 Hi, my name is Sandy Baird. I'm a citizen activist. I guess that's the best way to describe me. I'm also an attorney and I'm here with our monthly show today. I'm with city counselor Ali Dieng who is Leaving the city council. I regret that greatly in March, but he's here to talk about the subject of Senegal Senegal is a country in Africa And that is presently I guess undergoing some disturbances like many of the nations in Africa right now particularly in French West what used to be called French West Africa, right? Yes, and so Ali is an expert I believe on Africa because you were born there, right? And you were born in what country in Mauritania and I grew up in Senegal. Okay, so you grew up in Senegal Okay, so maybe we can show first to our viewers where Senegal is where Mauritania is and talk a little bit about Specifically Senegal. Okay, wonderful. So probably as you can see in here You can see Senegal is right here a very small tiny country Mauritania is on north of Senegal right, but within Senegal there is a small country named Gambia and In the south we have two countries Guinea-Bissau and Guinea-Conakry. We also Senegal also has border with with Mali Mali, and you are from Mauritania Mauritania born there and grew up in Senegal, but my University study took place in Mauritania. So I studied in both yes in both in both countries. Yeah, really you studied in both countries Yes elementary in Senegal and University in Mauritania. Yes. Okay, well, can I ask one question before I go on? What do you mean Gambia is within Senegal? So Gambia is a tiny little country It is basically Inside Senegal sometimes you cannot even see it if the map is not enlarged a little bit if the map is very small But it is a sovereign country with their own Constitution their own the president and their own way of doing business, right? Gambia and Senegal Share a lot of things right they share culture. They share Religion right they share You know the food the recipes they share a lot of stuff and also many Languages that are spoken in Senegal are also spoken in Gambia the ethnicities are almost the same because if you go south of Senegal You cannot go to south of Senegal without going through Gambia Or you have to skip and go around very long time, right? So basically it's two Different countries, but the culture the system of doing things is almost the same sector with one exception, right? Yes, and what is that exception the exception is basically the Senegalese people their official language is French While the Gambian people their official language is English. Is there an explanation as to how that happened why one? Part of that that region is French speaking and the other English speaking. Yes, I mean until the early 60s, right? All of the African countries were under colonization regime of Europe Of Europe. Yes, for example French They colonize Senegal they colonize Mali they colonize Mauritania, but the English right England colonize Gambia Yep, and you go to Guinea-Bissau. They were colonized by the Portuguese the Portuguese Even though it's it like all in the same region all in the same region, but different colonization systems So who created the borders? The borders were created by exactly those color columns in 1944. I think it's when they just considered Africa as like a Cake a cake. Yes, basically, and then you see all of these borders was created by People of Europe during colonization Europe. Exactly. Why people generally exactly, okay Yes, but also though. I mean, I think the reason I'm asking is so few Americans know anything about any of this. Yes I mean, yes, I mean there are a couple people here Those who studied African study Understand the historical perspective from slavery to colonization to now independence people some people have but you're right The majority of the population of the United States Don't have a better understanding of what Africa is and some of them even just think that Africa is a Country and not a really So America's don't it appears to me that America's known nothing about the fact that after all of Africa was basically conquered by the European countries and Therefore the borders were drawn also a lot by those colonial powers in Europe. Correct. It's correct. Yes, including at the Congress of Berlin In the 19th century, right? Yes, when Africa was sort of divided up for the benefit. Yes Yes, exactly the conference of Berlin. I think it was precisely in 1944 No, I think it was in the 19th century, but I might be right in 1844. Yeah, but at the same time You know African people really deeply Participated in almost all the wars. Yes, for example of Europe. Yes, like World War one World War two And you know, they were also called the Tirayir Senegal the Senegalese Shooters, they are African who are taken by the French Regime they train them into military to Fight force for this which you say the Senegalese Wanted to fight for the French. No, I mean basically it was if you are colonized You are under the regime of the country who colonize you everything they do resources the government is all run by them Right and therefore if I am in a war. Yes I will be sure to make sure that my my ranks the military will have access to food will have access Also to personnel so they took some of the Senegalese African people exactly to go fight for the liberation of France Against there is one country that was not colonized correct in Africa, and that was Ethiopia. I heard yes Ethiopia has not been colonized because they used to have a regime Monarch regime, you know Islas Islas I believe is his name. He was a very good and respected Leader and I don't highly salacious. Yes, exactly Yes, they were not but many of the other country were colonized, but now Italians tried to yes Yeah, there is also one country who has like a deep relation with the United States of America, which is Liberia yes, there is a history into it because Liberia Was basically that created it's it's not far. It's like right here It's like not far from Ghana to go. Okay. It's it's basically around somewhere around here, right right here Right, it has a border with Sierra Leone and Cote d'Ivoire historically You know the United States of America the government after the slavery was abolished, right? There maybe before even yes There were there were like a call for if the former slaves wanted to return to Africa Now there is a land for them to go back and and return to and many of them were like Descendant of slaves from the United States of America who choose to return to Liberia and and and that still is the case Liberia has a close relationship with the United States still Liberia I believe so. I believe so Liberia Is a delivery democratic country still, you know, they all have their problems But I think it would be very important for us to focus on West Africa a little bit today. Yes and talk a little bit about what's happening in Senegal, for example, please That would be great. So like I stated earlier in 1960 precisely The African countries started to gain their independence from their respective colonized countries, right? Senegal took with the fight. I mean they had to fight for that. I mean I've from in some cases But in most cases it was given really, you know There were not a lot. Yes. People were were wanting to to be free It was given to them. They did not fight for it for example, but democratically in a way in 1960s Senegal received its independence from France. Yes agreed. Yes to to to to move out And for the Senegalese people to organize their elections choose their president and strengthen their local Violence without violence. Okay, even if there were it was not significant significant It was just few right and in 1960. So Senegal is a republic republic. Yep of Senegal. Okay. Yeah 1960 then The first the first president of Senegal was Leopold Sardar Senghor. Senghor. Senghor. He like a poet a writer a very wise man very smart person To you know manage who really understood the the French language the French culture and I think Senghor's first wife was a white French woman and Then Senghor was the first president of Senegal from 1960 to to the early 80s 1981 right And then another president called Abdul Juf became president in 1981 until 2002 right yeah very long time and then from 2002 to 2012 right President Makisal the current president took office in 2012 after Abdul I ward Right. So basically Senghor Abdul Juf Abdul I ward and then currently Makisal currently. Yes. He's still there. He's still the current president He's still a rep. Yeah Republic Makisal was also a member of the Abdul I ward the government as a minister right Minister of energy, I believe I think he also became a first minister, right and They they in one point in 2012 They were organized elections Abdul I ward the cat could no longer run for office anymore So Makisal created a coalition in order to take the reign of the country and he was successful And from there he's still the current president. But now what is interesting about all of this is? Starting in 2020 2021 There were a question whether or not Makisal could gain a third term What does it say in the Constitution? It's constitution. It was a little bit if it's a little bit Because the Constitution was changed by Makisal to say that now as we move forward any president could have Two terms of seven years two terms of seven years Yes, but during that time the Constitution was also changed a little bit And now the question whether or not Makisal will continue to be President right when those two terms exactly does start I think they were that's exactly when the turmoil started many people were saying he is not going to be you seek a Re-elections the term and I think in 2020 there were a lot of protests for for him For him. No in in Senegal for him to not seek reelection, right? Hundreds of people are arrested and are still arrested the biggest arrested for protesting for this Lot of protests or you have said something wrong on TV You know basically targeting the current government, you know, they were arrested some activists basically and one of the opponent of Makisal Usman Sonko, right? He's still being held in in in in in captivity right now by the Senegalese government Now in one point Makisal decided to not seek reelection He made a public announcement that he is not going to be a candidate for the When did he do that he did it like a couple months ago, okay, right? And then you know everybody the opinion international opinion everybody was excited the United States that he was not going to because To make sure that the country becomes safe and Stable and for the betterment of the Senegalese people it was good for Makisal to leave and not seek a third term Why just constitutionally you mean which he decided to do yeah, right? He decided to not seek us a third term Okay, and you know everybody was happy and everybody was gearing up to The election which was going to take place actually on the 25th of February Right like next week was exactly when the election was supposed to take place They identified the 10. I believe candidates Who were vetted and for those candidates to start to do the campaigning and stuff like that? But on February 7 Makisal came out and decided to post upon the elections Because there are some issues around the constitutional advisory that the Yeah, the cause a constitutional. That's how they call them. It's just It's a seven member appointed Jurists appointed by the president who are safeguarding basically the the the constitution of the country and Basically the it's a branch of the government right the judicial system They judge the governor that the non judges of the United States for example. So the cause a constitutional From the perspective of Makisal their integrity was breached Because they did not allow one candidate to go through the elections. They refuse for him to go Why because that person had dual citizenship? Ah French and also Senegal so they people said he should not run He should not run because he had dual citizenship with the French with the French people He did not renounce to his citizenship with the French people. So therefore He cannot run. Well, it's that in the constitution. It's in it's in the constitution No one you have to remove you have to recuse Yourself from any nationality. Yep in order for you to become a candidate of Senegal Okay, yeah, so you can be both, but you can't be a candidate having both Citizenship on your on your shoulders. So and I think things started to continue and then The cause a constitutional vetted all the candidates, right? But it's afterward they identified that actually they were another candidate who had Dual citizenship with French to but was allowed to participate So I think the Senegalese people were a little bit Confused but from my perspective This situation now is is is resolved. It is it is resolved in a fact that they identify when exactly The postponement of these elections that was supposed to take place next week when it was going to take place And they identified December 15 next year next year of this year. Okay, basically at the end of the year I'm away. Yes couple. I mean, yeah, nine months from now ten months from now And what about these dual citizens? Yeah, and one of those I mean, I think now The question was whether or not the consulate constitutional Integrity was bridge and Makisal decided to postpone the election and move them Like further in order for people to investigate who had better vet the candidate that are currently seeking to be the next president of the United States and also to end up cigarette whether or not the integrity of the Juris the consulate constitutional was bridge So basically it's just to make sure that everyone is safe and also once we identified This is a candidate who won the election Uh-huh that no one else would try to protest it because these elections are fair and they are also secured. Yeah However, I so there is there a kind of a threat to the republic what's going on because the only thing I know about it It was from Some Brief report. I think on Amy Goodman on democracy now saying that Senegal has been a Peaceful country and that is this a threat to that piece or what? Yeah, good question It seems like a bit of a constitutional problem Yes, yes, and I think Senegal Amy Goodman and anyone who's saying that Senegal is a peaceful Country is a democratic country is truth. It's true Because Senegal since the 60s They are one of the few countries in Africa who never had a coup Never like yeah a presidential coup like the military is not involved in How would the country is being run and everywhere else in Africa appears to be? Yes, most most them Mauritania had that You know Burkina Faso currently just had it. Yes, Mali many many many You know Gabon many African countries even if it's not now in the past they had some level of coup data, right? meaning that the government was taken over by an unelective Force yes, mostly the military. That's what the coup coup means But people are portraying the current situation of Senegal. This is still a coup, but it is Constitutional coup. What does that mean? Basically the president people did not use force to take back the country But they use maneuvering in order to still stay in power and move the elections a little bit further Okay, so who stayed in power then basically the current president will stay in power until the new elections are there So that's why they characterizing it as But was done with our arms without on but you know, there are some turmoil though In the country and you know, that's the turmoil is basically there are a couple of protests Yeah, you know in in in Senegal on the streets Right some kids and also interaction between the population and the the police for example But that is not out of the scale is very small. It's at a very small scale now now because one You know business as usual people wake up businesses are open, right? The market is full of people people going to school people going to the hospital And there is no curfew starting 9 p.m. Or 10 p.m. Business as usual Senegal is still booming is still striving, right? But at the same time people are concerned whether or not it's a legitimate for the current president to move remove this and also To you know Self-proclaim himself as the president Exactly as we move forward while this investigation is being unfolded. What's the investigation? The investigation is basically the there is a commission that will be investigating whether or not The integrity of the conseh constitution has been preached or not Uh-huh, right whether every all the candidates are vetted and also who are the right candidates that will be Seeking the voters approval to all the current president Do you suppose be allowed to be in the elections in December? I mean he is not he initially said he's not going to be a Candidate and just he is postponing this election in making sure that this investigation takes place From my perspective, I think he is smart enough, and I think He has done great job Yeah, like you know, I mean I think he modernized the country What do you mean by that modernized like in terms of infrastructures, right in terms of Safety in terms of economic development in terms of poverty I mean it's a continuous work that needs to be done by each and every single African country and he has done his part, right? But still people are struggling there like anywhere like in America Yes, people are struggling all the time, but I think the Senegalese people also do not wait They don't wait for the government to Support them of how to leave the government just have the power to make things better in order for people to safely You know interact with the economy, right, you know agriculture Industry, you know so many different sectors so that the government need to ensure that Everything is stable in the country in order for people to operate their business as well So what you're saying to our audience and to me that Senegal has developed up to recently as a Democratic country or a country that has elections, correct? Yeah, and that is doing well Mm-hmm, and that this is a constitutional crisis Okay, so and that basically you're saying that this president do you agree that he Has done this postponed elections and stayed in power. What do you really think? Well, you know I think as an elected official before I pronounce myself about what I think I need to get all the facts Yeah, okay. Do you have these think you do have all the I mean I hear Constitutionally whether or not that's that's that's accurate that Makisal can can can can stay right can can move And I think what I have heard and from scholars is basically He needed to advise to give his advice how to proceed when there are allegations that The consulate constitutional integrity has been rich, but it was not for him to say, okay Since it's a bridge now. I am going to become the president until you guys organize new elections, right? From my perspective that and for my perspective, he could have just just just easily step out from the position and maybe put there the The general secretary of the army for example, did you say okay? You are the entering president and I'm the army Yes And the army and I think it will be also important for me to talk about here as you can see here I have both military. I have both the flag of Senegal and also of the United States, right? because the state of my state right here has a strong 15 years military relationship between the state of Senegal and The state of Vermont the state of Vermont. Yes, what do you mean by that the Vermont National Guard? Yeah, so they're in Senegal. They are they have a military partnership with the army of Senegal How does that work? It happened 15 years ago and the way it in which it works is for example The guards they go there and they train the Senegalese army about how to diffuse bombs and also how to provide military quick Surgeries basically they provide training and support for the Senegalese army and also for the Senegalese army I think also there is this component of selling each other some Arms arms right arm dealing. I think there is that that component and also how do we? Mitigate climate change and I think this military partnership is is is just great. I love you. I respect it Yes, because I don't understand it exactly between a state of Vermont How does that work? I suppose it has the blessings of our national government too, of course Of course, and I think it's at our national guard. It's the Vermont National Guard amongst any other State National Guard. There are these military partnership. They exist in so many different countries It does they do for example the Vermont National Guard the partnership that they have is not only with Senegal They have one with Macedonia. They have one with Austria They have three different military partnership with three different countries around the globe I'm surprised. Yeah, and it's it's great. It's great. I met the I met both Former two president of Senegal. I was Abdul Iwad when he was here, right? I met with current president Makisal when he was also here Because they work to strengthen this partnership that exists between the state of Vermont and Republic of Senegal around military. So why does Senegal need a military at all? I mean, it's any country will need to have their own military. So Costa Rica. Yes. Yes. Yes Costa Rica is maybe a branch of the United States or something But any sovereign country has you know have the right to develop a military. No, they have the right to Obviously, yes, and you know if you share border with all the countries Yes, you need to protect your borders from insurgents and just for the safety and well-being of your population Yeah, does that mean then that the government or the government of Vermont at least approves or supports the current government? Also of Senegal. Okay. So I think it will be good also to make the distinction between State partnership. Yes. And also military partnership. Okay. In this in this case It's just military partnership and I think the two militaries of the two countries are working together in sharing resources and Training each other and things like all those lines. Yeah, but the state of Vermont. I don't think they Involved and also there's actually a bill currently at the state house called the S30 Yes, right as S30 is for the state of Vermont to identify four Different state around the nation where they can build relationships state relationships military or state like I think we have a state relationship is Japan Right, but what about in? Russia I don't we have some kind of a relationship with a part of Russia I think really or something. I think the city of Burlington has a yes. Yes a sister city Yes, but I also think under Madeleine Cuny and that they may have developed some kind of a state relation With part of Russia Karelia or something. Yeah, but that's something to be examined. Yes. Yes, and S30 is currently being You know debated. There are testimonies and I testified for the importance of building the state partnership Between Senegal and Vermont and all this military partnership that already exists that's built on that To the level of not military, but does that mean that we would Vermont might get involved in their domestic politics in any way No, I from my perspective. No, it's just about cooperation agreements in terms of economic development cultural development, you know Culture education those type of things like people to people hope so but not getting involved I also weren't you involved in trying to create a sister city. Yes. Thank you for saying that And I think we are making great development for it chess east what city and chess east of Senegal Uh-huh and the city of Burlington and we have other sister cities We have older with Bethlehem and Arad we have them in Palestine. Yes, Arad in Israel. Yes Yes, and with with La Fleur, France and Verses I think yes because the state of Vermont or the city of Burlington has never had a sister City with an African country and now we need one I believe need one and I think we're making headway And I believe that the resolution at the resolution will be introduced on March 11. Oh, yeah to have a sister city and I'll go. Exactly. Of course I'm a strong supporter. You are part of the committee the local committee here. I am that will work in strengthening Yes, you and I think Jared Carter would be good Adam. I'm banger And maybe we'll do a whole visit to Senegal wonderful, right? I don't know if you have time Yeah, okay I think we're probably a little bit out of time But I thank you for giving Americans much needed education about Africa and in particularly in particular Senegal, so thank you very much Ali, and maybe we'll see you again and certainly on the 11th, right? Okay, thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you