 Hi everybody, I am Matthew Miller and this is our Fedora Council monthly video meetings Fedora Council is our top-level governance and leadership body for the project and we try to do our business mostly not by Meetings because meetings are terrible, but turns out they're inevitable so we have them every week or so on IRC and You know chat-based text meetings where we kind of go through tickets and make sure things are advancing plus We have these video meetings every month where we generally check in with somebody doing something Interesting or exciting or important or terrible in the project and see how that thing is going and what we can do to help Or thwart it no help help mostly thwartings not really the agenda so this This week We are excited to have mark Pearson from Lenovo with us and john Rapizo, I think that's the right last name Who will be a voice from the heavens? He doesn't have a camera on his system And we're going to talk about the upcoming news about Lenovo shipping Fedora workstation on some of their laptops And what that means how that came about And what's going on We've got a bunch of Fedora council members on the call here and mark Hi mark. Welcome. I'm glad to know you Yes, how's it going, buddy? I do spend a lot of time talking to mark recently Yeah, usually I'm usually I'm sending you boring Lenovo documents. I need to check her. Okay Yes, there is some legal stuff to deal with. Um, let's let's let's step that aside for now. So, um, tell me About yourself and how this got started and what's going on Ah, so, yeah, I'm not Pearson. Uh, I worked so I worked for the pc linux team Along with john who's also on the call. He's he's like my sidekick. He specializes on the workstations Um, so I I've been sort of at Lenovo for a while But I joined the linux team just actually last last august and it's it's been a blast. It's it's uh, it's it's been fun Um, so our aim is essentially to get Linux running on our platforms. We do think pads, uh, think stations and And so my my my goal is to get Linux running on those as as well as possible. So, you know trying to get, uh Other vendors to contribute their drivers upstream do firmware on lvfs to figure out the bugs work with the distros And and all that sort of thing. So lots of pentacles going off everywhere, which is fun and yeah, so I was gonna say I was gonna say we've we've been working with the red hat guys previously on rail And I'm not actually sure where the first conversation happened with fedora I'm actually gonna bounce that question to matthew because I don't think I was on that very first conversation But I know it came up and it was like can we do fedora on some of our platforms? It's like, yeah So that then happened, right? Yeah That was um, edvard, uh, your predecessor and yeah Uh and um, christian who's uh runs the desktop team at fedora, uh at red hat and works on the fedora desktop team um Had a conversation and it came out of that and I got pulled in when things were already underway, which is an exciting way To something big big news like that Yeah, uh, so, um I'm glad it's gotten gotten to where it is. I was just gonna comment Maybe this is getting into the weeds all of a sudden But I one of the things I found super interesting talking to you and working with Lenovo is um A lot of people when they think of fedora, they have the idea that we are, you know A thousand programmers who are writing an operating system sitting, you know hacking on c code all of the time Um, that's actually just cheetah robinson the rest of us All right So, um, but but actually what fedora does is integrate all this code that mostly other people write and so We you know, we we do some programming and there's a lot of you know infrastructure to tie things together But mostly we're an integrator. We get things from somewhere else and put them into a polish package that makes fedora And so it struck me that Lenovo is actually very similar You've got a lot of vendors and you specify parts, but you know, like you're not making the fingerprint reader Somebody's making the fingerprint reader to your specifications And so in a lot of ways The the things about you know fedora making sure everything is open source in our distribution is kind of what you're doing In making sure everything works with linux in in a Lenovo laptop It is a lot of going to your vendors and saying I need something that's going to a fingerprint reader That can have an open source driver get that upstream And so so I guess my life's easy because I just get to focus on a few platforms. You have to focus on everything out there completely, right? That's true. Um, although, you know, um, a lot of that is, you know, best effort. That's the other thing that we Can we can say community community support? No, but that's true I don't do as much coding as I'd like to because a lot of it is like you say it's it's more Project managing more. It's more pulling together all the pieces made there We do do some and and you know, we have some projects to To get some features things that maybe are on windows that we want to have On linux for we've we've started out. We have some things coming out So we do some and we're trying to get our team more involved with actually actively debugging and contributing to changes There's some things that go in that are quite platform specific and it's like no Lenovo should be able to contribute actively to those we've we've still got a lot of both to do in that area Can you give me something like that? Sorry, like the applications? Oh, yeah, or yeah, sure. So we have a couple going on at the moment I don't think either confidential. They're not upstream yet though. So we have one which is think lmi It it's using the wmi interface to go and get and set Buy off settings something that a lot of customers want to be able to go and retrieve past information So I'll be able to change the bios settings from a control panel running and a gooey control panel somewhere Yeah, so yeah, and then we'll have it So it yeah, it's part of its kernel driver So you can do that and then we'll have an application that lets you do it makes it quite not a very nice Utility to use and something's a little bit more user friendly. I don't think we have the gooey side yet That will come we're still getting some experience with canone and and that so Yeah, but but yeah, I know we've we've had quite a few people who asked for that And then the other I think i'm okay to talk about this, but yeah on our new platforms. We have different thermal modes sort of low medium high and So they all work off function keys right now And so I've got a kernel driver that working on so that you can then have a user space gooey That's how things it's a little again process But these are things that you just hopefully make and then it's a little bit nicer experience on our on our That talks so it can adjust it between Between run cool and set my desk on fire levels. Exactly. Yeah. I yeah, I've got a marshmallow. It means cooking. Yeah So yeah, and then we have you know, there'll be more more of that come especially as the team builds up more experience Um, well that application be open source then is that the Yeah Yes, no, well the only one Yeah, no, it mostly is that that we we've got one going on for w1 Where that might not be enough see That we won't we'll have to make that out of fedora and that's just legal sec That's w w a and and that's basically putting a cell modem in your laptop, right? That's the yeah And it's a it's a tricky plan to solve. We really look to doing it open open source, but It we couldn't find a way to do it It's a tough one. Maybe maybe someone's smarter than us. We'll figure it out afterwards. But uh, but anyway, so yeah I can't sit down and say 100 everything will be open source But from my point of view everything that we can reasonably So I actually have um, I'm kind of just taking some random directions and I apologize for that But that's how I do things. Um, the the applications. Have you looked at will that be a standalone? Do you have a preference? I guess will that be a standalone like think pad branded application? Or will it be integrated like into the gnome and kd control panels as think pad specific setting I think it has to be case by case my gut feeling is more integrated But uh, it honestly I think is going to be a case by case depends whether gnome wants it Or not. Uh, I can see we might have sets of packages that are maintained separately that are not part of that I think Yeah, you know what it's like with the community I think it might be a case of some of the start off and then once they've proven that they actually useful might Yeah, I think we're playing that very much by ear I can definitely see like some of the bios settings being things that you want easily exposed um, and maybe in the settings and other things that belong in a Beware if you change this you should know what you're doing panel that might not be the main settings. Yeah Yeah, I think at least our initial one that's going to be a separate standalone application Um, just part because that's easier to do and get out there for customers who want it now and then but yeah, it's I have you know, if we can make it so it's You know, I mean, oh, yeah, there's no reason not to Um Going back to the putting components together thing One of the things people keep asking about is the fingerprint reader and whether that's going to start working on I know it's I don't understand why people are so excited about the fingerprint reader But apparently you all are so we're going to talk about it some more. Um, I was going to say I was when we did the interview with Jason I think this is the one that I've got to set up on. Is the video going to work? I didn't want to do this with Jason because I figured a video demonstration would suck if it went wrong But so here x1 carbon 7. All right, we will wake it up and There you go So that's Is will this start working on older hardware as well? And so I wondered if you could tell a little bit about like the process Like how do you get the finger the fingerprint reader doesn't work? How do you get it to work? Are you writing code and getting it upstream or? So this this one in particular. So yes Call out synaptics because they added the support for the device that's on on the seven so they and So fingerprint readers. There's two different types. There's match on host match on chip match on host is Another vendor has I think looked open sourcing it But it's hard to do their vendors are really wary about it because they're worried about it being reverse engineered Hat and losing their their IP and all the rest. So the match on chip is all done in firmware. So there's So that's what this device is match on chip and so synaptics. I think we're happier to do do that um It's interesting. They haven't done it for all their devices I know there's some of our platforms that works and some it doesn't it depends on which synaptics devices used Which is a shame. I've been trying to chase up why the other one isn't done I I know there's a reason. I just don't actually know what it is but it's yeah, so I think It's a little bit that That battle of getting it done So this This comes from then I will say actually so for the so that was for the firmware point of it getting synaptics to Make that available. But I worked with Benjamin Berg red hat engineer And I mean he did all the hard work on this. So he he did a new version of f print b and live f print And so I I I was helping in the testing sense But no so that that that there was coding coming on from the community to and he was working with synaptics Use their new apis and things like that. So it is a joint effort Um But that's uh, yeah, and then this also works by then in the future you tell synaptics. We want We want things that match So drivers when you work. So yeah, what happens is I I go to yeah And I go to the hardware team and and it's getting better And and I'm a little bit nervous because I know I went and I checked that all our 2020 platform should have this part in Right, I was like nature is and I got the confirmation So all our 2020 platforms should have this part in and if one doesn't I'm Yeah, so we'll see but um all the hardware is just coming out now, right? So but they should all do and that the quest goes one of the things It's happening, you know, but which is good is that our hardware team does when they Source their parts they make sure the vendor has Linux support. That's that's been a big change Not perfect yet. It's kind of it's quite a shift, but uh, it's it's much much better And that that becomes part of building new laptop making making sure that we do have that ability and That really reduces the headaches when you want to do a new when you want to release because The vendors claiming Linux support that makes life a lot easier and it's interesting about the firmware. I mean, so Uh, the firmware on chip basically, I mean, so there's a binary proprietary Software that's running on the chip. That's not part of fedora, but is a redistributable blob that we put there theoretically the on host one could Be completely open and there could be an open source fingerprint reader that somebody would would would make that would Be there, but um, we're not there yet Nobody has yet yet It's one of the areas where fedora lives in the compromise between your free software down to the hardware level and um, yeah Some of these binaries that yeah, it's difficult and in some ways with vendors using firmware more. There's Uses of minuses to that right, but I think the pluses is at least we get more functioning hardware for yeah, exactly functioning hardware is Yeah I know and I open source everywhere be fabulous, but But I've got a couple more questions. I might hold and reserve, but let's see if anybody else has anything They want to ask you Ben you are following mailing list discussions. Did you have anything that I haven't covered that you think we should talk about? I mean you covered the fingerprint reader and that's that was the bulk of it Yeah, so I think it was on the yeah, there were quite a lot of good questions that came from the mailing list and from Your blog posting as well. That was that was fun. So lots of good questions on that All right, one of the other ones is so go ahead Ben I was gonna say, you know, maybe it's a little bit of you know There's some question like why workstation and why not, you know, one of the other spins You know or something more customized like, you know, why workstation out of the box I think it's gonna appeal to the voice from the gods for this one. John. Do you have an answer for that one? Yeah, sure so We found that on the workstation side, we've got a lot of a lot of customers using Linux and including fedora on their develop high-end development systems Doing data science work for instance and a lot of them want the ability to be able to Go and run this on a high powered mobile system with a really strong gpu to do that work So we're really looking to enable it just to give that flexibility for the customers Really, it's it's largely just the market clearly wants it And we're trying to beat that need um I think we also have a source of confusion and actually this this came up as a problem with how um How linoa was going to advertise this? We called it fedora workstation when we started doing the fedora next edition things because we wanted to have the implication that fedora It was a powerful desktop system that was kind of used for makers and creators as opposed to like a a thin client consumer media os right and I think that was a fine decision at the time However, it runs into the distinction of linovo sell some of their systems as Workstation systems and some of them as you know laptop desktop notebook systems and the workstation is a particular class of higher powered hardware um, I don't know it might be might be interesting actually especially as I think the focus of that that fedora workstation group has Never really coalesced around just providing to the higher end People in the team have always wanted to reach the broader audience And obviously in a lot of ways with this on mobile laptops. We are reaching the broader audience so Maybe it's time to rename Fedora workstation to something a little more general. That's something I hadn't really thought about that's probably worth talking about um, but I think the reason Linovo is shipping you the thing that is our main desktop offering in the project is the same reason we decided to have um as part of again this fedora next thing where we decided instead of It used to be that we would have a multi Just the desktop dvd that had like, you know five or six different desktop environments on it that you could choose from And we decided to focus on one And A lot of that is just because we want we want everything to work We want everything to be polished and having having that focus makes that possible in the way that having five or six different options It just becomes literally exponentially more difficult to support as you as you add each Each new thing so Fedora workstation is the one that we as a project put the most into It's the one that red hat has a lot of resources devoted to and I think that's the makes the most sense for a partnership like this That said I certainly expect that kde or xfce Or one of our more tailored spins like the computational neuroscience lab like those should run wonderfully on this hardware as well Even if it's not that are not the focus I expect a lot of people will happily do that. Yeah I do think that means that one of the things we should focus on in those groups is making it easier To get a system that comes out of the box with Fedora workstation installed and say I'd like to check a box and enable to install the kde desktop Which we don't have a good right Thing for that right now. That's probably some work We can do to kind of help the people who are working on those desktops Make it easy for them to also not say, okay You want kde now reinstall this version of it because our distribution of those desktops has been Installer focused at this point. So that's okay for us yeah We have got a question from the gallery from edward. Yes, go ahead ask hi Well, my question is is more related to to the terms of support Because most people was interested in how much time will we be supporting science? the release a pace of fedora is each six months More or less So people were interested in how will be the support scheme from From the fedora workstations in Lenovo Sure, so so Honestly from a Lenovo point of view, we're still figuring out those details So I don't actually have anything official. I can share we we have to talk to teens and and figure that one out I we're not going to be doing a new release every week. I mean fedora moves really fast I know if you take 32 and there's updates immediately So we're not going to be doing a new image to manufacturing every week Because that just we can't we can't do that but I I'd expect us to move with your major releases and And my guess is there'll be some Some involvement if you get major security things if you get inspector meltdown We'll probably have to pick that up That kind of thing but yeah, honestly, I'm afraid I don't have a good answer for you right now as to how we're going to to do handle that update We're still figuring that out My my expectation is that if someone comes, you know three years from now with a problem And they say my fedora 32 system is not working Yeah, the first thing you will say is update to the latest fedora release and then see how it goes um Yeah, so then from our point of view we take your we take the release and and we we just we're going to that now we you know we we go to a test process and And make sure everything we've been doing this before for the order to release, but we go through a fine one now And so every time we do an update that test cycle happens And that takes a bunch of people and resources and time so that we have to we do have to do a bit of a balance But yeah, I don't want to be shipping Three-year-old distros on a platform that that's not that's not going to be good for anybody Um, so yeah, we'll we'll have we'll have something sensible for for our users, right? That's something that that's the plan. We just don't actually have it nailed down. Yeah any other Well, I'm presumably for upgrades there. Um, they'll just just be prompted like any other fedora No, I'm use of when there's an image version available Sorry, right though. They'll get the same the same prompts to update internal inside the os The the answer for mark is really just around how we'll Update the image like as for door for door 33 comes out to 34 when we'll iterate it And we we will have some announcements later in the over the summer here in north america to Address those questions as well I like how you qualified summer as north american summer That's that's important. We've got we've got two australians on this call And other other people in south america as well, so yeah to be fair the term australians still live in the north of the hemisphere though You know related to that that is worth pointing out though What you're getting when you get the system Is exactly the same as if you went and installed the door 32 yourself, but we've got some documents in there That's it. So so yeah, if your your question about the updates It's the same as you would get If you just went and installed if you went and bought it with windows wiped it out and stored for 32 So it all behaved the same way. There's nothing we're thinking in the way any other questions people I mean, I know the answer this but people have asked about The windows key on the keyboards And whether those will have a logo or something else on those It's uh, it's exactly the same hardware That's right. That's what I was saying. Yeah same hardware every it's uh, yeah I I got blasted on this On the youtube comments on the interview it did Forbes, but I've got it. I'm going to say it again Just look at that key and don't think about it as a logo think about it as a symbol that shows you tiled windows Which is what you get when you press press that button in canone So I think it's actually In seriousness, um, I you know, it would be awesome for there to be a fedora logo somewhere I don't think that button is the place for it because you push that button and you get your overview of your windows You don't get The dora, uh, you get your working environment So it's weird that microsoft decided to make that function be their logo I get why they did they want to make themselves the center of everything. That's a nice instinct, of course but um, I I would rather you know ship some nice fedora stickers or have you know An embossed fedora logo on the back of the hardware if we're going to make if we're going to make changes That's that's what I'd like to see Uh, yeah I've been doing user documentation and I have replaced references to windows key with super key. So I did that That's good to hear But uh, yeah, no, it's a It's a It'll be intriguing to see whether that's something that we're able to do later But right now. Yeah, this is from from manufacturing point of view Actually the same hardware. So Yeah, that's that that's not you think it would be possible for us to get printed not not stuck on the laptop because I realize that's a thing Yeah printed fedora stickers that could come in a sticker sheet that would go with one of these I actually I did wonder whether they could do keys whether you could buy a linux key and you just Try it off and stick out. I don't know if that was possible Then you know, you go go on the Lenovo store and buy your I don't that's just purely my head. By the way, I have not talked to anybody about that. That's a good idea That might be a money. I can just say hundreds of broken keyboards to support Yeah, I suspect this would be people would say go Yeah, I got a phone call. They broke their chisel on their laptop You need to also there's there's a key removal tool, right? You need to also spell the tool with it I mean at the conferences we're used to give away little um Like fedora stickers to stick on that k on your cable. I reckon just uh, we still have them Yeah, yeah I put them on my fingernails too when I'm bored of the So that's an interesting question that we are going to have the powered by fedora stickers on the laptops Yeah, that'd be that'd be more cool than the windows one. Yeah And also it will be so cute Yeah, it would be nice. I did and now on the flip side. I did ask and again I I went through this that ship. I did ask I said there will be no windows sticker on it, right? And the answer was yes, there won't be a windows sticker on it. So, you know Um Yeah, no, I don't know if that's you but it would be cool to have the fedora stick along the fedora fedora systems I'd be happy for even just stickers in the box that people can put on themselves. Um, if we can get that that would be cool Yeah So one of my other questions is, um, you mentioned that you work on the think pad and think station whatever a group A lot of people are asking about lower end hardware and the possibility on that is that Let's say this is wildly successful. Is that ever a possibility that i'll be able to buy a Like a yoga with fedora on it or is that just way out of your scope? I don't know. I don't think it's way out where we're not a biggest team in the world So it's uh, I think we have to start here and see where we go if it's wildly successful I would be surprised if it didn't come up um, I know just just as an aside a lot of users do put minutes on the idea pads and We're with a lot of success, right? And I try then and I've heard of people doing that and usually getting the higher end ones is harder But yeah, and at the moment the moment is yeah at the moment. It's not on a roadmap I can't sit there and say yeah, we have it planned but I think this project's still new enough that we have to See where it goes Is there any influence in the hardware selection or whatever the process by which you tell synaptic? I want an open source Driver for this fingerprint reader. Does that influence the hardware for those other systems as well? Even if we're not officially supporting I I don't know. I don't know how closely the hardware teams Tied in for that I'd be surprised if there wasn't some but Because having common components plus everything, but I don't know the answer. So I guess um, it's okay Given that um, I'm I do a lot of arm related stuff. I'm going to ask the same question about the Lenovo arm laptop whether that would be I think I think I've come across your name on the arm stuff. Your name was given to me as an arm Yeah If we switch if we swap emails before or not, um, I'm not sure I Yeah I Difficult it's not it's not on a roadmap But I personally I had a bit of a pet project going to to see what would be involved. Um, but it was it was The I know I know for arm you need you need some serious support from the BIOS the ACPI stuff. Uh So Yeah, it's I I I I had a look to see what would be involved because I thought it'd be really cool Yeah, not not on the roadmap yet. I It would be nice though. Yeah, so checking my email. You were on the thread. So that's probably why you're seeing my Yeah It would be really nice to Yeah I have another another question for me is is the strategy with the theme but Global or is just not America or have Absolutely, no global's the plan blue shipping. It's we One of the things we're going through right now. I know one of the questions is why why isn't the shipping yet? There's a whole bunch of stuff that has to happen. It is the first time through here. So We're finding out some things but yeah, the plan is global. There's there's some Interesting challenges around their energy certifications. Fusher has its laws There's you know, but the plan is global unless there's a good reason that we can't so and those reasons will be out of our control, right? Um Related to the lower end devices thing I was looking at the pricing for the x1 I I know you don't do pricing. Maybe john can give me a little something Yeah, they're phenomenally expensive right now Is like is it is it expected that that that will come down over the next few months? Is just that the initial launch models are high price models I know it's like a thousand dollars more expensive than the gen seven which surprised me Yeah, uh Yeah, so I don't have enough experience with pricing Listen, john. I don't know if you you want to take that one. It's gonna. Yeah, we I won't touch that No, just from a personal point of view. I've seen it right and yeah the gen sevens just went on sale We get employee discounts and they went on sale and I actually looked it went. Oh No, I don't need one. I'm lucky. Um, but yeah, I mean the price That does but yeah, I I don't have any insight as to how they generate that The value Yep. John are you still there? Yeah, I am and We so the we have special pricing teams in Lenovo that handle handle that aspect So neither mark or I have any direct control or influence over it Um, I can discuss with them and find out whether It's this is a Launch thing and it's going to go down But I won't have any influence over changing it if it does if it's an answer we don't like That's fair. Uh, yeah, I you know, I would love an 800 dollar model. Um, but Yeah, I think if there's any consolation the price is even worse in canada Take that in canada Yeah I think we pour maple syrup on them or something they just don't know I haven't checked the pound a GBP price then because that'll be horrible then Yeah Yeah, he's one of those you kind of ship out well Any other questions So actually just for my point I have a question So can you just introduce me to are you all council members? Is this or is it just everybody in fedora can call into this? I was just kind of intrigued as to how the fedora council works So as I want us to be part of your community. So I figure better learn how it works. That's awesome Yeah, so the fedora council is a body that has It it's somewhat complicated some of us Are hired me as the fedora project leader and marie who is the fedora community action and impact coordinator Or f cake which is a title we came up with because we didn't want community manager because Man it marie doesn't get to manage anything. It's doll just Get right though Management seems like too much control So so we came up with that title and she stuck with it. It is the f cake And then ben is the program manager and he is actually technically an auxiliary Council member his votes if it comes right down to it his votes only count when it comes to program management kind of things But we let him do other things as well Then we also have a number of council members who are working on specific objectives And then a couple elected council members denis is one of our elected council members until I saw on the list of people as well And Then we also have a diversity and inclusion Representative on yona who I don't think made this call, but she is often here And I think that that's the general structure. We've got 18 people on the call right here. So that's more than there are council members We also have some Basically interested and enthused people who are welcome to come join our video calls for a while Yeah, exactly Which which so we try to do things as openly as Transparently as possible and this will also go on, you know, youtube and be tweeted around so other people can follow later Um, we used to long in the dawn of time have a much more formal meeting process where we had only council members able to Speak in the in the text meetings and so on and we've mostly abandoned that in Favor of a general free-for-all which usually works every now and then we have to ask somebody nicely to Chill out a little bit, but we haven't actually had a real problem with that. So we go for that wider discussion Thank you. Sure. That was a great question Uh, anything else to mark or or me from anybody? All right. Um, thank you all for joining. Um, next month I've Asked but I don't think I got a response back because I literally was sending this as I started the meeting For the new modularity team to present on what's going on there. So The modularity project has been Move to the same team that does dnf and rpm. And so they're working on what the next generation of that is They did a survey and they had some results. So hopefully they will be able to present that to us That'll be our next topic And I will see some of you there some of you for whom that is not interesting. That's fine We've got lots of different meetings about different things. Uh, thank you again mark and john for joining us and if Goodbye