 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. So you've got two guys who have never been football, who have never been real before trying to infiltrate, as you say, one of the biggest firms in the country and they're already on fucking red alert because a load of them have already been nicked. Walk in with the sergeant, next thing this fucking copper comes over, playing close and fucking grabs me and tells me I'm nicked. So I'm like, I said, what the fuck are you doing, mate? He said, I fucking saw you, I fucking saw you fighting and he thought the sergeant had nicked me. I said, I'm fucking with him. Someone like Tottenham, let's say, would take 5,000 away. There'd be 400 up for a row and the other 4,600 would want to watch the football. With Millwall, there'd be 5,000 away. There'd be 400 up for watching the football. 4,600 ready to have a row if they needed it. We got confronted in the pub that weekend as to who the fuck are you and that's the first time it put on us as to your fucking undercover old will. And we had two options. We are the runaway, which wasn't an option because there were too many fucking people and there was only one exit and there was six people between me and the exit. You know, there's 15 top blokes, me, surrounded by 8,000 assholes and then they start singing No One Lices in the middle of the asshole. And I'm like, singing No One Lices and in my end I'm going, we're gonna fucking die here. If you've tried everything, everything that possible in order to try and infiltrate this gang or this cell or whoever and your only way of getting in after everything you've tried is via the sister, let's say, of one of your targets and you know that that's gonna get you in. Is there a justification in order for you to do that if you've tried every other option? I'd say, yeah. We were on a train and we were going to London Bridge to meet some other guys and there was a guy sitting there with his wife and his two kids and he had a crystal package in the middle of that job and the guy just let him across and laid into him in front of his wife and kids. And we're on. Today's guest, we've got James Bannon. Hi Mike, good to meet you. How are you, James and Bill? I'm good, I'm good. Very fascinating story. Thank you. Undercover cop went, get involved in one of the biggest firms in the UK football hooligan, undercover football hooligan, basically for over two years, it wasn't just a short job, it was very long to be fair before we get into that first and foremost. How are you? Yeah, I'm good. Again, thanks for taking the time to be here today and obviously come on the show. It's a pleasure, Mike. People love these sort of stories. I always go back to the start of my guests. Where do you grew up? How it all began? Grew up south London. Dad was a policeman. Mum was a home help, lived on in a state. Yeah, it was one of those scenarios where you were going to either go one way or the fence or the other and if I just got into a scenario in a situation where, you know, we were kids in the 70s, mate, and obviously there wasn't much to do other than to fuck about, really. Didn't really do school, hated it. And yeah, I had to make a decision, made a choice when I was 16, I joined the police cadets, which was for me at that time was the best thing I did. And I had two and a half years of raps around some really nice guys and girls, to be fair. And then came out when I was 18 and a half, went to Hendon, 19, got posted to Greenwich, went on the beat, wasn't on it very long at all. I think I was in uniform before I went into plain clothes after about six, eight weeks on the area car. I did bits and pieces in uniform, but most of the time I was working as plain clothes observer on the car and which is basically you're in the back and there's a bit of burglary or there'd be an incident and you'd get dropped off with a PR and a radio and just see if you could see anyone. And being young, these people wouldn't look at you and think ordinarily, instantly, that you were a cop because you looked even 19. So yeah, I did that for a bit and then got on the crime squad after 18 months, got special dispensation to do that, started on the crime squad and then came out of probation and then pretty much got the nod to go from an interview at the Scotland Yard to go and work in a covert environment. Was it a decision for your dad as well or was that something you'd always wanted to be? No, I suppose all of us, not maybe not all of us, but it's always quite fractious with boys and dads, so it wasn't the best relationship at that time and I went in really basically because he didn't think I was going to amount to anything. Why? Because I was, I got expelled from schools, I had a really tight set of mates that we hung around with together and we played hard really and he struggled with that a little bit and I was quite, not unruly, but I was my own person, I knew what I wanted, which was I didn't want to go to school, I just wanted to make money. So he said I wouldn't amount to anything and I thought it would be quite a good idea to do what he did and just say, well look, can't be that hard because I'll even have someone like me, he won't amount to anything. What was your first day in the bit league? First day. So I had a really, really, really great mentor. I was very, very lucky. So I had a guy called an Ablaug Sergeant who took me under his wing. So my first day he's, he's a puppy walker, which means that they come out with you. He wasn't that sort of policeman. So he was an ex detective chief inspector that had been busted to sergeant. So he came out of the clubs in London and came back down and was working in Greenwich as a uniform sergeant then. And his words of advice, I'm going to give you three words of advice. So I went right okay. Anyway, I'm going to let you go out and you're going to do it. Don't fuck up. So I went out. I was out, it was two o'clock, shift, so I was working two to 10. I went out at two o'clock. I'd been in the collater's office, which is back then, which is what pictures of all the people that were wanted and stuff, recognise the guy, Big Rastafarian. But that guy looks very similar to the photograph of the guy that's wanted in Leicester for something. And so I approached him and he ran off. So I chased him. So I ended up having a scrapper with him. He was a much bigger man than me. So I just hung on to him. Screaming, urgent assistance. He needs to come and help me because this is a big guy and he's much bigger than me. And I was basically hanging on to this guy. We got him back to the station. I've got my tunics all ripped. My shirt's fucking ripped. My tie's gone. Fucking nowhere on me. And I remember he just walked in and he went, I just walked up to the desk and he looked at me and he went, what part of don't fuck it up did you not get? So I'm back in the station at half two. Anyway, transpired that the guy was wanted for rape and of a young girl in Leicester at the back of the Kentucky Fried Chicken Shop. It's amazing what you remember, really. And two of the biggest fucking policemen that I've ever seen from Leicester, plain clothes officers, came down and picked him up. So that was my first day. Within 10 minutes I'd made an arrest of a geezer that had been wanted for a rape. So a good day for all, really, apart from the guy I got nicked. I'm having a great day for him. What was that feeling like for you? It was the first person I'd arrested and I'd been out 10 minutes. So it was a great feeling. I mean, he was a nasty fucking horrible man. He had done a nasty horrendous thing. And I'd managed to catch him. And he was going to go back and he was going to be held accountable for what he'd done. How's that feeling then, but to go through that straight away, the first 10 minutes in the job, did it make you question the job? It was the right decision? Yeah, totally. Did it make you scared to go fucking hell? No, totally. What have I signed up for? Totally, I was 19 years old. Spotty thought I knew everything, knew fuck all. It was massive. And for me, it was because it set me up. And I got a nickname. My nickname was Golden Bollocks. Because I just, everything I touched, everyone I stopped was either wanted or... And the reason for that is I stopped loads of people in my short uniform period of time. I did loads and loads of stops. And loads and loads and I did all my research and looked at all the collators, obviously, who were wanted, found out who had warrants against and all that sort of stuff, stuff that you should do. And I wasn't lucky. It was fucking hard work. And it paid off. Because ultimately in the end, I started to manage to, started to arrest a lot of people. Because if you stop a lot of cars, the likelihood is that one of them is going to be doing something they shouldn't. Do you think it was easier to catch the bad guys because you're from the streets, as a young kid, to notice them more? I think so. Yeah, you just know the look, the people when they don't look in the eye or they make out they're doing something in their car because they're not, you know, they see you, they look at you and they try to avert your gaze or to look away to do all that sort of stuff. So they don't have eye contact. So, yeah, it helped that I, you know, I'd been picked up from school when I was 15 in a car that didn't belong to anyone. It's just because that's back then, that's what you did, you know, we shoplifted. We did all that stuff that, you know, maybe not everybody did, but back in those days, it was part and parcel of in South London and growing up. Yeah. How was that coming off the beat straight? I mean, how long should you've won the beat to be going clean? Two years. And how long did you do it on? On and off, I was in uniform for about 12 months. But even those 12 months, so within six weeks I was on the area car as an observer, which is the prime. It's apart from driving the area car, which is the big car with all the flashing lights, which is the hypersuit vehicle. It doesn't really get much better than that. And because of my mentor saw something in me, I got that. And I was making big arrests and doing all that stuff and doing all the observations on all the drug houses and then being the one to go and do the drug buys, you know, before I was 20 years old. What was the scariest moment on the beat for you? The scariest moment, which wasn't the scary moment at the time, is I remember we went to a house to arrest somebody who had committed an arm robbery. And I went round the back and jumped off the wall. It would only be me, wouldn't it? It jumped off the wall. And as I jumped, the ground all moved beneath me. And I looked down and there was a plastic bag and there's things sticking up at my bollocks. So I looked down and went, a bit curious as to what that is. I bent down and opened the bag and there was a son-off shotgun. So the guy got arrested and it was the gun that he'd used in the robbery. And then about six weeks later it came back from the lab that he had a... it was loaded and he had a hair trigger. So the likelihood and the chances of me jumping on that and it not going off for really... well, of it going off for really high. That's probably in realisation the scariest bit is I was going to lose my bollocks. No more golden bollocks? No more golden bollocks, no. So that was probably... but I mean, it's... it's elements of fear, you know? It's like, that's why stopping cars, searching people, they all contain an element of risk. Particularly if you do it a lot. So... So we see the plain clothes down here, is that CAD? Yeah. So you would only what, 1920? So I was... I wasn't a CID officer. So I was a crime squad officer which are uniform officers that work in plain clothes. And the idea is a stepping stone. So you go from crime squad and then you go to the... you join the department, so you join the CID. Yeah. So my natural process would have been crime squad another... maybe another squad like three area or four area drug squad as it was at the time. And then you would then go be... be selected for CID and then you would sit a bold, you would do that bold and then you would go to Hendon for more training. Yeah. And then come out as a detective constable. So at 21 you've went undercover football hooligan for one of the biggest firms in the UK. Yeah. My wo... Why so young, did you get that call? Because what you were doing previously I was like... Yeah, a tactic to send someone young in. No, I don't think so. I think, you know, there's a bit of a myth in relation to an... in relation to undercover work. Is this not age-specific? Is you can either do it or you can't. Whether you're... you know, you don't suddenly get to 30 and it's like, I can't tell you what, he'd be good at undercover. And I think my mentor, I sat with him and I asked him and said, you know, what do you think? And he went, yeah, I think you should do it. So I think you'd be good at it. And it was... It's a fantastic opportunity. I mean, it's the pinnacle of really, as a police officer, certainly for me, of working in an environment where you're trying to pretend to be someone that you're not. And you've got the option to be able to arrest nearly some really nasty, horrible people and put them inside. So did you know much about football before you got involved? Yeah, I knew a bit. I knew a bit. I'd been when I was a kid. I'd done Arsenal for three seasons because my next-door neighbour, one of my best mates, Dad, was a steward at Arsenal. So from the age of 10 to just nearly 13, 12, so nine to 12, we used to go every Saturday to the home games and get in for nothing. So he used to be the steward. So we'd just bring us in through the turnstiles. So we'd go and watch. Which was great. It was sort of Liam Brady times, Frank Stout, all that lot. It was amazing football. So we'd go to, yeah, to Highbury, at the Old Highbury and watch that. And then I got to 12 and I got a Saturday job. So I stopped going because I wanted to earn money. What was the plans for being an undercover hooligan? Was there a tactic to do that? Or was it just to shove you in the deep end? We were fucking dropped from a massive height. It was just, it was just, it was an absolute shit show. We had no, I'll tell you what we had. We had, I had a, which we made ourselves. I had a business card. The company I did was Spectrum Decorating and we had an accommodation address in Croydon. And we had a pager number because mobiles were around in those days. That was fucking it when we started. So you've got a guy, two guys who have never been football, never been Millwall before, trying to infiltrate, as you say, one of the biggest firms in the country. And they're already on fucking Red Alert because a load of them have already been nicked. So they were aware that the police were looking, they were all using that as a tactic. We double bluffed. So we went in a little bit earlier. So they all then got nicked and we were, so we were still in. So we were sort of, our faces were at that point sort of known, but not. And that was it. That was my cover, which is you've never seen me before. I'm Jim from Wandsworth. I'm a painter and decorator. And the only thing I've got to back myself up is a bit of a business card. That was it. So what did you do then? What was the first day? How did you manage to get enough of that? Obviously, I'd imagine it'd be tight. Like all top boys are not daft. They can smell corpus or they can smell someone. There was a real big, heavy meal wall pub. And we started going in there at lunchtime. And we're now painting and decorating stuff and got in with the barmaids. We did that all the way through the summer. The first game of the season, we went to the pub. Everyone turned and looked at us. And because the barmaids knew exactly where we were we'd been going in there for the last three months, every lunchtime. Saying we were working around the corner. And Jim, how are you? Come over, usual and all the stuff. And no one bats an eyelid because the barmaids have given you the fucking already, they've given you the thumbs up because they know you are. And then you just have to, you just take your time. How long did you do that three months in? Just to kind of get an end and just get your face known and... Every, and then the odd evening. But every, every fucking lunchtime for three months. What was your first game like you went to? So the first evening out is probably more prevalent than the first game. So the first evening out was a fucking disaster. Was that a game or was that just a game? So it was the Friday night before the first game. So the first game was Leeds Away. And Leeds are a top firm as well. So Leeds are a top firm, we're going away. And we were a little bit green. So we were going on a football special and there is absolutely nothing special about a fucking football special. I can assure you. So we'd gone out the night before. The guy I worked with, nicest man in the world but didn't do his own work. Didn't really want to be doing the job but knew it was a career move. So did. Hated it actually. And we went out and I'm dressed in what I would consider to be sort of mingling clothing. So it looked like he's in a fucking YSL t-shirt and a pair of chinos and a pair of deck shoes. And we drive down the old Kemp Road in his red golf GTI with a fucking windsurfer strapped to the roof. Went into the pub. It kicks all off. We get fucking thrown out of the pub. First night out. Disaster. We get back to the station. I walk in with the sergeant. Next thing this fucking copper comes over plain clothes and fucking grabs me and tells me I'm nicked. So I'm like, I said, what the fuck are you doing, mate? He said, I fucking saw you. I fucking saw you fighting. And he thought the sergeant had nicked me. I said, I'm fucking with him. And he went, but you look like them. And I went, yeah, and that's the fucking idea, you prick. That's the idea, which he doesn't. Which is why we're in this fucking mess. So the next day we turned up at the Houston to go to Leeds on the football special and we're sitting there. And you can hear there, no one likes us coming up through the stairs at half seven in the morning. And it was all the guys from the night before would kick the shit out of us. What did they do? I just went over and confronted them, really. I just went over and went, and they just went, what's your fucking, I went, look, he's a prick. I said, he's married to my sister. And fortunately one of them went, ah, I was fucking married to the sister Angon. I went, that's him. He said, oh, we've all got one of those, married to the sister fucking Angons. He went, ah, okay, fine, fair enough. And we got over it. And then we got on the train and then we met the four guys that we then, well, you know, it was used as probably the right word. The four guys that then saw us through to, well, three guys that saw us through to the two and a half years that we were doing it. He weren't football hooligans as such, but they knew everyone that was and they were well respected. One of them was really well respected. What was it like having the first tear up? Could you get properly involved? Did you have a free pass to get the first tear up? Well, the first tear up was the night before, which was that, that came down to self-preservation. He came out of it a lot worse than I did. He had a chip tooth and his fucking glasses were busted and a fucking big old black eye. And because he went fucking down, didn't he? Which is what you never do. I just fucking stood up and just fucking wind milled. Unfortunately for us, the bouncers stepped in pretty quick and threw us out. But in that instance, it was just self-preservation. So you just do what you can in order to get yourself out of that situation. But the actual first time was Leeds that day. What was that feeling like? They were fucking properly up for it. We got the coach from going to Leeds by the time we got to the ground, there wasn't a fucking window left on the coach. Every fucking window on that coach had gone. And everyone was like, no one was fucking up, everyone was on the fucking floor, mate. We were pelted from bridges and fucking side streets, cars driving up alongside it. We got off the poor fucking coach driver, just looked and it's like, his coach was completely and utterly fucked. We went in, walked up steps and it's the first time I'd experienced there's 1500 Millwall there. And it's the fucking most noise I ever heard. It just came up over the things that no one likes. And as we came over the steps, it was fucking just to see a Millwall in the away end. How many of them were active out of the 1500s? So the thing about some clubs is there's a hooligan element in most football clubs, if not all. But certain clubs have a reputation. So someone like Tottenham, let's say, would take 5,000 away. There'd be 400 up for a row. And the other 4,600 would want to watch the football. With Millwall, there'd be 5,000 away. There'd be 400 up for watching the football and 4,600 ready to have a row if they needed it. Is that why they get the reputation that they have? They just have that. They're just passionate about their club. I'm not saying that the other supporters aren't, but they have that mentality. It's like West Ham, it's like Chelsea. It's like a number of clubs. It's different now because of the way the football works and the amount of money that's now in it. But it's still there. But it was at that time that whoever we took away, you knew that there was a large proportion of the people that were away or at home. If it kicked off, it weren't going to turn around and run away. I had Bull Gardener on. He was West Ham top boy. And he says, is it tiny? Because tiny wanted the phone bill. Before he died, he'd get a brain tumor or something. And Bull phoned them and they took them and sorted it out. But that was to the top boys from obviously Millwall and West Ham. It was fucking West Ham, eight mill war, Millwall, West Ham. These friends gave them shit for it. Yeah, of course, but it was dying. And ultimately, obviously, there was a time delay. There was a time difference. Things had moved on from there. And good for him because it comes down to respect for another human being, doesn't it? So I can understand why he would want to do that. But I can also understand why he would have got a lot of stick. It's like what the fuck are you doing? Did you have to go to every game after that? Every game. So then where did you draw the line from? It becomes your life and actually you start fucking enjoying it to then. It becomes what? How did you find the balance? Was it hard? I get asked this a lot. The honest answer is, I could go, oh yeah, it really fucks you up and you really gets you and you get engrossed and you get all that stuff. It was just a job, mate. It was a job. I was 21. I was a stepping stone for what I thought was going to be a long and successful career. And so I just looked on it as a job. And my job was to be as convincing a football hooligan as I could be. And so I was going to make sure that I was as convincing as I could be. And I ain't going to be a convincing football hooligan in the family enclosure eating ball suites. It's not going to happen. So I just immersed myself. Does it fuck you up? Does it fuck with your head? Yes, if you want it, if you let it. But it is a job. And my primary job was to infiltrate me all football hooligans, find out who they were, get evidence on them and send them to fucking prison. When did you realise that you had a name? When did you feel accepted? How long into the job? So we were going to the pub that I mentioned earlier and we sort of having conversations with the landlord and he had a load of garden furniture nicked from the outside. I'd say load, two tables and six chairs because it wasn't massive outside. And then he realised he'd done it and the van came past and he ran out and confronted them. And I went out and backed him up. Not because I wanted to back him up because I wanted to see what the fuck was going on. And I was there and from then on I had a really, just had a really good relationship with him and as a result of that, yeah, that's when I came out and went, yeah, we're getting somewhere now. Was your cover ever blown? Do you see them in your undercover? Do you still get to go to the station or is it just phone calls or private meetings? Yeah, again, because the Metropolitan Police are fucking thick and stupid. We were working above the police station in Broccoli for the first six months. It's like, what the fuck are you doing? All of our targets are local to the area. We can't do work. So then we got moved to Hiver Green where we worked for a year and then this was a massive office that was all security camera because it was the child protection, the old child protection offices. And then we got moved from there and actually went into a house that had been provided by the security services. Don's ever trying to interrogate you? One of the top boys, that was something for sure. They were just, okay, one of the lads obviously as time goes on, the trust grows. Yeah, and if you don't give them reason to do that, we got fronted one day, the sergeant said, let's say in slip, that he shouldn't have done and told him where we were working, where we were working. Our cover was, we were doing outside. I had a house that I was doing up with a girlfriend at the time and was doing the work on it. So we used that as cover and the guys were doing the roof so we weren't there because we were painting so we weren't there but they went down to see us to take us out to lunch and obviously we weren't there and the roof said, I don't know who the fuck you're talking about. Never heard of them. And we got confronted in the pub that weekend as to who the fuck are you and that's the first time when we got it put on us as to your fucking undercover old bill. And we had two options, we had the runaway which wasn't an option and there was only one exit and there was six people between me and the exit so I just went on the defensive. What's the scariest moment being an undercover hooligan? Two. West down the way at Simot Cup that was fucking scary walking down the Milam Road in the middle of the afternoon and we go from 150 to 40 as everyone's just peeled off and and then we get charged a bit of fucking runaway and hidden a chemist. The fuck I was saying. And the second one was Arsenal North Bank as a Millwall supporter in the Arsenal North Bank which is their home end. How did you end up in there? With the guy from the pub and 15 of the biggest fuckers I've ever seen never seen before and they went come, you come with us so I went with them and so did the sergeant and the sergeant bowled out he went and left so I was on the terraces with these 15 men and me and thinking this is only going to end fucking one way and they could tell I was absolutely I was nervous I suppose in the plightest way of putting it you know it's 15 top blokes me surrounded by 8000 Arsenal and then they start singing No One Likes Us in the middle of the Arsenal North Bank and I'm like singing No One Likes Us and in my head I'm going I'm going to fucking die here and it just fucking you just think about football is it just he had that eerie silence before everything fucking goes horribly wrong so he just went completely silent like completely fucking silent and they just everyone moved out and the first geezer stepped forward and started coming towards me because I was the smallest and the guy who was next to me as he came towards me steps in front of me and just went he just hit this geezer fucking squarely on the nose and he just went Bosh straight did a fucking complete flip in the air and then just landed on his head on the concrete terrace and everyone all the middle boys everyone just went fucking proper clouted and then it was like the crowd opened up and these two little guys scuttled out and grabbed him and dragged him back and then the thing closed and then he just kicked the fuck off proper. What was our method then that was that the plan to go on the way and just cause it? Of course in the Arsenal way and look what we can do we were in there and we've infiltrated you and then it was fucking fight for your life to get to the pitch which is what I did just windmills and the last thing you do in that scenario is go fucking down you go down you fucked you have to do whatever you can stay on your feet. Did you get respect from my wall balls after that? I got onto the pitch and got arrested and back then there were I've said this in the park there were two sorts of police officers that police football there was what I used to call the cake eaters the big fat lazy fuckers who drive a desk in the week and work football on Saturdays for the overtime and then there was the the tactical support group but who were more affectionately known as the thick and stupid group who just want to have a fucking fight so they get shields and battens and fucking helmets and want to charge at people and hit things so that's your mix of football you got the thick and stupid group and the cake eater and I got the cake eater and instead of taking me behind the goal and down the tunnel which is what he should have done this way he went the wrong way and walked towards 10,000m and his grip just lessened and lessened as we got closer and closer to the middle we were going fucking mental as we got led across it all kicked off in the seats above me there was a guy called Ginger Bob was up there and he all fucking went off and he basically let go of me and I just ran dodged the counter and dived in the crowd and that was it and then on I was always known as the guy that fucking led the charge and dived into the crowd who was the top boys at my wall at the team there were loads there wasn't just one ahead they all got calling the shots was it just different wee teams or was it when it was out in force on game day did everyone stick together or was there a different group? no there were lots of different factions there were lots of different groups there was not one the guys that I was with there was a guy called Terry and a guy called Leroy they were tasty tasty men how far away was he parked from my wall cop shop Catford so not far so what happened if somebody had seen you out and said I've seen him on a beat before is that your fucking that's your biggest fear so I got recognised once by a guy I was in the cadets with he was a sergeant started coming towards me and you know someone has recognised you and is going to start talking and I just planted an ice cream in his head because I had bought everyone ice creams and on our way in and as he came towards me I thought I fucking know I've got to do something I just went Bop and then fucking grabbed and told him I said I'm working what are you fucking doing and then the spotters recognised it was me and obviously went what they've came over got really aggressive with me and nicked me and then led me up the thing and went what he was about to fucking and they said what happened and I just explained and they just went right well you've been nicked now so that's cool so I didn't go back carry on to the game and then just went back into the pub afterwards and because everyone was what happened I said I've been fucking nicked I've been bailed to appear at court so you've been under cover how far can you go obviously if you're in fights you're doing your job to see who's involved but how far could you have went with it without getting into trouble yourself it's a bit of a there wasn't that many fights to be fair there were a number there were some but there wasn't that many you need to gather the evidence in order to do that you can't be at the back and also you can't be at the back because you're trying to get a reputation and a name for yourself where people are going to tell you what's going on because they want you there and they want you involved so you have to be at the forefront of what happens one because you ain't going to get the evidence and two because you have to convince people that you are what you're trying to get them to believe that they think you are so but for me it always came down to I never ran out somebody specifically to punch them in the head but if someone was running at me and wanted to punch me in the head they were going to fucking get punched first so I never incited anything I never created anything I never led anything but I wasn't going to allow myself to get fucking beaten up or hit so I would protect myself to fence guard anyway yeah if you're drinking with people, fighting with people because I always remember the film Donny Brasco this is a true story they ended up befriending each other and he was broken hearted the guy that build a rapport that much that you forgot that I'm going to need to stick these people in soon because does that become difficult especially it doesn't matter who you are if you're on a job if you're spending so much time with people having a laugh and drinking it makes you mentally that way yeah it does but you for me prime thing was as I was hard back to is it was a job doesn't mean that it was easy doesn't mean that I made all the right decisions but it was a job and some of the people that we were infiltrating and that we deserved to be put in prison they're fucking nasty horrible cunts who just fucking need to be sorted out but a lot of them weren't they just wanted to have a fight they were passionate about their club so it does become difficult but ultimately is they are doing stuff that they shouldn't be doing and they are behaving in a way which isn't socially acceptable to some so but yes it is difficult I'm not going to say it isn't and it's also you take the flip side of it it's a fucking snidey thing to do it's fucking snidey so you can't lose sight of that either is the fact that what you're doing is you're portraying to somebody that you're something that you're not and actually you're not tricking them but you're convincing them that you're one of them when actually you aren't at all and you're going to but you have to get yourself over and above that to be able to do the job properly because I've had the undercover pedophile on obviously a tough job but catching these people and putting them in prison you can you're not going to lose sleep but obviously if you're one of the boys down the boozers having a pint going having a tear up talking about the football knowing about his wife, his kids I'd imagine because even speaking to you you wouldn't pass as a copper I've had ex-coppers on the phone you just there's always a telltale sign that because obviously back in Glasgow you just kind of know if you're getting forward there's surveillance who's a copper but yourself you can probably tell you'd pass as one of the boys if you were in the boozers I wouldn't think he's sus because of the way you present yourself the way you talk like did you learn that from? just me, just being normal just me and what I learned I suppose from the operation is that I fucking wasn't a copper is I thought I was I thought I could be but is I just didn't like the vibe and the stuff that I encountered when I was working I mean I would argue that at that time there were as many of the fucking hooligans if you want to class it as that word they were wearing fucking police helmets as the people that wanted to have a fight of football so that's when it starts to get difficult is when you start to you realise that actually there is fucking bad in fact some of them are worse because they're fucking creating this scenario they're leading us into this you know we went to Middlesbrough it's just they just fucking left us to get the fucking you know hoping we'd get the shit kicked out of us and we walked out and there was just 150-200 Middlesbrough coming over there was about 60 of us of course let us out ain't no fucking doing they totally knew what they were doing but that day and that's the only day but on that day it wasn't Jim from Wandsworth Painter and Decorator Infiltrating Millwall that was Jamie you want to have a fucking fight you can have a fucking fight because that day had just been they just taken the fucking piss the police had been fucking awful and it was like do you know what you're all here to have a fight do you know yeah today and I suppose there's when you that's the element when you go well maybe I get understand now why they are where they are and what they do what they do and I came out of that and when I suppose you look back at that and you think that was a bit of a defining moment where you understand even though it's a job that day and it was the only day but that's maybe all it needs is just that one day is enough is you you go do you know what you fucking deserve there is going to be a fight and we did I completely lost my shit no idea what went on can't remember out of the few years you were doing that who would you say the top thumbs were West Ham Leeds Chelsea Cardiff, Birmingham they've all got elements mate every one of them forest the Zooloos, Birmingham yeah I had big bands barricade on got dressed up and passed away not so long ago but fucking just looking at them man you wouldn't want that smoke man he's just a big he was a kickboxing world champion and you're thinking fuck that you know what I mean it's like some scary bastard, Bill Gardner he's the nicest man I've ever spoke to but yet proper back in the day Bernackel fighter, mad bastard West Ham they're fucking all this shit they're hard men who you know World War II would be the ones in the trenches going right fucking fix your bandits we're going to fucking have them you can't equate it but that's the mentality which is right we're going to and everyone's like yeah yeah and you know and it's like fucking right let's fix our bandits we're going to fucking do them and get over the half of you get shot so it's like but it's that mentality which is that you know and you there's an understanding of as to why they behave in the way that they do it's not some of it's not acceptable on the way that they do it was that the only job you've done for over two years or were you getting other jobs? two and a half years I did other undercover stuff how was that what was the difference the one was with working with the regiment the stuff in Kilburn that's going to a pub that was a sobering day I was told to go in and that's where you realise that you really are a boy I had one job which was to go in and see if this guy was in the pub and I went in and the guy was in the pub but he was at the bar I went in and bought a beer and I got talking to him my job was to go in see if he was in there and come back out I got talking to him was in there for three quarters of an hour came out got picked up went back for the debrief and I said look he's going to Ireland in these dates he's doing this, he's doing that he's doing various bits and pieces and they went alright they were like the most ineffectual men they just had long air and moustaches and I thought I'd done a really good job because I'd got all this information and he just looked at me and he went what was your brief I went to go in and see if he was in the pub and he went what did you do so I said when he saw he was in the pub I said he got talking to me and he went the fuck out anyway there was one guy sat there really quiet I didn't say anything he just got to leave and when he got up he went you are a cunt he just walked out and I'm like ok and then the guy who was running the op he went you don't understand he was going to have to he's been working on this job for over two years so you know what that's like he was the one that's going to have to break his cover to come in because they were worried about you he thought you'd been sassed he said they'd kill you he said he was the one that was going to have to come in he's the one going we need to go and get him no no no we'll just leave it and because he was looking out for me and I hadn't done my job whereas I should have just gone in and gone yeah he's in the pub I walked out but I couldn't because I was arrogant and I wanted to prove myself and I got all this information which was great but I wasn't my job who was the guy Brick Lair from North London that was that so yeah he was Irish yeah yeah so he was up to no good yeah so a few foot now just to see if he was here but obviously you got to the bar and he was there I couldn't fucking believe it I ordered a pint of Guinness and alright mate and I just got talking to him yeah and the second one I did was Manchester which was arranging for drugs drugs by that was happening in that was happening in London I went up there and did that for for someone and yeah that was interesting so you had done the undercover for over two years not a timescale but I'd imagine just to get all the information but what's the normal time you would normally go undercover like over two years is a long time is it not yeah it is for that sort of work full on for that sort of time yeah imagine something the mafia doing that trying to catch the mafia and finding out their organisation how it works but for the hooligans sort of things yeah but you know you look at you know we were trying to get a sort of a full case you know it was fully concise and all the stuff and we were dealing with all the trials that were falling out of bed at the time because think about undercover police officers and you know you don't want to come across or appear as well actually I don't really fucking care to be frank whether you're arrogant or not is a lot of them aren't very good it's the same with most things in life you know I've had lots of businesses I've employed lots of people and 20% of the people do 80% of the work that's what I've done lots of undercovers which is why things have all gone fucking horribly wrong and there's all the stuff in the press because they're you know they aren't very good at it it's a fucking really difficult thing to do well you know it's not in exact science you can't just suddenly go well if you do this course and if you do that course and if you learn to say this and if you do that it's it's not it's something which is why I lot cheat which is they'll have affairs or relationships with people in order to try and get in rather than trying to do the job properly but on timescales it can be an undercover job could be 12 hours or 12 months or 12 years just depends on the job just totally depends on the job and what comes out of it and the information that you start to get and whether or not it's public's interest for you to pursue and continue with what you're doing and you know now it will be is whether it financially it makes sense what makes a good undercover copa is that can you imagine communication skills must be the key element I think we use this word a lot in this interview you have to be a bit arrogant you have to be a little bit brave you have to trust yourself you have to be able to think on your feet you have to know your law as to what you can and you can't do and how you can justify it you need a fucking strong moral compass because it's really really easy to justify fucking anything you put a line of gear on the table I can you know say try that this is what we've got come in see what you think of it a lot of people will take that gear and their justification is well if I didn't they would have questioned me as to why I didn't take it whereas I would argue you turn around and go what the fuck are you doing serving me up gear mate I'm a fucking drug dealer I'm not a drug user that's my fucking profits put it back in the fucking bag I sell that shit to make fucking money put it back stop giving me I don't want fucking gear I don't want that stick it back in the fucking bag is the way I would look to play that scenario whether it's right or wrong but that would be my way of doing it so morally is it's it's a real difficult one you know so it's a bit like where do you draw the line is like having a relationship with someone is you go if you've tried you can't negate you can't suddenly go no one can have relationships with anyone if you're an undercover police officer if you've tried everything everything that possible in order to try and infiltrate this gang or this cell or whoever and your only way of getting in after everything you've tried is via the sister for let's say of one of your targets and you know that's going to get you in is there a justification in order for you to do that if you've tried every other option I'd say yeah do you think a lot of undercover coppers use it then for free passes for certain things 100 fucking percent because that's just human nature I would say that I'd say that yes they do and I'm not saying that my approach is the right one I'm just saying that's the one that I chose to employ which is you need to try and keep sight of morally what's right but people would argue will actually morally what you're doing is wrong anyway but then as you say with that compass it's just how far some people are prepared for that needle to go see when you were undercover was there any moments that stood out and you thought shit what am I doing cause you obviously can't blow your cover and you just need to let people do their stuff but was there any moments that stick out yeah worst one and I I talk about this one a lot and it's the one that haunts me I suppose we were on a train we thought was a quite a heavy hooligan actually was a fucking mug and we were on a train we were going to London Bridge to meet some other guys and there was a guy sitting there with his wife and his two kids and he had a crystal palace lapel badge on and the guy just leant across and laid into him in front of his wife and kids and every part of you just wants to jump on him and halt him off and nick him but we were early doors into the operation we were sort of now if I had been two years into the operation he would have got us I would have jumped on him and beaten the shit out of him cause I would have then had the weight behind me and people would have known who I was for what he was doing but at that time it just wasn't something we could do and he beat the guy up about badly in front of his when his kids were crying and his wife was crying and it was like and I had to try and distract him I just jumped on the seat and started singing no one likes us like endorsing what he'd done but hoping that and he did he stopped and then he started singing and we went to get off the train and you get the look from the wife and the two kids to look at you like you're a piece of shit quite rightly and cause they didn't know didn't they and Giza lying on the ground crying with blood pissing out of his head and then you go out for the rest of the evening with this blood drinking and trying to make out you're his mate did you see that a lot people coming and going in these firms a solid firm people don't really come and go people maybe want to try it for one week see what it's like just go to build it up build a reputation and then to get in first trust me you don't just walk straight in so it's not like somebody watching a film and going I want to try that doing it for once and then fucking off doesn't work that way so when you're doing that then for over two and a half years it's done like no convictions nothing case collapses like all your work done like how does that make you feel angry and why did that why was that the case that it's done after two and a half years it was politically led so it was a thatcher there had been the 85mm wall rights at Luton which had been played out live on telly and she wanted to and she wanted to deal with football and society at that time and you know it's no it's all coming out now but it's you know we're aware at the time it's no different to the minor strike really is in relation to the way that that was policed and undercover people used etc it was just a you know it was the way that they chose to police at that time and they were going to try and move it forward it's a big scoop but they used a load of people that weren't in my opinion very good so they lied and the lies caught up with them and all the trials, subsequent trials with Chelsea Westam Millwall, the Chelsea one they actually went down and then they realised the evidence had all been fabricated and they got released on a retrial, Westam trial didn't even get that far it just fucking collapsed and the Millwall trial some people went to prison and then it was all rescinded again and they were all let out so the publicity was really bad and as a result of that I think they thought you know what let's not put ourselves through this again we'll just stop everything and in hindsight and now thank fuck I wouldn't have written the film I wouldn't have written the book I wouldn't have written the book I certainly wouldn't be sitting there talking to you about it if I'd put people in prison I wouldn't want to talk about it but no one got nicked so as a result of that it's you know and maybe it would have been maybe our conversations would be slightly different had they been arrested and so I had chosen to talk about it and they had been sent to prison as to you know how I would feel about that now as a 57 year old man How does it feel then like young kid then befriending people in any case can't be a sort of relief as well could you have imagined of like some people no because at that time it was as I said it was a job I wanted to see that job through I wanted to for all the effort and all the stuff that I'd put in and all the risks that I'd taken and where I'd put myself it would have been nice to have had some rewards for one of a better word of it I'll be vindicated as to what I'd done was worthwhile yeah through it all to stop but what he did do is it made me re-evaluate everything as to where I was in my life at 23 years old and I was fortunate in as much as I had at that time I then had the two guys that gave me the best advice in the world which is head covert guy in Manchester who was just in the world of undercover police in is and was an absolute legend and he just basically went look I met him I've been London at hotel because he asked to see me and he just went look you've got some options let's talk through your options so you can go back to Warblington and drive a panda car probably 12 months later you can start doing this again just in a different environment said all you can come and work for me he said all you can go and do stuff with the security services he said all you could do what I would suggest you do which is leave and go and do something else just like that and I went why's that and he went look he said you're 23 years old he said there was a very strong possibility he said you and I are quite similar people he said I've been doing this a very long time he said things are changing he said there's a shift and he said the likelihood is that you could be dead or imprisoned by the time you're 30 and I went alright which is you know I can understand I can understand that commentary he said but if you can do this you can fucking do anything so think about what you've done so if you can do this you can do fucking anything and I went yeah do you know what I think you're right and I you know so I just I went fuck it so I left I'm just like you know I don't want to be a pawn anymore I don't want to work for anyone in the world I'm going to work for myself and I'm going to make I'm going to make any decisions that I make and anything that I do moving forward will be fucking mine and mine alone and if they're wrong at least they're my decision I'm not going to be dictated to by some prick at Scotland yard who hasn't got a asshole because he suddenly realised that some of the other trials that he's been operating have fallen out of bed do you think you would have done the undercover stuff if it had worked and it had all gone I would probably have done that would have been my career ultimately it's about it's as good as it gets it would have been for me it's the pinnacle of I've got to do that at 21 going to football matches and it's like I've realised now in my life because I've done lots of really great things I've been really fortunate I've done some really really good things I'm much better at the journey than I am at the arrival so I'm really good at the journey I'm top once I get there I'm like what am I going to do now I'm going to go on another journey and that's pretty much what started it really it was a big part of my life but I just sat and thought this isn't going to fucking define me this isn't going to be just it which is great but having said that I've written a book about it I've written a story to a film about it and I now do really meet really nice guys and do good interviews about what I used to do but I've got four other interviews about trying to set up a commercial airline in a property company and doing one man shows all that stuff it's just about employing people and being successful and everything else it's just a part of what I did but it is interesting something that I'm quite happy to talk about so what happens then once buying phone call like pull the plug on it we can't get a case do you just leave that life behind then or did you ever go back have a couple of beers and go to the football without no I didn't go I went I did a film for Channel 4 went there with a couple of actors did that one of the guys recognise me that was I did come out at that time which was a film that I wrote which is based on me and then I went a few times, I've been a few times I still sport Millwall I mean you can't do what I did so again there's that double argument when you turn and say well I thought it was just a job it was just a job but at the same time they're a fucking great football club they're passionate about what they do they've got passionate supporters and they've got people that want to have a fight but then lots of clubs have got that but they're actually, when it comes to it they're a fucking great football club and at the time when I followed them and they're starting to now is they played some really good fucking football and they had a great team and we went up to the first division how hard does that then to bend that leaf active football matches, feet and beer set them into lads how hard does it tear Josh back to normal life for me? next day, move on is that as simple as that? a lot of people would have struggled with that I'd imagine adrenaline you'd have got with the rush so all you do is you find another way of getting that adrenaline and you channel it that way how did you do that? I became an actor and the adrenaline and the rush and then I realised that very early on the great thing about being an undercover police officer is I got to do a two and a half year in pro and I got that chance as an actor it's a bit more difficult because you're relying on so many other people to give you work and I think quite rightly as people are a bit nervous about employing an ex undercover police officer back in those days because it was you know was it socially acceptable then? when did you first start speaking out about what you'd done undercover or was it years ago? was it a risk for you as well to put your face out there and go and fuck it man? because like I say you're a bold man you're just doing your thing and not really getting it like you say it's a job and it was what 30 years ago I mean you we all do, you read the comments you're a snide you're all the stuff you just go fuck it yeah I know whatever you know you're a liar you read all that shit and you're just like but I know and that's really all that matters and the people that that I talk about but I never name them by name because it's not fair and if they want to put their name out there it's up to them isn't it so I didn't, no I didn't I started being an actor I wrote the original story to ID purely for my own personal game which was that I wanted a part in it I wanted to play me and that opportunity didn't arise because it didn't arise and they maybe thought that they could get someone who could do that better or which of the transpires is that they were petrified about putting me in the film for insurance purposes and I had a part and then it got pulled on the day I film in so I never got to do it but I wrote that purely for for selfish reasons in a way because I wanted to have a part and I thought it would enhance my acting career um so I didn't I didn't talk about it until 2013 when the book came out and the reason for that is because the guys I worked with were still serving police officers and the one who, the final one who retired said what are you gonna do? I said well I'm thinking what do you think and he just went why don't you write the you know write about it write the book so it was 2012 so I went yeah right so we also wrote it and it got um he got picked up and then books like that normally come out and level up coffee tables and things to be fair who was it reading the book to bring back a lot of memories yeah and I can remember I remembered all of it to be fair I remember what I didn't remember for the beauty of online and stuff and matches and you can go on and there were specific games that you can remember what you did and um yeah it was a it was quite cathartic really to do that and um but you're nervous when you put something out something because it's you know with a book the beauty of the book is it's not it's not like a film or um or a play or anything like that is you know you do have some control um and no one expected least for me for it to come out and be as successful as it was and then obviously the comparisons came in relation to id and the fact that this guy's just copied the story from id and just like no they haven't copied anything mate his id is that's my story so it's just that I haven't chosen to to talk about it because I was trying to pursue my um at that time my acting career or my ability rather on the fact that I'd had a film made about me before I was 30 but the 80s and 90s it was at the height of the football hooligans like that was the proper years obviously before people started getting six years and eight years and for the feats but what do you think now that the hear stories now is it even gone now? I've interviewed a big dauntie he's taught them casual but they obviously still do bits and bobs but I can't update he's in 90s is what you remember from the madness the news papers and you don't really hear much about it now I think he's still there just called something else now it's just called social unrest and you know it's um yeah no he's still there probably more in the lower leagues than it is in the footballs chains it's now just it's now just totally that's what it's all about it's all about VAR and fucking watching something back what the fuck's that all about oh look he's fucking toes offside it's like really where's the human error in all of this it's like it becomes a clinic operation it's like dissection isn't it it's like fuck you know it's just gone way too far now who was the biggest fun who was the biggest out the more who's the biggest the number one not fate and wise but just who has the most people probably no one has that yeah I'd say fucking reflos aren't they West Ham club pretty close pains me to say probably West Ham um range is Selvic pretty pretty fucking up there I think all of them have their own their own little bit but it's I suppose when you argue is that the biggest firm is England or Scotland and it's just is because you'd be fighting with West Ham on Tuesday and trying to kill each other and then on Saturday you'd be West Ham and me all standing together fighting against the Dutch did you ever go to England games no no we would have gone Euro 90s if we'd stayed and carried on doing what we were doing for sure do you miss that do you know miss that I don't know about that I think there's something in you James you're missing it a bit I just channel it in a different way mate if I missed it I'd go did you get my sleepless nights beforehand if you know you were going up against like a Leeds West Ham like I was it just the buzz pure adrenaline mate again it's 21 you're like part of your brain hasn't even developed yet so you're just running around like I owe it an awful an awful lot like a massive amount I went into that as a spotty 21 year old boy and exited it long haired 16 stone pretty much a man I hope you end up putting on all of it I was fucking bays and booze Indians, Kentuckys fucking fast food alcohol you know I was fucking 11 and a half stone when I started I left I was nearly 16 that's right so it's like you know it cost the fortune but it was um yeah but it's you know and there were there's all moments in all of our lives where you go you know and there was and during that time there were two or three that you just go you know Arsenal the Arsenal game when you sussed out as old bill the um the one that sticks out the most the one that I suppose that where I just go where I really realised the sort of issues sorry the where I could and actually my what could happen if it goes wrong we were watching this is back in 88 we were watching we used to watch St and Greavesy and then go down the pub afterwards and it got interrupted with this news flash of this silver capri reversing into an IRA funeral and we were watching it and there'd been four days before there'd be a guy called Michael Stone that attacked an IRA funeral and fucking threw angrenades and started shooting at people I mean it's just again played out live on television just literally if you haven't seen it then you just walks into this funeral where there's loads of people at the cemetery and starts fucking lobbing angrenades and shooting people anyway killed I think two people and they were burying one of them and everyone's everyone was on highest of alert I would imagine and what they were and this fucking silver capri just reverses again into the middle of this IRA funeral and they dragged two guys out of the car and then it cuts away and I'm like and we're watching that and I'm like what the fuck are these people doing they fucking deserve to get a slap 100 fucking percent just fucking reversing into some funeral so I mean some lunatics turned up four days before frying angrenades at people trying to shoot in two people now another one's river and then 20 minutes later they cut back and that you it comes out that they weren't to you know members of the UDA or the UDR or whoever they were to undercover soldiers and they'd fucking inadvertently it would appear have arrived at this funeral and reversed into it because I hadn't read their fucking script and didn't know what roads were closed off from what have you and got dragged out of the car and murdered so I've got 20 minutes before that pulling about the car give them a slap to 20 minutes later going fucking undercover they're doing what I do they've inadvertently fucking stumbled into this fucking funeral and as a result of it by their misjudgment or bad move they've been fucking dragged out of the car and executed and that day was that was the day when I just went you know I was taking seriously what I was doing but I was but that was the day when I went I fucking need to cry up now but that's how easy it is that could that have potentially happened to you if your cover was blown it wouldn't have been the people that wouldn't worry me were the top boys they'd punch you and fucking walk away it's all the fucking muggy hangarons it would come in and take a kick and jump on your head and then take another kick it's all the ones that are trying to make a name for themselves or they would have been the big concern and the likelihood of you had you been in an environment where they'd found out who you were of you walking out of there unscathed I would say we're almost 0% does that not meet your certain egg shells every time can't think about it mate the minute you start evaluating or start worrying about that you need to get the fuck out and go and do something else because you just will not it will not work if you worry about every time you go into somewhere someone's gonna sush you out and read that in a fucking heartbeat so what the fuck's that with you you're like oh no I'm fine you don't look alright you look like a fucking shit in yourself what's that with you so you just have to go in there and not think about it and just act could you do painting, decorating badly did people ask you to do the jobs though for favours you're fucking lucky there then I would have been alright I would have bussed it bit of magnolia would have been good but yeah no we we didn't get we fortunately didn't get into that position but we used them to some of the guys to service and maintain our cars and do all that so what's life like now then life's good I'm sort of, yeah I'm good I'm sort of retired now really I'm done I've worked really fucking hard and I've got myself into a position where financially the family is sorted now and can start to enjoy it a little bit more but it's been odd everything is but it's been a long journey but I'm much better at property development than I am at acting significantly more money as a property developer than I did as an actor so but all of a sudden we're all different but it's just about seeing that opportunity, season it and taking it and then realising when that opportunity is over then you move on and you take the next one yeah I see that I knew you just move on to the next one like you say just flip the chapter from an undercover copper to actor to fucking the co-author to property developer yeah but it's all it's just partly funny it's just about being putting yourself in that position where people you call it entrepreneurial whatever you like but I think entrepreneurial is just a big long word for people who just prepare to take a risk and are prepared to fail if you have that within you where you just go do you know what I'm going to give this to try and do the best I can or whatever it is whether you try and be the best carpenter whether you try and be the best cleaner people eventually will go he's really good and then you see an opportunity and it comes along then you need to seize it and take it and it's like that scenario where what's the best advice you've ever been given what's the worst advice you've ever been given it's like you just go well it's all good advice isn't it but it ain't advice it's the fucking opinion yeah so even in films like football factory and green street and that do you think that enhanced the troubles I never say no mate the only one I've watched is I watched ID once which was at the screening and I watched that and went okay and never watched it again and I suppose I don't need to watch it because it's about me I don't need to watch a film about it because I know it is what it is and I watched the film which was the one with Gary Oldman which is the thing that made me become an actor because he was doing what I did he was playing a football ooligan which is what I did and I just looked at that and my mentor looked at me and he said watch this I watched it because we were thinking about what I was going to do for my next career move and he said look at that guy there he's just done what you've done he said but if he gets his lines wrong he gets to do it again and I'm like yeah that's a fucking fair point yeah you don't so I'm like yeah maybe I'll have a little guy like what I'd give to a Gary Oldman very few people I always remember how it was in True Romance yeah Sid and Nancy yeah mad bastard plans for the future Jamesy boy are you going to be relaxing more I did a one man show based on the book and then went back exercised that muscle did a fair bit of stand up and started to do alright that's quite good that's good for the adrenaline anyone wants to get a bit of adrenaline go and stand on stage and try and make people laugh I've tried that I've done it as well about five years ago for a few months how'd you find it because you're a different character there's so much pressure before and after it's fucking so much pressure every comedian I know are nuts in the head they're fucked in the head they're mad bastards I think that's probably I would say of all the things I've done I think that's the thing I enjoyed the most the thing I knew the smallest the smallest amount about and it's just you but the way I look at it maybe if you do it again what's the fucking worst that can happen people ain't going to laugh it doesn't matter you are out there to try and make people laugh but if you don't fucking so what if you do this people ain't going to get their mortgages paid they're not going to get fed it's not any of that it's just going on stage to try and everyone there wants you to be funny you have a captive audience who actually go they're not sitting there going come and make me fucking they're sitting there going we want to laugh tell us a story that's going to make us laugh so I think I might go back and do a bit more of that and see where that takes me because it's just I was and I really enjoyed it and it was really really good fun and it's just again it's fucking adrenaline great but it's also you've given a little bit because you're actually people are leaving and they're happy and hopefully and have enjoyed what you've done so I might do a little bit more of that and I've got a grandson so he'll take up a lot of the time now moving forward for anybody watching this maybe want to get in contact with you watch your social media platforms I don't do anything so you can look that up it's running with the F I think what about your book where can people buy your book Amazon any more films in the pipeline any more books for the future so I've written the screenplay for running with the firm isn't a remake of ID it's a film that stands on its own and trying to get British film the thing about it is you could make it for half a million quid but it'll be like half a million quid films it'll be shit and it'll have C class actors in it and it'll just do it straight to DVD and it'll do what it does and it'll make a few people a few quid but it won't if you're going to do it I think it needs to be done it needs a proper budget it needs a proper cast and I think that might be a that might be an option is I might maybe look to make that and if I can't get the funding then fuck it I'll do it myself yeah quite right James the boy for coming on and telling your story I thought I'd enjoy that and good luck with the comedy cheers mate