 This episode is kept to go. You gotta deliver the goods. So the goods right now that I'm holding you accountable to is those IQ scores. And you say you got them. And if you got them, you gotta show them. You keep your research for 10 years. And after 10 years, you can throw away those boxes. So I've thrown a number of them away, of course, because I've been doing this for 44 years. I've only got one box left now. So that there's just simply no way I can go back. It just doesn't ring true. I just straight up. It doesn't ring true to me. Welcome to Skepticoe where we explore controversial science and spirituality. Today we welcome near death experience for your and author PMH at water. Her latest book is the forever angels near death experiences in childhood and their life long impact. A book that none other than Bruce Grayson calls unprecedented. Kenneth ring calls truly groundbreaking. And Penn von Lommel says is a very important valuable contribution. Now, if you know anything about near death experience science, that is the real study of the phenomenon. You know that all the folks I just mentioned are very prominent researchers with distinguished credentials. So their endorsement of this book and it is quite significant. PMH welcome. It's great to have you here. Good to be here. Very good. So PMH you're known as a real trailblazer innovator within the near death experience community, particularly because you have always maintained this focus on after effects. And that's been your thing and you've brought forth some really important insights and change the directions research in this latest book, the forever angels. You took it in a slightly different term. You looked at lifelong after effects among 120 people who had experienced an NDE very early in life. Why did you would choose that particular protocol? Well, bear in mind this is 397 people. So I'm looking at my previous research of those that were maybe, you know, kids up to maybe 20s and 30s. And then I'm now extending it to people in their 70s and 80s. And I'm saying to them did having a near death experience as a child make any difference in your life? And more or less an essay kind of thing, I suppose. But I was asking them to tell me about it. And I'll tell you some of the replies were so tear stained. I could hardly read them. Well, one man sent me a book. I mean, literally a book including pictures of his family. And all of the things that he was now retired and looking back. And you know, Bruce Grayson said nobody's ever done this. Nobody's ever thought of doing this. You know, looking at kids as kids from birth at the age of five, especially, and then, you know, a little bit older. And then, you know, looking at the near death experience had a lot of experience with adult experiencers, teenagers and adults. And, you know, you know, my research base is nearly 5000 adults and children. And so, you know, I've been pursuing this kind of subject for a long time and looking at it deeper and deeper and deeper. So this time I wanted to compare what the younger ones are saying with what the grandmas and grandpas are saying, looking back. And it's really interesting with these older people, really anywhere from about 50 to 80, they had to be able to establish that they had had a near death experience at, you know, when they were kids. And this one woman who's 82, she had a sister about 10 years younger. And I talked with a sister and she said everything she's telling you is absolutely true, I can validate it. So I got validations with all these stories. And one of the things I've learned as a near death researcher, I do not want to stay in the same place. You know, most of your scientific researchers will pick a particular hospital or a particular group of people and they'll stick there. You know, all of their research is very, very good research, but it's, you know, it's within that particular arena. No, I want to get out there and see as many people as I can in as many parts of our world as I can. And I do indeed in this book and different classifications of, you know, echo and echo economics. And this one woman wrote me back and she said, you know, near death researchers never contact people like me. Never. I'm poor. I don't have hardly any money, but I want to participate. And do you know she saved her pennies until she could pay enough for a folder to send me, you know, what she had to say, what she had to offer. And I almost cried. I mean, it was just fantastic. And she felt so held to be able to participate. And, you know, people in Ecuador had a lot of people in Ecuador. I don't know how they found out about me, but they did. I had three people who were raised in religions. These are the Voodoo people. Yeah, Voodoo. There's some of them. And they did not know each other. They never spoke to each other. Different parts of the Southern world. And in each other three near death experiences, they were met by Jesus and they knew his name. They didn't know the Bible. They didn't know the name of the Bible. They didn't know words for Bible. They didn't know words for Christianity, but they knew Jesus. Now I can't explain that. That's an anomaly, obviously. But what do you do with that? Well, I reported it. Let me play off of that for a second because let me pull up a page from the book. Can we see that? Oh, okay. Okay. So, you know, you're out there collecting these stories. You mentioned that other near death experience research has done different ways. Some stick very close to in hospital. Others have seen the need like you have to go for accounts. But invariably what we're coming back to is what we can get, what we can verify. And you claim to have some verifiable information on these people. And one of the things that immediately caught my attention was IQ score, which is very interesting because I mean IQ score is really kind of, I mean, where did you get IQ scores on all these people? The parents. How? I have four kids. I have four kids. They're all grown. I don't have IQ scores. They don't do IQ scores in schools anymore. There's no such thing. They did it. What's that? They? All of them did. In Ecuador, they did. And the Voodoo people did. And sometimes these children, as they grew older, they knew their scores. So I just ask them. I didn't have any problems with those figures. You know, these figures in and of themselves are... Well, there are statistical anomaly that, you know, you would just want to really investigate. You say that 50% of them had 150 to 160 IQ score. You know, the odds of 150 IQ score is like 1 in 500. 48%. Not 50. 48%. 8%. Well, if we're going to be precise, it's about... It's 4 in 150 to 160. Okay, 48%. But it's 1 in 500 people have that. And then you say IQ score begins at 180 for this other group. No, there was. And look at the kids that had it. You've got to verify this. You've got to... 180 is 1 out of 10,000. So how many people do you have that scored... How many people do you have that scored 180 on their IQ test? And where is... Where can we find that data? Where can we... That's a very precise number. Did you publish the IQ score numbers and where you got them and how they match to, you know, even if you kind of hide the identity... I... I... I scored the percentages I found. You scored what percentages? Well, the subgroup. All the... How many are in that subgroup? How many people were 1 out of 10,000 in their IQ score? I don't understand what you're saying to me. Well, you... Here's what you say right out of the book. There's a subgroup. You say there's a subgroup. Yeah, those are 6. Right. How many people are in that subgroup? I can't tell you off the top of my head. I'd have to go in my research to tell you that. Okay. Well, I can... I can wait because it's 80% of them. I'm sorry. 8 let's be precise. 81% of them were in this... Yeah. So approximately how many people? This is an astronomically high number. That's what I've published. If you can verify it, which I can't imagine why you wouldn't want to... Well, I did it to people and their parents. You... Again, it just doesn't... That's the only way I have a verifying this is to talk to the parents. And so I'm just saying, you know, like when Trump... A few years ago, he kind of criticized somebody for saying their IQ score. And everyone in the media got on him and they said, this is outdated. There's no such thing as an IQ score. You can get an IQ score, but you don't get it normally. Like in going to school, like I say, my kids don't have an IQ score. None of the people I know have an IQ score. They get tested like crazy kids do in school, but not this IQ score. So it just struck me as very unusual. And if you do have an IQ score... I'm not unusual for people of those ages. I don't think that's true either. I don't have an IQ. I don't know my IQ score. I don't know anyone my age who knows their IQ score. It's no mine, but I've long since forgotten it. I mean, it was just part of school. You knew. Okay. How does a researcher who claims this, what do you think is appropriate for me? Because I'm pushing on you pretty hard here. What is the appropriate level of pushback I should do in terms of you saying you have an extraordinary data claim here that you have a significant number of people? I mean, you have 20 people that had an IQ score of 180, which is one out of 10,000. You have 20 people in your group that... I had very few in that group. Still, even if you say you have 48% of genius level, one out of 500, given the stories of these people. What do you think is your reasonable obligation to back that up, to verify that, to show that you really do have scores? Did you publish any of the scores? Did you publish the actual data? No, of course not. You don't have to tie to the individuals. I wrote the book for the general public. You're not going to have those kind of scores in a book for the general public. Why not? They're not going to read it. Well, then publish it elsewhere so that people who follow this research can feel confident that these extraordinary claims are backed up with data. You have all the case studies in there. You give the names and case number. Maybe you gave a fictitious name, but you have them all in there. Yeah. Do you have IQ scores on every one of them? No, not on every one of them. Most of them. What percent do you have IQ scores on? I couldn't give you that because I don't know. Because you're making claims. 48% were 150 to 160. So even that... Sir, I did all of this a number of years ago. I don't right now remember all those details. I'd have to go back to the boxes that are stored in my storage room and pull it all out and go through each one and read them. I don't have a photographic memory. So I'm not able to pull out of my mind right now all of the answers. What I'm showing you is what I found with those that I worked with. It gives you then an idea if you want. It gives you then a trend or it gives you then... It gives you what I found in dealing with these kids because you have a child between birth and the age of five who has a near-death experience. Most of them, not all of them, most of them come back unusually intelligent. Okay, where is that coming from? We don't know. Nobody knows. Look, one-third of them could remember life in the womb. Most of them could remember birth and continue all about, you know, the delivery room. This is pushing on things like abortion and all this other stuff. And I'm inviting people to look again at all these subjects that we think we know all about and that we think we can prove one way or another scientifically or not. And we're not looking at, well, what... at the lives of these people and how they live and what they deal with. We're not looking at from birth to the age of five and then they're now much older. What was that like for them? And it was not pleasant for most of them or for many of them. If you read through that book, you can see. I read the whole book and, you know, yesterday we were scheduled to do this. It's funny how things turn out. Yesterday we were scheduled to do this interview. We couldn't get through. I have a hard time. I do a lot of these interviews, PMH. I do a lot of these interviews. I've been interviewed a lot. The circumstances surrounding the delay in this just... it just ringed a bell in my head. It just didn't ring authentic. And the whole thing changed and it started going through my mind. And the first thing that popped up is IQ score. That just jumps out at me. Why is somebody talking about IQ score across the board? That they interviewed these people around the world and they all had their IQ scores. And I have... I just said 50%. Are you correcting me? 48%. Show the data. If you have that data, you have an extraordinarily powerful result and you should be kind of catapulted to the front for some kind of prize or something like that. But if you don't have the data, if you can't dig through the boxes, if you can't show not me, but if you publish other people IQ scores and say, here are the cases that I've laid out in this book and here are the IQ scores associated with those people. And if you don't have some people come through and backing that up, well, then that's the kind of scrutiny. I think you have to stand... you have to stand up against if you're going to claim to be a near-death experience researcher. So do you have that? Are you willing to go that extra mile to prove what you're claiming here? Because I have it in black and white, what you're claiming. You're saying that nearly all of these people in this... nearly all in this group scored 180, which is one out of 10,000. There weren't that many. Show us. Show us who scored 180. Pay it to... You have all the people listed in your book. You have extensive clips from what they provided you. You have all the names and the case numbers. Show us. Right? You would want to show us. You're a researcher. You're not an author. You're a researcher. Show us. Will you do that? Will you... you know, you can come back on. You can show me the data and you can come back on. And we can... It would take hours and hours and hours. It's worth it. It's worth it because your claims are quite extraordinary and they deserve to be backed up by that kind of data. And you don't have to have all of them. I mean, you know, we are talking about 120 cases here. It's not like... It's... I'll pay you. I'll pay you to... For your time to go through it. Nobody can pay me to do that. Okay. It would take too... It would take up too much time in my life right now. I understand. Right now I'm dealing with pneumonia. I'm dealing with some significant health issues. And there's no way I'm going to do that. I understand. I'm sorry. But I'm not. There was no reason for me at the time to do that. I've never done that. I've given you my percentages as I found them. But I've never gone back at any time and said where that came from. I've given you the generals, the generalities. Was it black people? Was it white people? Was it Asians? I've given you that. I've given you what part of the world they came from. I've given you that. But I'm not a Bruce Grayson. I don't go back and give you that kind of scientific data because I'm not a scientist. I'm not... I don't do Bruce Grayson's work. Rather, I'm an observer. And to the best of my ability, I give you material. I give you data that is based on what I find. It's based on those numbers. It's not my intention to be a Bruce Grayson. It sounds to me like that's what you want. You want a Bruce Grayson. I'm not. I'm a cop on the beat. I was raised in a police station. I use police investigative techniques as my protocol. I do not use scientific methods and protocols. Consider me a cop on the beat. The difference is when I go up to someone, I never say this, that, or the other. Rather, I say something like, you have something to tell me. I'm here to listen. As much as I can, I get into the people's homes. I talk to them. I talk to their health caregivers whenever I can. I talk to their families whenever I can to give both sides. I don't want to just give one side. I want to get a well-rounded view of what's going on with that individual, especially with that one girl who had 17 near-death experiences by the age of nine. You're not going to be able to get Bruce Grayson kind of material from her and her witchcraft parents. The only reason they breast her is so that they would have a baby to use on Satan's altar. I think that's a very significant account, like I told you yesterday, and I've interviewed several people who've been involved in satanic ritual abuse cases and can back it up. But the important thing, PMH, there just has to be super strict about credibility in this field. And we have to be squeaky clean. And you've got to take the pushback. You've got to take the arrows both from the front and the back. I'm telling you, this is a different interview we're doing today than we would have done yesterday. Because yesterday I had a whole different perspective. And I was up last night, tossing and turning. And first thing this morning, I was looking at IQ scores. I was looking at the history of IQ scores. And I was looking how they don't have... It's an old fashioned thing. They don't do them anymore. There's no way that... I'm not saying there's no way. Maybe you have a way. But if you have that, you've got to back that up. And if you can't back it up, then I don't have any more questions. I'd love to talk about the alien contact, extraterrestrial contact. I think it's a significant question in this whole dear death experience field. I'd love to talk about the satanic ritual abuse connection and the consciousness and evil and how that all plays out. We are in a battlefield here of materialistic science that denies this whole thing. But that's all the more reason to double down on the research. And you've got to show... You've got to deliver the goods. So the goods right now that I'm holding you accountable to is those IQ scores. And you say you've got them. And if you've got them, you've got to show them. And if you can't show them, then we're talking about something else. You know, you keep your research for 10 years. And after 10 years, you can throw away those boxes. So I've thrown a number of them away, of course, because I've been doing this for 44 years. I've only got one box left now. So there's just simply no way I can go back. But I can't. Yeah. Well, there's no way I can go forward. There's no way I can go forward with the interview. I just don't feel comfortable going forward. It just doesn't ring true. I just straight up, it doesn't ring true to me. It's what I sound. It's what I record. Yeah. And it's the best I can offer you. Because it's what I wrote down. It's what I backed up. And I cannot go back to those boxes of material. Because they don't exist. I've been doing this for 44 years. They don't exist now. Well, I'll just say this for people as we kind of wrap it up. The book is extraordinary. I got to believe you do have these accounts. You quote from them extensively in the book. And there's a lot of interesting information there. I was spellbound reading it. So people can pick it up and then, you know. Sorry, I'm not Bruce Grayson. You're not Bruce Grayson. And I'm not, you know, all the nice people that have interviewed. I'm not Bruce Grayson either. Who was very complimentary of your book, as was everyone else. So, hey, you know, everyone has a different opinion. And you're stand up strong and account for yourself, which is awesome. I appreciate you doing it. Well, I did my best. Right on. Thank you, PMH. You betcha. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thanks again to PMH Outwater for joining me today on Skeptico. I've had a number of emails back and forth with PMH. And I've decided to release this show without comment. So that's what I'm going to do. But it doesn't mean I wouldn't like to hear from you. Join me over in the Skeptico Forum. I've tried a bunch of other platforms. It's the only place I like to be. If you want to talk to me, go to the Skeptico Forum. Until next time, take care. Bye for now.