 Welcome back to the Donahue Group. We're delighted that you could join us for another interesting half-an-hour of conversation about the great issues of the day Joining me today Ken Risto, who is the social studies coordinator for the Sheboygan area school district close. We're getting closer with my time Coordinated or semi coordinated, you know what whatever there you go Tom Pineski math professor at the University of Wisconsin Sheboygan Cal Potter Mon vivant retired state retired state senator Retired from the Department of Public Instruction in charge of libraries. So and I'm just a humble lawyer So I'm in lucky to be in such us Auguste companies. So and boy, do we have a lot to talk about so And you just do need to tone down but we had Taken bets at the on our last Donahue show state episode about the AG's race Came out. I think kind of as we predicted, but I was pretty stunned by the numbers Peg Louten schlager got as one of my law partners would say got schvets A true schvetsing I Didn't think it'd be that bad and I my own view is Kathleen Faulk did not run a real interesting or Dynamic campaign in any way shape or form. So I was kind of surprised It was the only at the end that I think she decided that really needed to raise the DUI issue and the ethics issue I think the accusations about the Delays at the crime lab really would have I think really resonated with people I mean, that's the kind of stuff people get their teeth into in a Republican candidate. It's really reason. Exactly I'd probably rubbed off and I think and I think I know I actually am glad I still have my shirt because I'd I really thought Until you know, I didn't I thought all the way the end that Peg was going to prevail I was pretty surprised when I listened to the election results and they were talking about it You know throughout the evening saying that she was coming from behind if at best and But the last week and a half I think I think maybe a lot of Democrats said, you know Who's our strongest candidate because if she's got a slog through the DUI and slog through the delays in the crime lab And I thought Falk made a nice point as an executive saying, you know, you can't use lack of money as an excuse for not getting the job Done, I mean, I've had to do that all the time as a county executive and you just prioritize what you need to pay for And I think I think some are along the way some a lot of Democrats changed their mind I That was a that was an excellent issue and the Republicans framed it And I think Falk got in on the framing of the issue and I think loud and shlager was just There was no response except to say there was no money. I was told to cut my budget and that's what I did I mean, it's what once you answer the issue you're done And and I do think that was a final nail in the coffin. So and I think public tolerance for the chief law enforcement officer and breaking the law that are really drunk driving Is one where people maybe like to drink in Wisconsin But they don't want their sheriff or they don't want their AG to be Inviting overly and I think there was less tolerance for that Yeah, I think the car ethics so use of the car to really talk to some folks and that was hardly a representative pole But the drunk driving well, you know was once hopefully she learned her lesson But when you start looking at the use of the car people just in this day and age Just don't have a whole lot of tolerance for the old perks of public service And it's too bad because I think peg loud and shlager has been a wonderful public servant over the years She has pretty much dedicated her life to to public service and and has been a good and decent person So she did well in places where they really knew her. She did very well in front elect where she Was is from and where she represented those folks in the legislature. She did well in Sheboyin County She did very well in Sheboyin County So, you know, I think people who knew her did overlook some of her transgressions But elsewhere in the state where they didn't know her while there was not a lot of sympathy What did she do in Dane County? She did better than expected because so everybody thought that here the county exec But I think the problem there is anybody who is of mayor or county exec Brings along after years in office baggage of alienate people and I think that was that was problem But Kathleen had it in her own home community Well in a Kathleen Falk I think is a strong candidate Even now though, I don't know much about the difference much between Van Holland and Booker I thought Booker's comments on election night about not being willing to mortgage his life in order to run An election and hopefully we'll have some time to talk about money and and so forth and in our electoral lives these days, but Charlie's psych show when you had Booker and We being punished and It sounded like it was two kids playing in the sandbox and throwing sand at each other really and Booker just came off To my mind. It's just a little more mean-spirited I was surprised it wasn't closer, but they both sounded like there's you know, that's my saying no That's my saying and you know back and forth and then it just I thought What's going on here? These are it? This is a TV. This is the radio show and it's going out over Milwaukee So I saw a transcript of a pretty nasty exchange. I didn't know it came out of Maybe that menu or maybe it was a debate where they I think there was a lot of on to talk about it Yeah, I saw the debate on public television and and it was the same sort of dynamic going on between the two of them And I thought you know wow the Democrats are running the cameras and they're gonna have they're gonna have a lot of stuff to be running on In the months to come. Yeah, well any ideas any predictions? In the AG's race as we go down the line here I think Kathleen Falk it has been a strong campaigner I didn't think she did much in her AG campaign, but when she entered the governor's race late in 2002 she Picked up a lot of steam pretty quickly, and I think she's a good campaigner. I don't know anything about Van Hollen He's got a nice tagline, and I forget it's on on those great big signs Something about restoring integrity or whatever so maybe trying to tarf Falk with with the Latin schlager brush if I can say that but What do you think? I think one of the problems that Kathleen will have will be the accusation that she has not been Real prosecutor in her career even though she spent what 16 years in the Attorney General's office as an assistant to Attorney General She was the public intervener and did a great deal in the area of environmental law But I think it's going to take a little sophistication on the part of the voter To realize that the Attorney General doesn't spend every day in court I mean Attorney General is a chief officer of all the several hundred employee agency and makes administrative decisions On a daily basis and doesn't spend like I said time and every day in the court But I think that's probably what Ben Holland is going to probably hang his hat on the fact that he's been an active Prosecutor and she's been sort of the environmental attorney, right? Right, and I mean we do have 72 district attorneys offices. I think in the state and there are the prosecutors I mean the Attorney General it was odd for Lauten schlager to have done the the trial of the hunter up north and That may have been done primarily for you know, political reasons. I You know me. I'm the neutral person in this group But I thought it was terrible political grants standing and Of course if I were the prosecutor in that county I'd be pretty pretty unhappy about it or pretty happy Because if you don't get a conviction, yeah, then it's going to be held to pay. Yeah, but yeah, I don't know I don't know how it's gonna. I don't know how it's gonna play out. It may have something to do with green winds Will he sweep along will there be a Republican tie that will sweep Van Hollen in? depends on public I Think perception on some of the groups that will be supporting Van Holland I wanted to ads that's bring run knowledge from manufacturers in commerce The manufacturers WMC's is Characterizing her role as public intervener is nothing more than providing nuisance lawsuits for the private sector Which when I saw that ad I was I was livid because in many cases I mean there are companies just like individuals in this world some many of them most are good But there are some out there who will pollute water and do things that they shouldn't be doing and not all of those Lawsuits that she pursued over the years were frivolous lawsuits, but if WMC is going to spend literally big bucks Supplemental to Van Hollen's whatever wealthy supposedly has I don't know if Kathleen will be able to muster the dollars now Well environmental groups come out and do their independent expenditures like WMC is I don't know yeah Well, that's tough I mean that's again an issue that has to be framed just right and if WMC is already Framed it and she's answering it could be potentially pretty tough and Educating people in an election year as to what the Attorney General's office does. I mean, it's a big complex Agency or even what the public intervener is it's been gone for so many years a lot of people probably don't even know what it is Exactly exactly. Well that leads us into Just a couple of different things Hopefully we'll have a chance to talk about the political we're back in the political ad Season and we would talk about money in politics. We never connect the dots Which is what percentage of that money goes to TV stations? Not this one goodness knows because this is a public television That's right, you know, we want different wallpaper, but Someday we'll get that but only through a private endowment gift. I think TV stations Make a whole lot of money I mean most of I that I can see of what is spent in political campaigns is on really nasty misleading unhelpful Television ads that contribute nothing to the political discourse that encourage shallow thinking and emotional responses and really don't help us be very good citizens But in any event Let's we'll talk about that in just a second a new pullout today says that the gap is closing between Green and Doyle Green has had Boy, he sure has had his troubles recently in terms of his his money the decision of the Dink County judge to Not to stay the elections board decision Doyle seems to have been tarred with that again By having a lawyer from his campaign contacting election members of the board What do you think? Where's the where's where are we going on this? I'm not necessarily looking for a Doyle Green prediction. I think it's a little early I think that I think it's a race that's clearly in play, but I just I'll just volunteer that since Green has lost the money he could Get this in the public eye as and consider that PR for him You know the more I bring this issue forward the more it doesn't cost me anything and the more I could kind of Tar You're I don't think it's working that way. I think you're absolutely right Oh, I don't think it's working that way. I think that a green were smart I don't know who's running his campaign, but he should be sent, you know packing is what you would say is I disagree with this decision, you know almost like Al Gore here. I disagree with this decision When two, you know several years ago when the current mayor of Milwaukee wanted to transfer, you know His funds from his congressional campaign into the mayoral campaign in Milwaukee He was allowed to do it clearly Democrats are changing the rules which plays into his whole theme that the Doyle the Doyle is corrupt and I'll continue to raise money by you know He's not going to say this publicly by having Air Force one Air Force two continue to come in But then the vice president was just in the other day again raising funds for him And we'll raise funds and we'll end this campaign is going to be about Whatever and you move on but when you announce that we're going to take this all the way to the Supreme Court You're just keeping the issue in front of people and you and you're in your end You just I don't see how that's a win-win for him Well, interestingly enough Doyle was the one who brought the challenge to bear it being allowed to to bring that That money from the federal to the state level And I think what I think what the Dane County judge said is things have changed because of the McCain fine gold act right that just isn't allowed anymore So in fact, it's not the Democrats changing at least the local or state Democrats changing the rules There's a new federal law now that that would prohibit that and it that seems to make at least some amount of sense to me But that's going to take about 14 news cycles before that kind of percolates in the average voters head right Where if you can say hey listen the rules were used to be when it was a Democrat running That a state law that wasn't just a state law if the PACs are not in the state You can't transfer the money and The some of these some of the monies came from no packs out of the state if it were in the state It could be transferred. I thought that was no issue there well actually the The administrative code in 1977 according to the judge's decision did allow that transfer and that's why Barrett was able to do it in Oh, I'm out of state right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and the huge amount of PAC money that green is Transferring in is out of state money of the 587,000 or so 467,000 is from Don't quote me on the numbers, but I mean it's fairly close are Is out of state money and so again? There's just this huge infusion of cash in a 30 million dollar campaign most of it's spent on television ads and And what's the issue? There's no issue that's resonating. I mean we're not talking about jobs We're not talking about health care or the environment or or anything like that I mean either can either but my point real quickly was you know It's five hundred eight six thousand dollars you get five hundred eight six people to show up at a thousand dollar plate dinner And that money's already made up and you've moved on in the issues in front of people So I guess don't know what's the point of saying I'm gonna go all the way to the Supreme Court Yeah, but I mean neither neither candy was helpful in the public television debates about Getting real about the budget. I thought both both gentlemen were really pushed hard by the audience Which were average citizens evidently. Well, none of the ads. Oh, no It's like the sandbox analogy that I'm just before it's just throwing sand at each other I think what's so sad about this whole thing is that? Whoever becomes governor is just gonna be probably so shredded in image that that person's not gonna be very popular To start out as against the new governor or the existing governor into a new term. Yeah, it's sad Well, interestingly enough, I'm sorry No, I thought I thought Green was actually taking a couple of steps forward when he started resurrecting The issue where he's at the hockey game, I believe it is and they're talking about yeah the admissions issue I think the ad is like all ads on both sides are a little deceptive When you look behind what the two inch intuition increases and all those types of things But at least it was an issue and I think there was the other one where the kids were leaving from behind him Yeah, which is kind of a fine gold-ish type of approach to campaigning I thought finally he was actually focusing on some issues that might get some traction for him And the next rotation came around and that's kind of that seems to be gone for them Well, maybe we'll come back to those things because I think those things are going to serve him far better than Saying that Doyle's corrupt. I mean everybody again. I think most people think they're both corrupt Highly negative this all this corruption emphasis in the Green campaign because of the The Edelman gate and that type of thing because those ads work and I think that poll numbers You've just cited their example of that the gap between green and and Doyle is closing and it's closing because People respond to the negatives. They're mostly apolitical. They don't pay much attention to the issues They don't know About the intricacies of how tuition is determined I mean, it's the Board of Regents that determines tuition It isn't the governor that determines tuition, but he does appoint these people. So, you know, that's that's But there are a lot of situations here that Really go back in my mind to the whole need for campaign financing and we talked off here How a lot of politicians are getting on the on the bandwagon, but they haven't proven that In past performance that we should really do something but here's an example in the governor's race of why we should have I mean you're talking about ads being run by by green and by Doyle because of well, either it's the pack money that green's taking or it's the Edelman my contribution to Doyle or whatever It's big money being given politicians that if we had campaign financing Public financing and campaign reform we wouldn't have this plethora of negative ads of who's the biggest crook And that's what's sad about us. Yeah, and this is Wisconsin Yes, where have we come in ten years that the ads are all about who the biggest crook is Well, the Wisconsin democracy campaign reported the results of a poll Belden-Rusinello and Stewart survey on on political reform Wisconsin concerns and this is recent the Wisconsin citizens are most concerned by a large percentage with gas prices Now those have come down since the survey Healthcare state taxes and the influence of money and politics are all within six percentage points So the influence of money and in politics is an issue that beats out jobs Corruption in state government public schools and the economy which I thought was very interesting 74% of Wisconsin residents believe that unless we limit the influence of money and government elected officials Will not be able to keep their promises on issues that are important So there just seems to be this huge Disconnect and it's been ongoing between what people think about how awful money in in campaign says to the reality of Who's buying and paying for these elections and what did they get you know, it's I don't know if it's so much a disconnect as both sides do it And so both the green camp and the Doyle camp say well, we're the only two players in town They're going to choose between one or the other and they both are packing out and taking all kinds of money from from big contributors So until we get enough public pressure on the legislative branch of people who have really Stellerly put this off the committee and not voted on it They need to be stepping forward with some action too. All right. Well, and this does and I did I normally don't cut things out of the newspaper, but This one just sent me around the bend it was in the journal recipe For Snickers tort no Legislators join ethics cause late the hypocrisy award of the year Republicans who killed the bill now use the issue in campaigns smart I Just can't get over this The Senate bill paying attention Senate bill one Senate bill one passed by the Senate last year 28 to 5 to combine the state ethics board and the state elections board together Bipartisan support in the Senate which was pretty good all on its own Absolutely is stalling the assembly now three people who voted to stall it Not anywhere near our districts are now using that as campaign to say that when if you reelect me I'm gonna support this and to the journal sentinels credit. It was front-page news on Sunday When This upsets me How is this gonna play out? Where's the where are the leaders? I guess is where I What do we do? I think it just shows that many politicians have a low esteem of their own voters and I think they think I can be on both sides of this issue with impunity and Until we hold people more accountable for flip-flopping and trying to have a boat in both pockets They'll get away with this type of thing I think people just don't pay enough attention or don't again hold their elected official accountable for playing games with their Their viewpoints and their views Yeah, it's a slap in the face to the electorate who voted for these people. Yeah, it'll it'll be interesting to see Yeah, I mean for you. It's an issue for me. I don't think it's an issue. I Mean it just is that's what it is. You know, I don't get upset about that. I Just think Because you're just so jaded Sometimes I'm I'm on that side. Okay, I'm looking at her saying this is something that upsets you I mean, I expect these people to be hypocrites Yeah, I just have gotten so I don't know I think probably realistic about how politicians are going to behave and Cynical maybe I guess is the word About some of these how the behavior some of these people gonna be so I asked you actually a question there Yeah, that's oh well. Are you know the issue doesn't bother me because I mean that goes on Nationally I see it all the time. You say one thing and For the four they say one thing in August and another thing in September and a third thing in November or in October It happens all the time So and I can see this this just seems fairly shameless to me and I guess maybe my concern is There's nothing wrong with being a politician We live in a partisan democracy and it has served us well for 200 and some years But you need to take the step from being a politician to being a Legislator to being a person who wins an election to a person who is able to govern and I don't know how and when that's happening and with the quality of of Political discourse and the honesty that we bring to that. I don't know I am rambling on and on and it's just it is a matter of Some concern to me at least And I'm glad it's not to you because that means the end of the world is not coming and and all will be well You see you need to have Candidates whether they be in the Republican Party of the Democratic Party who will say As I've you know advocated a couple of times I'm only going to take us you know no more than a hundred dollars from a from anybody or whatever the number might be I'm only going to take it from the people in my district That's it and I'm going to publish that on my website We're going to update it as often as we possibly can so you can see who's paying for this campaign And I'm not going to allow any other money outside of the people that I represent And I think if you actually ran a campaign like that, I would like to think that you know Yeah, you probably at least at a local level you might be able to Get the message across enough that people might start resonating with that I mean it works for Herb Cole in a perverse kind of way because he's so rich you can say I can I can be my own man I'm not going to be beholden anybody And people I mean vote for her coal and they I mean hardly a sterling senator. I mean Nice enough guy, but So I'm just wondering if obviously he can buys on TV ads and everybody pays attention to TV ads I suppose in a certain sense that they're there and they're sort of the back row noise while we eat dinner and things Well, I saw I saw just an interesting table Again, I think I think the Wisconsin democracy campaign put out about the Amount of money that was spent in the election and the result. This is in the September primary Falk spent eight hundred eighty eight thousand to Loudoun Schlager's four hundred forty four thousand. I mean it's an interesting number Down the line In about ninety percent of the elections The person who spent more money one and I think that is just a reality and that takes us back to what is real Campaign reform we have a US a United States Supreme Court that equates money with free speech to me that Nothing could be further from the truth But as long as that is the the template In which the Supreme Court makes decisions. I don't know what real Campaign financing reform will look like I think I think it needs to be substantive because I think the scenario that Can portrayed may work on a very local level Yeah, once you start getting to state Senate races and above where they use television Yeah, the 32nd negative ad will assassinate your opponent if you say it Over and over and buy enough time and dominate the airwaves. It's just proven money repetitive negativism works and Just is reality the only way you get at that cancer of that continuing to be prevailing is To cut off the spigot here and the spigot is the special interest groups and send getting into public financing and putting Some types of limitation to force people to go door-to-door and do the other things That get people into real contact with people the 32nd television ad is now the norm and When I ran we never use television because we were too far from Milwaukee or Green Bay now the Senate candidates here do I mean, can you imagine the amount of money that's being spent on Green Bay and then Milwaukee stations to influence that relatively small number of people in Sheboygan County It's amazing. It's amazing. And when you have just countywide races We still are able to avoid that and I think I think in the mayoral race didn't shram spend quite a bit more money I think he had more money than Perez and I think he spent it and so it doesn't necessarily Particularly at that local level really mean that but boy it it really is It really is very tough. So I'm speaking at a chamber of commerce candidate education forum next week if if all goes well and the chambers put on a fabulous Presentation of speakers and issues, but I'm telling you if you want to run for public office these days male or female Whatever it's it's tough. It's just a it's a it's a hardball game And I don't think it serves the democracy particularly well. Well, I get to end on that nice speech Thank you for joining us and folks. We'll see you again. I hope next month