncertain about their legal situation pardon me many acquisitions of small items and large equipment were planned for the museum including vehicles from World War I, II of Korea and Vietnam which may have included some magazines and belt feeding devices affected by the ban obviously we support the lawsuits questioned before the court and we look for them to have some clarity on that we are not a party to this suit by the way I'm not listed as a party while not all our events are competitive in nature the museum and club shooting ranges have also been used for training and educational components including the historical display of vehicles and weaponry at our summer events most recently the local Boy Scout camp has been using our range for offsite hunter education and shooting safety classes for youth without the fundraising capabilities of these and yet to be imagined associated with the club and the Vermont military history museum most of these events will likely cease and the club may have to close for going any future opportunities for the site to host safe and economically robust activities I've spoken to Senator Rogers and we would like to ask that his bill regarding the ability for people to come and go to Vermont with legally owned magazines we've asked that we include historical and educational events along with quote established shooting competitions which is already in the bill while this will not facilitate our ability to pursue acquisitions for the museum that would violate 13VSA otherwise it would allow for the free and predictable scheduling of future events that are literally the lifeblood of this important community organization so I am going to switch to testimony that is regarding 22 and 72 if anyone wants to have questions on those on that subject first happy to hear those we do support all three of Senator Rogers bills and to be clear we support those bills with the reservation that they are pretty clear simple remedies and that they not be used for other purposes as they move through the building on the we're opposed to the use of a waiting period for reasons that I'll outline in this testimony and my main concern is that there are people who are not meant to be the target of a waiting period who will be prevented from acquiring a weapon that they can use for home defense in a crisis situation you can use your imagination as to who those people might be the reporting of activities under the new IRPO statute is something we would support having accurate records of those and an ongoing record of how those are applied by the courts and what those outcomes would be is something we would support the safe storage is written in such a way that I think it lends itself to inadvertent accidental violation by people who are meaning to use and have available at their disposal their firearms in their homes for self defense so just so we're on the record on all those bills so I will be furthering documents, testimony, some of it from the Senate Education as a matter of fact to be posted and for you to consider as you review particularly the waiting period so please accept my gratitude for this opportunity on behalf of Vermont Traditions Coalition as you know we represent a broad coalition from snow village to forest land owners and the hunting, fishing and trapping communities in this meeting we're asked to focus on a broad list of bills with varied goals and different policy goals I will not be testifying in detail regarding these two bills as may be expected one concern is the emergency risk protection orders and proper judicial application and domestic violence cases and the other is a straightforward proposal for new restrictions on the lawful private home possession of firearms instead I will provide detailed authentic research and testimony of others and source from public arenas including testimony from other committees here in this building some are related to disruptions experienced by teachers of Vermont schools some are from practitioners of restorative programs in school systems here in Vermont another area I will provide documents will be in the larger picture of suicidal behavior and prevention I'm not an expert I spent my time not looking at gun rights organizations statements on waiting periods I went to the people who talk about suicide prevention all the time and I would highly recommend the Vermont suicide prevention council's website following my research some observations follow I suggest you read these documents that I will forward to see if my observations are valid in testimony before the senate education committee teachers and other professionals have detailed experience and professional recommendation at dealing with precursor behavior to all types of these violence including suicide reporting collaborative peer-to-peer restorative practice and stronger social and psychological intervention are all suggested as well as the need for more robust social services and mental health crisis intervention in the schools in the larger community also striking in my research is the consensus in the mental health and emergency medical community regarding the identification intervention and response to behaviors and actions that provide diagnostic clues to the dangers of suicidal or other violent behaviors in individuals these sometimes include a statement regarding firearms in the home or possession by the individual other means such as pharmaceuticals are not quantified separately the articles are reviewed perhaps they should be what is striking is that the availability of firearms or other means are way down the list of indicators or actions that suggest a clinical response is likely to be successful rather the response in the form of friends family and colleagues in love kindness understanding listening and offering in accessing resources is always stressed through these papers professional clinical treatment and rehabilitation can rarely succeed except it follows these these bills do not appear to follow these professional advisory and do not address the paucity of clinical and professional availability in Vermont and our schools those solutions do not really even fall within the purview of this committee in many cases all of us in the firearms owning community stand ready to assist in strengthening any means to these ends that will be successful as the testimony regarding the proposals is yet to be heard by the committee in support of in particular the background or the waiting period proposal I wish to return and be able to respond to that testimony without supporting statements from professionals regarding these proposals I'm not yet prepared to refute or assess their positions on the need for these remedies these allow me to read from a short dialogue at one of the Vermont Suicide Prevention Council's website pages by Professor Thomas Delaney UVM Larner's College of Medicine he was recently on VPR I've heard the program he was one of the speakers he was very articulate and he takes a sort of a myth and fact approach in one of his these letters from one of his articles and one of those is and I'm reading it in full I'm not cherry-picking parts of it he has misconception suicide attempts are really just about people feeling sad and hopeless reality most people who die by suicide have an underlying mental health conditions such as depression anxiety disorder substance abuse disorder or personality disorder other suicide risk factors include increased use of alcohol and other drugs feelings of anxiety, agitation and recklessness sleeping too little or too much isolated or withdrawn from others or displaying extreme mood swings signs of a depressive disorder include irritability lack of energy change in dietary habits changes in appearance, restlessness and changes in activities that a person once found pleasurable a strong emphasis on building skills for redirecting thinking coping, help-seeking, self-care communication has been shown to be effective for treating risk factors for suicide I come from a family of survivors my mother was raped by her brother at ten years old it changed her whole life she was too late in life for her to really enjoy the benefits of proper clinical attention she was finally diagnosed in her last years having bipolar and exhibiting deep depression related to her bipolar disorder partly organic partly caused by post-traumatic stress the rest of the family has a mixed result of alcohol depression, addiction and so on this is something you survive it isn't something that the law strictly speaking can address I'm certainly more of a benefit sitting here before you today by the people in my family my friends my church than any law proposed in any of these bills I'm sitting here sober and relatively calm and happy and able to function in life in spite of the law because where the law can help is the areas that I've been discussing and you need to go to the professionals I don't believe the waiting period is an effective tool I think it will disrupt perhaps as Eddie said it may disrupt relationships where this gunshot project can also function in this but more to the point it may create a disruption for people who need to access a firearm because of a true threat and so to you I would say look for other areas and perhaps there aren't even something that this community will be able to address I think they're expensive and they're complicated but they do require one thing and that is relationships one thing is I better leave that for you I was about to say that one thing the state hasn't been very adept at is dealing with a mental health problem in this sentence hurricane particularly a particular problem that I've been trying to deal with I just think two governors two different groups of legislators have not adequately addressed that problem in the state and it's seen in our emergency rooms now it's seen wherever we are and I'm not suggesting that these bills are related to that in terms of mental health issues in the state we're not addressing the real problems I look forward to hearing from Dr. Bercotti and also from if you can give us your lenient I think that'd be an excellent way to go do the best we can with the time we got Senator White one of the things that's kind of floating around the building that we've heard from primarily from gun owners is the kind of a compromise that would have first time gun owners have a waiting period the problem with that is how do you prove that you're a first time or that you already have a gun but if that could be done that might for people who already own a gun if they want to do something with it they already have a gun but for first time gun owners is that something that seems doable or workable or portable yeah I've heard several ideas along those lines unfortunately most of them lead to something that looks and smells like a list and that is what probably you've been told as well I think as Ed pointed out one of the things about the next background check system is that the perception of lawful gun owners is that it creates a sort of a list well they don't mind the background check itself it's the paper trail that sticks under some of their crop having said that I have some ideas as to how you flip that thing on its head and be able to allow people to somehow deal with that problem without a list but I think it's too it would be premature for me to discuss that at this time again I want to reiterate that if you're doing a lot of laundry and you have a dry line outside that sits long and you've got 40 pieces to put up and you put one up and wait for it to dry and you put another one away for it to dry you're not making any progress and the waiting period is a very little tiny pinprick at the problem and it may have unintended consequences against people who you definitely don't want to address people who really have a need you'll probably also hear mention and I'd like to hear from the FFLs of the inconvenience and the difficulty for their sales but I think that's at the top of my list thank you so much I appreciate it I know you'll be I'm going to do my best to get to everybody today but we will meet on this again when we get back so my name is Rebecca Bell I'm a pediatric so too many microphones so I'm a pediatric critical care position I work at the University of Vermont medical center in the pediatric intensive care unit we are the only pick you as it's called in the state of Vermont we need to we need to put a VPR on it so that they know I'm also relevant to this discussion I sit on the Vermont state child fatality review team so we review all unexpected fatalities under the age of 18 I'm here representing the Vermont chapter of the American Academy of Pediatrics we represent 200 Vermont pediatricians and the Vermont Medical Society representing the Vermont physicians in support of S22 so we support a waiting period and we support safe storage of firearms so I wanted to start first by quickly presenting the problem and what we can do and what the evidence shows we can do about this problem so to start I have two maps of CDC data of suicide rates and overall rate one is just 18 years old and younger and they're very similar but this is over the last 10 years that we have data for and it shows that Vermont stands out both for the overall suicide rate and in particular for youth suicide rate so we consistently have the highest youth suicide rate in our region and one of the questions of course is why? Why do we have lower borders with other states that have much lower rates of youth suicide and the first thing we think about is mental health so there was a paper that came out actually in January of 2019 looking at this so researchers took youth suicide rates and then they looked at youth reported symptoms that you would think would be with death rates so all high school students across the country fill out an anonymous survey every other year called the youth risk behavior survey so almost all Vermont high school students fill this out and they look at a bunch of different things but the researchers pulled out three questions that are relevant youth reported severe depressive symptoms and they describe what those are in the last year youth reported suicidal planning have you made a plan to attempt suicide in the last year and actual suicide attempt rates so have you attempted suicide in the last year those numbers to give you a broad perspective in Vermont and elsewhere over the last 10 years has risen we're not back to where we were in the late 90s the numbers were worse in the 90s they kind of came down and then the last 10 years have been trending up again the last few youth risk behavior surveys actually in Vermont we've stayed pretty steady we haven't continued to increase so that's a cautiously optimistic sign but certainly I work with patients who deal with this stuff and this is a problem that we're dealing with when we compare Vermont rates of those things to other states we have some of the lowest numbers in the country so this study that came out in January of 2019 looked at over the period of 10 years Vermont had the lowest suicide attempt rate among young people one of the lowest suicidal planning among young people and one of the lowest reported symptoms of depression yet they are dying and so the researchers looking at this said why why are there some states like Vermont and there are other states similar to us where our reported mental health issues that we think would be very closely correlated don't predict our death rates as much what they found what was a more predictive factor were states that had high gun ownership so actually and if you look at the map you can kind of predict that so which states have the highest death rates they are states that have high gun ownership they are also reported yep those two things tend to go hand in hand yes and so the issue we have is the lethality of the method used so although our young people are attempting at a lower rate they are dying at a higher rate because the method that they are choosing is more lethal in Vermont and all across the country the most common commonly used method in suicide deaths are firearms our overall population it's about 56% in Vermont for the general population and for our young people 18 years and younger about half of our young people who are dying by suicide do so by firearm and so when you compare the variability among states it's really that extra firearm use driving our numbers so the firearm tends to create the variability between the states so more so than at a state level reported mental health issues so that's at the state level and at the individual level we find a similar pattern so young people that die by suicide tend to actually have a history of impulsivity much more so than a history of mental health issues or a history of depression so looking at those individuals at an individual level and a state level the presence of the firearm the use of the firearm is much more predictive than other pieces although they all sort of contribute so then the next question is is there something we can do about it and should we and that's sort of where we go into what does it look like for young people who attempt suicide I'm talking about young people because that's the population that I work with I work in the pediatric ICU I take care of young people who have attempted suicide usually by other means other than firearms those in this state who use firearms don't make it to my ICU they this is an immediately fatal method the difference between those who choose firearms or something else very lethal and those who choose say an ingestion actually those who choose ingestion tend to be planning the suicide a little bit longer they tend to be a little bit more depressed than those who use firearms ingestion but regardless people do this impulsively young people do this impulsively and I know you have a lot of testimony every year I came before this committee last year and I told the story of in general the patients that I see and the impulsivity and the temporary crisis that they're going into that leads to their suicide attempt and I can only speak in general terms I can't tell the stories of my patients I can't tell the stories of the child fatalities that we review in our team but I can tell you that they're the story of Andrew Black and hearing his parents tell his story this is not just this is not a unique tragedy this is the story of Vermont this is what I hear when I talk to my patients who have survived a suicide attempt and I ask them what happened and what you don't hear is a story of an inevitable outcome what you hear is something happened I got in a fight with my friend my girlfriend broke up with me I got in a fight with my parents I was really really upset I was feeling pain and I wanted the pain to end and it doesn't make sense but a lot of these young people don't really want to die does that make sense they want the pain to go away they choose a less lethal method I have a lot of stuff in my ICU that I can do to help them I'm an amazing team and when we help a young person get through a suicide attempt and survive that we feel really good about that because we know that people who survive 90% of them go on to live and don't die by suicide so this is not an inevitable outcome this is a temporary usually a response to a temporary crisis to a lot of pain and if they choose something that then as soon as they do it they regret it they call for help we can do something to help them I cannot do something for people who choose to use a firearm I can't excuse me the black family used the phrase acute adjustment reaction that may be a different clinical description for something similar to what you're talking about do you have anything to add on that is that the kind of thing you're speaking of I'm speaking of that I even the stories that I hear are even often times shorter than Andrew's stories than what his parents described I hear I saw this post on social media I hear my parents took my cell phone away I hear that was on the phone with my boyfriend my boyfriend broke up with me and I got really upset so I even hear a shorter a shorter period not even I'm in a dark place for two days I was really upset five minutes ago and then I did this I've had people attempt suicide in the midst of having an argument actually arguing with their parents you've never had someone who attempted suicide with a firearm who you could say is that I'm just trying to make clear that's your testimony once person used the firearm it's fatal and there is no in my career I have taken care of a patient who did attempt suicide with a firearm who I took care of a year afterwards who was coming in for massive reconstructive surgery so this person had survived but had incredible morbidity as you can imagine yes I take care of I don't want to put words in your mouth what you're basically saying is someone who tries to ingest pills cuts their wrists other methods are not necessarily fatal by and large firearms are fatal because of their fatality they're very lethal and the difference between someone who chooses a firearm and someone who chooses pills there's not much difference a lot of times we think if they chose a firearm they really really were intent on dying but we actually find the opposite is true if anything both do so impulsively does a non-firearm tend to actually have been planning it for a little bit longer you're seeing how you obviously talk to colleagues in other states is this true in other jurisdictions as well where the firearm is very difficult for you to see in a position or yourself to yes and if you just look at suicide deaths just across the country of any age group the most common method is a firearm it's the most lethal it's the most lethal method yeah I did by way of insure physician I had a lot of procedure yesterday it's not against you and I'm causing this now positions don't provide the same level of painkillers that they can provide these under this legislature which is a good thing we use ice ice is actually great I just want to explain that to you you feel like it's not your testimony yes when researchers talk to young people and that includes up to age 35 and who survived near fatal suicide attempts and talked to them about what's that time here between what you thought you wanted to you were going to attempt suicide and when you did it about a quarter said less than five minutes an additional 50% said less than an hour and then some other percentage less than a day so that age group up to you know it's like 15 to 35 year old age group that time period is very very short and then both this waiting period and the safe storage for me really combine to address some of this impulsivity and suicide among young people in Vermont so although we raise the minimum age of these firearms in this state there are some exceptions if you have taken a course so waiting periods still affects my patient population potentially and then the safe storage piece in addition that's generally how young people in the state die by firearm suicide it's a non-unsecured firearm in the home we do know that using the firearm in a locked container storing it unloaded and ammunition stored separately each one of those practices independently reduces the risk to get all together they really reduce the risk of a child, a young person using the firearm either in an unintentional shooting or a suicide so as part of what we do as pediatricians is we talk about this we counsel families a lot of work being done how can we best get the message out there how can we do so in a way that isn't threatening to families but provides education about how to safely store firearms working on providing this type of safe storage equipment to families so it's easy having families talk to each other when their kids go over to other homes are your firearms safely stored this is all part of improving this safe storage bill is one I appreciate that it's currently written I'm not sure how you would force a safe storage law I don't think many people would disagree that safe storage is a good idea I just don't know how you would force what's happening in somebody's home and how they're taking care of their firearms until an incident occurred that's one of my you know as we we have the right we believe we need the right laws that you can enforce that's one I know that the Department of Mental Health I believe and maybe the Vermont Medical Society I'm not sure how this works but I know there is a program that distributes some lock boxes or locks or whatever they are has that made a difference at all do you think? oh well I think that's a really tough thing to measure in terms of just safe storage all law enforcement offices have for instance cable locks which are not the best way to secure but people can get those for free some places like you mentioned the Medical Center, the Howard's like give out lock boxes that could be used for a handgun it's not done in a way that we can really study I guess it's sort of just a little bit haphazardly done we do know you know part of it is talking about and getting the message out there we know that the behavior of safe storage makes a big difference and we're trying to figure out what the best way is to encourage that I think part of it might be the education and the PR a safe storage law so that people know about it but certainly that's only a very small part of it and the rest of it has to be us as a society talking about it to each other and us talking about it to families about safe storage I think that's a big part of it and none of these none of this stuff is going to fix everything of course but I think I work a lot on what are the words we use of families to talk about safe storage it's a touchy subject for some people it's really important I think yes legislating it is going to be hard but I think that some of the education and PR around it could could change the way some people store their firearms it's a hard thing to measure the studies that I've seen have talked about somewhere in a single digit percent decrease in suicide among young people like 8 to 10 percent we don't need to get into that I would write the bill today but it's something that I'm aware of other questions for Dr. Bell thank you thank you so much for joining us today okay and we thank all of you for further information yeah sure Chris from the my federation being here our time is short I'm going to be on the other person between the prestigious senate channel and lunch yes I'll just want to repeat thank you for the record my name is Chris Bradley I'm the president of the sports clubs thank you for providing me an opportunity to start the committee for any of you who do not know about the federation we are an organization that traces its roots back to Vermont back to 1875 we are in essence an association of clubs the federation is an umbrella organization that represents over 50 sporting clubs across the great state of Vermont with those clubs representing tens of thousands of Vermonters in the packet of information I have provided there are individual statements concerning the 13th as I perceive my time to give testimony will be limited by necessity I will state that the federation fully supports all three of those bills as they correct several oversights that resulted from the rather unsettling speed with which things were pushed through the house last year I felt that issuing a strong statement of support for s1, 2, and 13 are adequate and given my time constraint I will therefore devote my time to addressing s22 regarding s22 and the general topic of suicide the federation is unequivocal suicide is a tragedy which has touched just about everyone the federation all of its members and most likely everyone here today deeply values human life too many of us know the boundless sorrow the results when somebody takes their own life I personally understand the profound sense of loss in the wake of suicide lost a beloved uncle and lost a very dear close friend to suicide and both chose to ensure that their lives were ended by using a firearm the death of my friend was especially reflective to me it is the federation's understanding that the primary impetus of the consideration of bills that will enact a waiting period of the purchase of a firearm is to address suicide and we believe it is an honest attempt at similar tragedies in the future we therefore fully understand and appreciate the intent it is in effect an effort to save someone from themselves we understand the role that firearms can play in suicide and even though firearms are only used in approximately one percent of suicide attempts we understand that when a firearm is used it is usually lethal our understanding of the relationship between lethal and jeopardy firearms and suicide is why the federation took the lead along with the gun owners of Vermont in establishing a Vermont version of the New Hampshire gun shop project we became aware of this as a result of obtaining, reading and then embracing a document authored by the Vermont Center of Health and Learning under a grant supplied by the Vermont Department of Mental Health entitled reducing suicide risk in taking on that lead role the federation worked hard to develop handouts, posters and related materials and we then made that material available to our clubs and FFLs we did this completely voluntarily we tackled that project on a complete volunteer basis with the intent of raising awareness by providing what to look for tips on how to approach an individual in jeopardy, tips on questions to ask and other existing resources that sportsmen, sportswomen sporting clubs and FFLs might use to help prevent such tragedies examples are in the packet and while most are logoed by the SPC the federation and gun owners of Vermont created a content when S22 was released we embraced the challenge to see if there was something further we might contribute after reviewing what had been done and what existed we sat down and mapped out the framework for a reporting system that could provide a simple and effective method that had the potential of being far more effective at stopping suicides that are waiting period and we did that by completely focusing on how such a system would work not the reasons why it couldn't work immediately after mapping and you see my document there suicide prevention system immediately after mapping out those systems might look like we ran squarely into a wall of privacy rights we ran into the very real possibility that the creation of a well-intentioned database of people of concern could be misused and even abused and of course we ran into issues of due process should you be interested I have included my write up on the systems we envisioned in my packet while the federation would have concerns over how such a system is implemented I believe the medical community and others would likely step in rather heavily and impose such systems due to the issue of privacy rights despite there being several HIPAA exemptions to reporting people at risk as was outlined by legal counsel earlier this week to specifically address the two components of S22 I will first address the second part same storage as far as this portion is concerned we fully believe that a safe storage scheme was fully addressed by the Supreme Court of the United States in the DC versus Heller decision we believe that this will be impossible to enforce we believe this will negatively impact the ability to defend one's home and we believe that this bill creates bizarre situations where a person is in violation by simply leaving the bedroom in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom we oppose this portion regarding the waiting period portion we offer the following points one right to self-defense versus an attempt to save a life in considering this bill we see a problem and attempt to achieve a balance between an individual's constitutional right of self-defense versus the establishment of a waiting period that might possibly delay a person from committing suicide according to the Vermont Judiciary annual statistical report for 2018 there were 3,380 relief from abuse filings in 2018 which was an increase of 8% from 2017 for those RFA filings which become corridors these cases represent situations where a victim is able to convince a court that they are under a real threat of bodily injury or even death threats from another such a court will issue an order to keep the party separated in these situations a victim has been able to prove they live under some unacceptable level of risk of injury or even death and we believe it likely that some of these victims may well want to take the proven step of obtaining the means of self-defense to preserve their own life even if there is only one victim who wishes to purchase the means to defend themselves is it reasonable, fair and constitutional to subject that victim to any waiting period when any delay might well make the difference between saving their own life or preventing injury how do we balance the rights of a person who wishes to preserve their life versus a person to people who already own firearms in many cases where a person owns a gun and they want to buy a firearm they will typically use the same FFL this is certainly not always the case but generally speaking it is in a situation where an FFL who by the way by federal law has to keep a bound book of all these transactions knows that the purchaser already owns a firearm what purpose is served and what possession number three people plan is the federation's view that the establishment of an arbitrary time limit and I say arbitrary because we have a 48 and a 72 hour floating out there will not work for the simple reason that people plan and we have seen this time and time again whatever the time period imposes this cannot and will not guarantee the person involved will be stopped for the sake of their own life as an aside here I did a quick search of the legislature bills in play looking for mental health what we need is a statewide level of awareness raising for the issue that is suicide we need to raise the level of awareness of people who are in jeopardy where is that bill a person as another consideration I believe there is credence to the thought that when the suicidal person attempts to buy a firearm and is then told that they cannot take immediate possession due to an arbitrary waiting period that delay may well be seen by them as yet another injustice heaped upon them to add to their already perceived misery thereby making them even more resolute for and perhaps most important if I am very embarrassed to do this but I know what happens here is this room gets divided up and we were lucky to get it for 2 hours and there is going to be another group storming in on us as we speak I wonder if you would be able to come back and finish your testimony I would love to explain I hate to do that to you if we were on our own committee room we would finish but I know what will happen here will have people planning some kind of storming in may I have the latitude to resubmit yes you may and we will hear from you first up and then carry and then the people on S-72 when we get back after the town meeting thank you very much senator I perfectly understand I appreciate it I also appreciate your effort to try to find out thank you sir