 Good morning. I think we're still nowhere. We're back to noon. Where's the afternoon now? I use an interspeaker. Let me introduce myself briefly. My name is Maurice Keeson. I am a member of the International Society of International Genealogy. I've helped organize these daily lectures here in the RDS for the last five years. And I run a variety of different surname projects. The Vleason DNA Project, the Parallel DNA Project, the Maloy, the Maloney, the Caldwell. The whole variety of them. So I've been very, very heavily steeped in YDNA for the last couple of years. And what I'm going to talk to you about today is what do your YDNA results actually mean? Now, how many people here have actually done a YDNA test? So quite a few. About 30 people there in the audience have done a YDNA test. And you'll probably know that YDNA is only inherited from father to son. So it's along the father, father, father line. I will have inherited it from my father, he from his father, he from his father, and so on. So that Y chromosome is only passed down to us from our father. And only men get that Y chromosome. Women do not get the Y chromosome. They get the X chromosome instead. So only men get the Y chromosome. And of course it determines our gender. It makes us men. So it's very, very useful because the path of the Y chromosome, the father, father, father line, also follows the same path as the surname. So it's actually very, very useful for surname research. And that's why a lot of the projects that you find on family tree DNA are YDNA surname projects. The other good thing about YDNA is it can help us connect with close cousins on our father, father, father line. So you've got a father, father going up on one side, a father, father, father going up on the other side. And it meets at a common ancestor sometime back in the past. And the other thing that YDNA informs us about is our deep ancestry. Where we migrated from once we came out of Africa, moved into Europe, and then spread across the rest of the world. So those are the three things that you can get from a YDNA test. And these are your YDNA results. This is the YDNA results page. And it has the account information here. You can look at your order history on this one here. There's my name up at the top. It has my haplogroup here and a variety of different tabs that you can click on and get some further information. And to start off with, well, there's also a list of projects. So you can join any number of projects that you want to. And you can see that I have joined about 20 different projects with my YDNA results. You don't have to limit yourself to one or two projects. You can actually join as many as you want to. But if you actually click on the tab that says YSTR results, then this is what you get. You get panel one, panel two, panel three, the name of the marker here at the top, and then the value for that marker underneath. But what does that actually mean? And to understand the answers to that question, we really have to take a closer look at the Y chromosome itself. And the Y chromosome, like every chromosome, is composed of a short arm and a long arm. And there's a little nip there in the middle. And all along the length of the chromosome, we have these genes. And of course the Y chromosome is going to have genes that are typical of men, such as the inability to see or hear the obvious. The gosh-won gene, ability to remember and tell jokes. One of my favourites is the DC-10, the ability to identify aircraft. And another one down here, which I thought is very, very appropriately, oops, gene, the lack of recall for dates, especially your anniversary and your wife's birthday. So these are the typical genes that you're going to get on the Y chromosome tongue-in-cheek, of course. But it illustrates the point that along the length of our chromosomes, we have these genes that code for characteristics that make you, you. Whether you've got blue eyes or brown hair, whether you're tall or short, whether you have a preponderance of certain, you might have a propensity for certain diseases. That's all coded for by these genes that are dotted along the length of your chromosomes. But also along the length of the chromosomes, you'll get a variety of different DNA markers that are useful from the point of view of ancestry. And those are the ones that we really want to look at when we're looking at either Y DNA for connecting us with same surname cousins, or autosomal DNA, which is all the other chromosomes for connecting us with cousins on any of our ancestral lines. Now, if we take this Y chromosome and we unravel it, then as it unravels, you begin to see this double helix structure that was made famous by Watson and Crick back in 1953 when they discovered the structure of DNA. And if you unwind that even further, you're ending up with two strands of DNA that make up this double helix. And along each strand, you have a series of letters. And these letters are the basis of the nucleotide basis GC, A and T. Glaming, cytosine, adenine, and pining. But we just go by the first letter, GC, A, T. The G and the C always bind with each other. They always bind with each other. Remember it by looking at the curved letters bind with another curved letter. You never get a curved letter binding with a straight edge letter. And then the A and the T, they always bind with each other. It might be a T or TA. It can bind either way. And if you actually look at this strand here, it will be a mirror image of the strand above it. And out of this, we get two types of DNA marker. The first one is the STR marker, also called the short tandem repeat. And the key word here is repeat. Because if you look at those letters, TAC, TAC, TAC, those letters are repeated three times. So the value for this particular marker would be three. Because that sequence of letters is repeated three times. And that's what the number means when you get your YDNA results. It's the number of times a certain sequence of letters is repeated. Now the other type of DNA marker is called a SNP, our single nucleotide polymorphism. And the key word here is substitution. Whereas with the STRs, you're looking at a sequence of letters with a SNP. You're just looking at one. And that one letter might have been a T in the previous generation. But a mistake happens, a mutation happens, and that T is replaced by an A, or it's replaced by a G, or it's replaced by a C. And then that new letter will be passed on to subsequent generations thereafter. So a SNP is simply just a substitution of a single letter. So those are the two types of DNA marker. And of course, arising out of that, we have two different types of DNA tests. You can have STR marker tests, and you can test 37 markers, 67 markers, or 111 markers, or you can have SNP tests. And SNP marker tests can either be a single SNP test, so you can just test a single marker, or it can be a SNP pack, which is about 100, 120, 140 of these markers in a pack. And you can use that pack to test about 120 of them. And then the creme de la creme, the big Y test, tests in excess of 50,000 SNP markers. So it's a huge order of magnitude greater than the SNP packs or the single SNP tests. And that is an expensive test. That is normally about $575. It goes down to $395 in the sale. But it will give you a huge amount of information about the DNA markers on your Y chromosome. So the two types of DNA marker and now the two types of DNA test as a result. But of course, these markers undergo these mutations from time to time. So I talked about how a SNP might have been an A one generation, but then as that parent, as that father, is making a copy of his DNA and passing it on to the son, a mistake gets made in the copying process. So for example, here we have early man in East Africa finger on the photocopier. He has six sons and you might notice a strange anomaly arising in son number four. There's been a mistake in the copying process and he ends up with a big blue nose. Son number five, there's another mistake in the copying process and he's called tiny by his brothers. So and it's these mutations that occur during the copying process when the parent is producing the sperm cell that contains all the half of the chromosomes that get passed on, including the Y chromosome. That's where these mutations arise. And all the children of son number four are going to have blue nose and all the children of son number five are going to be relatively tiny. So that's how mutations arise and that's how mutations get passed on. And of course, if we look at it in terms of an STR marker, and let's look at the STR marker, DYS, 458. It has a value of 17 and a father, but that maybe increases to a value of 18 in the son and in son number five it might decrease to a value of 16. So that's how the numbers on the STR markers can go up and down. And here's a very interesting slide that gives you the name of a couple of these STR markers, the type of repeats that they have, and then the kind of motif or letters that you see for each of these markers and then the average number of repeats. Let's look at this 458, DYS 458. This type of repeat is tetra, meaning four, and it's G-A-A-A. I tried to pick one that's kind of Irish sounding. So the G-A-A-A is this particular STR marker here and it's repeated n number of times, n being on average about 17. So you're going to get 17 versions of G-A-A-A, G-A-A-A, G-A-A-A with this particular marker. Now, of course, 17 is the average and around the average you're going to get a range. Let's look at the range. There's the average near 17 and you can see 32% of people in the population actually have a value of 17 for this marker, but 24% of a value of 16, 17% of a value of 15, 15% of a value of 18, and so on and it gets less and less as you go out on either side of the range. But it's just to make the point that some people will be 17, some people will be 18, some people will be 16, and some very rare people, 0.003% will be 23 and some very, very rare people will be 10. So in the general population, you get a range of values around the average that you see. And that really explains what you're seeing when you look at these F-C-O results and looking at these numbers associated with each marker. Now, the other thing that I want to talk about when you look at your results is this box here and it says here in the Y-E-N-A hamplow group and it's M269. So what is a hamplow group? What does that actually mean? Well, it says your predicted hamplow group is M269 and it's on the hamplow tree. These are two terms, a hamplow group means roughly a group of people that share basically the same genetic signature. So as early man left Africa and let's say each of these six sons went in different directions, one son and his descendants went to Asia, another son and his descendants went to Australia, those with the blue nose brigade, another son and his descendants went to Europe and tiny and his descendants went off to the Americas. So you can see that as mutations develop and people spread out across the globe, different hamplow groups emerged, groups of people with slightly different genetic variations and as detectives we can follow these mutations and migrations across the world and together with linguistic data and archaeological data we can actually track human migration out of Africa to all the four corners of the world. And here is an example of the type of migrations that you see. It starts here with genetic Adam in Africa and there is of course some genetic variation occurring in Africa because that's where we stayed for 200,000 years, which means that there's 200 times more genetic diversity within Africa than there is outside of Africa. Somebody from China and myself will have more in common genetically than somebody from North Africa and somebody from South Africa. It's an incredible amount of human diversity to see. But then of course 50,000 years ago the last successful migration out of Africa occurred and now we get human beings going all the way across the planet and settling in different geographical locations, bringing with them their own set of unique mutations that allow them to be characterised as in a certain hamplow group. So for example in Western Europe we're largely hamplow group R1B. But if you went over to China you'd largely be hamplow group O and if you went to the tip of South America you would be hamplow group Q1A3A. And it's just to make the point that as we spread out and populated the planet we developed mutations that now characterised people in different geographical locations. And here's the kind of distribution you get for R1B in Western Europe and you can see that it's really highly concentrated in Western Europe. It's actually particularly concentrated in Ireland. I1 is another hamplow group. It's particularly concentrated around Scandinavia. Is anybody I1? Yeah, a few people are I1. Well, Christina I'm not surprised because you are from Scandinavia. But other people, if you've got an I1 hamplow group it may very well be that you have Viking ancestry on your father, father, fatherland. If you look at the groups in Africa you have A2 and A3, you have Khoisan, I1B1A that is actually Bantu and it's all across Africa. So different hamplow groups concentrated in different geographical locations. And of course as well as that we're able to put these groups on the tree of mankind and build a human evolutionary tree that traces the evolution of humans from genetic atom 250 years ago in Africa up to the present day. And when we first started this a mapping of the evolutionary tree back in 2002 on our particular branch in Western Europe which is branch R and there's a lot of other branches in various parts of the world but on branch R which is a Western European branch we only had 16 subbranches below that. That was in 2002. But this is such a young science that over the course of the years we're discovering new markers and new markers all the time so that in 2017 there are well over a thousand branches on Haplobrubor just this one branch of the human tree that is Western European. And some of those branches is very interesting what's happening. Each branch can be dated so we get an idea of when and when people moved in to a particular geographical location but the other thing that we're learning is that whereas this human migration kind of starts with an atom at the very top and moves down whereas as genealogists what do we do? We start with ourselves and we move up. What is happening now is this upstream down approach is actually beginning to meet this downstream up approach and certainly with my Gleason family tree I brought the human evolutionary tree right down into the Gleason Surning and I've actually been able to look at the evolution of the Surning within the last 1,000 years. So we've come from 250,000 years ago in Africa down to the last 1,000 years of your Surning and that's absolutely incredible. The other fascinating thing that's happening and this will be very important and one of the important implications for looking at the ancient animals whether they're Scottish or Irish is the fact that certain DNA markers downstream DNA markers are associated with certain surnames and what we're finding is that a lot of those surnames are actually tying us in to the ancient animals the ancient genealogies to deal with the orinates or the O'Neill's and we're actually beginning at a stage now where we are beginning to prove that a lot of the Irish animals are actually correct and the ancient genealogies are correct. So that is ongoing work and I'll give you some examples of that later on. So that really explains what your haplogroup is all about. It places you perhaps in a particular geographical area, number one but it also places you on the tree of mankind. So we're talking about why DNA in this lecture of course you can do the same thing with mitochondrial DNA and place yourself on the tree of woman kind and look at the human evolutionary tree from that direct female line perspective. Now another thing, so just to summarize the story so far the two types of DNA marker you have the STR marker and the SNP marker and the tests available for those two populations giving rise to haplogroup haplogroup tree and the human migration pathways. Next we're going to look at DNA matches and these would be genetic cousins with whom you share an ancestor probably some time in the last 1,000 years which is a little bit further back than most of us have gone with our own genealogies but I'll tell you another story about that tomorrow if you come to my next lecture and to look at your DNA matches you click on this particular tab here and this is the type of results that you get now this is at the 67 marker level I just read this out because it's not going to be visible in the back. I have 8 matches on my 67 marker test and this here is the genetic distance 2, 3, 6, 7, 7, 7 these are the names of the matches and I'll call them out Glisse, Glisse, Glisse Glisse, Glisse, Glisse, Glisse Glisse and Glocom and there's a variety of icons here we'll talk a little bit about them and then the most distant known ancestor for each of these matches and then the actual SNP marker that characterizes as far as they've tested on their SNP testing and sometimes it's very high up in the family tree sometimes it's quite far down it depends whether they've done any additional SNP testing but there's a few things here that I want to draw your attention to the first thing is genetic distance and this is really just a measure of how closely you are related to somebody else so for example a genetic distance of 2 out of 67 means that there is a 2 step difference away from an exact match an exact match would have a genetic distance of 0 so an exact match is 0 genetic distance of 2 to me that suggests there's probably a common ancestor sometime in the last maybe 200 to 300 to 400 years a genetic distance of 7 suggests it's much further back than that because you're much more far away from this person maybe it's a common ancestor in the 1500s or the 1400s so that's the genetic distance the other thing that's really really important is the birth location of your most distant known ancestor your earliest known ancestor and this is an example of it here and you can see that this particular chap here Thomas Stason I've made it a big up here he comes from Boulder Latin in Kilimaquil which is in Tipperary and that's really really useful information especially if you're a member of the Irish diaspora how many people from America here there's about 10 people here from America how many of you have information that says that your ancestor came from Ireland there you go where in Ireland did he come from it's difficult to know but why DNA can actually help pinpoint where that elusive ancestor came from and I'll show you an example of that the thresholds for inclusion on your matches list are as follows because not everybody gets put on your matches list those matches that are relatively close make it to your matches list you know and this is the threshold at the 12 marker level it's 1 at 25 it's up to a genetic distance of 2 at 37 markers it's up to a genetic distance of 4 and at 67 it's up to a genetic distance of 7 and at 111 it's up to a genetic distance of 10 so anything less than 10 they don't make your match list anything greater than 10 they won't so there will be people out there in the database where you're they've just been outside the threshold and they won't actually appear on your matches list that's why when you join a surname project you might be confused by well how come some of these people are on my match list but a lot of these people that I'm grouped with they don't actually appear on my match list at all it's because they fall outside of this threshold so that's the first thing to notice about genetic distance and it's roughly about 10% if you've tested to 37 markers the cutoff is 10% of that which is about 3.7 rounds up to 4 so that's how I remember it roughly about 10% so people who fall outside the threshold do not make it onto your matches list so that explains why I only had the 8 matches at the 67 marker level now I've upgraded my results to 111 markers and at 111 markers I only have two matches one of them is a genetic distance of 6 the other is a genetic distance of 9 one of the very interesting things that you can do and one thing that you want to know as a genealogist is okay if I match this person and the genetic distance is 9 out of 111 how far back is the common ancestor where do we actually connect and here we have a real problem because the answer is not very exact but you can estimate it using the time predictor the time to the most recent common ancestor between you and somebody else if you click on that orange icon this sort of thing comes up you get a comparison chart it does it by every 4 generations I like to click on this click every generation instead so instead of looking at every 4 generations 4, 8, 12, 16 I actually get this kind of result here which shows me what is the likelihood that these two people Mr. Little Mr. Gleason share a common ancestor within the last 1 generation, 2 generation 3 and so on so when you get up to 19 generations there is a 99% chance that we share a common ancestor sometime within the last 19 generations but that is not great for me I want to know when was my great-great-great-grandfather born and I want to have a range of maybe 10 or 20 years on either side of the estimate so what I do is I manipulate this data a little bit on the midpoint estimate or whatever is closest to it and there is 45, that is 57 I am going to look at the midpoint 50% mark and that is about 8 generations now if you allow 30 years per generation that is about 240 years ago from my date of birth assuming that I am around about 60 I am kind of going over I am much younger than that but assuming that I was about 60 I am about 300 years from the present day that would take me back to about 1717 round it down to about 1700 we come to the conclusion that the common ancestor was born around about 1700 but of course around every estimate there is a range and here is the problem with the range if we look for a 90% range that means taking the 5% level up here which is about 4 generations let's look for the 95 95 that is it there which is about 15 generations it means that the range that we calculate is about 1500 to 1850 now if it was 1850 I would be great because I can look at records I might find something in the records that are still available but if it is 1500 what hope do I have of getting that far back so at the end of all that I can say there is a 90% chance that he was born between 1500 and 1850 and my best guess is somewhere around 1700 but that 1700 plus or minus 150 years and while it is accurate it is not exact enough for my genealogical needs and the problem is that that is always going to be the way we are never going to get anything more accurate than a best guess plus or minus 150 years you know even if you go up to 500 STOR markers it will narrow the range but it is from a genealogical point of view it might bring it down to plus or minus 100 years or plus or minus 50 years which is not great from a genealogical point of view so that is the time predictor it is actually it is like a statistician and this is accurate that genealogists will say sure but it is not exact enough for my needs the other thing that you should be aware of on your results page is the email icon and if you click on the email icon you can actually contact your match directly by email you can compare your family trees you can collaborate with each other and hopefully you can break through brick walls in your family tree and that is something that I have been able to do through mine on my Gleason line I have not been able to do that yet even though I do match a lot of people in the Gleason group but it is possible to actually make a connection with somebody who holds the answer to breaking through your brick wall now the other thing that matches the next thing I want to turn to is projects and there are a variety of different projects available there are certain projects haplogroup projects geographic projects and special projects and there is around about 9,700 surname projects of family tree DNA and family tree DNA are the only company that is supplying wide DNA testing that is suitable for doing surname research so if you do want to do surname research and it does not just have to be your surname it could be any surname in your family tree you need to go to family tree DNA now if you want to research a surname that is in the middle of your family tree you are going to have to find a cousin that actually has that surname and get him tested as your proxy but it is possible to search and research any surname within your family tree the thing that we do in surname projects is we group close genetic matches together and we analyze the resulting groups so to start off with this gives you an overview of what actually happens this is the Gleason DNA project the main point I want to make about this is aren't the colors pretty and the reason why I am talking directly and towards the pretty colors is because they make a pattern and this pattern is the genetic signature of this particular group so we have several groups in the Gleason project the first group has a very distinctive pattern the second group down here has another distinctive pattern that is different from those in group one by showing group three as well they have got another very distinctive genetic pattern compared to the other two groups so we are grouping people together on the basis that they broadly share the same genetic signature and then when you look at the pedigrees of the people who have joined the project and the most dist of non-accesses everybody in lineage two in group two goes back to North Tipperary everybody in group three goes back to West Clare everybody in group one goes back to Suffolk in England but not only that they go back to the same named individuals this is Thomas Gleason born in 1609 so if you are diaspora, Irish or if you are Irish-American or you think you are Irish-American or you think you are Gleason you have got your name as Gleason if you did the DNA test if you matched people in group two that is telling you your family came from North Tipperary that is where you focus your research so the DNA points you to a particular area where you can focus your research and that is really helpful if all you knew before was that your ancestor came from Ireland if you matched group three research in West Clare if you matched group one you are not Irish, you are English Jackie Gleason belonged to that group the Honeymooners, Cherokee Justice, Smoky the Bandit Jackie Gleason belongs to group one he used to hang around Irish bars in the Bronx all the time and he didn't tell anybody that he was English so it is interesting that what it can tell you another chap who was convinced he was English joined the project did the test he matches everybody in North Tipperary he changed his password to kiss me I am Irish so it can be life changing when you get these results back now we do have another group up here again it is a US group and they have got NPEs and we talked about NPEs in a while and then there is another group here on group people so it hasn't been possible to group them because they don't match the other groups in the project so this raises several questions but it also allows us to draw certain conclusions about the power of YDNA first of all it can help group people together into similar genetic groups those genetic groups can actually help identify a person's origin and can also help identify a person's ancestry now three questions why are some people on group NPE and why is it relevant and how are people grouped together so why are some people on group well it could be because of NPE a surname or DNA switch such as adoption or illegitimacy or it could be that they are from a rare branch of the family a rare branch there is not many surviving members left and only one person from that branch has tested so far and that person will be sitting in the on group section until somebody else from this rare branch of the family actually tests so if you are in an on group part of the CERNM project it's a waiting game in the hope that somebody else will come along who also belongs to the same rare branch of your family that you do do you have an NPE on your father's father's father's line NPE, non-paternal event CERNM or DNA switch a break in transmission now in Ireland a lot of people will remember the test card where you'd be in the middle of your favorite program with Dallas and JOR was just about to get shot and then this would come up and go we're terribly sorry for the break in transmission normal services will be resumed as soon as possible well it's similar with adoptions, illegitimacies infidelities within marriage there is a break in transmission of the DNA normal services will not be resumed but it will cause consequences down the line and I refer to these as CERNM or DNA switches because that's what they are and so for example say the father obscons and the children out of respect of the mother take on the mother's name rather than the father that ran away and abandoned into the family that mother's name will now be associated with the father's Y DNA but the CERNM will pass down with a different Y DNA and that's how you can get a switch that causes a disconnect between the Y DNA and the CERNM and examples of that would be people taking their mother's name but also people swearing allegiance to look to the Lord of the plan another example is when you get something that my dad refers to as the interloper and the interloper might be the postman who always ran his twice and he might be he might be invading the family when the husband is away at work and that interloper DNA comes in but it gets associated with the CERNM of the husband so this is where you get a DNA switch and that DNA is passed down with the original CERNM through generations of further descendants and again as a disconnect between the Y DNA and the CERNM you get it with adoption, you get it with infidelity so these are also called non-paternity events or non-paternal events are not the parents expected and there are many different causes I may mention to allegiance to the Lord of the Tour and in ancient Ireland back before the 1600s this would have been quite a common thing to do that you would show allegiance to the dominant family in the neighborhood by adopting that family's name so then you might become O'Brien by DNA O'Brien by name but leased by DNA and this would have been done with servants, with vassals soldiers, tenants and slaves adoption, fostering and guardianship very very big in ancient Celtic society a young widow remarries her youngest children are 6 months old 1 year old, 2 years old what did the children do? they adopt the CERNM of the new husband that's another way that you can get this switch between the CERNM between the CERNM sometimes it's the legal condition of marriage or inheritance you will not marry my daughter unless you change your name so that our name gets carried down through generations taking a wife's name upon marriage Oliver Cromwell was never Oliver Cromwell he was Oliver Williams but his wife was descended from Thomas Cromwell who was one of the major assistants of Henry VIII so she had higher social status and that's why he took her name now there are two very interesting customs that were present in Gaelic Ireland that I still have not got my head around one was customary coupling with powerful people the O'Brien is coming down to dinner on Saturday I've got to leave you with him for an hour or so and good luck with that and associated with that was a habit or a custom of naming the child on the wife's death bed and I believe Charles O'Brien was one of these named children where the wife would call the husband in and say darling I'm off now I just needed to say a few things to you you know our oldest child which of course I do that's what I wanted to talk to you about so it was very very strange custom that they had back then and I still haven't got my head around it infidelity was not the way we think about it under Brehame Law and illegitimacy as well totally different concept under Brehame Law but all of these things can mean that you get a surname or DNA switch and there's lots of different causes and how frequently do they occur about 1 to 2% every single generation how many generations since your surname came into being about 30 about 900 to 1000 years so that's 30 generations 1 to 2% per generation that's 30 to 60% chance that your surname does not go back to the person who originated it 900 or 1000 years ago and you can round that up to about 50 so we all of us have a 50-50 chance that our surname does not go back to the person that originated it so how are people grouped together this is the second question that arises from from these surname projects and there's a variety of different markers of potential relatedness that we use genetic distance well the same surname it's people of the same surname it's like oh you have the same maybe you're related to each other that's the first marker of potential relatedness we'll also be looking at genetic distance 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 we'll also be looking at rare marker values you saw that some of those STO values were only shared by 0.003% of the population the same surname and the same rare marker value they're probably related marker of potential relatedness and then of course sniff testing and sniff predictions are very very important as well so those are the kind of markers that we use to group people together however there is a spanner in the works there is a fly in the ointment because when you're dealing with just STO markers and that's the standard test that we all do when we first start off there's a problem with something called converges and the best way of visualizing this is that two branches of the tree of mankind evolved independently and they've got a common ancestor back here 2,000 years ago but just by chance some of the members of one approximate all the values of the other branch of that particular tree and it means that it looks like two distantly related individuals are much more closely related than they actually are and it means that you will start contacting this person saying oh it looks like we've got an ancestor 100 years ago when in actual fact it's 1,000 or 2,000 years back and the only way that you can get around that is by doing sniff testing so to summarize grouping then the markers of potential relatedness help us group people together who are likely to be related within the last 1,000 years or so the decision to group depends on the totality of the evidence and if any of you want to become certain project administrators it is your accumulating experience as an administrator that will help you in this regard so converges is a major problem in some groups but not in others so for example does anybody here have the marker of 9 of the 9 hostages M222 Jim, yes we have a few people converges is going to be a real problem in your particular group is anybody here L226 the marker of O'Brien so you're going to have a lot of problems in your particular groups as well and really the only way that you can sort them out the wheat from the chap is to do sniff testing and see if the sniff places you on one branch or the other so once grouped you can analyze your results and I presented to the Malloy plan on their DNA results back in August in Tullivore and here are the results of the Malloy plan we have various groups Group 1 is from Ireland Group 2 is from Ireland Group 3 is from Ireland Group 4 is probably awfully, probably Group 5 is Scots Irish and Group 6 is Ireland the interesting thing Group 3, Group 3, Group 4 and Group 6 are all M222 and it turned out later that a lot of people in Group 4 should not be there at all their sniff testing showed that they should be completely out of that group and further sniff testing in Group 6 who on the base of the best ER markers were very distantly related were not related to Group 4 at all they turned out to be related to Group 4 because they have the same sniff marker so convergence could be a really big problem there's another thing here that these are not all of the boys there's a Dempsey, Dempsey, Callahan McGovern I think, you know, McSparham, Purcell and McNillan so why are there different surnames in this group and it could be because you're looking at people who are there was an adoption along their lines or there might be pre-surname relatives and people that they're related to more than a thousand years ago highly unlikely convergence is a major problem from most of those people who have a different surname to the rest of the group so what kind of questions could you ask about these groups you could ask how old is the group where is the group from is there any evidence of a surname or DNA switch any evidence of chance matches where do they sit on the tree of mankind with a branch in structure within the group so let's look at one of these groups group number five and see what we can tell so here's group number five there's about seven members in that group these are their DNA results you can see that there are some mutations there there's a mutation there's some mutations there but apart from that they actually look like they're fairly close matches to each other they're getting like Sparrow, Malloy, Purcell like Sparrow, Malloy Purcell, Macmillan, Malloy I mean there's some Malloy's there but the majority of that group aren't Malloy's at all so where are they from well if you look at their country of origin Northern Ireland, Scotland Northern Ireland, Scotland, Scotland so they're probably Scots Irish just based on what they've self reported how long have they carried the name well the oldest pedigree here goes back to 1680 but nobody in this group shares a common ancestor that they triangulate on there's no two people that share the same common ancestor so 1680 it doesn't really mean anything if you do the tip report on the two most distantly related people you get an estimate a midpoint estimate again that they're related about 12 generations ago which translates into about 1600 plus or minus 150 years any evidence of a surname or DNA switch well actually you've got Macmillan, Purcell, Mac Sparrow they're not all Malloy's there are different surnames there some kind of a switch has happened where do they sit on the tree of Mankind well a lot of them have tested their terminal snip and it's BY 2156 for four of these members so that helps you place them on the tree of Mankind specifically on this part of the tree here so here they are, this is our group 5 this is where they sit on the big tree which is one of the haplogroup trees that you can use and that's the various snips the various branches all the way down to their present one BY 12596 I also use the haplogroup projects and I encourage all the members to join the haplogroup projects so that we can get further surnames which may actually have this particular association and on that basis we got Mac Sparrow, Purcell Purcell, Mac Millan and Malloy so nothing more than what we already knew but it's always useful looking at the haplogroup projects to try and troll more close matches then when we started looking at surname and distribution maps the Purcells were kind of southern Irish and the Mac Millans were kind of northern Irish tantalizingly close to Scotland now this was using John Brennan's excellent surname distribution maps but a great one comparing Ireland and Britain is fourbearers.co.uk and when you look at fourbearers this is the Purcell distribution this is the Mac Millan distribution and look at that Scots-Irish association there this is the Mac Sparrow this is the Mac Sparrow and again almost exclusively Scots-Irish this is the Mac Sparrow again Scots-Irish this is the Mac Sporan again largely in Scotland and when we look at Malloy it's kind of ubiquitous in Ireland and spread around England and Scotland we changed Malloy to Malloy now we're beginning to get a Scots-Irish distribution and if we change it from Malloy to Malloy again we're getting a very very strong Scottish distribution so on the basis of that we can conclude that there is a strong suggestion of a Scots-Irish connection and if you go into the pedigrees there and ask people well what is the history of your particular genealogy where we end up with the Sparrow and we start looking at the Sparrow which of course is the Scottish version of the Purse and some of the families actually have documented evidence that there are Mac Sparrow they have some children that were born Mac Sparrow and then the later children of the family were born as Purcells so Purcell is actually an anglicisation of Mac Sparrow and the Mac Sparrow and the Purcells spring from the same genetic source Mac Millan is a very interesting one this chap is African American he lives in North Carolina and the probably what happened was the slave owner or the plantation owner actually passed or somebody on that plantation passed that surname down to this particular individual's slave ancestors and it came down to this particular individual today so that's that is another type of surname DNA switch now obviously the Y DNA of this particular individual goes back to a European man so this could very well be an example of the sexual exploitation of black women by white men in America during the period of slavery where the Malloy comes in is still open to questions that they know is it a surname distribution switch is there an adoption there and an illegitimacy it's certainly come in the same close to Irish area but we don't actually know why the Malloy is sitting there with the Mac Sparrow so those are the kind of questions that you could ask how old is the group you can look at pedigrees the tip tool which is very very good for the upper parts of the human evolutionary tree the SAP program is a new automated tool that people will be using that will be talked about during the course of the weekend by Dave Vance who invented the tool and is doing a presentation where is the group from the birth location of the most distant known ancestor is essential for this type of analysis essential old world pedigrees absolutely essential you can also look at nearest neighbour analysis and see who you match and then use those surname distribution maps to see where they might have come from but the totality of the evidence will point you in a particular direction you're never going to be 100% sure unless you dig up an ancestor from that location and test them yourself is there any evidence of a surname or DNA switch if there is for the question of which came first the max foreign chicken or the beloy egg we don't actually know and it's very very difficult to know until you do a lot more testing of people and seeing which surname looks the youngest that's probably the surname or DNA switch and lastly where do they sit is there any evidence of chance matches if there is if there is convergence then the big Y is the only way to sort that problem out so I'm going to end there that is a brief analysis of what your Y DNA results mean I think we have time for one or two questions so thanks very much for your attention now could I ask Gerard to take the microphone and go around the room if there are any specific questions anybody got any questions we have time for one or two there's a lady over here a gentleman over here I have a brief comment to make on the list of items you gave in relation to explaining the discrepancies between DNA and the surname there's one major item which I think is generally neglected and that is that we tend to look like an intergarden to the men, to Christian men and through the structure of marriage as we know it today if you look back to intergarden about the 14th century there was clearly groups of marriage access to multiple partners for the propagation of many, many warriors because the chiefs of warriors depend on and have strong military structures and they understood the warriors to get warriors so the chiefs had privileged access and they are proud to be the warriors of privileged access and so in that way we actually have had a propagation of particular deteriorating markers and that's a major cause of the discrepancies that we find today right after, not beyond the 14th century Sure, absolutely just to get you to hear that there's a question over here as well there warriors had access to large groups of women that they could propagate with and that's how the wide DNA of a particular man might have been propagated because warriors read warriors and examples of that might be Genghis Khan and the fact that his DNA was spread so widely in Mongolia and of course our own Nile of the Nile hostages his, either himself and his clan, a lot of them would have propagated to make the clan strong Another question A good question Two people who know no relationship, the same surname Mary, how will that DNA reflective of children? Well, from the wide DNA point of view it's only going to be coming down from the man but if two people get married they have the same surname if they are related to each other then you're going to have perhaps a double connection so for example whereas we might have 8 great grandparents and 16 great great and 32 they might only have 28 great great great grandparents instead of 32 so you will get that double connection and it means that there will be more DNA in that particular family and it causes problems when you start matching with people on both sides It wouldn't show up in the FTV and family DNA in the FTV and family DNA in the FTV and family DNA it can do and if you go to get match and push your DNA up on get match you can do what's called a runs of homozygosity and that can actually tell you whether there's a likelihood that your parents were related to each other great we have to call it a day there I'm afraid because we have the next week coming in so thank you very much for your kind attention I'll answer your question personally thank you