 Welcome everybody to another episode of the nonprofit show. We are delighted that you are here, and I'm personally thrilled with our two guests. We have Angela Barnes on, and we have Jack Elado. A lot of you might know them independently, but these two dynamos have teamed up to really bring forward an amazing conversation. I can't wait to have it. Angela, tell us where you are coming to us from today. I'm out traveling as I live before, but I live in Cleveland, Ohio, based with Carter International Consulting firm. Awesome. Jack Elado, where are you coming to us from? I am right now sitting in the beautiful San Francisco Bay Area, and I'm visiting the city. I'm heading back to Southern California tomorrow, but I love being in the Bay Area. Yeah. I love that. Well, we love that you are here, and we are so appreciative that we also have the sponsorship of some equal powerhouses, and they include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Nonprofit Thought Leader, Staffing Boutique, your part-time controller, 180 Management Group, Fundraising Academy, National University, JMT Consulting, Nonprofit Nerd, and Nonprofit Tech Talk. These are the folks that join us day in and day out, and we've done more than 1,000 shows. If you want to get back to any of our previous episodes, find us on our app, check out streaming broadcast platforms, or even podcasts, because you can find Angela and Jack on some of our previous episodes as well, so we certainly welcome you that way. Angela Barnes, coming to us from Middle America, talk to us briefly about Carter and what Carter does before we get into this. Absolutely. I joined Carter in 2020. They're an international consulting firm that works with organizations of all types and sizes, arts and culture, higher ed, healthcare, marine care mammal, human services, and religion. And they work mostly, and we work on capital campaigns, planning studies, development infrastructure, board governance, and strategic planning. Love it. I love, love, love it. Well, you can check out more about Carter at Carter.global. Mr. Jack Alotta, one of our favorites coming to us from Fundraising Academy. I'm always intrigued by this part of your secret life, and that's the CFRE training. Can you just briefly talk to us about that, because it's such an incredible part of what you do and how you have grown our sector, I have to say. So, I host study groups for CFRE, but since Angela is here, I gotta do a shout out. Angela and I met through a study group, and you'll see those four letters after her name right now. So we've continued our friendship past the study group, past her passing the CFRE, and now we are collaborating on so many other great things. And I am so fortunate that I meet people like Angela Barnes in my study groups, and I just say, I gotta continue to work with these guys. And she's one of those guys. In fact, if I could give a shout out to our Cultivate Conference, where Angela and I are gonna have the opportunity to meet in person for the second time, because we're definitely gonna meet at AFP icon in April 7th, but it's gonna be exciting to be at the Cultivate Conference in San Diego, which is of course sponsored by the Fundraising Academy. You know, that's fabulous. We're gonna be broadcasting live on one of those days. Yeah, we did it last year, and so we'll be doing it again, and it'll be a lot of fun. Well, you know, let's get into this, because I'm gonna witness to both of you. I've kind of seen this as a board member going out in the community, raising funds. I could never give voice to it. I sometimes would just get this like sense. And so donor dominance, I love that word. I think for me, it's helped me to kind of give some language to what I've been able to observe, but I haven't been able to articulate. So help us out and paint that picture. What does donor dominance look like from your point of view? That's a great question, Julia, because it is not a sleeping gesture. All of a sudden, this act happens. It's a series of small acts that develop over time. And actually, donor dominance is a result of donor-centric fundraising that exists without boundaries. When an organization lacks boundaries, or they are clearly communicated to the donors themselves, donor dominance is one of the outcomes that is achieved. Unknowingly, it's the small acts over a period of days, months, or years. Jack, what's your take on that? Yeah, I mean, I think we see it over and over again from even the smallest organizations I have worked with in my consulting practice, where they say they have a donor who says they'll give them $5,000, but they want them to hire a grant writer, for example. Or in large organizations, and I think we've seen this actually played out on the news, where large donors talk to trustees and say, I don't like that person. We need to move that person. They're not really representing the values that I have. Or even in programmatic things. Angela, I'm sure you've seen it in programmatic things, where they say, hey, you're running this social service program. Here is $100,000 or $250,000 to add something onto it. And each of those things results in a problem for the nonprofit organization. Maybe it's mission creep, where you're doing something other than what your original mission was, or maybe it's just this uncomfortable feeling that CEOs and chief development officers feel that, wow, I'm stuck with this major gift donor who is really dictating a lot. So let me play devil's advocate a little bit on this, because we are taught from day one, vote with your dollars, right? I mean, even a little kid is taught, when you go and you spend your babysitting money on a bazooka bubblegum, oh my God, I just dated myself. You're voting with your dollars. And so I feel like that ethos kind of like creeps in or leaks into the nonprofit sector. And I'm wondering if donors even understand this. I mean, Angela, I'm gonna have you kind of repeat what you said is that it's a lot of small acts. And would you think that most people don't even know that this is occurring? It is, and by the time they look up, they think that, oh my gosh, I'm unlucky. I'm experiencing bad luck. This happened out of nowhere. If you trace the steps that led up to the big act, you'll notice it was small daily activities that led up to that. And Julia, you bring up a really great point. Donor-centric fundraising centers the donor. To do that, you have to have organizational boundaries in place so the donor understands how to behave with the organization's clients, staff, leadership, paid and unpaid volunteers without that clear communication in place, expectations well, all right? And that's where Jack and I have found the bulk of the challenges where a donor has crossed the line, they were not aware existed. Interest, I love it. They crossed a line that they did not know existed. Okay, that's like a mind blower because that's pretty dicey. Yeah. Like, Jack, how do you do that dance? How do you discuss it, educate, illuminate? What does that look like? Or do you just have to say, we're gonna leave that money that's gonna go? That money's gonna work? That sometimes I think you have to say that we cannot take that month because of the impact that it has on mission, the mission, the impact that it has on the values of the organization. I mean, certainly in my experience working in healthcare, there were many instances where we would not accept a gift. For example, in healthcare, you don't accept gifts from maybe tobacco. I've seen you say tobacco. Yeah, I mean, and so I remember early on in my career, I would say, but give us a lot of money. And the administration would say, that doesn't matter because they are part of the problem of why people are here in the hospital or alcohol companies. I mean, there are several things that organizations that may not accept gifts from certain things. So, I mean, we've been doing this in a way, but what I think Angela and I are talking about is she mentions boundaries and that's such an important thing. Organizations have to establish boundaries. Otherwise they're gonna be pulled here and pulled there. It's gonna affect their programs, their staffing, their mission, their own values as an organization. All of those things are gonna be affected. Yeah, they'll be changed. So Angela, let's say I'm a donor and I come to you and I think I'm really helping you out because I'm gonna say, hey, Ms. Barnes, I love what you're doing. And I have an extra $20,000 that will help you hire a part-time person to do X. And that hasn't really been on your radar. That's not what's in your strategic plan. What do you do? Like, how do you help educate me or politely turn it away? I mean, what's your response on that? To me as a donor. So we take a couple of steps back Julia and in the midst of our conversation of developing relationships, I've revealed something to you that we have called the donor code of ethics. So it's a natural extension of the donor bill of rights that ASP has in place that has been our guiding star for these years. Jeff and I are taking that full circle. So it's a cycle. The donor code of ethics explains what the organization explains, expects of the donor. Whereas the donor bill of rights explains what the donor can expect of the organization. Yeah. So that cycle is understood. So we'll probably sit down and talk about that sometime in the middle of our building on relationships. And they give acceptance policy. We'll also have language in there that Jack and I have been talking about. Most non-profits have one, but have they been reviewed recently? Are they bulletproof? What's involved? And I also want to just back up a second and say to very nature of fundraisers, we had talked a lot of people pleasers in this industry or we turn into people pleasers. So, Julia, let's look at the power dynamics here. I'm an African-American woman. You're a white woman. You tell me you're coming in and you're going to give me XYZ. If we don't have a communication plan in place as an organization that is embedded within our culture of philanthropy, my CEO may have told you something different that ties my hand that I have to go along with this gift. Or maybe the board's here. So we're not all on the same page. So we lack boundaries. We're people pleasers and we don't have a communication strategy in place. And that's what Jack and I are going to discuss at AFPICon in Toronto. I love it. It couldn't get that far, Julia. It really shouldn't. No, and I'm going to add in, because I'm a white woman, I would add in white savior complex. Yeah, exactly. This concept that's like, oh, I've made all this money and I know the thing and I'm a big corporate titan or whatever. And I'm here to solve your problems. I don't really know. I've never walked that journey, but I'm smarter than everyone because I'm a better checkbook. You know, Julia, the question you asked aren't Angela is a great one. And I asked that same question. I asked students in seminars and things. A donor comes to you and they say, here's $40,000, but I want you to do this with the $40,000. And you're sitting there and you're saying, that's not part of our mission. That's not part of our program services. You know, and I say to people, what would you do? And you know how many, the percentage of people say, accept the money? Yeah. Accept the gift. Accept the gift and then make it happen for that donor. You know, that is just wrong in my opinion because it moves the mission and it moves the programs and it moves the whole organization to something just based on money. You know, and I think what we see with the problems, not only with a donor centric model of fundraising is that, yeah, accept the money. The donor is at the top of the pyramid or even a culture of philanthropy. Listen, I've taught this guy. I've said to people, here's what a culture of philanthropy is. Money moves mission. I mean, we've heard that before and a culture of philanthropy is everyone in the organization understands the importance of getting money. Well, Angela and I are saying, let's look at that. Let's look at that donor centric model. Let's look at what we've been talking about a culture of philanthropy and see what the problems are, the downside. So let me ask both of you and again, this is a real vulnerable question. Have you in your careers been on the other side of that desk where you've been faced with this and you've had to navigate it and what did that look like? Angela, we'll start with you. Hot seat, put your catchers mid up. So probably an example that we were able to work around comes to mind. It was before the pandemic, an individual was going to gift a client about $100,000, this nonprofit client of mine. And it came with changing, not the programming, but the process of how they would help the members of the community that this organization served, which in turn would change the mission. Wow. And I sat down with a couple of board members and I said, you know, if an individual has concerns about how you run your business, that's one thing, because a nonprofit is a business. Yep. So when an individual wants to change your business, first of all, you're probably unlikely to change that person's mind. And two, we need to be considered a gift because you're creating someone who's going to think they're in charge because they change their business model. That's right. And the board member had a background in finance, had ran his own firm and said, no, no, no, no, I'm gonna build this elaborate spreadsheet, I'm gonna sit down and he's gonna see things our way. That did not happen. So luckily the board chair and the ED, the executive director stepped in and said, we can't accept this gift because that ED was fabulous. He said, we do XYZ, anything else is outside of our mission. Now, not all of my stories end on that note. There are other times when staff members have been asked to look the other way. Yeah. There are other times when, I like to put this out there, Jack. I don't know if we discuss this, board members can become dominant donors. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I've seen board members, I've seen board members that are adamant about either having a function, a gala, a program, helping out this person in the community because they have a personal relationship with them. I've seen leadership teams have different conversations with potential donors than the advancement team. No communication strategy in place. Maybe the stewardship plan was not in place. So one donor received something that was spectacular. It was not written anywhere that we were gonna do this. And other donors still left out because they gave a gift that was even more and didn't receive that. So numerous examples, but Jack, go ahead. I'm sure it helps. Listen, I have two examples. One is working in Northern California with a social service agency and someone wanted to give us a piece of land in Texas. Oh God. And I turned the gift down. I said, well, we're not in Texas. We don't know anything about the land. We're not there. And I gotta tell you guys, I went to a board meeting and two board members chastised for not accepting the gift that I should have accepted the gift and then they would have figured out how to do it. But that was outside of our gift acceptance policies. The other thing is when someone wanted to leave a large big quest specifically for a program that we did not have. And Julia asked, how do you handle it? I remember sitting there thinking, I'm gonna give up this huge big quest because we don't have a program. But what I said to the donors, let me help you find an organization who could accept this gift, who does this type of work and built a relationship with him and nurtured him and went with him to meet with that other organization. That's a good relationship thing. But both of those gifts, people said, why would you accept it? And the reason I always say, it's not just about money guys, it's can't just be about the money. You know, it's an absolute, I wanna say this is a brave conversation for the two of you to bring forward to us and really help us frame up some of the things that are going on, but we don't have the language for it or we don't talk about it, or we have these external pressures. As my mother says, the wolves are at the door and so you gotta get the money in, get the money in and that pressure. Can you share a little bit more about where you're gonna be presenting this information? You briefly mentioned it, but I really want people to understand how they can get more of your thought leadership on this. So we are presenting this for the first time at AFP icon in Toronto, April 7th at 9.15 a.m. I believe, Jack. Yeah, it's 9.15. So I think, is that the day of the eclipse? I don't know. Well, I see that AFP has changed their schedule around so that we can go out and watch the eclipse, which I'm gonna have to figure out what kind of glasses I have to wear Julia and Angela. You'll have to do the paper plate with the little dot and turn your back off and that whole thing. You can run back in for another session. What's interesting about our presentation is Julia, we're hoping we open the doors for a deeper discussion that individuals can have with subject matter experts in this lane. We are not subject matter experts on community-centric fundraising, but we know people who are. So we're gonna pass out a resource list afterwards. They can read articles and they can tune in to people who are experts on how to create a hybrid model that we're recommending that would help people protect the organization, protect the staff and protect the donors. Yeah. You know, I think that we want to forward a conversation about a donor code of ethics. We have every organ, AHP, the Association of Healthcare Philanthropy, AFP, case all have ethical standards. And I think now we're saying maybe we need some guidelines that we would hand to our donor, something that would be on our website. Yeah. And so we're gonna be trying to get that conversation going. You know, and Angela knows this because I got an email from someone in Australia who is coming to AFP icon in Toronto and he said, I wanna meet with you guys. I wanna hear more about this, you know, other than what you're presenting. So it's kind of lighting a fire. What do you think, Angela? Are we lighting a fire on their fundraisers? I think we're helping fundraisers have a very difficult conversation. Like Julia said, put language to the icky feeling that they've been feeling when a donor walks into the room and the staff are avoiding that person because something's happened that has not been talked about. Or my generation of fundraisers, our generation of fundraisers, who have gone along with certain behaviors because we felt we had to because one, we're people-pleasers. Two, that was how we closed the gift or it kept another gift coming. And we wanna emphasize, there's nothing wrong with donor certificate fundraising. We love that model. Jack teaches that in the CFRE classes. I work with that with my clients. I've implemented that as an interim role as development director, as a vice chancellor. But when it does not, when it's not contained within a system that has boundaries, it can go off the rails fast. So we'd like to see a hybrid model that uses other fundraising formats along with the big, we're calling the big free management tools that if an organization has in place, donor-centered fundraising is a beautiful thing. Right. You know, the thing is, I know people fundraisers say, oh my gosh, I'm worried about how donors are gonna deal with this, like if we give them a code of ethics. Let me tell you something. Donors respect you. If you've built a solid relationship with them, they're gonna want you to bring this conversation to them. They're gonna wanna hear from, not all of them, some are gonna be, you know, say, no, I don't wanna do that. I think that's too much. But the majority of them, let's trust them. Let's trust our donors to have this conversation. They share our values. They share our vision. They share our mission. Let's not be afraid to bring that community-centered conversation to them or donor-dominance conversation to them or any of the problems that we might see in fundraising. And they will embrace a code of ethics. I really believe that. And can I take you back off of that, Jack? Sure. Donors are interested in the community-centered fundraising model because they have the opportunity to collaborate with residents of the communities that the organization serves. That's right. When we get into Generation X Millennial and other generations, they want to talk to the program officers. They wanna talk to the recipient of your programming. They don't necessarily wanna talk to the fundraiser. So inviting members of the communities that you serve to the table to have certain conversations, they're excited. They wanna see what their efforts are doing. Right. And I think to your point, Angela, that as we have learned from Fundraising Academy, that's the trajectory of success when it comes to relationship management. It's not a one and done. And I think I've been a part of boards that have had the discussion about turning away funding from a very wealthy donor who made their money in something that was antithetical to what the mission of the organization is. Brutal, a million dollar gift. And I mean, it was a fascinating time in my life to be a part of this. But bad business is bad business, right? I mean, if you get the check, you still have to steward that. And so if you're bringing in something that has been fraught with a lot of tension and a lot of problems, that's not gonna go away the minute you cash the check, right? It's only gonna get bigger. It just begins, Julia. It just begins. The never ending spiral. You know, the thing is that, you know, yes, money fuels mission, but so many other things fuel our mission. We fuel it as fundraisers. Our program staff fuels it. Our board members fuel it. And our leadership in the organization, all of those things work together to bring about a change in things that we are trying to impact in our communities, whether it's social services or the arts or animal welfare, whatever it is, those ingredients come together to do good. Absolutely. And we are, you spoke about the savior, the hero complex. We're gonna touch on that too, Julia, within our presentation. We're recommending that instead of seeing, there's nothing wrong with centering the donor as the hero of a story, but not the hero of the organization or the hero that's gonna save a community. It's very different. Developing partners that will help carry out the mission of the organization is a healthier way of looking at that. So because if a donor feels that their only purpose is to cut a tech, that's it. We take power and influence in them lending that and their time and their talent off the table. We're just focused on the asset solicitation and closing the deal. It's about building a relationship. Yeah. And the hero of these stories is the family that moves from being unhoused to finding a home, the child who learns to draw at the art museum that goes through the class. All of those things, they're the heroes. And everybody else, the fundraiser, the donor, the staff, the program officers, we're all supporting characters. All supporting actors. We're all supporting actors. Exactly. Oh my God, all supporting. Well, the two of you are the heroes of the nonprofit show. Let me tell you, Angela Barnes, NBA CFRE with Carter, Carter Global, check them out. It's a fascinating approach and I'm gonna say menu of services that Carter helps guide our nonprofits and NGOs across the planet. Very, very interesting work. Giacolato CFRE, of course, Fundraising Academy. One of the big minds over there, I like to say at Fundraising Academy, the two of you are gonna be presenting this and we only have 30 minutes today. You're gonna go into some more things in depth. Again, April 7th, 9.15 a.m. in Toronto at the AFP Icon Conference. Did I get that right? Yes. And Julia, I have a question for you. Are we gonna see you at Cultivate in early May? You know, I'm speaking at another conference in Boston. I know and I had made that commitment a long time ago, but Meredith Tarion will be there broadcasting live along with all of you and all your teams. So the nonprofit show will be there. I will not be there. I will be at another conference, like I said, across on the other ocean. Well, we're gonna get together. The three of us are gonna get together one of these days at the same place. Absolutely. Well, the two of you are just gems in our sector and I am so grateful that you are out there doing the heavy lift, having the difficult conversations and really helping us to grow our sector that impacts us all. And so thank you, thank you, thank you for this thought leadership. And thank you to our presenting sponsors. They include Blumerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Nonprofit Thought Leaders, Staffing Boutique, Your Part-Time Controller, 180 Management Group, Funding Academy at National University, JMT Consulting, Nonprofit Nerd and Nonprofit Tech Talk. Again, these are the folks that allow us to have these conversations and they're not always easy, but they are incredibly, incredibly important. I cannot wait to hear what your experiences are after you make this presentation. I think you're gonna, both of you are gonna shake things up and people are gonna come out of the woodwork with their stories and their thoughts and their responses. So thank you, thank you, thank you. And their thoughts and their responses. And so we might need to get you back on as a follow-up because this is such, I think this is such a point in our culture with this massive transference of wealth that we are in the middle of in the United States. A $90 trillion transference of wealth, it's been estimated. I think it's actually larger than that. And so this is a real concern and it's been brilliant to have you on. You know, every day we end the nonprofit show with a message and it means, I'm telling you, it means something to me every day in a different way. I hear it in a different way. And today it means something because it's talking about the health of our sector. And our message goes like this, to stay well so you can do well. Thank you so much. We'll see you back here for another episode.