 All right. We're going live. We're live with the tier list, boys. We're going to talk about not only the tier list, we're going to talk about these heroes, but one thing I've noticed is people will see everybody saying like, oh, Mardak is fucking top tier badass, needs a nerf, but then they don't know how to actually play him. So they take him into lane, they're going to stop with him and then they get stomped. So we'll talk about how to actually be overpowered with these heroes. We'll talk about some of the counters to them, the items that you can build to help out against some of these matchups. But yes, click on your Chrome window and hit F11 on your keyboard. But it, no. Fine, don't I told you there was a reason I couldn't full screen it. I didn't know I could. Yes, I thought you were just being inept. I could. No, no, no, I could full screen it. But whenever I click around it, it deprioritizes our cameras. So there you go. Oh, OK. Whatever. It looks fine. It'll be fine. You look fine. You look fine. If I said it first, the face looks fine. So yeah, we're going to go through this tier list. Of course, don't take it seriously. Oh, yeah, I should probably fucking introduce this. So excuse you. I'm the man, because you know me because you're already you're at my fucking channel here. Mm hmm. Joining me as always, my friend and co-host jelly days. What's up? Here are the authorities of this balance. If they don't make balance changes based on what we say clearly, these developers don't know what they're doing. I agree. Exactly. The best gamers, right? One of us in I mean, two of us are in the top one hundred of the game. Yeah, one of us. We don't talk about because only losers aren't in the top one hundred. OK. Oh, and this dumb son's a bitch next to me is on Viking Jenna. You don't. My friend and I'm the dumb son of a bitch. Why didn't say son of a bitch? Wow, dude. You're all the hype that I throw in all of your and your highlights. I know, right? Yeah, I'm always like back. And I'm so mean to you. So mean to you. She I think this will be a phone talk because I'm fine by jelly. You talk. One of the clips that Mingus put out was him getting chased around as how it's her. My favorite thing is the end of the clip after you help them survive all of that. He turns and I'm just way out in the distance somewhere else. I didn't do it. Yeah, we're used to it. We're used to it. But what happens, Mingus, if he's getting chased by people, where are you guys? Pings all over the place. Oh, my God, dude. That's the jelly music. It doesn't matter anyway. Oh, wow. I always help you, Jelly. I don't know what you're talking about. I see you don't listen to the pings. All right, well, I couldn't. OK, I can't. No, I can't. There we go. No, I can't see my cursor. What the hell is going on? Oh, no. No more F 11 jelly. You heard it here. Mingus wants you to suffer with his URL bar. Oh, my God, I can't see my cursor. What's cool? Oh, God. I thought it looked fine with the URL or URL URL bar. The URL, your earl, the earl. My name is Earl. All right. So how was her? Let's start off with let's start. Let's go in order here. Let's start off with Halley. OK. So I think he's between S and B. I don't think we could put. I don't think he's going to be any lower than that. I said he is a really wide range. OK, hold on, hold on. Actually, I'm curious if you guys are open to this idea before we go too far into this. Instead of doing S, A, B, C, D, we go S needs a nerf. A strong or optimal, right? B like, you know, middle of the road. Because like what I think sometimes with these tierless and this is my thought process behind it is that you sometimes you say like it's an S tier, which means that it's like needs to be picked every single time it's up, which is kind of true. Or it's overpowered or it needs a nerf. But sometimes I think there's value in like talking about it from like this is still a strong pick if you get it in a counter pick versus you can't blind pick it. Like so that means it's a B pick because it's not blind pickable. Whereas anything in A or S is blind pickable because it's just genuinely or, you know, strong. Does that make sense? Like does that thought process vibe well with you? Or do you just want to stick with the generic S, A, B, C, D? I mean, I wouldn't put Countess in B tier. By that logic, she would be a B tier hero and I wouldn't put her in B tier. See that I would buy that logic. I think that she is strong by herself as a kit. Like her kit is fine, but with the like she's stronger in a counter situation, not in a blind pick situation. Right. Yeah. But stronger in a counter pick doesn't make her weak otherwise. I'm not saying so. That's why I was asking if you guys would vibe well with that taking that approach versus the typical just S, A, B, C, D of like this guy's overpowered. Yeah, I mean, we could talk about while we're putting them in each each fucking category. I find it I find that the more you limit yourself with tier lists by imparting your own rules, the less likely you are to have fun with it. Hmm. Do a lot of tier lists, Mingus. Yeah, all the time. He's a tierless streamer right here. Have you ever heard of that channel, Tier Zoo? That's me. Oh, OK. OK, so Howie, who what the fuck are we going to give? How I give Howie an A I would give him an S tier, but I think that they're just better mid laners than how it's her. Not by much, though. He's a great pick all around. I think he's probably the best mid laner that is in the A tier, though. Yes, by by a long shot. I think he to me is that borderline S tier. I completely agree. I think he's only not S tier purely because of the people that are in the S tier and amber tier like in kitchen. I think I think a tier for is because he is blind pickable. So we're using my own logic. I think he is blind pickable. He will do well in almost every matchup. He can sit under tower and just farm, or he can be very aggressive and proactive. And as Mingus uses him very well to gank the sidelines, like he's really good at coming in and offering huge gank assist with his ultimate fairly for free and safely. Whereas a lot of other champions, even the overpowered ones cannot do that in the same way. Like a gadget coming into gank is not nearly as effective, in my opinion, as a howitzer coming into gank because she's on the ground. She has to put herself in the thick of the fight. Granted, she does a lot of damage. And so sometimes that just might dissuade anybody. But I think how it's hers. That's why I would also have him at the very top of A. If not just barely outside of S because the reason why I don't want to put him in S is because I think the S champions either need some kind of adjustment or nerf. And I don't want to see him being adjusted or nerfed because I think he's actually in a very strong. Yeah, I don't think he needs it. Yeah. Pilgrim said it said, said it best. A good how we will feel like a strong S tier, like a really good one. Yes, I think. But you have to have, you have to be really good with him. Like you have to be able to place those mines well. No wind to ult, be able to hit those rockets. Those mines are the biggest thing that separates Oh, yeah. Houston how it's hers versus good how it's hers. Oh, yeah, buddy. How it's hers that they're just like putting out mines just for the hell of it. And I've seen how it's hers that will actually displace people well. And then with those mines and then capitalize full force on it. Yeah, I agree. I think also the underutilized is using it as a zoning tool, just placing it down in a spot. No, and don't immediately, you know, because I see it happen all the time. They throw it out like it's a damage tool. Throw you immediately press E again. And it's like, no, dude, let you can let it sit for a minute. You know what I mean? Like, let it see what happens if someone's dumb and walks up and they knock them into you or you use it as a displacement tool or they're not going to be able to walk them and get farm because that thing's in the way. And I love that. So yeah, really smart usage of E is I think paramount. You know, just where is there are where is everybody just throws their are as soon as they see more than two people together. And it channels people to the mine. Like if you throw it down just in the middle of the lane, people have to walk around it. So you know that they're either going to the left or the right of that mine makes it a hell of a lot easier to predict whether they're going to go and hit them within our 2000 rocket. Now, the rocket, though, I think that's how you counter get a good howitzer, though, is you just stay in your minion wave like they're a fucking barrier shield around you because that rocket's not getting around those minions. Like he has the jump and hit it at the very top of your head to hit you with that thing. And if he's pulling off acrobatics like that, then you're then you're going to be winning the lane anyway. Yeah, 100 percent. Jump Q is your is your friend, because you got to get you got to clear over the minions to be able to shoot that thing. Actually, that's why I think he's better in some cases as a carry or even as an offlaner versus being in mid because of the elevation issues that you're going to encounter as a howitzer currently. But not that he's not weak in mid. I think he just is viable in those other spots. He's very good offlaner. Yeah. Mm hmm. Any items you think that counter how is there? I don't really none of them really come to mind. Stasis, maybe just if you are too hard stuck in the middle of his ultimate, maybe you could stasis out of it or, you know, any of the dash things. That's the one thing that I've noticed is because it is the wind up for him to go into his ultimate is fairly slow. You have a good chance of getting out of it unless it's a team fight situation where is where he shines? Same as gadget, right? If you're just stuck in the fucking thick of it. You're just eating that whole. That's the item I would suggest that people do take on him is called mini moda. It's the applies a slow on ability. It keeps people in your in your ultimate longer. If you're even if you're using the ultimate for damage, most of the time I'm throwing it behind an enemy team so that they're afraid to run through it and then our team could just clean up. Yeah, because it doesn't do that much fucking damage, but people refuse to run through it. Well, the main chunk of the damage is the final rocket that comes down in the middle, right? And that's so if you can place that really well, I think that's the big thing. But I agree, I almost always I'm throwing it behind the enemy team rather than like in front or trying to land it straight because they're going to disengage more times than not. They're going to see you up in the air and they're going to be like, and then you're going to get that whole. But yeah, yeah, my favorite is when a Faye is there because then she sucks them all in so good. Soul freedom. Yeah, we will take that into account because how it's not an easy to pick up and play mid laner. I mean, I think he's somewhat hard to master, though. Yeah, it's hard to master him. You have to master those mines. So yeah, his Q and his right click are alone, very, very strong damage tools for his team. And then the ultimate just as a zoning tool, even when used poorly is still effective in a lot of times and can get how it's out of a sticky situation as well. So we were saying, though, is like a good how it's or will feel as tier. So him being in the A tier generally, I think it makes more sense. And Chad Chad agrees, 70% of Chad said A tier. And we all agree, A tier. So I think Halter is going to be a tier. So let's put Decker in the hot seat, Decker. So, again, I'm going to say between S and B, I don't think we can definitely don't think she belongs in C or D. So I'm going to go ahead and do the poll. You guys want to discuss Decker? I think I'm probably the more supportive person out of all of us. But you guys have faced her a lot. I would definitely put Decker in the A tier, probably. I think for what she does, she's one of the stronger supports between her and Narbash. Her kit is fairly consistent. The hardest thing is landing that ball. But if you can land that ball, you get that feeling down. Or every time you have a good Decker and she lands that ball, it feels unstoppable because she will just land everything on you. The stun, the slow, the wall, right? And then she'll be slippery as hell in trying to fight her that she'll jump around, get around you. I've seen plenty of Deckers just pull off insane plays because they're just juicing people in and out all the time. I think that puts her solidly in the A tier for me. I think she's either borderline A or like a very strong like B plus. And the only reason why I think that is because there her kit requires so much skill, I think to be effective that she starts to fall short with the ease of execution of her abilities, in my opinion. I mean, throwing up her wall is, I think, fairly easy. Landing those cues, especially efficiently, is very, very hard to do. At the right time. And that's the other part. And I think then this is more actually a dig on the way the game is operating, less so her kit. Her cue, the bounce on that thing is so wackadoodle sometimes. Like I've seen Mengus, who is what I would consider a very good Decker player throwing it and it just bounces in the weirdest way. Yeah. You're not expecting it to. And it's like, well, I guess this engages over like it just it's not it's not great. It seems like it sometimes it's like like a flat basketball. And other times it's like a ping pong ball just flipping all over the place. Like it's really weird. So for that reason, I think it could there could be an argument to seeing her more in a B tier. Whereas like a Narbash, I think is a lot easier of an execution, especially since half his kit is just passives that you just turn on and then turn off the hardest part of his is landing a thunk. I don't think thunks are that difficult because they're very fast. So that's why I think but in the hands of a really good player, she could be even S tier, to be honest, especially with how slippery she is. Like that's the part I think surprises people without quick. She could get around gone away with so much shit on Decker. I'm sure for me, I think Decker is S tier for supports, but I don't think she's an S tier hero. Oh, that's a good point. You know what I mean? Yeah. But I think I would hopefully we don't just put them all in A. I don't think we are. No. But yeah, I think Decker is probably a tier, fucking excellent support. I think like I said, I think she's S tier support. Just insane. Like the stuff I get away with on Decker is crazy. And a lot of times you can just. If solo, the enemy ADC is like if they if they just can't shoot well, they're just holding left click and going and you're actually flicking your shots and stunning them in minion waves and stuff. A lot of times you could just you don't even need that ADC. You just take them one with Decker or or you do a mangoes and you are the ADC and playing Decker. Hey, come on now. Come on now. Oh, yeah, because I had to do that one game. Yeah, the one game. Very fun stuff. Items to get on Decker, I think the support. I don't feel you can't. You can never say what to get because it's very situational game to game. Mutants, Mutant Poe. Yeah, wards, Mutant Poe, I think is very underestimated. That's a such a great card for just an extra interrupt or just is that that Fed Kalari that's diving on your your ADC. You just fucking hit him with the Mutant Poe. And you the amount of times that I've been hit with the Mutant Poe. And I just sit there and twiddle my thumbs for five seconds while I'm like, well, this is going to be lame. Like, terrible. The thing, the weird thing about Mutant Poe is it actually is really hard to hit people that are in Mutant Poe. Yeah. Yeah, it can save people if you do it wrong. It box down to the size of the fish. And that is a little wild. It's a it's a little strong, almost. And that like, yeah, they're not doing damage, but it's really hard to do damage to them. Right. It's not a great aggressive tool. Yeah, it's more of a defensive thing. I see. I think of it more like in World of Warcraft, when you sheep somebody and you just you just want them out of the way. Like, that's really what I look at. So like, if you if you get somebody like a beefy boy that's diving in and you're just like, OK, you're a fish now. Like, you don't get. Yeah, I'll put the moon on rampage every time. I just that's I that's how I would look at it. I think it can be used obviously offensively and you can set up ganks with it possibly. But I agree that because it shrunk down and throws off people that they had where to hit them, like, do this is their hitbox still the same or now that is it a fish hitbox? I fucking know. And most of the time we miss. So I think broken watch is another one that is really underutilized, but on a good support. Using that broken watch is really nice. Yeah, this one is a lot more contentious. Yeah, we got 41 percent for a 35 for B and 23 for S. I could see it across the board. I don't think Chad's getting this one wrong. I think it's fair to say that all of those are accurate, depending on the game you're in. I do think what's going on, Decker, which players on Decker? Yeah, our Decker versus your Decker. And I do think what's cool about her, unlike like a Narbash or something like that, she does have a lot more flexibility in items. She can be a damaged support. She can be more of like a utility support. And I think if you are the type of support that wants to be able to have that freedom and be able to carry your games through support, Decker is probably the one to pick up because you'll be able to do all of those things. I think it's pretty cool. The enemy team gives you time on Decker. Like you somebody needs to get in Decker's face and in a team fight. Because if the enemy team gives you time on Decker, you're going to interrupt some shit that was supposed to happen. A Gideon, which you don't see much of because Gideon, I think is going to be on the lower tiers here. But like in that dev game, there's several dash under our tower and was about to knock three people out of our tower and into the the waiting hands of John Snow. And I immediately stunned him as soon as I saw the wind up on colossal blow because nobody was in my face. And that saved us in that particular moment. Didn't win us the game, of course, because the devs are fucking bonkers. But. All right. So I think Decker's eight here. I agree. Sarah, other ones being above her. But for now, I think she's in a good spot. Oh, Sarah, poor old Sarah. Thank God, thank God, Sarah, this is going to be where she is, at least for me, because I'm so glad I've seen very few good Sarahs. I think that's what rain should we give the chat for the poll? A to C. Yeah, I was going to say CBA. OK. Or ABC. I good. Yeah. I think Sarah is really strong in certain matchups. And this existed in Paragon as well. But those matchups that she's really strong in basically don't exist in this game. And so she is in desperate need of some help to be more consistent across the board. Basically, the only good matchup that she gets put into is against Aurora. And Aurora has her own issues that I think we'll talk about later, too. Oh, my God, Aurora, me. For me, Sarah fits pretty solidly in B tier. I think she's high B tier, but I think pretty solidly in B tier needs. She needs something to bring her up to the the level of those A tier guys that we'll get into a little bit later. You would think with her kit that people will be utilizing her much, much better. But I have not seen a Sarah be successful in a game yet. Yeah, those like even when they're doing well, they're really not having that big of an impact, it seems. I don't. Yeah, that this one may just be the community needs time with her. Like we said, we're doing this tier list pretty early. I think once the community gets some time with her and understands her kit a little better, maybe she she will be better. I don't know. I think the biggest thing is her queue is awful in this game. It does very little damage, even when she's in the heresy form of it, right? It does very little damage. The area of effect is not that large. The time that she's invincible is really not that long. Like it's just it's all around. Her queue is not nearly as strong as it was in Paragon. And her everything else is fairly single target, right? Like she has she can land on multiple enemies with her jump. Yes, she can hit multiple enemies with her wings. But for the most part, it's going to hit one, maybe two people at most. And that's just not enough for Sarah at this point. Yeah, I had her at us. I changed it from the one that I sent you guys, but I because I had her initially pretty high up. But I actually think that she's in maybe C tier and high C tier personally. The only place I've seen her currently effective is actually as a as a jungler because she's able to come in, impact and then leave. I feel like when she's sitting in a lane and having to farm, the other laners are in a better position more times than not to be able to consistently get farm, push her under tower and make her ineffective. Whereas if she's able to roam around, get her farm relatively for free as a jungler, right? And then impact lanes when she chooses to do so. That's when I feel like she's been effective. I don't know if that's her design, but it seems to be the only time I've seen her effective and it's from that place, which is why I think and I think her numbers are a little low. I think she needs some kind of adjustment. I don't think it's in because she's fairly tanky, right? So maybe that's part of it. Is that they've maybe leaned her more towards like a higher tank, like a tank rather than like a damage bruiser. And that but it feels weird considering what most of her kit does. And for what a lot of people are saying, or a lot of her kit is quite glitchy. Stormhawk was saying that he had a Serath counter him on Gadget by amuting the mines every time they would have. But I had, I played a game accidentally of Serath mid against a Gadget and that was my one saving grace. Yep, yeah, I could just negate her Q. But that's not that to me is more of a gadget being stupid than it is me playing well. Yeah, like it's very reactionary. It's very much like, oh, I got hit with a mine. Now I just Q and my Q is wasted, right? If I do damage or not, my whole point is to negate damage, not deal damage. Right. And that's where I see the Q used more often than not is just as a damage negation tool, more than a damage dealing tool. Yeah. And I agree with Finlith. If you build her, she does she does well. And that's also because I think you can go into tank items that help you do more damage passively. Like you ever get the name of the item, but it's basically where you have like an aura around you. You must do it. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. And that's that's a good item on her. It's a really good item. So if you build her health and tank, I think that you're going to have a lot better of a time. Again, I also think that she's stronger in jungle currently than she is as an offlaner, but you maybe can make her work as an offlaner depending on what matchup you get. I agree with Pilgrim here. I think that's partly because tank items are insane. Yeah, busted. They are. Yeah. If you can build a tank item, you're probably going to be pretty strong. Well, part of the problem I think, too, with Sarath is she has a lot of stuff that makes her stand still. Like her queue makes her stand still. So you just wait for it to be done and then you nail her. And you would think that her ascend would be great because you're going up in the air, but over problem seems to be a ranged game. Like if you're playing ranged, you're fine. And whenever she goes up in the air, that's just free damage for everybody that she's and while she's not dealing damage. So I don't know, man. So I think I think she needs some love. I had a game with him earlier today. It was a rough game. Yeah, it was a rough game for us. We're playing comp and he was doing his best to try and carry. We got him gadget first pick and he was doing his best to try and carry. But our team did not want to want to go with that plan. A nutshell. Yeah. So we put Sarath B. It seems like a chat agrees that B is the place for her to go. Yep. All right, go. I'm sure it covered a slide. This would be an easy one. Gadget. Where do we want to put gadget? So D. D tier. For these nuts. C tier. C tier gadget. So again, this is something I think that we were talking about with ease of use. There's no skill involved with gadget. Like you don't have to have you have to barely any skill to play her well. Can you look in a direction of your target? Congratulations. You win. You win. I think the hardest part of her is landing the queue when you're trying to aim uphill because the game glitches sometimes and we'll throw it at the top of the hill. Rather than at the person that you were aiming at. Could D for delete. D for delete. So I do want to talk about since I think most of us are probably going to agree that she's very high, if not S tier and I'm giving the room for for chat. What do we think she needs to? Is it just a damage straight nerf or is there an adjustment that needs to take place in her kit as a whole? Because I don't want her to I don't want to end up like Gideon like I don't want her to be nothing. She needs a damage nerf and she needs cast time on her queue. Yes. OK. Those are those are the two biggest things that she needs because her queue doing quarter health at level one is insane. Her queue doing quarter health at level one is just absolutely wild. Yeah. And the fact that it's basically if you are in an open area and it's an even remotely confident gadget, she will hit it a hundred times out of 100. Right. Like it's it's so fast. There is no dodging it. There is no wind up time on the mine when it arrives. There is no very fast. The only way to dodge the mine is being a group of minions and pray that it selects a minion over you. Right. Yep. That's what covetous lemon said, too. And so for me and this was something we had to happen in a game me and Mingus were in and we've talked about this before. It's even if you are able to survive or even have an advantage over her in lane, right? As soon as it starts to turn into teamfight time, it doesn't matter how far behind she is anymore. She gets to stay far back, throw her cues and land her ultimate. And it's pretty fucking damaged. Like unless you can dive her, which is going to be difficult because she just has so many items, a good gadget. We'll just drop her slow and run away. Yeah. Or and she has her speed up field. Like she's just got a lot of stuff. And and and she is fun to play, by the way. She's super fun to play, but she's she's so oppressive and she can fit off lane. She can fit mid lane. She can play support. She can and if she plays support, she's going full damage support. You were fucked if you get a gadget support because you just sit in a bush and there's nothing you can do about it. You were not walking up to her without taking half health damage. It's actually insane. I think the main thing is not just the damage. I don't want to see her damage nerf too much. I think it's just making the queue a bit more punishable. So having it on like a longer cool down and a little bit slower travel time. I don't think it should be so easy to constantly land as efficiently as it is because it'd be like getting in when you throw your queue. Like you target it and you drop it. It takes a little bit for it to actually hit after you target it. Gadget is just instant. Just boom, there's the mine. Boom, there's the mine. Boom, there's the mine like a point two second travel time. Yeah, nobody got to that. Like it's wild in the area is still just as big as her mine used to be, which is bigger than a Gideon queue and does more damage. And it's it's the locks on. Oh my God, there's just the only saving grace is like I was saying, like sometimes if you're really, really good with shadow slip, you can immune the damage on Countess or with Serath, you can immune the damage. But I think too with the the strat of just hiding in your minions and hope that it doesn't pick you. The problem is minion block is fucking terrible in this game. And you might just get stuck in there with the bomb anyway. Doesn't necessarily make you. It doesn't help you. Yeah, and it's just from level one how strong she can be. I don't know maybe how it's there's the only other one that level one because you can go with his queue. It's is also pretty strong level one. Nobody else, I think in the mid lane, especially any other mange can compete with her damage level one and your jungler isn't going to be able to come in there because he's going to be behind because it's mid lane. So they're going to come in at level two or three and then and just also eat a bunch of fucking mines. So it's like, OK, I'm coming to your lane. A good gadget will literally just go up, drop a queue and then back up and wait for it to go off. Yep. And then wait eight seconds and go up and do it again. As a jungler, it's so hard to get on a gadget because her range is just enormous. Yep. And all of her damage with her abilities. So at most she might walk up for a minion. But if she sees you coming, she's going to drop a queue, drop her speed up field or slow field, depending on who you are and walk away. Like it's just so free for her. It's ridiculous. Wraith is probably a good another one. It's not I wouldn't call it a counter, but it can survive lane with her. Like pilgrim said, I think I think Wraith can survive lane with her. But I don't think he's going to stop her. And again, second point, you're not. Wraith is not going to matter in the same way that a gadget will. And once it goes to team fights, like a good Wraith is great as they might be is not going to be able to do as much effort or as much to the team as a good gadget. Well, and that's why I think she needs to have a hard look at. I think she's probably the worst out of the ones that will probably end up putting in this. I think she's the one that needs the the the the most aggressive look at. Oh, yeah. And you see that in competitive, too. Gadget is a must ban or a must pick. It's she or some miracle does not get banned. If you do not first pick her, you are throwing the game. Yeah. Yes. Is it is still possible to lose when you're on gadget because the rest of your team feeds so hard that gadget just can't make enough of an impact later? But gadget will always be strong. Like there's literally not a reason to not pick gadget if she's up. Yep. No, I agree. I'm going to be doing a video pretty soon because I Jedi and I just played a game where I was on the fay against a pretty decent mid lane gadget and kind of cracked the code with her a little bit. Just I was able to own her in lane. But like Jedi said, later on in teamfights, it just didn't matter that I'd own her in late. She just wasn't hitting as hard. But and then I thought that it was because my rampage ganked early, but then when I look back at the video, he missed his rock, missed his jump and didn't hit her once. So. Sounds like a rampage. Yeah. But yeah, oh, yeah, she's she's asked here. Let me in the poll. I will say if you are going mid lane against her. OK, S plus plus fifty four percent. Yeah, I didn't even give anybody any other options. She just needs her own category, to be honest. I think that's why I think it's almost not fair to have that for her to be an S because the other ones I think that we're going to put into S are not nearly as insane as she is. I think she's the most overpowered needs needs a band or not a band. Well, she does need the band hammer, but she needs a nerve. Really bad. And she. What I was going to say is that Arkon's gospel, the spell vamp item is really good if you could build it fast enough in lane. She's just so oppressive, though, that a lot of times you're just not going to be getting any gold because she's going to be popping mines on top of your head fucking constantly. And for her build, you can do whatever the fuck you want. Yeah, like, yeah, it doesn't matter. Asshole and build like the one that does slow. So that way they're not they get the bomb, they're slow. Then you run up and you put their slow field. They're getting extra slowed and you just sit there and fuck with them. Oh, I've seen it. And it is Jesus. Let's move on to the fame. My girl, Duffay, Duffay, Duffay. I've come around, I've really come around on the Fae at first. I love the Fae when I first played her. I would have put her a D tier because I didn't understand her kit. And now now I understand her kit. I would definitely put the Fae at a tier. But I think a lot of people would probably put her a B. So that's, I would put her in a higher B tier. Like, I honestly, I could see her low A high B, right? Like, it's one of those things she, I think she's supremely matchup dependent. And I think she right now thrives better in the off lane because of those matchups dependencies rather than the mid lane or honestly, even support sometimes. I don't think she's as good as the other supports in the majority of cases, right? And so I think she kind of has a struggle of identity at the moment where she's a off laner that is not designed to be an off laner. And with that, she kind of suffers and needs something to put her back into that mid lane position where she really should be by all accounts of how the drafts should go. And so I would put her in a, like I said, like a very low A high B kind of area. I agree. If we if if I yeah, low A high B, exactly where I'd be above Sareth for sure, I think she's her damage is actually surprisingly good if you land all of her stuff. The problem is, is a lot of her stuff other than her ultimate in her right click. It's it's fairly easy to I mean, while her E is just a point click, but it doesn't do all that much damage. It's just like a free poke every single time. Whereas with her brambles, which do a dot, you know, damage over time, you can just walk out. You literally just sidestep and you're not having to get damaged by it anymore. So in lane, like I think jelly saying, if you're playing off lane or maybe even in mid lane, you're able to farm for free. It's really, really easy. You get poke for free. It's to me when she really starts to struggle is again, getting into those teamfights. When you think about her ultimate and her right click and all that stuff, you think that she would be really, really strong, but they're on really high cooldowns. And so once you've thrown them out there, unless you have like a lot of other stuff to kind of keep them locked into place, it just doesn't I don't know. I kind of wish her ultimate did something more to the effect of slowing after the pole, because the pole just it brings them in. I've done it so many times. They pull brings them in. I throw my right click to try and get some more extra damage on them. And they just they just run right out of it. Yeah, it just doesn't matter at all. And you're just like, well, I got all my whole downs has to be three or three plus people on the enemy team getting pulled by it. Otherwise, it feels like a waste almost every time. Yeah, it's it's like it made me as a pickoff thing. You could try and like, you know, isolate one person. I don't know. It's not like she's bad. Like she's super fun to play. Like, I really, really had a lot of fun with her in Offlane because you get free poke with your E. Most of the melees can't do anything. And if anything, you just farm right in front of your tower and there's your fine. But it's to me, it's where she falls off is in teamfights. She can have great teamfights, not that she can't. I just think that that's where she struggles the most. And that's why I don't put her up higher. So I I I love her. I would definitely put her A or S tier for myself. But oh, that that's again, I think it's dependent upon who's piloting her. I don't want to. You know, I'm rarely cocky, but I'm a pretty goddamn good fay player. I went but 16 and 0 last night, 24 and 4 or 20 and 4 during that game earlier. Like, I'm pretty pretty goddamn good with the fay. But so I understand that, but she's not easy to use. You have to you have to sweat hard to play well with her. And like, she's definitely a little more skill dependent than than gadget for sure. And my stream chat locked up. It's just loading. So I don't I can't end the poll. So nice. Yeah. Wow. Awesome. Six away, can you burst with the fay? Yes. If you're really fed. If you're really strong. But it's not what it's a burst damage. I mean, it can be a game with the amount of items people have. It's not burst damage anymore. And like, it's just it's OK damage. Like it's it's the land, basically everything to. I'm trying to damage. I'm trying to like. Player and comp and come back to me about how the phase really strong. OK, OK, OK. No, no, no, no. This fucking guy will both agree with me. Quick battles are a completely different level of skill. Yeah. Ninety percent of the players. Like to me, I have you had a chimera earlier that died to Red Buff, right? Like this really the easiest jungler in the game died. He literally has built in health regen and he died to a camp. Like you can't tell me quick battle is the place to be testing things out necessarily. I don't know. Well, I did agree that she doesn't have burst though. Because if you lay the right click down first or untamed growth, then you throw her ultimate down. So they're pulled into the final burst of the flower, which is a large amount of damage. And then if you're laying a brambles on top of that, she can be bursty, I'm saying. I'll agree with you guys. I'll say she's B. I'll say she's B. I'm willing to actually, because we both said that we think that she could be A tier. I'm not saying that she's not an A tier champion. I just think that she doesn't once outside the laning phase. Like in laning, she is oppressive. She's annoying. I think she's super strong. She might be one of the strongest laners. I just think that she starts to fall off once things start getting hectic. Because all of her cooldowns are really high. That's it. So I think you can put her in. Her E is all like the shortest cooldown of anything in the game. That's not hard. That's in a team fight. Her E is just a poke tool. You're not going to win a fight because of your E. What? Okay. We'll argue about this later. I'm arguing about it right now. I'm max her E first. Put her at A. Put her at A. No, I'm keeping her at B. Okay. Well, then put her at the top of B. Don't leave her behind. Oh, I didn't realize there were tops, bottoms here. There's always tops and bottoms. I'm just going to move us on to the next one. I actually could see an argument for Narbash being S tier. Purely because of his heal. The amount of healing. We saw this in the last test too when he was added. But the amount of healing that that thing gives off is absolutely wild. If you don't build first item anti-heal, you're going to lose. They will just out-heal you and then by association out-damage you. Push you out of lane, take your tower. Push you out of lane, take another tower. Push another lane, take another tower. It's just practically impossible to deal with a Narbash heal. All he has to do is press a button and let it go. It's not skill-based. It's not anything. And then you've got his Q giving movement speed and attack speed absolutely bonkers. His right click being a really solid stun. Just point-click, practically stun. If you're aiming at them, you're probably going to hit them nine times out of 10. And then his ultimate is just really consistent as well in teamfights. He's actually kind of wild. How strong he is. I would have him at the bottom of S tier only because of the caliber I think that we're going to have of S. Or towards the top of A tier just behind Howitzer. I think he's better than Decker personally. Just because of the ease of execution. I think Decker already said that he has a lot more flexibility than he does. But his ability to just keep everybody alive for a really long time is so strong. And early. It's not like you even have to have a lot of items. The only thing that you maybe need is mana, right? I feel like it's so easy to back, come back in, full mana, full health, and get back into being able to support your team. He's really strong. High A, bottom of S for sure. And he has one thing that Decker doesn't have. Big ol' booty, and that counts. That really does count when you're supporting because you're not shooting around Narbash. If he's getting in your face, you're not hitting that ADC that's at fucking 0.1 health. And you're getting real pissed off that he's surviving. And then when you finally do get a shot off with him, he's already healed so much from Narbash's healing that he still gets away. Seriously. And that's the other thing he gets away from you saying. You can't stun him out of his ultimate. He can. You can get stunned. You can't stun him. You can't start an ultimate. Narbash's ultimate is the weakest part of his kit. I thought you couldn't stun him out of it. Yeah. Absolutely. You can't stop literally everything in Overprime. Oh, interesting. Okay. Also, the extra two towers come from the other lanes because theoretically after you've pushed your first tower down, you're not pushing an inhib down. So you're going to go to another lane and take those towers. And if you build Narbash tanky, like I did that one game where we played, holy shit, he could just survive through everything. Yeah. Yeah. His ultimate, that's the only thing really holding Narbash back is his ultimate. The biggest thing as well with the dual lane in Overprime is the fact that there's that mana buff just off the lane or supports specifically like Narbash. If you're with like... Mana equals health. Right? Yeah, exactly. If you're with a sparrow who really isn't going to use that much mana in lane, Narbash should get that every single time. And then he doesn't need to back anymore. He's got a permanent mana fix. You've got a permanent health fix for both of you. And then just the pressure he can put out will just keep you both healthy and in lane and just out battling the other team every time. Right on. The other thing, I will say Pilgrims, right? They need to add a... We talked about this, I think, in last FCM. They need to add a tank starter item for supports. So, yeah, everybody's saying S tier. There you go. We'll put an old Narb... Narby, boy, I'm happy to see him there. I'm happy to see Narbash at S tier. Me too. I'll probably want to put him at A, but... Because I don't think he offers as much utility as Decker, but... I'm happy with him at S. Strong as hell. Revenant! Yeah. I think all the ADCs are up there, but I think Revenant is on the lower end of the ADCs. I think there are three ADCs or two ADCs that hit S tier easy, and then the other three are all A tier. I don't think they're bad, but they are nowhere near the power level of the two really, really strong ones. Mm-hmm. I'll let you guys speak on that. He fits into A tier 100%. He is very good as an ADC, right? His E is very consistent in the slow and the extra damage on basic attacks. His right click is kind of bugged, but I don't think that necessarily hurts him too much if you figure out how to play around it. His Q is always really strong, not as strong as other peoples necessarily, but I think he's very consistent. I think ADCs across the board are very strong in this game. I just don't think he's at the S tier level of that strength. I pretty much completely agree. I could actually see in some aspects putting him even lower. I could see him as like a high B, and the whole reason why is because of his inconsistency. So his current kit, if you are just landing left clicks and really good at right clicking, you're probably going to be decent, but his E is just okay. His missiles, unless you've really isolated somebody, are going to almost always get split up and they don't really do all that much damage. So it's just, I don't know, he just kind of falls flat a lot of times depending on scenarios. Now we've probably all had a game where you've had a guy on Revenant who's just fed out of his mind, balting perfectly timed, and you're just like, I can't even play the game because this guy is just so fucking strong. I feel like more times than not though, you've got the Revenant who's in the dumpster, can't farm for shit because he doesn't know how to time his right clicks. Doesn't use his last hits with his final shot correctly. It's just, because it's more confusing. It's like, you know, our gen versus your gen, right, like in League of Legends, because gen can be really strong, but because the kit is very unique and needs to be used in a unique way, you still end up, you find yourself down here more than you find yourself up here. I would imagine we're going to encounter more bad Revenants because his kit is kind of not intuitive than good Revenants who've mastered the ins and outs. Yeah, I think skill plays a big factor in Revenants. It takes way more skill than the other ADCs to play, which is why I don't want to put him at S tier because I don't think, because I'm thinking of who is S tier, Murdoch. He's a worse version of Murdoch than what Revenant is. I agree. Again, I would have him at B. I would have him at a high B, maybe low A, personally. And then the other thing too is his ultimate is just completely countered by Margaret Stone, the Stasis item. Yep. As soon as he ults you, you see him coming in, you hit it, and you watch his obliterate, his right click and his obliterate go into you and do absolutely nothing, and then you pop out of it, kill him, and roll along with your life. I did plenty of times where I don't even need that. I could just run away, because there's no... It's not like you're trapped in a box. You can just run away from him. If you still have Blink up or you have anything, you're just like... He does kill you while you're rooted when he hits the button. Yep. Then you're going to survive nine times out of ten for a lot of Murdochs or a lot of Revenants. So let's see what Chat says. The Revenants are devastating. You're right. I think they have him really high. They must hate him because they probably play against a good one. He can be strong. He's an A tier personally. I think he's maybe high B. I think Crit makes him A tier across the board. I think he's A. Crit on the A tier is just bonkers. Especially if that last... If his final... If his fourth shot... Crit... Oh my God. It does like almost 2,000 damage. It's insane. One shot somebody. It's fucking nuts. No kidding. Fucking nutty over here. So we'll leave him at A then. Yep. Aurora. All right. Ooh, this. I'm flack for this one. I know. I know for a fact. I honestly would put Aurora in C tier. Interesting. I've been thinking about this one all day. I think Aurora is hot garbage. Okay. She just does nothing in 90% of the games that you see in Aurora. And even a good Aurora, the best thing she's going to do is wall. And that's not saying too much, right? Like she's not... Her ultimate's ineffective. Her right click is basically useless. A lot of the time it seems. Her wall is the only really, really effective skill that she has. Her decoy, meh. Like it's just, she's so underwhelming. Even a fed Aurora doesn't scare me in the slightest. They usually... Most Aurora's have been building tank from what I've seen. I think... Yep. I think the biggest problem with Aurora, I think you would see a lot of really, really good Aurora's out there. She wasn't just buggy as fuck. Thank you. The amount of Aurora's I've seen stuck up in the air because they used their wall at the wrong place and then they're just stuck is insane. Aurora's will wall over top of you, her ally, and then you're just stuck inside the wall. And there's... They shit you can do. And the amount of times that goddamn Aurora on my team has walled me off from either helping her or helping the rest of my team. Oh my God, that makes me so mad. I'm not talking about you, Jenna. No, I'm talking about him. It maybe happened once or twice. So I think she is weird because there are moments where I've played up against one or I've happened to luckily be one where she can do a lot of damage. It's just so situational. Like to get the stuns off to be able to use that because the thing that I like about her is how fun she is to press. When you press the buttons, they all feel really good. But again, in teamfights, it's kind of hit and miss. If you get your ice wall around you or whatever, her E, whatever the ice things that go out, you can actually stunlock people for a long time. But then you can also stunlock your teammates when you decide to... Now I need to get out of here, so I'm going to wall out and now have your teams walled off from the objective or from being able to kill somebody or whatever. So I don't... High C, I think. A long answer or a short answer for a long explanation. High C. Crazy thing is even though she has more utility in her kit to help your team, she's still worse than Sereth. A tank Sereth is still more effective than a tank Aurora. A damage Sereth is still more effective than a damage Aurora. Even though they're going to go almost identical builds, Sereth puts out so much more for her team in help despite the fact that she has less utility in her kit. I won't fight you there. Because at least with Sereth, again, I think she's the strongest in jungle whereas if you take Aurora jungle, you're just trolling. She's really only effective in... You could play her support, I think. Maybe. I've seen a lot of Aurora supports, actually. And she's decent there because she has the utility but I wouldn't make that higher than C tier. She is not a support. Her kit should not be being used as a support. There are supports that do better than her. That do better things than her more consistently than she does. And she should be an off-laner. Her kit is kind of built around that off-lane design. It's similar to other off-laners. And it doesn't work in this game at all. Kid Death, thank you for being a subscriber for such a long time. I think part of the problem with Aurora, too, is her ultimate used to deal so much fucking damage. But people aren't building damage on her now, so her ultimate is just... It's barely a CC. Because everybody's building tank Aurora. The first 10 games I went against Aurora, she would ult and I legitimately would go, did that do anything to me? I was never scared to see an ult come out of her. I was never worried. I was never anything. The biggest concern I had with her is that she would wall away from me and then decoy after that so I could not catch up to her. Right. But past that. Her disengage is really strong. Or engage in the same... Right. But to me, when two of your abilities are used as movement abilities rather than... There's other champions that can do the same... Relatively the same thing and do damage at the same time. So I kind of wish that there was... I don't know, maybe when her ice wall explodes or something like that, it does some AoE damage or something like that. Or it does a slow at least. I don't know. It does feel... More times than not, you're using it to disengage or to try and chase somebody down and hope that you catch up to them and knock them out of travel mode. Yep. So. Alright. High C it is. C tier. Yep. Chad agrees. Muriel. You know fucking farted when I pulled her over the goddamn microphone too. Right. Fucking... Man, we have so many more champions. We got to do this faster. I'm going to talk a little bit less. Muriel. Muriel. Muriel's good. I think she's low A tier. I think she's better than B tier. Just... I don't have a ton of reasoning other than she's really consistent. Her right click, being able to target people through walls and all that kind of stuff. Very, very valuable. Super, super good ability. Great ultimate. She's like an ultimate speed. Absolutely great. Her ultimate, absolutely incredible. The worst part of her ultimate is the fact that she goes to where the hero was. Not where the hero is. Yep. So I've killed a lot of Muriel's because they ults to save somebody. That person gets out, but I'm just sitting there waiting for Muriel to land. It's terrible for Muriel, but I still think she's way, way consistent. And having that stun, a good Muriel will just destroy you with that stun and keep her carry still shielded at the same time. Yep. I agree. The good Muriel, as I've seen, have been really good, but that is definitely what holds her back as being a good support, is that ultimate not going to the actual person. Because it leaves her out in fucking La La Land and she has zero survivability and she cannot escape like Deckard would be able to do in that situation. She can't just fucking live through it like Narbash. She just dies. I think something that would actually be a buff to her, despite at the same time nerfing her as well, is putting a circle on the ground of where she's going to land. Because then your team at least has a visual indication of, oh, my Muriel will be in this area. Right? Because I, even all the time when I get ulted by Muriel, in my head, she's coming to me. Yeah. So if I just get the heck out of dodge, it's fine. She'll just land with me. We'll be good. And then when she lands, I'm like, oh, right. I kind of just left her out to die. Oh, my bad, Muriel. Right. Like if you have that visual indicator, while the enemy will know where she's going to knock up, it will also tell your team that there is something going on here. Be around this area. I agree. I think she should also land with her own shield. Personally. Come to Slim and I agree. Nobody, nobody uses her will. I don't, I don't ever fucking play Muriel. I just understand her value. I think what's cool about Muriel and why I think she's a tier is because she's blind pickable. You can put her, you can pick her. And for the most part, you're going to be fine. I do agree with the med kit that I think if you're going to use two abilities, the stun should last longer. Or do more damage or something like that. Cause it feels sometimes like it's kind of like, I use two abilities and I stun them for half of a second or less than half a second. I think it's a really, really short. Cool. Or a stun. Almost very rarely actually is a super efficient as a stun. Like you're not going to set up a kill typically with it. You might. It's like a hiccup. I think, I mean, I think it's a bad stun in lane, but being able to stun as many people as she can during a team fight. Cause that's bad. But there's other AoE stuns that do a better job than that. And no, there's not in basic abilities. Yeah. I would put her in B tier myself just because her ultimate is so trash. Phase laser does a root. Yeah, but you have to land like every tick of that phase laser. Like that's not. Yeah. It's 10 ticks. That's just a root. It is just a root. You're right. It's not a stun. So you guys are saying A, I'm saying B. I think she's, you can put her at the bottom of A personally. I think that's where I would put her. What does the chat say? A also. So bottom of A. There she goes. It'll light. But again, like coming to slim and said, I just think people aren't using her well. I think people pick her because they know she's a support and they got forced into support. So most of the time when you're up against a Muriel, you're up against somebody that got forced into support. Not somebody that picked support. Yeah. The recollect the skin choices this time for her were not fun. They did a lot of, I liked the chocolate one. Yeah, you do. Muriel. That's supposed to mean a lot of ways, but I think still they're very generic and even Muriel and Paragon had very generic skins. I think the best Muriel skin, and this is going to be the weirdest thing to be saying, I think the best Muriel skin I've ever seen is the one that didn't release in fault. Yeah. Right. The lifeguard Muriel. Yeah. Better than anything Epic ever made, better than anything I've seen from any of these other games. That is by far the best Muriel skin. And we'll never get to see it. Exactly. Let's talk about phase. S tier. Phase. S tier. I think yeah. The bad phases literally just don't read her kit. Yeah. Yeah. Stop pulling early unless you're 100 percent securing the kill. Yep. Yeah. That's the main mistake I see people make with phase is like, if I go into lane and a phase links me and it immediately pulls me. I'm like, alright, easy day. Let's fucking eat this phase alive. If she leaves that link as long as she possibly fucking can. Oh, you tank a lot of you because you're getting so much healing. Like even if you're getting dove and they're trying to focus you you're healing through and doing so much damage the other thing I see a lot of them make mistakes and I've caught myself doing it is that you want to Link and you want to eat right away Q first because you want your full cast of your E And you want to get your damage the Q damage is Insane yeah, and it does AOE so you can actually hit multiple people with it So get your right click hit your Q and then start hitting your E the other thing too It'll make your E easier to land because they won't be sitting there trying to dodge your laser as you're lasering them with it Because they're yeah, they need you right click an ult on phase have put me from full health to quarter health So many times it's ridiculous. Your damage is absolutely wild Yeah, and it's just lock on like there's nothing you can really do about it. It's just locked on to you Yep, so we think you ult done Do we think that she's s tier and needs to be nerfed or adjusted or is she just she's in a Good place, but she's strong in that good place. Oh needs to be nerfed needs to be nerfed Yeah, I've seen people support well with her But she's not even designed to support anymore, but people still pull it off And if she is played in mid lane like that's that's your gadget counter because you just Heal up all that mind damage that she put on your head while dealing a fuckload of damage to her Her Q does as much damage as a fucking Gideon Q and like if you haven't linked to the person So they take it and if you and if they're trying to run through their minions to get away from you You're killing all their mate. You're getting wave clear out of it, too. Oh my god She is just Stupid and that blind in the middle of a team fight is so fucking disruptive And she pulls people when you're trying to do a tower defense There's no way you're gonna step up because phase is gonna pull you out from under your tower And then her team is gonna fucking fuck you up. She is just ridiculous to pull you under her tower Yes, she's absolutely wild and literally they like the people that don't do well on phase Just don't hit control and read what her abilities do Like if you read them and actually tried to understand you will be ten times more successful on phase. Yeah, I guarantee it Yeah, yeah, like Finlayeth is saying. Yeah, the double damage from the Q is actually it comes it comes from you and it comes from them So if you get right next to them, yep I've been popped so many times with that is ridiculous And then if you're not dead she she could just use her ultimate for the one thing is good for Securing a kill if you didn't kill people. Yeah, seriously Yeah, like you would think her ultimate would be used mainly to get her out of danger So like knock people away from her from from ganking or no just more damage for her murder them. Yep God I I like that they made her a caster. I think it's cool. But goddamn yeah, why is she so fucking strong? Yeah, no her damage needs to be nerfed and the link range needs to be shorter That's how I think you would squash the support out of her I think that's partly why she's so strong as support is that link rage is really long and being able to have a carry Dash away from you or use an ability to push you back and still be able to Pull them back into the fight. Basically. He's just always going to be very very strong Right the other really good supports we talked about in our bash when talking about Decker You have to stun them and then bring the fight to them This is a way that you bring them to you back into a fight Even if they just escaped it and then can blind them and do damage then then again there after right like it's not The agency is not on you the agency is always on the enemy. I will say I do think she needs to be nerfed But not in the pole range necessarily. I think her Q needs to be nerfed That's I of the of the things that need to be nerfed. I think it's her Q And and because I think if you limit her range on her right click to try and get her out of bot lane Then you make her way weaker in mid and possibly off lane because she won't be able to keep up with the range That is there from the other mages her E doesn't do enough damage to be able to efficiently poke with it consistently And her Q is only effective as a damage tool if you can land the link So you would be putting herself putting her into like almost melee type ranges to be able to get her damage across Which I think would be counter I think you lowered the amount people are CC'd or with through the blind and the damage that the Q does Maybe you make it to where the Q's don't stack like they do currently Or if they do stack it's like halfed from one of them, you know what I mean or something like that the the issue with her current pole range and even chat mentioned it now as well is How do you institute a pole character when phases does everything better than a pole character does? Yeah, I mean we haven't seen Richard in this game, but comparatively speaking Richard His pole was always a very high mana ability because the the it was hard to hit it Ate up a lot of mana because the reward is so strong base just gets that reward on a lock-on for very low mana It's like what the fuck man range as a huge pole character Right like the the downsides of playing a Richter comparatively to playing phase and support You know worse every time like it that's and that's why the range needs to be nerfed on it Like it's yes It puts her into a harder matchup against other casters, but she should be in a harder matchup against other casters She has a blind for God's sake. That's not meant to be countering casters That's meant to be countering melee's and assassins So she should be the assassin counter pick in the mid lane if you want her to be a caster if you're gonna make her like That that's the direction you need to push it Otherwise you're gonna have a caster that is just a one of the best mid laners and one of the best supports in the game Again, I don't I don't disagree that she's strong in all the roles I think that her pole is very strong I would be actually more okay with getting rid of the pole before getting rid of the range of it the link Okay, if they just remove the pole and just have it to where you can link and do in your cue and I think she would I think she would still be strong. I think she would still be strong I Because the thing that I just I disagree in the sense that that if you put if you made her range to the point Where she can't be played in bot then I don't think she'll get played in mid either and With I don't want to see that because I think her kit is fun. I think she's a cool character as a whole I like seeing her in a playable meta. I don't want to see her Relegated to where Gideon is because he just doesn't do good enough in comparison to the others So therefore he doesn't get played or he gets picked because people don't know But that's where Gideon has nothing for anybody whereas if even if she had the pole at a lower range She still is a definitive melee counter Right, even if you're playing her for the late game right then teamfights right Kalari comes in chimera comes in grucks comes in Any of those people she still is supremely effective even with a shorter range pull. Yeah, I guess I don't know I want to agree to disagree on that I would rather get rid of the pole all together and still allow the link to be as long as it is For the ability to poke But she's she's very strong Who says she's seat here? Probably trolling. I think she's she is fun to play if you haven't played her yet and try her She works in basically every role like you could play her as Carrie technically She's very very fun. Very strong. I like the only place I would say is not in jungle But I think the question is the way with that. Is she above gadget or below gadget below below gadget. Yeah, I Will say a great counter item Great, I'm counterpick for her is I think it's called relic of a sign OS Y and E. That's how I searched for it Cleanses all debuffs. So and you even get a tier two version of it So it's relatively cheap that'll cleanse debuffs So she links you you hit that and now you have movement speed and she has no link and He's easy to kill Yeah, it's basically required by against a good phase. I should say mm-hmm Then you see a lot of people complaining about getting like but they never buy that and I was like come on man Just the CD on it is actually pretty decent It's like 20 seconds or more more at level one So if you break the link early, she doesn't have half of her kit to use Yep All right move on to Murdoch. That's tier again. Yeah, it's here Yeah, you talk about it much. He's just so boy broken strong better revenant We said revenant was the worst Murdoch. He's a better revenant in every single way His queue is longer range more damage. He's got a knockback for anyone that tries to gank him His long range grenades will stop backs secure kills Whatever you need farm from a distance and then he's got his long dong of the law that can just Keep him ahead at any point in the game because he can catch up by stealing kills from other places Yep, I love that. That's just everybody's name for it now. It is it is I would have Murdoch right above nabash at this point. I think he's still below the two casters And only because those two casters are just so strong. He does take a while to come online If if people build him incorrectly, he can fall flat That's the other thing too It's like you still do need to build him correctly and you need to know what you're building into I would say out of most of the carries You can't just do one single build and have him just be very very strong You do need to understand who you're playing against and kind of itemize a little bit more Like if they have a lot of tanks because unlike with twin blasts where his attack speed gets really really high And he can dodge around and he gets a lot more hyper carry style Murdoch doesn't do that. He's you need to have enough to be able to burst through Tanks, otherwise you'll eventually die because it'll just be able to I'll that's my thought but I could be off base You can build him crit like every other one But I do think he shines and his flexibility of being able to go into like tank busting Items and stuff like pilgrim said he doesn't have a cool hat though So how can he be how can he be better than revenant? um and then uh real easy brings up of course that um His q doesn't get blocked by minions that just locks on to a target and hits him no matter what So much. Oh my god. That's way better than revenants Okay, so same question since with the ast here Do we think he's any strong place or just because other people the other ones are weak like the rest of the game is weak Or does he need a nerf 100% needs a nerf. Yeah, he needs a nerf. Interesting. Oh, I think oh my god. Yeah Everybody in ast here needs a nerf of some kind Really? Either they nerf murdoch or they nerf crit like we were talking about at the very very big before all this started crit is what a 2.5 modifier right now Yeah, I think it's 2.5 with the 25 increase from that one item. I think it's 2.25 before that That's too much. I don't think he needs a nerf. I do think he needs it may be Uh an adjustment to cooldowns Uh and mana cost. I think his q especially is too free. It's too easy It's it doesn't use up much mana at all and you and it's so it's so strong level one I think that's the reason why he's he becomes such a monster Is because he just doesn't lose lane really unless you're really really bad at the game because he just is able to poke The enemy ad carry or support for free with a lot of fucking damage at level one And then his range to to shoot for to kill is I think the longest in the game, right? It's I think his range is the highest of for auto attacks. So he could just farm for free too I don't it's not really it's not even just his q honestly It's his fucking shield bash His fucking shield bash is on such a low cooldown late game that it doesn't matter who you are You will not get close to him that he will he will bop you away and that's just going to be that He'll q you eu whatever it takes after the fact But then by late game you have to have Four people that have dashes and you have to stagger your dashes Otherwise, he'll just bop all of you away at the same time Like it's just absolutely wild how strong he is with that shield bash late game Even twin blast with his dash is very strong But it's not pushing you away right if you you have outplay potential if you show up Right, he dashes away then you use your movement ability to get onto a murdoch You're going to lose no matter what because he's either going to be so far back because of his range that he can He makes you use your movement ability to get close to him By then he just bashes you off and then runs away or you just disengage because you just lost like at that point I agree with auto fang would disagree with you But probably the only one in this of this conversation they can consistently stay sticky on to other people because um That's fang and qang because of fang's q then it is his dash Yeah Because fang dashes in and then hits q and negates the shield bash And that's the only reason he can actually stick to murdoch It's kind of the same with qang you can you can leap in with your sword You get knockback and then you use your dash to go in or if you're really lucky you could dash through the Through the knockback uh kid death brings up though like he's not free though Like you have to have some skill to play murdoch Like you you've got to lay in basics to carry as murdoch I do not think you have to have skill to just play well in lane as murdoch Because i've seen plenty murdochs get fed in lane and then they don't know how to shield bash well And so it's really easy to navigate around them dealing a lot of damage But i think his q is so free that it is practically impossible to do well against a murdoch You might go even but doing well against him is very very rare Well like i was talking about earlier i had that murdoch that fucking Sauntered into mid lane like he fucking owned the place like he was going to just bull me over I was on the fay I fucking killed him twice in like Three minutes So then he switched with twin blast and then i killed the twin blast too It's like so you got to have some skill like He was just so okay. Let me go back to how did you do on counters with murdoch not well not well But That's a different story though count like counters and the murdoch like how she gonna like you try to shadow slip to him He knocks you back. There's not a lot you can do on counters not like you can with fey general She's not she's not exactly my thinking though with the counters was i'll be able to shadow slip those fucking rockets Hey, i'll know Maybe one like i might have been shadow slipping one hit of the rocket But they follow you wherever the fuck you go Even if i shadow slip twice after they were starting to hit i would still get hit by a bunch of fucking bullshit I'm not gonna go so far as saying that he needs like a hard nerf I do think maybe an adjustment to some of his numbers is fine like in as far as mana costs and stuff like that I think his damage is fine For the most part his q damage is probably the worst part of it with it being as strong as it is I do think his knockback is strong Is not it's not quite as strong like a quarter health or quarter mana cost Cast he gets four times at the most and then He has to back it's the same so the problem with that mana buff in the lane Is that if you're playing murdoch you now go get that mana buff every 60 seconds Yeah, and then you just q endlessly do what I would rather see is the damage or the uh The mana for his e is so fucking high I tell people i'm like you don't even level it up until you've leveled everything yourself You're never going to use it efficiently like oh, I could poke somebody who's sitting under tower Maybe at the top people are really good with it though. Some people are really good with it though. Thank you Yeah, but it's no I mean you can be really good with it But you're the more times not you're gonna waste like three or four grenades and all of your mana is going to be gone Just save it farm some minions. Let let the guy go fucking backwards. Who cares Just move on so if you were to swap those two make it the e a little bit more efficient to use and Make the q way more Punishing to use I think we'd be okay. So like an adjustment By the way across the board they need to drop the mana buff in the duo lane I think it needs to be a gold buff that you get that and when you kill minions you get extra gold I think the mana buff in the lane is unhealthy for the types of characters that are benefiting from it right now Maybe spiritual soul says he wants to see everything but do it high elo will I invite you to come watch the get through gaming tournament on a Saturday and sunday We will see a murdoch jungle murdoch is being played in every single lane The amount of messages i've gotten about like you need to play murdoch jungle. It's fucking broken I can see it wild I can see it literally he runs up in lane shield bashes them backwards and what are they gonna do I mean like you you saw jelly I used my flash to secure two kills to get to do the knockback and before they could get on your turret Absolutely, it's very very strong. I'm not saying that it's not Anyway, we're we're taking too long again. Yeah chat chat agrees. He's asked here He's asked here. I really I really don't have any Items that counter him really well No, you just need a flank That's it. Tank items that any items Even then you really have to build all three or four of the good tank items And then he'll still shred you but you'll survive long enough to maybe do something about it Murdoch support would work to cover this lemon knife 100 brush control murdoch support would work And not for painting. Let's move on to rampage Oh Partly due to tank items, but I think he's just super consistent regardless I think he's he's trickier to pick up than people think Um, you know, they think they think you could throw a rock and that's all you need to do to be a good rampage I think that there's more to oh, yeah wants of this kit uh than people who pick him because we've definitely had A rampage who struggles to hit a rock point blank And then he's just standing there getting peppered to death because they don't know what they're doing But I definitely think either high be your or mid to low a Depending on how you build them in and who's piloting him Yeah, I see too many rampages that try and go in from the beginning Whenever when they don't have the tank items and they just get shredded They just get fucking melted the rampages to understand they have to wait a little bit before they could start He's a just boy a table You can use him as for for like, you know to try and secure kills or like if you gank with him It's they I don't know I would even say you don't want to gank with him early unless you are really really good at understanding The cooldowns that you have available to you and the lanes that you're ganking because sometimes I've had them they come in They don't understand. Oh, it's gonna be a 3v2 Yeah, a 3v2 into these two is probably not the one that you want to you're gonna die He's just gonna get if you go into a murdoch in a phase. You're fucked. You're just dead You stay away from my lane. You just stay over there You're just gonna give them and bait my support in and then we're gonna give them free kills The best thing you can do as a rampage early game is walk into the lane throw a rock to stun somebody Scare them backwards off of the wave and then you run back into your jungle and just keep farming Keep farming All you have to do is just throw your pressure out with the rock one time They get scared for a couple seconds They think you might be in a bush that you might still be around Is your team cut time to like kind of regroup or build back up or take more minions or whatever it is And then you're already back to farming in your jungle so you can get to that late game scaling Uh cat for our list a is strong Um, basically fairly safe to blind pick b is more of like not necessarily Underpowered but not quite to the point where you want to blind pick them all the time You might want to depending on matchups. They're they're still effective Or skill if you're very high skilled player, then you might still be able to make them work really well At least that's how I've been approaching it. Um, and then apparently s just means they need to be nerfed Um, that's not how I was looking at s, but that's how the boys started looking at me. Yeah Yeah, kind of I don't think rampage needs to be nerfed I definitely don't think he needs to be nerfed. I don't think he needs to be buffed though either I think he's fine where he is which is why I'm happy to put him Like, you know the middle to bottom of a tier or even at the top of b tier depending on how People feel about him because I think as a as a scaling tank, he becomes so strong Almost impossible to deal with late game. It's really really hard to The thing with rampage that I think too many people are struggling with against him because I've seen him banned Tons of times in competitive matches, which is such a waste of a ban. It's ridiculous Yes, is he effective with his stun? Absolutely Is that going to change the tide of the game? Very rarely in this current environment, right the the one stun. He gets off If your team is doing well, your team will continue to do well even after that stun If your team is already doing poorly that stun isn't going to make the difference Right. Yes. He's annoying because his health pool is so high But great You focus everybody else on his team and force him to run away because he's not going to 1v5 you And then you go take objectives on the map like he's not nearly as annoying as people are saying he is He's very effective at just being a meatball that stands in the middle of damage and soaks up for the rest of his death But past that he is not super crazy effective I think a lot of it comes down to that probably the the average player Their games are probably going longer And that's why I think he becomes that annoyance is if you get to him to 30 minutes and he's got four items You there's not much you can do with him You you're not going to kill him, but you don't need to focus him either Like at that point like I said, he's annoying damage starts to get pretty good man He can start his damage is garbage when you're Running against a mid lane and then probably 280 C's his damage is so little in jelly knees. I'm a top 100 north american player Okay, I've seen some of these I'm a top 40 north american players. So let's talk about this All right, where are we putting them? Let's just lose Looks like chat is pretty much our own board for a I'm on board for a I don't think he needs a nerf Um, I think he requires some skill to play like s tier for me like requires just only a little bit of skill and Kind of needs a nerf. Yeah Um, yeah rampage requires some skill You can't I've seen too many bad rampages to give him s tier like I'm not afraid whenever I see a rampage nope Oh idiot Oh poor guy c tier Honestly, there's an I would that I would almost put a d tier. I would put a d tier to be honest I've seen a good gideon A good I've seen one good gideon Uh-huh It's just but it took him like 10 and zero to become good Like he's yeah only good because he somehow managed to get it several kills early in the game like he's sweet He's got an aoe ultimate that he stands still in the middle of the air and everybody just chunks him out His his q damage can become insane. He can assassinate people with it, right? It's just Everything else his ultimate is pointless. I'm almost sad when I see somebody because I've literally Stood inside of the full ultimate auto attacking a guy and I'm just like you you are taking more damage Standing still with your ultimate than I am sitting in your ultimate like It's It's that bad for him He needs a buff and which I hate to say because I am so tired of seeing gideon because of fault Like every fucking match had a gideon in it. So I'm actually kind of happy that in this test He sucks so we can get some spicy picks going on on the rest of the map because I just did not want I don't want to see him I want to see him even though his skin is super fucking cool that gadget skin whatever he's the Whatever the chrono shinobi sound yeah that whatever it is. It's fucking cool looking is it's really cool Iggy and scorch is not are not in the game yet. No, um, yeah, no, it's It's gideon's probably the worst character in the game in a current standing Yeah, he's not he's not that bad Like he is but like he is though like what he is though every time I see a gideon on my team I feel like we're about to lose because he's just not bad Like he doesn't he doesn't do almost anything well if he's going even Right in the majority of games where you're theoretically skill matched You're going to go even the majority of the time if he's going even he is the The tenth player on the list of damage at that point supports out damage him Like he will just lose to everything under the sun Because his damage isn't that good the scaling isn't that great his ultimate's worthless He's going to die every time he ults if with any kind of competence team on the other side He just loses every time I think one maybe small adjustment with the way he is currently They don't want to like give him too much like a damage increase Is make him invulnerable during his ultimate. That would be the only thing that I think I would Give him a big shield or something. I don't know those lines like the more people he catches He gets more shield, but even then because you can get stunned out of it And then it's just a wasted cooldown. It sucks And you're now gonna you're gonna fall so unlike unlike Unlike with with uh howitzer when you use his ultimate if you somehow get stunned out of it You're so you're able to still move out of the way because you can move your your mobiles still while in there Or is it forgetting? He gets stunned out when he's falling right into the because you He's literally falling into the middle of everyone like well, I guess I'm just just I'm dead here Fuck me. Why did I do this? Why did I hit er into these guys because fuck stupid? Yeah, real invulnerable. That's real easy said it like um the Like a suction cup rock thing like that's this combo But yeah, they increased The the cooldown on that suction cup So much that you can rarely use it like Can't use it Gadget can launch three Mines that are guaranteed to hit in the time it takes you to use gideon's whole combo So like why would you ever play gideon when you could just play gadget? Do the same amount of damage with with with an ultimate but be safe while doing it I think or what if they use he could throw his ultimate out instead of having it be him at the center of it I don't think that necessarily makes him better. Yeah pull on the ultimate the the is so meaningless You can almost run out of it. Yeah, basically everybody gets out of his his ultimate if they don't have a stun They can blink out or they have a dash and they can just get out Like it's just so meaningless because most of the time he's doing it and you're this far from the edge anyway So it just it just is terrible His one saving grace is his ultimate is just a straight cylinder down like there's no Yeah, 100% like so if you can jump off of the top of something Teleport up and use his ultimate you're hitting everybody and nobody can hit you but rampage rampage would be the About the only one that could actually hit you the best gideon ult I've seen so far in this test is a howitzer ulted And was trying to get away He ulted to get up and then so he could fly over and out of out of the way My gideon blinked and then dashed vertically to be on the same plane as howitzer and then so how After his Down and I killed howitzer that was the best gideon Stupid niche use case. It's ridiculous It's sad. I hate to do this because he was so fucking good. He was busted in the last beta test. Yep But uh chat seems to agree that he is d tier He needs some help my boy needs some help He needs a lot of something. I do think he's redeemable though. I just oh definitely I just don't know what other than just adjust numbers, right? But just make his damage higher I don't know if that's what it is. I think there's more utility to him in some capacity Yeah, I think the poll on his ultimate also needs to be way stronger I think the damage on his ultimate needs to be way well that the damage is nothing It means I'm literally I'm not even like a fed character and I'm sitting in the middle of it just auto attacking I'm doing more damage to him than he's doing to me. I'm not even trying to get out of it I'm like you're just standing still like Uh, honestly that may have actually been soul reaper on gideon Honestly, that's awesome. That's fair Oh feng mao A lot of people are saying he's s tier I'm gonna I'm gonna leave it up to you guys. I know he's banned a lot I know he's strong as fuck. I know I hate playing against him So for me the four bands that are always on top of mind for every game are murdoch twin blast feng mao and gadget Those four are the things that I'm most concerned about in every single game because Well, I've played against bad feng maos. There is a point in his itemization. He is unkillable I've played so many games as feng mao We're all last an entire team fight sit and all the damage everything and I'll walk out with half health Like and these guys have seen me do it like it's just ridiculous and his damage is not Small like he does still a good amount of damage while building tank. Yeah 4k health Build bruiser items on him. He's got an execute with his ultimate and that execute is very strong Yeah, that's probably one of the best things about him his cube negating an ability cast absolutely broken His dash being an actual blink so he can go up and over one ways is again very very strong Yep, but his e slowing and being a full 360 He is and I'll say this and I'll get into it better later He's a better zina in every way like he just is absolutely insane in what he can do and I think he's s tier No question. Yep. He's one of the very very few melee heroes that can deal with a really good murdoch in lane Yep, and like awfully murdoch or twin blasts or whatever Dealt with the adcs that are 20 and 0 is when I've been playing feng mao Because I can itemize and then my abilities help me get in there deal damage and then execute them as quickly as possible And with his ultimate having to execute you really don't have to build that much damage because you're just always going to execute Unless you've missed your ultimate and then you look like oh, yeah, let me that It's so hard to aim. It's so hard to aim And you once you've cast it you can't change it mid Like well, why once you've done the wind up it's going the direction you picked. It is what it is You're done. So if they just go, oh, you went up in there. I'm gonna step left a little bit You just missed it's it's not As weird as it is to say They need to fix that Like I don't think that that they need to nerf him in other ways but not through the ultimate not being able to be aimed I think that the ultimate should be able to be aimed throughout its entire animation until he wraps it down personally Because it's already hard enough to hit. That's just it is. I so I hate it. I hate the fact you can't aim it If you get a handful of games on him, it's really easy. Like it's it's fast enough Yeah, if you're if you even slightly lead your target, you're gonna hit it nine times out of 10 I I hate it. I would love because I would love free executes all day long I think for now that's like the one thing he has that keeps him kind of in check Is that he has to actually land the ability Um, I think the other part is too is there's really not a lot of counterplay for him There's not really much you can do to You're not gonna stun him typically long enough if you didn't immune you're trying to stun him in the first place He's because he will just he just has too many things. He's he's too strong. I think he does everything He does everything like and with tank items being as strong as they are That's even pushed to 11 because because of that. Yep All right, uh, I guess the question is we're in s tier Is he above phase and gadget under the casters, but above everybody else? Okay So exactly we're uploaded. Oh, I don't know. Yeah, I guess he is still above murdoch. Okay That's tough. I think murdoch's really fucking strong Actually, man, I'm I'm really thinking he might be stronger than phase I think the benefit to phase is she can blind him She doesn't she doesn't catch that's pretty split between s and a tier What? Yeah, I'm kind of surprised by that He's just straight. So you just straight solid s tier to me The only reason why I can think that they would think that is because they've gotten into a game Where somebody who doesn't know how to play a thing now because this is the thing I will say I think his skill ceiling is really high and his floor is decently high Especially as a melee character. So if you don't know how to Manage his kit you're you're probably going to get exposed. So I'm with I'm with pilgrim on this one people saying a have not played against a decent one Right against the on thing now. I guarantee you you'll change your tune. Like it's that's all I think Yeah, I think in the hands of you a big male a few games on him He he's oppressive. Yeah, he's almost impossible to deal with um Bruxy poo Solid yeah, I think solid a very strong in the right hands in the right matchups But I don't think he's s tier, but I don't think he needs anything either I think he's just a good knees really well And I'll ask that. Yeah. Yeah, he's just never a bad pick No good in off lane and in jungle, but I think he's best in jungle personally. Yeah, bruzder tank item is really helpful for him Yep I think what's going to happen is if a thing now gets banned then rocks would be the would be the pick up if you wanted That thing now I should type hero uh, let me do the uh I mean chimera kind of fails in solo lane Especially if he's up against a range I think I'm so part of that though. I think is that chimera Struggles against anything when he's not maxing his heal first That heal scales insanely well Right that basically at level seven or eight. He can have a 40 health per second heal That's wild. Yeah I'll really I'll really enjoy him and his new skin is fucking bad ass. Oh dude It's the coolest fucking skin in the game rocks or whatever it is. Yeah insane. I think it's the coolest skin in the game right now Um, any counter pick items for grocks that you guys can think of Or any good items that are really good on grocks On grocks tanker and lifesteal Yeah, vamp sword very strong vamp sword very strong item on basically any melee character. Yeah Um giving you lifesteal AOE clear potential and health. Yep all very very strong The only mistake I see any I ever seen anybody do with grocks is they Initiate with both their dash and their pull and it's like No, if they blink, what are you gonna do now, buddy? Like Like why did you just do that? Like I can sometimes see the dash. I can sometimes see the pull never both together I use I use them both together in lane if somebody is has dashed away from me and I want to catch them Yeah, but I don't like initiate with it a lot of grocks is as well need to be willing to dash behind somebody Knowing that they're probably going to try and blink away from you Yep Because then you're already halfway there to their blink distance and then you pull them back and then alt clap your sticks together and call it today You love chi solo. Absolutely not it can work I mean anything can work if you're good at it You know what I mean, but I don't think I think the average player trying to play chi solo against Again a murdoch that our murdoch are to him like because that's what that's what we're talking about We're the meta right now is two adcs one of the off lane and one in the uh duo lane She's free if you get the wraith in mid Any carry like I do know that you can have all Carries and do just fine like they use are so strong Yeah, pilgrim brings up a great thing about over prime as well, though Is that you can jump and pull at the same time you gain that next for a couple feet of distance With that jump and so and then covetous lemon travel mode jump into your pull. Yep wild Yep, you don't get extra distance for free. You don't get uh animation locked You're you're still moving while it's going off 100 which is great And I like it. I don't want them to remove that. I think that if they're going to do any adjustments Yeah, they need to get rid of they do not get and get rid of that all right Severog I don't see a lot of serve. I don't think he's bad I don't either but I I wouldn't I put him in a tier honestly still I put him with rampage I think he does the same things that rampage does Just in a different way and has the same viability With that actually he does a lot more damage than rampage does With being able to do the same things that rampage can do. I don't understand why I don't see more severogs I think people are intimidated by his stacking. I feel like so so solo lane sev into a adc Is going to be really difficult sucks yourself I played jungle severog And the stacking in the jungle is rough Like you get to the point where you can do it pretty well But those early levels because jungle camps health bar is not really clear of how much health they have left It makes it really difficult to get your stacks on those low minions And you just eat a lot of damage waiting for your q to come back up. But I think he's consistently As tanky or tankier than rampage has just as much cc to offer And then also just as much damage and then you throw the tank items on top of that And he's just absolutely wild and unkillable I have a minute high b. I don't have him quite into a I think he could have a little bit of help I think his q getting the same execute as the autos would help a lot So for lane because you in level one The the execute that you get for if you were to just swing your axe instead of trying to get your stack Doesn't always work. You will do less damage than your swing And so you almost have to have like two or three Cues before you can Level into your q before you can start one-shotting range Minions and stuff like that to be able to get your stacks efficiently. Um, and so the early game is is just Really really tough especially if you're going into a range But even if you're not some of the other carries just do a better job than you and so they're going to ramp up And so by the time you catch up the game might be over. So you really I think jungle's probably still the best place just because you can guarantee for the most part that you're going to get your qs But I think they need to give him a little bit of help with his q Everything else is good. Nisha's rampage in that regard like early game kind of terrible But gets one or two items in him and then we'll just scale to the end game without any issue Especially even more southern rampage because those q stacks are endless, right? Yeah I I think he's beat here because I think he's heavily dependent on skill of the player Yes, that that factors heavily into if he's good or not Um, and he's heavily dependent on the length of the game if the game Is too short if it's too much of a role then he's just never going to get there to where he is dangerous But once he gets dangerous, he's real fucking dangerous. Like I would rather go against a fully itemized rampage than a fully itemized severog Like a full build You know what I mean And that's well, so if you're saying you'd rather go against fully itemized rampage Then putting seven beats here feels bad because rampage is an eight tier And we've got the same things about needing to see how many how many times do people reach full build in this game? Not often Not often I I see the only thing that scares me about like an end and end games Sev is his ability to be able to disrupt in a teamfight There's as officially as he does like the the dash in are If done well is devastating But so often It just doesn't work that way with the amount of blinks that people have the movement abilities that people have You might think you're gonna get in there do the 180 hit your r and then you do but they get sent Like you know at a 20 degree angle It's got a big little giant root. The root is really that's why I'm saying I think he just needs help on his queue Everything else about his kit. I think is fine If his queue executed minions like it like a melee does I think that we you would be fine But since it doesn't it feels bad, especially early Oh, so we're pretty we're pretty split between a b and s Nobody's saying c tier Uh, I think um b tier high b you and I both say b jelly says a um very small majority says a for Well, I'm put him at the bottom of a behind muriel for now. I think he's that's fine I think if we if we have to move anybody to make room, we're gonna be moving seven. I think down to b We'll keep him in a for now Uh bellica I think bellica is just the definition of b tier She's fine Other other characters do her job better. She is one of the biggest examples of skill dependency on a character right now I think a good bellica will destroy a game A bad bellica will feed her ass off And it's there is like no difference between the two or there's no there's no middle ground between the two Yeah Um, she's nice because she does bring that extra stun to the team. It does travel through walls the mana drone uh Mid lane match up if if you're up against a countess or a shinby or or anybody that Doesn't have a ranged basic. They're fucked. Um I think she's Like I said, I think she's fine. I don't think she's fine There there's she's exceptionally bad like like gideon right now. I don't think she's Nearly to the level is gadget and phase for mid laners. She makes a decent off laner. She makes a decent support She's fine. I think she's being I should probably do this Probably do the poll for bellica here See to me, I think bellica So where you guys are saying she's fine and she's I'm potentially high b She kind of falls in that same severed range for me of that She's low a but would drop off in an instant like if if push came to shove right like that she The people that are in b tier right now being the fey and sarith I think needs some kind of love Even if it's just a rebalance not necessarily a hard buff but a rebalance of some kind to make them viable in more situations Where the a tiers I think are where I don't think bellica needs the rebalance. I don't think she needs more damage I don't think she needs a buff of any kind necessarily. She's certainly not strong enough to need a nerf Right like I would put her at that very high be very low a tier Where she is in that weird limbo that you guys were kind of saying with severog too Yeah, I I'm not gonna argue too hard with you on that one. I think she's she's fine I don't think she's the thing is is you if you blind pick her. I still think that there's other There's matchups in which she can be punished for being picked over somebody else like If you're just a really good bellica player, then yeah, absolutely You're gonna be able to do things that other players aren't but if we're just talking about across the board generic players I would much rather see Almost any other support Or mid laner than bellica not that she can't be used I just would be happier to see somebody else because I think someone else is going to be more useful Something that like a big change between the last beta test And this beta test is the damage of her ultimate Her ultimate used to be like if you were a mid lane mage, you were like, oh god, I use some mana now I'm dead. You know and now it's like It just tickles. It just doesn't do nearly as much damage as it used to But yeah, um It seems like pretty much everybody agrees that she is a b tier hero I don't think there's anything very fine. I agree. She's She's happy. Yeah Okay, so we'll keep bellica be moving on to jelly's girl Is she still your girl? Yeah, she is She is right like I'm never going to go wrong playing kalari Uh, this is a hard one for me. Honestly I Think kalari is probably one of the worst junglers in the game right now Bold words coming from jelly a kalari fan That's really strong words. I'm surprised you say that hot take coming out of jelly Kwon kwon isn't the best off laner, but he can jungle too So I would call kwon worse than her, but I wouldn't call kwon a jungler Right like in terms of dedicated junglers. I think kalari is the worst I don't say that saying that she's bad necessarily But I think the and then we kind of talked about this on ftm this week as well I think the issue with kalari is that she wants to be A melee assassin. Mm-hmm. But itemization says no And so she's stuck in this weird limbo of needing to play either a crit build or a bruiser build And it's just kind of meh like it just Is just meh like it just it never feels when you're going crit and you're popping off feels really good But that's usually because you're fed and so your damage is just through the roof because you've got four items in 15 minutes Right like but if she's ever going even or behind She really struggles because there's just nothing there for her. She can't blow up carries Especially especially when you're looking at murdoch or twin blasts. She can't blow them up instantaneously Which is kind of what she wants to do Which she can't basic attack enough to be effective Right her ultimate maybe you catch two people, but very rarely you're going to catch one And if you're off by even a sliver, you're not even going to get the stun on it You're just going to deal damage in that location Right. They usually will stun you out of it. They like it just Everything about it. I also I I do think there is an issue with her her dagger into roots doesn't seem to work consistently That I've hit plenty of daggers and then pressed e And it won't root and then sometimes it feels like maybe it was a timing thing But I'll throw a dagger later wait like five seconds to press my e and then it'll still root them And I'm like, whoa, wait a second. I think there's inconsistency there which doesn't help I I would put her in the b tier honestly almost c tier like I I think I am I wasn't I wasn't expecting this That's that I think that's I mean you play a lot more calari than I do but I've played in a lot of games with a calari and I think She's easily one of the scariest junglers to get cued in So really she how many of those now I disagree with that but how many of those games did people actually buy wards Well that I mean granted buying a ward helps a lot right like that That's a big thing But in solo queue environment trying to convince everybody that they need to buy wards It's fairly difficult outside of the support who just naturally gets them if they're even throwing them down though. Anyway Her ability to impact the lanes I think is the highest of any of the junglers on Because she the invisibility Like the only chimera is the only other one that I think is is is comparable I think those are the two that have the most Direct impact especially early lane I that's just how I feel dude. I just see her pop off all the time. I think that she her numbers are damage numbers That's the calari thing I think that is completely a lack of your team paying attention to what's going on in the game If she has even an ounce of Site on the mini map calari will not get ahead in that game I think she it's the opposite problem so far dude. She can dash she she has a Stunned dude. She her damage is insane. I am not afraid when I see a calari on the enemy team I don't think she's I don't think she's bad I'm but I am not afraid of a calari like I'm happy to see a calari on the enemy team The thing with calari is she will she's kind of the opposite of sever auger rampage She will get off to a really fast Hardcore start and get up and kills really quick And then late game when the team is actually sticking together She has to select one person and she's all in now like she can't just You know all in back flip away even then won't even get that kill She a lot of time jabs will look ill unless she is fed out of her mind I don't know I I don't I think she's a I think she's real easy. He's losing his mind right now I'm I'm blown away that you think that she might be borderline c tier that that that actually baffles me I mean if you would have said like I think she's like a solid b like high b and then maybe I'd be more She's still I think she's very strong. I don't think that she's it should be thrown in the You think she needs a buff 100 if you put 100% I what would you buff on her? Her ultimate she needs more damage She needs what she honestly what she really needs is she needs that explosion After her right-click dagger throw again You because they do imagine a kalari with more fucking damage, bro Listen to this guy right now talking, you know, this is how you know that this guy plays jungle all the time And then kalari is one of his favorite people because you this is how he's thinking. He's like, oh, she doesn't do enough damage I need her more. No any damage. It's most of 20 minutes. No, you so you're thinking about a fed kalari This is not that's not what this is It's it's cake. Look for most of the time for her to get in. So no, it's all of you. Do she get absolutely not You're thinking about a fed kalari. I am because they happen all the time the amount of fed kalaris don't happen all the time Absolutely not. They do this is fun. This is fun watching you two go at it She's a good low elo climber. Yeah, she because she that's exactly it So if you in high elo, she might just fall off But that's like that's the same argument that we have with master ye Master ye does not need a buff. Why because he's he's so so strong at picking off people who don't understand who master ye is That's it. So we're good at that But in that no she is though because she can she can solo almost anyone No, she cannot. Oh my god. If she's got absolutely cannot solo Let's just move on then. I have her at an a tier. What is chat saying? What do you guys think? I have her in a tier I'd definitely be tier. I'm not afraid of a kalari whatsoever When I'm playing support and I see a kalari on the enemy team I'm like, thank god I only have to stun her once as opposed to like a thing now or a grucks or something I'm like, I'm going to have to stun that motherfucker eight times before my adc can get away And I'm going to have to cage him and everything. Kalari. I just stun him once my adc kills her moving on Yep, and you can hear her footsteps when she's in stealth exactly. So reward a fucking kalari main asking for buffs lol All right, let's end the poll. Let's see what everybody says Jesus Uh b tier is is the winners at 42 percent. So we'll keep kalari at b tier. I'll tell you what we'll put her at high b tier just for just for jedi It's not like it was a stomp 36 on 33 votes. Is it still a lot of people? Oh, yeah, I just don't think she's that scary man. Um, okay from a mid laner support Perspective as a mid laner. I just kill her constantly all the goddamn time As the other jungler does what she does better Yeah, and as a support I just stun her once and my team kills her by by far the worst jungler by long I think there's some psychology there too because everybody hates kalari so much That when you do stun her a lot of times if you stun somebody people will ignore it If you stun a kalari, everybody jumps in on that action. Maybe they're like, yeah, fuck that kalari Cheap ass kalari a killer. All right sparrow I think sparrow as again just fine I think eight here 100 percent Eight on par with revenant in a different way I think a sparrow late game is scarier than any of the other adcs But sparrows rarely make it to late game Because at that point the murdoch or the twin blast have popped up so hard that it's ridiculous Hmm. I think she's high or low a I've changed my opinion. Like I thought she was fucking s tier at first But after playing around for a while I don't know if they're just more skill needed for her or what But I think she's just she's she's a great carry. She's fine. Yeah. Hmm. She's gonna pick up great She's very very sharp with items. She will dominate late game Purely because of her ultimate being able to spread across multiple targets No, it doesn't look like you have to get any melee range for it to work Right. That's the other thing that what other carries can't do is they can't multi target people and she can and late game with items It'll shred and he even tanks everything. I mean think about that game that I was on sparrow I was down three deaths early game and then came back to be like 16 and 5 by the end of the game Purely because it just I got to be late game sparrow at that point. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think sparrow is heavily dependent on a good support Mm-hmm. Yes And a not good enemy ADC Either or rather, I think it's If they're bad, you can do well on sparrow. If your support's good, you can do well on sparrow Shout out to autistic Karen. I think was the name of the person I was playing sparrow and I was playing decker and uh, yeah, we wrecked we wrecked I'd be tearful a tear That's whatever um Make make he make he's uh, I can't say your name. It's just uh sparrow be even see Hmm I would not put her in c tier. I wouldn't put her in calari Oh, I feel like you're saying that just to piss me off now Yeah Uh in poll looks like everybody says a tier Uh, I would prefer to put her in b tier myself, but I'll put her in a tier Like I said, I'm fine with the low a like a minus b plus But uh, if chat thinks it's an a I think we're at the bottom of the head though Crit damage would disagree with any adc in b tier. Yeah, that's a big thing This is so strong that it she will be effective as long as you know how to Get along in the direction Man, I thought kwang was going to be an absolute fucking animal You guys were hard on kwang when we oh, I thought he was good. I thought he was going to be so good I think he is good, but he's not fucking An overpowered monster like I thought he was going to be This guy right here I think he fit in that tier with howitzer where a good kwang is s tier But otherwise he's just a good a tier I don't even think he's a good a tier and if you if you pick him and you don't know what you're doing I think you're you're basically he requires a lot of fucking skill a lot of fucking skill to play I think he's a Maybe b tier like I honestly I think he's not that good at all unless you were insane with him And that's what I said when he saw his kit I was like bro This guy is going to be very very very hard for people to play It's not going to be as quick and easy as we were as you guys were thinking because he has a knock up And a and a knock down on his left click. No, dude. This guy sucks His poke damage is as a joke No You have to you have to be like not playing with your monitor on to lose to him and lean Mackey, that's a deep cut man. It was a deep cut I think he's I don't think he's that good at all. Oh, man. I forgot I made that joke fucking all those years ago Oh, shit. All right. What I think well like a lot of people are saying he's just kind of clucky to play um When I played him I didn't like that you have to stop all the time Yeah Like that fourth swing down seems so good But you like in this game you got to be chasing people constantly chasing running and moving and fighting And having to stop to do that downward swing just fucking stops you from catching up and chasing um, he's very buggy of A lot of people as soon as you Use his cue You just auto teleport to a sword for some reason Like even if you didn't mean to um Yeah, coveness lemon his fourth basic makes you stand still exactly. It's He's just kind of clunky, man I think he could again probably fucking insane in the right hands Like his kit like on paper looks so fucking good. Awesome. Yeah, but just it's just every everything makes him stand still and fucking yeah So I agree with uh makey zug I think Part of it is that there hasn't been enough time to learn how to play quang wel This is what happened when he released in paragon too when he released in paragon He was kind of underwhelming and then the first couple players that started to get really good on him Showed that that guy's a monster. Yeah, and then I had to be nerfed accordingly And I think quang fits in solidly in a tier for that reason is I don't think he's underpowered by any stretch of the imagination I think he's better than everybody in the b tier But he's gonna take some serious play time to get to that highest here if he like I said again like how it's Right where like a really good quang will be s tier and dominate the game. Okay, make it You're right. His e has iframes supposedly That they need this is an example of solely needs to do some work here because his e does not always have iframes I've seen him get I've stunned quangs in his e before and like I I think even if they fix some of the the jinkiness like that they smooth his kit out I still don't think that most people are going to be operating him at an s tier level Because I think if we are going that route then almost every a tier can be operated an s tier level Like that's that's that's the nature of most mobs, right? It wants a skill it has if you have a skill ceiling that people can reach it towards Then then they're going to be really strong. I that's why I put him in a b I think because his kit is so difficult for people to be able to learn and it's in it right and you add in the bugs I just feel like he's just not very effective. I in solo lane. I'm I He doesn't matter. I'm just he's just free gold waiting for my cooldowns Yeah, any hero can feel like s tier in the right hands. You know what I mean? I think so that gideon can be s tier in the right hand somebody that just only plays gideon Yeah, no, I don't know about that. I think I think never feel s tier I know I think my my approach to this tier list is that if we as an audience if I if people were to say like Oh ftm put together a tier list and they look at it. I want them to be able to see like, okay If I pick this champion, I'm going to be okay Like I'm going to be able to to let like, you know to be able to play this game And and do and pick this champion and do all right So like s tier those guys are obviously broken And those are the ones that you almost always either want to ban or pick a tier or solid picks regardless That's how I envision it and I would tell anybody play anybody by him right now Like just pick a different character because you're just not going to do as well as you think you are on him It's just not he doesn't work. You got to put in some work with kwang before you're going to get good And even then it might not to be enough I don't know what about my girl shinbi Poor shinbi the the the the circle rhythm Healing nerf removal Hurts it hurts a lot She's so fun to play though. She is she's a ton of fun to play She's so fun And I think that mess is with my ranking on her because I have her in b tier I think she needs a little bit of help not a lot. I think she doesn't need something I don't know quite what it is But if she gets off the ground if she gets some items under her belt early She is a beast dude. She is so fun and strong and slippery. She has so many Ways of chasing people down or getting away or being able to maneuver in team fights that you're not expecting She can be A force to be reckoned with you know what I mean, but if she gets shut down or she's slow to get off the ground She just it's she just sucks She's not strong enough for how much you had because she's supposed to be an assassin and she doesn't really assassinate I think come to the limit You hit the nail the head once again. Why give movement speed on her circle when she has a double dash already Like what's this does that make? Yeah Um, I think b tier personally I think because I've been very successful Here's the thing she's item dependent which always sucks It always sucks if you have a character that's item item dependent and she's item dependent She has to have archons gospel to give her the healing back on her cue to do what she does best Which is to stick the people in a team fight heal through any damage they deal to her and then you know fade away ultimate And her wolves are just very hard to hit because they don't It's actually kind of a nerf to the wolves that they don't just follow along the ground It's cool that you could throw them up in the air now But when they fall fall it along the ground. It was a lot easier to hit with Yep. Oh, I think she's b tier. I love playing her like again I think and she was so fun Well off lane, I think she's Lane you can chase down you can actually get the full usage of her kid I think she's good in the jungle. She's good in the off lane not so great in the mid lane um But yeah better in the jungle if she had better item opt as a optimization for the jungle. Yeah Um, the soul reapers right to the dash sending you airborne and so because you stop in the middle of the air You don't carry forward with me Yeah fall down didn't fall down So weird I think that's probably going to be it for my girl shimmy Let me in the poll and see what everybody had to say. It looked like everybody was voting b I would like to say that all of the reasons you guys just applied are the same reasons why kalari is bad And she has less chase potential than shinby does we've already moved on jelly knees. I'm just telling you man Her dash. I don't want her dash to follow geometry. I just wanted to Have some momentum some inertia to it. Yes Her dash does follow geometry. You can't dash vertically with her dash No, but if you dash off the side of something You dash through the air Okay And once you reach the length of the end of the dash, she just stops in the middle of the air and falls down straight Yeah, but really weird. Yeah, I mean I guess And count us I think count us is another one that's great in the In the right hands with enough skill, but for the most part she's just kind of fine again A lot a lot of people jungle with her They'll see too many don't jungle with her. I've seen some successful ones, but not many I think the the biggest shining part for her is her anti heal on her e I think people don't realize how strong it can be It's because it's it's wide and it goes further than I think people think it does And in a teamfight if you're able to get that across like, you know a few People and you're cutting their healing. It's really really strong I think that she suffers with the same thing that a lot of the assassins suffer with Which is a little bit of glitchiness You try to like do your full combo and and for some reason your r won't go through Even if you have quick cast on and stuff like that. So it does It does feel bad that I've noticed that where it's like people will go in Try to do their combo and something about it won't have gone off I think man goes you had one where you're eating go off for whatever reason It's like you can oh god. You heard me fucking screaming. I was so mad I think because I was I was against that murdoch mid and I was finally finally got to kill him And for some reason my e just did not go Yeah, I I think he or she's strong. I would put her in high b I don't think she's quite a unfortunately I think I don't know what help she needs but she needs some help to be Because she just doesn't have quite the assassination power that I then I think But the funny thing is she's the only actual assassin in the game. Yeah I don't know It's rough though with with countess because You give her just the slightest nudge and all of a sudden she's just fucking demolishing teams, you know what I mean Like it's very hard to balance count countess. I think right now. She's balanced I think she's in a good place right now. I if you're good with countess, you're going to do well with her I think she's a very good counter pick and that's when you would pick her which is all countess has ever been Especially in the the mid lane heroes we have in paragon For the most part are very anti countess, right? But when countess is in the right match up she will Yeah Um, she's a very good match up against uh gadget if you can time your shadow slips well Yep, I think she works really hard to do because she's able to jump in and poke against the other melee's Um, she can be surprisingly Annoying to deal with out there Yeah, I would be I would be wary of giving her a but any kind of buff though because Like I said the smallest nodule countess And that's why I say I don't know if it's like she's just suffering from the the CVT bugs that are kind of rampant right now Like and that's part of the reason why she sometimes just doesn't feel as good as some of the other ones I think also she's suffering because the other mages are just that much stronger than her And if they were a little bit weaker or more susceptible to her Her strengths and it maybe wouldn't be that bad. So I I still have her like I said high or low a high b If gadget would occasionally actually miss her cue so that I didn't have to use shadows slip to dodge cues Gadgets cues every single fucking time. I agree pilgrim portals make her offline so fun. Yeah Uh, so chat says b tier we all I think we all say b tier maybe for sure. Yeah Uh, so next up is steel. I think I think steel is very underutilized 100 but he was last test too. Yep I think steel is probably high a tier And and there are arguments that I could see steel and s tier. Yeah the same here same here I think a tier for sure. I don't know about s tier only because I think his uh, right click not doing a stun and it does a slow It's a little bit of a bummer But yeah, that's throwing a lot of people off and I think that's people making people undervalue the rest of his kit Just because his bulk doesn't stun, you know, you is probably one of the best ccs in the game Yeah Or his e might be one of the best ccs and deny ability not deny like zone denial Dude, how many times have we had a steal on the enemy team? He throws up his e and we're like, okay. Well Might as well just leave. Yeah, we're not gonna do anything for however long that thing is up Because you're not gonna walk past it You're gonna just sit there and wait for it to go away and they're either disengaging or now they have all their cooldowns back up And you're fucked There's a reason like so steel can be pushed into the s tier for me Is that in our current meta of ranged characters in every lane? Steel wins like he just benefits from that non-stop because if they walk past this shield, he ults They then he right clicks to slow them down and then queues them and knocks them back into the air And then by then if you have even a remotely competent team You win Like it just his cc is forever He's good support good in the jungle good off lane. Yep. Yep. Um, yeah I think you just all structure and I keep talking about people that I'm scared of Whenever I see them come into my lane steel is number one fucking for that because Like everybody's scared of his ultimate like his ultimate is so fucking disruptive so strong And then you get the pile on a bunch of cc on top of that And then you have the tank items on top of that Yeah, just unkillable late game just like rampage just like severog He just has more cc than they do I do want to say this boys We've been talking for about two hours and chat has been sticking through this and being super active And has it been two hours? We started streaming two hours ago. I want to say first of all I didn't realize it had been two hours until I looked at it And I just want to talk to chat for a second say thank you guys for sticking it out this long I wouldn't have blamed anyone for me and I these guys are just waffling about for too long Thank you for sticking it out. Uh, hopefully you're enjoying it. It's fucking cool. Yeah, I agree um Okay, yeah, so it's twin blasts the old is it a I think so. I mean Yes, yes What's up, dude 100% s On par with murdoch in a different way Exactly He does the things that murdoch doesn't do it But the things he doesn't do are so good that he's a very good Counter part to him. I actually I think that they are one for one Like you can have either one and you're in you're fine They can go up against each other and it's going to be a skill match up on who wins because of the way that their kits Kind of I've seen a lot more successful mid lane twin blasts as well Because it's a ability to dash in and then get a burst of damage off really quickly or or walk in burst of damage and dash Straight back out. He can trade with mid laners really really consistently Ranger and john will never let twin blasts be shit. Yeah 100% agree with that too It's well and so many people don't Know that his e resets his q grenade. So you get another grenade So you get have up to three already in pocket start using your grenades dash Whatever way you want to and then throw another q out it is in Fucking it did burst damage is better than any other adc And then this ultimate not only one of the coolest animations of ultimates, but it's pretty fucking insane But do you know who counters it fucking steal? Yeah Um, plus like you can sprint jump and then use his dash and it goes for fucking ever And then his grenades a lot of people um, if you put that on quick cast you can just Bam bam bam. Yeah, those grenades just on the button and it works. Oh really no shit not know that Yeah, I was when I was playing him the other day. I accidentally just held it down and all three Bubba, but I was like, oh, I did not know that that's actually that could be that unloads a lot of damage Really fucking fast tended. I don't know that's wild though quick cast things man quick cast things I'm so glad they had a quick cast that'll play twin blast nades Dash more nades shoot. Yeah 100 percent. It's and he's he's viable in so many ways like I mean me I'm maybe not jungle, but like you can put him Offlane he's still insane to deal with he's just so safe like he has a dash. He's just yeah No, he's broken. Yeah, that's that that's the other problem like, you know Murdoch's got his buckshot to knock that melee character away to a lot just dashes back and then starts fucking unloading order I mean and like that's what jelly was saying. It's like they just do they do very similar things Different to each other, but it's like the same concept You're either using his e as a disengage to be able to get away It's similar as you would use this the blast to knock somebody away Or you're using it as a way to secure kills once you're not really doing that with uh, It was with um murdoch so much, but you have other things that help with that. I don't know And that's so likely it is him being able to be versatile in that he can use it as a disengage or an engage Is what makes him slightly better than murdoch in my opinion is that versatility of either way Yeah, and he's hyper scaling motherfucker dude. His attack speed is the highest in the game. I think it's 2.5 Put some attack speed and create on him and you are shredding through people The only thing that he struggles with again is uh tanks because if you're Building him with the tank items his is attack speed so slow. It's not really that great Um, and you don't get the benefit of the damage that comes from his cues as much Because they don't scale that well. Oh no, there's little boxes next to your abilities if you check them It sets it to quick cast Yep, we just blew Otis mind Got it. So anyway, I started blasting All right, so twin blast definitely Sean's just here for us to yell at each other as tier Dive you we'll get back into kalari, dude. How long is it? 21st sunday sunday sunday sunday And then early access december 1st or december 8th 8th. So like what two and a half weeks after i ended the What about uh talk about that on fcm? What about chimera? Hey a borderline s tier for me personally For what? What you're on crack? Are you out of your fucking mind? And listen, I just said me. Okay, you guys say what you want to say No, you can say whatever you want to say, but I could also act like you're a crazy man for saying it You're on crack. Yeah chimera B tier at the at the worst Chimera doesn't do anything better than the other junglers except for kalari. He's better than kalari Because his ultimate is actually consistent He's a right click is really decently strong Um his ability to jungle clear is really great He can solo every camp under the sun including both prime spirit mini prime and big prime By himself without any problems because his health regen is through the roof Um, like I said earlier him being able to get 40 health regen per second very strong Uh, yeah, but nowhere near s tier strong It's not it's not about it. So this is Everything that you just said is why I have him in a tier for sure The reason why I would put him at borderline s tier is because he is one of the only junglers I feel like they can do that consistently and and It's he's power farms so fucking fast He gets through his camps so fast. He gets he can get fed so early in comparison to almost any of the other junglers I that's why I think I have him so highly rated because he's just able to stay healthy and put out a lot of damage Throughout the entire early game even without items like you can just power clear I think your whole left and right side without having to go back right You're absolutely I would not say that he does damage by any stretch of the imagine I'll say in a in a in a in a ganking. I'm gonna talk about ganking I'm talking about just power clearing through your jungle and getting all your gold getting all your xp You're gonna come out of both At level five right you're gonna come out of both sides level five and have enough for almost a full item Depending on which one you're buying if you're staying in your jungle for a full clear and over a prime You're doing it wrong I I don't think that's true for for him and the reason why is because he gets through it faster Than most other junglers are able to clear one side I think that's just how I look at it now granted. I'm not a jungle main I'm not gonna say jelly knows way more about the jungle than I do I think he's a very solid consistent pick. You're not gonna go wrong with picking him He does a lot of things right. He can do camps easy. He can gank. He can offer cc He does he has an insane amount of health Regen and I think you can build him different ways. You can go full damage technically I think you can go bruiser. I think his damage build is probably the best But you could possibly go more of a bruiser tank ish chi and be okay Yeah, I think that's the problem is he has the choose is he gonna deal damage or is he gonna tank Yeah, he because you can't be but your environment that that's that's okay. You can make those choices more efficiently whereas Yeah, I don't so chimera bruiser chimera is terrible Bruiser chimera is sitting on the the epitome of sitting on the fence and benefiting not at all from it Because he doesn't do enough damage and he doesn't have enough health Even with his health regen because anti heal is so prevalent His health regen benefits him more in his jungle clear and the ability to take objectives by himself More than it benefits him in team fights. There are very few team fights on chimera that i'm sitting there going like Yeah, my health regen really helps me there Right like it's very much a if I go full damage I'm just damaging them before they can get me low enough and my health regen does help a little bit Or if i'm going tank i'm unkillable, but I don't do any damage Yeah, the bruiser build does not work well on chimera in the slightest I think it would only work if you're using it just for pve and planning to You know control neutrals Anything else and I think that there could be a viability in that right? We know in early game being able to secure the mini primes and getting those on lanes helps Unlock your your laners so efficiently sometimes if you're over ganking you're not necessarily doing that So it's like yeah, but I can solo mini prime with literally any jungler Yeah, but not well, yes, you can but not maybe at the same speed that you could do it with chimera and coming out I just agree the speed is the same my health afterwards is not But the time frame that I have to cast it I back to base I take the portal or I go to a lane and go or clear some camps and gain some health back if I've got vam sort already right like it's The only part where the chimera truly benefits is soloing prime spirit and soloing big prime later in the game But if you're spending the five minutes, it's going to take you to do either of those things You're also not benefiting your team very much and the enemy team is just going to show up on you and trash you anyway Like that's where yes, he can in an ideal world solo these objectives But the enemy team will show up on him because he's been off the map for so long He must be on one of those objectives Like just lemon said everybody has anti heal on their kit now everybody has anti heal smart Yes, if they're smart, they're going to build anti heal and no, they just have it in the kits Maybe it's okay. So let me ask you this jelly. Let me ask you Jelly knees jelly knees Let me ask you this okay outside of fang mal who we you say needs to be nerfed and we I think we're all agreeing with it Who's who's the fang mal is not available. What's the jungler you're picking rucks? Every time you think Oh, yeah rucks offers so much more team utility rucks is great I think he is great, but I I've played with you and you're almost always picking chimera Because he wants to make it work. Yeah, that's because I want I I think chimera is more fun But I think rucks if you're playing hardcore like you want to win the game rucks is a better pick than chimera every time I think he's I I'm surprised at your takes on your junglers to be honest But I think that's also just because you're a jungler hater because you want all your jungles to be as broken as fang mal is Again, I'm going to break it down to my my metric for these is who am I scared of not not fucking afraid of a not Interesting. All right, you guys are just so good at the game Not scared at all. I'm scared of some I'm scared of rucks. I'm scared of steel I'm scared of rampage and I actually I agree with otto grucks has the fastest jungler jungle clear 100% oh, it's tied. It's tied between a and b I I don't understand like I'm bringing the casual dude How many more how many people play this game are are considered casual versus non-casual? I'm gonna just throw that out there. We're making a tier list, right? We're gonna be we're you gotta look at the perspective of the Most people who are going to be playing the game and I think chimera in most Games is going to be super efficient and and can be He is he is easy to pick up. He's like everybody's first jungler whenever they He's he's like you're you're not gonna Unless you're just brain off and not trying to play the game You're not going to do bad if you pick chimera. Is there probably some other junglers that can do? Well, sure you could do but that's the same you can say that about the brokenest champion It still requires somebody to play but I think with chimera is fine His his healing is really strong his ability to gank assist is strong He has cc in his kit. He can solo everything and he stays healthy. I I think that there's fine Now does he fall off late game? Sure, but a lot of champions do and a lot of the junglers do I'm gonna put rathen d tier right now just to piss people off and I'm gonna put chimera in a tier Just just a appease you Jedi I'm c plus. Thanks. Sean. I appreciate you, bro Uh, I actually will say that I don't think wraith is s tier I don't know. I don't think he's s tier either. No, I don't know solid a tier. I think he's solid either too I think he annoys a lot of people. I think he's a far more He's one of the most annoying characters you'll ever face, but uh Yeah, I'm going but not broken by any means The wraith is one of the few carries. I'm willing to leave up over murdoch and twin blast Yes, I don't think he's See people always keep calling him a carry and people keep playing him as a carry I always viewed him as more of a mid lane off lane better mid laner 100% I think he's a way better mid laner Yep, but in the because of the carry meta right where you can have games where You ban rev sparrow swim blast and murdoch Right, then you're what's your first pick after that wraith? Yeah, yeah, I don't think you would ever pick wraith I'll you wouldn't pick wraith over gadget for mid lane if you were going to play if you had your choice and competitive You wouldn't pick wraith over murdoch or twin blast and carry lane if you had your pick you wouldn't pick him over anybody in off lane if you had like an adc meta He's just not that great He's good. He's fucking good He's really strong off lane strong off lane, but would you pick him over murdoch or twin blast if you had the option for off lane? Nope, no No, oh no, he's nowhere near those two. He's absolutely a solid like a Minus maybe The big the biggest thing for him is itemization, right? So you need to decide whether or not you're gonna go on hit with it with his attack, right? So you're gonna go attack based or you're gonna go I'm landing every single right click and I'm never gonna miss one so I can have health you every time I hit it and go Magic damage the problem I find I think it's less around his right click The best word magic damage better on his rewind Oh, regardless what he builds if you go if he decides to go full basic attack If he decides to go full magic for his right click if he can't rewind he will lose Hmm I don't know about lose, but I think it would You if you're not good on a rewind then why did you pick him? I mean, uh, well, I guess because because you're in a game with us and he was the only one left Well, but that's that's exactly it like if you it's not even I don't think he's a better ending his right clicks is important if you don't land his right clicks You're gonna struggle as well Yeah, but if you can't if you rewind it's not even about rewinding correctly if you rewind Incorrectly more often than you do You are a detriment to your team and you will cost your team the game like a roar over the walls I've been saved by so many rewinds and it's so great. It's such a great feeling Or not only saved but I've gone in gotten a kill and I knew it was a one-way trip and now I'm back out And I'm like, well, they rewind you out of the out of danger and you're like, thanks, dude I appreciate her dude. Uh, I think his his um going magic is to me is the most fun build because there's nothing more satisfying Than like somebody trying to back behind a wall or something like that and you just Kill them it's so fucking cool and the range on it is farther than people give it credit for and you get mana back He and this is something dapper taught me And jelly talked about it before but I watched dapper actually do it He's an insane support like insane fucking support Like if you not played him support and you want to try something new and fun try wraith support if you can He is so fucking fun, bro Hilarious to watch this shit happen. It's it's amazing. Uh, I think wraith is great. He's just a lot more niche But uh, you know still pick him if you don't have a carry because you need something Oh the rewind out of the portal. I've done that so many times and it is When it happens You can do that I did this in a game If you didn't know you could do this I did this in a game as well You can Kalari dash through portals Uh, if you target somebody just before they walk in the portal, but before you land you can actually travel across the map with them through the portal It makes me wonder if you could do that with uh chimera I wonder if you could do that with chimera then you can't because chimera will bunk his head on the wall and Faceplant. That's funny Uh rewind doesn't need better effects. We talked about that in ftm It needs it that it needs to be more obvious that you've been rewound Yeah, yeah, it needs to put something on your screen 100 it needs to give you something I agree with that 100 but I don't think he's in a place where he needs a buff or a nerf I think he's just fine. I think he's I think he's solid eight here. Yeah And he's good. He's he's not bad. He's not bad at all. But just yeah, I don't Think you pick him over some of these others like it wasn't paragon I see I well, there's been moments where I feel like in I think in higher yelo that might be more prevalent or in like more You know competitive play the ultimate is because it's such a small map I really feel like you can utilize its benefits for your team more than yourself But you can use it as a good way to sneak up on somebody and try and get a sneaky kill You can't ask me somebody but Offs for ultimate as ultimates go It's our more influential ultimates from every other character that would play any of the lanes he'll be in Oh, probably true. I'm just saying it's not that bad Just throwing out there. Yeah, it's solid a solid a use holiday. All right now the And I agree with real easy there and I said this before we even got to play him when he was first teased in in overprime His invis should be a basic ability and his rewind should be an ult. Yeah, yeah I could see that. I wouldn't hate that either. I think it's fun. Here we go Okay, the the the me tough the only new hero to be added to paragon for fucking five years So fucking cool. We got zina I was gonna save this if our ftm But I says we're talking about her anyway And I already kind of prelude to this too mangoes I think this has got to be one of the coolest things if you're an old school paragon fan And you've been following along for so long as a lot of people have to finally have a new Paragon champion a new ip a new Face to be added into one of these games in over five years. I think is so exciting. It is so cool I'm stoked and I'm not even one of the crazy paragon guys So I can only imagine how now granted maybe actually because paragon guys like to be really grumpy too So maybe they don't like it. Uh, they only want original paragon Where's richter was this zina girl in here not richter Probably uh Boris isn't new oda. Boris isn't new Anyway, I'm very curious to see where chet ends up on this one. Uh I know where I have her. Where do you guys have her? I think she's fine I think she's not I think she has the potential to be s tier If the people that are in s tier get nerfed She is a worse feng mao Yes And with that in mind knowing feng mao is s tier it makes her feel terrible I think if feng mao was in a more balanced state where he got brought down to be more even with a lot of other people I think zina holds her own and is a very very solid a tier pick I have I think I again, I think she gets overshadowed by the fact that feng mao does everything she does better And with that in mind it makes her feel much worse than she is The the main thing I struggle with right now is that she's just buggy. Um, her right click Right click. So I learned by the way, jillie. I don't know if you were in when I was playing earlier today If you look at the ground It doesn't do that stutter thing where it sends you back For whatever reason, I think it's a camera issue So if the camera is struggling to keep up and then it thinks you went farther than you did and then it brings you back To where you actually were it fucks you so often You will think that you're because you want to right click and maybe alt And you can't because whatever or you want to right click and then e to knock them up or whatever doesn't work Um, I still think she's really really strong. She's so like shin b. She's so fucking fun to play Her kit feels so good, dude Whether you go e and then q or then q and then e and right click Uh, her her right click in jungle is super super fun Because you get that attack speed early to 30 increase on attack speed is so nice And it gives a little bit of damage, but the full range damage that you get if you can Catch somebody unaware with a full charge right click You do so much damage It's so fun. Oh the damage is wild on her full charge right click. Yeah And her ultimate is so cool looking I I'm a big fan of it. It's like a master eq, but like better Uh, yeah, it's again. I think feng mao is the thing that overshadows her But if he got nerfed to be in a different niche than she is I think she would be feel a lot better space The fact that her knockup can knock up multiple people. Yes. That's why I love it one of the strongest things about her And because of that it's Keeps her insane If she wasn't like I said if she wasn't buggy I think she would be a lot more annoying and oppressive than she currently is and I think people are also really struggling to Figure out how to use her stuff. I I think she's going to be Insanely strong in the jungle, but right now she feels probably better in the off lane just because uh The stuff that the buggy about her kit is Main I don't know man. I don't I had a lot of fun with her in jungle It's the first time I had fun playing jungle was with her I she's just she's just so fucking fun I didn't think anybody would want to put her an s tier so I didn't give the s option, but uh So I redid the poll I'm not surprised some people would want to put her an s because I'm sure that there's been games with people Who are just really good or have great ping That's another thing too is the ping in this this test has been god awful for me Like I'm jumping from like 100 to 120 being here on the west coast and then just you can feel it Especially on the melees and with zina with her bugs already Dude, I have so many times where I've tried to ult somebody and then and it won't go through Or I've tried to do a knock up and they're not actually in knock up range anymore They've already moved on and I'm just like well Fuck I just used up all my abilities and I'm just sitting here getting shit on so that's those those are annoying But yeah, sorry. I'm just talking. I'm in the camp if she's good, but not great like uh I think her ultimate is insane The she does that's the thing without her ultimate. She's If she gets a kill with her ultimate she gets a free right click Right, and that's wild because then she can tower dive with by taking no damage And taking one shot if she gets the kill she gets a free dash out of there. Yep Yeah, if you ult they addressed they sent out a post not too long ago Saying that they know that that's a problem with her what happens If you ult a teleporting countess or Kalari You will drop through the bottom of the map. Oh fun. Yep You can also because I've done it where if um Howitzer does his ult and he goes up in the air and you might end up stuck on the ground Alting nobody while he's up in the air It's buggy. She's buggy To be honest, she makes the most sense to be buggy, right? She's brand new ip This is their first big test with a lot of people it's gonna it's gonna have issues. I think she's cool as shit though It's like most people want her a So I'm gonna put her I'm gonna keep her at a Yep, I think that's where she is she could use it maybe some help in some aspects But again, it's hard to tell because of all the buggy-ness I think they did a great job balancing her. I expected her to be massively overpowered I don't think she is massively overpowered Mm-hmm. I think she has she has strength and she has some strengths and she has some weaknesses So 100% I like I said, I think she's overshadowed by feng mao at the in the current state of the game Does anything about this that you guys think we should change calari You think calari should be down in d Not sure why not by no means d Way lower on b if not c I don't think he's organizing it by ordering anymore Not really. I kind of a little bit, but I kind of kind of gave up a little bit. Yeah Like I would put wraith above Mirial Every reason you guys gave for shinbi is exactly applied to calari and worse I've not seen a shinbi popping off as much as I've seen a calari popping off. So All right. I think we're Frickin done with our tier list then Oh, that's a good discussion in this one. I liked it All jungle is bad according to jelly. Nobody's good except for feng meow The only the only jungle as good as literally not what I said All of them Need to be buffed Josh said all the characters he loves should be s tier exactly Sheesh, I mean the fey is s tier in my heart Calari's s tier in my heart 100% All right, so were you happy with this? No I am I'm there. I think I think we did a pretty good job here Not big because I don't know if narmash should be should be s tier personally, but I don't think narmash should be s tier I think he's a tier, but uh You know, that's I think he'll pushes him over the edge His heel is so strong But there's so much there's so much anti-heal and everybody's kits somebody asked in chat And it's still not enough because it's that strong somebody asked in chat, um If we were to make god tier if we were to select one top hero out of all of these heroes Who do you think should be ultra s As a gadget Just because I don't hate the gadget pick either but her I think her ease her ease of use Making it so that any player can come in and fucking destroy a game No matter their skill level. I think puts gadget At the tippity tippity top that in mind 100% gadget Yeah, her ultimate too. I mean It takes up every neutral like you just you throw it down in the middle of the neutral and you just win I I think Winfrey of anti-heal in these kits. Yeah, you get an anti-heal. You get an anti-heal. It's a little weird, honestly Although shadow knows what's up phase phase is another one. That's just stupid broken All right, man I think you need uh more you need to have a better understanding of her kit in order for it to be as broken as she is But yeah, yeah, yeah Both those top three she's probably the hardest to play Uh, you don't you think faking mouse Easier to play than her I think in terms of like just picking up a character Yeah, you'll understand faking mouth faster than you'll understand phase interesting No, I think that that's by like a teeny sliver of a margin Okay, and if you read phases kit, you'll do well I will warn people for phase if you want to use quickcast I would highly recommend you don't not have your right click on quickcast It's super super buggy or it's super hard to get into to land is better if you get the reticle Uh, cozy. Yeah, like like pilgrim just said, we're putting we're keeping all the 80 c's and s or a tier because of crit Because the crit modifier is too high right now So any 80 c you see you see teams running three 80 c's if they can and is still fucking destroying And they I mean the fact that they even added a modifier to the uh crit item That gives extra crit damage that you have to have over 50 percent for it to work Shows that they know crit is strong And even then it's still really strong That guy you played against me you were on gadget Do you annoy the shit out of me by putting mines on my head the entire goddamn game? All right, um, I've seen a lot of the community in games man, it's been super fun Yeah, it's been great really cool. So Make sure you guys say hi If you do see us in games and we're on on the opposite team, you don't have to feel obligated to chase us around the whole map Just that way you could say you did it. It's fine if you just want to play normally and not do that. That'd be cool Yeah, yeah That happens. You don't need to bully ftm. Okay. We have we we have a hard enough time as it is All right, uh, I think that's going to be about wrap it up I think we did a pretty decent job with this tier list again way too early to do a tier list like People could learn how to play kuang all of a sudden and then kuang is just fucking insane So just take this with the greatest all this was just for fun. We should do one every month Okay, you want to do a monthly tier list? I think so. I think that's that's enough time All right, but we've got between a patch or two right and so and you'll have Yeah Oh, this is it just hit those bellica knockups. All right, that's all about wrapping up Jella, you got anything you want to plug before we close things out? Uh, my stream because I'll probably stream some more this weekend But I definitely will stream the get through gaming tournament So if you guys have not signed up for that and you have a tournament or you have a team Then I would definitely sign up for that because that'll be I'm super excited for that Check the description next go against each other should be super fun. Yep Jenna you've been streaming a little bit. I have I've done two streams It's been it's been really nice seeing everybody come in and hang out So if you would like to watch, uh, you know some scuffed viking gameplay Feel free or if you want to pick a fight with me and argue with me about the tier list I would love this So yeah, you can follow me on youtube Um, it's the same the viking jedi I think he puts a link down there for you guys to click if you want to sub and get notified when I go live And you can also follow me on twitter as for as long as it still manages to stay up As the social media five or oh in the discord Dude, I would love to see more people popping off on the discords In in talking and in tagging us and stuff that you guys are doing because I think it'd be cool If we got like a community corner of stuff like showing off your guys's highlights on ftm or something like that So, uh, if you think that's a cool idea start spamming man goose in his chat with clips Uh, I'll be asking for clips anyway because I plan to do a top five when this is all said and done. Um Yeah dying to kalari gameplay. It probably happens every game You probably have that a lot because she does it, you know The only plug I got is the get through gaming tournament I always have their discord linked down in the description if you want to check out that tournament if you want to sign up You could probably just you could join They're looking for group and find a team if you want to but um, I think let's go wrap it up the long stream I appreciate everybody sticking with it and hanging out with us This is a lot of fun a lot of good discussion was had and uh I love I love it when things get spicy, man That thing's definitely got spicy tonight Spicy meatball, but this is going to be the fourth of the meetings crew signing off you guys Have a good one kalari's bad